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Yesterday we presented our report card for the Toronto pitching staff, v2004. Today, to use a term loosely, we turn our attention to the hitters.




Dave Berg: C-
(GPA 1.53, High B+, Low F)

Craig: It wasn't Dave Berg's fault that he was asked to do something (start 26 games in left field) that he was absolutely unfit to do; that's a black mark on the organization, and Berg did very well for a non-outfielder. But Berg was also distinctly unimpressive as an infielder and failed to hit even at his customarily unimpressive level. No speed, no glove, no arm, no power, no patience.

Moffatt: The man deserves a high grade. Sure he didn't perform all that well, but if you were jerked around as much as he was this year (out of necessity, mind you), how well would you perform? It's as if you work told me: "We want you to teach economics on Tuesday and Wednesday. Thursday you've got secretarial duty. Friday you'll be working in the Tim Hortons. Saturday and Sunday you'll be giving tours to potential foreign MBA students. You do speak Mandarin right? On Monday you'll be testifying to the Senate on why higher education needs more funding. After driving the bus on Tuesday, you'll have three weeks where you can sit in your office and play Gameboy and watch the rest of us work. After that you'll be put back to work, but I can only give you 15 minutes notice on what you'll be doing". I don't think I could work in those conditions and I'm surprised Berg did as well as he did. It wasn't his fault he was given jobs he was ill suited for.



Kevin Cash: D-
(GPA 0.85, High C, Low F)

Lucas: Third-worst OBP in all of baseball among hitters with at least 162 PA. A .558 OPS wonít cut it, even as a caddy. Cash turns 27 in two months.

Moffatt: How does this man not get an F?



Frank Catalanotto: C+
(GPA 2.24, High B+, Low D+)

Dave: He's the same hitter he's always been: good when healthy, but gets hurt a lot. His stats dropped this year because he tried to play through a groin injury when he should have been sitting. His signing indicates that the Jays don't think that Gross can help them.

Craig: I love Frankie and I'm glad he's re-signed (though not with the terms) but he had a terrible year. He hit for no power, his ability to draw walks continued to deteriorate, and he wasn't able to play the field much so this grade is essentially as a DH. A good effort, but a D for results.



Howie Clark: D+
(GPA 1.24, High B, Low F)

Jordan: Yes, it was only 115 AB, but a .217/.292/.348 line with zero defensive value is just a black hole of a roster spot. Even 25th men need to be held to a certain standard.



Carlos Delgado: B
(GPA 3.06, High A, Low C)

Jonny: Delgadoís 2004 suffers by comparison to his 2003 and 2000 seasons. But setting aside those two monster seasons, or drawing a trend line through his career numbers, it becomes apparent that when itís all said and done 2004 was slightly disappointing but not horribly so.

Moffatt: The guy misses a whole whack of time and plays hurt while still on the active roster and still manages to hit 32 homeruns.

Jordan: April, 861 OPS. May, 657. June, DLíed. July, 774. Sure, his OPS was over 1000 from August 1 onwards, but so what? For more than half the season, Delgado provided little value to this team. Had I considered his salary, a C would have been generous.



Chris Gomez: B-
(GPA 2.73, High A, Low C)

Craig: Gomez provided exactly what was hoped for, getting on base a little bit and showing that he could still play shortstop. Defensively versatile and offensively competent, Gomez was a perfect utility infielder and justified his signing - especially by being one of the few guys to fight in every at-bat when things weren't going well.

GOMEZ HIT GRAND SLAM NOW.

Moffatt: I was probably grading more to expectations. At the same time, how much do we expect out of our utility infielders? If they were superstars, they wouldn't be utility players.



Gabe Gross: C
(GPA 2.14, High B, Low D+)

Mick: What is there to like about an OPS of .621? Maybe as a Yankee fan (think John Elway, Shea Morenz, Drew Henson), I just have a soft spot -- in my head? -- for former big-time college quarterbacks. My gut tells me Gross is going to be an All-Star. Keep in mind, I once vocally predicted Frank Pastore was "the next Tom Seaver."

