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In his two-year career with the Blue Jays, he's 17-5, with an ERA comfortably in the low 4.00s. He has, at times, been the team's most reliable starter this year, at a fraction of the price of his rotation mates. So why not pencil in Josh Towers right now for the 4th spot in the Blue Jays rotation next year? Possibly because Josh, who takes the mound tonight as the Jays try to win this series against Boston, is actually pitching pretty close to the edge.

Consider these numbers:


Year IP H/IP BB/IP K/IP K/BB WHIP OppBA HR/IP
2003 64 1.04 0.10 0.65 6.00 1.15 .266 0.23
2004 88 1.19 0.19 0.44 2.29 1.39 .295 0.09
Total 320 1.18 0.14 0.40 3.61 1.33 .296 0.17


Judging from his 2004 and career totals, it appears that Towers' 2003 campaign was rather fluky in many respects: considerably fewer hits and walks and more strikeouts. Accordingly, you'd have figured that Towers shouldn't have been as effective this year: with all those baserunners and so few strikeouts, how is he staying afloat? The answer, remarkably enough, is that his HR-allowed rate has plummeted: he has surrendered round-trippers half as frequently this year as in the past. The traditional knock against Towers is that as a control pitcher who's always around the plate, he gives up too many long balls; this year, his ability to keep the ball in the park appears to be the only thing keeping him from a full-fledged implosion.

Is it reasonable to expect this HR trend to continue? If you think so, then Towers could be a fine investment for 30+ starts in 2005. But if you think his HR-allowed totals in 2004 are as fluky as were his 2003 totals in many other categories, then you might think twice about it.

Oh yeah, the game. Curt Schilling pitches for the BoSox, and the Blue Jays have given him fits this year: 0-2, 6.10 in three games. Chris Gomez gets a second consecutive start at shortstop, Alex Rios settles into the third spot in the batting order, and Vernon Wells sits out again, though he's currently expected to be back in the lineup on Friday against the Yankees.
Game 127: Faulty Towers? | 68 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Nigel - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#39476) #
The way I look at it, Towers is always going to give up his HR's. In almost 900 minor league innings he averaged slightly over 1HR/9Inn and in about 320 major league innings he's given up almost 1.6HR/9Inn. That's a pretty good body of evidence to suggest that he's gives up home runs. The Jays have been very strict about keeping his pitch counts down under 90 and they may have discovered that as he gets tired he gives up more homers, I'm not sure. If so, they may have found a way to keep the HR's down. Absent that, the bottom line is that with his HR problems he cannot walk anyone and I think must strikeout a few more people to have long term success. If he does that then I think he has a shot to be a decent 5th starter but it is a fine line he walks. What surprised me the most was that someone with a big ball park like Seattle didn't grab him when he was on waivers. I would have thought that he was a perfect fit for a team like that to grab, pay the minimum to for this season and maybe next, get good results from and then flip him to the unsuspecting for a nice shiny object.
_Skills - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#39477) #
Nice shiny object you say? Hmmm, maybe we can trade him for Neifi Perez.
_Jdog - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#39478) #
If I am the GM , I pencil in David Bush (who is way better than Dave Bush) as my fourth starter and if i bring Towers back he's my 5th. I think Bush has pitched well enough that that he is your 4th guy next year unless someone new is brought in.

That being said I wouldn't mind seeing towers back because i think he is a good 5th guy and a great insurance policy!
_Magpie - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#39479) #
I'm hearing the drum from my enclosed perch here but I can't see you guys. Up in 518 tonight?
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#39480) #
Maybe this is a sign of his positive development? I would definately bring him back, I mean he definately has been one of the better starters this year and with some more active bats he generally is very consistant.

He isn't exceptional, but you must admit he has been consistantly good for the Jays.

As long as he keeps the ball in the park, definately worth having back, but I would think he would be an ideal long releiver/mid-releiver with his ability to challange hitters and throw strikes.
Pistol - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#39481) #
With a strikeout rate as low as Towers' I think we might be watching his peak pitching ability right now.

If you could get anything for him I'd say trade him, but I don't know that there would be a big market for him. Perhaps you could get decent reliever like the Speier / Hendrickson trade.
Pistol - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#39482) #
Isn't it great to watch strong arms in the OF?
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#39483) #
Another OF assist for Rios, his eighth gunning down Minkywitch at second. Yowser.
_Loveshack - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#39484) #
I am liking our outfield defense.
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#39485) #
Oh yeah, count me as one of the skeptics having both Gross and Rios in the OF the rest of the way and maybe all of next. But these two guys combined with Wells and Johnson maybe the best outfield defense in the league next yr. What they perhaps lack offensively could be close to made up with the kind of defense we have seen the past 10 days or so. Gross might be one of the bravest left fielders in the league to boot.
Dave Till - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#39486) #
Yay, Alex!

