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Brett Lawrie returns to Toronto for the first time after being traded to Oakland. It appears the Jays have done alright without him.



Josh Donaldson - homering in Seattle July 26 - has 31 home runs and 83 runs batted in while batting .297/.365/.578.

Other former Jays returning to Toronto are Kendall Graveman - Tuesday's starter - and the recently-released Danny Valencia, who is fitting in nicely so far with his new team. Former Jay hurlers Felix Doubront and Jesse Chavez are also on the A's roster. Oakland is back on the road again after an 11-game homestand that saw them go 6-5. They split a four-game set against Cleveland, lost two of three to Baltimore (thanks for nothing!) but rebounded to take three of four from AL West-leading Houston. The A's are still 10 games back of the Astros at 51-62.

The Blue Jays swept aside the Yankees in New York to extend their winning streak to eight and improving their record to 61-52, 1-1/2 games behind New York for top spot in the AL East and three games back in the loss column. Toronto does hold the first wild card spot, leading the Los Angeles Angels by a game. The Halos and Jays are even in the loss column at 52 with the Angels having played two fewer games.

Series Schedule / Probable Starters

Tuesday at 7:07 pm ET - Kendall Graveman (6-7, 3.90) vs. Drew Hutchison (10-2, 5.42)
Wednesday at 7:07 pm ET - Aaron Brooks (1-0, 1.26) vs. Mark Buehrle (12-5, 3.34)
Thursday at 12:37 pm ET - Sonny Gray (12-4, 2.06) vs. R.A. Dickey (6-10, 3.93)
A's @ Blue Jays - August 11-13 | 350 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
James W - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#308444) #
Just heard on the radio that Dickey is pitching tomorrow, and Buehrle is pushed back to Thursday. The presumption being that Dickey is available on Sunday if Hutchison isn't any good tonight, or if they just want to put the knuckleballer out against the Yankees.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#308446) #
i think hutch gets skipped no matter how well he pitches tonight, tbh.
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#308447) #
Hopefully Buehlre gets the Dickie effect on Thursday.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#308448) #
"Right now, he’ll be stretched out to start," said Anthpoulos. "We’ll see how many innings we can get out of him assuming no setbacks. Minor league season’s over on the seventh of September, and we’ll see how much he’s built up by then, and hopefully no setbacks at all. I know there’s been talk about reliever/starter. If he’s totally healthy, our plan is to bring him back as a starter."

Aug 21 (30 pitches?)
Aug 26 (50 pitches?)
Sep 01 (70 pitches?)
Sep 06 (90 pitches?)

Sep 11 – mlb, 100 pitches?
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#308449) #
Edwin being out again is concerning. I assumed it was just a one day thing.
scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#308450) #
I mentioned this on Saturday.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#308451) #
or maybe

Aug 21 - 30 pitches
Aug 26 - 45
Sep 01 - 60
Sep 06 - 75

Sep 11 - 90 (mlb)
Sep 16 - 100+

scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#308452) #
It's hard to heal on one or 2 days.
TamRa - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#308453) #
I REALLY hate to grumble in the midst of all this joy but as much as I've pondered, I'm still mystified that Hutch and Buehrle were not flipped. If you were going to tinker at all, why pass up the obvious and in so doing put six days between Price starts - when does THAT start making sense?

OTOH, very please with Stroman as starter. Rather have him as any crap he could pick up via trade at this point.

scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#308454) #

scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#308455) #
They don't want Buehrle against the Yankees. It's not like being asked to pitch against Sonny Gray is a vote of non-confidence.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#308456) #
tamra they want price vs the yankees.
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#308457) #
Valencia...
Magpie - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#308458) #
The crew chief has been overturned twice in two innings?
Magpie - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#308459) #
All the errors really have hurt Oakland this year - before this game even started, the A's had allowed 59 opposing hitters to Reach on Errors. MLB average this year has been 38.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#308461) #
some pretty pretty strikeout pitches by hutch tonight, to both left and right.
CeeBee - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#308462) #
The good Hutch tonight. Hope this is a turn the corner game for him.
TamRa - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#308463) #
"They don't want Buehrle against the Yankees. It's not like being asked to pitch against Sonny Gray is a vote of non-confidence."

I get that Buehrle isn't great against the Yankees but Hutch (whom I believe in, long term)  hasn't been great against anyone and NY does use a heavily LH lineup. To me who the oppose in the Oak. series isn't really relevant so much as getting the best use out of the off days. I'll say all this and Hutch will go out and do fine but on process, I'd have had Buehrle going tonight and Hutch tomorrow.

tamra they want price vs the yankees.

Well sure, but I didn't say anything about that. Of course Price pitches on Friday, but if you don't skip someone through those two off days (which they surely won't with Hutch pitching Sunday, then Price doesn't go again until the following Friday night (as will everyone else in the rotation by the end of the Texas series), doing int the other way Price can start on the 5th day at the Phillies, then he stays on either 4 or 5 days rest on out.

but also, you could demote Hutch for Thole for the 16 days they don't need a #5 and let Hutch work on getting a groove without pressure. All that said, Hutch is pitching so well tonight it's going to make my hand wringing look futile but again, I'm just thinking of process. You have to go back to June to find consecutive starts that were at least "okay" so the chance to take your biggest weakness out of play for over 2 weeks, and give Martin a break on catching Dickey, would seem to me to be a no-brainer.

All that said, I don't want to come off as a malcontent in a very rare visit - I'm joyus at how things are going and I trust the men who got us here.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#308464) #
"Well sure, but I didn't say anything about that. Of course Price pitches on Friday, but if you don't skip someone through those two off days (which they surely won't with Hutch pitching Sunday, then Price doesn't go again until the following Friday night (as will everyone else in the rotation by the end of the Texas series), doing int the other way Price can start on the 5th day at the Phillies, then he stays on either 4 or 5 days rest on out. "


but they want Price to face the yankees, not the phillies.
jerjapan - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#308465) #
Valencia ...

I think I recall that name... He was a mediocre platoon utility IF?

Not sure why that name keeps coming up though. Jeffress? Dyson? Buhler?
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#308466) #
82 pitches into the 8th and pulled after a swinging bunt single. Guess we know how Gibby feels about Hutch.
scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#308468) #
Not really. The bullpen is full of hard throwers who are pretty well rested following  the 3 Yankees games and an extra day off.
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#308469) #
I'm not saying it was the wrong move. It just tells me that even good Hutch isn't trustworthy in Gibby's eyes. Not so sure he wouldve done the same with the other guys on the mound. I might be wrong though.
Eephus - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#308470) #
82 pitches into the 8th and pulled after a swinging bunt single. Guess we know how Gibby feels about Hutch.

I'd guess that move has a lot to do with letting a struggling guy leave with some confidence after pitching 7+ very strong innings. As in, take the guy out while he's feeling good, already deep into the game and before any serious trouble can catch up to him. Baby steps and the like.

Put me in the camp that believes Aaron Sanchez should be tried as a starting pitcher until it's proven he can't do it, for whatever reason. That being said, his stuff his some kinda wicked fun as a reliever. Coco Crisp was already shaking his head before the umpire even had a chance to call strike three, as though he couldn't believe a fastball could move that much.


jerjapan - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#308471) #
Is collabello the best surprise story of the year for us? Pillar? Schultz? Hendricks?

I love watching Indy league guys make it in the bigs. Hustle double right there
scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#308472) #
All the talks about Stroman starting is all you need to know about how they view Hutch.

Hutch and Loup are the only 2 pitchers left with ERA+ under 100.
Hutch has been bad but lucky and has only lost 2 games.
Loup has been ineffective (possibly unlucky) and has lost 5 games.

JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#308473) #
Maybe Osuna? Man he's fun to watch pitch.
Lylemcr - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#308474) #
I am happy for Hutch. He needed that.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#308475) #
even when it looks like osuna is in trouble, he's still awesome.

don't know what the controversy is with hutch - of course they're treating him with kid gloves at this point. why wouldn't they?

and what does stroman have to do with hutch? they want stroman to start because stroman is awesome.
jerjapan - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#308476) #
That sounds like a sports town crowd to mW
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#308477) #
Controversy?
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#308478) #
I wonder if the news about Stroman lit a fire under Hutch. Great job by Drew tonight.
scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#308479) #
When I think about Osuna wanting to remain the closer, I think about the TJ surgery and I wonder if he's worried about a career ending injury. Will the Jays humor him or tell him to start?
scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#308480) #
they want stroman to start because stroman is awesome.

And Hutch is not.
Mike Green - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#308481) #
Another satisfying game.  I am pleased that Encarnacion was kept out of the game with the finger injury.  The key for him is to play when he's completely healthy.  He is a great hitter then, but less than great when he isn't healthy.  Having a fine replacement in Colabello makes it a lot easier to do the right thing. 
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#308482) #
there are no starters that would keep stroman out of this rotation. including hutch, sure.
scottt - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#308483) #
Actually, there's only 1 starter that Stroman can push out of the rotation. It's good to have a backup if needed.
Chuck - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#308484) #
No help from the Clevelanders.

This summer I here the drumming
Four scored in Ohio.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#308485) #
No help from the Clevelanders.

Until now! Yan Gomes, who's had a miserable year, singles to tie it up.
hypobole - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#308486) #
2 similar games tonight.

2nd place Jays at home trying to go 10 games over .500 vs a not good opponent.

1st place Mets at home trying to go 9 games over .500 vs a not good opponent.

Attendance - Toronto 39,381; New York 25,611.
greenfrog - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#308487) #
Yan Gomes, who's had a miserable year, singles to tie it up

The Jays have traded so many players that there is usually someone on another team helping or hindering the Jays' cause on any given night.
Chuck - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#308488) #
Bad night for Genie and Milos.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#308489) #
"Actually, there's only 1 starter that Stroman can push out of the rotation. It's good to have a backup if needed."

heh.

there's only 1 starter that he couldn't push out of the rotation.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#308490) #
Pray to whoever you do that for hourly and hope injuries stay away. Getting Stroman up to speed and ready to go is an absolute priority for that possible eventuality. Fortunately James Shields, instead of something out of the minors (Jeff Francis, Randy Wolf, Scott Copeland), is available until if A.A. needs him.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#308491) #
oh the yankee game is on snet. didn't realize.

good on snet.
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#308492) #
Don't forget Melky with a huge hit in the Angels/White Sox game.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#308493) #
Bottom of the 11th in Cleveland. Girardi's already gone through Wilson, Betances, and Miller (and McCann and Beltran are also out of the game.) Warren in to pitch.
Chuck - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#308494) #
Those chowderheads by the lake seem to care little about my early morning commitments. If they don't end it soon, a pox on their both their houses. And a 19-inning game.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#308495) #
should help burn out their pen for a week.
JB21 - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#308496) #
BTW, those pesky Rays won again and are now over .500.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#308497) #
come on, Gomes....do it again for us, it's the least you can do after deciding to become a god after we dumped you.
uglyone - Tuesday, August 11 2015 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#308498) #
boo
Magpie - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#308499) #
Thank you, Mr Brantley.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#308500) #
The Yankees burned their entire 'pen, played 16 innings, and still lost. Ouch.

On July 28, the Jays were 8 games back of New York. It's August 12 and they're 0.5 GB. Pretty remarkable.
JB21 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:43 AM EDT (#308501) #
Enough to put a smile on your face.

O's and Astros losing, & Angels lost as well.
JB21 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#308502) #
O's tied it up. My bad...
King Ryan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:11 AM EDT (#308503) #
Winning is fun.
Cracka - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 06:59 AM EDT (#308504) #
The Mariners won in extra innings -- capping a historic(?) night in baseball... as all 15 home teams won last night, the first time that has ever happened.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:22 AM EDT (#308505) #
Fangraphs now has the Jays at 48.1% chance of winning the division, and 89.4% to make the playoffs... ahead of the Yankees at 46.8% and 89.0%. Sweet.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:44 AM EDT (#308506) #
On July 29 Dickey pitched 8 innings and Schultzed mopped up in the 9th, Jays win 8-2. In the 13 days since then:
	  IP	Appearances
Osuna	 7.1      7
Sanchez	 6.2	  7
Hawkins	 4.2	  5
Lowe	 4.1	  5
Cecil	 3.1	  4
Hendriks 3	  3 
Schultz	 4	  2
Loup	 0	  1

Hopefully Hendriks and Schultz will carry more of the load in the next 2 games, don't want Osuna and Sanchez limited for the New York series.

On a related note, since August 31 Danny Valencia has more extra-base hits (5) than Loup-Schultz-Hendriks have combined appearances (3) or IP (4). Hooray for the 8-man pen.
ayjackson - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:53 AM EDT (#308507) #
That game was as good as its last pitch. That changeup was amazing. Just before it, my thought was "does he have the kahunas* to drop in the changeup here; does Martin have the kahunas to call it?" And he drops in a beauty, low in the zone, 13mph slower than his FB. Unbelievable.


