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It has happened, Aaron Hill is gone, along with John McDonald for Kelly Johnson via the Jays website.

Johnson is a free agent after this season, as are Hill and McDonald. He has hit for an 88 OPS+ this year, but had a 127 last year for the Diamondbacks. More as it becomes available.

In 2010 Johnson was a star, hitting 284/370/496 for a 127 OPS+. His defense has been solid according to UZR lately (7.7 UZR per 150 in 2010, 6.1 this year) after being poor early on in his career (-5 and -7 UZR per 150 his first two seasons at 2B). This year his hitting dropped drastically, down to 209/287/412 - aka JPA territory.

As to peaks, Hill's best year was 2009 - 286/330/499 114 OPS+ with one other season over 92 for OPS+. Johnson's was last year 284/370/496 for a 127 OPS+, the third time he was over 100 for OPS+.

As to salary, Johnson was making $5.85 million, Hill $5 million, McDonald $1.5 million so if you assume a call-up replaces McDonald you get a tiny drop in payroll (down to a pro-rated $6.35 million vs $6.5 million for Hill/McDonald).

Again, a great case of buying low, but also selling low on Hill. Pre-season the Diamondbacks were looking for a quality starting pitcher for Johnson, now they had to take a pair of soon to be free agents who are south of 650 for OPS.
Hill & McDonald for Kelly Johnson | 169 comments | Create New Account
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Paul D - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#241992) #

Here's why I think the deal went down:

You need a 2b for next year.  You look around and see that the best 2b available via either trade or FA, is Kelly Johnson.

Problem is, Johnson will cost you a draft pick (I think?  Is this true).

So what do you do?  Trade two of your own FAs who you werenít going to offer arbitration to so you can get Johnson, then resign him without giving up the draft pick.

For Arizona they getÖ. the hope that Hill bounces back to 2009.  I canít imagine them picking up his option though.  I don't understand the trade from their point of view actually.



Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#241993) #
How does this keep happening?

Should we have known when the Wandy Rodriguez rumors started to heat up that AA was in on someone else?
Matthew E - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#241994) #
I wonder what the advantage is here that makes it worth doing. Frees up a roster spot; that's one thing. Maybe Johnson is more likely to bring back a draft pick on the free agent market than Hill is? Other than that I guess I'd have to go with Paul D's reasoning.
rpriske - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#241995) #

A head scratcher for sure. Toronto gets someone cheaper and... better?

Okay, maybe he has less upside but Hill's potential has been evaporating over the last couple of years.

Ryan Day - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#241997) #
I ... have no feelings about this at all.

I'll miss McDonald - though it wouldn't shock me if the Jays re-signed him - and even Hill, though I cringe every time he comes to the plate. On the plus side, it'll be nice to see them with a shot at the playoffs.

Johnson could be awesome, like he was in 2010, or he could be lousy, like he is currently and was in 2009. Compensation picks could be nice, but that would require a guy hitting .209 to turn down arbitration. I don't know how often that happens.

Johnson reminds me, superficially, of Marcus Giles, who also spontaneously fell apart in his late 20s.

92-93 - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#241999) #
Johnson costs more than Hill.

The Jays might still be in on Wandy.

I wonder if trading JMac increases Hechavarria's chances for a Sept. callup.
China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#242000) #

Paul D probably has it correct.  And here's some support from MLBTR about AA's possible plan:   "maybe he's just more inclined to offer arbitration to Johnson than Hill."

dan gordon - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#242001) #
I think they don't want to offer Hill arbitration after they refuse his options, as he might accept.  They can offer Johnson arb because they're OK with it if he accepts, and they get a draft pick if he leaves.  The idea about being able to sign Johnson without losing a pick would work if Johnson is a Type A.  Somebody on the other thread said he's a Type B.
Mike Green - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#242002) #
Hill is 2 years off a very good year; Johnson is 1.  Check.
85bluejay - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#242003) #
Essentially, this is a audition for Johnson - AA  wanted him 2 yrs. ago but Johnson wanted to play 2nd & Hill was there - if Johnson bat wakes up, the Jays will try to sign him, if not then the Jays will take the pick. now 4 LHB in lineup - A good side benefit is that McDonald will likely not be back next year - Mike McCoy has to be happy
uglyone - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#242004) #
I am madly in love with our GM.

Just filled in the biggest hole on the team with a guy who's been top-10 borderline top-5 at that position the last few years.

Over the last 3 seasons amongst 2B Johnson ranks 8th in wOBA and 7th in UZR/150.
Forkball - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#242005) #
I think it's obvious Hill is done.  His OBP has been .270 the last two seasons after what seems like an obvious career year/peak at age 27.  Getting traded pretty much says the Jays agree.

The Jays have apparently wanted Johnson for awhile, and originally in LF, IIRC.  I would imagine he's the 2B option for the rest of the year, and a possibility for next year.  His slash lines aren't much better than Hill's right now and he's a FA after the season.  Given his production and salary this year you wouldn't offer him arbitration.

My guess is that the Jays see Johnson as a possible solution for next year and the rest of the year is effectively a tryout.  Perhaps their scouts see something in Johnson that they can adjust to get him to the 2007, 2008, and 2010 production and not the 2009 and 2011 production.
China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#242007) #
One correction on Paul D's post:  Johnson was currently only a Type B free agent in the NL, so the Jays could have signed him without losing a draft pick.  However, I suppose there was a slight risk that he could turn into a Type A if he went on a hitting streak in the last few weeks of the season, which might be the reason why AA grabbed him now.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#242009) #
Very weird trade for Arizona. They are fighting for 1st place with the Giants and they trade down this year at 2B and get a utility infielder. With no cash savings. Very, very odd.
92-93 - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#242010) #
The thing I like most about Johnson other than the obvious OBP skills is his left-handedness. That's big for a team locked into Bautista/Escobar/Lawrie/Arencibia for the foreseeable future.
sam - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#242011) #
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the general presumption that Hill would accept arbitration if his options are declined, thereby negating his potential for draft picks? And isn't Johnson more likely to decline arbitration and test the open market, thereby netting us a Type B pick?

I'm confused as well. My understanding however, is Johnson brings more to the table than Hill but at this point that seems largely irrelevant considering we're not in contention.

Sad to see both Johnny Mac and Aaron Hill go, but could see either one potentially resign with us this offseason, no?
Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#242012) #
The amazing thing is that at the moment, the best player of the three may be John McDonald.
Brent S - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#242013) #
Earlier in the month, Johnson was dropped in order from his usual 2 spot, all the way to 7-8. It's possible Arizona is simply washing its hands of one player, and picking up another that they've always had their eye on. Remember that the 'Backs are in 1st place and have a current 6 game losing streak -- they are sitting 1 game above the struggling Giants.

For the remainder of the year, Hill and McDonald's salaries are roughly equivalent to Johnson. So there is no conflict there.

For next year, it seems Arizona was not going to offer arbitration to Johnson regardless of the compensation that they would be entitled to. I would figure that Hill would not be offered arbitration either.
Glevin - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#242014) #
Like the trade. Johnson was actually a good hitter on Atlanta as well. 3 of his 5 years have been good. (Career OPS+ of 106 versus Hill's 93.) I can see the Jays re-signing him for a couple of years. Also, Johnson could become a type A free agent which makes him valuable either way.
John Northey - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#242015) #
MLB trade rumours suggests Arizona was desperate for a shortstop (McDonald) since Steven Drew is out for the season. If you are trading for John McDonald, no insult to him, you are desperate. A pure defensive shortstop who showed a bit of pop last year but generally is viewed as a guy you'd DH for if you could.
rpriske - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#242016) #

Johnson is paid more than Hill? Really? Wow.

 

That sure takes the bloom off that deal.

China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#242017) #

....His slash lines aren't much better than Hill's right now....

Johnson currently has an OPS of .699 which isn't great, but it's more than 100 points better than Hill's current OPS of .584.  And as Mike pointed out, Johnson probably has a better chance of bouncing back to career norms than Hill.

 

Ryan Day - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#242018) #
Also, Johnson could become a type A free agent which makes him valuable either way.

That might make him less valuable. I can't imagine many teams are willing to give up a draft pick to sign him after this year.
China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#242019) #
In other news, Brian Jeroloman has been called up.  I suppose he would have been promoted in September anyway, so this is just a week early.  But it does now suggest that Hechavarria is likely to be called up in September.
sam - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#242020) #
I think if Johnson resigns, and returns somewhat to his 2010 year, the lineup is better even if Hill had returned somewhat to his 2009 season. Johnson simply brings more to the table.
electric carrot - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#242021) #
I think if this keeps happening AA's use of hypnosis while trading with other GMs will be found out.  I think he has to make a couple of value for value trades just to keep the FBI & the Mounties off his case.

"Your eye-lids are getting heavy and you are getting very sleepy ... Aaron Hill's 2009 year was not a career year ... he is going to smack many balls over the fence and not pop up in the infield one every other at bat ... "

 

chocolatethunder - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#242022) #
AA's trades just materialize...no rumors until half an hour ago...kudos on the deal if not just a "change of scenery" deal. Is Wandy and upgrade on what we have?....and listening to the FAN is maddening the host, the calls...agghhh.
BalzacChieftain - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#242023) #
Solid deal for the Jays. I echo the sentiment that Johnson is more likely to bounce back than Hill is, and at least taking a walk is part of his game. If he declines arb, no big deal either. I would find it difficult to find any fault or risk in this deal at all.
jgadfly - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#242024) #
Another plus is that it opens up one more spot on the 40 man roster ... maybe Adam Loewen in September ?
Spicol - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#242025) #

Johnson is paid more than Hill? Really? Wow.

