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Warning: Rant Ahead.

This one might get me thrown right out of the ZLC.

Although Coach said that he was expecting a full report from the Bronx, there really isn't too much to say in terms of who "looked good" on the Jays, since no one did. As far as the inside scoop of what's going on in Yankee Stadium, most observations are predictable; the Jays' adoption of their alternate caps was subject to ridicule, Godzilla is a huge fan favourite, and beer is $7.50 (all figures U.S.)

Mike Mussina's ability to spot the location of both his fastball and his changeup was incredible last night. He had that rare combination of aggressiveness and precision that enabled him to paint the black in a way that challenged hitters, rather than nibble at them. Doc had the big hook going, but simply got outpitched. Prior to Nick Johnson's double off a tired Halladay, Doc had only surrendered singles save the Posada solo shot.

OK, on to my rant. I support J.P. and Tosca, but there are three things that really bothered me about last night's game. I'll try my utmost to keep my words within the BB "fair criticism" guidelines.

1. Kitten in the Outfield

Cat got on base, as always, but he is not a big-league rightfielder. In fact, I don't know if I could confidently identify a minor league in which Frank Catalanotto would be considered a solid defensive RF. He gets very poor jumps and reads on fly balls and line drives. And his arm...oh, his arm. His four-hopper to the cutoff man as Bernie Williams managed to both do his taxes (just in time!) and score from second on a Ventura single was truly a thing to behold. It's not Cat's fault, of course; he's a 2B born and raised, both by grooming and by physique. I concede that Cat's RF defence has not yet cost the Jays a game. But one day, it will.

2. Asleep at the Wheel

The eighth inning was a disaster from a managerial standpoint, as far as I'm concerned. Here's the scene: After Hinske's one-out single (more on that in Rant 3), Greg Myers added a single after a real battle with Mussina. O-Dawg comes to the plate, and Mussina misses badly with Balls 1 and 2. Nobody's in the bullpen, and Mussina looks tired for the first time all game. Sounds like a surefire "take" sign, doesn't it?

Nope. Hudson swings away, and fouls back a high-and-away fastball. Ultimately, Hudson worked a walk in the AB, but why wasn't the coaching staff alert? Where was the premium on patience at the plate?

Next up is Mike Bordick -- bases loaded, one out. Fine, Bordick's a .290 hitter lifetime against Mike Mussina. But today, Moose has been keeping the ball down all game, and Bordick's 0-for-2 with two groundouts. Remember, it's the eighth inning; the Jays don't need to go for broke here, but a run or two might force the shaky (and tired) bullpen into action. The ONE thing a team can't afford with bases loaded, one out, eighth inning, is a routine or sharply hit ground ball.

It's easy to second-guess. But here are the questions I was considering while first-guessing last night.

a) Is Mike Bordick really the available guy most likely to avoid an inning-ending double-play groundout?
b) What's the player-development purpose of letting Bordick (rather than the more powerful Woodward) hit for himself?
c) Why did we call up Reed Johnson if he isn't going to be used right here and now?
d) And what about Tom Wilson?

The rest, as they say, is history. Whatever Tosca's reasons were for leaving in Bordick, I sure hope "resignation to defeat" wasn't one of them.

3. The Red Light Blues

Rewind a couple of minutes. Eric Hinske comes through with a one-out single in the eighth. Even though Hinske was 13-for-14 in stolen bases last year, and has plus speed, the Yankees play off the bag at first base, as if to either (a) concede defensive indifference in a 5-0 game, or (b) acknowledge that they've been scouting the Jays this year. Red-lighted, Hinske stays put. Defensible, at least.

Then the count gets to 3-2 on Greg Myers. So even though Mussina's getting grounders, Myers is having a selective at-bat, the Jays have already hit into two DP's at this point and Giambi is playing off the bag at first, they don't send Hinske. Voila, a Myers single as Hinske trots contentedly into second base.

Regardless of what you believe about the relative merits of sending a runner, even the most hardline sabermetrician must admit that it's a competitive disadvantage when the opponent knows you will never, ever, ever put a runner in motion. Even if we discount entirely the hard-to-quantify disruptive effect on a pitcher -- although Mussina made zero throws over to first last night, even with Cat on base twice and Hinske once -- it must be admitted that (a) giving the defence more range by their not even having to hold runners and (b) giving the catcher the freedom to call whatever pitch he likes (and no pitchouts) is valuable to the opposition.

Let's compare the Jays' strategy to that of the Yankees, who I respectfully suggest know how to play the game a little bit. They didn't run recklessly, but they did send runners three times:

i) Erick Almonte stole second, successfully, and scored;
ii) Bernie Williams went in motion, avoiding a double play on a ground ball by Matsui;
iii) Giambi and Williams both went in motion on a 3-2 pitch, one out, to Matsui. Matsui hit a towering pop-up, the runners retreated, and nothing was gained. Note, however, that the Yankees sent Jason Giambi from second on a 3-2, 1 out pitch while the Jays held Eric Hinske on first -- with the 1B playing behind him -- in the same situation.

By the way, for all the talk about the Jays being smart and aggressive on balls in play while putting the red light on steals per se, they haven't consistently shown it in this series. On Monday night, a play went 1-6-3-2 and Hudson was still nearly cut down while trying to score from third!

