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The Jays win, the Jays win, the-e-e-e-e Jays win!   Ricky Romero got a win, his first since June.  I believe that puts the Romero plus Morrow combined win total since June at three.  The Jays are playing out the string and the commentary suggests it gives the Jays a chance to look at the kids.  well they are getting a good look, but it doesn't give us a lot of hope for the start of 2013.

Meanwhile Shi Davidi has a three parter on what happened with Travis Snider and there are some good insider stories in part one.



In part one of the three part story Snider describes his ascent to the major leagues and the challenges he faced with Cito Gaston and Gene Tenace.

Snider’s mind is racing, unsure of what to make of the words just spoken.

Barely two hours into his first day in the big-leagues, having just finished a second round in the batting cage at Yankee Stadium the afternoon of Aug. 29, 2008, the much-hyped 20-year-old prospect is staring at Blue Jays hitting coach Gene Tenace in disbelief.

"Have you always finished your swing with two hands?’" Snider remembers the veteran coach asking. "I said, ‘Yes I have, my whole life.’

He said, ‘You might want to change that if you want to stay at this level.’"

Instantly their relationship was broken, before it had started, even if as it turned out, Tenace’s first impression was right. Snider, the native of Kirkland, Wash., chosen 14th overall in the 2006 draft and widely regarded as its top high-school hitter, tore through the Blue Jays system in less than three years, climbing four levels in 2008 alone.

He arrived in the majors with an upright stance and a swing that led him to often muscle balls, but one that would also eventually keep him from catching up to fastballs inside, a bone of contention for both Tenace and Gaston. A problem they encountered, and not just with Snider, was often in how their messages were delivered.

Now retired, Tenace denies telling Snider to change his finish, though he remembers saying "sometimes you’re releasing (the bat) too soon and I told him it could be a problem from where it is. I might have brought it up to him, but I never told him he had to change it."

 

There is more where that came from:

Already losing patience with his role on the team, things went from bad to worse for Snider when he reached his breaking point with the plan for him to discuss his approach for each at-bat with Gaston before stepping into the on-deck circle.

As Gaston recalls, then GM J.P. Ricciardi asked him to keep tabs on both Snider and Adam Lind, to see where their heads were at, and the pre-AB discussions is what he came up with.

"It was never me telling him what he wanted to do," says Gaston. "And if he said I want to hit the fastball, I’d say well hit it, just don’t swing at those breaking balls."

The whole approach was new to Snider, and he hated it.

"It put me in a position to overthink situations. I’d sit down and say this is what I’m looking for, I watched film on this guy for 30 minutes, I watched his last three starts, I have a good feel for his tendencies, and then hear, ‘No, you shouldn’t look for that, you should look for this."

 

I recommend you read the full story.  I have recently started reading Shawn Green's book and he too starts the book describing his battles with Willie Upshaw and Cito.  His story, and Snider's, appear to have a lot in common.  The next two installments of Davidi's story should be interesting.

We as fans are privy to none of this.  We see a player come up and evaluate him on his performance.  We don't know how his performance is being impacted by the manager, by his teammates or by the coaches.  I always felt you needed a clear head to hit a baseball, most of the best hitters say they see ball, hit ball.  Learning to play major league baseball is a big challenge.  Sometimes a player needs a tough skin and a lot of confidence to stick with what works for him.  Sometimes they get derailed with too much stuff in their heads.

 

Meanwhile the Jays are not getting much confidence into their team for 2013.  Ricky Romero continues to struggle, despite the win.  Anthony Gose needs more AAA time.  Colby Rasmus is still lost.  Adam Lind keeps hitting with little power.  Brett Lawrie has tailed off (in his case it's not a bad thing, I expect a more motivated Lawrie for 2013).  Henderson Alvarez has looked better despite his taking the loss in yesterday's game one.

 

What else is going on?

 

Playing Out the String but Travis Snider Returns, in Print | 119 comments | Create New Account
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China fan - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#263793) #
"....Sometimes they get derailed with too much stuff in their heads...."

That might help to explain why Snider went through some struggles in 2009 or 2010, but it doesn't explain why Snider has an OPS of .651 with the Pirates in 2012. Frankly there's too much excuse-making that goes on in Snider's case. Every young prospect gets tons of advice from various coaches and managers along the course of his career, and sometimes it even conflicts with other advice, but the good prospects are able to use the best advice and figure things out. Snider hasn't posted an OPS above .700 in the major leagues since 2010. I'm sure his injuries were one reason, but most of the responsibility is ultimately his own. Blaming the coaches and managers seems a bit silly to me.

And of course Snider still has a chance to figure it out and turn into a great player. (If he does, should we rush to give all the credit to his coaches?) But it will be interesting to see how much rope the Pirates give him. Many fans have suggested that Snider will thrive if he's given a whole season of regular play, without any benching. If you were the Pirates, would you allow Snider to play regularly for 162 games if his OPS remains at .651 next season? At some point there's a limit.
Mike Green - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#263794) #
Patience.  The man was hitting pretty well playing irregularly, and then pulled a hamstring. 

Snider runs well, fields well, and posted a wRC+  of 93 in 2012.  That isn't very good, but he sure helps a club more than Rajai Davis does, and there is, with Snider, a reasonable basis for believing that he may do a lot better than that yet. 

robertdudek - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#263795) #
If you were the Pirates, would you allow Snider to play regularly for 162 games if his OPS remains at .651 next season? At some point there's a limit.

So far, no one has given him the opportunity to play regularly for a whole season. So I guess we will see when that happens.
China fan - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#263796) #
The excerpts that Gerry mentions are interesting, but equally interesting is the fact that Snider quite candidly blames himself for a lot of his problems with the Jays coaches and managers. He admits that he refused to shake Gaston's hand when he was demoted in 2009 (a fairly big sin for a young prospect, dissing his own manager and showing arrogance). He also admits that he screwed up his communications with Gaston by telling him to stop talking to him before his at-bats -- which sent a message to Gaston that Snider wanted to be left alone, without any advice from the coaches. And then there's this quote from Snider, talking about his 2009 season:

"I was very proud, very hard-headed and didn’t respond to criticism in that fashion, even if it wasn’t meant as criticism," says Snider.

And this quote:

"I made a very big mistake that I take responsibility for, I didn’t shake Cito’s hand, and that showed the level of frustration and the level of maturity that I carried throughout that situation," he says. "As a man in this game at 21 years old, that (adversity) I wasn’t ready for."

If the Snider interview suggests that the coaches and managers might have made some errors in handling him, it also suggests that Snider himself made the bigger errors. Plenty of blame to go all around, it seems.
robertdudek - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#263797) #
The main thing we have to remember is that the player does not have ultimate control of where he plays and how often he plays.
John Northey - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#263798) #
Interesting. Cito was a mixed bag - some thought he was too pro-vet, some thought he was too slow with the kids. Lets look at a few famous ones...

John Olerud: not allowed to face too many lefties, left as a DH rather than at 1B as a rookie. Pushed to go for more power rather than allowed to go for singles. End results? No minor league time, 117 OPS+ as rookie, 115, 127, 186,124,111,116 as a Jay net 130 OPS+. As a Met he had a 142 OPS+ for age 28-30 (prime). 121 in Seattle before brief stops in NY and Boston. His best year was here, but his #2 through 6 were elsewhere. 465 lifetime Slg% but his first 3 years were all below that. Did pushing him to go for power help lead to the great years as a Met? Maybe.

Shawn Green: 117 OPS+ here, 130 in LA (ages 28-31). 3 years of platooning with OPS+'s of 115/99/110 then 117 and 144 post-Cito and before being traded. Did he need to be let loose from Cito in order to produce?

Carlos Delgado: brief shot in LF where he tore up the league at first then died off, short callup the next year, DH'ed as a near full timer, then full time at 1B once Olerud dumped. Peak of 127 for OPS+ with Cito, then 151 first year without and 138 lifetime. Surprised how fast his career ended, 128 OPS+ in 2008 full time, 142 part time in 2009 then a brief time in Boston's minors in 2010 before retiring with 473 HR, just one full-time season away from 500. Weird.
John Northey - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#263799) #
Sound like Snider did a Ducey. Rob Ducey, when first called up, rejected advise from Cito (who was the hitting coach). It seemed he never got back onto his good side as Ducey ended up being given a small handful of PA while lesser talents such as Campusano were hyped through the roof. Cito is a good manager but you don't want to get onto his bad side it seems. He expects and demands respect from players and when a player fails to show it watch out.
BalzacChieftain - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#263800) #

I believe Delgado’s career ended as a result of hip complications. He had a couple of surgeries on it, but the Red Sox signed him in 2010 to see if he had anything left in the tank. He played a few games for Pawtucket, but suffered some setbacks with his hip and chose to retire. It’s too bad he never got to 500 home runs.

