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A key misdecision helps the Jays snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Goat of the Game: John Gibbons.
 
Unsung Hero: Vicente Padilla went a strong 7 against the depleted Toronto lineup.
 
For the Jays: Shaun Marcum did a stellar job in his first Major League start, allowing just 3 baserunners over 5 innings and punching out 5.
 
Boxscore: Here.
 
Will The Real John Gibbons Please Stand Up:
 
I’ve been asked a couple times recently what I think of John Gibbons as a manager. My reply has been that last year I thought he did a really good job, particularly in terms of bullpen management, getting the most out of his staff – but this year I’m beginning to think it was the vice versa, that the pitchers were making the manager look good. His latest maneuver for which the logic escapes me came in the 8th inning last night: Justin Speier had struck out 2 and allowed 2 singles in throwing 11 pitches. The switch-hitting Mark Teixeira was due up, he of these splits in 2006:
 
Vs. L: .265 AVG, .324 OBP, .529 SLG (102 AB)
Vs. R: .277 AVG, .364 OBP, .434 SLG (267 AB)
 
Speier’s breakdown was like so:
 
Vs. L: .159 AVG, .260 OBP, .341 SLG (44 AB)
Vs. R: .258 AVG, .337 OBP, .441 SLG (93 AB)
 
And ready in the pen was Mr. Scott Schoeneweis, breaking it down thusly:
 
Vs. L: .242 AVG, .309 OBP, .274 SLG (62 AB)
Vs. R: .302 AVG, .373 OBP, .547 SLG (53 AB)
 
So the choice was Speier’s 601 OPS vs Teixeira’s 800 OPS, or Schoeneweis’ 920 OPS vs Teixeira’s 853 OPS. Gibbons chose 372 points of OPS to the bad in going to his LOOGY.
 
Was Speier tired? I think not, having thrown just 11 pitches. Was Speier not throwing well? I think not, having struck out two and one of the two singles he allowed being of the infield variety. Are the 2006 splits out of line with career norms for these players? They’re more extreme than normal, but the career trends also say that calling for SS was a horrible decision: Teixeira and Speier have shown little left/right split over their careers, while Schoeneweis has firmly established that he’s murder on lefties and meat for righties.
 
If anybody other than Gibbons thought it was a good idea to bring in Schoeneweis I’ll be very surprised, and I’d love to hear the reasoning.
 
Elsewhere: The Yankees and Mike Reilly got together to beat the Mariners 5-4 in Sir Fat Sidney’s pinstriped debut. The Red Sox could only score once against the Royals, but that was enough as Jons Lester & Papelbon combined on a 1-hit shutout.
 
Today: Casey Janssen toes the rubber for Toronto in the rubber game of this series, opposed by Kevin Millwood.
 
Rangers 5, Blue Jays 2 | 61 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Craig B - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#150925) #

Making purely statistical decisions based on small sample sizes make for bad decisions, though.  In hindsight I wouldn't have done it, because Speier's always so effective versus lefties with that splitter, or forkball, or whatever you want to call it.  But at the time I didn't think it was a bad decision.

Calling Gibbons the goat of the game is unfair if you don't give him equal credit when he makes the right move - but if he turns to the right pitcher in that situation, you'd give credit to the pitcher, not Gibbons.  I know Gibby shouldn't be asking SS to get righthanded hitters out, but his principal job was to retire Blalock and he didn't do it.

Chuck - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#150926) #
The decision to bring in Schoeneweis was absolutely indefensible. Gibbons continues to perplex with his two huge blind spots: Molina vs RHP and Schoeneweis vs RHB. Somebody needs to draw him a picture.
Maldoff - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#150927) #

I didn't think that the decision was SO terrible. I thought Speier was pitching well enough to leave him in, although the announce team seemed to think that Texeira was a weaker hitter from the right side.

That game made me sad, though.....

Chuck - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#150928) #
the announce team seemed to think that Texeira was a weaker hitter from the right side.

Rod Black and Pat Tabler. Anything more need be said?
Christopher - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#150929) #
I was also disappointed that Gibbons took Speier out, even though I knew it was coming after the second hit.

When Halladay, Burnett and Lilly are not starting, I feel like it's a bonus when the team has a chance to win.  Really tough to lose it for Marcum.

Jonny German - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 09:11 AM EDT (#150931) #

Making purely statistical decisions based on small sample sizes make for bad decisions, though. 