It's become chic in sabermetric circles to bash on Joe Morgan lately, presumably because one of the most intelligent, fundamentally sound and complete middle infielders in baseball history "doesn't get it" -- at least not like John Q. Calculator gets the nuances of baseball. (I don't mean to offend statheads. But Joe Morgan "doesn't get it?" Come on!) Fact is, though, I saw the Morgan tirade on the A's offence on Sunday Night Baseball, and I think his point has merit: The A's offence is not perfectly built for the postseason. As Morgan explained, a walks-and-power offence is tremendous during the regular season with the right personnel, because there is so much vulnerability out there among AL rank-and-file pitchers. When you have the pitching and the power to reliably out-homer the opposition, you'll win a lot of regular season games.

But in the playoffs, when the pitching wheat is separated from the chaff, you need to have a team that is at least remotely capable of manufacturing runs during pitchers' duels. And Morgan's criticism of the A's is that there isn't anyone who can execute a small-ball play or take an intelligent extra base on the basepaths; he prefers a more versatile offence in a short series with good pitching, like the Yankees or Angels. Certainly, reasonable minds can differ on this point. But an Earl Weaver attack, even if it's the organizational philosophy, can't win every game under all circumstances.

Last night was one of those anti-Earl nights. The Jays could have played a doubleheader before last night's version of Mussina hung a curveball over the fat part of the plate. Simply put, the Jays needed to scratch and claw to score last night, and they didn't do so. Six baserunners, no "plays on," three double plays.

I recognize that the Jays will hang a 10-spot on the Devil Rays next week with a walk/extra-base hit attack, and they'll look great doing so. I'll be cheering for it. But while I apologize for my vitriolic ramblings in general, I stand by my specific point, which is that strategic rigidity gave me the "red light blues" last night.
Red Light Blues | 40 comments | Create New Account
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_mo tucker - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#90458) #
Two men were traveling together, when a Bear suddenly met them on their path. One of them climbed up quickly into a tree, and concealed himself in the branches. The other, seeing that he must be attacked, fell flat on the ground, and when the Bear came up and felt him with his snout, and smelt him all over, he held his breath, and feigned the appearance of death as much as he could. The Bear soon left him, for it is said he will not touch a dead body. When he was quite gone, the other traveler descended from the tree, and accosting his friend, jocularly inquired "what it was the Bear had whispered in his ear?" he replied, "He gave me this advice: Never travel with a friend who deserts you at the approach of danger."

Are J.P. & Tosca on the same page?
_M.P. Moffatt - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#90459) #
http://economics.about.com
"Last night was one of those anti-Earl nights. The Jays could have played a doubleheader before last night's version of Mussina hung a curveball over the fat part of the plate. Simply put, the Jays needed to scratch and claw to score last night, and they didn't do so. Six baserunners, no "plays on," three double plays."

The idea that Weaver's teams didn't steal at all is a myth. Sure they were never among the league leaders in stolen bases, but they weren't usually last either. The O's would steal quite a bit in the late innings, particularly guys like Frank Robinson.

MP
_Pfizer - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#90460) #
I think where Joe Morgan loses statheads is in his articles on ESPN attacking them. Specifically, his recent article insisting OBP isn't everything. Of course it isn't everything - I don't think anyone suggests that. However, when Fred Lunchbox reads that he thinks 'Man, those Red Sock and Jay management types are idiots. Why haven't they hired Good Ol Joe Morgan? He knows what times it is.'

I listen to Joe looking for a perspective on what it's like to be a player, not how to draft and build a ball club.
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#90461) #
I could match Mike D's rant word-for-word, but I'll stick to two points:

1) The Yankees were the organisation, in the early and mid 90s, to emphasize power and walks. Beane seized on this and made it his obsession. And the A's were sixth in the AL in runs last year. I've said it before but I'll say it again: it doesn't matter if you lead the league in walks and home runs, if the A's aren't throwing Barry Zito, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson out there 60 percent of the time, Billy Beane's reputation comes down a notch or two. Someone, I think Neyer or even a BP person -- though the latter is a remote possibility, since they can't breathe a word of criticism against the A's -- pointed out that over the last five years or so Jason Giambi was really the only one on the team who fit in with the "power and patience" mold. His brother did, too, and now so does Scott Hattberg. As always, I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but there is some merit to this; of the A's over the last two seasons, only Hatteberg and Jeremy, and, to a lesser extent Mark Ellis, have drawn any walks and worked the count in their favor like Jason Giambi did. They have Durazo and he looks like a mini-Jason Giambi in his ability to work the count, so that is a positive sign.

I love Miguel Tejada and Eric Chavez as hitters, but even I admit they haven't taken that next step up to become truly elite hitters. Odds are better Chavez will rather than Tejada, but you never know. Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Player X to be acquired. This is why the A's will win 100 games again this year; their offense is pedestrian, the presence of some good hitters notwithstanding.

2) The A's will never win a World Series until they improve their bullpen, and that means spending some money or making a trade in July to acquire a strikeout pitcher. Not as their closer -- Foulke is fine -- but as a set-up guy. They can still run their re-treads like Tam and Bradford and Mecir and Bowie and Gizzi and Doherty, but, come playoff time, when you're facing good pitching AND hitting, they need someone who can get outs without putting the ball in play.
_R Billie - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#90462) #
The Seattle Mariners have played the ultimate "versatile" offence the past couple of years and haven't gotten out of the AL (or even made the post-season last year).

The A's despite being so supposedly outclassed in the post-season have come within a victory of advancing. In other words, they've lost the 5th game of a 5 game series three years running. That's not my idea of being outmatched...just being unlucky.

The Jays HAVE run in recent games, particularly on full counts. At least twice the batter has swung and missed and the runner was thrown out easily at second. No matter what you do you will always ground into some double plays and sometimes at key moments of the game.

I would have taken Bordick out of the game there...I wouldn't have even started him yesterday. I really don't much at all care what he's done against Mussina in all of 50 career at bats.

