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That went well.

And tell the pleasant prince this mock of his
Hath turned his balls to gun-stones, and his soul
Shall stand sore chargèd for the wasteful vengeance
That shall fly with them;




Yu Darvish returned to the Texas rotation at the end of May, after losing all of 2015 to Tommy John surgery. He made three starts before going back on the DL with neck and shoulder issues. He made it back for keeps at the All-Star Break, and went 5-5, 3.51 in his 14 second half starts, finishing his season with two very fine outings (against Oakland and Tampa Bay, but still.) This will be just the second post-season start of his career - it came against the Orioles in the 2012 Wild Card Game. Darvish pitched well, but Joe Saunders was better and the Rangers went home.

Darvish hasn't seen the Jays since July 2014, when he fanned 12 Jays in 6.2 IP en route to a 5-1 win at the Dome. The Jays did beat Darvish in Texas a couple of months before that. Darvish himself was outstanding that day as well (8IP, 5H, 2R, 11K), but Drew Hutchison chose that occasion to pitch his first career shutout. Overall, Darvish is 3-2, 2.45 in 7 career starts against Toronto, striking out 61 while walking just 17 in 47.2 IP.

J.A. Happ faced the Rangers just once this season, in Toronto back in May. He was in complete control, allowing just a single run in 7 IP as the Jays abused Derek Holland along the way to a 12-2 win.  Happ's now made 5 career starts against the Rangers and while the first (while he was with Houston) was a disaster, the last four have all been very good - even the two times he faced them last year during his brief and generally disappointing turn with the Seattle Mariners. Happ's career log against the Rangers to 3-2, 3.07 in 5 career starts - as a Blue Jay, he's 2-0, 1.38.

Oddly enough, the Jays are much more likely to change their lineup for Game 2 - I assume Saunders will be in for Upton, either at DH or in RF with Carrera moving to LF. The Texas lineup is pretty set. Banister could play Ryan Rua, a RH bat, instead of Shin-Soo Choo in RF or Mike Moreland at 1b. First-half rookie star Nomar Mazera seems to have been buried and forgotten somewhere on the bench, and he's another LH bat anyway.
ALDS Game 2: We'll Be Seeing Yu | 180 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
christaylor - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 07:40 AM EDT (#333495) #
I think it went well because of the post about one-run games. The baseball gods like to laugh at us.

Also, continuing from the other thread, have to hand it to Francona for his use of Miller. It has been too many years -- I remember he was willing to try "closer by committee" when Papelbon was put in the rotation but was it his decision to abandon it? Either way, much better bullpen management than Showalter.
Chuck - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#333496) #
What's refreshing is that Andrew Miller has been totally cool with how he is used. Not having signed as a FA with Cleveland (with promises of racking up saves), I understand that he has no leverage to "force" a specific role. That said though, while in NY, he had been signed to be a closer and ceded that to Chapman without raising a stink.

So good on Miller for being so flexible and good on Francona for recognizing that danger in a game sometimes rears its head early.

I don't know what it would take for more would-be closers like Miller to accept a less defined role and more managers like Francona to deploy their resources a little more unconventionally. Probably success, and then that successful behaviour getting imitated by others. That groupthink is what likely led to the various changes in reliever usage patterns we have seen over the years.

Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#333498) #
Francona's usage of Miller was very interesting, and (I would guess) driven by the pitching matchups and the schedule.  Miller is a huge upgrade on Trevor Bauer (after 78 pitches).  The leverage of the situation was not particularly high (Miller's average leverage was 1.18), but being able to tack on 2 innings to Bauer's 4.2 was essential to the Indians' victory.  The Indians have Kluber going today and then an off-day, so pushing the bullpen yesterday made all kinds of sense. 

Miller threw 40 pitches yesterday and so is probably not available today. 

uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#333499) #
red sox fans know full well how good Playoffs Tito is, especially with bullpen usage.

there is no tommorrow in the playoffs. you have a game 1 lead against boston and your mediocre pitcher is facing the 3rd time through the order, you bring out your best arms to win that game. You don't save anything for later.

and yes, gibby was right to use Price in exactly the same way last year, and the differing results from the two usages don't change the rightness of the process.
AWeb - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#333500) #
Using Miller like that makes total sense. I saw it argued in an article after the Britton debacle that "leverage" is a figment of the regular season (necessary due to the demands of the regular season and defined roles), and the proper time to use your best pitcher is basically always, if they are available. The Yankees seemed to realize it with Rivera for a decade, when he was capable of pitching multiple innings, he did. The Jays don't have a guy like that - Osuna is similar if healthy, but he's not amazing, just very good.

Texas seems to have serious fielding problems in the playoffs, don't know if they are normally like this. Several terrible plays yesterday (Andrus, Desmond, even Beltre whiffing on the Donaldson liner). The story last year was written in large part thanks to defensive mistakes in game 5. I'm hoping it's like that year Detroit pitchers in the World Series couldn't do anything right...just last a couple more games.

Won't get to see much of the game today, anyone know why Texas can't seem to get people to go to playoff games? The crowd shots yesterday...did fans leave early or did they just not show up? The time of day is pretty terrible, I guess, and Texas has been there a lot the last 5 years (seems weird, since they don't seem like a dominant team, but they have been). It would be awesome if given the long weekend, a few thousand dedicated Toronto fans made it there and made some noise for the Jays.
jjdynomite - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#333501) #
I can understand if not sympathize with the TBS announcing teams' homerism, what with the (somewhat unfairly) perceived arrogance of the Blue Jays roster, coupled with the (unfortunately justifiable) perceived Bob & Doug behaviour of the Blue Jays fan base. Okay, sure, and that Canadian viewership doesn't count in the ratings thing. Though I always enjoy the jocular yet amiable Ernie Johnson (especially on NBA telecasts).

However they are starting to reach self-parodic levels by bringing in Mr. Oriole for the Wild Card, and now the jinx-reverse-jinx of installing Eck to commentate through the ALDS. It looks like Robin Ventura has some newfound time on his hands; perhaps TBS can wheel him out for the ALCS.

In the meantime, the Jays' events crew should exclusively employ Robbie to throw out the first pitch for the rest of the ALDS played in the Dome, and make sure he raises his hands up pointing to the TBS broadcast booth after his throw. And keep Mitch Williams on speed dial for the WS.
mathesond - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#333503) #
"anyone know why Texas can't seem to get people to go to playoff games?"