China fan - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#263801) #
"....The Jays are playing out the string and the commentary suggests it gives the Jays a chance to look at the kids. well they are getting a good look, but it doesn't give us a lot of hope for the start of 2013...."

I have to disagree with this statement. There's been a number of hopeful signs from the kids -- certainly enough to give me hope for 2013. Hechavarria has posted a .730 OPS since Aug. 12 (every game except his first 6 games), which is pretty good for a 23-year-old rookie shortstop in his first taste of the majors. Combined with his excellent defense, he's showing every indication that he'll be a good major-league shortstop or 2B at some point. (It's odd, in retrospect, that he was never ranked as a top-five prospect for the Jays. He was always ranked lower down, behind the Zach Stewarts et al....)

Other signs of hope from the kids: Alvarez has been learning how to do the strikeout thing; Jenkins has been looking better than expected; Gose has shown excellent defense and has steadily improved his hitting, with an OPS of .737 in September; Cooper was hitting very well before his injury; Loup keeps getting better in the bullpen; and Cecil seems to have discovered his future role. I think there's plenty of hope if you look fairly at the kids.
Gerry - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#263803) #

The big point here is that all organizations try to get the best out of their employees.  Organizations spend millions, or maybe even billions, of dollars to make sure the employees are on the same page, with the same goals, that they have everything they need to do their job, that they are properly motivated and that their managers are trained to manage their employees in the best way.  The Snider story tells of a deficiency between management and at least one employee (although Shawn Green and John Olerud tell similar stories).  You can be sure they Jays are aware of this and are looking at every opportunity to make sure they set an environment that gets them the best from their employees.

And we, as fans, know little or nothing about this aspect to player performance.

Ryan Day - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#263809) #
Shawn Green: 117 OPS+ here, 130 in LA (ages 28-31). 3 years of platooning with OPS+'s of 115/99/110 then 117 and 144 post-Cito and before being traded. Did he need to be let loose from Cito in order to produce?

Green's career looks so incredibly typical that it's hard to imagine Cito helped or hindered him much. He made it to the majors at 22, played pretty well - with some struggles - for a few years, and then peaked from 26-29.

Maybe Green might have played better if he'd had a better relationship with his manager, but maybe not.
John Northey - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#263812) #
September stats can be misleading but... (avg/obp/slg sOPS+)
Gose: 263/333/404 105
Hechavarria: 306/346/429 115
Sierra: 176/263/392 80 (trying for HR too much?)

So 2 good signs and one bad one. If we got a 105 from Gose and 115 from Hech in 2013 I'd be very happy.
Mike D - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:24 PM EDT (#263814) #
Am I the only one that thinks Snider comes across quite poorly in the article as a player and as a teammate, despite Davidi's obviously sympathetic approach?
Gerry - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#263816) #

In his book, Shawn Green says that when he first came to the majors he wanted to take indoor BP from Garth Iorg but that Willie Upshaw banned him from going to the cage with anyone but him.  Green took his frustrations to the batting tee and claims he learned to hit from the tee work.  He also says Cito was after him to pull the ball more.  He was also frustrated by reduced playing time and wanted to play every day. 

IIRC he claims to have won more playing time from his success in hitting by doing it his way, rather than based on any advice or coaching from Cito or Upshaw.

I just found a quote from the book:

Cito and the faction of coaches that had been less than supportive during that first phase of my career were all let go at the end of the season.  I felt as if the shackles had been removed and that I was about to enter my true rookie season come '98, even though I already had more than three years in the Major Leagues under my belt.

 

I am just pointing out the similarities between the stories.  The label on Cito was that he was a better coach for veterans than for rookies.  Cito never liked that label but it seems to have been true for some rookies. 

Gerry - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#263817) #

Mike:

I agree that no-one looks good in that story.  Travis was a hot shot rookie who reached the majors at a very young age.  He was likely immature and not ready for criticism.  He had been successful at every level and probably thought his swing was close to perfect.   I wonder if the coaches felt he needed to be taken down a peg or if they just treated him like a veteran who could handle such comments.

Gerry - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#263818) #

It's Blue Jay story day.  Now Ken Rosenthal weighs in.

The Blue Jays need some adults in the room.

Shortstop Yunel “Eye Black” Escobar isn’t the only issue, merely the most obvious. Talk to people who know the Jays well, and they’ll tell you that catcher J.P. Arencibia and third baseman Brett Lawrie walk a fine line between confidence and know-it-all arrogance. Center fielder Colby Rasmus, meanwhile, is self-assured one moment, full of self-doubt the next.

And:

The good news is the Jays seem to understand what they’re missing. They plan to shop aggressively this offseason, looking for solutions at second, in left field and most of all in their starting rotation.

General manager Alex Anthopoulos, who has spent much of his first three years hoarding prospects, collecting draft picks and trading for other team’s problems, sounds ready to take the final steps toward building a contender.

 

Mike Green - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#263819) #
I have always had a ton of respect for Cito, the hitting coach, but this made me wonder:

His first knock was a ground-rule double to left-centre off a low and away fastball against the Yankees in his debut, and Gaston remembers how, "I thought he was lucky, you’re not going to live on hitting balls down and away."

A 20 year old takes a ball low and away and hits a ground-rule double, and he is lucky?  Really?  Another hitting coach might take the attitude that he is very strong and can do that and that is a plus, although not obviously the only thing to hitting.  It would certainly help him a lot against certain pitchers.

Personally, I think Snider comes off exactly as he always has.  Direct, hard-headed and a hard worker. He was, at age 20, pretty immature, but how many young men at 20 are fully formed?
Mike Green - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#263821) #
The good news is the Jays seem to understand what they’re missing. They plan to shop aggressively this offseason, looking for solutions at second, in left field and most of all in their starting rotation.

So, I guess that it will be Lind and Cooper fighting it out for the DH job.  Cooper is not a great option, but might be somewhat serviceable in that role. 
China fan - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#263823) #
I think Rosenthal just neglected to mention DH as an item on the shopping list. I'm sure the Jays will be interested if they can get an upgrade on Lind/Cooper.
Mike Forbes - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#263828) #
Kind of random here, but how about Darwin Barney at second base next year? I know his OBP isn't what folks here like to see, but hey, he's better than KJ.
Oceanbound - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#263832) #
Second base for the Jays is an evolving situation, some might say.
electric carrot - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#263833) #
I really don't know enough about hitting or managing to have any strong opinions about Gaston or Tenace's teaching techniques.  I'm interested in hearing from those who do understand these things well.  This aside, my main take-away from the story is that Snider, like many in his generation, seems to have been raised in an enclosed world that reverberated with positive self-esteem.  And when confronted with critiques, he was unable to process it emotionally or intellectually.  To his credit he seems to acknowledge this. The ability to critically evaluate yourself and what's working and what's not is central to a game where the league is continually adjusting to your successes.  I would assume that his success going forward will depend some on how well he has learned this lesson.
rtcaino - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#263834) #
I wonder what the contract offer was that he is reported to have turned down.
greenfrog - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#263835) #
"Have you always finished your swing with two hands?’" Snider remembers the veteran coach asking. "I said, ‘Yes I have, my whole life.’

He said, ‘You might want to change that if you want to stay at this level.’"


Fortunately EE wasn't around to receive this sage advice from Tenace and Cito.
John Northey - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#263836) #
Y'know, Tenace seems to have been honest there - he didn't say that Snider _had_ to change, just that he might need to. In truth, the fact it bothered Snider so much is a big negative on him imo. Players have to know the majors is the highest level there is, and that if someone whose job is to observe and teach players how to succeed there makes a suggestion you should listen to it and at least give it a shot. That the relationship was 'broken' due to that one comment is crazy. If Tenance feels that Snider's approach would cause problems and he didn't say anything that'd be worse.

I guess a big part of the job for coaches now is to be able to talk to players like they are 5 years old. My 7/11/13 year olds all would know that is an attempt to help - they might get their backs up but it wouldn't cause a break in a relationship.
Dave Till - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#263839) #
My $.02: No hitting coach can solve every hitter's problems. There will always be a few hitters that don't get anything from Coach A but respond to Coach B.

