Koufax was good, but Grove was better.  Not that I expect Sandy to lose this.

I voted Grove too.  Tribal solidarity only carries you so far.

Again we could have a Peak Value (Koufax) vs Career Value (Spahn) argument, except Grove's peak is about as good as Koufax anyway and he managed to win 300 games which suggests his career wasn't all that short.

Although, I suppose Randy Johnson's peak is as impressive as Sandy's. And Steve Carlton won even more games than Grove...

Oh, give me Lefty.

For peaks...
ERA+ Over 200 (ie: wow! seasons)
Carlton -
Ford - 0 but had a 191 over 44 IP in his last season 176 his peak otherwise
Grove - 1 in 1931, 1 other at 190+
Hubbell - peak of 193 in '33
Johnson - 198 peak, 3 seasons in the 190's
Koufax - peak of 190 in his last season, just one other over 161
Plank - peaked at 153 in 1915
Spahn - peak of 188, just one other season over 130
Waddell - 179 peak, did it twice

So, 200 is a very, very hard standard (Clemens has done it 3 times and almost a 4th last year). I was quite surprised by how poor Koufax does in this measure given all his value is peak value. However, his stadium was ideal for him which helped a lot. This does make one appreciate Randy Johnson a heck of a lot more though.

Ooops, forgot to fill in Steve Carlton - 182 peak in his famous season (winning 27 games for a horrid team) with a 164 his #2 season.

I think, like Johnson and Pedro, Grove and Koufax had similar peaks 28-32 and 62-66 respectively.
Although you could say Koufax's was more impressive, the margin isn't much.

Add in the fact that Lefty had an even BETTER peak late in his career, from 1935-1939

Although if this selection is based on picking a Left-handed pitcher from any spot in their career, I think I'd have to go with Lefty Grove in 1931

Although honourable mention to a 22 year old Dutch Leonard in 1914.  19-5 in 224 innings with a 0.96 ERA, best ERA+ ever by a lefty.
I remember when I made my all-time Red Sox team in Baseball Stars when I was a kid I couldn't find many pitchers for them, so Dutch Leonard was their #2 guy behind Clemens

Koufax must've hired one of the best PR guys in the country...no offense, he clearly deserves a spot on the top ten list, but why #1? Put Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove in the early 60's and it's likely they're just as good, if not superior. Plus they pitched longer. I can see the argument for Pedro as a RHSP, who stands out far and above every other starting pitcher in history in terms of ERA+, but I just don't see Koufax at that level.

To compare peak conditions:

The league ERAs from 1963-1966 : 3.02 (!!), 3.25, 3.26, 3.28.

The league ERAs from 1930-1933 : 4.69, 4.51, 4.52, 4.28

The league ERAs from 1999-2002 : 4.43, 4.68, 4.58, 4.40

Oh well, it's all in fun anyway.

its precisely because koufax has pitched more recently than grove that he likely received more votes. granted the league era was low for koufax's time period, but many people remember his utter dominance, or at least have heard about from an older generation who grew up appreciating his value watching him up against the mighty yankees year after year.

can anyone hear really say they have any idea how good grove was? the stats from that era are all insane. the hitters, the pitchers...you simply cant look at those stats and accept them in the world of how we view todays stats.

i guess what i am trying to say is that if you voted for grove, why not vote for "other". check out babe ruth's stats. his era's are all insanely low. its just too tough for me, and probably many of the voters, to understand how good grove was. and that is why we went for someone we can relate to a little more, good old sandy.

When you're assessing peak performance of a pitcher, there are both quality and quantity aspects to it.  Koufax' peak in '63, '65 and '66 was so astounding because of both elements.  Randy Johnson was a little behind in terms of innings pitched (even account for the difference in eras) and Grove was quite a bit behind in that regard.  And one can't forget the playoff performances also.

Koufax voters can hold their head up high, as can Grove, Spahn and Johnson voters.

I think that criticism of pitching stats being muddled would make sense up until 1920 and would DEFINATELY be applied to 19th century pitchers
But Lefty Grove did not pitch in a screwy era as far as league averages go
the league ERA in Grove's time hovered between 4.20 to 4.80 or so where Koufax's leagues bounced from 3.00 to 3.60

Pitchers were used in a somewhat similar fashion as well...around 300 innings had a good chance to lead the league in both Koufax and Grove's time.

I think the statistics paint a fairly accurate picture in this case

Koufax must've hired one of the best PR guys in the country

He had one of the best PR guys in the history of everything, but he didn't have to hire him.  His name was Sandy Koufax.  The man radiated integrity, professionalism, and all the qualities of the true gentleman.

To argue against myself, and a bit for Koufax, ERA+ isn't a perfect cross-era measure. Notably, when league ERAs get very low, it becomes very difficult for a pitcher to lower their ERA as much relative to the league. There is a natural lower-end to the number of runs the best pitcher might be expected to give up, just due to bloops, bunts, choppers, and wind-blown flyballs; even the best pitcher won't give up nothing every time. The alltime ERA+ list is dominated by pitchers from the deadball era (pre-1920), and the current high scoring era (1994-present). Gibson (1968), Gooden (1985), and Grove (1931),  are the only top 20 ERA+ seasons between these eras.

I've been voting on career value in these polls for the most part, which still would exclude Koufax, but for peak value, he's probably closer than I give him credit for.