Lucas: Upon further review, I graded him too harshly; itís unfair to give a D+ to a guy with only 150 big-league PAs. Still, a .209 average is disappointing.

Gerry: Gross does need to go back to AAA to learn to handle the outside pitch. 90% of the time he would foul the outside pitch off, or pop it up. If he can that figured out he will do OK.



Eric Hinske: D+
(GPA 1.43, High C, Low D-)

Gerry: Eric Hinske can hit, his swing is messed up. His defense was better. I did give him a C, probably for potential more than for his 2004 performance.

Pistol: Hinske was just plain awful. He ranked 149th out of 154 in all of baseball in OPS. The players below him are 3 SSs, and 2 light hitting CFs on bad teams (Redman, Podsednik, Eckstein, Cintron, and Counsell). While his errors were down a lot, and that was good, I'm still not convinced that his defense is at least average yet.

Moffatt: I think I was pretty generous here. I was one of those people J.P. was talking about when he talked about expectations being too high. The only thing that prevented him from leading the league in hitting into double plays was the fact he came up so often with the bases empty. Where did this trying to leg out infield hits stuff come from?



Orlando Hudson: B+
(GPA 3.46, High A, Low B)

Gerry: Orlando Hudson provided excellent defense but his OPS was .779. Baseball Prospectus, using VORP, ranks Hudson as 6th in the AL. He had a good season but his hitting is still only league average.

Jordan: I gave out no A's -- I don't think anyone on this 94-loss club merited one -- but if I had, it would've gone to this guy. I haven't seen the Win Share numbers, but I'll wager he contributed more to this team -- especially in the first four months -- than anyone else. FWIW, that was my grading system: contribution to the team's success as a whole, not in the context of their expectations, their roles, or their abilities.



Reed Johnson: C+
(GPA 2.34, High B+, Low D+)

Dave: Would be a perfect fourth outfielder: he can play all three outfield positions, can hit some, runs well, and bunts well. He doesn't have enough power or walks to play regularly, though, and he tends to run out of gas when given too many at-bats. Will likely do well as part of a Sparky/Cat platoon.

Moffatt: I'm not sure what I was thinking when I assigned this grade.

Lucas: A .317 OBP from the leadoff slot? If he didnít underperform, then somebody overrated him.



Frank Menechino: A-
(GPA 3.68, High A+, Low C)

Craig: If there is anything on earth not to like about this guy, someone should fill me in; a utility infielder, signed for the minimum, that hits .301/.400/.504 and was one of the few players with the backbone to not give in to opposing pitchers. Surprisingly solid in the field, incredibly reliable (one error all season!) and steady. A+ for effort and A+ for results.

Moffatt: Probably should have been an A+. What more do you want from your utility players?



Josh Phelps: D+
(GPA 1.28, High B, Low F)

Robert: The most disappointing development of the season by far. More disappointing than Hinske because I expected so much more out of Phelps due to his super minor league numbers.

I'm willing to wait and see how Crozier turns out, but the trade is not looking good. Even if Phelps mashed lefties for 4 years he'd have more than a little value to the team, so Crozier will have to prove himself to be a competent major leaguer for J.P. to come out even on that trade.

I'm fairly certain that Mike Barnett was not the right hitting coach for Josh Phelps. The task of the hitting coach is to fascilitate a young hitter's adjustment to the adjustments pitchers have made after initial exposure. To do that, you have to work on minimizing the flaws in the hitter's approach and swing - that, plainly, did not happen in Josh's case.

Phelps kept hitting the ball on the ground and hitting weak flyballs the other way, as the pitchers continued to pitch him away. He was never going to be a productive hitter doing that. Perhaps the organisation's purported fascination with cutting down on strikeouts hurt Josh.

Moffatt: F with a bullet. What happened to this guy? Why did he and Hinske turn into extreme groundball hitters? I'm not suggesting that anyone should have or deserved to lose their job over the failure for these guys to develop but I am surprised that no one did.