Cito's MO was always straightforward:
  • Figure out what pitchers are throwing you.
  • Go up to the plate with a plan - zone down, and look for a specific pitch in a specific zone.
  • When you get it, swing hard at it.
For many players who don't approach hitting systematically, the Cito Method is a godsend, at least at first - as I recall, whenever Cito took over, home runs shot up all across the lineup. The recent Jays lineup in which they got 20 HR or more from every spot is just one example.

Of course, after a while, pitchers adjust - and, sometimes, hitters can't adjust back. So, for some hitters, Cito's methods are only a quick fix. Because Cito emphasizes driving the ball, players such as Shawn Green and John Olerud aren't necessarily good fits for Cito's instruction. (But, with Olerud, I wonder: did his numbers decline because Cito forced him to pull the ball, or did they decline because pitchers realized that they could jam him with inside fastballs? I don't know which of the two is true.)

Snider is trapped in a Catch-22 situation. He has problems he needs to work out at the plate, which can only be worked out by facing major league pitching for an extended period of time. But a team can't afford an extended period of sub-par performance - this is the majors, and everybody's trying to win. Snider has come close to finding it at times, between injuries - maybe he will, and maybe he won't. That's why the game is interesting - we won't know until it happens.

China fan - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#263840) #
I agree with Gerry's general point that any organization has to be careful to manage and motivate its employees as smartly as possible. And I agree that it's an often-neglected area, which we (as fans) can't really understand. But my main disagreement with Gerry is that employee management is very far from a perfectible science. Human psychology is just too complicated. Understanding what makes an employee tick, and how to get the best out of him, will always be fraught with guesswork and trial and error.

From the available evidence, it seems that the Jays tried many different strategies with Snider. In 2009 alone, the Jays tried to micro-manage him (with Gaston talking to him on the bench about his approach before every at-bat). When he rejected this, they tried the hands-off approach -- letting him make his own decisions without comment or advice. That didn't work either. And over the following two or three years, they've tried a bunch of other strategies in between. Nothing seemed to work. They tried to tinker, they tried to leave him alone, they tried the compromises in between....

My worry is that this might be happening again with Colby Rasmus. Last year the Jays left him alone. This year they tried to tinker with his leg kick. Neither has worked (except in brief stretches of a few weeks).

My only conclusion: human psychology is incredibly complicated, and no amount of outside tinkering or hands-off approaches is guaranteed to work.
Magpie - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#263845) #
Coaches and managers can try all they want but there's really one group of people can actually get a hitter to tinker with his swing.

Pitchers.
Magpie - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#263846) #
Tenace seems to have been honest there - he didn't say that Snider had to change, just that he might need to. In truth, the fact it bothered Snider so much is a big negative on him imo.

Maybe, but I'll tell you this. Gene Tenace is normally about as subtle as a fist in the face.
Beyonder - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#263848) #
Although the thrust of the piece so far seems to be that Cito and Tenace messed up Snider's swing through information overload, inconsistent at bats, and a lack of support -- the facts are equally (if not more) consistent with Tenace's original (alleged) diagnosis: that Snider had a broken swing that needed to change if he wanted to stay at the major league level. Indeed, this was the team's diagnosis last year. So while the story is being painted (and mostly accepted) as an example of crusty out-of-touch coaching undermining a prime prospect's development, the Snider saga may stand for something much more common and prosaic: a prime prospect who wasn't willing to make the necessary adjustments to realise his potential.

Mike Green - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#263850) #
Must it be black or white?  Could it not be that Snider was a hard-headed young man with a swing that had some strengths and some weaknesses, and that the teachings of Tenace and Cito did not work for him at that stage of his career?
rtcaino - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#263851) #
I wonder what the contract offer was that he is reported to have turned down.   In the article, Shi Davidi indicates that Travis turned down a a contract offer from the Jays.    (I came across my comment and realized it was unclear.)
Beyonder - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#263852) #
Yes, of course there's a whole spectrum of possibilities between the two extremes. I was very fond of telling my OAC English teacher that a failure to learn was a dual failure. The point is to remember that there is a spectrum. The idea that Snider's development has (thus far) been undermined by bad coaching is a thesis that will find a willing and appreciative audience in Toronto -- but it is probably not the most likely explanation for Snider's career path.
robertdudek - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#263855) #
You can't learn to hit if they keep taking your bat away.

IMO the problems with coach/manager were secondary to the above consideration.

China fan - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#263856) #
Snider has been given 1,051 plate appearances in the majors so far. If the everyone has been conspiring to take his bat away, they've done a pretty lousy job of it so far.
robertdudek - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#263857) #
It's simply a fact that the Jays sent Snider to AAA multiple times during his tenure here.
hypobole - Tuesday, September 25 2012 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#263858) #
There seems to be a lot of debate as to how much of Sniders lack of development can be attributed to Cito, being yo-yoed between the majors and minors or his own arrogance.

I believe the last few years injuries have derailed him as much as anything. People have often said he needs to be given a year with 500 AB's at the major league level, but this is the 3rd year in a row he won't reach 500 between the majors and minors combined. Wrist injury in 2010. A concussion last year, then a bout of wrist tendonitis to finish off his 2011 season. This year another wrist injury and then a hamstring in Pittsburg.


TamRa - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 05:05 AM EDT (#263860) #
My worry is that this might be happening again with Colby Rasmus. Last year the Jays left him alone. This year they tried to tinker with his leg kick. Neither has worked (except in brief stretches of a few weeks).

About 7 weeks, actually. From May 20 to July 8 he hit .289/.364;/.604/.968

Now i don't think that's the "Real Rasmus" by any stretch, but it's a long enough term to demonstrate to me that they did do something right and he was tappijng into his talent. All the reviews said that even during the 2-3 week slump just previous to this period that he was hitting the ball quite well and it was just bad luck.

The question for the Jays is - why did that change after the break? Apparently their was some minor injury issues he tried to play through but what i'd be worried about - and this goes to your major point - how much of the second half skid can be attributed to "getting in his own head" and how much to inability?


Gerry - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#263865) #

Part 2 of the Davidi interview with Travis is available.  This one doesn't make Travis look good.

 

Anthopoulos told Snider they would get to it, and with an off-season that included a remaking of the bullpen, the trading of Vernon Wells and, eventually, the signing of Jose Bautista to a US$65-million, five-year deal early in spring training, their talks slipped down the priority list.

Already dealing with an intercostal injury suffered while golfing at the beginning of camp, the lack of contact from the Blue Jays unwisely got into his head, but he was relieved when Anthopoulos called him into his office once Snider returned to action, and told him, "We’re going to send something over to you guys. We want you to take a look at it, and let us know what you think."

Snider remembers another week or so passing with no offer, and by then the wheels really started to turn.

"For me at this point, there are a lot of distractions going on mentally instead of focusing on just the game of baseball and preparing for a long season," he says.

The offer eventually came, Snider recalls it arriving with four or five days before the season’s start, Anthopoulos adamant it was extended with at least a week to go, but either way the window to hammer things was short because they had agreed not to drag things on into the year. Snider, trying to educate himself on the matter while making arrangements to pack up his spring home, find a place in Toronto and coping with a back injury he suffered trying to break up a double play in an exhibition game, started to stress.

"For everything that was told to me up to that point, I felt like is this how you handle it?" he says. "I was kind of put with my back up against the wall."

Neither he nor Anthopoulos would divulge terms of the deal, although Snider described the contract’s structure and details as "very club favourable."

 

robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#263867) #
This one doesn't make Travis look good.

I don't agree with this - what did Travis do wrong, exactly?
Gerry - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#263868) #
He let the off field matters get into his head and that impacted his on field performance.  He appears to take everything very personally.  Arguably, in both part 1 and 2 of this series, he could have had better on field performance if he had a thicker skin and didn't let comments and contract issues distract him.
Beyonder - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#263869) #
Maybe it's just me RobertD, but the problem is not so much what Snider did in 2010 or 2011, but rather what he is doing now. I don't think it behooves a player who has accomplished so little to air his grievances about a well-regarded GM in public. He suggests in the article that AA promised him a 6 month tryout, "sink or swim", and suggests that AA resiled from that.

For all of Snider's talk of a "mental rebirth" and new-found philosophy and perspective, the fact that he gave this interview tells me that he still has a lot of baggage that he needs to overcome.