From what I have read, the tickets were sold before the starting times were announced, and as the series isn't a big draw nationally in the US, the afternoon time slots allotted to it have people selling tickets for less than face value if they can't break work/school commitments.
Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#333504) #
You can go overboard with it.  The argument that leverage is not relevant in the post-season fails.  You cannot throw Andrew Miller for 2 innings every game in the post-season or his arm will fall off before you get to the World Series.  I am sure that if the Indians had been ahead 9-3 in the fifth, Francona would have brought on somebody else. 
Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#333505) #
the afternoon time slots allotted to it have people selling tickets for less than face value if they can't break work/school commitments.


School commitments in early October preventing a kid/adolescent/young adult from going to see a playoff game?.  No wonder the American education system is in such bad shape- if you can't get your priorities right when it's easy, how are you going to handle the hard problems?
Parker - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#333506) #
Bwahahaha!
85bluejay - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#333507) #
Travis has struggled since returning from the Yankees scuffle - it won't happen but I'd like to see Barney get a start (maybe with Sanchez/Stroman pitching) and have Carrera leadoff.

Francona was able to do what he did, knowing he has his ace Kluber going today.
Parker - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#333508) #
It could also be related to the educational movement that doesn't require anyone to learn how to read until Grade 9.
ayjackson - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#333509) #
I think the 5th inning is too early. If your offense breaks out in the 6-8th, you've wasted him for a game.

You have to get 27 outs. The heart of the order is coming up at least one more time. I'd bring him in in the 7th or 8th depending on leverage and part of the order due up.
bpoz - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#333510) #
Cleveland's pen is quite good. Congrats to who built it. Shatkins and the current guy.

I really hope Shatkins is good at constructing a pen. This year's Jay's pen fell apart except for Osuna. Biagini also but he was a unknown in ST.
Magpie - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#333511) #
Osuna is available. Bautista in RF, Saunders at DH. For the other guys, Rua in for Moreland, Mazara in for Choo.
Magpie - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#333512) #
Travis a late scratch with a sore knee. Barney plays 2b, bats 9th. Carrera to the top of the order.
John Northey - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#333513) #
For a playoff game I'd be willing to have my kid skip a day with 'baseball flu'. Of course, first I'd have to be willing to blow that much on tickets. If I was in Texas then $8 each would be easy but I'm an 18 hour drive from Toronto, let alone Texas. Ah well, someday I might get to see a playoff game in person - maybe if the Jays play the Twins someday in the playoffs (they are 5 hours away).
Chuck - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#333514) #
perceived Bob & Doug behaviour of the Blue Jays fan base

Bob and Doug would never waste a beer by throwing it at someone.

eudaimon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#333515) #
Can anyone explain why the games are starting at these times in the first place? It seems dumb to me to have playoff games on a weekday afternoon. Particularly this one in Texas, where the time there is actually 11am.

The schedule looks to be made so that a total baseball addict can spend all day watching baseball. But it's much less convenient for the people actually living in these areas and following the teams.

Magpie - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#333516) #
TV, man. That's where the money lives.
Cracka - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#333517) #
Television contracts - plain & simple. The time slots and the need to have afternoon games to prevent overlap is all driven by the very lucrative contracts with television networks. The local fans don't factor into the decision.
Alex Obal - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#333518) #
Baseball fandom is local - how many people really, actually care enough to watch the playoffs if their team isn't involved? I almost think having all four games staggered in prime time would increase total weekday viewership by Twins and Barves fans. If the four games start at 6, 7, 8 and 9, you're practically guaranteed at least one exciting finish. I guess there's a significant difference in the 12pm ratings for Jays/Rangers and, like, Law and Order or whatever. Anyway, you ever see an NBA playoff game on a Friday afternoon?
James W - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#333519) #
The NBA gets around this problem by only playing 2 or 3 games on a weekday night. On weekends, they spread out the 4 starting times -- 12:30, 3:30, 7:00 and 10:00 (approximately).
vw_fan17 - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#333520) #
If I was in Texas then $8 each would be easy but I'm an 18 hour drive from Toronto, let alone Texas.

Google maps seems to think it's ~15 hours from where you live (IIRC) to TO, and ~20 hours to Texas Stadium(!). Seems kinda strange that it's about the same duration (17 hours) to go to Kingston or Oklahoma City.. This year, you'd have the best luck with Chicago - only ~10 hours..

I'm 25 hours from Arlington stadium - Texas is more "south" than "west".

I've promised my kids that if the stars align and the Jays face the Giants in the WS (hey, it's an even year, and the Giants have to be pumped up!), we're going to one game at least, unless the prices are truly astronomical..
Petey Baseball - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#333521) #
Despite the quick inning, I like the Jays early approach to Darvish. He's always been a strike thrower with sharp out pitches. Better try and run into an early fastball rather than be chewed up by splitters late in the count.
ayjackson - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#333522) #
I'm only 18h 37m from Arlington. Should've gone.
CeeBee - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#333523) #
The TBS crew sounds OK with the TV muted. silence is golden :)
Magpie - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#333524) #
Tulo!
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#333525) #
I mean that was a no doubter, but the play by play guy really didn't want it to be.
Alex Obal - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#333526) #
Fear, anger, denial, bargaining, put it on the board.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#333527) #
heheh.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#333528) #
more excited about that Rua single than the homer.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#333529) #
lmao. commentators complaining about the umps now. amazing.

I agree with Buck - a younger Happ melts down in that situation, but the new Happ just bears down.
Petey Baseball - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#333530) #
Happ getting by on his fastball right now. If we can run into another one or two, it should be enough.
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#333531) #
Really surprised to see Mazara in there against a lefty. He's been pretty helpless against them this year: .234/.277/.270/.548
Choo has pretty big career splits, but still OPS's just under .700 against lefties, and in a small sample size this year was actually over 1.000.
Petey Baseball - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#333532) #
Darvish has pretty much lost his command. Time for Donaldson to center one up.
electric carrot - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#333533) #
At the moment I think this Jays team is better playoff team than the 2015 Jays. Nearly as good hitting, better pitching, more playoff experience.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#333534) #
honestly I think they're better hitting than last year's playoff team. what with tulo actually contributing and no goins.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#333535) #
all the worry about donaldson but it's martin that's clearly injured i think. Not that his pitcher whispering isn't still immensely valuable....but I would bump tulo up to 5th now. he means business.
Four Seamer - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#333536) #
Yes, leaving Martin in the 5-hole during his prolonged slump was curious enough, but now that Tulo is really heating up it is all the more inexplicable.  Those two really ought to be flipped. 
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#333537) #
lmao look at where that pitch was!

pillar is a maniac.
jerjapan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#333538) #
Wilner just called Pillar "the poor man, I mean, the destitute man's Vladamir Guerrero".
SK in NJ - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#333539) #
Pillar and Carrera with home runs.

