The Jays' GM will be taking listener calls on The Fan 590 soon. I live downtown, so I don't know the long-distance number to call, but it's 416-870-0590 for those of you in the GTA. If you don't have a radio handy, click the link to get to the station's home page; you'll find a "Listen Live" button there.
J.P. thinks there's more parity than ever in baseball and that anyone could win the World Series, but he did single out the Red Sox offence and joked that Pedro could pitch "every third day."
I'm sure the lines are backed up now, but it's 1-888-666-0590 for out-of-town callers.
I'm sure the lines are backed up now, but it's 1-888-666-0590 for out-of-town callers.
The 2004 budget now seems to be $50 million, not the $48 million that had been mentioned most of this season. Hey, it's a good reliever.
J.P. compared Carlos Tosca very favourably to Tony Pena in the Manager of the Year race, saying he won more games in a much tougher division, but when he said there were better candidates, neither Marsden or Landry asked who -- it was, after all, time for a traffic report and commercials.
J.P. compared Carlos Tosca very favourably to Tony Pena in the Manager of the Year race, saying he won more games in a much tougher division, but when he said there were better candidates, neither Marsden or Landry asked who -- it was, after all, time for a traffic report and commercials.
Marsden seems to know very little about baseball.
Talking about the success of the A's, he noted Hudson/Mulder/Zito and the productive farm system in general.
About Bordick ...
J.P. didn't sound optimistic about luring Bordick away from retirement.
J.P. didn't sound optimistic about luring Bordick away from retirement.
J.P. doesn't like the idea of expanding playoffs, beyond possibly 1 more wildcard (though he doesn't speculate about how 5 playoff teams in a league would work).
The club will make an effort to bring Escobar back.
In passing, J.P. said that Syracuse will have Adam Peterson in the bullpen.
About the SS spot: "I think Chris Woodward is ready to step up, and if he's not, we'll find someone."
When asked about signing Bordick to his first contract, he shared, "I told Mike he's got 1,500 hits in the big leagues, and back then, I didn't think he'd get 1,500 at bats."
Some dope wanted to know if Paul Spoljaric will get a look next spring. J.P. politely said, "we're going to try to do a little better."
How do these guys get past the producers? A caller suggested a trade of Delgado for Pedro. What a waste of everyone's time.
A qualified response: "Towers has probably put himself in a position to maybe be the fifth starter next year."
Great reply to a caller who prefers Shannon Stewart to Bobby Kielty: "You don't have to answer to a budget. I do. Who do you want, Doc or Shannon Stewart?"
When asked about signing Bordick to his first contract, he shared, "I told Mike he's got 1,500 hits in the big leagues, and back then, I didn't think he'd get 1,500 at bats."
Some dope wanted to know if Paul Spoljaric will get a look next spring. J.P. politely said, "we're going to try to do a little better."
How do these guys get past the producers? A caller suggested a trade of Delgado for Pedro. What a waste of everyone's time.
A qualified response: "Towers has probably put himself in a position to maybe be the fifth starter next year."
Great reply to a caller who prefers Shannon Stewart to Bobby Kielty: "You don't have to answer to a budget. I do. Who do you want, Doc or Shannon Stewart?"
He sounds combative, eager, sharp. Like always, but with a bit of an extra edge after a good final few series and an off-season of work ahead.
He must be salivating at the thought of having millions in the budget and three superstars locked up under contract while all around him teams are cutting to the bone. There will be bargains this offseason.
He must be salivating at the thought of having millions in the budget and three superstars locked up under contract while all around him teams are cutting to the bone. There will be bargains this offseason.
J.P. didn't sound optimistic about luring Bordick away from retirement.
Unfortunate, but unsurprising. I wonder if they can find a job for him within the organization? Though I imagine the Orioles would make him a VP of Something-or-Other if they were halfway smart, which they're not.
Some dope wanted to know if Paul Spoljaric will get a look next spring.
And we wonder where Americans get the idea that Toronto baseball fans are clueless provincial dorks.
Unfortunate, but unsurprising. I wonder if they can find a job for him within the organization? Though I imagine the Orioles would make him a VP of Something-or-Other if they were halfway smart, which they're not.
Some dope wanted to know if Paul Spoljaric will get a look next spring.
And we wonder where Americans get the idea that Toronto baseball fans are clueless provincial dorks.
J.P. noted that to acquire pitching at some point they'll have to trade a prospect.
J.P. noted that to acquire pitching at some point they'll have to trade a prospect.
Start the Alexis Rios countdown....
Start the Alexis Rios countdown....
Start the Alexis Rios countdown....
... or O-Dog, who while useful and cheap is exactly the kind of player who gets overvalued.
... or O-Dog, who while useful and cheap is exactly the kind of player who gets overvalued.
While Rios would likely bring the most in a trade I think that the Jays have him in their RF plans for 2005.
I don't expect Hudson to go anywhere either for at least 2 more years.
I suspect a player teams would be interested in that the Jays would give up is Werth.
J.P. doesn't like the idea of expanding playoffs, beyond possibly 1 more wildcard (though he doesn't speculate about how 5 playoff teams in a league would work).
You could have the 2 wild card teams play each other in a 1 game series. The rest of the playoffs would proceed as they do now. That would put a little more meaning into winning the division.
I don't expect Hudson to go anywhere either for at least 2 more years.
I suspect a player teams would be interested in that the Jays would give up is Werth.
J.P. doesn't like the idea of expanding playoffs, beyond possibly 1 more wildcard (though he doesn't speculate about how 5 playoff teams in a league would work).
You could have the 2 wild card teams play each other in a 1 game series. The rest of the playoffs would proceed as they do now. That would put a little more meaning into winning the division.
Werth, Griffin and even Gross, I don't mind the Jays giving up - as long as they hold on to Rios.
Werth and Griffin won't land much in a trade right now. Gross, Kielty or Johnson might land a decent #3-4 Lilly-type starter while Rios could potentially land a solid young ace. It's obvious that JP likes Rios a lot too, but if the right offer comes along we certainly have to depth to get by without him.
Even though he's a favourite here, I think Reed Johnson is another one who could go in a trade. He's not in the team's long-term plans, but he has performed at the major league level and that might make him more appealing to another team than, say, Jayson Werth.
If Catalanotto comes back and Johnson is limited to a reserve role, this might be the time to entertain offers for Johnson's services.