For me, the story gets progressively less plausible as the cast of villains grows. He starts off slagging Cito and Gene. Fine. He's not the first. But when he goes on to complain about AA, and how AA's contract negotiations were ill-conceived and did not put Snider in a position to succeed, I begin to wonder whether any set of circumstances would have permitted him to flourish.
John Northey - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#263870) #
Very interesting article and series. A bit surprised Snider would do it now as it could easily cause troubles for him down the road (player talking about stuff that was behind closed doors).

The extension is very interesting - suggests AA saw a future but for Snider's rep not to make a counter offer is just plain dumb. As soon as you know an offer is coming you put together a counter plan with dollars and years that you feel you deserve and why. Once the team gives its offer you go over it, see if yours needs adjusting in either direction (ie: if the club is better than yours then adjust yours up, if it is worse than you expected you readjust your thinking and counter lower than you originally planned). If he took it then odds are if all else was the same then I bet Thames would've been sent down instead since Snider was a 'long term' piece.

The big thing I'm seeing is Snider is a very fragile personality. He needs to have it reaffirmed that he is great by many often. If he feels insulted he lets his performance slide. Hopefully someday he gets past that and can be a solid ML player but right now the odds don't look good. A thin skin and MLB do not go along well.
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#263871) #
Having read Travis Snider's tortured and self-serving detailing of his 'persecution' he reminds me of clients that I come across from time to time - ones unacquainted with the truth who think that if they can putty in every crack in their self-serving explanation with another dollop of self-serving, it'll bolster the tale. Snider it appears, is someone whose baseball skills keep even pace with his character. Given the poor season he's turned in for the Pirates, it's hard to see him with a spot on the 25 come spring, barring injuries. I don't suspect he's long for pro ball.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#263872) #
He let the off field matters get into his head and that impacted his on field performance.  He appears to take everything very personally.  Arguably, in both part 1 and 2 of this series, he could have had better on field performance if he had a thicker skin and didn't let comments and contract issues distract him.

All that is normal for a young player.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#263874) #
<i>Maybe it's just me RobertD, but the problem is not so much what Snider did in 2010 or 2011, but rather what he is doing now. I don't think it behooves a player who has accomplished so little to air his grievances about a well-regarded GM in public. He suggests in the article that AA promised him a 6 month tryout, "sink or swim", and suggests that AA resiled from that. </i>

1) He's not airing grievances - he's describing the situation, while admitting to many mistakes that he made. It doesn't come off as a one-sided blame game.

2) Well-regarded GM by whom? He hasn't accomplished anything yet. Besides, would it make a difference if the GM were NOT well-regarded? If so, how?

3) Seems to me that if AA did make this promise, then he did go back on it.


<i>For me, the story gets progressively less plausible as the cast of villains grows. He starts off slagging Cito and Gene. Fine. He's not the first. But when he goes on to complain about AA, and how AA's contract negotiations were ill-conceived and did not put Snider in a position to succeed, I begin to wonder whether any set of circumstances would have permitted him to flourish.</i>

1) I disagree completely with this characterization. It seems to me very plausible. Snider thinks and behaves as a typical young top prospect would, and the GM behaves as GMs tend to (at least in my imaginings). There is literally nothing in these pieces that are shocking in any way.

2) As to the charge that he says AA contract negotiations are ill-conceived - whose words are those? Not Snider's.
electric carrot - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#263875) #
I like the complexity to the story. We have a young guy in his twenties with a very fragile ego, who is trying to own up to his deficiencies, but by the way he describes things you can tell that he still basically only sees things through the tunnel vision of his own id.  And then you see a scramble of execs and managers paddling against this current.  Actually, I think the guy who comes off the best here is Farrell who seems to have a clue about how to talk to Snider.
greenfrog - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#263876) #
What I find interesting is that a star prospect can spend several seasons raking his way through the minors, only to be told by the ML manager and hitting coach that he's doing it all wrong and needs to overhaul his mechanics. How did this happen?

To me, this is potentially a big problem - i.e., young players getting mixed messages from different coaches in the system, and ending up a mechanical/mental mess by their early twenties.
Beyonder - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#263878) #
Robert. 1) "Describing situations" and "airing grievances" are not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, I don't think you could air a grievance without simultaniously describing the situation.

2) Whether he has accomplished anything or not, AA's genius has been lauded pretty much everywhere. His reputation for fairness and class seems to be well-earned. Ask John Buck or Vernon Wells. Unlike Cito, I have never read a story impugning AA's character or fairness. So yes, it makes a difference whether you are impugning someone's character whose character has already been impugned by others.

3) I agree with this, but we don't know whether AA made the promise.

"I disagree completely with this characterization. It seems to me very plausible. Snider thinks and behaves as a typical young top prospect would, and the GM behaves as GMs tend to (at least in my imaginings). There is literally nothing in these pieces that are shocking in any way."

What you are saying here is that Snider's story fits your stereotypes, which is fine. What I was saying is that for me anyway, the larger the cast of villains grows, the less plausible the story becomes. When this was just a story about Cito and Gene Tenace being poor fits for Snider's personality, I had doubts, but could buy it. Today, when AA was added to the list of offenders, I begin to roll my eyes a bit. If in part three tommorow Snider complains about unsupportive teammates or poor trainers, I will be even more skeptical.

"Ill-concieved" is my word, but I think it's a fair characterization of Snider's position. He complains about both the timing and amount of the offer.
John Northey - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#263879) #
From everything I've read about baseball over the years, and what I've seen in university, players tend to stick with what works even if it isn't in their best long term interests as they have trouble seeing those interests.

Snider clearly reached the majors too quick, didn't have failure before thus didn't learn he had to listen, thus was not ready for any critical comments. While it might make sense to go up to a player when he first arrives and go over their swing and stuff to avoid that initial failure perhaps the better approach (especially with 1rst rounders) is to let them fail. Tell them up front that you are there if they have issues, ask a few basic questions (what do you feel you need to succeed for example) and be ready to pick up the pieces after they get a few 4 K games. If Tenance had waited until Snider had some troubles maybe Snider would've listened instead of just going 'dumb old man, why is he raining on my parade'. Of course, that would've lead to a few more team losses which you try to avoid too. Guess it is a case of trying to balance long term and short term.
Beyonder - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#263880) #
Agreed John, but sometimes there's no way to tell how a player will respond to forthrightness until it is expressed.

The worst-case scenario with the wait-and-see approach is not that the player has a few 4K games, but rather that they succeed initially with a broken swing, at which point it becomes ingrained to the player's long-term detriment. At that point a coach has an even bigger problem to solve.

My overarching impression after reading the first two parts of the saga is that Snider is a guy who would have benefited immensely from a few years of college.
China fan - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#263881) #
One of the things that upset Travis Snider (which he cites as a major issue) was the alleged "broken promise" by Anthopoulos. The Davidi story on Sportsnet is introduced with a blurb that refers to a "broken promise." Yet, from reading Davidi's story carefully, there's actually no evidence of a broken promise, except for Snider's perception of it. (And the introductory blurb was quite possibly written by an editor, not by Davidi himself.)

As far as I can tell, Anthopoulos told Snider that they wanted to offer him a long-term contract. Somehow, in the conversation, Snider came up with the impression that he was being promised 6 months of full-time play, "sink or swim," regardless of his actual performance. Yet AA flatly denies this, and it doesn't make any logical sense that the Jays would guarantee 6 months of full-time playing time to a 23-year-old prospect, regardless of his performance. However, Anthopoulos does admit that he wasn't clear enough to Snider; he failed to make clear to Snider that he couldn't be guaranteed full-time play if his hitting collapsed.

Here is the relevant passage -- judge for yourself:

"Obviously they have every reason to be frustrated with me because of the injuries I’m dealing with, especially the one that happened off the field, but I’m being told directly from our general manager that I’m getting six months sink or swim, we believe in you as a player and as a person, that you can get through a slow start in April," says Snider. "After I got optioned we had a conversation to follow up, and I said, ‘Alex, you can’t make a promise to somebody that you know you can’t keep. If you’re going to tell me that I’m going to get six months, sink or swim, give me six months or don’t tell me that.’"

Anthopoulos says he would never promise a player 600 at-bats, but he did draw a lesson from how things with Snider were handled.

