{{Comment withheld.}}
Add Manny to the deferred HoF heap. When enough time has passed, those implicated in steroids will gain passage. But I don't think that will be any time soon.
I assume the first ballot post was in jest.
The only question about the first ballot is not whether he'll get selected, it's whether he'll get enough votes to stay on a second year.
You rarely see unanimity among 30 GM's, but they had it right on not wanting anything to do with this guy. Even Tampa only took him as Boras made it a condition of signing Damon.
The only question about the first ballot is not whether he'll get selected, it's whether he'll get enough votes to stay on a second year.
You rarely see unanimity among 30 GM's, but they had it right on not wanting anything to do with this guy. Even Tampa only took him as Boras made it a condition of signing Damon.
19 seasons and a slash line of .312/.411/.585 -- hitting against pitchers benefitting from the reduced recovery times from taking steroid. Hall of Famer.
On a more relevant issue anyone hear what the actual banned substance found was -- if he tested positive for pot/cocaine we would have exactly the same information we have now, would he not be facing the same sort of suspension?
On a more relevant issue anyone hear what the actual banned substance found was -- if he tested positive for pot/cocaine we would have exactly the same information we have now, would he not be facing the same sort of suspension?
I said it in a different thread, but seemingly only Manny Ramirez is flaky enough to fail two drug tests under the current system, which is only there to catch the mistakes and morons. Either baseball has come up with the best drug testing in the world and everyone else stopped taking PEDs, or Manny is the dumbest one of the bunch.
Career line against the Jays: 813 PA, .279/.384/.563, 54HR, 140 RBI. More HRs against the Jays of anyone except the Yankees (55), but relatively speaking, Manny wasn't very good against Toronto. He's in the pile with Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro, Clemens - clearly great players, but won't make the HoF until something radically changes.
Career line against the Jays: 813 PA, .279/.384/.563, 54HR, 140 RBI. More HRs against the Jays of anyone except the Yankees (55), but relatively speaking, Manny wasn't very good against Toronto. He's in the pile with Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro, Clemens - clearly great players, but won't make the HoF until something radically changes.
I wouldn't make any assumptions about what will happen with the PED crowd (from Bonds and Clemens to A-Rod and Manny). The three most notable players not in the Hall of Fame are Rose, Joe Jackson and Bad Bill Dahlen, and it wouldn't shock me at all if none of them make it.
Subjectively, I have a similar view of Ramirez as I do for Bonds and A-Rod. I doubt that he was using PEDs when he arrived in the majors, and that he was a great, great hitter without them. It is a shame.
Subjectively, I have a similar view of Ramirez as I do for Bonds and A-Rod. I doubt that he was using PEDs when he arrived in the majors, and that he was a great, great hitter without them. It is a shame.
As a long time Manny supporter this makes me sad.
I think Chuck is probably right. Whereas attitudes regarding throwing World Series games are extremely unlikely to change, no one can say for sure what people will think about PEDs in 20 or 30 years. For all we know now, Bonds and McGwire may someday be seen as pioneers. Granted, I'd be surprised. (Although not nearly as surprised as if I'm still around to see it....)
To change the subject - we were talking a little about concussions the other day and there's an excellent piece in today's Star about exactly what happens to the brain when they occur.
To change the subject - we were talking a little about concussions the other day and there's an excellent piece in today's Star about exactly what happens to the brain when they occur.
I have a sneaking suspicion that he never took steroids. Well, I should say I don't think he used PEDs in the systematic way that Bonds used PEDs (even if he did not know that they were PEDs) or in the way I suspect Jason Giambi or Marion Jones, or anyone connected to BALCO. If Manny did, I would bet it was like A-Rod says he took Primobolan, randomly with no plan and no evidence that it actually did anything (A-Rod's words). If Manny did, it was probably like Mo Vaughn was accused of in the Mitchell Report. Vaughn was just too lazy or too stupid to follow a cycle schedule. Manny just doesn't strike me as a guy who would be able to keep something like this under wraps. He would have left syringes in his locker just like he left paychecks in his glove box. He tested positive in 2009 for a female fertility drug that is known to be used to restart natural testosterone production after a steroid cycle. Depending on what he tested positive for this time around, there is no proof that he ever took anything, knowingly or unknowingly, that was explicitly banned by MLB and designed to be taken for the purpose of enhancing one's performance.