If Catalanotto comes back and Johnson is limited to a reserve role, this might be the time to entertain offers for Johnson's services.
Don Landry asked him if he regretted the Shannon Stewart trade. Jesus, what does it take to get it through these people's heads that Stewart had to go, period?
Even though he's a favourite here, I think Reed Johnson is another one who could go in a trade. He's not in the team's long-term plans, but he has performed at the major league level and that might make him more appealing to another team than, say, Jayson Werth.
Werth is a very toolsy player. I think his value is pretty good. He's big, athletic, has a strong arm, and (I would think) projects to be a power hitter.
Werth is a very toolsy player. I think his value is pretty good. He's big, athletic, has a strong arm, and (I would think) projects to be a power hitter.
It took about 3 seconds for me to be reminded why I don't listen to the Fan's morning show.
It's not that Marsden knows little about baseball, he knows little about sports!
Anyways, personally and as suggested, I agree with moving O-Dog and Reed to the top of the list in terms of trade bait. Nineteen BBs in over four-hundred ABs isn't going to cut it at the top of the order, and I'm not sure Johnson has the pop to justify an OF spot down in the lineup. His defence would be missed. Same with Hudson, along with his overall approach to the game.
I'm not sure how much of a value you put on character (didn't Doc call Hudson the best teammate he ever had?), but just from a production standpoint, they might be the most replaceable commodities with value right now.
It's not that Marsden knows little about baseball, he knows little about sports!
Anyways, personally and as suggested, I agree with moving O-Dog and Reed to the top of the list in terms of trade bait. Nineteen BBs in over four-hundred ABs isn't going to cut it at the top of the order, and I'm not sure Johnson has the pop to justify an OF spot down in the lineup. His defence would be missed. Same with Hudson, along with his overall approach to the game.
I'm not sure how much of a value you put on character (didn't Doc call Hudson the best teammate he ever had?), but just from a production standpoint, they might be the most replaceable commodities with value right now.
FYI, BA has updated the top prospects for the EL. Jays take three of the top five spots with Rios at #2, Quiroz #4 and McGowan at #5. Bush takes the 19th spot. McGowan was compared to Roger Clemens while Rios drew the Juan Gonzalez comparison. The other write-ups did not say much that was new.
JP is very high in B Sheets ( Brewers ) but also are the B's. The asking price for him very likely would be Rios ( A Melvin and Ash fav ) and he balked. So lets enjoy a Juan like bath that can play Cf ( as if needed ).
Fot the ones that reported the radio interview: thanks a lot it was really interesting.
And oficially starts hot stove season!
And oficially starts hot stove season!
I would be conservative in assessing Werth's value. He hit .237/.285/.441 in 236 ABs at Syracuse this year and looked lost at the plate in his intermittent big-league appearances. He'll be 25 next May and he's running out of development time. If he's not catching, then he's of questionable value as a starting outfielder. I wouldn't give up a whole lot to get him.
I'd be quite surprised if Gross were dealt; even though he was an Ash pick, he's a JP kind of player: his OBP in 182 Syracuse ABs was .380. Griffin could be pigeonholed by other teams as a first baseman -- the more I think about it, the more he reminds me of Ryan Klesko. Which is of course not a bad thing. JP seems to really like him.
I'd hate to see Rios go, too, but if the Jays really want to get good pitching, they'd best be prepared to give up some serious baubles.
Question: does anyone have the year-by-year salary breakdown for Wells' and Hinske's contracts?
I'd be quite surprised if Gross were dealt; even though he was an Ash pick, he's a JP kind of player: his OBP in 182 Syracuse ABs was .380. Griffin could be pigeonholed by other teams as a first baseman -- the more I think about it, the more he reminds me of Ryan Klesko. Which is of course not a bad thing. JP seems to really like him.
I'd hate to see Rios go, too, but if the Jays really want to get good pitching, they'd best be prepared to give up some serious baubles.
Question: does anyone have the year-by-year salary breakdown for Wells' and Hinske's contracts?
You know how Bill James has those 'Could I Try This Career Over, Please' headings in his 'Decade in a Box' features? It's looking more and more like Werth is a candidate for this category. Not that it's too late for him. Hey, a couple of years ago Vernon Wells looked like he was on that track himself.
Basically I think Werth can play and is somewhat valuable. I don't know if he can ever be a major-league regular, but I'd be somewhat inclined to keep him around as an extra outfielder. An outfield consisting of Wells and Kielty/Johnson/Werth alternating in the other two spots looks okay to me. Or by all means trade him if you can get an arm back.
Basically I think Werth can play and is somewhat valuable. I don't know if he can ever be a major-league regular, but I'd be somewhat inclined to keep him around as an extra outfielder. An outfield consisting of Wells and Kielty/Johnson/Werth alternating in the other two spots looks okay to me. Or by all means trade him if you can get an arm back.
I wouldn't want to see O-Dog go.
1) He could be the best defensive 2B in the league for the next few years (he certainly looks good out there). I don't think we can underestimate the value of good D, particularly since the Jays are trying to build a pitching staff in house.
2) He's got good pop for a 2B and would probably be under-valued due to his massive split this year. His total line of 270/329/397 is dragged down by a horrid 162/217/192 (409 OPS!) v.s. Lefties. His 298/358/452 v.s. Righties is pretty sweet for a great glove second baseman.
3) It sounds like he's 'great in the clubhouse' Often discounted by statheads, it does matter. I would suggest it matters more in a retaining players/getting the Free Agents you want than in team performance.
4) He's great with the Fans and as a Marketing Tool. He's definately got a "let's play two" aura about him.
1) He could be the best defensive 2B in the league for the next few years (he certainly looks good out there). I don't think we can underestimate the value of good D, particularly since the Jays are trying to build a pitching staff in house.
2) He's got good pop for a 2B and would probably be under-valued due to his massive split this year. His total line of 270/329/397 is dragged down by a horrid 162/217/192 (409 OPS!) v.s. Lefties. His 298/358/452 v.s. Righties is pretty sweet for a great glove second baseman.
3) It sounds like he's 'great in the clubhouse' Often discounted by statheads, it does matter. I would suggest it matters more in a retaining players/getting the Free Agents you want than in team performance.
4) He's great with the Fans and as a Marketing Tool. He's definately got a "let's play two" aura about him.
I love O-Dog too. As a fan I'd like to see him stay.
