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Dave Bush overcame a very shaky start, and Dustin McGowan contributed two perfect innings of relief, but it was all for naught. The Jays could only push across one unearned run, and according to GameDay, made outs with 12 runners on base. Gustavo Chacin will try to salvage a split in the nightcap, going up against Curt Schilling.
Red Sox 3, Blue Jays 1 | 18 comments | Create New Account
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Wildrose - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#128983) #
I wonder if McGowan would be better served coming out of the bullpen in the majors in this role, rather than returning to AAA as a starter next year. He's looked pretty solid in relief. I honestly don't know which course of action is better.
Mike Green - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#128984) #
He did struggle in the starting role earlier, and he is coming off TJ. That'd be two indicators for the Earl Weaver approach, in my view.
Nigel - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#128985) #
I'm actually a fan of the Weaver school of breaking in new starters but I think the numbers next year will work against McGowan taking on that role. If there's one thing that the Jays organization has by the truckload its pitchers who profile best at the backend of a bullpen/7th inning men - Batista, Downs, Walker, Chulk, Marcum, Rosario. That's not even taking into account that if a free agent starter is brought in it might push someone like Bush back into that role.

I see McGowan getting 15-20 starts at AAA next year with a mid to late season call up.
R Billie - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#128986) #
McGowan can hit 98 as a reliever with some command. That's probably enough to give the Jays pause.

I don't think there's any question you'd rather see him develop into a starter if possible. He's the one guy on the team right now who could challenge Roy with his stuff alone.

I think the off-season and spring training should determine where he ends up. If the Jays end up scoring big and putting an attractive team on the field in 2006 then you can roll the dice and leave McGowan in the bullpen to give you another power arm to access.

If your off-season does not go as well as expected, then I think you send McGowan down for three months to prepare him for a more prominent role in the long term as a starter.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#128987) #
What a depressing game. Bush's usual first inning followed by semi-excellent to excellent pitching the rest of the way and 9 blind mice at bat. This is getting depressing. From an offensive point of view there is not one of these guys that is above average for his position and precious few that are even average.

Hilly, Koskie and Hinske DESPERATELY need to take Pilates. They NEED trunk flexability.

If we're gonna go with pitching and defence we better get AJ. But at 45 million over three years...looks like a job for some other team.

JP, I do not envy your offseason.
Flex - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#128988) #
Does a guy who went 12 and 12, and wilted in the midst of his team's run for the playoffs, and lashed out at his teammates and management, get $15 million a year?

Not on the planet I live on, if I have anything to say about it. (Which of course, as might be obvious, I don't.)
VBF - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#128989) #
I don't know if I'm going to hold him against what he did. I don't know if his character is best suited for this team. I can imagine though, that with Brad Arnsberg at his side, he's probably a whole different person. Was it not the same Florida management that fired Arny in the first place? I wouldn't be surprised if there was a long lasting grudge because of it.

To contrast Flex's thoughts, I see a pitcher that wants to win at all costs, and people with winning attitudes often get on JP's good side. And mine.
Twilight - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#128990) #
I agree. If they are going for pitching and defense, they are going to need five starting pitchers who are all winners. But you can't expect your pitching to shut out every single team you face. Even if you had a rotation with Clemens in his prime, Johnson in his prime, Maddux in his prime, Roy Halladay and heck...Nolan Ryan...you're just not gonna blank the other team every game. You need more than 1 run to win.

A pitching/defense combo is great, in fact I would rather see a good pitching rotation and 2-0, 3-2 wins, but they need at least a couple hitters who can score runs.
Twilight - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#128991) #
VBF I agree with what you just wrote 100%.
Ron - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#128992) #
I know from watching almost every game this season, the Jays have had trouble scoring runs (as well as hitting the long ball) but they are hovering around the top 10 in terms of runs scored.

Andrew K - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#128993) #
Ron,

Obviously you have to disregard NL teams in the runs scored comparison, as they have a certain disadvantage. And then correct for park factors. I don't have the data to hand, but the Jays are about 10th in the AL once you take that into account. Not good enough, not nearly.
TJ Caino - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#128994) #
According to Baseball Prospectus the Jays are 2nd last in EQA.