For me, I think that he is a no-doubt, surefire Hall of Famer. He is undeniably one of the greatest hitters of my generation, as well as one of the worst defenders and most eccentric personalities. If this is where the line is being drawn into the sand, then I don't think anybody can be put into the Hall of Fame. Can you say with 100% certainty that John Smoltz or Greg Maddux or Griffey or Frank Thomas never used steroids? The worst part is that we are going to have to read articles about this for the next 20 years by self-congratulating media members acting as the moralizing force in the discussion, as they keep out Bonds, Clemens, Manny and McGwire and maybe Piazza. It's an absolute shame that he went out this way, but he deserves to make one fantastic speech when he gets into Cooperstown. I think he should be in, but I ultimately don't care about who did or who didn't, just that same that the fact that Willie Mays took greenies or that Ty Cobb was a gigantic racist and a dirty baseball player or that Pete Rose bet on his own team to win doesn't change the fact that they are Hall of Famers.
For me, I think that he is a no-doubt, surefire Hall of Famer. He is undeniably one of the greatest hitters of my generation, as well as one of the worst defenders and most eccentric personalities. If this is where the line is being drawn into the sand, then I don't think anybody can be put into the Hall of Fame. Can you say with 100% certainty that John Smoltz or Greg Maddux or Griffey or Frank Thomas never used steroids? The worst part is that we are going to have to read articles about this for the next 20 years by self-congratulating media members acting as the moralizing force in the discussion, as they keep out Bonds, Clemens, Manny and McGwire and maybe Piazza. It's an absolute shame that he went out this way, but he deserves to make one fantastic speech when he gets into Cooperstown. I think he should be in, but I ultimately don't care about who did or who didn't, just that same that the fact that Willie Mays took greenies or that Ty Cobb was a gigantic racist and a dirty baseball player or that Pete Rose bet on his own team to win doesn't change the fact that they are Hall of Famers.
or that Pete Rose bet on his own team to win doesn't change the fact that they are Hall of Famers.
I disagree with only this one - first, there's no reason to believe Rose about anything, given his story changed from "I don't bet" to "I don't bet on baseball" to "I only bet on other teams" to "I bet on my own team, but only to win". Aside from the problems with even betting on your own team (hey, why not burn the bullpen tonight, no money on the game tomorrow) andd his constantly changing story to whatever he thinks might get him forgiven by the commissioner, second, MLB has made it clear for almsot 100 years that betting on the game gets you kicked out forever. Rose broke the one rule that was put in writing, on clubhouse walls, that would get you thrown out of baseball. Great player, but he shouldn't ever get in.
The HoF has a major problem in 20 years if the best players from this generation don't make it - no one from my generation (Gen X/Y) will take it seriously. You go to a Hall of Fame to relive childhood memories and tell stories about it. If the best players aren't there, then why would anyone want to go? I don't think the Tris Speaker exhibit is bringing in the crowds anymore...
I disagree with only this one - first, there's no reason to believe Rose about anything, given his story changed from "I don't bet" to "I don't bet on baseball" to "I only bet on other teams" to "I bet on my own team, but only to win". Aside from the problems with even betting on your own team (hey, why not burn the bullpen tonight, no money on the game tomorrow) andd his constantly changing story to whatever he thinks might get him forgiven by the commissioner, second, MLB has made it clear for almsot 100 years that betting on the game gets you kicked out forever. Rose broke the one rule that was put in writing, on clubhouse walls, that would get you thrown out of baseball. Great player, but he shouldn't ever get in.
The HoF has a major problem in 20 years if the best players from this generation don't make it - no one from my generation (Gen X/Y) will take it seriously. You go to a Hall of Fame to relive childhood memories and tell stories about it. If the best players aren't there, then why would anyone want to go? I don't think the Tris Speaker exhibit is bringing in the crowds anymore...
If this is where the line is being drawn into the sand, then I don't think anybody can be put into the Hall of Fame. Can you say with 100% certainty that John Smoltz or Greg Maddux or Griffey or Frank Thomas never used steroids? The worst part is that we are going to have to read articles about this for the next 20 years by self-congratulating media members acting as the moralizing force in the discussion, as they keep out Bonds, Clemens, Manny and McGwire and maybe Piazza.
Ramirez tested positive three times, in 2003, 2009 and 2011. I doubt very much that he started using steroids just when major league baseball ran their first tests in 2003, so unless you're a member of the OJ jury it's a safe assumption he was using before then too. I don't know when he started, but it was obviously before 2003, and given that he tested positive at least three times over an 8 year period, it's also obvious that this wasn't a one-off 'mistake' as Rodriguez disingenuously claimed.