Yeah, I'll take that.
blu-j - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#333540) #
Holy crap, that was high!!!!  Will that result in another write-up on fangraphs? :)
Magpie - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#333541) #
That's his power zone! (Him and Pedroia.)
jerjapan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#333542) #
Time for Biagini?
jerjapan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#333543) #
Heck, maybe time for Feldman ...
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#333544) #
somehow I think these haymakers are much more painful to them than Odor's was to us.
SK in NJ - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#333545) #
It's not September anymore.
scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#333546) #
To a Rangers fan, this must feel like a punch to the jaw.

First Pillar, then Carrera then a parrot flew over the stadium.

Another amazing game. I'm still trying to figure out how I'll account for my time at work...

Dave Till - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#333547) #
I'm following on Gameday, so I don't have any details on the home runs. Other than there have been lots of them.

At this point, I'd be worried that Texas pitchers are going to start throwing at people. After all, hitting multiple home runs is disrespectful.

Hypothesis: the AL West is not baseball's toughest division. It might not be so much that the Jays are good as that the Rangers are not so good. Though I am willing to be convinced that the Jays have gotten good again. :-)
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#333548) #
even if the rangers aren't that good (which is likely)...still hamels and darvish are good, which means the jays are playing pretty well regardless.
Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#333549) #
I'm still trying to figure out how I'll account for my time at work...

Community development, analysis and investigative research...I like to work at nothing all day. 
Alex Obal - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#333550) #
BABIP through 5: Jays .091, Rangers .444
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#333551) #
Darvish is another guy who hasn't pitched much lately, and may not be as sharp as usual. This is only his 4th start in the last 28 days. Instead of the usual 4 days rest between starts, he's had 7,6,5 and now 6 days of rest for his last 4 starts. Or maybe the Blue Jays are just really good...
Parker - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#333552) #
Most home runs ever given up in a game by Darvish.

Yeah.
Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#333553) #
Gibbons got the memo.  Biagini in at a good time.
Petey Baseball - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#333554) #
Tack on a couple more here guys, I need some sleep.
Parker - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#333555) #
You can't help but love the objective commentary from the commentators that makes one actually miss the Jeter/Ortiz spankfest gushing from Buck and Pat.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#333556) #
the jays would never get this call reversed for them.
Gerry - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#333557) #
What happened to take the safe out?....call confirmed but risky.
Parker - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#333558) #
"Oh, that HURTS."

Jesus.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#333559) #
commentators sound suicidal at this point.
Parker - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#333560) #
It's no secret that the entire league hates the Blue Jays, and maybe they have reason to do so. This commentary is really quite remarkable, though.
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#333561) #
Yah, that was quite a gamble with a 4 run lead, but it worked. Barely.
Petey Baseball - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#333562) #
In Donaldson's defence, Desmond hesitated twice. Pretty hard not to see that.

All the breaks going the Jays way. Seems appropriate considering what happened in September.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#333563) #
cecil is making it impossible not to make liriano his primary high lev LHP.
krose - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#333564) #
Have never seen a guy on a playoff caliber team get so many chances and screw up so consistently.
SK in NJ - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#333565) #
I thought that was over-managing by Gibbons. Biagini was doing fine, no need to take him out for Cecil. Now, Grilli is in a tough spot against a good hitter.
Kasi - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#333566) #
Don't understand pulling Biagini. Now you've used more bullpen pieces for no good reason.
Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#333567) #
I wish that they had started Odor off with the fastball.  Cecil tends to get in trouble when he misses with the curveball to begin an at-bat. Fortunately, it all turned out well.
Mike Green - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#333568) #
Matt Bush in to pitch.  Hmm.
krose - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#333569) #
These announcers love Bush!
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#333570) #
"Holy crap, that was high!!!! Will that result in another write-up on fangraphs? :)"

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/instagraphs/kevin-pillar-hit-a-stupid-home-run/
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#333571) #
argh that was a foul ball eddy.
Gerry - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#333572) #
Is that play by EE not reviewable? He touched it in foul territory.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#333573) #
good question.
krose - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#333574) #
No comment from announcers on first pitch strike called a ball.
krose - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#333575) #
Not reviewable.
John Northey - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#333576) #
Weird. Even a home run wouldn't tie the game and the announcers are talking like you gotta bring in Osuna at that moment. Now he is coming in with tying run coming up.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#333577) #
dammit. gibby i think was really counting on liriano to get through one and maybe two. this could turn out badly.
Gerry - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#333578) #
Stroman time...for the ninth.
krose - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#333579) #
Good idea. This game is not worth sacrificing Osuna's health.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#333580) #
osuna is so ridiculously good. hopefully his arm doesn't fall off.
Michael - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#333581) #
The strikeouts so sweet. One night e thing (for me) about this start time, is that it is lunch time on the West coast so a well timed lunch can cover much of the game. I did have to tell the pizza place I'm at to change their bar tv from some nfl talk show to the baseball.
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#333582) #
If they use Stroman, then they have a problem for the game 4 starter. The alternative is Sanchez here, then Stroman pitches game 3 on 4 days rest, and Sanchez is OK for game 4, as long as he only throws 15-20 pitches here.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#333583) #
that was an awesome replay of walker and osuna chatting mano a mano.
jamesq - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#333584) #
Gibbons using Cecil and Grilli for one batter each is frustrating. Hope it works out.
Gerry - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#333585) #
If Stroman threw 101-15 pitches he would still be fine to pitch on Monday.
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#333586) #
I was stunned he took Grilli out.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#333587) #
I think his quick hook on those guys was overconfidence in liriano.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#333588) #
upton just gave up on that.
Michael - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#333589) #
That seemed catchable, if hard. Rangers named Belt* are good.
Michael - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#333590) #
Odor is always nice to see get punched out.
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#333591) #
Nice, a 1-pitch out.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#333592) #
I love Osuna so so so much.
blu-j - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#333593) #
Had 'em all the way!