The Jays could possibly have done things to stay out of double plays last night but the real problem was that they only produced three singles and six baserunners all game while striking out 10 times. The Jays turned 2 double plays, the Yanks turned 3. It was the pitching that was the difference.

Though I completely agree with you on the issue of take signs. I would put a take sign on Vernon until he gets a strike on him. It's frustrating to me how often he'll get ahead 2-0 or 3-1 in a count and then spoil it by swinging at borderline pitches.
Dave Till - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#90463) #
Mike, you don't get thrown out of the ZLC. The departure ceremony is far more intricate and painful than that. :-)

The Yankees may have a versatile offense, but they're scoring runs the sabermetrically-approved way: they're tied for the league lead in extra-base hits, second in home runs, and third in walks. They're scoring runs because they're good, not because their manager is clever. (Earl Weaver once said that his idea of managerial genius was to say "Hit it hard, Frank," to Frank Robinson, and "Nice hit, Frank," when he returned to the dugout after hitting a home run.)

The Jays' team batting stats are the A's philosophy to the max. They have no little ball numbers at all: zero stolen bases, and zero sacrifice hits. But they're second in the league in walks. They're fifth in slugging, which isn't bad, given that many of their big bats haven't untracked. And, most importantly, they're third in the league in runs scored, with 78. (They're also way ahead of the pack in strikeouts, with 115. No one else is in three figures.)

Their major problem is that they are in the midst of the Terrible Twenty. The only offenses better than the Jays are those of the Yanks and the Sox, and the Jays are busy playing the Yanks and Sox a lot right now. But we all knew that the Yanks and Sox were better than the Jays, didn't we?
_Cristian - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#90464) #
The reason I don't give Joe Morgan much credit is because his arguments are never fully developed. He's not a good writer, plain and simple. When he makes a point that merits analysis, Joe never delivers any substantive analysis. I'm then left with having to analyze his vague point and extrapolate some arguments. The problem is that I don't know where Joe was going so I can't guess what supporting arguments Joe would have made. I guess if I was old enough to appreciate the Big Red Machine I would just say, "well...this is Joe Morgan and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about." However, I don't give him the benefit of the doubt and I require a more in depth analysis--the kind of in depth analysis usually given to me by the more statistically oriented writers.

That said, I do think his argument that the A's offence is not suited to the postseason is an argument that requires some more critical analysis. Hitters trained to work the count will quickly find themselves 0-2 against quality pitching. Sort of like what happened to the Jays last night. As well the ability to scratch out a run is a skill that must be practiced in the regular season. I agree with Mike D that a team must steal enough to at least put the fear of a steal in the mind of the defence.
_Please - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#90465) #
Jim Mecir is a retread? I don't think so. He's a quality reliever, and is paid as such. Is your arguement that all the relievers in the bullpen have to be high strikeout guys, or that Beane has to 'finally' acquire one guy who can be called upon, who consistently has high strikeout rates? Those are two different arguements.
_Chad Bradford a - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#90466) #
The A's will never win a World Series until they improve their bullpen

Excuse us?
Dave Till - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#90467) #
That said, I do think his argument that the A's offence is not suited to the postseason is an argument that requires some more critical analysis. Hitters trained to work the count will quickly find themselves 0-2 against quality pitching.

I guess it depends what you mean by working the count. Do hitters who "work the count" always take the first two pitches?

From what I understand, "control of the strike zone" means that the hitter doesn't swing at bad pitches. A good hitter zones down - if the ball isn't in his designated hitting zone, he takes it. If the ball is in the zone, he should attempt to whack the living tar out of it.

Of course, quality pitching succeeds against all types of hitters, selective or aggressive. That's why it's called quality pitching. :-)
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#90468) #
No, Mecir is not a retread, nor is Bradford, either. Both of those pitchers help the A's. Your points, Mr. Please, are "well-taken." (Wink.)

Still, I think the A's need someone else down there, too. As I said, it doesn't have to be Ocatvio Dotel, but if the Jays can pry Politte from the Phils, it seems to me the A's could get Kyle Farnsworth or a different "unwanted" high-octane pitcher. While it's a good idea to build bullpens as cheaply as possible, it's a better idea to have a reliable power pitcher down there. Mecir is in the Jeff Tam mold: if his sinker/splitter/forkball isn't working, the result is line drives all over the place. If a power pitcher isn't clicking -- say his fastball is 94 MPH instead of 97 -- he can still get people out.
_M.P. Moffatt - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#90469) #
http://economics.about.com
The A's haven't been *that* bad in the post-season.. it's not like they're the Astros or anything.

Over the last 3 years, they're 6-9 in the post season, with 2 out of those 3 series against the Yankees. They've actually outscored their opposition 92-86 over that span. That's over 6.1 runs a game or nearly 1000 runs projected over 162 games. Their offence has been fine.

It's their post-season pitching which has been the problem. They're bullpen hasn't been great, but neither have their starters.

I think it's mostly just luck.

MP
_M.P. Moffatt - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#90470) #
http://economics.about.com
Gitz: If that's true, how come Escobar is such a horrible closer?

MP
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#90471) #
Escobar is a lousy closer because he walks about five guys per nine innings. Or he's too sensitive and reads too much Robert Browning poetry. What am I, Kresgi?
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#90472) #
Incidentally ... is "Please" the same person as "John Doe"?
_Mick - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#90473) #
Gitz, I think you mean "Kreskin," don't you? As in "Amzing, The"?

And no, I'm not "Please."
_John Hart - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#90474) #
Mr. Gizzi, can I interest you in one Ugie Urbina?