*can't confirm that I actually used the term "kahunas" in my thoughts
ayjackson - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#308508) #
It's funny* that Hendriks can't get much of a look despite striking out just about everyone he's faced.


*might not actually be funny
Chuck - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:59 AM EDT (#308509) #
*can't confirm that I actually used the term "kahunas" in my thoughts

One assumes you were actually using the term cojones. Osuna, himself, may have seemed like a kahuna due to the wizardy of his change-up.

ayjackson - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:08 AM EDT (#308510) #
True
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#308511) #
Starting pitching has been too good. No way anyone could have foreseen what the starters have done, especially in the Yankee series.

And the hitting has been good enough to prevent anything like the Yankee game last night, where both bullpens got chewed up.

Valencia has been great for the A's, but how many PA's would he have had with the Jays?

Optimally, AA could have gotten something of value for Danny V, but would it have been anything more than a C prospect?
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#308512) #
It's a little odd that Gibbons and Anthopoulos are judged on "results" -- in other words, people want to fire them if the don't produce victories -- but the 8-man pen isn't judged on "results."  It gets criticized whether the team is winning or losing, regardless of the results.

Obviously when a rotation is pitching as strongly as it has (close to the best in the majors this month), the Jays won't need the 8-man pen.  And when they are winning virtually every game this month, they won't need a lot of bench hitters either.  So the issue is academic.  The loss of Valencia has had zero impact on "results" where it matters.  But with nothing else to bash, people are bashing the 8-man pen.
Jevant - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#308513) #
I wish they had been able to hang onto Danny V.  Would have been nice.  But I simply don't see where he was going to get any at-bats.  They don't want him in LF.  They have better options at 3B and 1B and DH, and those are the positions he plays.  He is a RHB on a team full of them.  He has limited defensive value.

Would have been nice to have him as the 5th man on the bench in a playoff series, or for the odd pinch-hit at-bat in September, but that's the extent of the playing time he was going to get.

Also, 9 wins in a row.  1/2 game out.  Things are awesome.

Jonny German - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#308514) #
"It's a little odd that Gibbons and Anthopoulos are judged on "results" -- in other words, people want to fire them if the don't produce victories -- but the 8-man pen isn't judged on "results." "

It would help if you acknowledged that different people come with different viewpoints. It's not helpful to conflate everyone's opinion as if it was one person who said everything.

That said, the results of the 8-man pen are that Loup has thrown 1 pitch since July 26. How is that a good result?

I don't think Danny V is any kind of world-beater, and I don't think ditching him for nothing is likely to come back to burn the Jays in any significant way. But he does have value and there was no compelling reason to DFA him when they did.

No, the current winning does not make the whole thing "academic". It's entirely likely that Pillar's recent dip in performance is due to fatigue. But the team does not have a legitimate 4th outfielder and can't rest him. How much bad performance from Pillar is tolerable before we say the 8-man pen is a detriment to the overall effectiveness of the roster? What if Pillar injures himself from pushing too hard through fatigue?
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#308515) #
So "results" are defined as "giving lots of playing time to every player"?  That's an odd way to define it, and it's a very odd metric to prioritize.   I thought "results" were "victories."  Or at least "run differential."  Anything else is academic.

bpoz - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#308516) #
A lot of wisdom on da Box, you are never as good or bad as you look.

I think results count. IMO AA did nothing for the results of the 2010 team. Injuries & bad luck affected his 2011,12,13 & 14 teams. Lack of depth in pitching was exposed. The 2015 team if they win it all will go down in history. They still will be fondly remembered if they make the post season. If so nobody will criticize them much, if at all. But I still say as do other Bauxites that the RH part of the pen was not addressed well enough prior to the start of this season.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#308517) #
China Fan,

I find it a little odd that you have to complain about people complaining.

With all due respect you attempting tie in complaints about the 8 man pen and complaining about gibbons/AA results is tenuous at best. If the 8 man was being utilized to get to where we are, there wouldn't be any issues. But many feel an 8 man pen is a luxury and only a necessity in rare cases where you burn through a pen. And can be managed through optioning of players.

Even Gibbons admits that a 4th OF is likely to be brought in and they'll go to a 7 man pen. The biggest issue for Gibbons is the one least deserving of a spot in the pen is the LOGGY he would like to have and the one that has performed in the past but has failed utterly this year. I would think since Gibbons is looking ahead to a 7 man pen, it's perfectly logical for us to question the current decision to have a 8 man pen.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#308518) #
Here's another way of looking at it.  Drew Hutchison just threw a very nice 7 innings. The club has some days off through September 1, and all of the other starting pitchers have been going deep into games.  Wouldn't it be better to have a 4th outfielder on the roster rather than an 8th reliever now? I have made known my preference for Pompey, but Carrera could fill the role perfectly adequately in my view. 
Jevant - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#308519) #
Since I tend to agree that Pompey should play every day as long as he can, and we are talking about a 4th OF, I would absolutely agree that a real 4th OF that can legitimately play the OF corners should be called up to the roster, probably Carrera, or someone else outside the organization (De Aza would also be a really nice piece).
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#308520) #
Starting Pitching is so very good because they absolutely trust their Bullpen. When they don't have to "over" pitch because they can't afford to give up a run, their stuff becomes just a touch better. Trying harder for Pitchers is seldom a success, being better is. Just makes you drool thinking about the prospects of having a better Bullpen from Day One - (82-32) twenty more wins?

Really! The Jays are 12-23 in one-run games. Relief has a 12-18 W-L Pitcher of Record results. Blown saves are massively excessive and too depressing to count. The Defense, despite issues at SS and LF, was pretty good. The Offense has never really been an issue, it's that good. All the Starting Pitching wasn't that bad, just not that effective. Does better Relief make that much difference? Yes! I think so.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#308521) #
"That said, the results of the 8-man pen are that Loup has thrown 1 pitch since July 26. How is that a good result?"

Here's how it's a good result. It means the starters have pitched deep into games. it means the bullpen guys who have pitched have been effective in holding leads. It means the Jays hitters have come up with the clutch hit when it mattered so games didn't go into extra innings ( possibly multiple times). It means the Jays have not been blown out in any ballgames. It means the worst guy in the bullpen has only had to throw 1 pitch.

The only negatives are that we haven't blown out other teams, allowing the bullpens lesser lights to get work, and yeah give Pillar some rest, although Monday was an off day and there are 2 more coming up in the next 8 days.


Both viewpoints (8 man pen, extra position player) were defensible at the time. I'm positive it wasn't a quick or an easy decision at the time for AA. But it has worked out. Not going to complain.
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#308522) #
"....it's perfectly logical for us to question the current decision to have a 8 man pen..."

And it's also logical for me to question the questioners!   These are the debates that are encouraged on this site.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#308523) #
i imagine valencia would have had about as much playing time as loup over this stretch.

as for value, valencia has been moved nearly every year of his career, and has yet to get traded for any value.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#308524) #
"Here's how it's a good result...."

Nothing you said is a result of the 8-man pen. The results you're talking about would be identical if the team simply played with a 24-man roster.
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#308525) #
"....I would absolutely agree that a real 4th OF that can legitimately play the OF corners should be called up to the roster...."

That's one perspective.  Others are saying that the 4th OF should be able to replace Pillar, so that eliminates Carrera from the discussion.  Really, there's no simple answer to the 4th OF question.  I realize that others disagree about this, but in my view Pompey was found lacking on CF defence in April, and I notice that he's still playing LF in some games in Buffalo, so perhaps the Jays see him as a corner outfielder, not a CF, in the future. 

Anthopoulos has made it very clear that he's shopping for a 4th OF.  This, to me, suggests that the Jays are looking for a back-up who can play good CF defence, because there's no shortage of back-up corner outfielders in the system. 

In any event, with all the rest days this month, the Jays may have simply decided that Pillar is not as fatigued as we have assumed.  And that he can continue playing CF until the Jays are able to acquire a proper back-up CF in a trade or waiver claim -- or until September when rosters expand and the Jays could promote Fields.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#308526) #
"And it's also logical for me to question the questioners!"

Yeah I feel sometimes you just enjoy being the contrarian.

Jonny German - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#308527) #
"valencia has been moved nearly every year of his career, and has yet to get traded for any value."

So I take it you're in favour of DFAing Hendriks immediately?
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#308528) #
" I notice that he's still playing LF in some games in Buffalo, so perhaps the Jays see him as a corner outfielder, not a CF, in the future"

Or perhaps they feel Pillar has cemented his grip on CF at this point in time and would likely deploy Pompey or get him some reps in LF since both CF/RF are taken.

My understanding of Fields was that he wasn't a good fielder. That he would potentially brought up for his speed, pinch running, base stealing abilities rather than his defensive value.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#308529) #
Huh? You asked how Loup only throwing 1 pitch is a good result. It is a good result, no matter the roster construction.

Jonny German - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#308530) #
If only the Jays already had another everyday player on the major league roster who has played 404 of his 567 major league games in centre field.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#308531) #
"My understanding of Fields was that he wasn't a good fielder."

Someone here said that, but yesterday I googled,"Roemon Fields defence" and only found positive reviews.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#308532) #
"So I take it you're in favour of DFAing Hendriks immediately?"

hendriks was waived twice in the same year we traded him for valencia.
Jevant - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#308533) #
I was going to clarify that Revere can handle CF to cover a Pillar off-day if you have a real corner OF on the roster, but you seem to have covered this with more humour than I would have used, so I'll defer to you here. :)

Provided it was actually humour, and not snark.

cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#308534) #
"Relief has a 12-18 W-L Pitcher of Record results."

According to my calculations the relievers are 13-20 when factoring into the results. The starters are 49-32 when they are the pitcher of record. You have to like the starters w-l record as it's more in line with their Pythagorean w-l.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#308535) #
You know things are going well when the big debate is Loup vs Valencia as the 25th man on the roster.
Goins playing everyday hasn't been an issue, 10 games in August 259/429/370 - wow.  Mix that with his amazing defense and no wonder the Jays are winning every game.
Go from July 26th (when Goins started playing virtually everyday) and you have a 227/352/318 line.  Seems the more he plays the better he does, although 1 for his last 14 isn't nice.

Good timing for a hot streak from Goins - probably due to other teams not wanting to waste their LOOGY on him and pitchers going 'phew, the one weak spot in the lineup' when he comes up.

No question a backup CF would be nice.  Pompey will be here in September but I'd debate calling him up early to keep Pillar fresh if it wasn't for all these days off coming up. In August Pillar is hitting just 118/189/118. 

Valencia wouldn't have helped Pillar though.  Valencia's only role would be to hit for Goins late in the game if the Jays are trailing.  A very rare thing lately.

China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#308536) #
"....If only the Jays already had another everyday player on the major league roster who has played 404 of his 567 major league games in centre field....."

I've been assuming that the Jays believe Revere's defence to be a substantial downgrade from Pillar in CF.  I've also noticed that the Phillies, too, were playing Revere more often in LF than in CF this year. But perhaps you have an alternative theory?  Is it your theory (as your sarcasm implies) that the Jays are merely too stupid to be aware of Revere's career history? Or too stupid to act on it?
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#308537) #
"....I feel sometimes you just enjoy being the contrarian...."

Consistent optimism, and a belief that Gibbons and Anthopoulos might not be total idiots who deserve firing at the end of the season, gets me classified as a contrarian here.
Jevant - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#308538) #
You know things are going well when the big debate is Loup vs Valencia as the 25th man on the roster.

Not only that, but it's a temporary debate, that wouldn't even be a discussion if Travis and/or Saunders were healthy.  Fun stuff, fun times.

As we all learned from the Lego Movie: "Everything is Awesome" (in Blue Jay land right now).
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#308539) #
I'm all in favour of contrarian thinking.  On the other hand,"I think that the club needs an 8th reliever more than a 4th outfielder right here and right now because Gibbons and Anthopoulos seem to think so" isn't really contrarian.  As Mink DeVille once sang, just give me one good reason.
Lylemcr - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#308540) #
You know you are a good team when the player you release off your roster becomes the #4 hitter on another team.

Just saying...

I think they should skip Hutch one day against the Yankees. It is too important of a game to gamble with.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#308541) #
On the topic of Valencia:

Just looked at Valencia's splits. His overall 144 wRC+ places him 21st of 289 players with 190+ PA's.

He has had more PA's this year vs RHP than LHP. 147 wRC+ vs RHP, 141 vs LHP.

That can't last; his 3% BB/25% K vs RHP is one indicator of that. However, how can his wRC+ vs RHP be so good with such a low BB% (and a not outlandish .348 BABIP)?