I'm watching the TV broadcast, and I just want to say one thing: I've heard enough about psyillium fibre, thank you.
_Scott Levy - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#39487) #
Batista: 4.90 K/9, 1.19 K/BB, .753 OPS, 0.90 HR/9, 4.54 ERA
Towers: 3.99 K/9, 2.29 K/BB, .765 OPS, 0.82 HR/9, 4.30 ERA

Any way to turn Batista into FA Matt Clement in the off-season? No? I thought so.

(sigh)
_Nigel - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#39488) #
Like I said, I think you just have to live with the HR's he's going to give them up.
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#39489) #
Interesting discussion earlier in the thread re: the few homers Towers has given up this yr. But hey that was Manny that blasted that one out followed by Ortiz. These two are pretty much leading the AL. Go eay on Towers until Damon hits one out.
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#39490) #
Ok, who started this thread? Yeow! Cabrerra
_Scott Levy - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#39491) #
Damn, what are tonight's lotto numbers Gideon? He brings up Towers' HR rates, and Josh gives up three in an inning.
_Gwyn - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#39492) #
Jeff Francis has seven Ks through 4 innings in his first start.
_Loveshack - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#39493) #
I never thought Id say this but "Bring in Sean Douglass!"
_Gwyn - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#39494) #
I take full responsibility for Towers problems, I didn't bench him in the BBFL.
_Smack - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#39495) #
I remember a cbc documentary of Francis and Loewen months before the draft. I thought Loewen would be a superior pitcher simply because he was finishing HS, whereas Francis was doing well in UBC. I guess most other people thought the same on draft day. Francis looks real good now, and my only remorse is that he could have led Canada to the Gold medal in Athens. I bet we would have taken a long hard look at him if he had lasted past the 13th selection.
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#39496) #
Good job on jinxing Josh. ;)

Can't see the game today, but I see another double and another assist in the boxscore from Rios. Nice. :thumbsup:
_JayFan0912 - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#39497) #
When are you going to start the

Richard Griffin was wrong thread
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#39498) #
Jeepers, this Rios kid has a sweet swing. Another hit of the Shill.
_G.T. - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#39499) #
Looks like you guys jinxed Francis, too!
_Magpie - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#39500) #
Dave Mauer makes his Toronto debut
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#39501) #
Is that someone LEFT HANDED COMING OUT OF THE BULLPEN?!?! *blinks*
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#39502) #
Guess he wont be coming out of the 'pen anymore... sorry I jinxed that.
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#39503) #
Whoa.

Jerry just said that there will be over 50,000 people to both Saturday and Sunday's games.
_Gwyn - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#39504) #
Jerry just said that there will be over 50,000 people to both Saturday and Sunday's games.

crap, we know what that means.
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#39505) #
Do not post in this thread anymore unless you need something Jinxed.

We've already screwed over Maurer, Towers, and Francis.
_Scott Levy - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#39506) #
[i]Jerry just said that there will be over 50,000 people to both Saturday and Sunday's games.

crap, we know what that means.[/i]

10-0 losses?
_Scott Levy - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#39507) #
Wow, this game is ugly.
_James W - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#39508) #
Do not post in this thread anymore unless you need something Jinxed.

Johnny Damon
Manny Ramirez
David Ortiz
Pedro Martinez
Curt Schilling
Keith Foulke
Orlando Cabrera
Terry Francona

These works as long-term jinxes, right?
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#39509) #
When are you going to start the

Richard Griffin was wrong thread


Now thats funny. Just about spewed on the monitor.
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#39510) #
Here comes Terry Adams...
_Magpie - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#39511) #
Here comes Terry Adams...

And it was just like old times, wasn't it??
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#39512) #
Thankyou Terry Adams and thankyou Dave Berg.
_Scott Levy - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#39513) #
Ah, Terry Adams. Gotta love 'em.
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#39514) #
On the radio broadcast, Tom, Jerry and Mike were discussing JP's remark about Towers that out of 20 starts, you'll get 13 quality efforts and seven adventures. Is there anyway, statistically, to quantify this? Presumably, if this is the case, his stat line would be pretty mixed, and he'd end up looking fairly average, or even greatly below average, depending on just how 'adventurous' those 7 starts were. Is there some sort of performance metric that would indicate whether Towers or another pitcher were routinely average or below average, or were just erratic in terms of result?
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#39515) #
In other news, Francis was hit pretty hard tonight. I guess it was imperative the Rockies get the chance to look at him today, instead of five days from now, after having won a medal for Team Canada. The Olympics didn't do anything for Ben Sheets, after all.
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#39516) #
As per a caller:
The solution to what ails the Jays is more bunting!
_Tom in NY - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#39517) #
JP seems really down, on the radio tonight, you almost get the feeling that the Jays will never be able to compete with the high payroll teams.
_Lefty - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#39518) #
Can anyone provide a re-cap of the interesting comments Ricciardi made tonite.
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#39519) #
Why all the love for Ernie Whitt?
And I love Ernie Whitt! I just don't get why he should be the manager.
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#39520) #
Ernie Whitt won't be the manager next year, they'll consider putting him on the major league staff though.
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#39521) #
Caller asks what he uses to evaluate defence.