I like making trades with you. Mario Ramos has been such a pleasant addition to the Texas Ranger family.
Mike D - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#90475) #
Dave, the Jays' strategy was caricatured by the Yankees yesterday. Does anyone think that Hinske would be thrown out by Posada on a 3-2 pitch with all the leadoff he wanted?

It's the "caricature" aspect -- zero SBs, zero adjustments made by the opposing defense -- that bothers me. I failed to mention in my post that when Cat was on base, the Yankees put three infielders in right field for Delgado, leaving Ventura to presumably cover on a steal attempt and the whole left side untouched. They didn't have to put on the "baserunner-modified" lesser shift, since they knew the Jays think it's sinful to steal.

I'm not suggesting that the Jays steal in front of Delgado, opening up the intentional walk. But different games sometimes warrant different approaches. It's nice that the Jays scored a bunch of runs off of certain Twins starters and the Boston committee, but games like that inflate the season-long numbers (3rd in runs) of a team that will not stand a chance playing that way against a pitcher with good control and good stuff. I definitely think the Jays will pound on Tampa with their approach...but what about when they play Oakland?

By the way, R Billie's point about speedy Seattle having the "most versatile" offense is kind of like saying that an all-black college is the "most diverse" academic institution. I think of the Yankees when I think of true versatility, because they have outstanding power *and* the willingness to use their great speed as a weapon when the situation so warrants. Of course, they're a better club than the Jays. But they also are better at playing the hand they're dealt in terms of skills that each hitter brings to the lineup.

We have several players with speed, and we have no stolen bases at all. I would rather this be based on health, or facing Ivan Rodriguez over and over. Instead, it's based on ideology.

The way the Jays approached yesterday's game strategically, both with bases empty and men on, they had *no chance* of beating Mike Mussina. None at all. They didn't have a chance against Clemens on opening day either.

I think if Mussina was pitching against New York with his stuff last night, the Yankees lineup would have made it an interesting game -- yes, of course because they're good, but also because they would give him, his catcher and his defence something to think about every so often.

Outs are precious, but when Moose is dialed in...so are baserunners.
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#90476) #
I'll give you Jason Hart for Urbina ... wait, the Rangers were already dumb enough to take Hart. I do have a number of medicore relief pitchers available, including your personal favorite, Mr. Rincon. Mark Texeira will suffice, thank you.

And yes, I did mean The Amazing Kreskin, who is nonetheless a step down from The Amazing and Fantabulous Doherty ...
_Shrike - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#90477) #
Mike, I couldn't agree more. In certain circumstances it's foolish to let a particular skill that a significant number of your everyday lineup possesses to atrophy--high-percentage base-stealing in this instance--because the organizational philosophy decries stolen base attempts.

Yes, a team's stolen base attempts should be over 75% successful or you are giving up precious outs.

But Stewart, Catalanatto, Hinske and to a lesser extent Woodward, Hudson and Wells all possess sufficient speed and baserunning acumen to steal at a high rate of success. And in high-leverage situations when the Jays are up against an ace pitcher like Mussina, most of the Oakland staff, etc., moving your rare baserunners into scoring position is very valuable.
_Jordan - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#90478) #
Well, I had a great response all set to go, and then I got called into two meetings, and the intervening (terrific) discussion has covered many of my points. Work keeps getting in the way of more important things. Anyway, because I couldn't possibly allow all this masterful insight to go to waste, I'm posting it now.

Catalanatto in right field was always something of an experiment -- making him a left fielder, as the Rangers did, was already out-of-the-box thinking, and no one was going to confuse him with Jacque Jones out there, so right field was always going to be a stretch. His best defensive position may well be second base, but I can't see him moving there unless The Orlando Hudson Project goes completely off the rails, which I don't think is imminent. We'll have to take heart in the belief that he should get better in terms of reads and jumps as the season goes on, and that maybe his cutoff men will start making their way deeper nto short right field to account for his infielder's wing.

Regarding Hudson's at-bat --- I would actually be prepared to argue the O-Dog's approach there. Plate discipline -- a bad term really, as someone has pointed out; it has moral overtones -- pitch selection isn't necessarily the same as being patient. Or, put differently, patience is less about taking a lot of pitches than it is about taking pitches that you can't drive anywhere. Recognizing those pitches you can drive, and reacting to them, is the key to hitting. With the count 2-0, against a tiring pitcher, Hudson should have been narrowing down even further his select list of pitches he should swing at. It's quite possible that he identified one and took a crack at it, and I wouldn't criticize a 2-0 swing there if it was the right pitch for him to go after. It's hard to tell if it was, of course, and I can only assume that if it wasn't, Mike Barnett had a word or two for him when he came back.

I'm more inclined towards your criticism of the running game, or the complete lack of a semblance thereof. The Jays' plan, as we all know, is to steal bases only when the situation (encompassing runner, pitcher, catcher, inning and score) dictates -- they're aware of the studies that show you need around three steals for every CS. But the running game isn't just about swiping bases whenever feasible -- it's about being fully aware of the opportunity and likelihood of advancing closer to home plate in every at-bat, maybe on every pitch. The argument for sending Hinske before the count was 3-2 was excellent: his high SB rate, the defensive indifference, and Posada's relatively unthreatening arm were all factors in favour. The argument for sending him 3-2 was close to irrefutable.

Like you, I wouldn't be making a big deal about this -- it's only one or two plays, and hindsight never wears contacts -- if it weren't discomfitingly symbolic of a team that apparently really does think it can wait for two walks and a three-run jack against the Mike Mussinas and Brad Radkes of the world. Consider this: after 14 games, the Blue Jays have stolen not one base. Zip. And they've been caught four times. With that kind of number staring at Joe Torre, why be surprised if Giambi plays off the bag? The stolen base can backfire if used poorly; used well, it can be very beneficial. But not used at all, it can't do a thing.