Against righties this year, he has a .290 ISO. To put that in some perspective, among qualified hitters this year, Mark Texiera is the only player not named Harper or Trout with an ISO that high.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#308542) #
Valencia has 100 at-bats against RHP this year.  In those 100 at-bats, he has 11 doubles and 6 homers.  He is pulling the ball more against RHPs and has achieved a little more hard contact, but his 25% HR/FB against RHP has a lot of luck in it.  It does however appear to me that he may have learned a little something and be a decent everyday player for a few years.  He has a career wRC+ of 73 against RHPs.  If he can get it to 85-90, then he's an everyday third baseman. 
jerjapan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#308543) #
wow, those numbers do pop out Hypobole..

one reason I wish we had been able to find a way to keep Valencia is that he seems like a genuinely likable guy who had fun playing in TO.  this DFA has clearly been good for his career though - perhaps next year he sticks with one team!

I also feel for Jose Reyes right about now.  his contract was a problem, as was his glove, but I really enjoyed his personality and watching him on the basepaths.  I'd hoped he'd benefit from getting off the turf and from the coors effect, but he's been brutal in 12 games for the Rockies.

with the best stretch of Jays baseball I can ever remember behind us, it looks like prioritizing roster construction over team chemistry is working right now.  
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#308544) #
"I think they should skip Hutch one day against the Yankees."

I agree with this, but not so much for the reason that it's an important game though I don't want to discount that either. My main reason is that you have 2 off days in quick succession and while I can understand pushing starters back by 1 day, pushing them back by more than should be avoided.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#308545) #
Interesting read of an article by Simmons on the Donaldson trade, that the hardest part about the trade for AA was Graveman. And here I thought I was one of only a few that valued him more than the general consensus.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#308546) #
Article or not, the hardest part of the Donaldson trade was Franklin Barretto.

And it wasn't that hard when you realize that the guy coming back was Josh Freakin Donaldson.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#308547) #
This hand-wringing over Valencia's departure reminds me of when all the brilliant minds were convinced AA lost value when he traded Lind, as if they knew more than the 30 MLB GMs who clearly didn't value Lind very much despite his proficiency vs RHP. Is it not reasonable to assume that AA gauged the interest in Valencia, saw it was rather minimal, and decided to cut bait? If he had value, wouldn't the phone have been ringing off the hook when other teams heard he was DFA?

For me, the Valencia and 8-man bullpen discussions are mutually exclusive. I agree with the sentiment that there is no way AA could've predicted the SPs going on the roll they are currently on and that having 8 arms around until things settled down made sense. That being said, at this point the rotation has settled in and you've played the last 2 games with a bench of Navarro & Pennington, so I don't understand why Loup hasn't been optioned to the minors.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#308548) #
"Article or not, the hardest part of the Donaldson trade was Franklin Barretto"

Huh? Your point is what exactly?

Barretto likely was the most valuable piece the Blue Jays traded but not necessarily the hardest. Obviously AA had to give up both highly touted prospects and MLB players to land Donaldson. My takeaway from the article is that AA was perhaps higher on Graveman than MANY WOULD EXPECT. That he saw Graveman contributing to the Blue Jays in 2015 which made it harder to part with him than one would expect, that he wasn't just a throw in.

Dave Till - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#308549) #
I still don't understand why Oakland were willing to trade Donaldson. Was Billy Beane not paying attention?

About the whole fourth outfielder thing: the Jays were originally planning on using an outfield of Saunders, Pompey, and Bautista. Pillar was going to be the fourth outfielder, and Revere is now the fifth. I think it's a little harsh to expect AA to have had a Plan D available - Colabello and Carrera have done about as well as could be hoped.

I feel sorry for Danny Valencia. Last year, he was on the playoff-bound Kansas City Royals, and got traded to Toronto. This year, the Jays have a good chance of making it to the postseason, and Valencia has just been sent to Oakland, who do not. But I can see why the Jays got rid of him: the only thing he does really well is hit left-handed pitching, and the Jays have approximately 38 people who can already do that. Valencia isn't particularly fast, doesn't hit for a lot of power, and isn't more than an emergency defender at any position other than third base, which is kind of occupied at the moment.

Re Loup versus Cecil: do you remember that bad stretch when Cecil got bombed in multiple games in mid-June? Cecil hasn't allowed any earned runs since then. And he's allowed only one inherited runner to score (granted, he's only inherited five runners total). So I would venture to say that Cecil has taken all of Loup's innings.

I assume that Loup's role at present is to serve as emergency left-hander ("in case of David Ortiz, break glass"). And I think he deserves a bit of a rest: I believe he was leading the league in appearances at one point. He's still second on the team in games pitched, despite his recent sabbatical.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#308550) #
I wondered about pitchers like Drew Hutchison who had thrown a significant number of innings before age 25 with a pretty good FIP and a poor ERA.  So, I ran a Play Index for pitchers who had thrown at least 300 innings by age 25 with a FIP of less than 4.25 and an ERA between 4.5 and 5.25 and an ERA+ of 90 or less.  There were 24 pitchers including Vern Law, Chris Bosio, Pete Schourek, Denny Neagle, Todd Stottlemyre, Neal Heaton, Bob Walk, Bobby Witt, Mike Kekich, Denny Galehouse, Johnny Klippstein and Willard Nixon (and of course, the great Dick Pole).  A few of the pitchers, like David Clyde, were done by age 24.  On balance, the FIP seemed to be a predictor of improved performance in the ERA department over time. 
Dave Till - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#308551) #
One other point: I think the Jays' willingness to have a short bench is the result of two things:

- Their AAA club is in Buffalo, not Las Vegas. They can have an emergency replacement available quickly if needed.

- They don't really need any reserve players to fill a role (except for Navarro as spare catcher). The starters are good enough defensively that late-inning defensive subs are no longer needed. Everybody but Goins is good enough to not need to be pinch-hit for, and even Goins has been doing better lately.

The extra pitchers serve one useful purpose: having people around to handle extra innings. If a game goes into the 13th or something, Schultz and Hendricks are available.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#308552) #
Re: the Simmons Donaldson article, I wonder how Dane Johnson defines "makeup"?

Also asked the following question a couple of months ago and only got 1 reply (which was much different than mine).

"if, at the time of the trade, Beane pie charted the 4 players value we sent for Josh, how would it look?

My guess: Barreto 45%, Lawrie 28%, Graveman 23% Nolin 4%."

ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#308553) #
But I can see why the Jays got rid of him: the only thing he does really well is hit left-handed pitching,

This year Valencia has a higher OPS vs. rhp (.907) than against against lhp (.866) based upon more PA's vs. righties than lefties (105 vs. 90). He also backs up 3b.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#308554) #
"My guess: Barreto 45%, Lawrie 28%, Graveman 23% Nolin 4%"

Interesting take that you felt Beane would value Graveman as close to Lawrie even though he was more a prospect that MLB pitcher. Though I admit that would be closer to what I thought Graveman's value.

My guess on what other Bauxites might've felt the value division would be:
45% Barretto, 40 Lawrie, 10% Graveman, 5% Nolin.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#308555) #
That he saw Graveman contributing to the Blue Jays in 2015 which made it harder to part with him than one would expect, that he wasn't just a throw in.

That's exactly the takeaway I got from the article. If your goal is to win MLB games from, say, 2015-2017, Franklin Barreto is mostly irrelevant. But Graveman is very relevant, because the Jays believed he could be a low-cost, reliable starting pitcher over that time (and so far, it looks like they were correct).
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#308556) #
tbh i think the Valencia obsession comes down to two factors:

1. Colabello's awful LF defense
2. Valencia's gorgeous face and winning smile.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#308557) #
just a friendly reminder that other than a short hot streak after his re call, Graveman has been pretty much terrible this year. hasn't been very good even with that hot streak, tbh.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#308558) #
Re: 25th man

1. I still think Schultz is the 8th guy, not Loup.
2. Revere add meant no more OF for cola or valencia, ever. That left 3 guys fighting for 1B time, and valencia with his platoon weakness historically was the odd man out.
3. remember at the time they wanted to bring up Thole to rest martin.
4. carrera is almost done his 10 day minimum and pompey could be called at any time.

hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#308559) #
Good point uglyone. Graveman's value is in the 5 more years of team control, not anything he has done or would have done this year.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#308560) #
"Graveman has been pretty much terrible this year. hasn't been very good even with that hot streak, tbh"

"Graveman's value is in the 5 more years of team control, not anything he has done or would have done this year."

I don't know, I'd think he would've likely had value this year by replacing the starts that Copeland/Boyd/Dubront took. Obviously this is all moot since he was traded in order to complete the Donaldson trade.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#308561) #
I wasn't aware that Stroman started pitching with the knee brace on. 

The Jays have sent Roemon Fields down from Buffalo to New Hampshire. 

hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#308562) #
Boyd had -0.4 WAR in 2 games (though he is at 0.5 WAR in 2 Tigers starts), but would Graveman have outpitched the other 2?

Doubront 4 starts 0.4 WAR
Copeland 3 starts 0.3 WAR

Graveman 19 starts 0.4 WAR
Jevant - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#308563) #
It's funny to me that with all the talk about listing all the ex-Jays on the current A's, Doubrount always gets omitted (or has been every time I've seen the list this week on various media outlets).
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#308564) #
".....On the other hand,"I think that the club needs an 8th reliever more than a 4th outfielder right here and right now because Gibbons and Anthopoulos seem to think so" isn't really contrarian...."

To be fair, Mike, that's never been what I've said.  I've never just deferred to AA and Gibbons on this.  I've offered a bunch of reasons, ranging from Pompey's need for full-time playing time, and his relative defensive skills compared to Pillar, to the value of bullpen depth at this time of year and the widespread concern about Hutchison's propensity for imploding early in ballgames.  (And hypobole has given several reasons too.)  They might not be "good" reasons in your view, and of course there's plenty of people who disagree with my argument, but it's not fair to suggest that I am merely bowing to the opinion of Jays management.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#308566) #
A.A.'s after a very good quality fourth Outfielder. Anything less might be defeating the purpose of actually acquiring one if he's not that good. I don't have any idea how much money A.A. has left, so it's possible he need to "sweeten" the offer to get any salary thrown in. I also don't know how stiff the competition he has for those he's interested in. It could be very tough.

It is my thought that when another hot MLB-ready/near MLB-ready Outfield prospect reaches AA/AAA, Dalton Pompey gets traded, if not before. If Michael Saunders can play in September, or A.A's OF addition has term, Dalton's at risk or gone for sure this Offseason. Anyone who admits being overwhelmed like he did is unlikely to get another chance unless he crushes AAA. Right now, he's only playing very well.

Any interest in another Starter will bear on who's available/clears waivers/reaches the Jays on a waiver claim. Norris on a minor league deal was A.A.'s likely interest, until he signed a MLB deal. Shields is extremely expensive, especially as it seems like he's becoming less effective. Anything A.A. does is unlikely to occur before month's end or within a few days before at earliest. I don't think anything get done here unless it captures A.A. interests.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#308567) #
If you believe that an 8 man pen is a good idea in August with lots of days off and David Price here, we have a disagreement. 

The argument about a 4th outfielder has nothing to do with the player (be it Carrera, Pompey or someone else) being as good as Pillar or Ben Revere.  It is simply about the desirability of having someone who can give the 3 other outfielders the day off from time to time and of having the ability to address routine in-game circumstances as they appear.  Right now, if you pinch-hit for Goins at some point in the game, you have essentially no bench at all.  You have no way of dealing with an in-game minor injury to any one of about 6 players (all the outfielders, and the infielders save the first baseman).  Russ Martin, second baseman, would be tempting fate. 

China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#308568) #
All of the love for Valencia these days is interesting.  A few weeks ago, on this site, I noted mildly that Valencia was hitting a lot better against RHP this season and may have turned the corner, but I was shot down quite swiftly.  The argument against me at the time was that his good 2015 numbers against RHP were insignificant in comparison to his bad career numbers against RHP.  Similarly, I remember that some people ridiculed Gibbons last season for occasionally playing Valencia against RHP.  They heaped scorn on him and mocked him for thinking that Valencia could hit against RHP.   What has changed, and what is the view of those people people?  I would have thought that they would be defending the Jays for dumping Valencia, but I haven't heard from most of them recently.  (And please, I'm not being argumentative and I'm not presuming to know the answer -- I'm just asking for the purposes of information, because I'm curious to know whether the earlier arguments against Valencia are still seen as valid or whether something has changed in the evidence recently.)
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#308569) #
Even though I understood the logic of the 8 man pen a couple of weeks ago, right here and now I would believe another position player, preferably with OF skills would better serve the roster, especially with Eddie's finger issue.
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#308570) #
".... Right now, if you pinch-hit for Goins at some point in the game, you have essentially no bench at all...."

Cliff Pennington says hello.


".....You have no way of dealing with an in-game minor injury to any one of about 6 players (all the outfielders, and the infielders save the first baseman).  Russ Martin, second baseman, would be tempting fate....."