JP shocks me and says that he evaluates defence by watching games, not by reading stats sheets.
Then Wilner knocks Zone Rating and Range Factor. Probably because they say that Hinske isn't good, JP jumps in and defends Hinske.
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#39522) #
Purcey and Jackson should start next year in Dunedin
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#39523) #
More attacks on JP for not bunting. Wilner answers and JP stays silent.

Tells next caller not to worry about Rios' power.
Doesn't know about first base next year.
_Ron - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#39524) #
That caller is a moron .................

Bunt with the bases loaded and no outs ...... LOL
_Paul D - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#39525) #
Okay, that's it for tonight.

And I agree, JP did sound beat down.

Oh yeah, they encouraged people to come out and make noise, a caller was saying they need more of that. I was hoping Wilner would mention the Cheer Club.
_Ron - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#39526) #
In other news, Francis was hit pretty hard tonight. I guess it was imperative the Rockies get the chance to look at him today, instead of five days from now, after having won a medal for Team Canada. The Olympics didn't do anything for Ben Sheets, after all.

Francis didn't pitch as poorly as his ERA indicated. The 2 homere he gave up to Chipper accounted for 5 of his 6 runs. At one point he retired 10 in a row. He was blowing by hitters with his stuff while maintaing control. I got a chuckle because after each time Francis got a K you could hear his mom in the background screaming (small and dead crowd at Turner Field tonight.

Bright things are ahead for the UBC alum. His former teammates at UBC said he's the same guy now as he was at UBC. Few of his mates were thinking back to the old days when Francis was a scrwany kid fresh to UBC.
_greenfrog - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#39527) #
Wow, did JP ever sound dejected. One fan said he'll stick with the team no matter what, whether the Jays contend in 2005, 2006...or 2020. JP commented pretty curtly that he won't be around in 2020. Not that we would ever expect this, but it made it sound as though he's already thinking ahead--about his exit strategy.

The comments about Boston and NYY being teams that play well offensively (JP admiringly listed off a half dozen Boston players), and travel well (including the fact that there are loyal New Englander fans all over, including in California, who are willing to go see their team)--someone reading between the lines might just think JP would rather be the Boston GM at the moment.
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, August 25 2004 @ 11:24 PM EDT (#39528) #
Don't get me wrong, Ron, I think Francis has a very bright future, provided the thin air in Denver doesn't do him in first. I was just taking a shot at the Rockies, who as far as I can see have accomplished absolutely nothing for themselves by having him pitch tonight instead of sometime next week, after coming back from Athens. It would be nice if MLB showed a little more support for amateur baseball, even if it is of the international variety.
_Ron - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 12:11 AM EDT (#39529) #
Wow, did JP ever sound dejected. One fan said he'll stick with the team no matter what, whether the Jays contend in 2005, 2006...or 2020. JP commented pretty curtly that he won't be around in 2020. Not that we would ever expect this, but it made it sound as though he's already thinking ahead--about his exit strategy.

About 3 weeks ago JP was talking to a caller fed up with JP's long term plan and said he should be canned if it doesn't pan out soon and JP replied he would quit if the team wasn't contending by 2007.
_Smack - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#39530) #
He clearly meant, he would quit if he wasn't keeping his word and doing his job, meaning making the Jays condenders in 2007. So the anti-intelligence fans have something to hope for.
_Useless Tyler - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 01:28 AM EDT (#39531) #
If there's one good thing about this season, it's taught me to cherish the wins. When there are so few of them, I feel a lot better and get a lot more excited at them.

Too bad I'm never there when they happen.
Named For Hank - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 06:47 AM EDT (#39532) #
http://aaronreynolds.ca
I'm hearing the drum from my enclosed perch here but I can't see you guys. Up in 518 tonight?

Yep! And no internet access up there. ;)
Thomas - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#39533) #
Caller asks what he uses to evaluate defence.

JP shocks me and says that he evaluates defence by watching games, not by reading stats sheets.


That's an interesting response. Not that I expected JP to explain a complicated method on-air, but I figured he may have said something along the lines of that the Jays have their own way of looking at things. I'd be very suprised if JP used visual impressions to a large factor; maybe he's just saying that to avoid another mess.

If there's one good thing about this season, it's taught me to cherish the wins.