The Joe Morgan argument against the drawbacks of the A's style is intriguing, though I'm not sure I fully buy it. In the 2002 postseason, Oakland finished third among eight playoff teams in OPS (scoring 5.2 runs per game), and second in OPS in 2001 (a little over 2 runs a game that year, though some credit surely had to go to the buzzsaw Yankee rotation they ran into). The margin of defeat for the A's these last few years has been so close, and has hinged on such unlikely events as whether or not Jeremy Giambi knows how to slide, that I don't believe you can lay it all on roster construction. I think that the sample size from playoff rounds is still too small to draw conclusions, and that the jury is still out on whether or not you can build a World Series-winning team in Athletics fashion.

Your point about hanging 10-spots on the Devil Rays is well-taken: if the Jays suddenly get their groove back against the league's stooges, we shouldn't assume their problems are all ironed out. A better test will be the next meeting with these Yanks and Red Sox later this summer, not to mention their upcoming trial by fire in the AL West. We need to keep in mind that this is about developing a team for both the short-term and long-term; what we're seeing right now are undeniably growing pains on both counts.
_Mick - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#90479) #
[Catalanotto's] best defensive position may well be second base

Let's be honest. This will sound like a joke, but it's not intended that way. Cat's best defensive position is designated hitter. When the Rangers were DH'ing Cat and leading him off -- VERY briefly -- I thought that was terrific.

If you have to put him somewhere on the diamond, from what I've seen of Cat, he's a better third baseman than second baseman. In fact, and I brought this up over the winter some time, he'd be a terrific 3B for some team that had an excellent defensive shortstop and didn't need big power from that corner. As a Yankee fan, I'd take Cat at 3B over Zeile or Ventura right now without blinking.

But I hear the Jays have some guy playing third who might be even better than Cat.
_Spicol - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#90480) #
I enjoy Joe Morgan's analysis in-game. He's solely entertainment for me...the wizened old vet who can give insight as to what it would be like to be in the situation unfolding before him. He's nothing more than that and to expect more is to invite disappointment. He's not even close to the first guy I'd go to for thoughts on how to assemble a ball club. His theory has two major holes:

1) Having a club built to succeed in the playoffs is only an asset if you actually get to the playoffs. If the Ricciardi/Beane approach positions your team to consistetly get to the playoffs since it's a cheap approach (ie. it's easier to replace patient, power hitters with low bucks than to find complete players), almost anything can happen after that due to the volatility of a short series.

2) The A's from 2000-2002 didn't lose because they couldn't scratch runs by. If your team scores +4, -6 and -1 runs compared to your opponents, you didn't lose because you have a terrible team, you lost because of bad luck and not getting hits or pitches in the right situation.
_M.P. Moffatt - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#90481) #
http://economics.about.com
I wouldn't be so quick to disqualify Joe Morgan as a baseball analyst. After all, he *did* win two AL East titles as manager of the Red Sox. :)

MP
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#90482) #
Jordan,

No, you cannot lay all the blame for the A's post-season disappointments solely on poor roster construction. But it is a factor. The problem with putting a roster of sluggers, in theory, out there is that sluggers tend to be one-dimensional -- and not the Jeremy-Giambi "one-dimensional," which was just Beanespeak for "pot-head" and "malcontent." This is OK if you're Jason Giambi, but, as I've been saying, the A's no longer have Jason Giambi, and they don't even need him, per se; they have three very good starting pitchers, and they will win with Terrence Long or Chris Singleton or John Gizzi in the every day lineup. (Don't knock me; I'm a switch-hitter with power from both sides of the plate. Granted, it's warning-track power, but that's power, too.) Come playoff time, however, it would HELP if they also had, in addition to a power pitcher in the bullpen, a little more diversity within their offence.

The A's or Jays don't necessarily need the kind of "balanced" offence the Mariners or Yankees offer, and I'm not saying they should go out and get a roster full of David Ecksteins. But one or two of those types of players -- not necessarily someone with OBP and slugging skills but baseball players -- could help the club more than even Erubiel Durazo. For as good as Durazo can be if he stays healthy, isn't it odd that he is EXACTLY the type of player the A's collect every year, and are praised profusely for doing it, then let them play in Sacramento, waiting for a chance to play? Well, that chance never happens because Billy Beane will trade for Jermaine Dye or Ray Durham or Durazo rather than play Mario Valdez or Billy McMillon or Mitch Meluskey. I would rather the A's had re-signed Durham -- who is exactly the kind of multi-faceted player the A's lack -- and given the job to Valdez or McMillon or even Eric Byrnes. If those guys didn't work out, then go get Ruby or someone like him. After all, isn't this supposed to be Beane's forte? Acquiring "free talent"? What's the point of acquiring it if you don't use it?

There is a disconnect here between how Beane is different than other GMs; like the Ed Wades and John Harts of the world, Beane prefers the proven vet over minor-league veterans with good MLEs, too, at least when it comes to position players. I'll still take my chances with Beane, of course, but we should apply the same standards -- that is to say, critical -- to him as we do to "conventional" GMs.
_Cristian - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#90483) #
If the playoffs are a crapshoot then I guess the Yankee dynasty is just a remarkable run of luck since every year each of the 8 post-season teams has an good chance of winning the World Series. The fact that the Yankees were better than the other post season teams has little to do with it.
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#90484) #
A final note: you certainly cannot attribute the A's losing two years ago to the Yankees to "bad luck." Jeremy Giambi cannot do anything but hit; he was only in the game still because Art Howe did not pinch-run for him. That is not bad luck. Jeremy Giambi did not slide because he has no other baseball skill than hitting a pitch in a specific zone that he has to be looking for or else he will miss it. That is not bad luck. The reason Derek Jeter was backing up the play that threw Giambi out was becaue Jeter is a helluva baseball player and made a great play. It was not bad luck.