Osuna definitely earned his day off tomorrow!!!

CeeBee - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#333594) #
Love seeing "stinky" strike out
Michael - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#333595) #
Nice! Pillar's stutter step a little nerve wracking. Osuna is such a stud. He looks like he's pitching nice easy slow pitches that end up being 96 and 97 on the gun.
vw_fan17 - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#333596) #
Stranglehold! Wait, what's this? PRAISE for Osuna???
John Northey - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#333597) #
Now, if Gibbons can just resist using Osuna in game 3 so he can rest a bit. Hopefully another 10-1 win in game 3 so we can all relax for a few days. :)
bpoz - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#333598) #
Whew!!! Cheers everyone, to a lovely month of October.
Kasi - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#333599) #
Woot nice win. Now a day off to get the relievers all back for Sanchez in game 3.
Michael - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#333600) #
It is super great to win, but remember not every 2-0 lead means a series win. Still need to win another. But yeah, Sanchez at home against a mid-at-best Tex starter, seems a good thing to be optimistic about.
Alex Obal - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#333601) #
Pat Tabler's knowing smile is by far the best thing about these Sportsnet studio segments.

Osuna is incredible.

China fan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#333602) #
I agree with the criticism of the TBS crew.  All they could say about J.A. Happ was that he benefited from a lot of run support this season.  As if the Jays offense was the only explanation for Happ's 20 wins.  Completely ignoring his excellent performances this season.

I really hope Liriano and Osuna are okay.  As mentioned above, the TV shot of Walker talking to Osuna in the dugout was very revealing.  After the 8th inning, Walker put both of his arms on Osuna's shoulders and looked him straight in the eyes and asked him, in great seriousness, whether he was okay to go another inning.  Osuna nodded yes.  And Walker and Gibbons decided to put their faith in him, and they were right. 

The 8-man bullpen makes a little more sense now.  Everyone except Feldman was either in the game or warming up in this one.  Yes, it could be argued that Gibbons pulled Biagini and Grilli a little too early, but he figured Liriano was good for 2 innings, and he probably expected to use Osuna for one or two hitters at most.  A fluke line drive off Liriano's neck could not have been predicted by anyone.

uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#333603) #
Liriano with a neck brace stretchered to ambulance to hospital. not great.
China fan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#333604) #
As I argued at some length in yesterday's thread, I think the Jays are a better team in the playoffs this year than they were in the playoffs last year.  One reason is the patience and intelligence of their veteran hitters.  They are putting together some great at-bats against the best Texas starters, they are wearing down the starters, and they are finding ways to get on base.  And they still have that slugging power that we enjoyed last year.  Combine those offensive advantages with an excellent pitching staff and it adds up to a better team.
China fan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#333605) #
Liriano's neck brace and hospital visit could be precautionary.   Let's wait and see.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#333606) #
2 things to reinforce:

1. Osuna's hesitation step on that last crucial pitch demonstrated gigantic testicles.
2. I know i give him lots of grief but dammit Upton's lazy/scared misplay almost cost us the game - and he's a defensive replacement! pompey should really be playing ahead of him. that play was a disgrace.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#333607) #
David Price, man.

I'm happy but still sad.
Chuck - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#333608) #
Is it right to feel bad for a guy making $200M and playing for the Red Sox? Or is Price merely testing the limits of my empathy?
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#333609) #
in the end, there is such thing as clutch.

or at least there is such thing as choking.
SK in NJ - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#333610) #
It's been mentioned but Gibby burning Cecil and Grilli for one batter each could have been costly, even moreso after Liriano was hit in the head, though obviously no one saw that coming. Left no choice but to use Osuna for more than an inning, but thankfully he gutted it out. The Jays really miss Benoit, especially if Cecil can't be trusted.

Regardless, nice win. We all saw last year that leading 2-0 heading home isn't a guarantee but I like the pitching match ups in the next two games.



scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#333611) #
Price was good for 16 earned runs against the Blue Jays in last year's playoffs.  I don't know if the rest of the Boston rotation is good enough to let him top that.
SK in NJ - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#333612) #
Price having a bad start.

Must be October.
scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#333613) #
Liriano has some bad luck there. Hopefully he's okay. Cecil is only good for one batter at this point, unless you have a 10 run lead, but in that case, I much prefer Tepera. Cecil is trying real hard to minimize his next year earning. I'd take a flyer for one year 1 million in case he turns it around, but that's it. I'm curious to see if anybody will beat that.
China fan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#333614) #
Can someone clarify the injury rules:  if Liriano needs 2 or 3 games to recover, can the Jays replace him for the ALDS series, or do they have to replace him for the entire remainder of the playoffs?  I'd heard somewhere that injured players have to be replaced for the entire playoffs, or at least for multiple series.  That doesn't seem to make sense, but perhaps that's the rule. Liriano might need a week of recovery time, rather than two weeks, so why should they have to lose him for the next series too?

If they decide to replace him on the roster, I would vote for Barnes, rather than Schultz.

scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#333615) #
I don't mind the biased tv crew. It would be really annoying if Texas was winning, but listening to them squirm is delicious.
Kasi - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#333616) #
Price is a nice guy but clutch he is certainly not. Enjoy his regular season performances Red Sox fans.
Cracka - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#333617) #
China Fan - if you replace an injured player, they must miss the entire NEXT series. So Liriano could go on the DL, be replaced on the roster, and be eligible for the World Series only.
Kasi - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#333618) #
Well as long as it's precautionary and its just missing a few days I don't expect the Jays to do any roster moves here. They need Liriano for the next series and replacing him would rule him out for the ALCS. Like CF said good thing they have 8 pitchers now.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#333619) #
"I don't mind the biased tv crew. It would be really annoying if Texas was winning, but listening to them squirm is delicious"

yeah i enjoy their tears far more than BuckNPat's inanities.
China fan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#333620) #
Thanks, Cracka.  I suppose the logic of that rule might be to replicate (roughly) the 15 days of a standard DL stint. 

I had thought Liriano could be a key guy in this series, but they might not need him in games 3 or 4 anyway, since Sanchez and Stroman might be good for 7 innings each.  And if it goes to a 5th game, Estrada could be good for 8 innings.  For the next game, the Jays should certainly have Biagini, Grilli and Cecil available, along with Tepera/Feldman/Loup and maybe even Osuna for a short stint.   But I'm counting on the Jays lineup crushing the ball at their home park against Colby Lewis (FIP of 4.81 this year).