Craig B: Simply put, Josh Phelps has the potential to kill the Blue Jays for the next decade. But at a certain point, a guy has to find a fresh start with a new organization.



Alexis Rios: B
(GPA 3.04, High A, Low C+)

Mick: The guy hit .286, with a respectable though not awesome OPS of .720 ... he struck out a lot and knocked in just 28 runs in 426 AB. Defensively, people on the Da Box are now openly saying he flashed enough leather to adequately replace Vernon Wells after VW is traded, apparently for Teixeira, Blalock, Young and Cordero. In the few games I did see Rios on TV, I'll tell you what ... and forget about the rivalry of long ago, this is meant as a high compliment, and speaking of former college football stars -- Rios carries himself like a right-handed Kirk Gibson. I have to think Jays fans would be happy with that career arc.

Craig: Again, I don't think this is a bad grade. Rios looked very good in flashes, but the object is to win games, not sell jeans, and right now Rios is going to sell more jeans than he wins ballgames. He was very solid in right field, but he didn't hit enough to be a regular rightfielder and his September swoon hauled his grade back; he must develop more power, especially since he began striking out too much late in the year.

Moffatt: This grade was probably too high. Great arm, but 1 homerun in 426 AB does not cut it for any position, particularly corner outfielder. Like many other Jays he turned into a fairly extreme groundball hitter, so I wouldn't be surprised if his power doesn't develop until he's wearing someone else's uniform.

Gerry: In his outstanding year in 2003 his power was to right and right centre. This year he was pulling the ball more, hitting more ground balls. In 2005 will he find his power stroke to the opposite field?



Vernon Wells: B-
(GPA 2.62, High B+, Low C-)

Dave: Started slowly, and got hurt just as he was beginning to put it together. It took him a while to find the range when he returned. By September, he was back in form. His defense is wonderful, as you already know. Next year, he'll have to be The Man, and I think that he can do it.

Lucas: 2003 VORP was 71, 2004 VORP was 32. Lost 100 points of OPS. Thatís a long step backwards. Like Halladay, the grade depends on how much leeway he's given him for his injury.

Gerry: Will he ever learn to be less aggressive or do we have to live with the first pitch, high fastball, swing away, approach?



Chris Woodward: D
(GPA 0.95, High C, Low F)

Jordan: Handed the starting SS job for the second straight year, he lost it for the second straight year with a 630 OPS. Injuries and poor health hurt him, but he had his chances and just didn't produce. Adios.

Jonny: Having been at the SkyDome for the August 2002 game in which he launched 3 home runs, I held out hope longer than many that Woody could put it together and be a respectable shortstop, or at least a good utility infielder. After a 2004 in which he showed just very brief flashes of talent between copious amounts of injury, ineffectiveness, and bench, Iím ready to admit that the time has come for Woodward to move along. All the best, Chris!

Moffatt: Probably too harsh as he was jerked around a bit. That being said, he was given many opportunities and he never really took advantage of any of them. I hope he can get his career turned around in another organization.



Gregg Zaun: A-
(GPA 3.55, High A+, Low B-)

Mike D: When Greg Myers suffered a devastating injury on the Metrodome flubber, and with Kevin Cash floundering against major league pitching, Zaun was summoned from the scrap heap to big-league duty. It's really hard to say how anyone could've expected more from the unheralded switch-hitting veteran, as he provided patience at the plate and a sense of calm behind it. He connected with young pitchers and set an excellent clubhouse example by kicking his devastating alcohol addiction. Sure, Zaun was probably an average catcher in the grand scheme of things -- but average performance was more than the Jays could have reasonably anticipated from him, or from any of the available options after Myers went down.

Robert: Smart, patient hitter. The best I've seen in a generation at blocking the plate. A very good game caller and good at preventing wild pitches. Not much power, which is the only thing that prevents him from being a borderline all-star.

His hot start after Myers got hurt and Cash's bat failed to materialize earns him a high grade in my book.

Jordan: He hit .429 in May and never cracked .263 in any month thereafter. He was a fine off-season pickup for practically nothing, but let's not get carried away here: he still batted .269 with 6 HRs as the semi-regular catcher for a last-place club. The grade, frankly, is a little generous.

