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The thing about the Yankees is that even if you keep the Jason Giambis and the Derek Jeters and the Alex Rodriguezes off the board, they can still send a stealth Robinson Cano out there to beat you with a long ball. The Yanks took the measure of the Jays this season, and it's apparent there's still a sizeable gulf between the two teams. Can the Jays make up that difference between now and next April?
Yankees 8 Blue Jays 4 | 46 comments | Create New Account
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Flex - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#128833) #
I was going to ask this yesterday but it's even more relevant today -- how is it the Yankees can have a farm system supposedly stripped of talent, and yet call up a second baseman who's now a front-runner for rookie of the year?

I ask not from ire or irony, but because I don't know the answer -- did he just spring from nowhere? Was he the one piece of talent in the system they refused to deal away? Was he a marginal talent who blossomed under Torre?

I'd really like to know how a team that picks as low as the Yankees do year after year, and who then trade away all their desireable minor league assets, now have a star rookie on the team.
James W - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#128835) #
I imagine we all changed channels to find a random poorly officiated football game, but the Yankees tacked on another in the 8th, and the final was 8-4.
Jdog - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#128836) #
They always have one or two guys in their system that they really try to keep a hold of but the only guy i really thought was in that situation was Duncan.

Anyways Flex you kind of got me thinking again of my biggest pet peeve regarding JP and his scouting philosophy.

I like the idea of taking more polished college players in the first 3 maybe 4 rounds if there is not a High School talent that blows you away. But i cant understand why JP and his staff continue to take so much college players after the first few rounds. I have no idea where Cano was drafted or if he was just signed out of latin america. I was thinking he might possible be a later round high school pick....regardless whether he is or not, it just makes so much more sense to me to go for the more sure thing (college player) in the first few rounds and make the switch to HS kids who have higher ceilings. Does that make sense? That could be why the Yankees with their lower selection orders can still produce the occasional star.
If someone could show me a study where they looked at all the major leaguers drafted after round 5 i would bet there are a lot more HS kids than college kids. Anyways thats my rant..i didn't see the game today
TJ Caino - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#128837) #
Perhaps because the Yanks Major League talent is so good. If Russ Adams, Aaron Hill and Alex Rios were surrounded by guys like A-Rod, Sheff and Giambi, who can arguably carry a team most nights, they would be under a lot less pressure to perform.

Then again, it is difficult to argue that there is more pressure playing baseball for the Jays than the Yanks. But you know what I mean. Perhaps impetus is a better word.
slitheringslider - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#128838) #
Don't forget today's starter as well, Chien Ming Wang. Who has also done admirably.

As for Cano being the leading ROY candidate, I may beg to differ. I would put Gustavo Chacin and the Oakland trio ahead of Cano, although I would not be surprised at all if he did win the AL ROY.

I ask not from ire or irony, but because I don't know the answer -- did he just spring from nowhere? Was he the one piece of talent in the system they refused to deal away? Was he a marginal talent who blossomed under Torre?

According to Baseball America, at the end of last season, Robinson Cano was the number 2 prospect behind Eric Duncan. But compare to the league, I don't know. My conclusion is that he is probably a B-prospect that is projected to be a average major leaguer, that's my guess. Anyone who have more info please correct me if I am wrong
slitheringslider - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#128841) #
According to Baseball America, at the end of last season, Robinson Cano was the number 2 prospect behind Eric Duncan.

By number 2 prospect, I mean number 2 prospect in the Yankee organization. My bad if it caused any confusion
Nolan - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#128845) #
This is a little off-topic, but I was reading an article by the Chicago newspaper, Sun Times, and they had a section on players who may be on the move this off-season, both through trades and free agency. One caught my eye:

"MARCUS GILES, Braves second baseman
He's eligible for arbitration and has had a rocky relationship with the Braves' front office. He probably will earn $3.5 million next season. Insiders say there is a 50-50 chance he will be traded. Could be had for Todd Walker and Corey Patterson."