Why use Martin at 2B when Pennington is perfectly fine there?

The bench is a little thin right now because of Encarnacion's injury.  But it would be crazy to put him on the DL when he's likely to be returning to action tomorrow.

You mentioned all the days off this month, as an argument against the 8-man pen.  It's also an argument for having a bench that's a little thinner than normal, since the over-worked hitters have more time off than usual.

China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#308571) #
Guessing further at what Mike meant, I suppose he is saying that the Jays might use Navarro to pinch-hit for Goins and then would have to put Pennington at 2B and then would have nobody else on the bench (except Martin) who is capable of playing 2B in case Pennington is injured.   But this, it seems to me, is a rather unlikely chain of events, requiring two separate occurrences at a time when neither of those occurrences has happened at all.  (Except for once when Pennington pinch-hit for Goins.)  It's just not a chain of events that worries me much at all.

Having said all that:  it's clear that Anthopoulos is shopping for a 4th outfielder, and if he finds one, I don't have any objection.  My argument is simply that the 8-man bullpen hasn't cost the Jays anything so far and is perfectly okay for another game or two, or even several games, if it takes a while to find a 4th outfielder who is capable of spelling Pillar off.

hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#308572) #
And actually talking about the game today, what's the deal with this Aaron Brooks guy the A's got in the Kazmir trade?

There's no way he's anywhere close to as good as his 1st 2 A's starts suggest, is he?
scottt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#308573) #
There's also the matter of getting Thole here to relieve Martin from catching Dickey.

92-93 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#308574) #

One other point: I think the Jays' willingness to have a short bench is the result of two things:

- Their AAA club is in Buffalo, not Las Vegas. They can have an emergency replacement available quickly if needed.

- They don't really need any reserve players to fill a role (except for Navarro as spare catcher). The starters are good enough defensively that late-inning defensive subs are no longer needed. Everybody but Goins is good enough to not need to be pinch-hit for, and even Goins has been doing better lately.

The extra pitchers serve one useful purpose: having people around to handle extra innings. If a game goes into the 13th or something, Schultz and Hendricks are available.

 

Late inning offensive subs are needed for a third of the lineup though, so having flexibility to do so would really help. It's hard to see that when the team carries a lead late in seemingly every game recently, but it's true. The proximity to Buffalo holds true on both sides of the ball; If the bullpen was burned in a game, you call up an 8th reliever for the next few days. Keeping an arm around in case you get to the 13th inning as opposed to having an extra bat around for all the 9 inning games you are going to play seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#308575) #
CF, if you pinch-hit for Goins (with Pennington or Colabello or Navarro), Pennington goes into the game as a defensive replacement and then you've got no subs left for 6 positions.  It's not remote at all.   With Goins and Revere at the bottom of the order, opponents are using left-handed relievers regularly for 3 batters and Goins may regularly be pinch-hit for in close games in the 6th or 7th innings. 
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#308576) #
p.s. i believe Carrera's 10gms are up today or tommorrow.
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#308578) #
So, Mike, you're unwilling to have Martin available as the back-up 2B (in case of emergency) even in the 8th or 9th inning?  Note:  he wouldn't be playing at 2B, he would simply be available as the emergency 2B in case of the unlikely scenario that Pennington is injured in the very late innings after the Jays have pinch-hit for Goins. 

In an effort to change the subject:  ZIPS is now forecasting that the 7th most likely World Series outcome is:  Jays beat the Cardinals.  (Most likely scenario is still Cardinals over Royals.) 

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#308579) #
I thought that it was 10 days, and it was up yesterday. 
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#308580) #
sent down on the 3rd, no?
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#308581) #
I thought it was Saturday August 1. 
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#308582) #
Mike, using your Goins PH, then injury scenario, it should be Kawasaki, not Carrera, who's called up.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#308583) #
"There's no way he's anywhere close to as good as his 1st 2 A's starts suggest, is he?"

FWIW, he started against the Blue Jays last year and lasted 0.2IP and gave up 7ER
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#308584) #
It would be better to have 2 middle infield backups than 8 relievers, but even better to have a 4th outfielder for in-game moves and occasional days off for the outfielders.

Encarnacion is out again, and might be back tomorrow or Friday (my money's on Friday).  Hutchison will be making the Sunday start.

China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#308585) #
Mike, how does Chris Heisey appeal to you?  Signed by the Jays today to a minor-league contract, assigned to Buffalo.  He's apparently a good defender with experience at all three of the OF positions.
cruzin - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#308586) #
"Hutchison will be making the Sunday start"

I'm surprised by this, but I guess the brain trust is concerned about his confidence if they were to skip him?
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#308587) #
The Blue Jays just signed Chris Heisey.  He's a 4th outfielder candidate, but it doesn't look like he has played anywhere for a couple of weeks. 
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#308588) #
Heisey has a career .717 OPS but he's been much worse than that in the past couple of seasons.  His splits are marginally better against RHP -- he has a .738 career OPS against them.  He has 96 career games in CF but only 19 in CF in the past two seasons.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#308589) #
I imagine that Gibbons would prefer to have an 8 man pen at least through the Yankee series.  Seeing as it is less than 3 weeks to the roster expansion, it would be ideal to get the 4th outfielder up now, but it seems that the plan is to give Heisey some time in Buffalo and then to call him up after the Yankees leave town.  Oh well, cross one's fingers...
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#308590) #
I'm nervous about Hutchison facing the Yankees on Sunday.  They're a much tougher-hitting team than Oakland.  And his whole history suggests that bad games often come after good games.  At least the game is at home, but I'm not convinced that his apparent better pitching at home is anything more than a statistical mirage, which wasn't true last season and wasn't true last week either.  Nor is he getting an extra day of rest before the Sunday game -- he does seem to do better on an extra day of rest.
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#308591) #
On BR's list of comparable players for Heisey, guess who's the fourth-most similar to him?  Someone named Travis Snider.
92-93 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#308592) #
The off days on Monday and Thursday factor heavily into the decision to start Hutchison on Sunday, I presume. It will be very easy for Gibby to yank him early for Johnny Wholestaff.

I like the idea of resting Encarnacion until the Yankees series. Every game is important but one against OAK is about as unimportant as they get right now, so it makes sense to take the offensive downgrade at DH for a couple of games to ensure you have your best lineup in the games that matter the most.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#308593) #
Hutchison has actually been quite a bit more effective against LHBs than RHBs this year.  It makes sense given his problems with the slider.  I am not particularly worried about him facing the Yankees, save for Rodriguez.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#308594) #
mike not sure which date is the one that counts but i believe carrera was dfa'd aug1 the cleared waivers and officially assigned to buffalo on aug3.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/fantasy/fantasy-baseball/update/25258506/blue-jays-of-ezequiel-carrera-clear-waivers-sent-to-triple-a

uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#308595) #
I have no issue with hutch facing the yanks but if they don't skip someone with all the offdays i think we get one less price start in the end.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#308596) #
Does Carrera actually have a 10-day waiting period? Best I can tell, that rule applies to optioned players, but Carrera was removed from the roster & outrighted to Buffalo.
robertdudek - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#308597) #
A few thoughts about roster composition. The idea that an 8-man bullpen could possibly be optimal is patently ridiculous. Even a 7 man pen is too much if most of your starters are going deep into the game. As long as you have at least 4 available relievers for each game, you will only rarely get into difficulty, usually because of a multi-extra inning game.

Compared to that, having multiple pinch hit and defensive sub possibilities on your bench is a tactical bonanza.

This type of pitcher overloaded roster is a sub-optimal cul-de-sac, akin to QWERTY. It has led to almost all relief pictures limited to one-inning stints for no good reason other than to boost the number of warmup pitches they have to throw during a season (and therefore more injuries).

As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof in those arguing for the 8-man bullpen, as it is something that flies in the face of baseball logic. The loss of a useful player like Valencia to keep an 8 man pen was a bad move, even if it has not actually costy the Jays a game YET.

I know that if at any point the Jays face Kershaw or Bumgarner, or need a pinch hitter for Goins against Andrew Miller, I would really like to have Valencia as an option.

I maintain that it was a stupid decision to lose Valencia instead of farming out Schultz or Loup for a few weeks.

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#308598) #
It looks like you are right, uglyone.  I thought that the 10 days ran from date of designation for assignment but apparently it runs from date of "outright" assignment. 
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#308599) #
"Every game is important but one against OAK is about as unimportant as they get right now, so it makes sense to take the offensive downgrade at DH for a couple of games"

Yeah, sucks Eddie's 225 August/126 season wRC+ is downgraded to Cola's 303 August/142 season.

Before a certain person starts posting their stats for the past 5 years, I know Eddie is the better hitter. But I will say there's probably 10 other AL teams that would be thrilled to have a player producing like Cola this year as their DH.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#308600) #
projections see heisey as a hair better offensively than carrera, but be with legit defensive value.
Kasi - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#308601) #
I agree with Mike and robert. There was no need for an 8 man pen since they got Price. But the need for it became even less with recent SP performance. And I think it is silly now with EE missing now 3 games leaving us basically no bench because they don't want to put him on the DL since he'll be back in a couple days. I do agree its probably right now to yank Pompey around if they don't want to give him full time at bats, but I'd much rather have Valencia around now than Loup or even Schultz.
Alex Obal - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#308603) #
if at any point the Jays face Kershaw or Bumgarner, or need a pinch hitter for Goins against Andrew Miller, I would really like to have Valencia as an option

It might happen next year.

Kevin Gausman pitched a hell of a game today, but through 8 innings he seems to have been upstaged by his Seattle counterpart.
Kasi - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#308604) #
Sorry meant to say it makes sense to not yank Pompey around. Just let him play fulltime. As for Gausman that's a decent start for sure, but 6 hits/2 walks/3 runs against the Ms is not what I'd call a hell of a start.
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#308605) #
I think his Seattle counterpart pitched slightly better.
Kasi - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#308606) #
If we were going to get a lower cost rental he was imo a good guy to target from the second tier of SPs out there.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#308607) #
Wife watching the Danny Valencia interview on Sportsnet.

He finished with the classic line "but I'm happy to be in uhhhh Oakland."
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#308608) #
Not bad for an offensive downgrade.
acepinball - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#308609) #
Also relevant to the Valencia discussion is his salary. I think it's pretty clear that, yes, he would make the team marginally better. But he has so few opportunities that it likely wouldn't justify carrying his $2M salary for two months.

I still wish they kept him, but would they have tendered him a contract that would pay him between 3 and 4 million? Doubtful. Chris Colabello's league minimum salary takes his spot on next year's club.
robertdudek - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#308610) #
How many position players have ever improved from their debut seasons as much as Donaldson has?
adrianveidt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#308611) #
I'm very impressed at the size of the crowd for a game against a non-divisional losing team. I hope Rogers takes note of it.
robertdudek - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#308612) #
Pennington makes double Valencia's salary this season. I know they got cash in the trade, but not likely enough to offset the increased cost of Pennington versus Valencia. Money was not an issue.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#308613) #
we're so good i just feel bad for the other team now.

looks like the umps feel bad for them too.
Lylemcr - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#308614) #
Poor rookie... it is like feeding him to the lions
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#308615) #
That Brooks kid lasted more than twice as long than he did last time.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#308616) #
#carcrashes
China fan - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#308617) #
We're not getting enough clear evidence to settle the Colabello-vs-Smoak debate tonight.
CeeBee - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#308618) #
The evidence is piling up.... or piling on tho.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#308619) #
Smoak is a better 1st baseman, Cola is a better DH.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#308620) #
if my calcs are correct cola has been worth about 0.6war this year in 89pa at 1B or DH.

which is worth about 4.5war over a full season.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#308621) #
Our 1B/DH situation is just getting ridiculous.

We dropped a corner guy who immediately became a cleanup hitter on Oakland (and man is he playing with a chip).

We are in the middle of the pennant race and telling the guy who has led the team in ops+ over the last 3 years (and is still productive) to take his tim healing up.

We have a guy who may legitimately be the next jose/edwin making the league minimum.

We have justin smoak who, personally at least, has had the ideal year for his situation (i.e. Shows me enough to think he can be our 1b of the future but not enough to get a big contract).

A few years ago we were desperately hoping that David cooper might develop into Lyle overbay lite.
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#308622) #
We're not getting enough clear evidence to settle the Colabello-vs-Smoak debate tonight.

I think the Jays have settled it. I doubt that in the normal course, you will see Colabello starting many, if any, games in the field.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#308623) #
Colabello is also currently tied with Buster Posey for 4th in mlb in batting average at .331, of any player with minimum 100pa, behind only Cabrera, Goldschmidt, and Harper. and his babip is only a hair higher than theirs.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#308624) #
cola has 271pa, btw.
scottt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#308625) #
This is a great team to get PAs. 4 or 5 a game, no problem.
scottt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#308626) #
Cleveland just tied it. Another 16 inning game would be great.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#308627) #
So don't bring back E.E. until he's 100%. Smoak's needed at First Base. Colabello's getting DH time and Navarro hopefully sits an extra game. I firmly believe Navarro would have been traded if Thole was healthy and not on the D.L. earlier.