I don't dispute this as a general rule. But the numbers here are overwhelming, and I still haven't heard any basis for bringing in Schoeneweis, be it statistical or otherwise.

Leaving Speier in would have made sense, bringing in Ryan would have made sense, walking Teix and bringing on SS to face Blalock would have even made more sense than what Gibby did.

Calling Gibbons the goat of the game is unfair if you don't give him equal credit when he makes the right move

I don't know about "equal" credit, but I gave Gibbons all kinds of credit last year for the excellent bullpen. Like I said, I'm really starting to think it was the pitchers making him look good. And maybe he was benefitting from taking over from Carlos Tosca, whose obsessive Reliever Roulette made me want to throw things.

NDG - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#150932) #
My opinion is the same as Jonny's.  I was happy last year with Gibbon's bullpen management, especially after the pitching changitis that inflicted Buck Martinez.  Unfortunately this year Gibbons seems to have contracted the same disease.  Maybe they should disinfect the manager's office as well as the showers.

IMO, Schoneweis is not a good pitcher.  He should never be used to replace Speier or Frasor (whenver he's freed), unless those two are struggling badly.  Scho should only be used when lefties are coming up against Chulk or other righties that STRUGGLE against lefties.

Unfortunaely the use of Scho last night was not the only transgression by Gibbons.  The sixth inning use of Tallet to face the top of the order that bats S-R-R-S was not a good decision.  The pick-off of Matthews saved at least a run, but maybe more.  In a game this close Speier or even League would have been better choices (and there is no reason either could have gone two innings).

As others have already said, if it was necessary to remove Speier in the eigth, then it has to be for BJ.

fozzy - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#150934) #
I was very surprised that BJ wasn't brought in after Speier. Men on, one-run game, 4 outs to go - if that doesn't scream "high leverage save situation," then I don't know what does. Some of his bullpen choices have been rather interesting, to say the least.

It will be interesting to hear what Gibbons says in the rags today. Such is the life of a big league manager....

On the plus side, it was nice  to see the club finally give Marcum a shot to prove himself, and boy did he bring it last night. His change-up and slider were really biting, and for someone who throws 90 miles an hour, he was missing a lot of Rangers' bats.

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#150935) #
My two cents.  I hate serial relief changes.  After Tallet got out of the sixth, I would have made a call about who I wanted to go the seventh and most or all of the eighth, be it League or Speier.  Having chosen League (Speier would have been a fine choice too) and having him go through the 7th getting 3 ground balls, and with Barajas, Matthews, Kinsler and Young due up in the 8th, I'd have left League in for those 4 batters.  Ryan to come on, if necessary, to face Teixeira and Blalock, and to take the ninth. 

If the situation had been slightly different with League having gone the sixth and this part of the lineup coming up in the seventh, bringing on Schoeneweis to face Blalock and the Speier for the eighth and Ryan for the ninth would have been OK. 

I am not saying that this approach would have worked better than Gibbons', but at least, a 6 pitcher night might have been avoided. 

Craig B - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#150936) #

Yes, Mike, it might have.  It might also have avoided the five-run eighth.  At any rate, the advantage to leaving in the guy who's pitching well, is that he's pitching well.

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#150937) #
As one of Marcum's bigger boosters, I truly enjoyed the first 5 innings.  The Rangers hit several balls hard, but Marcum settled down nicely after the first inning jitters, and threw strikes and missed more than his share of bats.  He's walked 12 in 14 innings so far this season, but if they keep giving him the ball to start, I am pretty sure that his walk rate will be below league average by season's end. He will give up some homers, but with the walk rate down, they hopefully won't sting too much.
Dave Till - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#150942) #
Gibbons has become obsessed with getting the platoon pitching matchup, as Tosca was before him. This is a very bad thing. He (or J.P.) seems to give up on relief pitchers after a bad day or two - I can't think of many teams that would have sent Frasor out the second time, for example.

Repeated pitching changes mean that, eventually, you'll get the guy who is having a bad day.  And the bullpen burns out and becomes less effective.

Having said all that: yesterday's bullpen meltdown was at least partly bad luck. The Rangers scored their runs on six singles and a walk; nothing was hit really hard.

Yesterday, Marcum reminded me a lot of Pat Hentgen.

Jimbag - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#150943) #
"Black and Tabler, need I say more" - the only thing worse than watching the Jays lose is having to listen to Rod Black at the same time.