Moffatt: An absolutely fantastic pickup by Ricciardi. The catcher position could have been a black hole for the 2004 Jays after Myers went down, but instead Zaun made it one of the strengths of the team. I hope he's back next year.

Gerry: I agree with Jordan, we should not get our expectations too high.




2004 Blue Jays Final Grades - Hitters | 40 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 08:33 AM EST (#19170) #
These grades, of course, carry with them a great deal of subjectivity, plus the dubiousness of what they are measuring. Are they measured against expectations? Against potential? Against salary? Sounds like a lot of all of the above.

This is not meant to be a criticism. I recognize that these are meant to be conversation starters and not the final word.

That said, it appears that some of the high water marks are from Lake Wobegon, where everybody is above average.

Berg B+
Catalanotto B+
Cash C
Clark B
Gomez A
Gross B
Hinske C
Johnson B+
Woodward C

How is the Jays didn't win 100 games? ;)
_Moffatt - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 08:37 AM EST (#19171) #
That said, it appears that some of the high water marks are from Lake Wobegon, where everybody is above average.

That's just a reflection of the high level of variance among the graders. If you took the low end, there's a lot of D's and F's. I tended to grade the utility players higher than average but guys like Cash, Phelps, and a lot of the pitchers lower.
Pistol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 08:59 AM EST (#19172) #
Are they measured against expectations? Against potential? Against salary? Sounds like a lot of all of the above.

Mostly expectations for their role on the team. Obviously Menechino isn't better than Delgado for example.
_Jonny German - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 09:23 AM EST (#19173) #
To be clear, about 12 members of the roster graded each player. While Moffatt gave Dave Berg a B+ to keep things smooth on the home front, I gave him a D for being a useless tool.
_Spicol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 10:07 AM EST (#19174) #
I obviously hadn't been ingesting the same chemicals some of you were when I rated Berg. Sure, we can be understanding about his playing out of position and chalk his so-so defensive performance up to that, but the fact remains that the guy did not (can not?) hit. Not at all. His line of 253/278/338 was 50 points of OBP and 35 points of SLG lower than his career average and is well below replacement level for 2004.

Dave Berg is the definition of suckage. I gave him a D+ (and might have been generous giving him that).
_the shadow - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 10:36 AM EST (#19175) #
With the inordinate number of ground balls by the team as a whole, plus the lack of power generally, I would like to hear what your grading of the hitting coach would be
Named For Hank - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 10:39 AM EST (#19176) #
That said, it appears that some of the high water marks are from Lake Wobegon, where everybody is above average.

My legendarily soft heart hates to grade anyone badly, which is why I didn't participate in the grading, in case anyone suspects that I was handing out the candy.

I mean, it was a bad, bad year for the team. And actually, it was pretty painful to think of the performance of individual players, so I didn't torture myself. Sure, there were some really bright spots...but not a lot of 'em.
_Ryan Day - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 10:51 AM EST (#19177) #
Isn't it, at least in part, Dave Berg's job to be "jerked around"? After all, he's not in the majors because he's an all-star calibre shortstop; he's in the majors because he can play a bunch of positions decently, fill in off the bench and hit a little bit. In 2002, when he had a pretty good season, he played 1st, 2nd, 3rd, SS, RF, LF & DH. I do find it frightening that he played more than half his games in the outfield this year, which benefitted absolutely no one at all.

The big problem with the 2004 Jays was not that they had Dave Berg; it was that they had Berg, Clarke, Gomez, Menechino and Woodward, who are all approximately the same player. Some are better than others, of course, but none are really the sort of player you want starting regularly in the infield, let alone outfield or first base. Once Gomez and Menechino established themselves, Clarke and Berg should have been replaced with a hitter or another outfielder.
_Blue in SK - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 10:52 AM EST (#19178) #
Wow, Gregg Zaun A- ... at least Berg was a utility man, Zaun was pretty much the everyday catcher and after a month long hot streak he played pretty much like the Gregg Zaun of old which is the guy nobody wanted on their roster at the beginning of the season. I agree that without him the Jays are a 100 loss team, but is he deserving of an A-? I question that.