If you can have a healthier Martin and Josh Thole or a battered Martin, Navarro and Thole as backup in AAA, I'd greatly prefer a healthier Martin. Smoak needs more ABs to get as effective as possible through October. Having Navarro takes ABs away from him is counter-productive.

Having a great Defense makes Pitching better. Having a great Bullpen makes Starters more confident and less likely to overthrow. Having good Starting pitching lets a great Offense flourish and doesn't force results. Just as long as no one takes anything for granted, the Jays will do well. I don't know where this is going, but I don't know if it will ever stop, and that's what is exciting about this Team.
scottt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#308628) #
Navarro could be traded and would likely pass waivers, but he's more useful than Thole once you reach the playoffs.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#308629) #
Just what the doctor ordered tonight- a blowout and an opportunity to give three under-used relievers an inning of work. 
scottt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#308630) #
I think the Yankees are still trying to recover from the Dickey effect. Only 2 hits so far tonight.
hypobole - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#308631) #
Yankees up to 4 hits now, but down 2-1 in the 7th.
scottt - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#308632) #
And Iwakuma No-hits Baltimore. Not a bad day.
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#308633) #
A Loup sighting!
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#308634) #
arod gidp in the 8th to end a rally.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#308635) #
I'm a bit disappointed they didn't bring in Navarro to catch once Dickey was out of the game.  Give Martin a few more innings of rest.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#308636) #
So that makes 10 in a row for the 2nd time this season.  I think we're all hoping for it to get to 14.
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#308637) #
Lefty - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#308638) #
Bluejays in first by a half game!
uglyone - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#308639) #
Gibby's career record over .500.

he's a winner!
obo - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#308640) #
Yankees lead the wild card!
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#308641) #
scottt

Once in the Postseason, unless he's hurt, Martin is catching every game he can. Who the backup catcher is meaningless.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#308642) #
nice.  Gibby getting over 500 the day the Jays move into first.
Since 1993 after games of August 12... (if 2nd or 3rd in East I mention wild card distance)
2015: 1st place 1/2 a game up
2014: 2nd 6 1/2 behind Baltimore, 2 out of wild card
2013: 5th place, 16 behind Boston
2012: 5th place, 13 behind NYY
2011: 4th place, 14 1/2 behind Boston
2010: 4th place, 11 behind NYY
2009: 4th place, 16 1/2 behind NYY
2008:4th place, 11 behind Tampa
2007: 3rd place, 10 1/2 behind Boston, 6 1/2 out of wild card
2006: 3rd place, 7 behind NYY, 5 out of wild card
2005: 3rd place, 7 1/2 behind Boston, 6 out of wild card
2004: 5th place, 25 1/2 behind NYY
2003: 3rd place, 13 behind NYY, 9 out of wild card
2002: 4th place, 20 1/2 behind NYY
2001: 3rd place, 14 behind NYY, 11 out of wild card
2000: 3rd place, 5 1/2 behind NYY, 4 out of wild card
1999: 2nd place, 7 behind NYY, 1/2 a game up in the wild card race(!)
1998: 4th place, 28 1/2 behind NYY - best record in baseball after this date for all the good it did
1997: 3rd place, 17 1/2 behind Baltimore, 12 out of wild card
1996: 4th place, 16 behind NYY
1995: 5th place, 17 behind Boston
1994: 3rd place, 16 behind NYY, 12 out of wild card
1993/1992 - won it all.

So just once since the WS years were the Jays in playoff position on this date (barely).

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#308643) #
Only one problem John, most of those Teams were ugly bad despite protestation from those year's GMs. 1992 and 1993 were MAGIC. This year's Team is almost there.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 12 2015 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#308644) #
Just thought it'd be interesting to see how much better this year is than all years since 1993.  2000 was the last time the Jays were within 6 of first,  just 5 times they were closer than 10 out of first place.  Ick.  Just once in playoff position since 1993 this late.  Boy those were terrible years with rebuild after rebuild but never really doing it right under Ash or JPR.  Seems AA might have finally got it right but we'll see over the next two months.
Michael - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:24 AM EDT (#308645) #
Remember those people criticizing the deadline deals as a mistake because the Jays were a 500 team? We weren't, and they weren't (even if I'm not sure I would have paid the price for Price).

Even if disaster happens from here, it was still right to view the team as a playoff caliber team looking for a few pieces to help put us over the top.
TangledUpInBlue - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:32 AM EDT (#308646) #
Re. ChinaFan's question on Valencia, I don't see the reason for confusion. Valencia (a) shouldn't hit vs. RHP; and (b) shouldn't have been DFA'ed. It's not like we have to choose between making him an everyday player and releasing him.

Re. 92-93's comment on other GMs, the reason they weren't phoning Anthopoulos about Valencia, if you're talking about after he was DFA'ed, is because there was no point. He wasn't on the type of waivers where you work out a trade or pull him back. He was on the other more confusing waivers (which might not be the official name) and whoever had highest priority could get him. And I think it's telling that the first team eligible to claim him claimed him.
TangledUpInBlue - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:50 AM EDT (#308647) #
Oh, and it wasn't the type of DFA where you have 10 days to work out a trade or something either. In this case, you just lose the player to whoever claims him.

Incidentally, I heard Mike Wilner try to explain this the other night. Something to the effect that Oakland claimed him and they tried to work out a trade but couldn't, so Oakland was able to just take him. Which makes absolutely no sense and tells me he doesn't really understand it either. The best explanation I've heard came here (I think from ChinaFan) that Anthopoulos had leverage to the extent that he could've engineered it so that Valencia went to a team in the NL instead. Have any reporters confirmed something like that?
scottt - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 06:47 AM EDT (#308648) #
All he needed was a team filled with all-stars, Cy Young winners and MVP candidates.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:27 AM EDT (#308649) #
Facing Sonny Gray this afternoon.

As well as we're playing, there will be days we lose baseball games.

I will be very impressed if today is not one of those days.
Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#308650) #
Yaneverknow. The Jays scored 2 runs off Gray the last time they faced him, and over the course of the current winning streak they've allowed just 2 runs per game.

Granted, Buehrle has allowed 3 earned runs in each of his last 3 starts. At least he's a rare lefty who has no trouble with Valencia - .250/.276/.357 over 28 AB.
Gerry - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#308651) #
That list of mid August standings is a shocking tale. Thanks for posting it John Northey. You can see how Blue Jay fans are starved of playoff race excitement.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#308652) #
TUIB, regarding your question on Valencia's waiver process, I believe he was placed on "trade assignment waivers" rather than "outright waivers" after he was DFA'd.  This means the Jays could have withdrawn him from Oakland's claim and put him on outright waivers instead, if they didn't want Oakland to have him.  Under the outright waivers, Valencia could have been claimed by the team with the worst record in the majors, not just in the AL, and so he probably would have gone to an NL team instead.  This suggests that the Jays didn't care very much if he went to an AL team or an NL team.  And it suggests that Oakland wasn't willing to give up much for him, since they could have offered a prospect for him if they were worried that the Jays would withdraw him from trade assignment waivers and put him on outright waivers instead.  Here's an article on the different type of waivers and waiver rules:  http://m.mgafrica.com/article/2015-08-12-china-the-continents-biggest-trade-partner-has-freed-its-currency-which-african-country-has-the-most-to-fear
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:06 AM EDT (#308653) #
And one more article on Valencia and the waiver process:  http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2015/8/1/9084409/why-was-danny-valencia-dfaed

I've posted this before, but TUIB specifically asked for the info, so I'm posting it again.  It was written after Valencia was designated for assignment, but before he had gone to Oakland.  Here's the key passage from the article:

"Since trade waivers are revocable, the Blue Jays have a little bit of leverage in asking the claiming team for a little more than that, as they could always pull him back and put him through outright waivers, whose priority order is simply based on winning percentage and is league-agnostic."

China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#308654) #
Whoops, posted the wrong link for the previous post on waiver rules!  Here's the correct link: http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3525
TangledUpInBlue - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#308655) #
Thanks, ChinaFan. And given all that, your speculation that there was a favour involved (between Beane and Anthopoulos) is the only one that makes any sense, but I'd still like to see something from one of the beat reporters that attempts to explain that specific issue -- i.e., if they didn't have to let him go to Oakland, why did they?
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:42 AM EDT (#308657) #
Sonny Gray sidelined with an injury.  So instead the Jays will face their old friend Jesse Chavez today.  That's good news.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#308658) #
Chavez has had a good season, but not recently.  Over his past four starts he has allowed 14 earned runs and 10 walks in 18.2 innings, and hitters have an OPS of 1.000 against him.
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#308659) #
sweet Jesus are we still talking qbout Valencia?

August 5, 2012: Traded by the Minnesota Twins to the Boston Red Sox for Jeremias Pineda (minors).
November 28, 2012: Purchased by the Baltimore Orioles from the Boston Red Sox.
December 18, 2013: Traded by the Baltimore Orioles to the Kansas City Royals for David Lough.
July 28, 2014: Traded by the Kansas City Royals to the Toronto Blue Jays for Liam Hendriks and Erik Kratz.
August 3, 2015: Selected off waivers by the Oakland Athletics from the Toronto Blue Jays.

he has no value.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#308660) #
From what I'm gathering, once DV was waived, he was lost. Yeah, he could have been lost to Philly/Miami instead of Oakland.

Beane didn't want to give up anything tangible, but pulling DV back and using the outright waivers would have netted the Jays nothing more than the nothing Beane was offering and basically would have been sheer spite in a business built on relationships.

I do remember a comment that at least one other team was upset Beane didn't make Donaldson's availability public knowledge before the trade. This suggests Beane and AA had a good working relationship at the time. I'm not saying DV was any sort of extra payment for Josh, but rather fostering good will among your peers makes future dealings much easier.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#308661) #
Haven't heard why Sonny Gray was scratched. Was it the Toronto Blue Jay flu?
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#308662) #
I do remember a comment that at least one other team was upset Beane didn't make Donaldson's availability public knowledge before the trade. This suggests Beane and AA had a good working relationship at the time. I'm not saying DV was any sort of extra payment for Josh, but rather fostering good will among your peers makes future dealings much easier.

I imagine that a few eyebrows might be raised in New York about Sonny Gray missing his start.  The conspiracy theorists among the Yankee fan base can have a field day; it might be a good idea to wear a flap jacket when doing the roll call on the next trip to the Big Apple.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#308663) #
Sonny Gray has back spasms, apparently.

I'd have spasms too if I had to face that lineup.

hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#308665) #
"it might be a good idea to wear a flap jacket"

Is that anything like a flak jacket?
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#308666) #
Chris Heisey has arrived and he is starting in LF for Buffalo today.  He might be promoted to the Jays soon.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#308667) #
Don't know if this was posted, but last night there were close to 45,000 at the RC for a midweek game vs the A's.

If you build it...
85bluejay - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#308668) #
I know that after fan backlash about the disastrous Pablo Sandoval season & fans wanting to know why the team with a stacked farm system didn't outbid the Jays for Donaldson , the Red Sox FO let it slip to the media that they had contacted the A's about Donaldson but were told he was unavailable - but that may be just spin.

How times have changed - a week ago I would have been rooting for the Royals to sweep the Angels to boost the Jays wild card chances, now I rooting for the Angels to sweep because I'm thinking that the Jays may have a shot at the #1 seed in the AL & the extra game at home.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#308669) #
Uglyone, I tend to agree with you about Valencia, but I wouldn't go quite so far as to say "no value."  And I don't think "trade history" is a good metric for measuring a player's value.  You might want to look up Jose Bautista's trade history, for example.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#308671) #
Is that anything like a flak jacket?

Ack.  My morning coffee was later than usual.  My brain should be fully engaged by approximately 12:37 this afternoon.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#308672) #
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#308673) #
So we traded Danny V in exhange for the As not starting Gray against us.

great deal.
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#308675) #
the jose bautista comp, really?
85bluejay - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#308676) #
The Royals also dumped Valencia last year in their run - I wonder if Valencia's reputation as a Selfish, me-first player was a contributing factor along with the fact that he will be Arbitration eligible next year.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#308677) #
Well played CF.
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#308678) #
"every fringe player has value - because jose bautista happened."

Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#308679) #
"I wonder if Valencia's reputation as a Selfish, me-first player"

Say what?
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#308680) #
I would say CF's point was simply listing a players transactions is a rather facile way of judging their worth.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#308681) #
"....every fringe player has value - because jose bautista happened...."

Of course that's not what I said.  But perhaps I could paraphrase your point:  "Valencia has no value -- because he was acquired cheaply in the past."