"What that opened my eyes to is I really have to spell it out," he explains. "I told Travis that what I would have added to the conversation is, and I tell players this now, obviously if you hit .100 or have an 8.00 ERA during the season, we have a right to change our minds. But to start the season, this is the position you’re going to be in."
China fan - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#263882) #
".... Snider thinks and behaves as a typical young top prospect would.... There is literally nothing in these pieces that are shocking in any way."

I have to disagree with Robert on this. Snider's sharp criticism of the Jays is very unusual, and it goes against all the advice that young baseball players are given. I agree with John and Beyonder on this point. You're not supposed to pick fights with major-league teams and managers. It's bad form, it makes Snider look like a whiner and a troublemaker, and it's bad for his career. What if he crosses paths with AA or any of the Jays coaches or managers in the future, perhaps on another team? Why burn his bridges so publicly? To be 24 years old and giving a long interview where he rips apart a bunch of coaches and managers on another team -- it makes him look dubious in the eyes of other teams. And most other young players don't do it. (Try to cite examples. I can't think of any. Maybe there are a couple of examples of others who have done this, but it's very rare for a young player to make a public attack on his former team.)

And it's not just a little mild criticism. He is saying some pretty damning things. He says the Jays broke promises to him, lied to him, screwed up his mechanics.... It doesn't make him look mature or professional.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#263883) #
AA's genius has been lauded pretty much everywhere.

Oh give me a break! One of the most overused words in the English language.

I was here when the JP worship was at its peak. Let's have a little perspective, shall we.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#263884) #
Anthopoulos says he would never promise a player 600 at-bats, but he did draw a lesson from how things with Snider were handled.

Could this be AA's chance to sidestep the question? Promising 600 ab and 6 months as a regular (e.g in a semi-platoon) are not necessarily the same thing.

I wish that Shi could give us AA's quote directly, so we could see what his response is to the suggestion that he promised Snider 6 months to sink or swim.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#263885) #
To be 24 years old and giving a long interview where he rips apart a bunch of coaches and managers on another team -- it makes him look dubious in the eyes of other teams. And most other young players don't do it.

You must be reading this with blinders on. He rips apart coaches and managers? Please give examples. He merely describes the problems he had in communicating with Cito, Geno and AA. That's it. He isn't calling them names, even admits that afterwards he understood their point-of-view.

It feels like an honest account - he isn't trying to sugarcoat his own shortcomings.
China fan - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#263886) #
Snider uses polite language, but the basic allegations are clear: broken promises, lies, bad advice from coaches... Those are pretty serious allegations, and I think my interpretation of it is similar to the way most MLB people would perceive it.

I do agree that Snider is being honest, and he does seem reflective and self-critical and aware of the other side of the story. Those are all good things. Still, his basic allegations against the Jays are plain enough, and they are serious accusations.
Beyonder - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#263887) #
Agreed on the use of "genius" Robert. AA has done little to deserve the rep -- but he has it.

Coincidentally, in his discussion of Heath Bell, Ozzie Guillen sums up my feeling on Snider:


“Last week it was somebody else, the pitching coach. The week before it was the catchers, and the week before that it was the scouting report. When all these things pile up, then you don’t have respect for someone. When you read every week, it’s another [excuse], another, another ... all kind of stuff. You have to have principles. You have to look yourself in the mirror and blame yourself.”
SK in NJ - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#263888) #

For those defending Snider for just giving his honest account of what happened in Toronto and saying that he wasn't bashing anyone, can you guys explain why any of this was necessary in the first place? Just because someone shoves a mic in his face and asks him to explain what happened, it doesn't mean he needs to go in-depth and critisize the way he was handled. 

None of that interview makes Snider look good or even sympathetic. It makes him look like a whiner with self-entitlement issues. Now I am not surprised that the team elected to give Thames the everyday LF spot out of Spring Training and eventually traded Snider for a reliever.

Gerry - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#263889) #

All that is normal for a young player

Robert:

I would qualify that with some young players.   I have no idea what percentage but Travis does seem to internalize things more than most players.  My impression of a lot of players is that less thinking is better as in "I just want to play, my agent takes care of that stuff", all the way to "hit ball, see ball".  

robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#263890) #
For those defending Snider for just giving his honest account of what happened in Toronto and saying that he wasn't bashing anyone, can you guys explain why any of this was necessary in the first place? Just because someone shoves a mic in his face and asks him to explain what happened, it doesn't mean he needs to go in-depth and critisize the way he was handled.

Basically it's just me defending Snider (remember - the contrarian is usually right). So I'll answer it in the simplest possible way:

While not necessary, speaking out when you don't have to and being honest is a virtue, not a vice.

Snider is no longer with the organisation, so this is just historical information at this point.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#263891) #
Agreed on the use of "genius" Robert. AA has done little to deserve the rep -- but he has it.

Sorry, but can you give me some example in the press where the word "genius" has been attached to AA?
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#263892) #
Still, his basic allegations against the Jays are plain enough, and they are serious accusations.

You see, I don't see them as serious allegations at all. They are barely allegations. At most he "alleges" that Cito and Geno (by the way he says nice things about Farrell) took the wrong approach with him - that it "freaked him out" for lack of a better term (considering he was extremely young to be in the majors at the time, I think we can cut him some slack about his "internalization" of it).

I remember a lot of players grumbling, after the fact, about not being in tune with Barnett or Tosca's approach. It's really a very very common complaint - basically a hitting coach and a player either gel or they don't. The only unusual thing here is the relatively  recent departure of Snider from the organisation.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#263893) #
I would qualify that with some young players.

Yes I can agree with that. I'd rather have a guy who can think than a see-ball-hit-ball kind of guy. But that's just me.
Beyonder - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#263894) #
Now you're just ragging the puck Robert. Ice is all yours.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#263895) #

Basically it's just me defending Snider (remember - the contrarian is usually right). So I'll answer it in the simplest possible way:

While not necessary, speaking out when you don't have to and being honest is a virtue, not a vice.

Snider is no longer with the organisation, so this is just historical information at this point.

Let's say you worked for a highly visible company in a highly visible profession. You got let go. Someone in the media asks you why you were let go and you agree to have it put in print. You proceed to say your boss took the wrong approach with you, your senior manager made promises that he didn't keep, you were never given a fair chance to show your skills, etc, etc, etc. Even if all of those things were true (and I'm not saying they were in Snider's case), how do you think the public that reads your diatribe will react to it? Chances are more people, especially those in the industry, will consider you a perpetual whiner than a sympathetic figure held back by an organization.

Now, let's say that same media guy comes to you in that scenario and asks you what happened, and you say "what happened in the past is over with, I'm only worried about the present and future", how does that come off? Even if you were bitter as hell, it would come off way more mature than doing what Snider did.

It was unnecessary. It makes Snider look bad.

vw_fan17 - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#263896) #
Basically it's just me defending Snider (remember - the contrarian is usually right). So I'll answer it in the simplest possible way:

IOW, "I'm right, you're wrong"?

While not necessary, speaking out when you don't have to and being honest is a virtue, not a vice.

So, you want MORE, not LESS Hillenbrands? Got it.

Snider is no longer with the organisation, so this is just historical information at this point.

If Snider had done this 10 years from now, when his career is either well-established, or over, and Cito/Tenace are long retired, fine. IMHO, to do it now, regardless of intent or tone, is "shooting yourself in the foot with a cannon". Heck, he might as well have amputated both his legs. What GM will talk to him in confidence now? What coach will offer him advice? I'm sure Gene Tenace and Cito aren't happy about what was said, regardless of whether or not it's true. It may, in fact, be sugar-coating things, and that Tenace and Cito are 95% responsible for Snider's travails. But it will still turn off most current MLB managers/coaches. I'd say his career just took a major nosedive.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#263897) #

Let's say you worked for a highly visible company in a highly visible profession. You got let go. Someone in the media asks you why you were let go and you agree to have it put in print. You proceed to say your boss took the wrong approach with you, your senior manager made promises that he didn't keep, you were never given a fair chance to show your skills, etc, etc, etc. Even if all of those things were true (and I'm not saying they were in Snider's case), how do you think the public that reads your diatribe will react to it? Chances are more people, especially those in the industry, will consider you a perpetual whiner than a sympathetic figure held back by an organization.

Now, let's say that same media guy comes to you in that scenario and asks you what happened, and you say "what happened in the past is over with, I'm only worried about the present and future", how does that come off? Even if you were bitter as hell, it would come off way more mature than doing what Snider did.

You're asking me as an outsider, a baseball fan?