 That sure takes the bloom off that deal.

Just from a defensive standpoint, Johnson is worth more than Hill. Add in the potential for greater offense as well and this is a no brainer.

Forkball - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#242026) #
Johnson currently has an OPS of .699 which isn't great, but it's more than 100 points better than Hill's current OPS of .584.  And as Mike pointed out, Johnson probably has a better chance of bouncing back to career norms than Hill.

I agree.  It's funny how he's playing poorly and still has 100 points of OPS on Hill (I didn't look that closely).  What's the AL/NL conversion rate these days?  50 points of OPS?

But the larger point I was trying to make is that it's a trade of struggling players who are all free agents after this year and shouldn't be offered arbitration for fear that they'd accept.   Because of that there isn't too much of a reason to make the move (Johnson was likely a free agent after this year).

The advantage for the Jays is they get to see Johnson up close the rest of the year (and fix a swing flaw?), and he gets to see them.  They were interested in Johnson a couple years ago when the Braves non-tendered him, and we don't know why he signed with Arizona.  Maybe playing in Toronto for the rest of the year makes Johnson want to be here.

AA's press conference might clear up what they're looking for in the move.

BalzacChieftain - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#242027) #

Hill fWAR 2010: 1.2

HillfWAR 2011: -0.5

Johnson fWAR 2010: 5.9

Johnson fWAR 2011: 1.6

 

Forkball - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#242028) #
Rosenthal Tweeted that the Rockies claimed Wandy.
rpriske - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#242029) #
Oh, I am not saying it is now a BAD deal, just when I thought Johnson cost less it was an AMAZING deal.
jgadfly - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#242030) #

"In other news, Brian Jeroloman has been called up"  ... as per China fan    

 I would imagine Molina has cleared waivers but isn't he a 'B' ? 

Jonny German - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#242031) #
Blue Jays most senior player:

January 20:
Vernon Wells (drafted in 1997, majors in 1999)

July 26:
Jason Frasor (acquired & hit the majors in 2004)

August 22:
Aaron Hill (drafted 2003, majors 2005)
#2 John McDonald (acquired 2005)

Now:
Adam Lind (drafted 2004, majors 2006)
Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#242034) #
Diamondbacks can now run out an infield of Roberts, McDonald, Hill and Overbay.
85bluejay - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#242035) #
Listening to the Press conference, I won't be totally shocked if both McDonald & Hill are back next year and the Jays take the pick with Johnson - Mcdonald spoke as if he expects to return and is just a rental for Az.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#242036) #
Career:

3B B.Lawrie (21): .426woba
RF J.Bautista (30): .364woba
DH E.Encarnacion (28): .345woba
*2B K.Johnson (29): .343woba
SS Y.Escobar (28): .339woba
1B A.Lind (27): .339woba
LF E.Thames (24): .338woba
CF C.Rasmus (24): .333woba
UT M.Teahen (29): .322woba
*2B A.Hill (29): .320woba
OF R.Davis (30): .318woba
C J.Arencibia (25): .302woba
BC J.Molina (36): .280woba
IF M.McCoy (29): .269woba
*IF J.McDonald (36): .268woba


I am a very, very happy man.
MatO - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#242038) #

Sounds like a race to the bottom for these two guys.  Since the ASB:

Hill  .198  .248  .274

Johnson  .181  .246  .324

ayjackson - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#242039) #

Now:
Adam Lind (drafted 2004, majors 2006)

tick tock tick tock

JB21 - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#242040) #

AA does it again. Kelly Johnson is a guy that I've followed since his early ATL days and I've always loved his patience and power from a non offensive position. When JP made a trade there would be 4000 comments and probably a 50/50 split. When AA makes a trade there are 40 comments of giddiness. Well 41 now.

smcs - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#242041) #
When was the last time an infield started in 2 different cities? May 27, 2007 saw Roberts, McDonald, Hill and Overbay start for Toronto.
sam - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#242042) #
The only way I see Lind leaving is if Fielder is coming in.
Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#242043) #
I kind of wonder how Johnson and Escobar got along in Atlanta.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#242044) #
For the record, Johnson was 3rd in 2B WAR last year.

In this "awful" 2011 season, he's 13th in 2B WAR.
ayjackson - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#242045) #

Johnson looks to be just missing out on Type A FA status in the AL, but even with a resurgence down the stretch, looks like a longshot to catch those ahead of him.

It's probably a good situation, if he finishes strong, he may get Type A and would likely be able to decline Arb.  If he scuttles down the stretch, he's Type B, but doesn't cost a team a pick to sign.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#242047) #
Kelly Johnson is a guy that I've followed since his early ATL days

Me too. The reason his defense at second was poor early on was because the Braves converted him to second base at the major league level. He was signed as a shortstop, moved to the outfield and made it to the majors in 2005, lost all of 2006 to an injury, and upon returning was installed as the regular second baseman in 2007.

I've always admired Atlanta's confidence in their own decisions.
Paul D - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#242048) #

Anyone else think it's weird they called up a 3rd catcher?

I wonder if Lind's still day to day.  Maybe they'll play EE at 1b, JP at DH and Molina at C?

China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#242049) #

The catching situation is interesting.  Anthopoulos said he called up Jeroloman because he projects as a back-up catcher and AA didn't want to interrupt the development of the younger prospects.  Molina is currently projected as a Type B catcher, and he could help a playoff-bound team, so he might have trade value now -- or the Jays could offer him arbitration (on the assumption that another team will probably offer him a better deal, on the strength of his good 2011 numbers) and collect the draft pick for him.  In either of those two scenarios, Jeroloman could back up JPA next season, since d'Arnaud is not ready for the majors.  In which case, it makes sense to promote him now, to acclimatize him to the majors.

85bluejay - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#242050) #
well, In my fantasy Lind goes to the Dodgers as part of a package for Kershaw(Billingsley) and Jays acquire Morrison from the Marlins - I don't think there's any chance that Fielder ends up in Toronto (or Pujlos /Darvish) 
Mike Green - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#242051) #
"d'Arnaud is not ready for the majors" is an interesting negotiating position. 
Mike D - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#242052) #

Mcdonald spoke as if he expects to return and is just a rental for Az.

It was actually astonishing how explicitly he said so.  It's a nice testament to the organization to have a player get traded but have him treat it like a semester overseas.

Hill also expressed a very strong interest in returning (though without Johnny Mac's certainty), provided the D-backs decline his options.

John Northey - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#242054) #
Makes one wonder about Arizona's players and fans and how they'll react to Hill & McDonald both going 'yeah, we are here but we are going back ASAP'.

Checking one blog I enjoyed the comment...
"So we gave away our struggling 2B, plus two draft picks (most likely), to acquire a guy who is worse in every way imaginable? Whenever you have the chance to get fleeced by Anthopoulos, you have to do it, right?"
China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#242055) #

....Hill also expressed a very strong interest in returning....

But that would seem very unlikely, assuming the Jays negotiate a new contract with Johnson.  If the Jays keep Johnson, then McDonald is the more likely guy to return, because he can back up all the infield positions, whereas Hill can't really play SS.

adrianveidt - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#242056) #
Oh, I am not saying it is now a BAD deal, just when I thought Johnson cost less it was an AMAZING deal.
But most of Johnson's salary for this year has already been paid. He hasn't been working all season for free.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#242057) #
Johnny Mac will be a useful player for the D-Back's playoff run. Great guy to put in there with a late lead or with a groundball pitcher on the mound. Hopefully he makes it back to the Jays organization in some capacity.

Johnson looks like a means to an end: acquiring an extra draft pick. But if he accepts arb, he would be a serviceable (if overpriced) 2B option. Can't see the Jays offering him a multiyear deal with his struggles this year, though. I would think AA would want to see an Escobar-like turnaround first.
Forkball - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#242058) #
provided the D-backs decline his options.

Which is just about a certainty.  Maybe there's money exchanging hands, but Hill apparently has a $1 million buyout that the D'Backs are now responsible for.

Maybe MacDonald comes back, but I can't see the Jays re-signing Hill.  Over 1000 PAs the last two years at a .270 OBP is enough evidence for someone that can't play SS.

And I think people are getting way too draft pick happy (I guess we've moved on from obsession about platoons).  I think this is purely a 6 week tryout for Johnson.
China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#242059) #

...."d'Arnaud is not ready for the majors" is an interesting negotiating position....

Hmmm, are you suggesting d'Arnaud could have a shot at the Jays starting job out of spring training next season?  It would be quite a jump, and it would also require the Jays to trade JPA, no?  Because d'Arnaud has gotta play full-time somewhere, he's not going to be a back-up next season.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#242060) #
(raises eyebrow) Maybe.  (raises other eyebrow simultaneously) Could be.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#242061) #
I think this is a pretty decent list of the top-10 2B in baseball:


Career WAR/150:

C.Utley (32): 7.0 WAR/150 (1081gms)
D.Pedroia (27): 5.5 WAR/150 (680gms)
B.Zobrist (30): 4.8 WAR/150 (571gms)
I.Kinsler (29): 4.6 WAR/150 (741gms)
R.Weeks (28): 3.8 WAR/150 (746gms)
D.Uggla (31): 3.5 WAR/150 (904gms)
R.Cano (28): 3.4 WAR/150 (1018gms)
H.Kendrick (28): 3.3 WAR/150 (623gms)
K.Johnson (29): 3.2 WAR/150 (758gms)
B.Phillips (30): 3.1 WAR/150 (1008gms)


3-year WAR/150:

C.Utley (32): 7.4 WAR/150 (346gms)
B.Zobrist (30): 6.6 WAR/150 (426gms)
D.Pedroia (27): 6.5 WAR/150 (353gms)
R.Weeks (28): 5.8 WAR/150 (301gms)
I.Kinsler (29): 5.6 WAR/150 (370gms)
R.Cano (28): 5.1 WAR/150 (445gms)
B.Phillips (30): 4.1 WAR/150 (425gms)
H.Kendrick (28): 3.5 WAR/150 (371gms)
K.Johnson (29): 3.3 WAR/150 (374gms)
D.Uggla (31): 3.2 WAR/150 (445gms)


Though admittedly there are some guys who haven't been able to hold down fulltime 2B roles the last few seasons for various reasons like Hudson, Infante, and Roberts who could challenge for this list as well.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#242063) #
It would be quite a jump, and it would also require the Jays to trade JPA, no?