Or perhaps we could cite this fellow's recent trade history:


uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#308682) #
are you arguing that Valencia's performance as a jay is different than his previous performance? that he has improved in some significant way?
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#308684) #
"....Are you arguing that Valencia's performance as a jay is different than his previous performance? that he has improved in some significant way?....."

I'm not sure to whom you are addressing this question.  But if you're addressing me, please remember that I already said that I tend to agree with you that he doesn't have a lot of value.  I just disagreed with the "zero value" absolutist statement.  Also, like many people here, I've noted that Valencia is doing far better against RHP this year.  I've also acknowledged that it's a relatively small sample size, compared to his career numbers, and I've noted that most people here aren't convinced that he has significantly improved.  And I've also noted that players do sometimes improve, even relatively late in their careers, and I've said that we don't know whether Valencia's apparent improvement this year against RHP is a mirage or not.  That's all.

Oceanbound - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#308685) #
He might have heard someone say that Valencia liked shellfish, and it sort of escalated from there.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#308686) #
I don't know if this qualifies as selfish/me-first, but he's apparently voiced his displeasure about lack of playing time in the past.

http://www.royalsauthority.com/royals-ship-valencia-to-jays/
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#308687) #
it might be a good idea to wear a flak jacket when doing the roll call on the next trip to the Big Apple.

Knowing Yankee Stadium fans, the thing they're most likely to hurl are witticisms. i read that last weekend, travelling Blue Jays fans on Sunday were chanting 'Tu-lo-wit-ski'. To which the Yankee fans in the section behind began chanting 'Jus-tin Bie-ber'.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#308688) #
Well said, CF.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#308689) #
Knowing Yankee Stadium fans, the thing they're most likely to hurl are witticisms. i read that last weekend, travelling Blue Jays fans on Sunday were chanting 'Tu-lo-wit-ski'. To which the Yankee fans in the section behind began chanting 'Jus-tin Bie-ber'.

The Yankees do win the famous shortstop-intolerable pop star connection game.  I'll grant you that "Der-ek Je-ter" "Mar-iah Ca-rey" doesn't quite work.
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#308690) #
relatively small sample?

valencia has a career 98wrc+. he posted a 102wrc+ with the jays.

he narrowed his split to 87/125 from a career 74/139.

this isn't the first hot streak he's had.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#308691) #
If we were as fixated on ex-girlfriends as much as we are on ex-Jays, we'd be awash in restraining orders.
jerjapan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#308692) #
speaking of curious FO decisions, has anyone been able to figure out why Billy Beane signed Billy Butler?  Sure he's having a dreadful year to make the contract even worse, but I don't recall anyone defending it at the time either. 

Normally I trust Beane as much as anyone - so why Butler?  Fan of alliteration? 

China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#308693) #
"....valencia has a career 98wrc+. he posted a 102wrc+ with the jays...."

As you know, we are discussing his improvement vs RHP this year, so it's rather irrelevant to cloud the picture by including his 160 plate appearances vs RHP from last year.   In any event, we're doing a lot of arguing about a very minor point, so I'm dropping the matter now.
Chuck - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#308694) #
Fan of alliteration?

Don't forget Billy Burns.

uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#308695) #
"it's rather irrelevant to cloud the picture by including his 160 plate appearances vs RHP from last year. "

come again?

pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#308696) #
Jays have 4th best ERA in AL now after 7+ innings. 3.09
John Northey - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#308697) #
Butler was an odd one at the time for Oakland.  Sometimes top GM's make mistakes is all I can write that one off to.I suspect he thought 'sign for ages 29-31 to catch the end of his prime years then lose to free agency and get a draft pick'.  $30 mil for a DH/1B over 3 years seemed a lot but I think Beane expected him to go back to the 120-130 OPS+ range instead of dropping further.  No matter how i cut it thought it was an overpay.


Still he does some stuff right... top 9 for IP for Oakland all have an ERA+ over 100, #10 is at 98, #11 at 130.  So bad pitchers have 32 2/3 or fewer innings each.  Graveman's 100 is the worse for guys used a lot but woudl be a lot better if you remove his 2 vs Blue Jay games (10 IP 8 ER).  I suspect many pitchers would be having a better year if they got to skip the Jays :)

China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#308699) #
"...come again?...."

When discussing how and why a player has improved his numbers from 2014 to 2015, it's obviously irrelevant to revert back to his 2014 numbers.  We're discussing the improvement from last year, and you keep citing his numbers of last year.  Which misses the point.
Lylemcr - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#308700) #
Is it to early to put the cross hairs on KC?
Jevant - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#308701) #
2009-present: Awesomeness, never to be dealt again.
Jevant - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#308702) #
I actually laughed out loud.  *internet high-five
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#308704) #
The Yankees do win the famous shortstop-intolerable pop star connection game

They know the buttons to push. '19-18' of course was the best. Maybe the best ever spontaneous chant by a sports crowd. But 'Jus-tin Bie-ber' you have to tip your cap, too.
Jevant - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#308705) #
I know it's too early, blah blah blah, but I'm really, really, REALLY hoping we get to blast the snot out of those babies from KC in the ALCS.

It's weird, but shutting those guys up/down/etc is probably more exciting to me than doing the same to the Yanks or Sox.  Can't believe I'm actually saying that about the Royals.  Amazing what a little Volquez/Madson/Yost absurdity will begat.

uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#308706) #
"When discussing how and why a player has improved his numbers from 2014 to 2015, it's obviously irrelevant to revert back to his 2014 numbers. We're discussing the improvement from last year, and you keep citing his numbers of last year. Which misses the point."

no, we were discussing the value of danny valencia.

I take it you are arguing that the most recent 100pa of his 1100pa career against RHP has significantly changed his value?
Jevant - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#308707) #
Isn't it awesome to be so comfortable with the current team and the decisions being made and the games that are being played that we are left to discuss Danny Valencia's DFA, Aaron Loup's lack of innings, and whether or not we should call up Dalton Pompey or Ezequiel Carrera to be the 4th OF?

It's a stupidly awesome time to be a Jays fan.  I can't remember the last time I literally wake up every day and think "I can't wait for the Jays game today".  Monday and Thursday next week are going to be annoying.

pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#308708) #
CF, I think past results are good to include in the discussion to guard against small sample size issues.

Even with Jose Bautista there was some concern that his big season could have been a one-off. I think that's why AA was able to get him for a better team friendly contract than if he had 5 straight 50+ HR seasons.
pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#308709) #
Just curious but who doesn't like AA's trade deadline moves again?
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#308710) #
Just curious but who doesn't like AA's trade deadline moves again?

The Yankees
JB21 - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#308711) #
Go to the trade threads, there was a lot of complaining going on by a couple of posters. Magpie's post about the Jays' record after 100 games over the last decade put me over the edge into why the F not mode (for Price, the Tulo trade was JD type steal IMO).
pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#308712) #
JB21 - Yeah I remember that post.

Over the years a lot of ppl have complained about how inconsistent the Jays have been. But Magpie's "100 game" post showed that the Jays have been very consistent.

However, I'm enjoying this inconsistency.
JohnL - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#308713) #
Just heard Stephen Brooks(?), Jays Business VP on radio pre-game show say they've sold 440,000 tickets since trades started.
robertdudek - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#308714) #
The only reason we are discussing Valencia is that, for some unfathomable reason, some people think it was a good roster move. Of course they offer no cogent reasons for their view.
#2JBrumfield - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#308715) #
The Toronto Star has a good article on LaTroy Hawkins and Roberto Osuna and another one on Paul Beeston.
pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#308716) #
I thought everybody hated losing Valencia.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#308717) #
Only a good move in comparison to the even more idiotic moves the Jays have made, as you are so fond of pointing out.
pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#308718) #
So dropping Valencia was a good move compared to the other idiotic moves they've made?

What are the idiotic moves? Are we talking this season or the last few years?
James W - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#308719) #
But 'Jus-tin Bie-ber' you have to tip your cap, too.

So they're stealing chants from wrestling fans. *sarcastic golf clap for Yankees fans*
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#308720) #
its not even a move worth calling good or bad.
rtcaino - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#308721) #
"In any event, we're doing a lot of arguing about a very minor point, so I'm dropping the matter now."

Are you feeling alright, CF?
Lefty - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#308722) #
That was the second time Edwin Encarnacion arrived on the Blue Jays roster for nada.
Parker - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#308723) #
its not even a move worth calling good or bad.

I respectfully disagree - at the very least, it's a head-scratcher. When multiple low-leverage relievers have options and your bench consists of two players who can't field a position, the only explanation that makes sense to me is simply that Anthopoulos gave Gibbons the team he wanted. The head-scratching part is why Gibbons loves Loup enough to want to keep him over Valencia, but not enough to actually use him in a game.

I think it was a mistake to dump Valencia amidst the season he's having, but honestly I don't see how the team really hurts from this move unless Donaldson gets injured (or Revere does, and Gibbons insists on using Colabello in LF again as a result.)
JB21 - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#308724) #
Wow. This is getting ridiculous.
MatO - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#308725) #
What do flapjacks have to do with baseball?
Dave Till - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#308726) #
By the way, the Jays are still eight games behind their Pythagorean projection. Going by their run differential, they should be 71-44.

I looked up Baseball Reference to see if other successful Jays teams had gone on runs like this:

- The 1985 Jays went 16-3 in late July and early August to open up a 9 game lead. The Yankees surged to push to within 1 1/2 in September, but never overtook them.

- The 1989 Jays started the season 12-24, and then immediately went 24-12, serving as a nice bookend. They are the closest comp to this year's team: they were 58-58 on August 12, then went 20-5. They gained only three games in this stretch, going from 1 1/2 down to 1 1/2 up.

- The 1992 Jays started the season 15-4, and sort of chugged along until late in the year. They finished the season 23-9, which is very good, but didn't have an extended winning streak.

- The 1993 Jays were in a close race all year, but then carpet-bombed the opposition with a 17-4 finish.

None of these teams had a 13-1 stretch.

Enjoy this while it lasts - it's fun.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#308727) #
Apparently Kevin Pillar isn't the only one losing balls in the sun today, Brian O'Nora might need some flip-down shades as well.
Lylemcr - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#308728) #
If winning the world series depends on Valencia, the Jays are truly in trouble.

I like Cola more (not so sure about Smoak).
pubster - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#308729) #
Just to play devil's advocate, would we be in trouble if winning the world series means relying on Bautista - a former scrub.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#308730) #
"...By the way, the Jays are still eight games behind their Pythagorean projection. Going by their run differential, they should be 71-44....."

An interesting question is whether the Jays are winning now mostly because of their trade-deadline acquisitions, or whether they are winning now mostly because of a regression to where they should always have been this season.  Of course the acquisitions have helped a lot, but it could be argued that most of their success this month is a result of players who were always here.  Maybe their luck was due to even out.  Aside from Price's two games and a few innings from Lowe and Hawkins, the improvement in the rotation and bullpen is largely due to players who were always on the roster.  It was partly a matter of getting those players in the right places (Sanchez in the bullpen for example, and Osuna as the closer, and Estrada in the rotation) rather than simply getting new players.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#308731) #
Buehrle is amazing.  He looked in serious trouble in the first inning, and then he needed only 75 pitches to go through 6 shutout innings.

On another note: Pennington's defence looks excellent.  His first-inning bare-handed play was incredible.  Seems like a useful acquisition.

Lefty - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#308732) #
As I recall after the trade deadlines the mantra in 92 - 93 was to win every series. They did not put pressure on themselves to reel off lengthy winning streaks, but go into every series with the aim to win 2 of 3 or 3 of 4. Everyone was part of the beat that paced those teams, supporters and players.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#308733) #
Filed under things I never thought I would say, with his homerun today Goins currently has a greater ISO (and more homeruns) than Xander Bogaerts. Tip of the cap to Jeff Sullivan for pointing that out.
Lefty - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#308734) #
Buehrle has become quite predictable in this regard this season. tough first innings then shut the door.
CeeBee - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#308736) #
I feel a lot more comfortable with Smoak at first base than any of the other options for the Jays. Pennington looks good at 2nd as well. Love good defense.
Lylemcr - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#308738) #
"Just to play devil's advocate, would we be in trouble if winning the world series means relying on Bautista - a former scrub."