One other point, Rios has pretty much been guaranteed a starting spot in RF, but at what point does his lack of power become an issue? 1 HR and 24 doubles in three quarters of a season doesn't bode well to me. Plus he never really had the power numbers in the minors. Baseball Cube indicates 20 HRs in over 2000 pa's in the minors and a minor league career SLG of .400. Everyone says he will grow into his man-strength, but unless he comes back to ST with 20 lbs of muscle, I have my doubts that he will ever display much power. Which presents a problem for a team built to pound the opposition into submission.
_Blue in SK - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 11:02 AM EST (#19179) #
shadow, I have myself questioned the effectiveness of Barnett for some time now. Many of our uber prospects and young ML'ers (Hinske, Phelps, Rios, Cash, Woody, Gross, etc...) have not exactly flourished under his tutelage. Actually, I'm not sure he has helped develop anyone as hoped. A case could be made for Wells - but I am not sure he has bought into Barnett's approach, as he tends not to work the count and wait for the perfect pitch to hit. Wells, flails away at anything that looks good to him.

Maybe it's Barnett's philosphical approach, maybe we have over estimated our talent, maybe the young guns just need more seasoning, more likely a combination of all.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 11:22 AM EST (#19180) #
One other point, Rios has pretty much been guaranteed a starting spot in RF, but at what point does his lack of power become an issue? 1 HR and 24 doubles in three quarters of a season doesn't bode well to me. Plus he never really had the power numbers in the minors. Baseball Cube indicates 20 HRs in over 2000 pa's in the minors and a minor league career SLG of .400

It's more complicated than that. Rios had not shown power until 2003. In 2003, playing in a tough park for right-handed hitters (Yale Field), he hit 11 homers in double A, quite a few of them being 450 foot shots to right-centre. He then hit a bunch of homers in the Eastern League playoffs, in the Olympic qualifying tournament for Puerto Rico and then in the Puerto Rican winter league (none of this shows up on the Baseball Cube).

I personally felt that he played too much ball in the winter of 03, and so I can't say that I was shocked that he started off very slowly in Syracuse in 2004, hitting .230 with a touch of power. He was called up regardless because the Jays had no options in the outfield when injuries struck Catalanotto and Wells. He had a defensive approach at the plate, as many Jay hitters did this year. For him, due to the circumstances of his callup, the defensive approach to hitting was quite understandable. I'm very confident that his power numbers will improve next year.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 11:38 AM EST (#19181) #
Just some of my thoughts:

Dave Berg: F-

This guy isn't good at anything, he can't hit, run, field, etc. Also I don't by that he was screwed around, he has always been a utility player, he loves every opportunity he gets regardless of the situation.

Kevin Cash: F

I never thought this kid would learn to hit in the majors, but this year his catching wasn't all that spectacular either.

Chris Gomez: D

He was exactly what we should have expected, a nice utility guy to have as a back-up. Because of starting players injuries he played a lot more than anyone expected and didn't disappoint. However just because he played to expectations shouldn't mean that he gets a good grade, he is not a very good hitter and shouldn't have a grade close to Delgado's.

Gabe Gross: D

My gut also tells me he will be an all-star, I get the feeling he will become a hitter similar to Chipper Jones. However, he had very mediocre numbers in his first opportunity, while this shouldn't set off alarm bells about his future, I also don't think it should be rewarded with a good grade for 2004.

Eric Hinske: F+

I'm one of Hinske's harshest critics, however there were some positives, his fielding improved, as reported yesterday he was unlucky, and he could rebound and be a decent third baseman.

That being said, his hitting numbers in 2004 were the worst of any everyday third baseman and should get a grade representative of this.

Orlando Hudson: B+

Just can't say enough about his defense this season, if he was just a little more consistent at the plate he would have got an A. I expect him to be an A player in 2005.

