That someone was me, so I better justify myself by posting someone.

Some things I mentioned earlier:

It must be nice for the Houston GM to treat good closers as cups of coffee as he seemingly has endless access.

Where does everyone think he'll sign after this year? Any chance houston brings him back?

The previous, mini Beltran thread:

#1986211 Posted 06/24/2004 09:32 PM by Pistol:

Hijack - apparently Beltran is going to Houston and Dotel is going to Oakland.

#1986212 Posted 06/24/2004 09:36 PM by Jobu:

apparently Beltran is going to Houston and Dotel is going to Oakland.

far out man. I think it deserves its own thread.

#1986213 Posted 06/24/2004 09:37 PM by Nolan:

I just about that Beltran deal on yahoo Sports, but there was two articles there and one said the deal was completed and the other said the deal was off b/c Oakland and KC couldn't agree on a prospect in the trade

...I'm not sure which one was right

#1986214 Posted 06/24/2004 09:40 PM by Jobu:

From what I'm reading at MLB.Com Oakland sent minor leaugers Mike Wood (RHP) and Mark Teahen (3rd) to KC. I dont know who those people are, but I'm sure someone from this fine site can elaborate.

#1986215 Posted 06/24/2004 09:43 PM by Nolan:

Just read that the trade fell through b/c KC wanted Jairo Garcia and not Wood from OAK. COMN

#1986216 Posted 06/24/2004 09:44 PM by Nolan:

Sweet, never done that COMN thing before and it worked...woohoo!

#1986217 Posted 06/24/2004 09:48 PM by Jobu:

Does that mean KC is "stuck" with Dotel? Must be nice to be the GM in Houston. "Meh... I dont need Wagner, I got Dotel" "Meh... I dont need Dotel, I got Lidge".... meanwhile JP would kill for one of these guys.

#1986218 Posted 06/24/2004 09:50 PM by Kristian:

I think the trade is now a go with Wood in it though its not confirmed yet. Dotel should fit in quite nicely on the A's. KC did well if they get Buck, Teahen and Wood.

#1986219 Posted 06/24/2004 10:16 PM by Mick:

From Lee Sinins:

The Royals traded CF Carlos Beltran to the Astros in a 3 team trade. The A's get P Octavio Dotel from the Astros. The Royals get 3B Mark Teahen and P Mike Wood from the A's and C Joe Buck from the Astros.

#1986220 Posted 06/24/2004 10:22 PM by Mick:

And I have posted the separate thread, as suggested. Please feel free to repeat or expound upon your comments there.

There goes Jason Lane's starting OF job.

It seems optimistic of Houston to think that they can win it all this year, but you never know.

Like many other people, I am assuming Beltran will be in pinstripes next year.

Pinstripes would be my bet as well (unfortunatly).

What I dont get is that KC also sent cash to Oakland. I thought the whole point is that KC is strapped for cash.

I know Houston sent $4M the Mets way in the Hidalgo deal, but even with the addition of Beltran, they seem to have reduced payroll

Hoorah! Don't be surprised if Beltran is dealt again, a la the Marlins when they traded Piazza. If Carlos could find his way to the A's, wooooooooooooooooooooooooohooooooooooooooooo!

Good gamble for Houston. They still have a pair of relievers who can finish games, and Dotel is expendable if you're getting Beltran in return.

My AL-only roto squad, meanwhile, is sunk. Coach knows the extent of my despair; he's also in that league.

At least KC new for sure Carlos wasn't comming back at the end of the year and looked for a good trade. "Problem" with our Carlos we MIGHT be able to bring him back which makes decisions much harder for JP.

Delgado won't command nearly as much as Beltran on the trade market. Beltran is younger, injury-free, can run, play better defense (at a more critical position), and is having a much better season. He also makes about half of Delgado's salary.

Strange as it may seem--given Delgado's stellar career to date--I don't think the Jays will get much for Delgado in a trade. If JP trades Carlos, it will be mainly a salary dump. As a Jays fan, I hope this isn't the case, but I think this is the reality.

As a Jays fan, I hope that Carlos and JP can pull off a Ponson. Trade Carlos away for good OF/off the bench guy, buy him back at a reasonable price in the off season with a better team surrounding him.