That argument can be applied to Smoak, Cola, etc etc. He has been here a year and was ... alright. That doesn't quite make the roster. Sorry.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#308739) #
That was a less than ideal decision by Pillar in a 4-run game. Not exactly a banner day for the team's CF.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#308740) #
Really surprised that Gibbons decided to let Buehrle pitch in the 8th inning.  It was Gibbons who said Buehrle has been "beat up" lately, and he flipped the rotation to give him an extra rest day.  With a rested bullpen ready to go, why let Buehrle pitch in the 8th?
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#308741) #
Wondering the same thing. The beat up comment struck me as well. Gibby, you have an 8 man pen.
JB21 - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#308742) #
Except Bautista wasn't ever a "scrub". Only his 2008 year was truly bad before he reached superstar levels in 2010.

wRC+ by year (Min 90 ABs)
2006 (AAA) 123
2006 (MLB) 96
2007 97
2008 86 (destroyed AAA, only 23 ABs, but 191)
2009 102
2010 165
2011 181
2012 137
2013 134
2014 159
2015 141
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#308743) #
.@BlueJays starters have allowed 3ER or less in 16 straight, longest streak since a club record 18 consecutive outings from 5/5-25/91

#BlueJays become the first team since the 1954 Indians to post two winning streaks of at least 11 games in the same season.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#308744) #
So the Jays will be in first place for another day at least.  Sanchez threw only 12 pitches today, he should be available again tomorrow if needed.  Might be worth resting Osuna tomorrow, since a bunch of other relievers are available and Osuna has had a fairly heavy workload this season.  But with Price pitching, they shouldn't need too many of them.
Ryan Day - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#308745) #
I assume that in a game with a relatively decent lead, Gibbons asked Buehrle if he wanted to keep pitching, and Buehrle said "sure."
Chuck - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#308746) #
Buehrle on a travel day. Guess I should have known to have checked in on the game much sooner than this. How long has it been over? A couple of hours?
eudaimon - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#308747) #
I suspect Gibbons defers to Buehrle in regards to starting the 8th. I doubt Buehrle wanted to come out, and Gibbons trusted his judgment (and history).

As for Valencia, I still can't see a situation where he would have played since the acquisition of Revere. Shouldn't that be one of the most important variables? Maybe he could have stayed over one of the relievers, but it's a minor quibble.

China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#308749) #
"...Buehrle on a travel day..."

The Jays are not traveling today.... or tomorrow for that matter....   Unless you mean that Oakland is traveling today?
85bluejay - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#308750) #
Surprised that Buehrle came out for the 8th.

I know that Pillar has justifiably received kudos for his defensive play - I hope he becomes a smarter player - with a 4 run lead late in the game, he really should have been more conservative with the Burns single and not gone for the spectacular play and we've seen him run into some unnecessary outs on the basepaths.
Chuck - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#308751) #
Oakland is travelling. Umpires are travelling.
Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#308752) #
I thought it was interesting how two of Gibbons' questionable decisions compounded into a good thing. I would not have sent Buehrle back out for the 8th, and I would not have had Sanchez warming in the 7th. Rather, I would have had Mark Lowe start the 8th clean.

But out came Buehrle, and 2 hits later... it absolutely was Sanchez time. I guess this is the sort of thing happens in an 11-game winning streak.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#308753) #
Gibbons loves Sanchez.  Loved him last year too. And uses him as much as possible.  And I must say, it brings a feeling of confidence when I see Sanchez trotting out to the mound.  Next to Osuna, he seems like a grizzled veteran.  He's been through a lot in the past two seasons, and he seems unflappable out there.  Osuna seems unflappable too, but Sanchez has really been dominant in the bullpen role since his arrival last year.
Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#308754) #
"I know that Pillar has justifiably received kudos for his defensive play - I hope he becomes a smarter player - with a 4 run lead late in the game, he really should have been more conservative with the Burns single and not gone for the spectacular play and we've seen him run into some unnecessary outs on the basepaths."

The futile dive in the 8th was his second misplay of the game. He lost a fly ball in the sun in the first inning - probably not his fault - but having lost it he should have pulled off to let Revere have a shot at it.

But I'm told he's not fatigued. And that no outfielder this side of Mike Trout could hold a candle to Pillar as a replacement in centre for a game or two. And that the 11-game winning streak is a result of the 8-man pen, so there's no way to get another outfielder on to the roster anyhow.
Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#308755) #
No questions at all about the greatness of Sanchez as a reliever. But using him in 4-run ballgames is a recipe to blow out his arm. He's now pitched 8 times in the last 14 days and is not at all fresh heading into a critical series against the Yankees.

One wonders why AA bothered to go out and get Hawkins and Lowe if Gibbons won't trust them with a 4-run lead.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#308756) #
"....using him in 4-run ballgames is a recipe to blow out his arm...."

It was actually a 3-run game with a runner in scoring position and the tying run on deck.  Those are exactly the kinds of situations that plagued the Jays for the first half of the season, and left them struggling as a .500 team until the trade deadline.  Can't blame Gibbons for wanting to lock it down with his best reliever in the highest-leverage situation.

Sanchez has been a starter for most of his career.  He threw 133 innings last year, and has only pitched 85 innings this year.  He had 3 days of rest last week.  I'm not at all worried about his usage as a reliever. 

As for a 4th outfielder: the Jays have just acquired a good one, who played in Buffalo today, and they probably want to have a good look at him before deciding whether to promote him.  They also have Carrera, who was off for a few days (during the DFA) and is getting back into action in Buffalo now. Either are available if the Jays become convinced that Pillar is exhausted.  Is he exhausted?  I don't think any of us know, but we probably have to assume that the Jays are watching him closely, and they see him a lot more than we do.  I'd trust them to know whether he needs a few days off or not.  But I realize that some fans need something to complain about, and I guess Pillar is the complaint du jour.

bpoz - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#308757) #
I apologize if this has already been asked and answered. But the recent surge in Jays interest and the volume on da Box has been too much for me to keep up with.
Some issues are beyond my baseball IQ. Like the complexity of the D Valencia loss. But it is an interesting topic.

So basically since the big acquisitions we have won a lot of games because of better pitching and defense. Simply put D Price has improved our pitching and our LF is now better defensively. It is not necessary to do the calculation, even though when we win the other team gets to bat for 9 innings.

What I want to know, is our offense better or worse? The talented numbers guys on da Box can do do this well and easily I believe. I cannot. So a stronger offense is weaker in a 7-1 win and stronger in a 9-11 loss. In other words we swept the NYY with a weak offense.
If anyone does perform this task, first off thank you.
The calculations should be done using total innings. The 7-1 win was done in 8 innings of ABs in a home game. An 8-10 loss was done in 9 innings of ABs. Also all runs scored by the Jays are offensive. HRs or small ball are equally offensive. Unearned runs are just as offensive.

Thanks again.


jjdynomite - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#308758) #
It was a 3-run lead, Jonny, thus a hold scenario -- Buerhle already let in the first run on the Burns triple. Sanchez was right to be warmed up and ready to go.

I'm finding it somewhat amusing reading all the niggling on here when the Jays have won 11 games in a row, including sweeping the Yankees, and *on the bench today* were three of the Jays' top 5 position players: Tulo, Martin and Encarnacion (yes, minor injury). Hopefully now that the Jays are done playing the A's for the season there will be no more Odes to Valencia.

Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#308759) #
I should have said above that when Sanchez did come in to the game "it absolutely was Sanchez time".

Oh wait. I did. Guess I assumed a higher level of reading comprehension than I ought to have.

When I say "Sanchez in a 4-run game" I'm referring to the fact that he was already warming in the 7th inning, when it was a clean 4-run game. It became a tight game following Gibbons' questionable decision to send Buehrle back out for the 8th.
China fan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#308760) #
Hawkins was already warming up in the bullpen in the 7th inning, before Sanchez warmed up.   I guess that must be a recipe for blowing out Hawkins' arm too, since he's pitched 6 times in the past 16 days.
jjdynomite - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#308761) #
Jonny wrote: "No questions at all about the greatness of Sanchez as a reliever. But using him in 4-run ballgames is a recipe to blow out his arm."

Is hard tossing in the bullpen a recipe for anything? Buehrle only threw 92 pitches through 7, and it was reasonable for Gibbons to give this definition of a veteran (who knows his limits) the opportunity to come out in the 8th, yet hedge by warming up a quality reliever in a non-blowout.

If the Jays ended up losing based on a rare late-inning Buehrle meltdown or Sanchez arm implosion, your assumptions would be justified. But the streak is intact.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#308762) #
I am not sure why anyone is surprised that Buerhle was out for the 8th inning. He was rolling at that point, having only used 29 pitches to get through innings 5-7 and entered the inning having thrown 87 in total. With a four run lead and the way he was pitching, there was a distinct possibility that he might pitch a Maddux. It just didn't turn out that way. Its not like he was at 120 pitches and had struggled all game.
Jonny German - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#308764) #
Oh man do I have to explain how 8 is bigger than 6? And then move on to how 14 is smaller than 16?
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#308765) #
Just a thought. How many in a row would the Jays have to win before there's a game where none of Gibby's moves are questioned?

(And yeah, I do realize I was one of the questioners)
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#308766) #
Just a thought. How many in a row would the Jays have to win before there's a game where none of Gibby's moves are questioned?

Approximately ∞

scottt - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#308767) #
An interesting question is whether the Jays are winning now mostly because of their trade-deadline acquisitions, or whether they are winning now mostly because of a regression to where they should always have been this season.

Acquisitions. It's almost impossible to mismanage this team now. At worse a useless sac bunt or replacing a hot pitcher with an array of very good relievers.
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#308768) #
I am not sure why anyone is surprised that Buerhle was out for the 8th inning. He was rolling at that point, having only used 29 pitches to get through innings 5-7 and entered the inning having thrown 87 in total

I'm of the same view. In fact, I would have been critical in those circumstances of the rote change of pitcher for the 8th. I think Gibbons played it properly in leaving Buehrle in when he did.

I also don't think Pillar necessarily played it wrong on the triple. The ball was hit to a difficult spot. It didn't look like a play that he could have made easily by letting it bounce.
scottt - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#308769) #
Except Bautista wasn't ever a "scrub". Only his 2008 year was truly bad before he reached superstar levels in 2010.

Bautista wasn't a starter. He was a utility player. When he was traded he became the Homerun leader for Toronto and that gave a good laugh to a lot of people back then.
uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#308770) #
a friendly reminder that buehrle wasn't just on one extra day of rest, but two.
jerjapan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#308771) #
The only reason we are discussing Valencia is that, for some unfathomable reason, some people think it was a good roster move. Of course they offer no cogent reasons for their view.

An eleven game winning streak got you in a bad mood Robert?  I don't like the DFA myself, but there have been plenty of cogent reasons offered, by multiple posters.  Often, cogent reasons more nuanced than the point you are presenting here. 
scottt - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#308772) #
Just a thought. How many in a row would the Jays have to win before there's a game where none of Gibby's moves are questioned?

Questionable manager moves don't preclude a team from winning. Coach is basically the only weak position on the Jays roster.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#308773) #
Two friendly reminders

1) he was given the extra time off because he was "beat up".

2) if Gibby is going to manage like he has a short pen, what is the purpose of it being 8 men?

John Northey - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#308774) #
Heh.  Cito Gaston was questioned non-stop when the Jays were winning the division 4 out of 5 years plus 2 WS wins.  So the answer is 'never' to when will a manager stop being questioned.  Even all-time greats like Sparky Anderson, and Bobby Cox were questioned regularly.
Kasi - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#308775) #
It doesn't look like EE is getting healthy as quick as possible. And Loup has barely been used. So yes losing Valencia was a mistake and should be at least addressed by bringing Carrera back up. Would be nice to have another guy who could back up Donaldson and the better bad in V, but we at least need another OF up here.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#308776) #
"Coach is basically the only weak position on the Jays roster."

Gibbons really can't win. If he pulls his starter too early for some, he is accused of following a slavish addiction for unnecessary pitching changes. Accusers conveniently ignore that Jays have the 4th fewest relief appearances in MLB and the 7th most innings pitched per relief appearance.

If Gibbons allows his starting pitcher to pitch deeper into games than some think is warranted, he is accused of sleeping at the wheel, curiously reluctant to use a pen that many insist he is solely responsible for architecting.

The odd time where the majority agree he pulls his starter at the appropriate time and the bullpen then struggles, his accusers rail against his incompetent bullpen management and failure to put pitchers in a position to succeed; the Jays MLB 7th best relief ERA and 3rd best relief xFIP notwithstanding.

I won't even touch the constant lineup criticisms for a team that is leading MLB in runs/game by a country mile.

uglyone - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#308778) #
preach it, hodgie.
85bluejay - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#308780) #
Compared to the criticism that Cito Gaston received (that's a guy who won 4 division titles and 2 World Series),John Gibbons is getting the kid glove treatment.
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#308782) #
Managers would receive less criticism if they joined the 21st century and started crowdsourcing all their moves.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#308784) #
Some people have suggested that Pillar's unsuccesful dive on Burns' fliner in the 8th was a bad idea because of the score.  I don't agree.  There are three possible outcomes if he tries- he makes the play, he dives and smothers (probably runners on first and second or first and third), or the ball gets past him for a triple.  Had the score been 2-0, the value of Burns' run would be so high that he would have to a very good chance to catch or smother to make it worthwhile.  Not so, at 4-0.  Burns' run is worth something, but the possibility of making the out is also worth something. 