Amen. I'll never take another easy 7-2 win over the Royals for granted again.
robertdudek - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#39534) #
I think J.P. was being honest - that he and the Jays scouts use their eyes to asses defensive ability and performance.
_Kieran - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 08:20 AM EDT (#39535) #
Did anyone watch the game on TV?

Cabrera's HR landed one seat to my right, my best friend dropped it! It was a screaming liner and he had a beer in his other hand...

That's the closest I've come to catching a ball...

Just sharing.
Pistol - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 08:36 AM EDT (#39536) #
Is there some sort of performance metric that would indicate whether Towers or another pitcher were routinely average or below average, or were just erratic in terms of result?

If you took the game scores you could come up with an average and standard deviation of those scores.
_Paul D - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#39537) #
Well should JP be looking at range factor and zone rating?

And is Hinske actually any good?
Craig B - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 09:48 AM EDT (#39538) #
JP shocks me and says that he evaluates defence by watching games, not by reading stats sheets.

I would expect nothing less. We're talking about a man with an extensive scouting background and a good feel for a player's defensive abilities.

I'd be very suprised if JP used visual impressions to a large factor; maybe he's just saying that to avoid another mess.

I doubt that very much. JP is not a stats guy "by nature"; if he's a stats guy at all, it's because he's learned what good statistical analysis can bring to the table (and also what it can't). Defensive statistics bring rather less than other kinds.

The Jays would literally never have signed Chris Gomez if they believed wholeheartedly, or even half-heartedly, in defensive stats. Statistical measures indicated that he was crispy done at shortstop; in real life, it hasn't proved to be that way. I believe the Jays work on defense and have their own statistical methods for defensive evaluation; I am quite sure it doesn't drive personnel decisions where there is good non-statistical evidence.

is Hinske actually any good?

I think so, but I'm just one guy with one opinion. I mean, he's not really good, he's just sorta good. He has good points (getting to the "hot corner" smashes, keeping the ball in front of him) and bad points (anything to do with throwing), and recently he's been in a defensive slump as bad as his offensive one.
robertdudek - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#39539) #
I happen to think Gomez is a below average defensive shortstop at this point. He simply doesn't have the range that almost all other shortstops in the league have. But he has been fairly steady in the field. He was signed as a backup infielder who COULD play short; I don't think the Jays were necessarily looking for great defense from a player in a role like that.

If they had been looking for above average infield defense, they would have NEVER signed Dave Berg.
_earlweaverfan - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#39540) #
Re: all the discussion about Towers being a 5th starter next year. I think the real question is how we can sell Batista to another team. Nothing in his performance this year tells me that he is anything other than his 50/50 career record from past years.

When he came, there was so much chatter about how he didn't get the attention he deserved as the 3rd starter behind the D'backs aces. Somehow, with more of a chance to shine, he would blossom with the Jays. So much for that story.

He seems to have too many pitches, and not enough consistency with any of them.

So, we may admit this sooner or later, but we will be saying goodbye to him within the next 12 months, I am pretty sure.

As for JP leaving, I would be on balance unhappy, mostly because I think his staff have picked draft choices with the best of them. I also agree with some use of statistical baseball to manage a team. And any new manager would mean extending out another few years the expected turnaround.

It is in his choice of pitchers (within the proverbial limited budget) that I see his huge weakness. Of all the pitchers he has acquired, only Lilly and Frasor appear to be keepers, albeit of the decent rather than exceptional category. Hentgen, Batista, Ligtenburg, Sturtze, Adams, and on and on, they all turned out to be much less than JP thought they would be, when they got here.

He also does not seem to know how to find coaching at any level that can keep the team performing at their best, despite the injuries. Despite all the injury excuses, almost everyone is playing below their potential this year, when healthy.

My only hope is that JP knows how to get better as he gets more experience. Time will tell.
_Paul D - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#39541) #
Maybe trade Batista to Anaheim for a replacement first basemen?
_Ron - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#39542) #
Batista will be 34 next season and with that age usually comes a downward spiral in performance. He has already slipped this season from last season, which I think can be due to age.

Bstista this season has showed real poor command of the strike zone as he ranks near the top in BB in the Majors and pitches behind the count a lot. You don't want a pitcher like that when you play over 50 games vs. Red Sox, Yanks, and O's.

I have a hard time seeing another team touch his contract unless the Jays are willing to pick some of it up.
_Tom in NY - Thursday, August 26 2004 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#39543) #
Batista pitched well for a long part of the season, if I'm correct he has been dealing with some injuries lately (back?) that have affected his performance. If he can come back healthy next year he'll be a nice #3 starter. Wasn't it just a month ago his name was comming up in trade talks? Lets see what we get from him, its not like he's making $8M or something crazy like that.
Game 127: Faulty Towers? | 68 comments | Create New Account
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