The reason Terrence Long misplayed the ball in CF that cost the A's six runs in the first inning of Game 5 was because Terrence Long is a bad defensive center fielder. That is not bad luck.

Last year, Art Howe bringing in a sore-armed Ted Lilly to work against the Twins was a stupid decision. That is not bad luck. And on and on we could go ...
_M.P. Moffatt - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#90485) #
http://economics.about.com
Keep in mind Gitz, if the A's had more good luck, there probably wouldn't have been a Game 5 for Little Giambi not to slide in.

I've got to agree, though.. the A's have made some *really* strange tactical decisions over the last few years during the playoffs, and it has cost them games (even series).

MP
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#90486) #
I think the non-slide was game three? Or is my memory faulty again?
_M.P. Moffatt - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#90487) #
http://economics.about.com
I thought it was five, but my memory is completely gone, so you're probably right.

MP
_Spicol - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#90488) #
A final note: you certainly cannot attribute the A's losing two years ago to the Yankees to "bad luck."

I don't think we can chalk a loss in one game or one series to bad luck because the effect of one managerial decision or one bonehead play can alter the outcome significantly, but 3 league division series, when you've scored nearly as many runs as your opponents? Yes, absolutely, a component of that is luck.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#90489) #
If you actually look at the totals for the Oakland v. Minnesota series, you'll see that the Oakland approach at the plate didn't really suffer in the postseason. They scored 26 runs, and their playoff .832 OPS was better than their regular season .766 OPS. So, excuse me Mr. Morgan, but you're talking out your ass.

The problem, of course, was that the A's vaunted pitching failed them and they allowed the Twins to score 27 runs. (The Twins had a .822 OPS in the series and .766 during the regular season.)

If Tim Hudson pitches like Tim Hudson, then the A's whip the Twins. Instead, Hudson's ERA was 6.23 in two starts.

I don't think starting Hudson over Zito was an indefensible mistake, despite the Twins' problems against lefties. (Although they didn't seem to have a problem with Lilly.) Baseball Primer actually makes a case that Hudson deserved the Cy Young last year over Zito, and he'd posted a 2.85 ERA in one start against the Twinkies that year. (For the record, Zito had a 1.80 ERA in two starts against them.)

Fleecing Kenny Williams and getting Foulke this year certainly says to me that Beane's serious about improving the bullpen.
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#90490) #
" ... and he's posted a 2.85 E.R.A. in one start against the Twinkies that year ... "

Wait, so the A's losing THREE straight years in the first round is "bad luck," but Hudson having a 2.85 E.R.A. in ONE start is skill and a basis for him to get the start over Zito? How do you explain Hudson's two bad starts in the playoffs against the Twins, then? More bad luck? Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#90491) #
I'm not trying to have it both ways.

Like most of you, I thought at the time Zito should have been the go-to-guy in Game 1. Zito's last regular season start seemed like an attempt to pad his numbers for Cy Young consideration, when he probably should have been resting in preparation to square off against the Twins.

Seeing the numbers, however, I'm saying there was a case to be made of starting Hudson over him. It's not like Hudson is some kid they picked off the street and asked "Hey Sonny, want to pitch in a baseball game?" Whether you agree or not that he was a better pitcher than Zito, by most reasonable standards he was a much better Game 1 starter than anyone on the Twins not named Johann.

If Oakland was unable to come back from deficits against the Twins in the late innings, that's a virtue of Minnesota's outstanding bullpen (Santana, Romero, Hawkins, Everyday Eddie), which is much much stronger than their starting rotation, not necessarily the Oakland attack.

Oakland lost all three series 3-2... you can't convince me that luck wasn't a factor.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#90492) #
Jeter's play alone brings to mind a headline in the Springfield Shopper: "BURNS BIRTHDAY TODAY. CREDITS LONG LIFE TO SATAN"
Craig B - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#90493) #
So many good comments to respond to, so much to go through... oh man, this is going to take a while.

/FULL RANT MODE ON/

This one might get me thrown right out of the ZLC.

Mike, the ZLC is self-selecting... no one has to drink the Kool-Aid if they don't want to.

Mike Mussina's ability to spot the location of both his fastball and his changeup was incredible last night. He had that rare combination of aggressiveness and precision that enabled him to paint the black in a way that challenged hitters, rather than nibble at them.

Essentially, as was pointed out in the game thread, this was game was unwinnable without holding on until Mussina pitched himself out.

I concede that Cat's RF defence has not yet cost the Jays a game. But one day, it will.

His bat will win a few. It's a shame that he's being asked to play a position he's not suited to.

Where was the premium on patience at the plate?

It was one pitch. He should have had the take sign, yes.

Whatever Tosca's reasons were for leaving in Bordick, I sure hope "resignation to defeat" wasn't one of them.

Heh. You're right, that was weird. I find myself disagreeing with a lot of pinch-hitting decisions.

Regardless of what you believe about the relative merits of sending a runner, even the most hardline sabermetrician must admit that it's a competitive disadvantage when the opponent knows you will never, ever, ever put a runner in motion. Even if we discount entirely the hard-to-quantify disruptive effect on a pitcher -- although Mussina made zero throws over to first last night, even with Cat on base twice and Hinske once -- it must be admitted that (a) giving the defence more range by their not even having to hold runners and (b) giving the catcher the freedom to call whatever pitch he likes (and no pitchouts) is valuable to the opposition.