You don't play "no-doubles" defence in a 4-0 game with a runner on first.  The same logic would apply to Pillar's dive.  In the particular case, it appeared that Pillar had little chance to catch the ball but given that he has been making very difficult catches all season long, I would be loathe to suggest that it was a bad move.  Rather, it was one that just didn't work out. 

Lylemcr - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#308785) #
Maybe we should put a vote up.

Who would you dfa?
- Valencia
- cola
- Smoak
- trade Edwin
JB21 - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#308786) #
You should probably add "Option RP" on there, and I'm assuming it would win. I would've rather kept him and optioned the RP, but I'd rather have Carerra or Pompey up instead of Valencia.

Anyways... can we move on like we moved on from the 2016 Starting Pitching discussion?
Dewey - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#308788) #
"Coach is basically the only weak position on the Jays roster."

Saying “coach” when you mean “manager” is [insert expletive]. There are coaches in hockey, and in football, and in lots of other places; but the guy in baseball dugouts who calls the shots is called a manager. On this site, of all sites, can we not get this right?
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#308789) #
Re: Edwin, he's 10 and 5 now, as has been pointed out on a number of occasions. Why would he have accepted a trade?
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#308790) #
Are coaches and managers on the roster? Or on they on the staff? Although the pitching staff is on the roster. Which begs the question, why is there no hitting staff?

So confusing.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#308791) #
In olden days, a bat was known as a hitting staff.  Wayne and Schuster could have done a prequel to Shakespearean baseball- Moses-ball in the desert.  They were there for 40 years wandering, and I am sure that there were times when conditions were ripe for a game. 
hypobole - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#308793) #
Mike, in those olden days were RBI's called RSI's, "Runs Staffed In"?
Mike Green - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#308797) #
I don't know, hypobole, but I do know that Moses' brother Aaron was pretty good at it.
robertdudek - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#308801) #
Jerjapan,

No cogent reasons whatsoever have been offered. Earlier in this thread I posted an argument against the 8man bullpen. Not only was there no substantive response to it, there was no response at all. For an eighth reliever to have been carried over Valencia, there would have to be some sort of good reason for doing so. I haven't heard anything that stands the light of day. Only some hand waving about aa knowing best or giving Gibbons the team he wants. What I mean by that is some sort of rational argument which doesn't rely on ad hominems.

Now if Carrera had been kept over Valencia and a relief pitcher optioned, then we could have a meritorious discussion about who of the two should have been kept.

Lastly, it is not good policy to get rid of a player who has been performing so well. The burden of proof should be on those arguing for such a bizarre move.
jerjapan - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#308804) #
Robert Dudek, let's try 'no cogent reasons that I've bothered to read'. 

Because plenty of people have opined cogently on this topic. In this very thread: 

Hypobole:how many PA's would he have had with the Jays?  Optimally, AA could have gotten something of value for Danny V, but would it have been anything more than a C prospect?

Chinafan:  when they are winning virtually every game this month, they won't need a lot of bench hitters either.  So the issue is academic.  The loss of Valencia has had zero impact on "results" where it matters.

Uglyone: i imagine valencia would have had about as much playing time as loup over this stretch. as for value, valencia has been moved nearly every year of his career, and has yet to get traded for any value.

John Northey:   Valencia's only role would be to hit for Goins late in the game if the Jays are trailing.  A very rare thing lately.

92-93: this hand-wringing over Valencia's departure reminds me of when all the brilliant minds were convinced AA lost value when he traded Lind, as if they knew more than the 30 MLB GMs who clearly didn't value Lind very much despite his proficiency vs RHP. Is it not reasonable to assume that AA gauged the interest in Valencia, saw it was rather minimal, and decided to cut bait? If he had value, wouldn't the phone have been ringing off the hook when other teams heard he was DFA?

Dave Till: I can see why the Jays got rid of him: the only thing he does really well is hit left-handed pitching, and the Jays have approximately 38 people who can already do that. Valencia isn't particularly fast, doesn't hit for a lot of power, and isn't more than an emergency defender at any position other than third base, which is kind of occupied at the moment.

85 bluejay: The Royals also dumped Valencia last year in their run - I wonder if Valencia's reputation as a Selfish, me-first player was a contributing factor along with the fact that he will be Arbitration eligible next year.

This variety of voices in favour of - or indifferent to - the DFA in this very thread kind of disproves the idea that alternative viewpoints aren't cogent. 

Try getting these guys to agree on anything :)

robertdudek - Thursday, August 13 2015 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#308811) #
Sorry but none of these are worth anything.

Hyperbole... 5 or 6 at bats, but perhaps several crucial ones in the playoffs against tough lefties. C prospects are something.

Chinafan... So let's see, giving Donaldson a few innings off in a 10-3 game can't possibly be a good thing. Also, what makes you think the jays can go the rest of the season on this kind of streak? And what about the playoffs, where many ABs are critical.

Ugly one... Speculation as to playing time. And a complete ad hominem regarding past transactions. What matters is what V was doing for us and could be expected to do the remaining months.

Northey... Already covered. We will face lefties again and Donaldson should get some extra rest. Donaldson might get injured.

92-93... I seem to recall we got something in return for Lind. Besides, the remark presupposes the decision to get rid of Valencia is a fait accomplis, thus irrelevant to this discussion.

Dave till... I didn't realize there was any such thing as hitting too well as a team against left handed pitchers. If you look at v and collabello, v does everything better than c except hit right handed pitching. So from the utility aspect, v is superior.

85 blu jay... The transaction history again, with baseless speculation about character.

Notice that NONE of these address the issue is the stupidly of the 8 man pan, which is the crux of my critique.



Alex Obal - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 02:53 AM EDT (#308816) #
Anyway, did they plan on non-tendering Valencia?
christaylor - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 02:53 AM EDT (#308817) #
If the point is that the 8 Mann pen is nonsense, look no further than Gibbons. He seems to like it and AA has been careful to give him the roster he wants, partially, I suspect because if this team does not make the playoffs Gibbons is likely to be axed at the end of the season.

In light of this losing Valencia is kind of irrelevant, Gibbons made the choice and it is what it is, if it bites him in a key situation it will be on him and his opportunity to fail with agency over his own fate his own.

Forgive me, but really why are we wasting so many bits on the 26 man during an historic second in season win streak last accomplished by a 111 win team? I suggest tabling this until there is a tangible!e "I told you so" moment from the pro-Valencia camp. Personally while I don't care for the large pen, there is value in it (e.g., extra inning games) and value in a manager being happy with the roster at hand.

Can we start the Yankees thread already or marvel at the near sell out of a Thursday afternoon game? Or now that I am back home in Boston the sheer joy in the air around baseball
may non-hardcore fans are experiencing? The Jays are in the middle of something special that I hope can carry for a decade ish as it did from the mid 80s to 93. The fan base needs to be less grey (or at least less Gen X) and hopefully the next few years will pull that off.
christaylor - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 02:56 AM EDT (#308818) #
What is not cigent about keeping Gibbons happy? Happy employees tend to be productive employees.That's not bizarre if you have ever managed people.
christaylor - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 03:06 AM EDT (#308819) #
This. Please this. Please use the term manager... also anyone saying "back catcher", "unrestricted free agent", and "traded" for a free agent signing ought to be given a gentle scolding.

The popularity and filling of the bandwagon will have a down side and it will be hearing more of this and other things that sound like nails on a chalkboard to a baseball fan.
hypobole - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#308822) #
Speaking of coaches, has anyone seemed to have raised their level of job security more than Pete Walker the past few months?

I remember calling for a change on more than one occasion. I usually try to stay away from knee-jerk reactions,but like most fans, my line between correlation and causation can become very blurred, and have opinions on things I know little or nothing about.

A fairly mediocre/unproven staff has gone from abysmal to dominating. There have been pitcher injuries, but I can't remember one of the elbow/shoulder variety. I have no idea how much or little has been his contribution, other than helping fix Dickey's delivery, but in a results based industry, his stock certainly seems to have risen dramatically.
China fan - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#308826) #
Pete Walker may have been valuable in Estrada's dramatic improvement this year too.  Estrada seems to have made two significant changes this year: he's making consistent use of a cutter for the first time in his career, and he's locating his fastball more often up in the zone where hitters seem to be less likely to hit HRs off him. (Sounds counter-intuitive, I know, but apparently it has worked.)  It's hard to imagine that Estrada wouldn't have made those kinds of changes without a lot of discussion with Walker, and maybe even at Walker's behest.  Here's a good three-part analysis of the pitching changes that Estrada has made this year:   http://jaysjournal.com/2015/08/13/marco-estrada-toronto-blue-jays-avoiding-the-home-run/

Mike Green - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#308834) #
I'm a firm believer in almost all of Satchel Paige's rules for long living.  I particularly like "Don't Look Back".  In that spirit, it should be noted that the Royals now are only 5 games clear of the Jays in the battle for the first seed. 
pubster - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#308846) #
I don't think Valencia makes a big difference to the team, but I just felt bad for the guy. He seemed so excited when they got Price. And he has made contributions to the team.

I really do wish he goes on to have a Hall of Fame career. Which is not what I hope for Syndergaard, Norris, Lawrie, Barreto etc.

A month ago I didn't even know who Valencia was. And I'm not an emotional guy. I just don't understand why I have these feelings about him. For me the whole Valencia thing is as much about learning about myself as it is about Valencia.
hypobole - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#308848) #
Looking like attendance will surpass 2.7 million. RC last saw that 20 years ago.
92-93 - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#308857) #
"I seem to recall we got something in return for Lind. Besides, the remark presupposes the decision to get rid of Valencia is a fait accomplis, thus irrelevant to this discussion."

Sure, we got something in return for Lind, but the move was widely panned across the internet, and here. I'm sure Uglyone could pull out one of his handy wRC+ vs. RHP charts that were consistently being used to show Lind's greatness. The point then was that GMs didn't value Lind like the rest of Batter's Box, and that point is consistent with Danny Valencia today.

The Lind-Estrada trade thread: http://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20141101142454865

Nobody has been more vocal against and critical of 8 man bullpens on this website than me over the last few years. If you want to debate the usefulness of showing loyalty to Aaron Loup over the last few weeks that's a very different discussion than the value of Danny Valencia.

China fan - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#308862) #
Thanks for posting the Lind-Estrada threat, 92-93.   Always fascinating to glimpse the mood of the Box a few months ago in the early stages of the off-season.  Some people were baffled by Lind's trading. A few of us correctly anticipated that Happ would subsequently be traded, and most of us recognized that Estrada was a useful acquisition.  A few of us wrongly thought that Smoak wouldn't be a good replacement for Lind, although a couple of people did correctly suggest it. 
John Northey - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#308865) #
Fun going through the thread and seeing I didn't look like an idiot in retrospect.  The Martin 5 years I was saying we'd be eating the last year or two but if that is factored into the price then so be it.  Funny remembering how many wanted Melky resigned back then - Jays dodged a bullet there, I'd hate to have so much tied up in a guy who now is a mediocre 4th OF.
92-93 - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#308867) #
Melky is hitting .336/.377/.547 since June 9th. I wish the Jays had a mediocre 4th OF.
China fan - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#308869) #
Interestingly, most people in that November thread were very doubtful that the Jays had any chance of acquiring Russell Martin.
jerjapan - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#308872) #
always fun to read the offseason threads, especially when I'm as on point as I was in my comments re: Lind / Estrada:  "I expect a lot of movement this winter, but most of it lateral tinkering like this deal, with no real impact moves."

okay, not on point at all.  my takeaway from the offseason thread?  for every time we call it: "Martin would be a worthy risk", we also miss entirely: "Pablo Sandoval".
John Northey - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#308884) #
Didn't notice Melky finally found the right end of the bat.  July was his month 369/393/631 but in August 268/311/463 still nice but not 'wow'.  OPS by month 620/518/706/1024/775 For $13 mil this year with another $29 over the next two years.  No thank you.
hypobole - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#308891) #
The problem with Melky is than other than his bat, he only offers negative value. He's a poor baserunner, and while his defence in left isn't Colabello bad, it's bad nonetheless. So with his 97 wRC+ thus far, he's not much more than a replacement level player.
China fan - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#308895) #
Here's a choice excerpt from Jon Heyman's latest column, in which he focuses on the Jays and their trades over the past year:

...Gone in the many changes from last year were not necessarily any real problems, but one player who could be categorized by others as "a bit selfish," another as "occasionally mopey" and a third as "a clubhouse lawyer."....

(end excerpt)

Any guesses on who he's referring to?  I'm guessing Rasmus was the "mopey" one and Janssen was the "clubhouse lawyer."  Not sure who the "selfish" one was.

Sano - Friday, August 14 2015 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#308896) #
I would guess "mopey" = Lind, "selfish" = Lawrie and "lawyer" = Janssen.
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