Lefty-mashing JPA could fit in quite nicely in at least a platoon DH role opposite the likes of Lind/Thames/Snider.
jgadfly - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#242064) #
"d'Arnaud is not ready for the majors"   ...    I thought I read somewhere in May or early June that Fasano thought that d'Arnaud could be ready for the majors with another 100 games or so in AA ( ie: by season's end ) .   Since then d'Arnaud has probably been the Eastern League's MVP.  
Gerry - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#242065) #

Checking Kelly Johnson's stats he has lost 75 points off his BA, and 83 points off his OBP and SLG.  Essentially his lower value this season is due to that lower BA.

Johnson's BABIP was .339 last year and just .257 this year.  If his luck changes, or if his swing gets "fixed", his value will move up.

Secondly, if AA was thinking of bringing Hill back next season, this move makes it cheaper and easier to do, assuming the D'Backs don't pick up Hill's option.  The Jays won't have to offer arbitration and there is no option hanging out there as a baseline.

TamRa - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#242066) #
I haven't heard the news confrence but my very first thought upon hearing about this was that McDonald would be re-signed in the off-season.  Even before i read that here.

As for the rest, I'm having trouble adding to what's been said in this thread. to me it's an almost obvious move for both teams. looking at the potential free agents, these two are the two that stand out for anyone hoping to buy low. it makes perfect sense for each team to "audition" the other guy for six weeks and get a better read on him.

you can, on the one hand, let the new guy go and pursue the old guy and collect another pick - or sign the new guy if you like hi better.The D'Backs give up a bit of marginal production at 2B to patch up their SS hole (and don't be surprised if Johnny Mac does ok on offense in that park and that division as long as the expectations are reasonable)

I don't see this as a "fleecing" in any way given that both players will be free agents. MAYBE if the re-signed him before he hit the market you'd give the jays a bit of an edge if you assume the D'Backs really did want him back.

My guess is if Arizona isn't impressed with Hill, there's a decent possibility they would try Roberts at 2B in 2012 and try to acquire a 3B


Landomar - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#242067) #

I am super excited that we just got Johnson for Hill and McDonald.  I was actually looking over the 2B options for 2012 earlier this afternoon, and there really isn't a whole lot out there other than signing Kelly Johnson (even when the trade market is factored in, as it would be very hard to pull off a decent trade that involved getting back a guy like Rickie Weeks, Ian Kinsler, or even Brandon Phillips).  By trading for Johnson now, we put ourselves in a better situation with respect to possible compensation picks, and also might increase the odds of Johnson wanting to play in Toronto.

If our lineup next season, in some order, ends up including Escobar, Thames, Bautista, Lind, Lawrie, Rasmus, Encarnacion, Johnson, and Arencibia, then that's likely to be a very effective group.  The moves Anthopolous makes keep making me happy, and it's fun to be a Blue Jays fan right now.

laketrout - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#242068) #
It's too bad the deal wasn't "Hill and McDonald for Johnson and a player to be named later". When later comes that player turns out to be none other than John McDonald.

It's happened before .
TamRa - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#242071) #
Secondly, if AA was thinking of bringing Hill back next season, this move makes it cheaper and easier to do, assuming the D'Backs don't pick up Hill's option.  The Jays won't have to offer arbitration and there is no option hanging out there as a baseline.

A solid point. This is a tough one for me only in where my emotions conflice with reality. Emotionally I'd love for Hill to come back and experience a revival and be part of the coming contender.

Non-emotionally, it's hard to argue with retaining Johnson and letting Hill fend for himself.

DaveB - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#242072) #
I'm glad for Hill. He needs a change of scenery and he gets into a playoff race, too.

AA continues to amaze. He's always liked Johnson and gets him without giving up a key player or having to over-commit dollars and years to sign him as a FA. If Johnson accepts arbitration (I think he will), he gets a year to rebuild FA value and the Jays get a year to develop Hech or the chance to extend Johnson long-term (or trade him mid-season) if he bounces back.
ayjackson - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#242073) #

It's a tough situation to handicap, but I think I prefer the draft pick and Aaron Hill on a one year deal next year to a reasonably priced multi-year deal for KJ. 

Who knows, Hill could have a good enough 2012 to preserve his type B status. (no one get their hopes up)

 

BlueJayWay - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#242077) #
One thing I like about KJ is that he can take a walk (career 10.7%).  Hopefully he doesn't do the typical thing and forget how to do that.
92-93 - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#242079) #
Grip it and rip it.
Brent S - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#242080) #
On a side note, does anyone else find themselves signing along with the Northwood Mortgage radio jingle? My brain tells me it's terrible, but that "yeah-eee-yeah!" gets me every time.
92-93 - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#242081) #
They're working harding for you.

The promotion of Jeroloman makes me wonder if there's a playoff contender out there that wants Molina as a backup C for the stretch run and can give him enough playing time to maintain that Type B status. Maybe SF would like another round of Molina and has a kid AA is interested in.
Ron - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#242082) #
Does this trade mean Mike McCoy is the new scrappy dirtbag of the Jays?

I got a chuckle out of AA's comments regarding calling up Jeroloman. In a nice way he basically said the Jays didn't want to call up a legit prospect because they needed the AB's. The person who gets called up would be the 25th man and wouldn't be playing. It's too bad Jeroloman's power and ability to throw out base stealers vanished this season in Vegas. He had the perfect opportunity to make a case as to why he should be the backup C at the start of next season.

I like Johnson better than Hill and McDonald. He's a better hitter and defender than Hill. For all this talk about McDonald returning to the Jays after this season, if this happens, I hope it's only in a coaching capacity.

finch - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#242083) #
How does AA do it? I love this trade. Does he start off with a phone call asking for the moon like Upton and then negotiates down to Johnson? When he got Escobar from ATL he probably asked for Heyward LOL
China fan - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#242084) #

Fangraphs has concluded that the Jays won the trade: "That both Hill and Johnson will likely reach free agency next season, that Johnson is clearly a superior player right now, and that Johnson will net his employer more valuable compensatory picks puts the swap firmly in favor of the Jays."

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-acquiring-hill-wise-for-the-diamondbacks/

Jonny German - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#242086) #
According to Mike Wilner's tweets from the press conference, this one started with Arizona inquiring about Johnny Mack.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#242088) #
Molina having another great start for New Hampshire. So far: 5 2 0 0 0 7. He's having an amazing year - could see him being a dark horse to join the rotation sometime in 2012 if there is an opening.
Gerry - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#242090) #
According to AA most prospects they could have called up would end up riding the bench. They see Jeroloman as a backup catcher and as a catcher he has a lot to learn and he would have been called up in September anyway.

That is his stated logic.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#242091) #
This was simply a need for an inexpense top defensive backup shortstop with Stephen Drew out for the season. A.A. simply expanded the trade to include Johnson. Arizona needed a 2B to balance (very close) the books. You want John McDonald, give us Kelly Johnson. The rest is just bookkeeping.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#242093) #
Is there some reason why Teahen pinch-hit for Rasmus in the 9th? You would think Farrell would have wanted Rasmus up there, down 6-4 with a runner on.
TamRa - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:11 PM EDT (#242094) #
Kevin Towers implied, without outright saying, that he liked Hill as a defensive upgrade on Johnson...of course he also referred to him as a contact hitter too. :)

[Hill] is a guy that makes probably more contact, a guy that will probably give you a better [at-bat], and knowing that the power has been there before and at his age, the power can come back.

Though advanced defensive metrics give Johnson the edge this year, Towers said he feels the D-backs upgraded.


From the reporting, it sure seems like the two are seen around baseball as much closer in ability than some here see them.


greenfrog - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#242095) #
Question: do you think that KJ's agreeing to decline the Jays' arb offer was a prerequisite to this deal? If the goal was to add an extra draft pick, it's hard to imagine AA making the trade without some prior reassurance that Johnson would decline arb. Unless, of course, AA already feels comfortable about the possibility of having him around next year at a salary of $8M or so.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#242096) #
Yeah, Hill will "give you a better at bat" than Kelly Johnson, even though Kelly Johnson's 4.08p/pa ranks 20th in baseball even in this down year (2nd only to Bautista's 5th MLB-ranked 4.29 on the Jays), slightly up from his 4.00p/pa career mark.

Sure thing, Kevin.
ZekeBella - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#242097) #
Greenfrog, I was wondering the same thing. Teahen is 1 for 18 vs LHP this year and 0 for 1 vs Soria! Perhaps someone who heard the broadcast got a comment from the radio guys?  Buck and Pat would not dare to question or even try to explain that move. I just wish Rogers would cut expenses and improve quality by using the Howarth and Ashby call  on TV. I am beyond tired of listening to the same old from those shills!  I have been more than pleased with Farrell this year but he is not perfect. Why can't the TV guys  even be curious sometime?
hypobole - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#242098) #

I know little about arbitration, but $8 million seems like a hefty raise from $5.85 for a guy hitting .209.