I think trading Rios now would be a mistake as I've said before. When you have a guy who really has the potential to be something special you let him try to become that. I mean Ben Sheets would undoubtedly be a solid #2 starter behind Roy...but Rios has a chance to be another Vernon Wells if you give him just another year or two.
Of course, he could also fizzle and you end up getting nothing but JP has always said "know what you're giving up". I don't think they know what they're giving up in Rios yet.
With Reed Johnson, Bobby Kielty, JF Griffin, Jayson Werth, and even Hudson you have a much better idea what you're giving up. Frankly, I don't like the idea of trading either Gross or Rios but you do have to give something to get something.
Hudson I wouldn't trade until I was sure Adams and/or Hill were ready to take over second base. His defence and acceptable offence at minimal salary is just too valuable to this team. Similarly, Reed Johnson isn't worth a tremendous amount but his value to THIS team is multiplied by his low salary. So while the Jays should consider trading him (especially if he brings a power arm for the pen), I could also understand why they'd like to keep him if they end up doing so.
Of course, he could also fizzle and you end up getting nothing but JP has always said "know what you're giving up". I don't think they know what they're giving up in Rios yet.
With Reed Johnson, Bobby Kielty, JF Griffin, Jayson Werth, and even Hudson you have a much better idea what you're giving up. Frankly, I don't like the idea of trading either Gross or Rios but you do have to give something to get something.
Hudson I wouldn't trade until I was sure Adams and/or Hill were ready to take over second base. His defence and acceptable offence at minimal salary is just too valuable to this team. Similarly, Reed Johnson isn't worth a tremendous amount but his value to THIS team is multiplied by his low salary. So while the Jays should consider trading him (especially if he brings a power arm for the pen), I could also understand why they'd like to keep him if they end up doing so.
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Hinske 0.600 0.800 3.000 4.325 5.625
Wells 0.520 0.700 2.900 4.300 5.600
Not sure what the signing bonuses were.
....beyond possibly 1 more wildcard (though he doesn't speculate about how 5 playoff teams in a league would work).
I'd imagine, like BBFL, the top team would get a first round bye.
I'd really like to see the schedule shortened back to 154 games. As much as I love baseball, I hate seeing it played in November.
Reed Johnson or Hudson won't have much trade value. Nobody will give up quality pitching for them. And given the glut of LF hitting teams throw up against Halladay, O-Dawg helps turn grounder after grounder into easy looking outs. Personally, I'd try to keep him around for another year or two until Adams' bat is ready. (But maybe paying for defense might not be Keith's style.)
Aside from trading Rios, they still might get something valuable out of Oakland for Kielty.
I don't know about Sheets. He was the pitcher Oakland passed on to get Zito, to the laughter of other teams around the league. But what would it take to talk perpetually rebuilding Pittsburgh out of Wells?
I'd imagine, like BBFL, the top team would get a first round bye.
I'd really like to see the schedule shortened back to 154 games. As much as I love baseball, I hate seeing it played in November.
Reed Johnson or Hudson won't have much trade value. Nobody will give up quality pitching for them. And given the glut of LF hitting teams throw up against Halladay, O-Dawg helps turn grounder after grounder into easy looking outs. Personally, I'd try to keep him around for another year or two until Adams' bat is ready. (But maybe paying for defense might not be Keith's style.)
Aside from trading Rios, they still might get something valuable out of Oakland for Kielty.
I don't know about Sheets. He was the pitcher Oakland passed on to get Zito, to the laughter of other teams around the league. But what would it take to talk perpetually rebuilding Pittsburgh out of Wells?
I love O-Dog too. As a fan I'd like to see him stay.
You'll get no argument from me. He is one of my favourite players in baseball, even if I get frustrated at his inability to touch lefty pitching.
You'll get no argument from me. He is one of my favourite players in baseball, even if I get frustrated at his inability to touch lefty pitching.
Hey, a couple of years ago Vernon Wells looked like he was on that track himself
A couple of years ago Vernon was 22.
Werth is now 24.
I think the J.P. Jays should count themselves as very very very lucky in the development of Halladay and Wells (and apparently now Rios). Give the Ash-era scouts some credit, because J.P. wouldn't have wasted three first round picks on three high school players.
A couple of years ago Vernon was 22.
Werth is now 24.
I think the J.P. Jays should count themselves as very very very lucky in the development of Halladay and Wells (and apparently now Rios). Give the Ash-era scouts some credit, because J.P. wouldn't have wasted three first round picks on three high school players.
A couple of years ago Vernon was 22.
Werth is now 24.
I didn't mean to imply that Werth was another Wells. Just that it's not too late for Werth. Look at Reed Johnson. What's he, 28? Older than Werth, anyway.
Werth is now 24.
I didn't mean to imply that Werth was another Wells. Just that it's not too late for Werth. Look at Reed Johnson. What's he, 28? Older than Werth, anyway.
FYI, BA has updated the top prospects for the EL. Jays take three of the top five spots with Rios at #2, Quiroz #4 and McGowan at #5. Bush takes the 19th spot. McGowan was compared to Roger Clemens while Rios drew the Juan Gonzalez comparison. The other write-ups did not say much that was new.
I dunno, I think Rios != Igor.
Was Gonzalez ever that skinny? Rios looks like he's going to hit for a much higher batting average. Also, I see Rios having good power, but not "light tower" power like Gonzalez. Something more along the lines of Carlos Beltran.
Based on his height and speed, Rios might also turn out to be a bit like Dave Winfield, though he would have to fill out a lot to look anything like him.
The only common thread seems to be a lack of patience, which the Jays are working hard to correct...
jc
Rios is actually starting to sound a little like Vernon Wells.
I agree on the Rios-Wells comparison (and am giddy about it).
What route did Vernon take to Toronto? Did he not play with the big club in the Spetember of his first year? I seem to remember him fast-tracking like crazy and bobbing between AA-AAA and the bigs for his first two or three seasons before sticking.
Did anybody catch this bit of news?
Phil Cuzzi has been named to Bruce Froemming's umpiring crew for the postseason and will do games 1, 2 and 5 of the Cubs-Braves series and games 3 and 4 of the Marlins-Giants tilt.
I've never been sure if these are handed out based on merit, seniority or a rotational basis, but I'm under the impression it's probably a combination of factors. I guess since Palermo backed him up publicly it's not a huge suprise, but I was hoping that Palermo was secretely agreeing that it was a horrible decision and that the Doc debacle would impact his chances.