Reed Johnson: D

If grades were based on hustle, hard work, attitude, etc., he would have got an A. Unfortunately he is a below average hitting outfielder that should be a back-up (4th outfielder)

Frank Menechino: A-

Just a great acquisition! Did an unbelievable job! Would just love it if he could continue to play this well.

Alexis Rios: C

I expect him to be a perennial A player for years to come, however because of the one home run this, he's not there yet.

Chris Woodward: F

This is the guy everyone roots for, he just fit into Toronto so well. Unfortunately he didn't do anything well this season.

Gregg Zaun: B-

With J.P.'s talents at finding great catching for next to nothing, it makes you wonder why bother wasting time on guys like Kevin Cash.
_Spicol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 12:05 PM EST (#19182) #
Looking over the Roster's final grades, the average Blue Jay rated as a C.

Scott Lucas was the harshest among us, handing out an average grade of D+. Robert and Gwyn were the kindest scorers, both handing out an average of C+.
_Jonathan - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 12:05 PM EST (#19183) #
What further hurts with regards to Phelps is that he (in limited at-bats) seemed to get back on track in Cleveland. There's something wrong in the Jays' organization when hitters consistently regress (Hinske, Wells, Woodward, Phelps, Johnson).
_Geoff - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 12:37 PM EST (#19184) #
My rankings - based soley on how they met expectations - and based on a scale where a team that meets but doesnt exceed expectations would have an average grade of B

Opening Day 2004 Lineup (from memory)
1. Reed Johnson D
2. Frank Catalanatto C
3. Wells B-
4. Delgado C
5. Phelps F
6. Hinske D-
7. O-Dog A-
8. Woodward F
9. Cash F

Bench

Myers - No grade
Gomez - B+
Berg - C
Hermansen - No grade

Added during the year

Clark - D
Gross - C-
Menechino - A
Rios - B-
Zaun - B+

Its tough to win when only one player in your opening day lineup meets what is expected of him
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 12:51 PM EST (#19185) #
What further hurts with regards to Phelps is that he (in limited at-bats) seemed to get back on track in Cleveland.

Small sample size aside, I think your statement is not actually true.

In Cleveland, Phelps was used almost exclusively in a platoon role (sorry, no L/R PA breakdown), where he continued to pummel LHP as he had been doing all year for Toronto. In Cleveland, he didn't face enough RHP to drive down his overall numbers.

His overall stats:
Tor 237/297/417
Cle 303/338/579 (mainly vs LHP)

His overall platoon splits:
vs LHP: 309/358/618 (164 PA)
vs RHP: 210/267/333 (236 PA)
Mike Green - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 01:02 PM EST (#19186) #
It's hard what to make of Phelps' difficulties against righthanders in 2004. In 2003, he hit pretty well against them (.239/.338/.462) and in 2002, he truly mashed against them (.315/.362/.593). These numbers are not suggestive of a platoon player. Something was wrong in 2004 with Phelps, but he was not alone among the hitters.
_Mick - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 01:23 PM EST (#19187) #
Spicol:
Looking over the Roster's final grades, the average Blue Jay rated as a C.

Geoff:
an average grade of B

DeMarco, I did the quick math, and your average grade was a solid "D" - 1.89 GPA. That is both harsh and pessimistic. As disappointing as the season was for Jays fans, a team made up of D-level players would not come anywhere near a 67-94 season (which, incidentally, was two or three games short of their Pythgorean, or performance-based results). A team of D-level players would be historically, 2003 Tigers-level, 1962 Mets-level bad, 1899 Cleveland Spiders-level bad, maybe.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 01:46 PM EST (#19188) #
DeMarco, I did the quick math, and your average grade was a solid "D" - 1.89 GPA. That is both harsh and pessimistic.

I didn't include every player, just those that I wanted to comment on. Those that I didn't include, I agreed with the comments and grades of the original report card:

Frank Catalanotto: C+
Howie Clark: D+
Carlos Delgado: B
Josh Phelps: D+
Vernon Wells: B-
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 01:50 PM EST (#19189) #
Also, this exercise was just on the Blue Jays hitting, which an overall 'D' grade is probably what they deserve. This is a team that went from the 2nd best offense in the AL to one of the worst (3rd worst, without accounting for the park factor).