First "diatribe" is a value judgement word that is indicative of your bias in presenting the two options.

Second, Snider said that AA made a promise, singular, that he didn't keep.

Third, Snider never said he wasn't given a fair chance to show his skills. Although that is the way I personally see it, nowhere in the interview does he say anything like that.

Fourth, you already answer for the industry in saying that they would characterize the guy as a whiner. I think this is not necessarily correct, as a whiner is still a whiner even if he never whines to the press.

Finally, as an observer, I have a lot more respect for the guy who tells the truth about how he feels, versus the guy who doesn't because of some perceived need to keep the corporate muzzle on. The latter is the safer route - no question.


robertdudek - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#263898) #
If Snider had done this 10 years from now, when his career is either well-established, or over, and Cito/Tenace are long retired, fine. IMHO, to do it now, regardless of intent or tone, is "shooting yourself in the foot with a cannon". Heck, he might as well have amputated both his legs. What GM will talk to him in confidence now? What coach will offer him advice? I'm sure Gene Tenace and Cito aren't happy about what was said, regardless of whether or not it's true. It may, in fact, be sugar-coating things, and that Tenace and Cito are 95% responsible for Snider's travails. But it will still turn off most current MLB managers/coaches. I'd say his career just took a major nosedive.

So what you are saying is that Snider has hurt himself by giving this interview, and that is your main problem with it? Well, I guess Travis should be happy that you are looking out for his best interests.
electric carrot - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#263899) #
OK, I'm just going to say this and take the heat for it.  But it's curious to me how so many comments on this board seem to take the point of view of a kind of fantasy manager or high up exec. 

Concerns like:

What's a fair price point for this player's contract?
How would you react as upper management to these kinds of comments?
What's the best way to brand the team? fill seats?
How will this affect the bottom line?
What's the correct corporate etiquette around these issues?

I understand why people are concerned about these questions and I don't deny they are important, but for me personally "as a fan" dealing with these kinds of questions feels somewhat akin to doing my taxes. Very boring.

And while I recognize that yes, Snider likely made a misstep from a corporate, financial point-of-view, but from a human interest point of view I feel suddenly kind of giddy that I actually got what feels like real insight into the game and its players.



 







Magpie - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#263900) #
I'd rather have a guy who can think than a see-ball-hit-ball kind of guy.

Maybe, but the batter's box probably isn't where you want him thinking. The game is too fast. I think this is what Snider's getting at - he had too much going on in his head when he was trying to hit. The words of the Yogi come to mind, as they so often do...

I'm not sure if Snider himself realizes this yet but it's pretty obvious now that of all the people he encountered in the Toronto organization, the one person who had the least amount of faith in Travis Snider was Alex Anthopoulos.
Chuck - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#263903) #

I understand why people are concerned about these questions and I don't deny they are important, but for me personally "as a fan" dealing with these kinds of questions feels somewhat akin to doing my taxes. Very boring.

I agree.

Some of us are old enough to have been fans of the game back when it was consumed quite differently. We all used to be armchair managers. Now we are armchair GMs. We have gone meta. And it's not just baseball, the world has gone meta. It takes extra effort to enjoy something for what it is, without the temptation to contextualize it and assess our enjoyment of it on some more grandiose, more meaningful scale.

Or maybe I'm just predictably crabby in middle age, doing the rose coloured glasses Norman Rockwell thingee.

James W - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#263906) #
The other issue is that for various reasons, it's pretty hard to picture ourselves as a major league player. But general manager? Sure, I could do that!
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#263909) #
The other issue is that for various reasons, it's pretty hard to picture ourselves as a major league player. But general manager? Sure, I could do that!

Good point - lots of us have to make complex, data-driven decisions on a daily basis. Fantasy baseball/football/whatever goes right along with that. It seems very easy to believe with enough data, we could make optimal decisions..
grjas - Wednesday, September 26 2012 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#263912) #
Well I'll say one thing about AA. He was right and I was wrong about Carlos V.... Wouldn't be rushing a big SP contract to the post office.
Gerry - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#263914) #

Travis Snider, part 3, is posted.

 

Catching himself, Snider regained control, got himself healthy and upon his return to Las Vegas, hit a couple of home runs during a series in Tucson and started to wait for the phone to ring. But in the interim, Rajai Davis emerged from his bench role to take over the job in left field, and that meant trouble.

"I started to slip mentally, saying, ‘What more do I have to do? The guy I lost my job to is in triple-A now, there’s not really a guy there now who in my mind is competing for that job and what are we waiting for?’" remembers Snider. "It took me five, seven days of feeling sorry for myself again to say I can’t play like this, and I made that adjustment."

 

Mike Green - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#263915) #
Or maybe I'm just predictably crabby in middle age, doing the rose coloured glasses Norman Rockwell thingee.

I remember questioning GMs when I was a teenager.  Must have been a cultural thing- jewish left-wing intellectual can't figure out why baseball GM doesn't know how to do his job (strange that there wasn't a bit in Annie Hall about this)...

In the spirit of the season, some gentleness.  I agree with Robert, and would add one other thing.  I am not rushing to judgment about Snider, Anthopoulos or anyone else.  Take the long-term contract negotiation, with the club-friendly offer 4 or 5 days before the season starts.  Many players, agents and general managers set up windows for negotiation because both management and the player have an interest in negotiations not interfering with player performance.  Starting a negotiation 4 or 5 days before the season starts would probably not be a good idea for most young players, but there are factors outside the control of the GM and the player which may have led to this happening.  It may have been (for instance) that the payroll parameters given to the GM were shifting during the off-season. 


MatO - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#263916) #
After reading all 3 parts I found Snider to be quite sympathetic.  Sure he points the finger at various sources for his problems but he always comes to the conclusion that he should have handled things differently. 
Matthew E - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#263917) #
Snider's problems remind me of the descriptions in Moneyball of Billy Beane as a player. Snider's still young enough to pull out of that trajectory, of course.

I was all ready to blame Gaston and his coaches for Snider's problems, as I don't think they did Shawn Green or John Olerud any favours either. But reading the articles, they don't come off as badly as I expected. I do think, though, that they didn't do as much to get him on track as they might have. I know if I was a GM and I had a Travis Snider in my organization, I wouldn't want my manager taking the attitude of, "Enh, if he doesn't want to listen to me, forget him."

John Northey - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#263920) #
I think it shows a smart team would hire therapists to work with the players and to act as intermediaries between players and the coaching staff when needed. I know they can help as it helps people with problems to get them out of their head and with a good therapist who understands sports issues you probably could cut the headache time between, say, a prospect coming up being full of himself and ignoring coaches to listening to them down quite a bit. I'm sure they are used to some degree, but a more aggressive approach is needed I think where you tell players, especially rookies, that they need to go talk even if they just sit there and stare at walls for an hour for the first few appointments.

The ideal therapist would be someone who has played, even if just at the NCAA level, as it would help the player open up a bit more I'd think. Once open then odds are higher of them opening up to the coaches which ups the odds of a good result in the end.
China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#263921) #
"....I wouldn't want my manager taking the attitude of, "Enh, if he doesn't want to listen to me, forget him...."

Gaston didn't say "forget him." He tried different approaches with Snider. He tried talking to Snider before each at-bat to discuss his plan. When Snider specifically rejected that, Gaston decided to take a more hands-off approach. But I see no evidence that this was spiteful or dismissive -- it was an attempt to do what Snider wanted, to let Snider figure out his own approach before each at-bat, to let him "keep his head clear" (as many here have recommended). I fail to see why Gaston should be condemned for trying different approaches with Snider -- including the approach that Snider himself seemed to want, which was hands-off.
Ryan Day - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#263922) #
I wonder how much Snider suffered from the shifting front office regimes. Ricciardi was just about done, and Gaston was generally seen as Beeston's man and pretty much did his own thing, continuing into the first year of Anthopoulos' tenure.

As someone else pointed out, Snider shouldn't have gone through the minor leagues only to be told in Toronto that he has to change his swing. But the minor & major league staffs may not have been in sync, and Cito probably wasn't thinking long-term at that point; he probably didn't have the patience for (what he thought was) a long-term project like Snider.
MatO - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#263923) #

Well, Matt Stairs described Cito's treatment of Snider as either bad or horrible on a radio broadcast this spring.  I didn't hear it but those were two descriptions of what Stairs said. Just because Stairs was there what does he know?