Phil Cuzzi has been named to Bruce Froemming's umpiring crew for the postseason and will do games 1, 2 and 5 of the Cubs-Braves series and games 3 and 4 of the Marlins-Giants tilt.
I've never been sure if these are handed out based on merit, seniority or a rotational basis, but I'm under the impression it's probably a combination of factors. I guess since Palermo backed him up publicly it's not a huge suprise, but I was hoping that Palermo was secretely agreeing that it was a horrible decision and that the Doc debacle would impact his chances.
While Cuzzi and Froemming may deserve each other, fans of the NL playoffs deserve neither.
My memory of Vernon's path was A-AA-AAA-big leagues, all in the same year, and IIRC he was named MVP of each of the minor league (teams or leagues?) that he played in.
TSF on thestar.ca includes minor league numbers.
Wells scaled 3 levels in 1999, but ended up playing most of 2000 and 2001 in AAA. His numbers in those years were not exactly stellar, so his rapid development in 2002 and 2003 has been a pleasant surprise.
Wells scaled 3 levels in 1999, but ended up playing most of 2000 and 2001 in AAA. His numbers in those years were not exactly stellar, so his rapid development in 2002 and 2003 has been a pleasant surprise.
Sory to be a wet blanket, but is there any chance that V-Dub was playing over his head this year?
Before this year, he's never, in a meaningful number of at-bats, posted a SLG above .500 (except when he was terrorizing single-A in 1999). He's never posted an OBP over .350 in a meeaningful number of at bats.
This year he was .360/.550.
Projection for next year: .340/.500.
He'll still be pretty valuable because of his defence, and the fan in me wants him to be a mega-star. But the realist in me looks at his career path and screams "regression to the mean in 2004".
Before this year, he's never, in a meaningful number of at-bats, posted a SLG above .500 (except when he was terrorizing single-A in 1999). He's never posted an OBP over .350 in a meeaningful number of at bats.
This year he was .360/.550.
Projection for next year: .340/.500.
He'll still be pretty valuable because of his defence, and the fan in me wants him to be a mega-star. But the realist in me looks at his career path and screams "regression to the mean in 2004".
I think Wells eventually becomes a .300/.340/.550 hitter with consistent 40 HR power (and a HOF plaque).
PS: That's my conservative estimate. I think he'll forever have a slugging percentage of around .550, and on this team in this system there's room for learning how to walk and up his OBP.
PS: That's my conservative estimate. I think he'll forever have a slugging percentage of around .550, and on this team in this system there's room for learning how to walk and up his OBP.
http://sixthstarter.sentientcitizen.com
I think you can see, simply by watching the games, that what Vernon is doing is for real.
I think you can see, simply by watching the games, that what Vernon is doing is for real.
On an earlier topic, I would love to see Ben Sheets come to the Blue Jays. If Gross or Griffin could get him, I'd pull the trigger. Earlier this season I held Gross at a higher level than Rios, but that has definitely changed. Maybe a C pitching prospect and one of those two could pry Sheets away. I also think resigning Escobar is just about a must (unless the salary gets out of hand of course). If Sheets were to be picked up, along with an Escobar resigning (and/or Hentgen coming in for a year) 90-94 wins and contending for a WC birth into September sounds about right.
For the record
The below comments are from Jayson Stark at ESPN. The reason I post this is that Stewart was very much maligned in a mean spirited sort of way prior to and upon his departure. Like most who post, I agree JP did pretty good in getting return for this talent for all the obvious resons, but I do not believe that in eagerness to toe the party line one has to be so badly ripped as this longtime Bluejay was here.
source Jayson Stark, espn
AL MVP -- Shannon Stewart
We've thought. We've surveyed. We've debated. We've looked at all these guys' numbers except their zip codes. But in the end, "most valuable" to us means: Which player in the league made the biggest difference? Which player's team would not have gotten as far as it did without him? And the answer we kept coming back to was: Shannon Stewart. No player has ever won an MVP award after changing teams in midseason. But from the day Stewart showed up in Minnesota, the Twins went 46-23 (best record in baseball), went from five games under .500 to a team that blew apart its division, went from a lineup that scored 4.6 runs a game to one that scored 5.4 a game. And it was no coincidence that in that time, Stewart led all AL leadoff men in batting average (.322) and on-base percentage (.384). You can read our thoughts on A-Rod elsewhere on this site. But this was a year in which half the teams in the league had a shot to get to the playoffs in September. So we went with a guy who was the single most important reason his team won over David Ortiz and Jorge Posada, two players who had fabulous years but were surrounded by many players whose seasons were almost as good.
BALLOT: 1) Stewart, 2) Ortiz, 3) Posada, 4) Bret Boone, 5) Manny Ramirez
The below comments are from Jayson Stark at ESPN. The reason I post this is that Stewart was very much maligned in a mean spirited sort of way prior to and upon his departure. Like most who post, I agree JP did pretty good in getting return for this talent for all the obvious resons, but I do not believe that in eagerness to toe the party line one has to be so badly ripped as this longtime Bluejay was here.
source Jayson Stark, espn
AL MVP -- Shannon Stewart
We've thought. We've surveyed. We've debated. We've looked at all these guys' numbers except their zip codes. But in the end, "most valuable" to us means: Which player in the league made the biggest difference? Which player's team would not have gotten as far as it did without him? And the answer we kept coming back to was: Shannon Stewart. No player has ever won an MVP award after changing teams in midseason. But from the day Stewart showed up in Minnesota, the Twins went 46-23 (best record in baseball), went from five games under .500 to a team that blew apart its division, went from a lineup that scored 4.6 runs a game to one that scored 5.4 a game. And it was no coincidence that in that time, Stewart led all AL leadoff men in batting average (.322) and on-base percentage (.384). You can read our thoughts on A-Rod elsewhere on this site. But this was a year in which half the teams in the league had a shot to get to the playoffs in September. So we went with a guy who was the single most important reason his team won over David Ortiz and Jorge Posada, two players who had fabulous years but were surrounded by many players whose seasons were almost as good.
BALLOT: 1) Stewart, 2) Ortiz, 3) Posada, 4) Bret Boone, 5) Manny Ramirez
http://economics.about.com
Like most who post, I agree JP did pretty good in getting return for this talent for all the obvious resons, but I do not believe that in eagerness to toe the party line one has to be so badly ripped as this longtime Bluejay was here.