For the next series, I suppose there's also a chance that Benoit could be back.

scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#333621) #
Biagini is big in the bullpen now. You can play matchups with Loup/Tepera/Cecil/Feldman if an extra inning is needed but with the frequent off days, the bullpen should manage.
BlueJayWay - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#333622) #
Travis getting an MRI on the knee. Seems doubtful for Game 3.
dan gordon - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#333623) #
Might have to play short for the rest of this series if Travis needs a few days off. You'd hate to lose him for the next series if you don't have to.
vw_fan17 - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#333624) #
(just kind of thinking out loud here)
If Travis is hurting, then we have no backup infielders.. Well, I guess Barney can cover any IF position, and if needed, Martin slides to 2B for a game to cover for Barney. But that means no rest for Donaldson as a DH, for example. And that's the way that you get Martin hurt - playing him out of position - which would be worse than losing Travis - it affects EVERY pitcher, and Thole becomes the backup. Worst case, I guess, JB or EE could play 3B for a game (accepting an error or two), and we have players who can fill in for them at OF/1B.

IMHO, it all depends on Liriano - if he's hurt, then bring in Goins for Liriano - if we're keeping Travis as day-to-day.

If Liriano can go, then Tepera or Loup might have to "trip down the stairs to the clubhouse" to bring in Goins - I'm sure we can find a way to live without Tepera or Loup next series..

If both are legit hurt, then bring in Goins + other pitcher.
Magpie - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#333625) #
it all depends on Liriano - if he's hurt, then bring in Goins for Liriano

No can do. The post-season rules say he has to be replaced by a pitcher.
China fan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#333626) #
Just saw a report that Liriano is fine.  The tests came back negative, and he'll be returning to Toronto with the team.  Great news!
scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#333627) #
That looks like a new low for Price. He's done for this series and if Boston doesn't pull out an unlikely comeback he doesn't seem worth more than 30M a year, so might as well forget about that opt out clause.
greenfrog - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#333628) #
I wonder if Lucroy is rethinking his decision to nix the Brewers-Indians trade.
uglyone - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#333629) #
i really really want to beat boston head to head but seeing them get swept humiliatingly in the first round is the next best thing.
King Ryan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#333630) #
Great game, again. Timing is everything. :)

Having said that, I really, really hope that is the last we see of "Melvin Upton, defensive replacement." To think Gibbons could have been without Bautista in extras because of that.
King Ryan - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#333631) #
The TV crew might be pulling for Texas but I think you guys are a little hyper sensitive. I am enjoying hearing some new voices after a full season of buck and pat. They've made some good observations too.
Thomas - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#333632) #
China Fan, the logic of the rule that the player has to miss the following series as well is to stop the Jays from removing JA Happ from the roster following today's game (or Sanchez after Sunday's game as a better example, as Happ could be available to pitch Wednesday) and stating that he has a sore shoulder and replacing him with Dalton Pompey. If Happ/Sanchez/Stroman wasn't required to miss the following series, the Jays could remove each of them following their start and replace them at no penalty should they advance.
John Northey - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#333633) #
Gotta love what $30 mil gets you.

A) David Price: 3 1/3 IP 6 H 5 R/ER 2 BB 3 SO 1 HR

B) Estrada/Happ: 13 1/3 IP 13 H 2 R/ER 1 BB 11 SO 0 HR

B) is $11.5 + $10 mil this year = $21.5 Mil
A) is $30 mil a year until 2022 (grows to $32 mil at some point)

Yeah, the Jays won that last winter. To put it mildly. Not to mention the Jays drafted Bo Bichette as compensation for losing Price (I think).
scottt - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#333634) #
Having said that, I really, really hope that is the last we see of "Melvin Upton, defensive replacement." To think Gibbons could have been without Bautista in extras because of that.

Upton is frustrating, but it's better than Bautista getting hurt trying to catch a ball against the wall.
prospect - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#333635) #
Not to mention the Jays drafted Bo Bichette as compensation for losing Price (I think)

We didn't get compensation for Price since he's a rental. Happ replacing him is more than any Jays fan could ask for though
John Northey - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#333636) #
Doh. Thanks. My mistake there - really dumb one too as I knew that.
John Northey - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#333637) #
Btw, this has got to be getting to play on Price's mind by now. He is an excellent pitcher but for whatever reason when the post-season hits he falls apart. No way should I be wanting a guy like Estrada or Happ to pitch in the playoffs over Price but right now I wouldn't want to trade either one-for-one for Price for the remainder of the playoffs even though we all know Price is by far the better pitcher. I suspect someday Price will have a solid playoff start for someone (sadly it'll probably be the Red Sox) but until he does the Jays will look smart for not attempting to resign him.
Dr B - Friday, October 07 2016 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#333638) #
The post-season rules say he has to be replaced by a pitcher.

What are you sayin' about my man Goins...?

http://en.canoe.stats.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?gamecode=360701114&final=true



eudaimon - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#333639) #
My biggest problem with the announcers is that they don't know anything about the team. For instance, they seemed extremely surprised to see Bautista try to shoot one to right field the other day. I guess they just assume he's a dead pull hitter a la Ortiz, but he's much more adaptable than Ortiz and pokes a ball through the right side pretty regularly. This shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.

I'd be willing to bet that none of the commentators have watched a single full Blue Jays game this year, and in a perfect world it'd be nice to listen to people who have actually followed the team. I have no way to know if the coverage of the Rangers is any better, though they do seem to like that team a little bit more.
dan gordon - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#333640) #
Quite a pitchers' duel between Cueto and Lester tonight. Cueto pitches a complete game 3-hitter with 10K's and 0 walks and loses.

I'd like to see the Jays give Estrada an extension this offseason if they can get him to agree to another year or two at roughly the same rate.
Dr B - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 12:14 AM EDT (#333641) #
Price will have his day. I seem to remember an article claiming he was tipping his pitches last playoffs. But even if that was true, he'd have fixed that by now. Maybe it is indeed a confidence thing, and he's nibbling. I wonder if he's ever going to be a candidate for the hall of fame; you'd probably want more wins and fewer face-plants on your playoff resume.

Still we can enjoy the Schadenfreude while it lasts.




pooks137 - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 02:09 AM EDT (#333642) #

I wonder if Lucroy is rethinking his decision to nix the Brewers-Indians trade.