I would make a trade for Giles in a heartbeat. If Walker and Patterson would do it, then Hudson and Rios/Cat/Gross would be plenty.
Jordan - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#128846) #
Thanks for the correction, James.

My money for AL ROY is on Huston Street.
King Ryan - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#128847) #
Cano ROY? Screw that. I wouldn't put him in the top 5.

Jonnt Gomes is the man, here. I don't know why he gets no love.
King Ryan - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#128848) #
Obviously I meant to say Jonny Gomes. Sorry about that.
PeteMoss - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#128851) #
I know its not about todays game, but so people see this, I'll post it here. Kinda interesting, although not really that important. (from espn.com)

Miguel Batista earned his 30th save of the season at Yankee Stadium on Saturday afternoon -- and it was one for the ages. Entering with a 7-4 lead but with the bases full in the last of the eighth, Batista fanned Jason Giambi to escape that jam, and then struck out Gary Sheffield, Hideki Matsui and Jorge Posada in the ninth to wrap up the victory.


It was the first time this season that any major leaguer had earned a save in which he faced at least four batters and struck out every one. Only Eric Gagne and Brad Lidge had such saves in 2004; the last American Leaguer with a save of that ilk was Trever Miller of Toronto vs. Baltimore in July 2003.

The top five saves accumulators in major league history are Lee Smith (478), Trevor Hoffman (434), John Franco (424), Dennis Eckersley (390) and Mariano Rivera (377); in none of their 2,103 saves did any of them face at least four batters and strike out each one.

And get this: It was the first time since Baseball first defined saves in 1969 that anyone has earned a save of that type against the Yankees!

Flex - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#128852) #
"Cano ROY? Screw that."

My point wasn't to plump Cano for ROY, but as a 2B hitting .294 with 14 HR he's got a shot. All I'm saying is wow. This from the most depleated system in the Bigs.

Anyway, I agree with the point made about JPR -- polished college players in the first few rounds, possible high ceiling surprises after that makes sense. Going college all the way does seem to limit the star potential of the system.

Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#128854) #
Cano was actually signed as an undrafted free agent out of the Dominican when he was 18. When you don't have high draft picks, you need to get lucky that way from time to time...
mathesond - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#128855) #
One difficulty with drafting HS players in the mid-late rounds is that the signing bonuses commensurate with those rounds isn't always enough to sway them from opting for a college scholarship instead. If a high-ceiling HS player does drop to the 5th round or lower, he's still going to demand a big bonus.
Ron - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#128857) #
From SF

Duds: The Blue Jays had their rookie initiation on Sunday, which meant that several first-year players returned to their lockers to find costumes in place of their street clothes.

There were superheroes (Dustin McGowan as Captain America and Gustavo Chacin as Batman), giant walking food products (Gabe Gross as a banana and Brandon League as a hot dog) and just plain embarrassing garb of every stripe.

Vernon Wells, not far removed from his rookie year and a brief stint in a Hooters outfit, organized the day. Every rookie had his picture taken in the garb and had to wear it on the team's flight to Boston. Even after a tough loss, the clubhouse was alive with laughter at the assorted outfits.

Perhaps the funniest moment came from a casual comment. John-Ford Griffin had to wear a lime green suit with pink lining and matching fedora, an ensemble that drew an approving glance from one of his teammates.

"You got off easy," said Reed Johnson. "That looks good."

I need to see these pictures!
Named For Hank - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#128858) #
Gustavo Chacin as Batman... I would pay really good money to see that.

Oh man, that's a riot.
Pistol - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#128859) #
I guess Batman is a nice compliment to Chacin's evil villian look.
Craig B - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#128860) #
All Dominican players are undrafted free agents, since Dominicans are not subject to the draft.