I don't think anyone was unfair to Stewart.
The fact is the guy is horrible defensively. He's a good hitter, but not a great hitter.
You'd think the guy hit .400 in Minny the way people talk about him. He put up a whopping .294 EqA in probably the worst division in baseball since baseball went to divisional play. That's very good, but that's not MVP material.
Mike
Like most who post, I agree JP did pretty good in getting return for this talent for all the obvious resons, but I do not believe that in eagerness to toe the party line one has to be so badly ripped as this longtime Bluejay was here.
I don't think anyone was unfair to Stewart.
The fact is the guy is horrible defensively. He's a good hitter, but not a great hitter.
You'd think the guy hit .400 in Minny the way people talk about him. He put up a whopping .294 EqA in probably the worst division in baseball since baseball went to divisional play. That's very good, but that's not MVP material.
Mike
I like Shannon as much as the next guy, but MVP? Without even considering pitchers, I think that Carlos Delgado, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Trot Nixon, Jason Giambi, Bill Mueller, Jorge Posada, Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz, Carlos Beltran, Magglio Ordonez, Aubrey Huff, Dmitri Young, Jose Guillen, Corey Koskie, Bret Boone, Doug Mientkiewicz, Vernon Wells, Derek Jeter, Carl Everett, Tim Salmon, Rafael Palmeiro, Garrett Anderson, Jason Varitek, Hank Blalock, Nomar Garciaparra and Eric Chavez all had better seasons than Shannon Stewart.*
*The above uses one of my favourite quick-and-dirty-spreadsheet methods: (OBP*3) + SLG. [minimum 450 plate appearances].
Not that Shannon is not a valuable player, but MVP? On BP's VORP, Shannon is rated really far down the list [i am too lazy to count, but he is 8 spots behind Eric Munson, and 13 behind Jeff DaVanon].
On my list above, with the (OBP*3)+SLG formula, he ranks 29th in the AL. Not coincidentally, he is 28th in Runs Created.
I know that Shannon was a valuable Jays contributor for a long time; and it seems as though Jayson Stark has been hanging around with Joe Morgan too much; but MVP for a guy who played in only 136 games and tallied an OBP of .364 with only 13 homeruns? That would seriously harm the reputation of the MVP award.
*The above uses one of my favourite quick-and-dirty-spreadsheet methods: (OBP*3) + SLG. [minimum 450 plate appearances].
Not that Shannon is not a valuable player, but MVP? On BP's VORP, Shannon is rated really far down the list [i am too lazy to count, but he is 8 spots behind Eric Munson, and 13 behind Jeff DaVanon].
On my list above, with the (OBP*3)+SLG formula, he ranks 29th in the AL. Not coincidentally, he is 28th in Runs Created.
I know that Shannon was a valuable Jays contributor for a long time; and it seems as though Jayson Stark has been hanging around with Joe Morgan too much; but MVP for a guy who played in only 136 games and tallied an OBP of .364 with only 13 homeruns? That would seriously harm the reputation of the MVP award.
I know that Shannon was a valuable Jays contributor for a long time; and it seems as though Jayson Stark has been hanging around with Joe Morgan too much; but MVP for a guy who played in only 136 games and tallied an OBP of .364 with only 13 homeruns? That would seriously harm the reputation of the MVP award.
Ichiro Suzuki won the MVP with pretty similar stats. Only he stole 50 bases and was a stellar defensive player. On that basis I guess you COULD give the award to a leadoff type hitter but is half a season with the Twins really enough to earn Stewart the award?
I mean let's be fair...the guy was always one of my favourite Jays and I always thought he was seriously underrated and unfairly maligned in the press. But the guy's no MVP. Johan Santana probably had the single biggest impact on the Twins' turnaround.
Ichiro Suzuki won the MVP with pretty similar stats. Only he stole 50 bases and was a stellar defensive player. On that basis I guess you COULD give the award to a leadoff type hitter but is half a season with the Twins really enough to earn Stewart the award?
I mean let's be fair...the guy was always one of my favourite Jays and I always thought he was seriously underrated and unfairly maligned in the press. But the guy's no MVP. Johan Santana probably had the single biggest impact on the Twins' turnaround.
If Stewart were to win the MVP, it would be based on his first 15-20 games with the Twins. He went on a tear right after he was traded, but after that he returned to his normal self. He had an OPS of just .809 in August and .765 in September. What was so special about Stewart's performance during most of Minnesota's surge? Is he a great hitting coach and pitching coach or something?
If Stewart is the league MVP because his arrival in Minnesota just happened to coincide with everyone on the team going on a hot streak, then Kevin Cash is the MVP of the 2003 Blue Jays.
If Stewart is the league MVP because his arrival in Minnesota just happened to coincide with everyone on the team going on a hot streak, then Kevin Cash is the MVP of the 2003 Blue Jays.
Agree completely Mike. Stewart's competition is often overlooked in these silly MVP pontifications.
Of his 68 or so games (not sure if I missed one) in a Twins uniform, he squared off against the Tigers 12 times and against the Indians 15 times. Those teams were a combined 111-213.
He also faced the Royals 9 times (the only teams that gave up more runs than KC were Texas and Detroit) and the Rangers/Angels 6 times each.
The only Eastern Division team that the Twins played post-Stewart was the Orioles (7 times).
"Tough" teams were the White Sox (7), A's (4) and Mariners (2).
So Shannon amasses an .854 OPS against these Juggernauts and he's the MVP?! I've always liked this long-time Jay. I probably always will. But Stark is out of his mind.
Besides, anybody who lists David Ortiz as his second choice for MVP has zero credibility in my book.
Of his 68 or so games (not sure if I missed one) in a Twins uniform, he squared off against the Tigers 12 times and against the Indians 15 times. Those teams were a combined 111-213.
He also faced the Royals 9 times (the only teams that gave up more runs than KC were Texas and Detroit) and the Rangers/Angels 6 times each.
The only Eastern Division team that the Twins played post-Stewart was the Orioles (7 times).
"Tough" teams were the White Sox (7), A's (4) and Mariners (2).
So Shannon amasses an .854 OPS against these Juggernauts and he's the MVP?! I've always liked this long-time Jay. I probably always will. But Stark is out of his mind.
Besides, anybody who lists David Ortiz as his second choice for MVP has zero credibility in my book.
Sory to be a wet blanket, but is there any chance that V-Dub was playing over his head this year?