As far as Towers' comments, what's he supposed to say "We're happy to have acquired a player who has an innate ability to hit infield flies and can consistently produce a BABIP 50 points below league average.... a player who has  learned to combine a lack of both power and patience"?

greenfrog - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#242099) #
Looks like a wrist injury for Rasmus.
DaveB - Tuesday, August 23 2011 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#242100) #
Rasmus may have been hurt. Mastroianni left the 51s' game in the 2nd inning.
dan gordon - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#242101) #

I imagine Johnson will probably be getting an arb offer of about $6 million and be asking for about $6.5, unless he really turns it on in the last month of the season.  His numbers this year are bad enough to negate the possibility of a major raise.  I'm sure the Jays would be comfortable with that if he accepted.  It's sort of a win/win, they either get draft pick compensation if he declines or they get Johnson for next year at a reasonable price (assuming they think he can bounce back from this year's results).

Sure, they're not going to pinch hit for Rasmus there unless he's injured.  Apparently, he jammed his wrist against the fence making a catch.  If he's going to miss a few games, they may want to call up Mastroianni to play CF and send Jeroloman back down.  Unless they want to put Jose in CF and use Teahen in RF.  Once Johnson gets here, McCoy could play CF I guess.

Nice game for Carreno today.  He seems to have pretty good movement on his pitches. 

Morrow is frustrating.  I really thought he had put it all together in the 2nd half of last season.  Not sure where that guy went.  Hopefully he resurfaces next year.

 

TamRa - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#242102) #
it's hard to imagine AA making the trade without some prior reassurance that Johnson would decline arb.

if you look at the free agent market for 2B (including SS who might move to 2B) the next best option after Johnson is...Hill

Johnson will most definitely not be accepting arbitration

BlueJayWay - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#242103) #
Morrow's been one of the bigger disappointments of the season, imo.  He's really stagnated after seeming to really put it together late last year.  Still, this is just his second full season starting in MLB.  Next year will tell something.
Mylegacy - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 01:54 AM EDT (#242105) #
Neither Hill nor Johnson are the "mid to long term" answer at 2nd for the Jays. Basically, Johnson will net the Jays a Supplemental 1st pick and Hill and JMac will be back next year. Hill will be cheaper. The SPLIT SECOND Hechavarria is READY - the very split second - he will be the Jay's SS and Escobar will be at 2nd. The ONLY WAY that isn't the answer is if the team thinks Escobar's daily diminishing range precludes the Big E from being able to play 2nd - IF that happens Escobar will be traded - for a second baseman and Hech will be the everyday - for the next decade - Jay's SS.

As to Morrow's Morass - the answer is clear - to me. He's got great "stuff" - but his strikeouts require guys to swing at his high FB offerings. If those high FB's get just a bit too low - bam. Also, his FB - unlike Alvarez's for instance - is just too straight. I think - longer term Morrow might be a closer. When Molina, Hutchison, McGowan, McGuire, Nicolino and Snydergaard (and others Norris and Comer for instance) all start to near the rotation, the first four by sometime next year, the latter two by 2013 - Morrow will be one of the starters who lose out. In fact Romero is the only present starter who is more or less guaranteed his job - and only if he improves against NY and Boston.

The new normalcy will be change - in addition to the starting and bull pen pitching changes there are three KEY position players who will force their way on to the team by mid-2012...Hech, d'Arnaud and Gose.  All three are SIGNIFICANT up-grades.

When the team is then set - the new normalcy will be each and every pitcher and position player will be continually challenged by rising minor league talent. The Jay's time as a contender will not be an easy time for any incumbent - new guys will continually be rising and challenging for a position. Finally - we'll be a team based on having the best available player at every position - not just a nice player at each position.
smcs - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 02:26 AM EDT (#242106) #
If he's going to miss a few games, they may want to call up Mastroianni to play CF and send Jeroloman back down.

Oh, that would be just too cold for my liking.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#242108) #
Speaking of little white lies, "the fact that Hill and McDonald are free agents at the end of the year kind of forced our hand...we've been transparent about that".  It's the baseball equivalent of "you look great in that" and "beer belly, what beer belly?".  Each GM finds their own comfort zone in dealing with the media, and the limits of truth-telling.  I would much prefer this to the B.J. Ryan injury thing. 
China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#242109) #
The other little-white-lie is AA's suggestion that the entire trade was merely a result of J-Mac's desire to play for a playoff contender ... and his claim that Arizona initiated the trade.   This may be technically true, in the sense that the Diamondbacks knew that J-Mac was available and may have initiated the first phone call this month -- but it ignores the likely fact that Anthopoulos has repeatedly inquired about Johnson over the past couple of years and made repeated efforts to acquire him and probably told Arizona many times: "If you're ever giving any thought to the idea of dealing him, call us first!"    I mean, the suggestion that J-Mac was the major initiator of the trade, when AA is obviously trying to acquire draft picks and fill the biggest hole in his team (2B), is rather difficult to believe....
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 09:06 AM EDT (#242110) #
I thought AA was quite tactful in dealing with the whole thing. I would be very surprised to see Hill back in a Jays uni next year.

Kevin Towers is no fool. I wonder whether he saw signs of decline in KJ (decreased bat speed, worsening defensive skills) that justified the trade, ie, because he felt that Hill would be no worse and he didn't want to risk KJ accepting arb. Lots of players go into rapid decline once they pass their prime.

However, having Hill, McDonald and a pitcher in the lineup could make things tough for the D-Backs in the playoffs.
brent - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 09:11 AM EDT (#242111) #
I just want to say now that the Jays' book on Aaron Hill is closed at the moment that I wished the team would have kept him on the left side of the diamond. I always thought he should have gone to 3rd base if he had to move off of shortstop.
China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#242112) #

.....he didn't want to risk KJ accepting arb....

Not sure if I understand your point.  If he thought KJ was in permanent decline, couldn't he have simply not offered him arbitration?  Nothing compelled him to keep Johnson on the team, as far as I know.   And he faces the same risk with Hill that he did with KJ:  in either case, offering arbitration has the risk that it would keep a declining player on the team.  So I don't see how Arizona is further ahead at this point, except that they have a second SS for their playoff run.

brent - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#242114) #

Orlando Hudson- drafted in 1997          2002-2005 2nd base

end of 2005 Traded with Miguel Batista for Troy Glaus and Sergio Santos

2008 Sergio Santos (minors) lost on waivers to Minnesota

2006 and 2007 Troy Glaus 3rd base

January 2008 Troy Glaus traded for Scott Rolen

Scott Rolen 2008 and 2009 3rd base

July 2009 Scott Rolen traded for Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart

Josh Roenicke 2009 and 2010 limited bullpen time

June 2011 selected off waivers by Colorado

Edwin Encarnacion 2009 and 2010 with the Jays

November 2010 selected off waivers by Oakland (signed as a free agent but the book closes at this point)

Zach Stewart 2011 a few starts and traded to the Chicago WS with Jason Frasor for Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen

Mark Teahen currently with the team

Edwin Jackson with Octavio Dotel, Corey Patterson, Scrabble and 3 PTBNL traded for Trever Miller, Colby Rasmus, Brian Tallet and PJ Walters

PJ Walters sent to the minors

Tallet is on the DL

Rasmus is currently with the team

Trever Miller released August 2011

 

To recap, drafting Hudson back in 1997(!) has come to this point with PJ Walters in the minors, Mark Teahen, Brian Tallet and Colby Rasmus. This chain also doesn't seem to be ending any time soon either.

 

ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#242115) #
MLBTR is reporting that Kelly Johnson is a type A free agent in the AL.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#242116) #
...which leads to the song of the day.  It could be Fleetwood Mac's Don't Break the Chain or Reunited, but instead I'll go with Please Come Home. Definitely not a professional video, but it is a pretty good introduction to Gary Clark Jr.
ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#242117) #
Eyewitnesses claiming Darin Mastroianni was with Jeroloman on the redeye from Vegas last night.
Matthew E - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#242119) #
Contemplating brent's post...

What parts of the current roster are part of Gord Ash's lingering legacy?

Dustin McGowan, for sure. Morrow, who was acquired for League. Francisco, acquired for Napoli, who was acquired for Wells.

Oh, also. Ash drafted John Bale and traded him for Jayson Werth. Werth became Frasor, which means that Teahen, Rasmus, and Walters can also be traced back to Ash.

Anybody else?

BlueJayWay - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#242120) #
This is starting to sound like the Kevin Bacon game.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#242122) #
From Ash to Ash and Dustin to Dustin: Ladies and gentlemen, your 2011 Toronto Blue Jays.
China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#242123) #

If Johnson is a Type A, doesn't this make it much more likely that Anthopoulos offers him arbitration in the hopes that he refuses to accept it?  And given the great shortage of free-agent 2Bs, isn't it quite possible that Johnson signs elsewhere?  In which case, the Jays get a nice draft pick, but they're back to zero in their search for a 2B for next season, despite our assumption yesterday that KJ is the upgrade that we've all been looking for. 

Of course Johnson might prefer to accept a one-year arb deal, so that he can prove his worth and get a better free-agent deal at the end of 2012.  That's possible, but far from certain.   If he's a Type A, there is clearly much less chance that Anthopoulos offers him a multi-year deal, and a greater risk that he departs at the end of this season, leaving the Jays scrambling again for a 2B for next year.