China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#263924) #
The word "horrible" did not come from Matt Stairs but from an anonymous guy on Twitter who tweeted it as some kind of crude summary of the interview. I haven't found any source that gives the actual words that Stairs used in the interview. A slightly more reputable source, the Bluebird Banter blogger, listened to the same interview and summarized it differently, saying that Stairs only said that Gaston "didn't like" Snider. The blogger added this: "Of course, Matt also said that Adam Lind was a good hitter against both right and left-handed pitching. So maybe we shouldn't listen to everything he says."
China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#263925) #
Also, more importantly: Matt Stairs was traded by the Blue Jays to the Phillies on Aug. 30, 2008. His last game in a Jays uniform was Aug. 27, 2008. Travis Snider played his first game for the Jays on Aug. 29, 2008. So in fact, Stairs was not "there" to witness anything between Gaston and Snider. He was never in the same dressing room as Snider.
Shane - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#263926) #

I know if I was a GM and I had a Travis Snider in my organization, I wouldn't want my manager taking the attitude of, "Enh, if he doesn't want to listen to me, forget him."

Nor would I want my batting coach (whom is apparently beyond reproach because he has 4 World Series rings) telling my crown jewel prospect that he'll never succeed in MLB unless he changes his swing in the first five minutes he meets him. It's perfectly fine to notice something that may aid him in the future, but it seems to have been a poor way to introduce yourself and communicate a critical critique to your new 20 year old pupil.

Likely it would seem, this would have happened differently with how Anthopoulos runs the Org now (more scouts, coaches, etc) as was done with Brett Wallace while he was in house. If Snider had troublesome areas in his swing/plate coverage they might have been discovered at the minor league level and been properely dealt with there, not flung on him via a seemingly curmudgeon pair of coaching lifers on their way out.

Everyone could have done a better job along the way obviously. Injuries have been untimely as well, especially the wrist injury in '10 when he really seemd to be grooving mid-summer (as I recall).

MatO - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#263927) #
I apologize.  Cito is beyond reproach.
China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#263928) #
Nobody has said Cito is above reproach. But quoting Matt Stairs as an authority on Gaston's treatment of Snider -- when Stairs was never even on the same team as Snider -- is a little dubious.
Dewey - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#263929) #
 I've just finished reading the three interviews with Snider, and my view is that AA comes off looking worse than Snider.

It's apparent that Snider is an unusually introspective person.  He's mindful of his inner world (and that of others around him--eg., he mentions other bitter people in the clubhouse).  That habit of introspection alone probably sets him apart from most pro athletes.  Did nobody in the coaching staff or the front office recognize that the kid was 'sensitive' (gotta be a better word, but I'm rushing a bit)?  Magpie is right:  AA didn't believe in Snider; and his handling of Snider seems to reflect his own inexperience.  (It's news to him that he has to spell things out, to kids?)  Does this have anything to do with Snider being JP's project?  Don't know.  But AA reveals a couple of blind spots here that are surprising.   Cito and Tenace don't surprise me, and I'm in general an admirer of Cito.  I don't wish to 'whitewash' Snider.  He acknowledges his own part in this sorry tale, maybe even overstates it.  But he was a kid.  AA and Cito and Tenace weren't. 

So count me in the camp with Robert.  And while I'm at it, I'll say that I agree with electric carrot about posts that involve people being more compelling than fantasy-manager posts, with lists of numbers that may or may not demonstrate what their poster believes.  Numbers don't have personalities (except, of course, ones we attribute to them, as in 'lucky' numbers.)  And John's remarks about a therapist are very good as well.  An interesting thread overall.
robertdudek - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#263930) #
Also, more importantly: Matt Stairs was traded by the Blue Jays to the Phillies on Aug. 30, 2008. His last game in a Jays uniform was Aug. 27, 2008. Travis Snider played his first game for the Jays on Aug. 29, 2008. So in fact, Stairs was not "there" to witness anything between Gaston and Snider. He was never in the same dressing room as Snider.

Are you sure Stairs is not talking about spring training?
James W - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#263931) #
Well of course. It was the Matt Stairs trade that led to the Snider call up.
China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#263932) #
"....Are you sure Stairs is not talking about spring training?...."

In the spring of 2008, Travis Snider had just finished a season at Lansing and had never played at a higher level than low-A ball. I don't think he was spending a lot of quality time with Matt Stairs. (I'm doubtful that Snider was even invited to the major-league spring training camp in the spring of 2008.)

In the lengthy three-part story by Shi Davidi, the first reported contact between Snider and Gaston is in August 2008 after he reached the majors. There's no mention of any prior contact.
Mike Green - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#263933) #
Snider did not have any spring training at-bats in 2008.
robertdudek - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#263934) #
Minor league spring training is nearby, is it not?
Ryan Day - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#263935) #
According to the Blue Jays site, he played in 8 games in 2008.

Still - regardless of how much interaction Snider & Gaston may have had in spring 2008, no one talks about any problems until the August callup. If Stairs says Gaston treated Snider poorly in spring 2008, he's the only one saying it.
robertdudek - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#263936) #
Still - regardless of how much interaction Snider & Gaston may have had in spring 2008, no one talks about any problems until the August callup. If Stairs says Gaston treated Snider poorly in spring 2008, he's the only one saying it.

Stairs's opinion on this matter doesn't mean much to me either way. But I find it interesting that chinafan is implying that Stairs is lying.
China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#263937) #
"....If Stairs says Gaston treated Snider poorly in spring 2008, he's the only one saying it...."

And not even Stairs is actually saying that. The only thing Stairs said was that Gaston "didn't like" Snider. He didn't cite any evidence for it. He didn't say that he had witnessed anything. He was presumably making a general comment, based on what others were saying, or based on the fact that Snider was sometimes benched in 2010.

Lots of minor-leaguers get into a handful of spring-training games, without being officially invited to the major-league camp. It's highly unlikely that Snider had any extended contact with Gaston or Stairs in the spring of 2008, and certainly not enough for Gaston to be "treating him horribly" as the Twitter guy claimed.
China fan - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#263938) #
"....I find it interesting that chinafan is implying that Stairs is lying...."

No, I didn't say that, and I don't think anyone else said it either. What I've said is that Stairs was making a general observation that he thought Gaston didn't like Snider. It was probably based on what others said, or the fact that he was occasionally benched in 2010.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#263940) #

BA ... needs to work better on incorporating his bottom half into his swing ... That describes most young hitters.

I noticed this from the next post, and thought it applied specifically to Travis Snider.  I never saw his top half and bottom half working together in any of his hitting.   Somewhere in a prospect's first two years (RK, RK+, A-, A) they learn how it works.   I just don't think he stuck around anywhere to long before being promoted.   It's possible each new stop assumed he'd learned what he was supposed to before moving up.   The fact that he was an independant soul (aka stubborn) and a good hitter already, might have made him hard to teach.   The fact that he made it to the Majors at age 20 showed how desperate J.P. was at the time (problem #1).   Travis Snider, at the time, believed he deserved to be here (problem #2).   That's when we lost him as our star, the brief time he was unteachable.  That is what I believe, my appologies to anyone who disagrees.

MatO - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#263942) #
FWIW Stairs also said that Snider had more opposite field power than anyone he's ever seen (no wonder Cito didn't like him).  So where did he see him?
greenfrog - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#263945) #
Matt Stairs is an excellent candidate for the little-known Fire Hydrant wing of the Hall of Fame. Travis once seemed like a surefire FH candidate, but that was several years ago.
robertdudek - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#263946) #
Kirby's there,  Honus too. Who else? Joe Morgan... Kruk maybe.

Sing it with me: "They'll be with Kir-by, Joe and Honus too".

Thomas - Thursday, September 27 2012 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#263947) #
A certain right-fielder for the Pirates made one of the best catches of the year (non-Mike Trout division) to rob Mike Baxter of a home run this afternoon.
Magpie - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#263951) #
I think we can all agree that someone should have given Matt Stairs 500 ABs in a season sometime before he turned 30.

Hey Robert - Tony Gwynn!
Mike Green - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#263952) #
It should be remembered here that Travis Snider was a very poor fielder when he was drafted.  He was a wide-bodied and a good athlete, but with abysmal instincts.  Many (myself included) felt that he was best suited to being a DH, and others felt that his weight would be a major issue by his late 20s. Perhaps for the latter reason, the organization kept him in the outfield and obviously gave considerable attention to improving his defensive skill.  