Before this year, he's never, in a meaningful number of at-bats, posted a SLG above .500 (except when he was terrorizing single-A in 1999). He's never posted an OBP over .350 in a meeaningful number of at bats.
I think his development was stunted when they pushed him too fast.
1999: A/AA/AAA
2000: AAA
2001: AAA
His 2003 season percentages are fairly close to his numbers in A-ball. IMO, push a player hard and the first thing that goes out the window is their strike zone judgement.
I expect Wells' walk rate to start climbing steadily as he gets more selective (and pitchers get more frightened of him). He probably has a few .300/.400/.600 seasons in him. However, I don't think he'll ever be as good a hitter as Manny or Vlad.
Vernon's power is definately not a fluke. The guy is built like an NFL running back (look at those thick legs) and has a lightning quick bat. I think this is the first of many seasons of .300+ with 30 homeruns and possibly 40 homeruns down the road. He's only 24 so unless he's one of the rare exceptions, he's not done improving yet. And the only area he really needs to improve is patience.
I have always liked Stew, and am glad for him that he has a shot during the playoffs. That said, the nonsense about him being an MVP candidate is a terrific example of media laziness. Is it really that hard for a seemingly-intelligent writer like Stark to dig up these numbers for the Twins (from espn.com, no less):
Pre-All Star: 4.74 ERA (9th in AL)
Post-All Star: 3.88 ERA (2nd in AL)
But it's all Shannon Stewart, right Geoff Baker? Aren't you the one who chided your critics as being too lazy to "do the legwork"?? I guess chopping more than a run off the entire team ERA couldn't possibly be the primary factor in their late season success...
This is precisely why I just can't take most of the professional baseball analysts seriously, unless they are Sabermetric-oriented, as these seem to be the only people who you can count on to usually do their homework, like Neyer or the Prospectus crew. There is far more knowledge and research by the people on this site than on 90% of the major media sites.
Pre-All Star: 4.74 ERA (9th in AL)
Post-All Star: 3.88 ERA (2nd in AL)
But it's all Shannon Stewart, right Geoff Baker? Aren't you the one who chided your critics as being too lazy to "do the legwork"?? I guess chopping more than a run off the entire team ERA couldn't possibly be the primary factor in their late season success...
This is precisely why I just can't take most of the professional baseball analysts seriously, unless they are Sabermetric-oriented, as these seem to be the only people who you can count on to usually do their homework, like Neyer or the Prospectus crew. There is far more knowledge and research by the people on this site than on 90% of the major media sites.
What college did Mcgowan, Rios and Quiroz go to ??
What college did Mcgowan, Rios and Quiroz go to ??
And you're point is? That JP is too dumb to know it's possible to find talent at other places besides colleges? That giving a 16-year-old Quiroz a $1.6 million bonus is a good risk for a team with a $50 million payroll, 40% of which is owed to 1 player? If this is your point, then perhaps you can enlighten us as to what amateur draft strategy you feel is preferable, given the Jays circumstances.
And you're point is? That JP is too dumb to know it's possible to find talent at other places besides colleges? That giving a 16-year-old Quiroz a $1.6 million bonus is a good risk for a team with a $50 million payroll, 40% of which is owed to 1 player? If this is your point, then perhaps you can enlighten us as to what amateur draft strategy you feel is preferable, given the Jays circumstances.
That giving a 16-year-old Quiroz a $1.6 million bonus is a good risk for a team with a $50 million payroll, 40% of which is owed to 1 player?
I'd like to point out that to this point, five years after Quiroz got all that money, the Blue Jays have still received zero return on their investment.
I'd like to point out that to this point, five years after Quiroz got all that money, the Blue Jays have still received zero return on their investment.
I'd like to point out that to this point, five years after Quiroz got all that money, the Blue Jays have still received zero return on their investment.
Not true. Quiroz has value as a prospect in potential trades and in anticipated/discounted expected future value in MLB. The way to tell that the Blue Jays have decided that they have received zero return on an investment in a minor league player is simple: they release the player. (How many minor leaguers do they release a year? Probably dozens -- they need to make room for all the draftees, and they can only bring up a couple/year to MLB on a permanent basis.) Obviously, it would be utterly absurd to release Quiroz. Now, we can debate if Quiroz is worth $1.xMM plus interest, or if giving big bonuses to kids is in general a good strategy, but we know with absolute certainty that Quiroz is not worth $0 -- which is obvious to start with, if you think about it.
http://economics.about.com
Not true. Quiroz has value as a prospect in potential trades and in anticipated/discounted expected future value in MLB.
There's a big difference betweeen value and ROI.
Cheers,
Mike
Not true. Quiroz has value as a prospect in potential trades and in anticipated/discounted expected future value in MLB.
There's a big difference betweeen value and ROI.
Cheers,
Mike
To the Strom Thurmond, Al Gore, Davey Crockett, George Wallace guy:
No more trolling. Once more and you will be banned.
No more trolling. Once more and you will be banned.
I think the "Shannon Stewart for MVP" argument is remarkably similar to the "Miguel Tejada for MVP" argument: A hot second half coinciding with your team's improvement apparently makes you an MVP.
In both cases, you only have to ask one question: Where were they in the first half? Stewart's .854 OPS post-all-star is pretty, if unspectacular, but his first half .796 is pretty pedestrian. Maybe if he'd had his hot streak earlier in the season, Toronto could have benefitted from his playoff-inducing mojo-magic. (Maybe the Twins would have accidently put Santana on waivers, too; apparently Stewart's just that good.)
Similarly, if Tejada hadn't been so terrible in the first half, the A's might not have need his spectacular second half to take control of the AL west.
In both cases, you only have to ask one question: Where were they in the first half? Stewart's .854 OPS post-all-star is pretty, if unspectacular, but his first half .796 is pretty pedestrian. Maybe if he'd had his hot streak earlier in the season, Toronto could have benefitted from his playoff-inducing mojo-magic. (Maybe the Twins would have accidently put Santana on waivers, too; apparently Stewart's just that good.)
Similarly, if Tejada hadn't been so terrible in the first half, the A's might not have need his spectacular second half to take control of the AL west.
I just found something interesting:
Cory Lidle and Tanyon Sturtze are both through in Toronto while Ricciardi said former closer Cliff Politte is "on the bubble" and Corey Thurman looks in tough to make the club. Lefty relievers Trever Miller and Jason Kershner and right-hander Aquilino Lopez will return, while the Jays will look at potential free-agent closers like Twins flamethrower Latroy Hawkins or Ricardo Rincon of the A's.