Second, while you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as 'moralizing', it's plain that the PED users don't agree with you. None of the people you mention (Bonds, Clemens etc) has said that they believe taking PED's is ok. In fact everyone of them denies it (except to this point Ramirez if I"m not mistaken). All of the others routinely get up and lie like schoolboys in a schoolyard, including under oath, and say they never knowingly did such a thing. None of them shares your view that it's not an indictment of their performance. I surmise the reason every one of them humiliates themselves by lying is because the alternative is to admit that their 'achievements' are tarnished by having been derived from a chemistry lab and a needle.
And if there's any doubt about that last point, that these achievements derive from a needle or cream, it's obvious that Ramirez believed they did. He continued to use steroids having already tested positive twice, which indicates he had no faith that he was 'the greatest hitter in a generation' without them. He risked, and lost, his career in order to keep using. Whatever confidence others claim in his innate abilities, it's obvious that this optimistic view wasn't shared by Ramirez.
I doubt very much that the people you mention will ever be selected to the Hall, either by voters or the veteran's committee. I can't really see MIke Schmidt, Johnny Bench and Tom Seaver sitting down and saying "Hey, we really have to get the steroid-users into the Hall". Can't see that happening.
Moreover, I doubt very much that MLB, or the HOF Itself, is concerned by their absence. I suspect that the percentage of people who actually visit Cooperstown is much lower among those who advocate for the PED users than it is for those who don't.
Instead, I think there can be an internet HOF for the PED users. Rather than having Roger Clemens' picture up near the Big Train, Tom Seaver or Christy Matthewson, he can be in an internet Hall, where internet PED advocates can visit. The internet Hall can have plaques, just like the real Hall and Rogers' can read:
Roger Clemens. Pronounced the greatest pitcher of the post-WWII era by PED fans, after resurrecting his career in his mid-30's. After not being re-signed by the Red Sox, Roger moved to the Blue Jays in 1997 where he hooked up with trainer Brian MacNamee. MacNamee would inject steroids into Roger's butt until Clemens butt became creviced and collapsed in some areas from the steroid injections.
Once hooked up with MacNamee, Clemens won the Cy Young award for two consecutive seasons in Toronto, and then twice more with the Yankees, including being the oldest player ever to win the award at age 42, despite not having received any votes for the 4 years prior to hooking up with MacNamee.
Claims that his relationship with 15 year-old singer Mindy McReady, which lasted 10 years, did not involve statutory rape. Claims that MacNamee framed him for some reason, although Andy Pettite confirmed the accuracy of MacNamee's allegations in respect of himself. Accused of perjuring himself to Congress. Had great k/9 and k/bb ratios, and WAR.
Above the writing on the plaque, where the picture would normally go, there could be a picture of a cyst-covered butt with a needle sticking out it.
Lastly, there's no need to prove that others didn't use PED's. First of all, one doesn't prove negatives, and second there's proof that the guys you mention, especially Ramirez who this started off being about, did.
Ramirez tested positive three times, in 2003, 2009 and 2011. I doubt very much that he started using steroids just when major league baseball ran their first tests in 2003, so unless you're a member of the OJ jury it's a safe assumption he was using before then too. I don't know when he started, but it was obviously before 2003, and given that he tested positive at least three times over an 8 year period, it's also obvious that this wasn't a one-off 'mistake' as Rodriguez disingenuously claimed.
Second, while you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as 'moralizing', it's plain that the PED users don't agree with you. None of the people you mention (Bonds, Clemens etc) has said that they believe taking PED's is ok. In fact everyone of them denies it (except to this point Ramirez if I"m not mistaken). All of the others routinely get up and lie like schoolboys in a schoolyard, including under oath, and say they never knowingly did such a thing. None of them shares your view that it's not an indictment of their performance. I surmise the reason every one of them humiliates themselves by lying is because the alternative is to admit that their 'achievements' are tarnished by having been derived from a chemistry lab and a needle.
And if there's any doubt about that last point, that these achievements derive from a needle or cream, it's obvious that Ramirez believed they did. He continued to use steroids having already tested positive twice, which indicates he had no faith that he was 'the greatest hitter in a generation' without them. He risked, and lost, his career in order to keep using. Whatever confidence others claim in his innate abilities, it's obvious that this optimistic view wasn't shared by Ramirez.
I doubt very much that the people you mention will ever be selected to the Hall, either by voters or the veteran's committee. I can't really see MIke Schmidt, Johnny Bench and Tom Seaver sitting down and saying "Hey, we really have to get the steroid-users into the Hall". Can't see that happening.
Moreover, I doubt very much that MLB, or the HOF Itself, is concerned by their absence. I suspect that the percentage of people who actually visit Cooperstown is much lower among those who advocate for the PED users than it is for those who don't.