Doubt it. Lucroy's refusal to waive his limited NTC and go to CLE was purportedly over the fact that CLE told him that he wasn't guaranteed the starting catcher position in 2017 in his contract year when a healthy Yan Gomes returns.

Lucroy's refusal to go to CLE wasn't about this year, it was all about 2017 and his next big payday thereafter

Glevin - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 04:42 AM EDT (#333643) #
"Doubt it. Lucroy's refusal to waive his limited NTC and go to CLE was purportedly over the fact that CLE told him that he wasn't guaranteed the starting catcher position in 2017 in his contract year when a healthy Yan Gomes returns."

That never made any sense to me. Lucroy is way better than Gomes. No way Cleveland would give up tons of assets to get an elite catcher and then sit him behind Yan Gomes. They are not a dumb organization. I think Lucroy thought that he could get more money and went for it and the Indians didn't bite.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#333644) #
I really think the pressure games at the end of the season against Boston were a big help to the Jays. They came through and won when they really had to and it really has seemed to galvanize them.The one game wild card was another boost and I think the first two games against Texas they have been not only the better team but also the looser team as far as feeling pressure. Contrast this to last year when the division was clinched with several games to play. Backups took over for the second half of the doubleheader and then played the next day, both loses. Regulars were rested more for the last few games and the team entered the playoffs without the urgency and confidence they needed. They lost their first two games against Texas before waking up and performing to their capabilities.It seems like Boston is following the same path this year,but maybe I'm wrong and there is no such thing as momentum. Maybe baseball is just baseball, and a three game losing streak, that means nothing during the regular season,is what ends things for a team in the playoffs.
Magpie - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#333645) #
"What are you sayin' about my man Goins...?

Good point!
Cracka - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#333646) #
The following pitchers induced FEWER double play ground balls than Ryan Goins in 2016: Mark Lowe (49.1 IP), Rubby De La Rosa (50.2 IP), Justin Grimm (52.2 IP), and Ken Giles (65.2 IP)... all had 0 GIDP.
uglyone - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#333647) #
Playoff roster age comp: TOR - BOS

1. 4 SP, 3 high lev RP, 9 Starting Hitters

Bautista 35 ----- Uehara 41
Encarnacion 33 -- Ortiz 40
Martin 33 ------- Ziegler 36
Happ 33 --------- Ramirez 32
Estrada 32 ------ Pedroia 32
Liriano 32 ------ Buchholz 31
Tulowitzki 31 --- Price 30
Donaldson 30 ---- Kimbrel 28
Saunders 29 ----- Holt 28
Carrera 28 ------ Leon 27
Pillar 27 ------- Porcello 27
Biagini 26 ------ Bradley 26
Stroman 25 ------ Rodriguez 23
Travis 25 ------- Bogaerts 23
Sanchez 23 ------ Betts 23
Osuna 21 -------- Benintendi 21

2. Bench + MR

Grilli 39 -------- Hill 34
Feldman 33 ------- Young 32
Navarro 32 ------- Kelly 28
Upton 31 --------- Ross 27
Barney 30 -------- Pomeranz 27
Smoak 29 --------- Shaw 26
Cecil 29 --------- Barnes 26
Loup 28 ---------- Vazquez 25
Tepera 28 -------- Hernandez 23
pooks137 - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#333648) #

That never made any sense to me. Lucroy is way better than Gomes. No way Cleveland would give up tons of assets to get an elite catcher and then sit him behind Yan Gomes. They are not a dumb organization. I think Lucroy thought that he could get more money and went for it and the Indians didn't bite.

Possibly, good point. Lucroy negotiated a limited NTC in his contract and he certainly had the right to demand compensation to waive it.

But I think the rumour probably had merit. Cleveland was probably unwilling to guarantee Lucroy X number of catching starts next year in his last year before free agency. They have five years left of team cost-control over Yan Gomes. His defense is supposed to be good. Long-term he's their guy.

Gomes has been pretty bad the last two years, but he was a stud the two years before that. I'm sure Lucroy would have been an upgrade and would have still got the lion's share of the catcher starts, but CLE probably was being pragmatic in a Shapiro-like fashion and was unwilling to pledge to just cast an asset like Gomes aside

Parker - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#333649) #
Makes sense. Cleveland wanted to do what they thought was best for the organization and Lucroy wanted to do what he thought was best for him. There just wasn't a fit. Hard to blame Lucroy; the guy has been one of the top three catchers in baseball over the last seven years and he's never had a big payday.

Now that I look at it, it's hard to figure what Cleveland was thinking - Santana is entrenched at DH at least through 2017, and even though their starting 1B Napoli is probably gone this year, Lucroy has never spent any significant time at 1B (and looked very bad there in a limited sample) and honestly, you'd think it'd be very insulting to a player of his calibre to be asked to move that far across the defensive spectrum just to get his bat in the lineup. Despite Gomes' superior defensive numbers, I bet if Cleveland hadn't locked him into that contract, Lucroy would be an Indian right now, and Gomes would spend his arby years riding the bench.
China fan - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#333650) #
"....If Travis is hurting, then we have no backup infielders...."

This is definitely a concern.   And the team now has no pinch-runners either, except perhaps Upton.  It would be great to put Goins on the roster, but I just don't think it's feasible to fake an injury to a reliever.   I think the Jays will have to hope that they finish off Texas quickly, get some rest days, and get Travis back for at least some of the next series. 
92-93 - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#333651) #
I probably leave Biagini in there myself, but I think Gibby wants to get Cecil involved and thought after Biagini had gotten 5 outs and thrown 20 pitches that it was a good time to go lefty on lefty for Odor. It's certainly not a quick hook when Cecil completely fails and throws 4 straight balls to put a 2nd runner on in a 5-1 game, and the batter coming up is the RH Lucroy.

The hook on Grilli wasn't really quick either. He took the mound in the 8th inning until Moreland was announced, at which point 2 of TEX's next 3 hitters were LHP because Mazzara was around the corner, and the Rangers have Choo sitting on the bench too. I was happy to see Grilli removed and Liriano brought in, and at that point was hoping Liriano would be able to close out the 4 run lead for the Jays. The look of that line drive was so sickening that it would be unbelievable if he's available to return at any point in the coming weeks, but the early reports do sound promising so let's hope it's truly nothing more than a sore neck.