I wasn't aware of the splits, but it certainly looks like it wasn't the best move to bring in SS - but hindsight is always 20-20. I thought Ryan would come in after the first run scored, still would have been a save situation for him and only asking him for one more out. My guess is Gibbons didn't want to over-use him leading up to the Yankees series, as he'll likely see some action there. Though that does raise the question of whether or not you should be managing a series that doesn't start until Thursday on Tuesday, doesn't it?

Oh, well...Janssen is due for a win tonight.

Maldoff - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#150944) #

I have to agree with Dave Till in that we are all overlooking the fact that SS didn't really pitch all that poorly.  First, JohnnyMac had that "error" that led to Matthews infield single. Then the other hits were soft singles, with Texeira's being playable if they didn't put the shift on.

While it was a sad, sad ending to a great game, SS et al really didn't pitch horribly.

greenfrog - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#150945) #
Kudos to Marcum, who pitched a great five innings. Tallet and League also did a nice job. But this was a painful, demoralizing loss.

A couple of comments:

- I wondered about Gibbons' decision to take League out after one inning, but I think the decision is at least justifiable. League did get rocked by the big bats in the Seattle lineup (albeit on his second consecutive day of pitching), and Speier is a legit setup man.

- I thought Ryan should have been brought in after the second hit off Speier--or at least to face Blalock when we were down 2-1. BJ was rested and there were only four outs to go. This was the opportunity for the Rangers to tie or win it--the heart of their order up with two on in the 8th.

- For the most part, Gibbons does a good job of managing to his players' strengths. Sometimes you have to use guys you'd prefer to leave on the bench. Obviously, you can't skip League, Speier and the Loogy and go to Ryan every time. But occasionally Gibbons pulls his punches, instead of going for the KO. This time he needed BJ to slam the door.

zeppelinkm - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#150946) #
Jonnny: This is taken from JS_magloires post in the next most recent game thread

"But I can see why Gibbons made the decision - he was probably looking at batter vs. pitcher stats. Teixera has 3 at bats versus Speier, and 2 homeruns. Blalock is 0-3 against Speier. But against Schowenweis, Teixiera is 2 for 15 (with 1 homerun), and Blalock - the guy who delivered the game winning hit after the wild pitch is 2 for 13 against him."

Not saying I agree, but I think that does suggest something that might have been at least partially influencing Gibby's choice to bring Schowenweis in, instead of leaving Speier in.




MatO - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#150947) #

I don't think it was such a bad move to bring in Schoenweis.  His record against Texeira and Blalock was excellent.  Texeira hit a 92 hopper through the infield (you can see McDonald's disgust as the ball goes by) and Blalock was jammed but he got enough of it to knock it into CF.  Texas was due to get some luck after their recent struggles,  unfortunately it all came in the 8th last night.

NDG - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#150949) #
But I can see why Gibbons made the decision - he was probably looking at batter vs. pitcher stats. Teixera has 3 at bats versus Speier, and 2 homeruns. Blalock is 0-3 against Speier. But against Schowenweis, Teixiera is 2 for 15 (with 1 homerun), and Blalock - the guy who delivered the game winning hit after the wild pitch is 2 for 13 against him

This is exactly why I make the good pitcher/ bad pitcher comparo.  How much of those numbers were produced by the 6+ ERA Showenweis?  I'd bet there are quite a few batters in which Scho has better numbers than Ryan.  I bet the same is true for Chulk.  Should we pull BJ whenever one of these opportunities present themselves?

Splits are useful when comparing pitchers of roughly equal ability.  Managers seem to understand this with regards to starters and closers, but somehow go blind with respect to middle relievers.
Jordan - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#150959) #

What Gibbons -- what all managers -- need to understand better is that pitching changes should not be made unless there is a compelling reason to do so. I can only think of three such reasons:

1. The incumbent pitcher is tired (this is not the same thing as "reaching a pitch count") --  tired pitchers not only lose their effectiveness, they run a much greater risk of injury. This will rarely apply to relievers, of course.

2. The incumbent pitcher is getting ripped by the opposing batters -- he just doesn't have it, or he's tipping his pitches, or he's lost his composure, whatever. This doesn't include giving up two infield singles and a flare down the left-field line for two runs.

3. The team would gain a clear, tremendous, tactical advantage by making a specific change -- bringing in a southpaw who just destroys lefties to face a LH batter, or a reliever who simply owns the hitter on deck, or a sinkerballer looking for the double play, etc. It has to be a situation that demands (not just suggests) going with the alternative matchup.