Lylemcr - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#242124) #

To me it is simple.  Two 2nd basemen, who are very simular in so many ways, needed a change of scenary.  The 2 GM's obliged.  AA needed to threw in MacDonald to make the deal move. 

In the end Kelly Johnson = Aaron Hill. 

In the end, I wish the trade works out well for both teams.  I hope Hill hits like he did a couple years ago and Johnson hits to his potential. 

ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#242125) #

Of course Johnson might prefer to accept a one-year arb deal, so that he can prove his worth and get a better free-agent deal at the end of 2012.

That suits our needs too, and we still get the comp picks (assuming no ill affects of the new CBA).

Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#242127) #
Joey Bats was acquired for Robinzon Diaz, who was an Ash regime IFA signing in 2000.
Ishai - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#242128) #
If Johnson accepts arbitration, that gives us a potential middle infield next year of Escobar, Johnson, McCoy/McDonald.
If Johnson declines arbitration, that gives us a potential middle infield next year of Escobar, McCoy, McDonald, and 1-2 draft picks.
You might not want one of the Mc brothers playing every day, but they're not going to be much worse than Hill was the last two years.

This makes the inevitable divorce from Aaron Hill less heartless than it could be. Better a trade than a non-tender.

From AZ's point of view, Johnny Mac is a very useful player, especially in the NL where they do things like "bunt," an antiquated practice at which Johnny Mac excels. But yeah, the Hill, McDonald, Pitcher innings will be a nice breather for the opposition.

Lylemcr - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#242129) #

The one thing I found interesting was how they had an interview with Hill and MacDonald after the trade.  Typically, the interviews are done as players are running to the airport. 

 

 

Mick Doherty - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#242130) #
greenfrog, your Ash/Dustin line is genius. If we gave a post of the day award, that'd get my vote!
Matthew E - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#242131) #
Let's not assume that McDonald is coming back next year. I mean, he might. But, despite all the nice things everyone said yesterday afternoon, the Jays may have bigger fish to fry. (As might McDonald!)
Ryan Day - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#242133) #
If Johnson is a Type A, doesn't this make it much more likely that Anthopoulos offers him arbitration in the hopes that he refuses to accept it?  And given the great shortage of free-agent 2Bs, isn't it quite possible that Johnson signs elsewhere?

I dunno. Would you give up a first-round draft pick to sign Kelly Johnson? If you think 2010 is for real, then probably, but not if you're concerned about a repeat of 09/11. The last time he was a free agent, he didn't exactly have teams beating down his door.

I don't think it's likely he makes Type A, anyway. Johnson has been horrible since the All-Star break, and you might expect and adjustment period in the AL.
Matthew E - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#242135) #
Somebody was saying that Johnson counts as a Type A already just because he moved to the American League; maybe because he's being compared to different players?
China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#242136) #

Might be a good poll question.  We haven't had a Batters Box poll for quite a while.  The options might be:  Do you offer arbitration to Johnson if he's a Type A?  Do you offer arbitration to him if he's a Type B?  Or do you try to negotiate a contract with him to guarantee that he fills the 2B hole for the Jays in 2012 and possibly beyond?

I'm also wondering if uglyone can weigh in on this question, since he's been the most vocal booster of KJ here.  (And I'm not necessarily disagreeing with his analysis -- I actually found it quite persuasive).  Uglyone, do you think AA should negotiate a multi-year deal with Johnson, even though it eliminates the possibility of getting a draft pick for him?  Or do you think AA should prioritize the draft pick by offering arbitration to him, at the risk of seeing him disappear to another team?

rpriske - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#242137) #
Watch, Assess and (hopefully) sign.
Paul D - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#242138) #
From AZ Central . com:

The waiver process came into play because the deal was consummated after the July 31 deadline. Johnson was claimed on waivers by Toronto; Hill and McDonald had cleared waivers.

 I had not heard that the Jays claimed Johnson.  Does make the "they called about Macdonald" story seem a little fishy.

John Northey - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#242139) #
Not really. Arizona was probably talking about McDonald and the Jays had 2 deals in place - one if Johnson reached the Jays on the waiver wire, one if not.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#242140) #
I still don't think people are quite willing to accept just how bad Hill is/was.

Make no mistake, even in this "down" year from KJ (the first healthy down year of his career), he is still at worst a dead average MLB 2B:

(ranks of the 30 MLB 2B with 300+ PA):

OPS: .699 (17th)
wOBA: .309 (18th)
UZR/150: +6.1 (9th)
WAR: 1.6 (T-14th)
WAR/150: 2.1 (14th)


Meanwhile, this is our boy Hill:

OPS: .584 (30th)
wOBA: .265 (29th)
UZR/150: -3.3 (20th)
WAR: -0.5 (29th)
WAR/150: -0.7 (29th)

The Jays just upgraded from MLB-worst 2B performance to MLB-average 2B performance, and the "average" performance is coming from a guy having the first healthy down year of his career and who's been much better than that his whole career.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#242144) #
I agree with uglyone. I wanted Hill to recover but the fact is that Johnson is easily the better player today and will probably be in the future.

Both are 29 (just shy of a month apart in age).
Hill's career is 3642 PA 265/318/413 92 OPS+ 15.9 WAR.
Johnson's career is 3054 PA 260/342/442 106 OPS+ 14.2 WAR.

Johnson walks more, has more power, has a higher peak (127 OPS+ vs 114), reached it more recently (2010 vs 2009), has a lower collapse level (82 OPS+ in '09 vs a 78 in '10 and 58 this year for Hill).

Hill's UZR/150 this year is 3.3 below 0 after a -4.3 in 2009 (he did have a +4.3 inbetween, lifetime +3.9 at 2B). Johnson's is a +6.1 this year, +7.7 last after sucking in Atlanta for 2007-2009 (-5.0, -7.0, -1.1 after being used in the outfield for awhile) dragging his lifetime figure to -0.3. This suggests Hill has been paying too much attention to his batting slump while Johnson has kept working on his fielding. Hill had an incredible 2006 (+20.4) but hasn't cracked 4.5 since.

No matter how I cut it Johnson looks to be the better player at the moment and into the future on both offense and defense. If the Jays choose to resign him, great. If not, then one or two draft picks will come.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#242145) #

If Johnson is a Type A, doesn't this make it much more likely that Anthopoulos offers him arbitration in the hopes that he refuses to accept it? 

Players are more likely to refuse arbitration as a Type B than a Type A. We saw this just last year with both Frasor and Francisco accepting as Type A's.. More teams will be willing to sign a player if thay do not have to give up a pick, especially for a lower tier player like Johnson. O-dog found out a couple of years ago the danger of refusing arb as a Type A - no one wanted to give up a pick for him.

If I'm AA, I offer arb and don't really care much whether he accepts or declines. If he accepts, they can work out a one year deal, giving Hech a full year in Vegas. If KJ declines, AA will have to find a stopgap 2B, but has an extra comp pick.

Marc Hulet - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#242146) #

I can confirm Mastroianni has in fact been sent to Toronto in case Rasmus' injury requires a DL stay.

Eric Arce has also been sent up to Bluefield from the GCL.

Thomas - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#242147) #
Let's not assume that McDonald is coming back next year. I mean, he might.

Well, you can't take anything for granted until McDonald's signature is on the bottom line. But, I've never witnessed a press conference like yesterday's, where the player and front office repeatedly referenced the fact they had already had talks, that he was looking to gain playoff experience to bring to an environment in the future and that he "didn't view it as an end." If McDonald doesn't come back, I don't think it will because Anthopolous sees something else, as opposed to McDonald choosing another option.
China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#242149) #

Hypobole, those are good points, but you're slightly missing my point, perhaps because I didn't express it clearly enough.  I was suggesting that Anthopoulos would be more likely to offer arbitration to a Type A free agent because it would reap a better draft-pick reward.  Regardless of the likelihood of him accepting arb or not, a Type A free agent would produce better draft-pick compensation, so that could tilt Anthopoulos more in the direction of offering arb -- rather than trying to negotiate a contract -- because the reward is greater.

You also suggested that Anthopoulos won't care much about whether Johnson accepts or declines.  I disagree, because I think AA always has a preference, and it's always possible for him to figure out the smarter of two options, if he does enough calculating and researching. 

As for the separate question of whether Johnson would accept arbitration or not:  I guess one comparison is Jason Frasor, who was a Type A last year.  He didn't find much of a market for his services, so he accepted arbitration.  But there was a glut of relievers on the free-agent market last year.  There isn't a glut of good 2Bs on the market this year.  Scarcity creates demand, and Johnson might find a market for his services -- especially if he's a Type B, but maybe even if he's a Type A.

John Northey - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#242150) #
Just read some of the comments by Johnny Mac and Hill. The way they both talk of Toronto as a special place on the day they are traded away has to be viewed as a big plus when free agency season begins. If you are a free agent and you have a choice between areas you hear negative things about (such as the insanity that is Boston/NYY or the issues you see in Baltimore & Dodgers with ownership or Washington with losing) then the Jays could shift into the tempting category if the cash is close.

It would be weird to have traded players be your best asset when recruiting new ones, but they could be.

Also, if Johnson is a type A and goes elsewhere then suddenly AA has 2 more first round picks (or 1st and a 2nd) and might be more tempted to chase a premium free agent (the old Fielder/Pujols chase).
DaveB - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#242152) #
The Jays just upgraded from MLB-worst 2B performance to MLB-average 2B performance. Pretty much agree, though UZR/150 is hardly the best way to grade defense. DRS consistently rates Hill much higher than Johnson and that view has been shared by the stat and scout-informed Fielding Bible panel.