Cano signed for a bonus of $150,000 which is quite expensive in Dominican terms. Yes, he is another example of the Yankees buying success.
MatO - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#128861) #
This year there were 23 college players and 7 HS players selected in the 5th round. Generally after the first few rounds the number of HS players drafted in each round drops off dramatically, I think it's a matter of their bonus demands outweighing their perceived value. It's only in the later rounds that HS players regain popularity as draft and follows when they choose the JC route.
smcs - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#128862) #
The reason Cano has played so well is because he has been given a solid chance. They trusted him.

The Yankees last 1st round draft pick who blossomed into a solid player was Derek Jeter who was drafted way back in 1992. Although John-Ford Griffin may have something to say about that in a few years. And an argument could be made for Eric Milton.
In comparison, the since 1992, the Jays 1st Round Picks, in order, have been: Shannon Stewart, Chris Carpenter, Kevin Witt, Roy Halladay, Billy Koch, Vernon Wells, Felipe Lopez, Alex Rios, Miguel Negron, Gabe Gross, Russ Adams, Aaron Hill.
The Yankees have relied on Deep Pockets, not Deep Minors.
When a prospect from the Yankees system does play well, it is a surprise. So, they get more press and their value is upped. If he could have been used in a trade last year, he probably would have been traded.
Gerry - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#128865) #
I heard on the radio today that Cano's dad was a Yankee farmhand, might even have pitched for them. So the Yankees probably had the inside track.
AWeb - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#128867) #
I'd assume that R. Cano's Dad is this guy:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/canojo01.shtml

He was also with the Atlanta and houston organizations. Actually, it looks like he was in the Yankees organization for only 6 months. He might have been another victim of the "Yankee forever" machine.
Mick Doherty - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#128869) #
Apparently, Jose named his son for Jackie Robinson, so there may be something genetically predisposed to his second baseman-ness.
Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#128873) #
The Yankees also signed Chien-Ming Wang as a free agent out of Taiwan, which surely involved a fair bit of cash too.

Of course, Aaron Small was signed as a free agent off the Scrap Heap, and he's won the same number of games as their two expensive FA pitchers (Wright and Pavano) combined.

Twilight - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#128876) #
haha, I'd also love to see Chacin as Batman. That would have been hilarious.

Anyway, I could have sworn I remembered Small from somewhere, because I remember wondering how unfortunate it would be to be well over 6 feet tall and have a name like Small.

He pitched 2 innings for Toronto in 1994 at age 22. Didn't do too well. He certainly looks good now, but wow, he took his time developing.
Jobu - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:45 AM EDT (#128878) #
John-Ford Griffin had to wear a lime green suit with pink lining and matching fedora, an ensemble that drew an approving glance from one of his teammates.

"You got off easy," said Reed Johnson. "That looks good."


I can only assume now that that is the way Reed dresses all the time outside of the stadium.
kpataky - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 06:15 AM EDT (#128879) #
Marty Pevey signed a two year contract to coach first for Toronto.
Pistol - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#128880) #
I saw that in the Fordin notes yesterday but forgot to mention it. It's probably good that the bench coach isn't coaching first base anymore - you can only utilize him for half the game.

Does this move mean that a major league first base coach is a better position than a AAA manager? Or does that just depend on the individual?
Flex - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#128881) #
Isn't The Show always better? Wouldn't you rather be a utility player in the big leagues than a star in AAA?
Craig B - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#128890) #
I can only assume now that that is the way Reed dresses all the time outside of the stadium.

Of course when it rains, Sparky turns the jacket inside out so the pink lining is on the outside.

Named For Hank - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#128898) #
All I can think about when I hear that suit described is this Pet Shop Boys cover:

Maldoff - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#128900) #
I know this is off topic, but do people think that Chacin may be in over his head this season? Also, is Bush not as bad as people think? Here at the stat lines for two pitchers. You tell me which one is which:

A - ERA: 3.66, WHIP: 1.38, K/9: 5.54, BB/9: 3.24, K/BB: 1.64
B - ERA: 4.45, WHIP: 1.26, K/9: 4.95, BB/9: 1.94, K/BB: 2.38

I tend to think Chacin will fall back next year, while Bush will step up.
Flex - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#128901) #
I think attitude will have a lot to say about that. Chacin looks like a guy with his head on straight. He seems unflappable both on and off the mound. Bush has a lot going for him, but while there was a lot of praise for his "poise" last year, I think he's shown that he can be pretty high-strung and has a slightly angry, negative demeanor.