When Osuna came back out it felt like we were sacrificing the kid at the altar, but he threw some extremely encouraging fastballs where his arm action looked loose and the ball flew out of his hands with ease. I don't really understand what could have been serious enough for him to have been yanked from the wild card game that he could return so quickly from and be asked to get 5 outs, but if he's on board flags fly forever.
pooks137 - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#333652) #

Playoff roster age comp: TOR - BOS

1. 4 SP, 3 high lev RP, 9 Starting Hitters

Interesting list, uglyone.

It really puts it into perspective how old Toronto is as a team compared to Boston.

I remember Gibbons mentioning the other day that a positive note of taking Estrada out in the 9th was giving a guy like Tepera some postseason experience

But Tepera, riding the AAA shuttle and probably penciled in next year to fill one of the opening in the bullpen, is 28, turning 29 in November! Rick Porcello is only 27 and I remember him going head-to-head with Ricky Romero in his rookie year. Craig Kimbrel is only 28 and he seems like he has been around for ever.

Even Toronto's backup and AAA guys are old

China fan - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#333653) #
The MRI on Travis today showed no structural damage, and he's day-to-day.  Liriano is undergoing more tests as a precaution for concussion.  But it seems the Jays may have dodged a couple of bullets there.  Both could be back to help the Jays by the next series, if not sooner.

On the bullpen situation:  there's a lot of concern that Grilli and Biagini might be losing steam at this stage of a long season.  Biagini's seasons have usually ended in early September in the past.  Grilli's fatigue has been visible.   Both seem to pitch better when they have more rest.  This is probably one reason why Gibbons gave them a relatively early hook yesterday.  The good news is that they now have 48 hours to rest up for the next game, and they might not be needed.  Osuna, too, is probably less fatigued than we had earlier assumed.  He was hitting 97 and 98 mph yesterday, and he insists he is feeling great, with no sign of the "stretch" that was reported last Tuesday.  So if the bullpen is carefully managed, it should be okay, even if Liriano is unavailable for a few more days.

jjdynomite - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#333654) #
That's amusing Pooki that you see uglyone's list as implying that the Jays are far OLDER than the BoSox. Uglyone has a rep for seeing the Jays as not a particularly old team and advocates that all the downside-of-their-incredible-careers guys get re-signed to long-term contracts without hesitation (last year Price, now JBats and EE).

The thing is, whereas one could argue that the Jays have four reliable-to-aceworthy pitchers 26 and under in Biagini, Stroman, Sanchez and Osuna, Boston has four 26 and under studs in the lineup In the Killer Bs: Bradley, Bogaerts, Betts and Benintendi.

It's looking pretty good that the Jays go farther in this playoffs, but I wouldn't bet my baseball-signed-by-the-1985-Blue-Jays-roster that this positive outcome will be repeated for the foreseeable future. Most of us have been pleasantly surprised by Shapkins' successes to date, but Dombrowski's track record puts theirs to shame, as do the financial resources at his disposal. Though who knows, maybe the retiring Big Papi is their talisman of postseason success.
uglyone - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#333655) #
not sure how you can look at that list and see the jays as older, pookie, other than the bench and middle relief.

and is 26yr old Jackie Bradley a stud?

Career:

Bradley (26): 1421pa, 93wrc+, 3.4war/650
Pillar (27): 1444pa, 85wrc+, 3.7war/650

Last 50gms:

Bradley (26): 199pa, 86wrc+
Pillar (27): 190pa, 87wrc+
jjdynomite - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#333656) #
Okay uglyone I can see why you annoy some people with your out-of-context stats although I don't particularly care myself. Bradley had a Pillar-like offensive start to his career, to be sure, but this season he has a 5.3 WAR and made his first (of likely many) All-Star teams. And Pillar and Travis are our only decent under 30 hitters. And I am saying this as someone who loves what Pillar adds to the team defensively (how can one not).
uglyone - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#333657) #
out of context, how so?

AA

Bradley (22-22): 127wrc+
Pillar (24-24): 124wrc+

AAA

Bradley (23-25): 133wrc+
Pillar (24-25): 135wrc+

MLB

Bradley (26): 1421pa, 93wrc+, 3.4war/650
Pillar (27): 1444pa, 85wrc+, 3.7war/650

Last 50gms:

Bradley (26): 199pa, 86wrc+
Pillar (27): 190pa, 87wrc+



Offensively his season has been pretty much the exact same season as Saunders had - Bradley peaked at 146wrc+ with a .350babip on July 26th, and has posted a 73wc+ with a .250babip since, ending up at 118 overall. Saunders peaked at 144wrc+ with a .350babip on July 25th, and has posted a 60wrc+ with a .250babip ever since, ending up at 117 overall.



Gerry - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#333658) #
Travis has a bone bruise and received a cortisone shot. Generally you need rest after cortisone so I wouldn't expect he would play tomorrow. Monday is a possibility.

Liriano has a "mild" concussion. He hasn't tried any activity which sometimes makes a concussion worse. He cannot return until team doctors and MLB clears him. Again I would think he is doubtful for tomorrow.
CeeBee - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#333659) #
ugly... the box is made up of optimists and pessimists. After years of hanging out here I'd say the pessimists are either growing in numbers or becoming more vocal. Either way, no matter how much or how little you make sense you will never get a consensus around these parts, even if the Jays win the World Series or trade for Mike Trout or Clayton Kershaw. I usually do enjoy your posts but then again, what do I know :)
Kasi - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#333660) #
It's not that Ceebee, it's just we think most of his statistical analysis is extremely slanted to making whatever point he is trying to make.

Instead of that huge spiel he wrote comparing Bradley and Pillar why don't I just do this? 93/80 vs 121/118. That is the two players WRC in the last two years.

By making his splits last 50 games (where Bradley was slumping) and full career (that includes stats from three years ago where in his first full year in the bigs he had a 47 WRC) he makes the point he wants to make, that the two are equal. i can't speak to why uglyone does this and why he manipulates stats this way. It's extremely disenguous and it takes away from his credibility from when he does make good points.