I don't know if this was something that JP was implying, but it seems to me that Hawkins and Rincon will carry a pretty hefty price tag. If the Jays aren't doing much next year, why hit the FA market this winter?
Cory Lidle and Tanyon Sturtze are both through in Toronto while Ricciardi said former closer Cliff Politte is "on the bubble" and Corey Thurman looks in tough to make the club. Lefty relievers Trever Miller and Jason Kershner and right-hander Aquilino Lopez will return, while the Jays will look at potential free-agent closers like Twins flamethrower Latroy Hawkins or Ricardo Rincon of the A's.
I don't know if this was something that JP was implying, but it seems to me that Hawkins and Rincon will carry a pretty hefty price tag. If the Jays aren't doing much next year, why hit the FA market this winter?
JP has said all along that he thinks he undervalued the bullpen last winter. Even to the point of admitting that letting Quantrill go was a mistake. I can see the Jays spending some of their free money on a quality FA reliever.
JP has said all along that he thinks he undervalued the bullpen last winter. Even to the point of admitting that letting Quantrill go was a mistake.
I wouldn't call it a mistake. I'd call it . . . unexpectedly expensive.
I wouldn't call it a mistake. I'd call it . . . unexpectedly expensive.
http://www.canoe.ca/Slam030930/mlb_tor1-sun.html
Interestingly, the Sun article (see home page) says J.P. was talking about JUAN Rincon.
Interestingly, the Sun article (see home page) says J.P. was talking about JUAN Rincon.
Juan Rincon is a terrific pitcher, someone I would really like seeing in a Blue Jay uniform. He's one of those type of guys who does nothing special except getting guys out... a short, chunky righty.
Aaron Gleeman, who I just e-mailed, says "Short little right-hander. Pretty decent stuff, especially his fastball. He used to be a starter and now seems like a lock to be their right-handed setup
man next year. Decent K rate, not-so-great control. He's either 3rd or 4th on the bullpen depth chart for the playoffs, depending on how confident they feel with Romero."
Aaron Gleeman, who I just e-mailed, says "Short little right-hander. Pretty decent stuff, especially his fastball. He used to be a starter and now seems like a lock to be their right-handed setup
man next year. Decent K rate, not-so-great control. He's either 3rd or 4th on the bullpen depth chart for the playoffs, depending on how confident they feel with Romero."
A cautious-sounding Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi lacked the giddiness of some of his fans yesterday when discussing where the team goes from here.
Was this a shout-out by Geoff to the peanut gallery here at Da Box, I wonder?
Politte and Thurman are understandably on the edge, but I'd hate to see either go quite yet. I think Cliff would be a very good setup or 7th-inning guy, and I think Corey has the stuff, if not yet the confidence and know-how, to compete at this level. I hope they have good spring trainings and find themselves a role on the club; it's not like the Jays have tons of mound options at the moment.
I would be extremely interested in seeing Latroy Hawkins in a Jays uniform next year -- though not necessarily as a closer. Hawkins, you may recall, was a disaster as a starter through his first few seasons, but finally began to come around when he went to the pen in 2000. But although he saved 42 games over two seasons, he was still getting hit hard. It was only when he went to middle relief and setup that he became the dominating force he's been since then:
2002: 6-0, 2.13, 65 G, 80 IP, 63 H, 15 BB, 63 K
2003: 9-3, 1.86, 74 G, 77 IP, 69 H, 15 BB, 75 K
He has hardly any platoon splits -- in fact, lefties usually hit worse off him than righties do. Slotting him into the 8th inning of close games would be a tremendous improvement for the bullpen and for the team in general. I really hope JP can snag him.
Which Rincon? Ricardo (I was traded for Brian Giles) isn't all that useful to this team; he still dominates lefties, but righties have been knocking him around pretty good the last few years. I can't see him as a full-time closer, and thanks to Miller and Kershner, the team is already set for lefty relievers. Juan is a pretty highly touted prospect, though at first glance I must admit I'm not sure why. He was a starter most of his minor-league career, and not a terribly impressive one. His IP/K and BB/K rates have not been exciting, and it's not yet clear to me that they'll improve in the bullpen. He's just 24, though, so we'll see. For my money, closing seems to suit Aquilino Lopez right now, so one might as well keep him there and help him work on getting lefties out more consistently.
Jayson Stark is a bright fellow, open to innovative concepts, a good and fun writer, and from all accounts a good guy. I say all that to preface my opinion that his Shannon-for-MVP argument is the dumbest thing I've ever heard him say. The reasons have been set out above in great detail, but I wanted to pile on to the mound of disbelief while I still had the chance.
Was this a shout-out by Geoff to the peanut gallery here at Da Box, I wonder?
Politte and Thurman are understandably on the edge, but I'd hate to see either go quite yet. I think Cliff would be a very good setup or 7th-inning guy, and I think Corey has the stuff, if not yet the confidence and know-how, to compete at this level. I hope they have good spring trainings and find themselves a role on the club; it's not like the Jays have tons of mound options at the moment.
I would be extremely interested in seeing Latroy Hawkins in a Jays uniform next year -- though not necessarily as a closer. Hawkins, you may recall, was a disaster as a starter through his first few seasons, but finally began to come around when he went to the pen in 2000. But although he saved 42 games over two seasons, he was still getting hit hard. It was only when he went to middle relief and setup that he became the dominating force he's been since then:
2002: 6-0, 2.13, 65 G, 80 IP, 63 H, 15 BB, 63 K
2003: 9-3, 1.86, 74 G, 77 IP, 69 H, 15 BB, 75 K
He has hardly any platoon splits -- in fact, lefties usually hit worse off him than righties do. Slotting him into the 8th inning of close games would be a tremendous improvement for the bullpen and for the team in general. I really hope JP can snag him.
Which Rincon? Ricardo (I was traded for Brian Giles) isn't all that useful to this team; he still dominates lefties, but righties have been knocking him around pretty good the last few years. I can't see him as a full-time closer, and thanks to Miller and Kershner, the team is already set for lefty relievers. Juan is a pretty highly touted prospect, though at first glance I must admit I'm not sure why. He was a starter most of his minor-league career, and not a terribly impressive one. His IP/K and BB/K rates have not been exciting, and it's not yet clear to me that they'll improve in the bullpen. He's just 24, though, so we'll see. For my money, closing seems to suit Aquilino Lopez right now, so one might as well keep him there and help him work on getting lefties out more consistently.