(Johnson) having the first healthy down year of his career. Johnson lost the starting 2B job in Atlanta in 2009 to Martin Prado on merit, not because he was hurt. Johnson has had two down years in the past three seasons.

Still, it's a good trade and I think in this case AA wants the player more than he wants the draft pick. Either way he comes out ahead.
TheBunk - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#242154) #
He'll decline arb for a number of reasons, type A shouldn't impact his decision.

For one, he's easily the best second basemen on the market and should stand to get at least a nice three year deal. He's only one year removed from a great season and hasn't been a disaster in 2011. This could also be his last year to grab a premium multi year deal so i'm sure his agent will be pushing hard for him to decline and put himself on the market. Finally, teams don't have to give up a first round pick to sign Johnson as half of ML teams have a protected first rounder, giving up a second rounder for Kelly Johnson is no big deal.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#242155) #
agreed on the defensive ratings, though TZ also agrees with UZR on this one.

As for KJ's Type A/B status....i think we're looking at this backwards.

I think AA was going to go after KJ one way or another this offseason (as the best available 2B option our there), and this deal has already saved us the draft pick we would have had to give up when we signed him. In AA's mind, I'd say he feels like he just traded Hill and JMac for a first round pick.
Landomar - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#242159) #

I like Kelly Johnson a lot, and if the money is reasonable, I'd be interested in signing him long term.  I don't view him as a guy that's on the same level as Hill.  On their careers, Johnson has been a better defender than Hill.  For their careers, as hitters, Johnson also has a significant edge in both OBP (+.24) and SLG (+.29).  This season, Johnson has been a clearly superior hitter (mostly due to around +.100 SLG).  In Johnson's current down year his isolated OBP and SLG are both very good; he's still taking walks and getting extra base hits.  His struggles are simply due to a career low .209 BA.  This is similar to Hill's 2010, true, but I believe that Johnson is unlikely to completely crater like Hill did in 2011.  I believe that Johnson is likely to be at least a league average 2B is 2012 (and he's been around average this current season).  The exciting part is that he has a decent chance to put up elite numbers for us if things go our way.

I do think that Johnson is a good long term fit, even though we have Hechevarria in the system.  First, there's no guarantee that Hechevarria's bat will become good enough for him to be an everyday player.  The bar for his offensive numbers may be low (if the reports on his defense are accurate), but he still has to have some kind of success at the plate up here to be a regular, and giving him plenty of time in AAA would be fine with me.  If Hechevarria does eventually show he's ready for major league action, then you just make a trade, let Hechevarria break in slowly (in more heavily used McDonald type role), or move one of the three to some other position.  In 3 out of the last 5 years, for example, Johnson would have been valuable even in left field.

China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#242160) #

Congratulations to Darrin Mastroianni, who will finally see the major leagues tonight.  He's officially been recalled and added to tonight's roster, since Kelly Johnson won't be arriving until tomorrow.  It's still unclear whether Rasmus needs to go on the DL but presumably a decision will be made on that before tomorrow.  Even if Rasmus is good to go, it might be Jeroloman who is demoted, rather than Mastroianni, when Johnson arrives.

It's a nice promotion for Mastroianni, who has been on the 40-man roster for a while but has probably been wondering if he'd ever see the major leagues.  However, he's unlikely to stay up for a long time, unless Rasmus needs to be DL'ed.  Even then, it's quite possible that McCoy would see the bulk of the CF action while Mastroianni might be on the bench.  But at a minimum, he's a great late-inning pinch-running option.

Matthew E - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#242162) #
I hope Mastroianni gets into the game. May be a while before this chance comes again for him.
ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#242164) #

In AA's mind, I'd say he feels like he just traded Hill and JMac for a first round pick.

Except that he wouldn't have cost a pick to sign.  He was a type B in the NL and wasn't getting any better.

ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#242165) #

AA will have to ask himself in the offseason whether signing KJ is worth two high draft picks (opportunity cost).

Matthew E - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#242166) #
Seriously, just think of all that had to happen to get Mastroianni onto the roster: a trade that removed two infielders, only one of which was being replaced, and the replacement had to fly cross-country to get his passport, while at the same time, Davis, Rasmus, and Snider are all injured. I hope he hits for the cycle tonight.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#242168) #
You could also bring up Podsednik asking for his release rather than playing out the season in Vegas. Patterson is probably too much of a stretch since his departure coincided with Rasmus' arrival.
China fan - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#242169) #
Mastroianni is in the starting lineup tonight, playing CF and batting 9th, while Rasmus sits. 
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#242170) #
Tonight's lineup per Jays twitter account:

mccoy 4
escobar 6
bautista 9
lind 3
encarnacion dh
thames 7
lawrie 5
arencibia 2
mastroianni 8

romero 1
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#242171) #
Weird lineup.  Why wouldn't you stick with Escobar and Thames at the top of the order and just move Lawrie up to #6?  I am not worried about Lawrie's ability to handle the "pressure" of batting 6 instead of 7. 
Thomas - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#242172) #
I'm really pleased to see Mastroianni in the game tonight. It's a well-deserved opportunity and hopefully something he'll remember for a long time, regardless of how things play out from here onwards.
Thomas - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#242173) #
I am not worried about Lawrie's ability to handle the "pressure" of batting 6 instead of 7.

And, if that for some reason is a worry, Arencibia has batted 6th before and presumably could again for one game.
Gerry - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#242174) #
Where is bball12?   This recall contradicts everything he has been saying about Mastroianni for over 2 years now.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#242176) #
Mastro will be the 8th Blue Jay making his major league debut this season. Seems like a lot.


16-Apr Luis Perez

29-Apr David Cooper

18-May Eric Thames

16-Jun Zach Stewart

5-Aug Brett Lawrie

10-Aug Henderson Alvarez

23-Aug Joel Carreno

24-Aug Darin Mastroianni
uglyone - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#242177) #
I don't mind McCoy and his .340obp at the top of the order. He takes pitches, he gets on base, he's got good speed, (and he can BUNT).

Except that he wouldn't have cost a pick to sign. He was a type B in the NL and wasn't getting any better.

meh, he was borderline even after an epic slump, and odds are he'd improve his status over the last month and a half.
Matthew E - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#242178) #
Mastro will be the 8th Blue Jay making his major league debut this season. Seems like a lot.

Well, it is a building year. And don't forget that Jeroloman is presumably going to make 9 pretty soon. Anybody else in September? Maybe not.
bpoz - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#242179) #
IMO there was insane money being offered to both FAs & Draft picks. If that does not change then KJ could do fine. K Gregg & J Buck did a 1 year with the Jays, they were given an opportunity and produced well enough to get a V good FA deal. That can be a good strategy for any FA after a down year. AJ Burnett did well too.

A 1st round pick is good but so is a D Thon 5th rd, just pay him. The 1year + option seem popular with non elite relievers.
This short term deal should prevent a player from being complacent.
I believe that AA would sacrifice Asset collecting as his team becomes good. To get Rasmus he gave up a lot of non essential parts and took on M Teahen's $5mil, but that is a 1 year expense. I would like to know/guess what a fair salary for Teahen is for 2012.

I realize I am being vague, but we don't know a lot of what AA is doing. The best example IMO is M Olivo, the deal was announced after the acquisition, declining of the option and offering Arb. The exclusive window was ??????????
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#242180) #
I guess McCoy at the top of the order makes a little bit of sense if you believe that he has figured something out at age 30, and really is a .340 OBP guy rather a .300 OBP guy.  He has been walking more in 2011, both at Las Vegas and in Toronto, so maybe that is it.  He's a good defender at second base too, so I don't why the club was interested in Kelly Johnson. :)
Moe - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#242181) #
AA will have to ask himself in the offseason whether signing KJ is worth two high draft picks (opportunity cost).

That is exactly the right way to think about it.  I assume AA will him arb and if he accepts, the Jays have 2B filled on a 1 year deal, easy.  If he rejects, the Jays are in line for 1-2 picks if he departs.  So resigning him would be more costly than signing him away from Arizona.  In that scenario, I would not be surprised if Hill came back.


Forkball - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#242184) #
AA will have to ask himself in the offseason whether signing KJ is worth two high draft picks (opportunity cost).

There's no team that's going to give up a draft pick to sign Kelly Johnson coming off the year he's currently having.  If arbitration is offered, it's going to be accepted.  No way Johnson turns down a $6 million contract.
bpoz - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#242185) #
I am happy to see Mastro playing tonight.

I always liked reading about him and this is some of what I read.
Has speed & gets a lot of OF assists.
Was drafted as a 2B but moved to the OF because he was too hyper for the IF. Somehow he was doing too much and this was a problem. It was not explained but maybe he was trying to get double plays when there was no chance, but I don't know.

He has been mediocre this year which has disappointed me. I think he did not take any time off this past off season, Hawaii and then winter ball.

He should ask Butter for IF instruction. Maybe he can handle 2B.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#242187) #
I'd think Lawrie would be a good fit for the top of the order - flipping him and Thames would make a lot of sense.
ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#242188) #

meh, he was borderline even after an epic slump, and odds are he'd improve his status over the last month and a half.

he was outside type A, to be specific.  so it's projection that AA saved a draft pick.  just a small point, really.  he actually saved some amount of value less than a draft pick.

and if we project that he would have rebounded to regain his type A status, then he would also be likely to decline arb and garner two high picks in free agency (to another poster's point).

ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#242189) #

There's no team that's going to give up a draft pick to sign Kelly Johnson coming off the year he's currently having.  If arbitration is offered, it's going to be accepted.  No way Johnson turns down a $6 million contract.

Far from a certainty.  But regardless, the Jays could live with him for a year in hopes he regains his marketability or cut him in ST for $1m and sign a cheap alternative.

John Northey - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#242191) #
AA has been draft pick crazy. In the first round AA has had 9 picks over 2 years. To get an idea of how extreme that is...

All time for the Jays
5 picks: 2011, 2007 (JPR)
4 picks: 2010, 1993 (Gillick)
3 picks: 1996 (Ash), 1992 (Gillick), 1991 (Gillick)
2 picks: 2009 (JPR), 2004 (JPR), 2000 (Ash), 1981 (Gillick)
1 pick: 23 seasons
0 picks: 1984 (Gillick in order to get Dennis Lamp)

So, who did they get?
In 2007's 1st round we got JPA & Cecil out of 5 picks
In 1993's 1st round we got Chris Carpenter out of 4 picks
In 1996's we got Billy Koch out of 3 picks
In 1992's we got Shannon Stewart out of 3 picks
In 1991's we got Shawn Green out of 3 picks
For 2 pick years...
2009: Chad Jenkins (in minors still)
2004: David Purcey (not much) & Zack Jackson (also not much)
2000: Dustin McGowan
1981: John Cerutti

So the big 3+ drafts were never a total loss while 2009 and 2004 are still up in the air with 2000 marginal unless McGowan makes a full comeback. Kind of surprised that JP's 2007 draft is the only pre-AA draft that might produce 2 regular major leaguers (unless you think Jackson & Purcey will do something) from the first round.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#242194) #
Diamondbacks are going with the 2007 Blue Jay infield that Alex Obal first mentioned above:

Roberts 3B
Parra LF
Upton RF
Montero C
Young CF
Overbay 1B
Hill 2B
McDonald SS
Hudson RHP
Kasi - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#242196) #
I can not believe that a team with a roster like that is close to contending much less leading a division in baseball. Is there anyone other than Upton that would even start on the Jays? I guess Montrero would too, but everywhere else the Jays win and in many cases quite handily. Although if you go straight by position we win RF too because of Bautista.
Thomas - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#242198) #
Is there anyone other than Upton that would even start on the Jays?

If you were composing a roster between the teams, you'd take Chris Young over Thames, for the rest of this season at least. Any offensive difference is made up by Young's superior defence. I might take him over Rasmus for the rest of this season, too, but I wouldn't long-term.
ayjackson - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#242201) #
The WS champs had a pathetic collection of hitters too.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#242212) #
Unfortunately for the D'Backs, they don't have the standout starting pitching like the champs had. In fact...Ricky Romero would be the Ace if he was on their staff.
TamRa - Wednesday, August 24 2011 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#242215) #
only one of which was being replaced, and the replacement had to fly cross-country to get his passport

Have none of these folks ever heard of Fed Ex?

This is similar to Hill's 2010, true, but I believe that Johnson is unlikely to completely crater like Hill did in 2011.  I believe that Johnson is likely to be at least a league average 2B is 2012 (and he's been around average this current season).  The exciting part is that he has a decent chance to put up elite numbers for us if things go our way.


Based on? It seems to me that virtually everything being said here about Johnson's potential for 2012 is identical to what could easily have been said of Hill 10 months ago

 or move one of the three to some other position.  In 3 out of the last 5 years, for example, Johnson would have been valuable even in left field.

Which overlooks the factthat Johnson signed in Arizona specifcally because Toronto offered him LF instead of 2B.

In fact - all this discussion of resigning him, or his accepting arbitration, is ignoring the reports that he's reportedly pretty bummed at having been dealt to the Jays. Some of that is surely having left a playoff contender for an also ran, but who knows how much? I don't think we should just assume that they Jays are in HIS plans, whatever is in THEIRS.
dan gordon - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 12:14 AM EDT (#242217) #

The D'Backs have a terrific pitching staff.  You have to factor in the very hitter friendly park they play in.  Kennedy, Collmentor, Hudson and Saunders have ERA's of 3.09, 3.34, 3.83, and 3.94.  They have a truckload of relievers with ERA's under 3.00,  something like 6 or 7 of them, including 4 who have opponent's batting averages of under .220.  In that park, those are outstanding numbers.  Kennedy has been one of the best starters in the league this year.  Glad the Yankees didn't hang on to him.

They don't have a lot of offense, particularly when you allow for the park, but Upton is having a fantastic season.  Montero is one of the better hitting catchers.  Parra and Roberts have OPS's between .750 and .800.  Young is having a decent offensive season.

They have a similar type team to the Giants, who have outstanding starters, an extremely deep bullpen, and a mediocre offense.  The Giants need to get Beltran healthy.  I see they claimed Heath Bell on waivers from SD today - they must be trying to replace Wilson, who is currently on the DL.  Will be interesting to see if they work out a deal.  Injuries have really hurt them in a big way this year, and there's not much left on the farm after the trades to get Beltran, Keppinger, Cabrera, Sanchez, Ross, etc over the last 2 seasons. 

I could see the Giants being interested in Hechavarria and either Thames or Snider sometime next year for one of their top 5 starters if Hechavarria continues to hit well in AAA.

Paul D - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#242218) #
In fact - all this discussion of resigning him, or his accepting arbitration, is ignoring the reports that he's reportedly pretty bummed at having been dealt to the Jays.

Where have you seen this?
TamRa - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#242222) #
Twitter...no quotes, just second hand discussion. I'm sure that as a matter of professionalism he wouldn't go on record about it.

The thing about him not wanting to play LF has been pretty widely discussed.


China fan - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 04:23 AM EDT (#242228) #
Looks like Rasmus will miss another game or two with his injury. In that case, Mastroianni might stay with the club for another couple of games, while Jeroloman would have to be taken off the roster for a couple of games. Mike McCoy can't be simultaneously playing CF and backing up SS and 2B at the same time. If Escobar or Johnson happen to get injured in the game, McCoy can replace them, but that would leave nobody to play CF. (Unless they want Bautista to play CF with Teahen in the outfield, which is far from ideal. And Teahen, in a pinch, could play 2B but he can't play SS.) So the logical thing is to take Jeroloman off the roster for a couple of days, but keep him in Toronto -- since he's primarily in town to watch and learn anyway. And then, when Rasmus is ready, Mastroianni would be demoted and Jeroloman restored to the roster. My guess anyway.
scottt - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 07:22 AM EDT (#242229) #
I don't think we should just assume that they Jays are in HIS plans, whatever is in THEIRS.

Having him play here for a month is probably the best way to change his mind, and if not, AA still gets some picks.
rpriske - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 08:37 AM EDT (#242230) #

I read quotes by him and it sounds more like he is getting happy about goign to a place with a hitting plan that matches his own.

 

Also, they are no longer asking him to play LF.

John Northey - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 09:52 AM EDT (#242232) #
I suspect Johnson had some of the feelings a lot of players do, that playing in Canada means a lot of headaches as it is literally another country for them. Mix in the earlier request to be in LF and leaving a contender for a 4th place team and I could see being a bit bummed out.

The 6 weeks here though should help kill the border issues for him and playing at 2B will help relax him about that issue from before. Add in the atmosphere which seems to be a good one for the players (hope for the future, tons of young talent) and he might be sold on staying. If not, well, at least AA gets a shot at a draft pick record again. He needs to get 6 1st rounders to set the Jays all-time record - has the usual pick, a replacement one for not signing Beede, one or two for Johnson, Frank Francisco is a B as is Rauch, Camp is just shy of it, Encarnacion is barely a B, and Molina is a B too but by a good margin. So potentially (if Camp picks it up) there are 9 picks to be had (letting EE go, Camp making it to B, Johnson holding A status and getting signed by a team in the top 1/2 of MLB). More likely is 7 (keeping EE, Johnson providing a sandwich plus 2nd or 3rd round ) which would still beat the old record by a lot.

Wonder if AA will trade for non-contending reliever class A's Kyle Farnsworth, Jose Valverde, Matt Capps, or B's Frasor, Joel Zumaya. Or will he do like he did last year and grab a couple just before they declare as free agents. I'm sure Minnesota or KC or another cheapskate team would love $500k for a draft pick.

What is funny is Escobar is just below Johnson on the rankings. So if Escobar has a strong finish he could knock Johnson to a B from an A.

It does look likely that AA will keep increasing his first round picks again this year though. Boy will it be tough on the 40 man in a few years though. Lots trades of prospects for stars coming up I'm sure.
uglyone - Thursday, August 25 2011 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#242290) #
some more numbers I cobbled together over the last couple of days....