I believe that the Jays pitching is what saved them from being an overall D.
_Mick - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 01:51 PM EST (#19190) #
That kicks the GPA up to 1.93 ...
_Caino - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 01:59 PM EST (#19191) #
What's GPA?

As a student, I feel obliged to offer my G.P.A. is 80... Not including an essay course in which I have a C minus. Figgin Symposium. Hunk-a-Junk that book is. I certainally prefer Play-do to Plato.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:05 PM EST (#19192) #
Figgin Symposium

You did a symposium on Chone Figgins?

A perfect GPA score is 4.0, I think you may be confusing this with average %.
Lucas - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:15 PM EST (#19193) #
http://rangers.scottlucas.com
Scott Lucas was the harshest among us, handing out an average grade of D+.

I'm Batter's Box's Designated Curmudgeon (DC).

But seriously, for what it's worth, here my thought process.

1) Toronto was generally perceived to be among the top 15 teams in baseball. Playoff-worthy? No, not with New York and Boston in the division. But, they were expected to be competitive and certainly capable of achieving a .500 record.

2) Instead, Toronto finished the season with fewer wins than all but four teams in baseball. They finished 12th in runs scored and 12th in ERA out of 14 teams in the AL. Since the strike-shortened 1981, they've had only one season with a lower winning percentage.

Toronto saw fit to fire their manager during the season. They traded former Baseball Prospectus cover boy Josh Phelps for Eric Crozier, who just made his big-league debut at age 26. Etc.

3) That, to me, is a pretty huge disappointment, and I graded accordingly. My grades speak nothing as to the future of the team. I expect Toronto to rebound next year, possibly having the kind of season in 2005 that most of us were expecting in 2004.

4) My differences with some of the other graders may also be a function of scaling. As Mick said previously: "A team of D-level players would be historically, 2003 Tigers-level, 1962 Mets-level bad, 1899 Cleveland Spiders-level bad." If these teams, among the ten worst in baseball history, aren't rated "F"s, then there is no such thing as an F, and the '98 Yankees rate a solid "A-."

5) I am a Jays fan, but not a die-hard fan, and I don't follow the team as closely as many roster members and posters. Much of my grading was statistics-based. Some of these players may have underperformed for reasons of which I'm unaware.
Lucas - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:18 PM EST (#19194) #
uh, here's my thought process.
_Geoff - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:26 PM EST (#19195) #
Mick, you seem to be using my statement to suggest I gave the Blue Jays an overall B grade - My actual average grade for the Jays hitters was a 1.88 GPA so C/C- - I merely said I was grading on a B scale - if someone had performed exactly as we whould expect they would (which no one did IMO) then I would have given them a B...I suspect many graded on a C scale so maybe, accounting for scale factors, I'm as harsh as anyone else

Bottom line - the Jays were well below average in terms of meeting expectations offensively
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:27 PM EST (#19196) #
I agree with your thought process. I guess we just may be harder markers than the rest of the people here (and I am a die-hard Jays fan).
_Mick - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:38 PM EST (#19197) #
If these teams, among the ten worst in baseball history, aren't rated "F"s

Of course they are. But generally speaking -- and your '98 NYY example is perfect -- in baseball circles, the sum of the part does not equal the whole. A team of solid B+ level players will usually be an A-level team. A team of D-level players will add up to an F-Troop, if you will.

Tangentially, I should note that when I was teaching at the college level, I had the perhaps deserved reputation as being one of the toughest graders around; I told student the first day "A C is an average grade. If you perform to expectations but no further, you will receive a C." So I find being in the position of grade-inflater here on Da Box unique and a little discomfiting.
Pistol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:44 PM EST (#19198) #
What's GPA?