Jayson Stark is a bright fellow, open to innovative concepts, a good and fun writer, and from all accounts a good guy. I say all that to preface my opinion that his Shannon-for-MVP argument is the dumbest thing I've ever heard him say. The reasons have been set out above in great detail, but I wanted to pile on to the mound of disbelief while I still had the chance.
Has anyone considered the posibilities of a platoon for the fifth starter slot. Lets imagine Hendrickson and Thurman in this spot in the next season. First of all, whenever possible the front four all pitch on their usual four days rest while our theoretical ambidexterous fifth sits on a off day, and adds depth to a bullpen. Bang, you just got more starts for the front of the rotation. When said creature is needed, play him in a position where he has the most chance of success. For example our right hander starts in Fenway, while the lefthander starts in "The House That Ruth Built". Lefty against a big left hitting lineup, righty against a right hand hitting lineup. If one or the other has a decided advantage (e.g. ground ball/flyball) over a team than the other, so be it, he gets the start. Again the main pupose of this exercise is to give the pitcher the greatest chance for success.
From a strategic viewpoint of view, if say Thurman is running out of gas, bring in Hendrikson, turn the batting order around and exhaust the oppositions bench.
Granted it is not as easy as it sounds. But I never understood the reasoning of having a one pitcher designated as a fifth starter when what is really needed is 4.75 pitchers. The idea of two players stuck in this role is not carved in stone, like the designation "fifth starter". If one performs above expectations, he can be moved up in the order, while another gets a shot at the platoon. It seems a likely way to ease a rookie into the staff or one the reclamation projects.
Well its an idea. One I have long felt deserved some consideration. Speak to me ZLC, is it worthy of consideration?
From a strategic viewpoint of view, if say Thurman is running out of gas, bring in Hendrikson, turn the batting order around and exhaust the oppositions bench.
Granted it is not as easy as it sounds. But I never understood the reasoning of having a one pitcher designated as a fifth starter when what is really needed is 4.75 pitchers. The idea of two players stuck in this role is not carved in stone, like the designation "fifth starter". If one performs above expectations, he can be moved up in the order, while another gets a shot at the platoon. It seems a likely way to ease a rookie into the staff or one the reclamation projects.
Well its an idea. One I have long felt deserved some consideration. Speak to me ZLC, is it worthy of consideration?
From a strategic viewpoint of view, if say Thurman is running out of gas, bring in Hendrikson, turn the batting order around and exhaust the oppositions bench.
I like the idea of a platoon starter, though it's tough to implement if you still want a zillion-man bullpen. It only works where the opposition manager likes to play Matchup Game 79 like Tosca, but in some circumstances it will give you another slight edge.
The problem is, that Tosca being Tosca is likely to want to pull the trigger on a guy who's pitching well, just to get the platoon advantages. I'm not sure giving him more options to "go to the pen" is a good idea.
I like the idea of a platoon starter, though it's tough to implement if you still want a zillion-man bullpen. It only works where the opposition manager likes to play Matchup Game 79 like Tosca, but in some circumstances it will give you another slight edge.
The problem is, that Tosca being Tosca is likely to want to pull the trigger on a guy who's pitching well, just to get the platoon advantages. I'm not sure giving him more options to "go to the pen" is a good idea.
I've never understood why with 11 and 12 man pitching staffs these days that some team wouldn't experiment with a slot handing it to two or three young/rookie pitchers. It has to be a lot easier (especially for young developing pitchers) to get through 3 or 4 innings than to get through 6 or 7 innings. You go through the order 2 or 3 times instead of 3 or 4 times. And in theory, those 2 or 3 pitchers should be available to pitch an inning or three on one or two seperate in between their "start day" so that they get in their work and don't hurt the depth of the pen.
Of course, most teams are forced to do this anyway since many teams have fifth starters that are knocked out early.
Of course, most teams are forced to do this anyway since many teams have fifth starters that are knocked out early.
It has to be a lot easier (especially for young developing pitchers) to get through 3 or 4 innings than to get through 6 or 7 innings.
I don't buy this, especially for young pitchers. It often happens that a pitcher gets off to a rough start and then makes adjustments, ultimately pitching an effective game. By limiting a young pitcher's opportunities to learn in game, change on the fly and experience failure and recovery, you're limiting his development.
I don't buy this, especially for young pitchers. It often happens that a pitcher gets off to a rough start and then makes adjustments, ultimately pitching an effective game. By limiting a young pitcher's opportunities to learn in game, change on the fly and experience failure and recovery, you're limiting his development.
By limiting a young pitcher's opportunities to learn in game, change on the fly and experience failure and recovery, you're limiting his development.
The point is of course not limit the development of the young pitcher but to give him - and therefore the team - an increased oportunity to succeed. Besides isn't the developement of a pitcher what the minor leagues is all about.
And of course the pitchers involved need not be younguns. If you are burdened with a Tanyon Sturtz why not give him the best opportunity to succeed.
Oh, and thank you for the responses. Most kind.
jason.
The point is of course not limit the development of the young pitcher but to give him - and therefore the team - an increased oportunity to succeed. Besides isn't the developement of a pitcher what the minor leagues is all about.
And of course the pitchers involved need not be younguns. If you are burdened with a Tanyon Sturtz why not give him the best opportunity to succeed.
Oh, and thank you for the responses. Most kind.
jason.
The point is of course not limit the development of the young pitcher but to give him - and therefore the team - an increased oportunity to succeed.
In the short term, yes. But it comes at the expense of long term success if your pitchers have service time and cost a lot but are still poorly experienced in terms of the breadth of situations they've pitched in.
Besides isn't the developement of a pitcher what the minor leagues is all about.
You hope so, but rarely do they come up polished.
In the short term, yes. But it comes at the expense of long term success if your pitchers have service time and cost a lot but are still poorly experienced in terms of the breadth of situations they've pitched in.
Besides isn't the developement of a pitcher what the minor leagues is all about.
You hope so, but rarely do they come up polished.
Yes, I see what you mean. I don't know how the theory would work in practice, but it has struck me as a solution to a problem that has plagued baseball for a long time; the black hole that is the back of the starting staff.
Thanks
jason
Thanks
jason