Yes, this isn't a good thing. Except that the Jays don't "never" put a runner in motion, so it's inaccurate. At any rate, Moose was tiring, as you had just pointed out, and letting him off the hook with a cheap out down 5-0 would have been stupid. Who the heck runs down five runs? As for the comparison with the Yankees, the Yanks ran because they were leading. Joe Torre doesn't run when down five runs either.

(I don't mean to offend statheads. But Joe Morgan "doesn't get it?" Come on!)

There are a lot of things that no one has ever been able understand about baseball without studying the issue. Morgan discounts that knowledge, so he doesn't get it. It's not a shortcoming of Joe Morgan, he knows tons of other things, things that we as fans don't.

But in the playoffs, when the pitching wheat is separated from the chaff, you need to have a team that is at least remotely capable of manufacturing runs during pitchers' duels. And Morgan's criticism of the A's is that there isn't anyone who can execute a small-ball play or take an intelligent extra base on the basepaths; he prefers a more versatile offence in a short series with good pitching, like the Yankees or Angels. Certainly, reasonable minds can differ on this point. But an Earl Weaver attack, even if it's the organizational philosophy, can't win every game under all circumstances.

No approach can win every game under all circumstances. No one suggests that there is. You're attacking a straw man.

The Angels didn't win because of this. They didn't win because of small-ball plays, they didn't win because of "taking intelligent extra bases". They won because they clubbed the heck out of the ball, and hit 15 more extra-base hits than their opponents in the playoffs, and hit well over .300 as a team. There *were* almost no damn pitcher's duels in the Angels' playoff run. There were three in the sixteen games... Games One and Three versus Minnesota, and arguably Game Seven against the Giants. Game Three against the Twins, of course, was won with two solo home runs, the antithesis of small ball.

If you, or Joe Morgan, think the Angels won because they played small ball so well, you are not only wrong, you obviously weren't watching. I can't help saying it, I'm sorry. If Joe Morgan believes that, it shows he wasn't watching. I know it is easier to listen to the commentators and parrot back what they say, rather than watching the games, but if he tried watching the games that are actually played sometime then he would learn some amazing things.

Last night was one of those anti-Earl nights. The Jays could have played a doubleheader before last night's version of Mussina hung a curveball over the fat part of the plate. Simply put, the Jays needed to scratch and claw to score last night, and they didn't do so. Six baserunners, no "plays on," three double plays.

If you're seriously suggesting that there's a team out there who would beat Mussina last night, I'll laugh at you all night long. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes the blues just get a hold of you. I agree that it's depressing to get mowed down like that... it happens, it's one game, and if you try to build a team to avoid the 2-1 losses you end up losing a lot more games 4-2 that you could have won 6-4.

1) The Yankees were the organisation, in the early and mid 90s, to emphasize power and walks. Beane seized on this and made it his obsession.

Except he didn't. Look at the A's players... they're not just a "power and walks" team.

And the A's were sixth in the AL in runs last year. I've said it before but I'll say it again: it doesn't matter if you lead the league in walks and home runs, if the A's aren't throwing Barry Zito, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson out there 60 percent of the time, Billy Beane's reputation comes down a notch or two.

He does what he can with a tiny budget. He doesn't build a do-everything offense team because he can't. But yeah, he wasn't able to field a great offense last year after losing the best hitter in the American League.

2) The A's will never win a World Series until they improve their bullpen, and that means spending some money or making a trade in July to acquire a strikeout pitcher. Not as their closer -- Foulke is fine -- but as a set-up guy. They can still run their re-treads like Tam and Bradford and Mecir and Bowie and Gizzi and Doherty, but, come playoff time, when you're facing good pitching AND hitting, they need someone who can get outs without putting the ball in play.

Yeah, what they need is a killer bullpen, like the D-Backs had in 2001. Their closer - Kim - was a lot like Foulke, yeah, but look at that killer pen they had behind him in the playoffs...

Troy Brohawn
Greg Swindell
Mike Morgan
Bobby Witt
Albie Lopez
Miguel Batista.

DAMN, Spanky, that pen was SWEET. *Packed* with dominating pitchers.

I don't think the Angels spent big dollars on their pen last year either. The moral of this story is, no team gets to and wins the World Series because of their dominant setup man.

The Yankees may have a versatile offense, but they're scoring runs the sabermetrically-approved way: they're tied for the league lead in extra-base hits, second in home runs, and third in walks. They're scoring runs because they're good, not because their manager is clever. (Earl Weaver once said that his idea of managerial genius was to say "Hit it hard, Frank," to Frank Robinson, and "Nice hit, Frank," when he returned to the dugout after hitting a home run.)

Yeah, what Dave said.

Dave, the Jays' strategy was caricatured by the Yankees yesterday. Does anyone think that Hinske would be thrown out by Posada on a 3-2 pitch with all the leadoff he wanted?

Have you never seen a team throw behind a runner at first when they were playing off the bag? There is *zero* reason to run in that situation. Your chances of making it have to be sky-high in order to attempt that. At the end of a game, when you are tied or losing, especially on the road, your outs are the most precious thing you have. Down 5-0 with five outs left, trading an out for a sure run is a stupid play... taking off even on a 3-2 pitch is insane.

If the playoffs are a crapshoot then I guess the Yankee dynasty is just a remarkable run of luck since every year each of the 8 post-season teams has an good chance of winning the World Series. The fact that the Yankees were better than the other post season teams has little to do with it.