But I'd like everyone to go to fangraphs and look at the bios for those two players. Than look at that post. Decide for yourself if that is a fair breakdown of the players.

electric carrot - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#333661) #
uglyone has his/her agendas.  Some of them I agree with: like the Jays are underrated and a better team than most here think.  Some I think are a less convincing: like management was out to lunch for not signing David Price and let's not forget the rant against signing Estrada and Happ at the time as mediocre, middling pitchers we might just as easily find on the scrapheap.  But I never find uo disingenuous. And I almost always read the posts with interest and enjoy the passion of the arguments whether I agree or not.
Kasi - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#333662) #
And yes Bradley is a stud. He got sent down after a bad first year in the majors, spent half of 2015 in the minors and since coming back has been a very consistent hitter averaging about 5 WAR/season. Pillar has a much better glove to be sure, but in the matter of hitting major league pitching their is no comparison. Not to mention the post that broke down their young killer Bs don't account for that not including the number one prospect in all of baseball in Moncada.

Now that being said I'm happy to see the Sox choke this postseason. Price is doing his usual stuff and those hitters are pretty young and raw. Nice thing about playoffs is lots of off days. That is really going to help the Jays. Now while I don't love the Jays hitters going forward from a regular season/age perspective in the playoffs with only playing two out of three days it plays right into their wheelhouse.

All the AL teams are really flawed and the Jays have a good a chance as any of them. World Series will be harder, but that's the one time they would get home field.
Kasi - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#333663) #
Then explain to me electric carrot why those four splits were shown? Why minor league numbers, why whole career and then only last 50 games? Anyone familiar with Bradley would know he went to the minors last year and if you just look at last two years total numbers since he came back you see 121/118. So why go out of your way to hide that?
electric carrot - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#333664) #
Kasi, both of their entire career stats are there. Clearly the last 50 games is the least important stat in the list. I didn't even really look at it. 
China fan - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#333665) #
It is amusing to me, too, that uglyone would do his typical lengthy list of data, designed to show that the Jays aren't any older than the Red Sox, and someone would look at the list and reach the opposition conclusion.  While I enjoy and respect uglyone's posts, I do think that sometimes he should synthesize his data into coherent clear sentences, instead of assuming that the stats speak for themselves.  He typically presents a huge long list of numbers. as if that is all he needs to say -- as if the data is so obvious that he doesn't need to explain it.  The problem is that we can all look at the same data and draw different conclusions from it (especially when, as mentioned, there are arbitrary endpoints or projections).  I think he would be more convincing if he made his argument in clear prose, clear sentences, with the data included as part of his sentences, rather than as stand-alone statistical lists.  It would be more understandable, and we could see his thinking immediately, rather than trying to guess the meaning of a list of stats.
Mike Green - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#333666) #
Two things:

1. I want to confirm that I only had a brief look at the fan in the NY cap at the ballpark who unleashed the virulent anti-woman diatribe (that I mentioned a couple of days ago) but I am pretty sure that it wasn't Donald Trump, although there were definite similarities in the manner of speaking.
2. My understanding is that if the club holds off on making a decision on Liriano and Travis for a couple of days and the club closes out the ALDS before they make a decision, and if they subsequently put one or both on the DL before the ALCS starts, the player(s) on the DL will miss the World Series as well. Is that right?  Or does the punitive aspect apply only once the next series begins or when the rosters for the next series are announced?

Mike Green - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#333667) #
Re #2:

John Lott advises of a new rule that applies especially for concussions.  The Blue Jays can replace Liriano for tomorrow without losing him for the ALCS.  I am pretty sure that they will do that. 

electric carrot - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#333668) #
It would be more understandable, and we could see his thinking immediately, rather than trying to guess the meaning of a list of stats.

Disagree on two counts:
#1 I always know what uglyone is trying to prove just because I check in enough to understand the uo gist.
#2 I love it when people misinterpret the info. How people read it is actually much more fun for me than having uo spell things out.
Kasi - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#333669) #
I would agree with what you said there China Fan. I find uo makes some really good points when he just keeps things straightforward. I was impressed with his point on recency bias he made in the game one thread in respect to Feldman.
uglyone - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#333670) #
I put their career stats in mlb and high minors, and their more recent performance. they're all very similar. not my fault.

I assume everyone is aware that bradley's stats are better this year, so why would I post them? I'm not sure why you'd think I think i could hide this year's stats.

Bradley was terrible for a long time, then had a great few months coinciding with some high babip, and has been terrible again for the last few months.

I don't know why we'd just look at his good months. And if we argue only his recent stats matter, then his moat recent stats are poor too.


He's 26 - not a baby. Heck, if he was a jay Kasi would be arguing that he'd soon be past his prime.

First Two Stints: 530pa, .276babip, .084iso, 50wrc+
2ndhalf 15/1sthalf 16: 599pa, .318babip, .251iso, 133wrc+
Second Half This Year: 292pa, .274babip, .179iso, 90wrc+

I don’t think Bradley is as bad as he looked his first 2 stints but I also don't think he can sustain near the babip or iso that led to that great stretch from the 2nd half of last year to the 1st half of this year. The 2nd half this year looks more like what I expected from him - babip a bit lower than average due to him being a big swinging flyball hitter without great speed, and solidly above average power but not the elite .250iso type power he was putting up in his hot streak.

The 2nd half this year also lines up just about perfectly with his career numbers too, which imo is no coincidence.

The good news is that Bogaerts and Bradley are both already arbitration eligible this year,and are going to get hefty raises based on likely unsustainable hot streaks.
Four Seamer - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#333671) #
Mike, maybe I'm misunderstanding your question but if between the end of the ALDS and the beginning of the ALCS the Jays were to determine that Travis would be unable to play over the course of the ALCS, couldn't they just leave him off the ALCS roster and preserve his World Series eligibility? Or can you only make changes to the 25 man roster from one series to another if the changes are due to injury?
Mike Green - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#333672) #
Maybe that's right, FS.
James W - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#333673) #
You can declare a new roster for each series. You are only restricted from using someone if you replace them DURING a series.
uglyone - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#333674) #
Liriano has been replaced by Barnes. concussion rule applies.
ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, October 08 2016 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#333675) #
1. I want to confirm that I only had a brief look at the fan in the NY cap at the ballpark who unleashed the virulent anti-woman diatribe (that I mentioned a couple of days ago) but I am pretty sure that it wasn't Donald Trump, although there were definite similarities in the manner of speaking.

The GOP has asked if they can DL Trump and call up Danny Barnes.
uglyone - Sunday, October 09 2016 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#333677) #
Man finishing today would really be huge - Osuna and Martin need some forced rest and i'd rather not play too many more games without travis and liriano available.
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