Now that the Astros have no room for Jason Lane do they keep as insurance this year and let him start next year or could he be had in a trade...hmmm maybe JP needs to call Hunsicker :)

I think LAne is probably a better a player than Biggio (although Biggio is having a pretty good year), but the Astros will stick with Biggio out of loyalty, at least I would think so

Like many other people, I am assuming Beltran will be in pinstripes next year.

That's what they said about Andy Pettitte, and where's he now?

This seems to be a good trade for all involved. Sometimes when Beane inserts himself into deals, people get confused and get totally screwed. This time around, it seems fairly even. Sometimes it helps to look at things from each team's perspective.

KC trades Beltran for Teahen, Buck, and Wood
Oakland trades Wood and Teahen for Dotel
Houston trades Buck and Dotel for Beltran

KC got pretty good return for what was essentially a rent-a-player. Both Buck and Teahen are decent prospects. Wood is a little fringy (finesse righty) but has been performing well this year at AAA.

Oakland trades yet another 3B prospect they don't need to get some badly needed depth in their bullpen.

Houston possibly got the worst of the deal. They gave up a great bullpen arm and their future catcher in order to try and win now. Their big problem is that they don't have all that much catching depth in their organization, and Buck was supposed to be the future.

Wow, and only 2 days after I woke up muttering 'must pick up DeJesus off the waiver wire.'

Jacko's analysis is a carbon copy of what I would have written if he hadn't done it for me. Bang-on.

I agree that this deal seems to work for all three teams, but I think that Houston didn't get the worse end of it, or if they did it's pretty undetectable. If you're in Hunsicker's shoes, this maybe your best opportunity to win for a number of years with Clemens pitching as he is and Biggio having his last good season, in addition to Bagwell and Kent getting quite old. To sit on that sort of talent in an open race in the Central and not aim to improve it would be quite dissapointing for Houston fans. It would be a shame to let that all go to waste by losing the Central by a game or two, especially when come playoff time they could send a rotation of Rocket, Oswalt, Pettitte and Miller out there.

Yes Dotel is a very good reliever, but Houston's bullpen is reasonably strong and Lidge looks like he can become a very capable closer. It will hurt next year when Dotel is in green and gold (I assume, not sure of his contract situation) and Beltran is in pinstripes, but you have to give up quality to get quality.

While Houston may regret giving up Buck if they continue to run out Brad Ausmus until he's arthiscopic and in need of a hip replacement, I'm not convinced Buck is a great prospect. He's tall for a catcher (6'3) and from what I've read he's not particularly adept behind the plate, especially at throwing. He had a really good year in 2001, but the last few years he's not had offensive numbers that make you think he's going to be any sort of star.

To compare, he put up a line of .263/.311/.422 at Round Rock in his first trip at AA. Kevin Cash hit .277/.381/.469 in his first trip at AA. Albeit Cash was 2 years older, but Buck's numbers weren't that great at AA, and in AAA last year .255/.301/.358. He may be finding his stroke at age 24 as he's hitting .300/.368/.507, but Cash was hitting in Syracuse towards the end, too.

I've heard Buck had injury problems in 2003, so that could help explain his abysmal numbers and he's a better hitter than Brad Ausmus right now. However, his star has lost a lot of its shine from a few years ago, especially if he's a liability defensively behind the plate. If I were Houston with their current ballclub, I wouldn't let him stand in the way of landing me Beltran.

Dotel is eligible for arb after this year, I believe, and the A's have his rights until the end of 2005.

Of all the parks to go to for a CF; midseason, no less. Is there any chance they'll put Beltran in a corner spot for home games until he gets some practice sessions in? I can't imagine he's too keen on risking injury with free-agency pending.

We all know that coverage of baseball up here is poor, but tonight just took the cake. This trade, probably the biggest of the season, was mentioned for about 5 seconds on Sportsnetnews, and it didn't even get mentioned once on Sportscentre!!! I mean c'mon, do we really need to spend another 5 minutes hearing about Todd Bertuzzi? Do we need a piece on how the Maple Leafs are drafting 90th overall and "might trade up... but might not." I love hockey, more than I'll ever love any other sport, but this is absolutely ridiculous. Give us some baseball!

I mean c'mon, do we really need to spend another 5 minutes hearing about Todd Bertuzzi? Do we need a piece on how the Maple Leafs are drafting 90th overall and "might trade up... but might not."

Tonight was also NBA draft night. The Raptors made what most would categorize as the first "surprise" pick of the draft. There was also lots of intrigue in terms of potential movement of star players (McGrady, Shaq).