It was a remarkable run of luck... Being the best team in baseball for most of that time helped a lot. Can it not be both?

The reason Derek Jeter was backing up the play that threw Giambi out was becaue Jeter is a helluva baseball player and made a great play. It was not bad luck.

It was, I believe, Jeter's job to back up that play (and he was late), but yeah, that was not luck. Where the Yankees got lucky was that they didn't see an opponent step up and throw a dominating pitching peformance against them.

Fleecing Kenny Williams and getting Foulke this year certainly says to me that Beane's serious about improving the bullpen.

Much as I like Foulke and dislike Koch, it wasn't really a fleece job. Koch is a real good pitcher.
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#90494) #
Craig,

How can you say the A's aren't built on walks and power? Looking at their current roster, no, they certainly aren't, but everyone knows that's what their organisation emphasizes. Why else would Beane pursue Durazo so hard when he had supposedly suitable options available? It brings to mind the comment you made yesterday, "We think he'll turn it around." Beane obviously thinks, "We think he'll be healthy." Other than the stasticial differences between MarExplain the differences in the two philosophies, one being your traditional GM, the other a revolutionary one.

And have you watched an A's game? They are the most boring team in the league to watch, at least when they're up. When they're on D, it's quite exciting, as you never which OF will misjudge a fly ball (Singelton looked TERRIBLE last night). Mainly an A's game involves watching a few hitters draw a few walks; cleaning the kitchen while Long, Hernandez, and Singleton hit; waiting for Chavez, Tejada and now Durazo to hit a home run; hoping you don't have to see Micah Bowie or Ricardo Rincon or Jeremy Fikac in a high-leverage situation; cursing at Ken Macha for pinch-hitting for Durazo in the sixth inning; etc.

They don't steal. They never steal. They barely ever think about stealing. Jordan is spot on: the steal, like anything else, can be effective when used, ineffective when used inproperly. There's not much to argue about when it's never used or so little used as to make it inconsequential. They don't hit and run. They don't bunt (no big loss there). They never manufacture runs. It's homers or else. Like it or not, this is what the Blue Jays will be under the Ricciardi era. It's not a bad thing, necessarily, but it's the reality of the system.

Your point about the D-backs is "well-taken," but can you compare the 2001 D-backs to the A's? Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling don't need a deep bullpen. In theory, neither do Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and Mark Mulder, but when you've had Mr. By the Book Art Howe running the show, the A's needed a deep bullpen becaue of Howe's constant tinkering. I have never said the A's had to spend "big money," but I do think they need to get a power pitcher in the bullpen. And remember Francisco Rodriguez? He did OK in the post-season, as did Brendan Donnelly. What do these pitchers have in common? They throw gas. They get strikeouts. I'll take my chances with a strikeout pitcher over Chad Bradford any day.

Luck, luck, luck. I'm so tired of hearing how teams win the World Series because of luck. Does it play a factor? Of course! But you can go through every game of every series and find that both teams had their share of good and bad luck. For the most part, it's balanced out.

Look, why are we arguing? Just say I'm right, and we'll end this. :)
Craig B - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#90495) #
Look, why are we arguing? Just say I'm right, and we'll end this.

Never! Onward, to victory! We will march on a road of bones. :)

The A's prganization emphasizes plate discipline, but my point was just that the team belies that emphasis. I know a lot of people who insist they are all about discipline, consistency, and hard work. Just saying it, and even trying to do it, doesn't make it so.

I agree that that style, at its worst, is ditchwater dull... but no one takes that to extreme. There really aren't any teams out there that play 1950s baseball, mostly because the personnel out there is too skilled.

I was hoping you'd fall into the Randy/Curt argumentative trap but you eluded it neatly. Damn. :) Mulder, Zito and Hudson shouldn't need the deep bullpen, and we'll see whether Ken Macha will be able to avoid the Art Howe trap.

You did, incidentally, say that the A's needed to spend money. But the point you were trying to make is that a strikeout pitcher was needed, and Rincon (who strikes out eight men per nine innings) and Mecir (nearly that many) apparently don't qualify.

The amount of stuff we disagree on seems to be razor-thin. I'll call this one an "agree to disagree"... feel free to take issue with my points here, but we're getting closer. Soon we'll be arguing each other's positions.
_Jordan - Thursday, April 17 2003 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#90496) #
Jordan is spot on

I think this is the insight we really need to take home from this thread.
Dave Till - Thursday, April 17 2003 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#90497) #
Eventually, you will all admit that I was right all along. :-)

More seriously:

The A's or Jays don't necessarily need the kind of "balanced" offence the Mariners or Yankees offer, and I'm not saying they should go out and get a roster full of David Ecksteins. But one or two of those types of players -- not necessarily someone with OBP and slugging skills but baseball players -- could help the club more than even Erubiel Durazo.

The problem is that good baseball players are rare, and everybody wants them. The Jays aren't discarding players like Eckstein in favour of slow, high-OBP sluggers - they just never had any players like that to begin with. That's why they're not in the postseason.

I think the point Beane and his followers are making is that on-base percentage has been undervalued in the marketplace. As more front offices become influenced by Beane, high-OBP players will start being paid more. This means that a team won't be able to vault into contention the Beane/Ricciardi way, as there won't be any cheap quality ballplayers of any type lying around.

I'll become concerned if the Jays start discarding players who become successful elsewhere. Of all J.P.'s moves, the one to discard Felipe Lopez is the one that concerned me the most - sure, he's got attitude problems, but he's potentially a great player, and maybe it's better to try to find managers and front office people who can get immature but talented people to align themselves with the team goals (if such a thing is possible).

If the Jays trade the O-Dog, I'll start worrying.
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