Instead, I think there can be an internet HOF for the PED users. Rather than having Roger Clemens' picture up near the Big Train, Tom Seaver or Christy Matthewson, he can be in an internet Hall, where internet PED advocates can visit. The internet Hall can have plaques, just like the real Hall and Rogers' can read:
Roger Clemens. Pronounced the greatest pitcher of the post-WWII era by PED fans, after resurrecting his career in his mid-30's. After not being re-signed by the Red Sox, Roger moved to the Blue Jays in 1997 where he hooked up with trainer Brian MacNamee. MacNamee would inject steroids into Roger's butt until Clemens butt became creviced and collapsed in some areas from the steroid injections.
Once hooked up with MacNamee, Clemens won the Cy Young award for two consecutive seasons in Toronto, and then twice more with the Yankees, including being the oldest player ever to win the award at age 42, despite not having received any votes for the 4 years prior to hooking up with MacNamee.
Claims that his relationship with 15 year-old singer Mindy McReady, which lasted 10 years, did not involve statutory rape. Claims that MacNamee framed him for some reason, although Andy Pettite confirmed the accuracy of MacNamee's allegations in respect of himself. Accused of perjuring himself to Congress. Had great k/9 and k/bb ratios, and WAR.
Above the writing on the plaque, where the picture would normally go, there could be a picture of a cyst-covered butt with a needle sticking out it.
Lastly, there's no need to prove that others didn't use PED's. First of all, one doesn't prove negatives, and second there's proof that the guys you mention, especially Ramirez who this started off being about, did.
The sudden departure of Manny Ramirez will surely leave a void in the entertainment spectrum, but it can't hurt the Jays' chances of finishing ahead of Tampa this season. For those of you you haven't seen this New Yorker profile on Ramirez from 2007, it's most definitely worth the read. It's unlikely we'll see another player like Manny, they broke the mold after he came along.
ComeByDeanChance, fantastic comment(s).
Isn't it funny how personalities play such a big role in how we perceive cheaters?
Clemens was a dickhead - no sympathy and much hate from fans.
Bonds was a dickhead - no sympathy outside of SF.
Rodriguez is a dickhead - gets no sympathy, but he played it smart by only admitting temporary use.
McGwire was aloof/quiet - general "gee, no kidding?" attitude by fans re: his roiding, and less harsh moralizing than Clemens and Bonds.
Ramirez is a goof - fans are just rolling their eyes at this point
Isn't it funny how personalities play such a big role in how we perceive cheaters?
Clemens was a dickhead - no sympathy and much hate from fans.
Bonds was a dickhead - no sympathy outside of SF.
Rodriguez is a dickhead - gets no sympathy, but he played it smart by only admitting temporary use.
McGwire was aloof/quiet - general "gee, no kidding?" attitude by fans re: his roiding, and less harsh moralizing than Clemens and Bonds.
Ramirez is a goof - fans are just rolling their eyes at this point
Agree and disagree Powder Blues. More than rolling eyes going on with Ramirez. He's taking a beating today in the press for example. And for another example, I like Manny tons more than any of those other guys just because he doesn't seem like a cardboard cut-out player like so many ballplayers do -- and that swing was a thing of beauty -- but I don't have a shred more sympathy for his case from an ethical point of view. On the other hand, if I was going to road-trip with one of those guys -- I'd choose Manny -- so long as he wasn't driving.
"Can you say with 100% certainty that John Smoltz or Greg Maddux or Griffey or Frank Thomas never used steroids?"
Of course not. But we can say there is (as far as I know) no evidence whatsoever to suggest they did. The same cannot be said for Bonds, Clemens, and Manny.
Look, I think there's a lot of absurd paranoia about who took what. It's ridiculous that Jeff Bagwell seems to have been blacklisted because he hit a lot of home runs and played on the same team as Ken Caminiti, and players like Jose Bautista shouldn't be accused of cheating just because they have a sudden improvement.
But some players have been caught, and some have had credible evidence against them presented, and the extent to which they cheated is a valid point when it comes to voting players into the Hall of Fame. The rules, after all, say "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."
Of course not. But we can say there is (as far as I know) no evidence whatsoever to suggest they did. The same cannot be said for Bonds, Clemens, and Manny.
Look, I think there's a lot of absurd paranoia about who took what. It's ridiculous that Jeff Bagwell seems to have been blacklisted because he hit a lot of home runs and played on the same team as Ken Caminiti, and players like Jose Bautista shouldn't be accused of cheating just because they have a sudden improvement.
But some players have been caught, and some have had credible evidence against them presented, and the extent to which they cheated is a valid point when it comes to voting players into the Hall of Fame. The rules, after all, say "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."