That is not good. If we want to have a chance of making the playoffs next year, our offence has to improve.
Jonathan - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#128995) #
Excellent article today on Baseball Prospectus about the emerging Devil Rays. That may read as a typo, but it's bang on. Anyone thinking the Jays can just wait for the Yanks age-induced demise in order to take on the Sox should really take a look at the Devil Rays' lineup - especially the numbers they have put up in the 2nd half of 2005.

Crawford
Baldelli (injured)
Cantu
Gomes
Huff
Gathright

Young and Upton - these guys aren't even in the majors and they are top-flight prospects ready to mash in the bigs.

As a whole, this bunch has a ceiling as high as any in baseball, and that's not including whatever they will do with Lugo this offseason. If they can get some pitching to complement Kazmir, they will be tough. I don't know why Lou would want to leave this bunch. They are exciting.

The Jays system has produced a series of middling players with limited ceilings and only complemented them with signings equaling more of the same. We are now paying for it - a glut of big-league useful players but none with star potential.

This offseason is going to be a challenge to rid the team of 3-4 of these players (choose from Adams, Hill, Hudson, Koskie, Hillenbrand, Hinske, Rios, Cat, Johnson) and come back with two high-ceiling hitters in return.

I think the Jays conundrum echoes the earlier Toronto Star article saying that JP's reliance on college-tested players has netted low-risk, middling-return players. Forgetting about international signings (Rios, the one high-ceiling player in the above bunch was an Ash signee) has left the organization high and dry on real talent that puts butts in the seats.
Dave Till - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#128996) #
Anyone thinking the Jays can just wait for the Yanks age-induced demise in order to take on the Sox should really take a look at the Devil Rays' lineup

I haven't found the article yet, but I'm wondering: do the D-Rays have any pitching coming up? They're last in the AL in runs allowed, and none of the guys you mentioned are pitchers.

The Jays and D-Rays are like separate halves of a potentially really great team: the Jays have the arms, and the Drays have the bats.

Ryan Day - Tuesday, September 27 2005 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#128997) #
The Devil Rays also have a whole bunch of guys playing the same few positions: Huff, Gomes, Gathright, Crawford, Baldelli and Young are all OF/DH; BJ Upton might end up there, too. That's an admittedly good position for making trades, but Tampa hasn't done the greatest job at turning their raw talent into wins so far...

McGowan might be a good fit for Pete Walker's role for at least the first half of next season: Long relief, spot start, then maybe join the rotation full-time around the all-star break.
slitheringslider - Wednesday, September 28 2005 @ 12:51 AM EDT (#129006) #
The D-Rays is definitely an intriguing trading partner. What would Dustin McGowan fetch us from their system? Or maybe Dustin McGowan + a B arm for Delmon Young? Doubt the D-Rays would trade Young, but we could always dream.
Chuck - Wednesday, September 28 2005 @ 08:04 AM EDT (#129008) #
The D-Rays is definitely an intriguing trading partner.

I've proposed Towers for Gomes a couple of times.

Jonny German - Wednesday, September 28 2005 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#129014) #
If they can get some pitching to complement Kazmir, they will be tough.

Absolutely true. But if you think the Jays have big task ahead of them in looking to add two big bats, look at what the Devil Fishies are facing - they need 3 solid starting pitchers and a couple good relievers.

The Jays system has produced a series of middling players with limited ceilings and only complemented them with signings equaling more of the same.

This is the common view, but as far as I'm concerned it doesn't make sense. Are you telling me that Russ Adams, Aaron Hill, Alex Rios, Guillermo Quiroz, Dustin McGowan, Brandon League, Zach Jackson, Casey Janssen, Dave Purcey, Curtis Thigpen, Adam Lind, Ricky Romero all... ALL!... have limited ceilings and no star potential? And these are all guy who could see the bigs by the end of next year. As far as that goes, if they were Devil Rays they'd probably all have already seen the big leagues.

I've proposed Towers for Gomes a couple of times.

I think this is a potentially good trade for both sides, but the difficulty will be getting the D-Rays to see it that way. In fact, it's better for them in that they'd be getting a much more known commodity... Gomes could still go Josh Phelps.

Red Sox 3, Blue Jays 1 | 18 comments | Create New Account
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