I suppose you could add a fourth -- the game is on the line, so the team's best reliever (the closer) should come in. But these three principles should apply to all non-closer pitching changes, and a manager should run through all of them before springing out of the dugout.

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#150962) #
60-65 appearances with an average of 1.333 innings per appearance would be 80-86.7 innings.  Rollie Fingers threw much more than that, but it's true that the modern trend has for relievers like Eckersley and Rivera to pitch a little less.  Henke pitched this way for about 5 years (which fortuitously enough is the length of Ryan's contract), but was successful in his mid-late 30s with a smaller workload. 
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#150973) #

At this point I can't see any manager allowing a starting pitcher to throw 320 innings a season.

Fairly obvious conclusion. Only once since 1991 has a league leader even reached 270 IP, Randy Johnson at 271 2/3 in 1999. So just one of the last 32 league leaders has even come within 50 innings of that mark.

You get a knuckleballer on a hot streak with a pitching-poor team, maybe he gets within shouting distance, but even that seems unlikely.

 

Jordan - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#150976) #

If Gibbons and Ricciardi are concerned with over usage of Ryan then perhaps the answer may have been to bring him in to get the one critical out needed to finish the eigth inning. And then go to Chulk to finish up the game in the ninth.

An excellent idea -- the only problem with it is that it would never happen. Seriously: it's exactly what teams should do, but no manager would dare deprive his closer of the save. Someone at Primer said the other day -- I forget who -- that the save statistic has created more bad strategy than any other development in baseball, and I think that's exactly right.

Chuck - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#150979) #
It wasn't the first time Gibbons has pulled Speier in favour of SS with a lefty coming up

Strictly speaking, because Teixera is a switch-hitter, SS was brought in with a righty coming up. Had SS been brought in to face Blalock, and then yielded a hit, well, that would have at least been the right move with an unfortunate result. Bringing in SS to face a RHB was just asking for trouble.
Mike D - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#150980) #

An excellent idea

I'm afraid I don't agree.  Or at least, I don't reflexively agree.  I think it depends on which batter was up for BJ to get the "one critical out."  If the idea is to put him in to face Blalock and give Chulk a 2-1 lead into the ninth, I don't like that idea at all -- you would have to leave BJ in for the ninth.  Not to get him a save -- to win the game.

If the idea is to put him in to face Wilkerson to preserve a 3-2 deficit, then I absolutely agree.  They needed to maximize their chances of getting Wilkerson out.

Blessed with hindsight, we now know that the eighth inning was extremely high-leverage and the ninth inning was low-leverage.  But we didn't know that the ninth wouldn't be critical, especially when the Jays were still ahead.  The thing about sticking an Ace Reliever (I won't use the hopelessly bourgeois term of "closer") into a tight spot in the seventh or eighth with (a) a narrow lead and (b) plans to relieve him later in the game is that an even higher-leverage situation might arise in the ninth, one with little or no margin for error (depending on whether you're playing at home).

It's little comfort to have bucked the obviously silly save statistic when you face a high-leverage ninth-inning situation with your best reliever out of the game.  Especially considering the vast gulf in ability between Ryan and the rest of the 'pen.

Ron - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#150983) #
If anybody wants to read an in-depth look at closer usage, I suggest you pick up Baseball Between The Numbers by Baseball Prospectus.
Keith Woolner has a chapter called Are Teams Letting Their Closers Go To Waste.

It should come to no one's surprise here that while "closers" aren't exactly going to waste, they aren't being used in all the right high leverage siutations.

Let's see which manager has the balls to bring in their ace reliever in the 7th inning!


VBF - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#150984) #

Mike Wilner and Jeff Blair were on PTS a minute ago with some interesting notes:

  • Blair is suspicious that a transaction of some sort could come to fruition in the next 24 hours.
  • The Jays are focusing most, if not all of their attention on acquiring pitching at this point.
  • They are not interested in David Dellucci or acquiring another outfielder.
  • Tony LaCava thinks that more options will open up after this weekend.

 

Flex - Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#150987) #
I wonder if the talk of a deal is due to this piece about an angry Hillenbrand in the star.
Gerry - Thursday, July 20 2006 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#151059) #

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153345816560&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064

I know last night was a busy one at the RC but Geoff Baker thinks Hank Blalock hit the game winning home run.  The Star folks were too busy sharpening their knives to watch the game.

Rangers 5, Blue Jays 2 | 61 comments | Create New Account
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