But as the good Dr. Payne points out, hockey rules the airwaves.

*sigh*.

As for the Beltran deal, I think KC made out very well. Two good prospects and one decent one seems like a great return in this era of "what can you get for the star player whose salary is about to explode".

It always hurts giving up nice future pieces, but I would hope that when the Jays are finally in a position to contend (Halladay, McGowan, Bush etc. in 2007!), ownership has the cojones to do something like this. Houston fans must be excited.

I agree with the general sense that the trade makes sense for all teams.

As for Houston, I don't think they got the short end of anything. For all Dotel's awesomeness, he's only awesome for 100 innings, tops. He's thrown a bunch of those already, so the 'stros are really only giving up about 60 innings of excellent relief. Which they'll replace with 60 innings of pretty good relief.

More analytically, Dotel's given the Astros 6.6 runs above replacement so far this season. PECOTA projects him for 24.5, so let's just accept that his various ups and downs from now till season end will leave him there. That's 18 runs the Astros give up.

Picking up the best player on this year's trade market for the cost of a catching prospect and, maximally, about 20 runs of pitching? Yes, please.

Which isn't to knock the A's, who traded away two players for whom they had no use whatsoever.

The best thing about the trade, by the way, is that the Astros have another "Killer B". Bagwell, Berkman, Biggio, and Beltran.

Beane wins in a landslide...Beltran and Teahen both overrated and the A's get some cash.

Here's hoping Houston now wants Adams and Zaun from us...

What I dont get is that KC also sent cash to Oakland. I thought the whole point is that KC is strapped for cash.

The Royals saved about $3-4 million in the deal just by not having to pay Beltran the rest of the year and plugging in a min salary player.

Oakland got Dotel while barely adding any salary.

Houston didn't have to give up much to get Beltran because they were able to take on salary.

Jobu said, Must be nice to be the GM in Houston. "Meh... I dont need Wagner, I got Dotel" "Meh... I dont need Dotel, I got Lidge".... meanwhile JP would kill for one of these guys.

Sure, but as this is happening, the rest of the guys keep marching up the depth chart too. Lidge moves up, and Gallo moves up behind him, and Weathers moves up behind him, and now suddenly you have Chad Harville's 5.46 career ERA appearing in close games in the seventh inning. And then Miceli will get hurt (Miceli always gets hurt), and now Kirk Bullinger's in a more crucial role, and you're asking Brandon Backe and Tony Fiore to come up and get outs for you. And now the pen's not an asset any more; then if Gallo turns into a pumpkin (as well he might) you don't even have a lefthander. And I don't mean in Houston; the Astros don't even have a lefty reliever at Triple-A.

The Jays bullpen wasn't always bad; the 2001 bullpen was very good, with Koch as the anchor on a terrific setup staff of Escobar, Quantrill, Borbon, Plesac, File (and Frascatore, who was fine until he was sent away). We all know what happened; specific decisions were made to fill specific holes, guys inevitably were lost, and in two years flat we were left with last year's ungodly mess. File got hurt; Frascatore was released (I think not to trigger a bonus clause); Koch was traded to fill an organizational hole at third; Quantrill was punted with Izturis to get a starter to plug another hole; Borbon was traded; Plesac was traded (in a challenge deal) for Politte; Escobar was shifted to the rotation.

So by 2003, the pen was a mess because the low-cost alternatives that each time were intended to keep the pen humming, didn't work out.

I don't like the trade at all from Houston's perspective. Assuming that the 'Stros have the good sense to play Beltran in center, there will be substantial defensive improvement, as well as some offensive improvement. The bullpen though is very thin, and with Jimy Williams managing them, I have no confidence that they simply will not explode.

On the other hand, I have nothing but admiration for Beane's draft and this move. It looks to me like the A's will be perennial contenders over the next 6 or 7 years.

Kansas City also did well.

I don't mean to start out of nowhere trade speculation - but with Jason Lane not starting again and the Astros thin on catching, and with Kevin Cash the type of catcher Jimy Williams likes to run out - is a Lane for Cash trade all that far-fetched - it would certainly make losing the Cat more palatable

Like many other people, I am assuming Beltran will be in pinstripes next year.

Do the 'Stros still wear pinstripes?