Current Starting 2B, 2011 Numbers (* = rookie)

  • 1) CLE J.Kipnis* (24): 75pa, .279avg, .347obp, .603slg, .950ops, .413woba
  • 2) BOS D.Pedroia (27): 585pa, .307avg, .396obp, .469slg, .865ops, .382woba
  • 3) TBR B.Zobrist (30): 546pa, .284avg, .371obp, .494slg, .865ops, .377woba
  • 4) NYY R.Cano (28): 540pa, .302avg, .348obp, .522slg, .870ops, .375woba
  • 5) PHI C.Utley (32): 341pa, .279avg, .365obp, .460slg, .825ops, .370woba
  • 6) SEA D.Ackley* (23): 243pa, .288avg, .366obp, .460slg, .826ops, .363woba
  • 7) MIL R.Weeks (28): 469pa, .272avg, .346obp, .478slg, .824ops, .360woba
  • 8. TEX I.Kinsler (29): 583pa, .246avg, .345obp, .445slg, .790ops, .356woba
  • 9) LAA H.Kendrick (28): 456pa, .294avg, .349obp, 451slg, .800ops, .353woba
  • 10) CIN B.Phillips (30): 537pa, .293avg, .340obp, 428slg, .768ops, .332woba
  • 11) ATL D.Uggla (31): 538pa, .231avg, 301obp, .458slg, .759ops, .327woba
  • 12) PIT N.Walker (26): 532pa, .279avg, .342obp, .405slg, .747ops, .326woba
  • 13) LAD J.Carroll (37): 427pa, .291avg, .360obp, .352slg, .712ops, .324woba
  • 14) SDP O.Hudson (33): 352pa, .261avg, .350obp, 360slg, .710ops, .321woba
  • 15) WAS D.Espinosa (24): 535pa, .229avg, .313obp, 408slg, .721ops, 319woba
  • 16) STL S.Schumaker (31): 307pa, .301avg, .349obp, .379slg, .728ops, .318woba
  • 17) SF F.Sanchez (33): 261pa, .289avg, .332obp, .397slg, .729ops, .316woba
  • 18) HOU J.Altuve* (21): 132pa, .310avg, .323obp, .389slg, .712ops, .313woba
  • 19) MIN A.Casilla (26): 365pa, .260avg, .322obp, .368slg, .690ops, .312woba
  • 20) CHC D.Barney* (25): 457pa, .293avg, .330obp, .371slg, .701ops, .311woba
  • 21) OAK J.Weeks* (24): 294pa, .284avg, .315obp, .396slg, .711ops, .310woba
  • 22) TOR K.Johnson (29): 481pa, .209avg, .287obp, .412slg, .699ops, .309woba
  • 23) KCR J.Giavotella* (23): 71pa, .265avg, .296obp, .412slg, .708ops, .308woba
  • 24) NYM J.Turner* (26): 403pa, .255avg, .323obp, .354slg, .677ops, .306woba
  • 25) FLA O.Infante (29): 489pa, .279avg, .322obp, .363slg, .685ops, .303woba
  • 26) DET R.Santiago (31): 198pa, .247avg, .300obp, .356slg, .656ops, .291woba
  • 27) CHX G.Beckham (24): 436pa, .236avg, .294obp, .338slg, .634ops, .284woba
  • 28) COL M.Ellis (34): 407pa, .245avg, .282obp, .339slg, .621ops, .278woba
  • 29) BAL B.Roberts (33): 178pa, .221avg, .273obp, .331slg, .604ops, .274woba
  • 30) ARI A.Hill (29): 433pa, .223avg, .268obp, .310slg, .578ops, .262woba




  • Current Starting 2B, 2010 Numbers (* = rookie)

  • 1) NYY R.Cano (29): 696pa, .319avg, .381obp, .534slg, .915ops, .389woba
  • 2) ATL D.Uggla (30): 674pa, .287avg, .369obp, .508slg, .877ops, .381woba
  • 3) BOS D.Pedroia (26): 351pa, .288avg, .367obp, 493slg, .860ops, .377woba
  • 4) TOR K.Johnson (28): 671pa, .284avg, .370obp, .496slg, .865ops, .377woba
  • 5) PHI C.Utley (31): 511pa, .275avg, .387obp, .443slg, .830ops, .373woba
  • 6) MIL R.Weeks (27): 754pa, .269avg, .366obp, .464slg, .830ops, .368woba
  • 7) TEX I.Kinsler (28): 460pa, .286avg, .382obp, .412slg, .794ops, .357woba
  • 8) PIT N.Walker (25): 469pa, .296avg, .349obp, .462slg, .811ops, .351woba
  • 9) FLA O.Infante (28): 506pa, .321avg, .359obp, .416slg, .775ops, .340woba
  • 10) BAL B.Roberts (32): 261pa, .278avg, .354obp, 391slg, .745ops, .340woba
  • 11) CIN B.Phillips (29): 687pa, .275avg, .332obp, 430slg, .762ops, .332woba
  • 12) LAD J.Carroll (36): 414pa, .291avg, .379obp, .339slg, .718ops, .329woba
  • 13) SFG F.Sanchez (32): 479pa, .292avg, .342obp, .397slg, .739ops, .327woba
  • 14) MIN A.Casilla (25): 170pa, .276avg, .331obp, .395slg, .726ops, .327woba
  • 15) COL M.Ellis (33): 492pa, .291avg, .358obp, 381slg, .739ops, .326woba
  • 16) TBR B.Zobrist (29): 655pa, .238avg, .346obp, .353slg, .699ops, .323woba
  • 17) SDP O.Hudson (32): 559pa, .268avg, .338obp, .372slg, .710ops, .320woba
  • 18) LAA H.Kendrick (27): 658pa, .279avg, .313obp, 407slg, .720ops, .317woba
  • 19) CHX G.Beckham (23): 498pa, .252avg, .317obp, .378slg, .695ops, .305woba
  • 20) DET R.Santiago (30): 367pa, .263avg, .337obp, .325slg, .667ops, .301woba
  • 21) WAS D.Espinosa* (23): 112pa, .214avg, .277obp, .447slg, .724ops, .301woba
  • 22) STL S.Schumaker (30): 529pa, .265avg, .328obp, .338slg, .666ops, .299woba
  • 23) ARI A.Hill (28): 580pa, .205avg, .271obp, .394slg, .665ops, .291woba
  • 24) CHC D.Barney* (24): 85pa, .241avg, .294obp, .291slg, .585ops, .266woba
  • 25) NYM J.Turner* (25): 18pa, .059avg, .111obp, .118slg, .229ops, .109woba
  • 26) CLE J.Kipnis* (23): ----
  • 27) SEA D.Ackley* (22): ----
  • 28) HOU J.Altuve* (20): ----
  • 29) OAK J.Weeks* (23): ----
  • 30) KCR J.Giavotella* (22): ----




  • Current Starting 2B, Career Numbers (* = rookie)

  • 1) CLE J.Kipnis* (24): 75pa, .279avg, .347obp, .603slg, .950ops, .413woba
  • 2) PHI C.Utley (32): 4665pa, .292avg, .379obp, .510slg, .889ops, .386woba
  • 3) BOS D.Pedroia (27): 3055pa, .305avg, .375obp, .462slg, .837ops, .369woba
  • 4) SEA D.Ackley* (23): 243pa, .288avg, .366obp, .460slg, .826ops, .363woba
  • 5) NYY R.Cano (28): 4274pa, .308avg, .347obp, .493slg, .840ops, .359woba
  • 6) TEX I.Kinsler (29): 3306pa, .274avg, .354obp, .463slg, .816ops, .362woba
  • 7) ATL D.Uggla (31): 3910pa, .259avg, .342obp, .483slg, .825ops, .355woba
  • 8) MIL R.Weeks (28): 3292pa, .256avg, .354obp, .436slg, .790ops, .352woba
  • 9) TBR B.Zobrist (30): 2330pa, .260avg, .352obp, .438slg, .790ops, .348woba
  • 10) TOR K.Johnson (29): 3054pa, .260avg, .342obp, .442slg, .784ops, .343woba
  • 11) BAL B.Roberts (33): 5535pa, .281avg, .353obp, .416slg, .769ops, .343woba
  • 12) SDP O.Hudson (33): 5028pa, .279avg, .347obp, .419slg, .766ops, .336woba
  • 13) PIT N.Walker (26): 1041pa, .284avg, .343obp, .424slg, .767ops, .334woba
  • 14) LAA H.Kendrick (28): 2511pa, .294avg, .331obp, .430slg, .761ops, .332woba
  • 15) CIN B.Phillips (30): 4228pa, .270avg, .319obp, .429slg, .748ops, .325woba
  • 16) SFG F.Sanchez (33): 3868pa, .297avg, .335obp, .413slg, .748ops, .325woba
  • 17) STL S.Schumaker (31): 2290pa, .293avg, .349obp, .383slg, .732ops, .324woba
  • 18) COL M.Ellis (34): 4478pa, .266avg, .331obp, .398slg, .729ops, .321woba
  • 19) ARI A.Hill (29): 3646pa, .265avg, .318obp, .413slg, .731ops, .319woba
  • 20) LAD J.Carroll (37): 3356pa, .278avg, .356obp, 349slg, .705ops, .318woba
  • 21) WAS D.Espinosa* (24): 647pa, .226avg, .306obp, .415slg, .721ops, .316woba
  • 22) CHX G.Beckham (24): 1364pa, .252avg, .319obp, .391slg, .710ops, .313woba
  • 23) HOU J.Altuve* (21): 132pa, .310avg, .323obp, .389slg, .712ops, .313woba
  • 24) FLA O.Infante (29): 3304pa, .275avg, .319obp, .390slg, .709ops, .311woba
  • 25) OAK J.Weeks* (24): 294pa, .284avg, .315obp, .396slg, .711ops, .310woba
  • 26) KCR J.Giavotella* (23): 71pa, .265avg, .296obp, .412slg, .708ops, .308woba
  • 27) CHC D.Barney* (25): 542pa, .285avg, .325obp, .359slg, .684ops, .304woba
  • 28) MIN A.Casilla (26): 1438pa, .252avg, .310obp, .337slg, .647ops, .296woba
  • 29) NYM J.Turner* (26): 443pa, .243avg, .314obp, .336slg, .650ops, .295woba
  • 30) DET R.Santiago (31): 1991pa, .248avg, .315obp, .337slg, .652ops, .294woba
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