That's based purely on observation, so it may not be true. But I'd say this is a case where stats don't tell the whole story.
Mike Green - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#128905) #
Bush has won plaudits not just last year, but throughout his collegiate and pro career. He can be a little nasty on the mound. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Chacin is a different type altogether, but has certainly cultivated the detached persona well. Pitchers are definitely a breed apart.

I would love to see both of them in the rotation for years to come.
sweat - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#128906) #
i wound't mind seeing how many double plays each pitcher had behind him. A groundball pitcher is gonna get a lot more of those, and keep his ERA down.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#128908) #
I think the stats tell the complete and utter story here - if you include HR/9. Chacin keeps the ball in the park a lot better than Bush does, which helps explain the difference in ERA.
Flex - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#128912) #
Hmmm. Maybe that's why Bush looks angry.
Mike Green - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#128915) #
It's a little more complicated than that, I think. Here's the raw data. Chacin gave up .09 HRs/flyball; Bush gave up .14HRs/flyball. There is some research that suggests that it's very unusual to deviate more than .02 HR/flyball from the average .11 HR/flyball. The bottom line though is that they were both above average pitchers this season, with Chacin somewhat better than Bush but probably not as much as the ERA and W-L would suggest.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#128916) #
Heh. Could be. Or maybe it's a pain in the neck caused by whiplash. :)
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#128919) #
It's a little more complicated than that, I think. Here's the raw data. Chacin gave up .09 HRs/flyball; Bush gave up .14HRs/flyball. There is some research that suggests that it's very unusual to deviate more than .02 HR/flyball from the average .11 HR/flyball.

Interesting. I've never heard about that before, but it intuitively makes sense.

I wonder if Bush might end up being in the "very unusual" group due to his odd statistical profile (low strikeouts almost no walks). Radke's rate is .16 this year - it would be interesting to see what it was in previous years.

Mike Green - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#128920) #
THT did not publish HR/Fly data in 2004, but did publish G/F and HR/9. Here is the link for all AL pitchers. Both Bush and Radke's ratios seem entirely normal; if anything, their HR/9 rate looks at first blush to be a little lower than one might expect in light of the K rate and the G/F.
Pistol - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#128921) #
"Isn't The Show always better? Wouldn't you rather be a utility player in the big leagues than a star in AAA? "

Well, I would think it's different for coaches. If you were a GM looking to hire a manager wouldn't you consider the better experience to be a AAA manager than a 1B coach in the majors?

Maybe it's not, it just strikes me that way.
Flex - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#128922) #
I think it's definitely good to have "Manager of AAA team" on your resume. But once you've got that, it's probably better to be on the big-league staff so that people in a position to hire you get to know you up close. I think more guys make the jump from big league coach to big league manager than from minor league manager to big league manager. That's just a hunch but it seems like the natural career progression.

Also, I think after a while of riding the buses in AAA, a coach would be happy just to fly and stay in nice hotels for a change.
Jordan - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#128923) #
I would think you'd get a lot more visibility with the decision-makers as a major-league coach than as a minor-league manager. I don't remember too many managers hired away from other organizations' minor-league teams; it's a more usual route for a ballclub to hire its own farm-system manager, and not often even then. The Blue Jays' last three managers have come from the big-league coaching staff (Gibbons, Tosca) and the broadcast booth (Martinez).

Personally, trading up from Best Western and bus rides to the Hilton and charter flights would be all the incentive I'd need to take the promotion.
Jordan - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#128924) #
Same good idea, five minutes too late.
Flex - Monday, September 26 2005 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#128932) #
But you said it so much better.
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