Is a Lane for Cash trade all that far-fetched - it would certainly make losing the Cat more palatable

It's not out of the question. Houston does have a very promising catching prospect named Hector Gimenez, with a bullet arm and a power bat -- not unlike Guillermo Quiroz. But he's also 21, he's got a 682 OPS in Double-A, and he's at least two years away from the Show. Houston could use a catcher. I like Lane a great deal and would be happy to see him in Toronto, but the Jays are actually pretty set in the outfield, with Wells and Rios already locked in and Gabe Gross edging closer to .300 at Syracuse. I wouldn't say no to Lane, but he might be more helpful in bringing in an established starter, which is what the Jays need more for 2005. And the Astros would very likely ask for another prospect in addition to Cash. Nice to speculate on, though.

I wouldn't say no to Lane, but he might be more helpful in bringing in an established starter, which is what the Jays need more for 2005. And the Astros would very likely ask for another prospect in addition to Cash. Nice to speculate on, though.

Jason Lane bats righthanded, and the Jays lineup has been screaming for a decent righthanded outfield bat since mid-April. If I were JP, I would pull the trigger on this in a second. Though Cash needs to get on a bit of a hot streak before Houston would consider doing this deal.

Unfortunatley, there's a rumour going around that Urbina is on his way to the Astros. Lane almost certainly would be involved in that deal...

Lane is one of those rare "throws left, bats right" players...

Along with the Rickey...

The big thing that would derail this trade idea, of course, is that even the Astros must recognize that the Craig Biggio Experiment in the outfield has to end very soon. They ought to hang on to Lane this year, cut Biggio in the off-season and install Lane in the outfield for 2005. If they can't re-sign Beltran, which seems very likely, then the need for a capable outfielder becomes even more apparent.

Houston's going for the World Series right now, and really, you don't get there by dealing away your only young bat for a light-hitting catcher of the future. Now, if Andy Pettitte can't stay healthy, would they trade Lane for Ted Lilly, Frank Catalanotto and Cash? Maybe.

I can't believe they'd do this, but I read one report speculating that instead of benching/trading Lane the 'Stros would move Biggio back to 2B and shift Jeff Kent to 3B because Morgan Ensberg has been so disappointing.

I don't know; that would considerably weaken two positions in the infield. Biggio was moved to CF not so much due to Kent's arrival as becasue his defensive abilities there had declined significantly. Meanwhile, Kent's lack of accuracy on his throws, his defensive weak suit, isn't problematic at second but would be disastrous at third; he was a terrible third baseman when he was younger. Ensberg's not bad at third.

Given that this is Biggio's opportunity to move to left field where his defense would probably be less disastrous, I would hope (for my Astros-for-the-WS-picking sake) that Houston would continue to prop up Ensberg at third (both this year and for their careers, there's a minimal offensive difference between Land and Ensberg) and hope he can start hitting for power.

Just to clarify something: the cash that KC sent to Oakland was actually from Houston. They just passed it along with Dotel.

Cash, Dotel, and a top prospect for the right to pay even more cash for the very good but overrated Carlos Beltran? Eek. In my eyes, the deal just got much worse for Houston.

Some interesting speculation in one of the local Texas papers today ... and excuse me if this screams "White Jays" at anyone.

In dealing Hidalgo to the Mets, apparently the 'stros (with Lane in the OF) had the only all-white lineup in the major leagues. And the Latino community in Houston -- which is sizeable -- was particularly honked off by that.

Voila ... Carlos Beltran.

A little far-fetched, but interesting to consider.

Voila ... Carlos Beltran.

A little far-fetched, but interesting to consider.

But then they had to give up Dotel to make the deal, so they got even... ummmm... "lighter", I guess, overall?

One would like to think such considerations don't come into play when players are being evaluated. The majority of that all-white lineup are players developed within the organization or who have spent all of their MLB careers there (Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Ensberg, Everett, Lane, Wade Miller, Roy Oswalt), so they can't really be accused of targeting white players as acquistions.

Unless, that is, the fans of the team (regardless of said fans' ethnicity) would rather have, say, Fernando Vina, Kelvim Escobar, and Miguel Batista on the roster instead of Jeff Kent, Roger Clemens, and Andy Pettitte?

It's definitely a weird coincidence, but unless there's some hard evidence (a la Marge Schott) I'd be inclined to believe it's a fluke.

was particularly honked off by that

Given the topic, I like that!

Kansas got no one. Oakland got a solid bullpin player. Houston got a franchise player.

blah,blah,blah