His offensive development has, perhaps, been compromised or slowed by the attention to the defensive side of his game.
uglyone - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#263960) #
crazy how much attention snider still gets, even while continuing to stink it up after leaving.

prospects bust all the time. most prospects bust, even the good ones. Snider's just another in a long line, and he seems to have rubbed pretty much every single manager, coach and GM he's ever had the wrong way.

People keep crying that we "traded away a former top prospect for a reliever!", when it's pittsburgh that should be crying "we traded away a former top prospect for an AAAA player!".
Mike Green - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#263961) #
Neither Snider nor Lincoln is a bust yet.  Snider is not yet 25.  He has not developed offensively since arriving in the majors, but he has played well enough that even a modest offensive improvement would make him a valuable everyday player.  It is probably 50-50 whether he or Arencibia (say) offers more value in 2013. 
bpoz - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#263963) #
I had high hopes for Snider. I use injuries as the major factor for his failure to date.

Pittsburgh fell apart. So how good is Pittsburgh? And in 2013? There may not be a spot in the Pirate OF. He could leave Pittsburgh quite easily. He needs ABs to develop and does not have any options left.
uglyone - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#263965) #
Arencibia hits better as a C than Snider does as an LF.

Shane - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#263967) #

"Arencibia hits better as a C than Snider does as an LF."

Hits more HR's, yeah.

"prospects bust all the time. most prospects bust, even the good ones. Snider's just another in a long line, and he seems to have rubbed pretty much every single manager, coach and GM he's ever had the wrong way."

Does ridiculous exaggeration help your case much?

Yes Mike, as I remember it, BA definitely said Snider profiled as a young DH candidate. Who knows how much weight he dropped from draft day to current day, but he seemingly very impressively reconfigured his body and remade himself into a far better outfielder than anyone then imagined.

 

John Northey - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#263972) #
Heh, it is funny how much Snider still means. He was the great hope near the end of JPR's time here and we all bought into it - myself included. Super-prospects are fun to dream of. I remember in the late 80's getting excited about Junior Felix, who was a decent player but no superstar.

Snider in both LF and RF this year has a sOPS+ (OPS+ vs average for his position) of 91/92. JPA as a catcher has a sOPS+ of 102.

2011 Snider: 75 in LF (192 in RF but just 12 PA, -69 in CF in 18 PA). JPA: 104 as a CA.

2010 Snider: LF 98, RF 101; JPA CA 91 in 27 PA

2009 Snider: LF 98, RF 80 (JPA in minors)

2008 Snider: under 40 PA at each position but LF 161 RF 10 DH 123

So checking the past 2 years when both were in the majors at the same time JPA clearly did better vs his position. Snider has yet to hit for more than a 101 sOPS+ at any position for more than 40 PA while JPA has been over 100 at catcher both of his full seasons in the majors.

Now, there is a 2 year difference so if Snider plays everyday next year he will be doing his version of 2011 for JPA. Yes, Snider was _that_ young when he came up. Heck, David Cooper is older than Snider. Hard to believe but true. So Snider still could become a league average player in LF or RF (or CF I guess) but given his past performance I wouldn't bet the farm (or even a chicken) on it.
Mike Green - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#263973) #
If you use wRC+, you'll get a more accurate reading.  You then have to figure in not only position, but defensive performance and base-running.  I would guess that the deciding factor would be health.  Both of them have had their injuries.  As a catcher, Arencibia is probably at greater risk.
grjas - Friday, September 28 2012 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#263976) #
crazy how much attention snider still gets, even while continuing to stink it up after leaving

Right on uglyone. I liked snider, but based on this trail you'd think he could have been the second coming of mickey mantle.

We've got a lot bigger issues on this team than one of a tonne of hot LF prospects that didn't quite work out.
ComebyDeanChance - Sunday, September 30 2012 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#264009) #
Despite the sob story in Episode 1 about how Gene Tenace had the insensitivity to point out the huge defect in Snider's swing, the defects appear to be admitted to by episode 2, as does Snider's resistance to advice and teaching. As Cito correctly observed, Snider would have done well to try to benefit from Tenace's advice rather than complaining about it.

A defective swing isn't a runny nose that you play through and assume after 500 at bats it'll go away. That theory is baseless. You don't learn hitting in the majors, as Bill James long ago observed. Moreover, Snider's race to the majors by Ricciardi deprived him of learning how to adapt to the gradually improving pitching that he didn't get to face.

Anthopolous sold high on Snider, as the Pirates seem to have learned. Davidi's article offers an uncomfortable look at an immature athlete seemingly bound up in excuses and self-pity.
John Northey - Sunday, September 30 2012 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#264010) #
Snider will be worth watching over the next few years. If he improves to the level his potential stated then he could be an all-star and make the Jays look bad. If he stays where he is (a mid-90 OPS+ hitter) then he will be a 4th outfielder and a very frustrated player who eventually is released and has to go hunting for a job.

Hopefully, for his sake, Snider learns from the trade and the reaction to his statements that he needs to adjust and learn that advise from coaches is valuable. That he goes out and finds a personal coach to work with him - heck, given Tenance saw the big gap in his swing within minutes maybe he should see if he can hook up with him and listen this time. If he hasn't learned yet then hopefully being released at some point in the next 2-3 years will get him to figure it out.

FYI: just 8 games started in September for Snider over the Pirates 25 games. Guess he is hitting issues there. Garrett Jones is mixing/matching between 1B/RF (31 years old, 126 OPS+) and Jose Tabata is taking the rest of the RF time (23 years old, 84 OPS+, like Snider called up early, some success and dropping ever since), and Alex Presley in LF (88 OPS+, 26 years old). It isn't like the other 2 who are eating a lot of the RF/LF time are tearing the cover off the ball yet he is clearly behind those 2 in the pecking order as well as behind the 31 year old who was playing at 1B but moved to make time for Gaby Sanchez and his 72 OPS+ (103 lifetime, age 28).
hypobole - Sunday, September 30 2012 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#264013) #
To be fair, Snider had hamstring issues for much of September, but it was noted on the 19th he seemed to be running well and the hammy didn't seem to be an issue anymore. Yet he's still only getting sporadic playing time. The big positive for him is that he's turned into a very good defender, which will keep him employed, and especially because players with that profile (good defense, substandard hitting) don't usually become overly expensive.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, October 01 2012 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#264046) #
Snider will be worth watching over the next few years. If he improves to the level his potential stated then he could be an all-star and make the Jays look bad. If he stays where he is (a mid-90 OPS+ hitter) then he will be a 4th outfielder and a very frustrated player who eventually is released and has to go hunting for a job.

I have to think the bait cutting time with Snider will be this year. Pittsburgh is going to have to decide whether to tender him a contract, given that he is arbitration eligible and out of options. His numbers for Pittsburgh stand at:.238./.315/.317/.632 with a 78 OPS+. I'm fairly sure they don't see Travis Snider as an arbitration candidate. Which I assume means a lowball split contract prior to the non-tender date or else a non-tender.
Richard S.S. - Monday, October 01 2012 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#264063) #

So if Snider is 1st year arby then he's earned approximately $1.3 million thus far in his career, plus earning decent money ($50 K/year) in the minors.  From the 1st day I started working (age 16) until the last day I work, I might just make $1.3 milion total.  I worked at good jobs, but never made $50 K in any year (I did have a couple of near $40 K, 90 work day years, with all expenses paid).

Snider doesn't need to hit well enough to be a star, he just needs to hit well enough to stay employed.  At some point he'll have earned enough to be finacially independant.

John Northey - Monday, October 01 2012 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#264064) #
But if you are a player at the MLB level then hitting well enough to stay employed is not your goal, at least not when you are in your mid-20's. Snider thought he'd be a key part of the Jays for years, an All-Star and potential HOF'er - I'll guarantee that was in his mind when he came up at such a young age. Today he would still be thinking 'if I just got a shot at full-time play for a season I'd be an All-Star'. The concept of being non-tendered would not have entered his mind, at least not until a coach/GM/manager/agent tells him that.

Now, if he is non-tendered I'd go after him. Why? Because that is the ultimate kick in the pants for a player. Encarnacion got that kick in the 2010/2011 offseason and had his highest OPS+ that year (bad April/May then June/July/August saw sOPS+ of 135/151/159 before a cool off in Sept), then a higher one (by far) this year. Still, I suspect Pittsburgh will tender him as he'd not win much in arbitration and should be viewed as having potential still I'd think.
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