Grade point average, where typically:

A = 4.0
B = 3.0
C = 2.0
D = 1.0
F = 0.0

+ and - typically add or subtract 0.3 to the letter grade.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:47 PM EST (#19199) #
I don't think you can value all the grades equally. I gave a lot of the Jays regular hitter decent marks (Delgado, Wells, Cattalanatto, Zaun, Hudson, Rios), therefore the poor grades for the back-up players and rookies really brought down the overall average.

That being said, I don't think an over D grade is unfair for a team who's offense was supposed to be their strength, and turned out to be their weakness.
Pistol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 02:54 PM EST (#19200) #
Zaun was pretty much the everyday catcher and after a month long hot streak he played pretty much like the Gregg Zaun of old which is the guy nobody wanted on their roster at the beginning of the season. I agree that without him the Jays are a 100 loss team, but is he deserving of an A-?

For the year he hit .269/.367/.393. You get a team full of .367 OBPs and you'll do alright. And this was a catcher picked up off the scrap heap for nothing with no real expecations.

And he had as many win shares as Halladay!?!
_Spicol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 03:43 PM EST (#19201) #
Mick: If you perform to expectations but no further, you will receive a C. So I find being in the position of grade-inflater here on Da Box unique and a little discomfiting.

Overall, Mick handed out a low-C grade, right in the middle of the Roster. Here's the whole list from lowest to highest grades given(I used the less-popular 13 point scale where A+=13, A=12, F=0 etc.) with score and corresponding letter grade:

D+
1) Lucas 4.73

C-
2) Jordan 5.03
3) Mike D 5.38
4) Dave Till 5.51
5) John Neary 5.68
6) Craig 5.81
7) Me 5.86
8) Pistol 5.97

C
9) Gerry 6.00
10) Coach 6.05
11) Mick 6.08 (Roster Avg = 6.08)
11) Thomas 6.08
13) Mike D 6.16
14) Leigh 6.38
15) Moffatt 6.43 (Western students sigh collectively)
16) Jonny 6.49
17) Ryan 6.76

C+
18) Gwyn 7.14
19) Robert 7.54
_Spicol - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 03:45 PM EST (#19202) #
So, in other words, I don't see how you inflated the Grades, Mick. You're cool like school.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 03:57 PM EST (#19203) #
Spicol, am I the #3 Mike D or the #13 Mike D? 13 was always lucky for me...
Mike D - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 04:11 PM EST (#19204) #
I thought my grades would be basically average, but I think I wound up being a tad harsh. Greenie, I think you're #13.
_Caino - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 04:24 PM EST (#19205) #
What's GPA?

"Grade point average, where typically:..."

Thanks, I probly should've know that one.
_Caino - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 04:29 PM EST (#19206) #
A perfect GPA score is 4.0, I think you may be confusing this with average %.

- Ya I was. I firgured the G.P.A. you guys were refering was a baseball term. And in a scholastic sense, G.P.A. simply meant avg. %.
Apparently I was wrong on both fronts. Call me the Axis Power of G.P.A.
_Ron - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 04:48 PM EST (#19207) #
A lot of Jays because of injuries were hitting out of place this season.

We all know this was the season from hell and look at this dandy of a line-up on June 23rd vs. the D-Rays

1. Menechino
2. Clark
3. Johnson
4. Hinske
5. Zaun
6. Hudson
7. Gomez
8. Rios
9. Berg

The middle of the order (3-5) finished with a combined 31 HR's.

And the whole batting order combined to finish with 62 HR's.
_Vernons Biggest - Thursday, November 04 2004 @ 11:18 PM EST (#19208) #
A also similiar lineup the next day scored 13 runs with hrs by hinske and dave berg. however, the common theme of this season was inconsistency by defence and offence, which explained the 19 runs the d-rays scored.
_Spicol - Friday, November 05 2004 @ 10:01 AM EST (#19209) #
Spicol, am I the #3 Mike D or the #13 Mike D? 13 was always lucky for me...

Sorry, Mike Green. You are the #3 Mike.

Mike Denyszyn is #13 and is more of a softie than he thought he was.
2004 Blue Jays Final Grades - Hitters | 40 comments | Create New Account
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