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The sooner the worst left fielder in baseball is traded, the better. This little rant would have been completely unprintable last night, as my seatmates at the game will attest. I don't care what his OBP is, or what a "pure hitter" he is -- the man is absolutely incompetent in the outfield. Even the most scientific of analysts admits there are no precise defensive metrics, but guys like me and Yogi really can observe a lot by watching, so trust me -- to make up for the catchable balls he allows to drop for singles and his other boneheaded blunders, Stewart would have to hit like Barry Bonds to have any value.

In the first inning, men on first and third, he stupidly threw to third after a routine sac fly, handing the Red Sox an extra base. That runner, of course, came home to score the second run. In the critical eighth, with Mueller up and two men on, coach John Gibbons was frantically waving Shannon (who didn't bother to look) way over into the left-centre gap. Gibby finally had to get up on the top step of the dugout, at which point Stewart reluctantly shuffled a few steps to his left, then almost immediately, like he was tethered to "his" spot, shifted himself back. The increasingly frustrated coach persisted, getting more animated. Again, Stewart edged over, but it looked like he was drawn back involuntarily to his familiar, worn-out patch of turf. Fortunately, he remained close enough to make the catch when Mueller hit the ball precisely where Gibbons had been trying to position him.

When Stewart, who should have had the decisive Ramirez drive with no trouble, compounded his late jump and erratic route by getting in the way of Wells (like a superhero, Vernon had sprinted about 40 yards to save the day) I was livid. They didn't show a replay at the Dome, but it looked to me as if Wells, who would have easily made the catch, had to pull up to avoid a collision, and the ball actually hit Stewart, who had ducked, which is why it rolled along the warning track instead of bouncing. It was E-7 all the way; the original E-8 scoring was as incredible as the so-called left fielder's folly.

"The centre fielder has priority on that play," said Carlos Tosca in a masterpiece of diplomatic understatement. "It was just a miscommunication," added the politically-correct Wells. I don't have to protect poor Shannon's feelings, so I'm able to call his costly, brutal misplay exactly that.

The Hinske error was unfortunate, as was the latest Delgado baserunning misadventure, and Sturtze was terrible again, but when you toss in an 0-for-5, the blame for that devastating loss rests squarely on the shoulders of Stewart. I don't care what they get for him in a trade any more, just get him out of here!

It's not as if his absence would leave a hole in the lineup. Reed Johnson, whose latest bunt single was suitable for framing, can step right into the leadoff spot. Frankie Catalanotto, my favourite Jay not named Roy, is an enormous upgrade defensively in left. By the way, after Cat had singled once to each field, I predicted he would go deep -- his brilliant 5-for-5 seems overlooked in the disappointment of the latest bullpen/defence collapse. Most importantly, getting rid of the useless Stewart would get Josh Phelps and his power back into the lineup. It would even save money; shades of the Mondesi dump that allowed Josh to play last year, turning a lost season into something exciting.

You want numbers, instead of anecdotal "evidence" from an addled geezer? In games when the liability was mercifully on the shelf, the Jays went 16-6 -- they are 32-37 when forced to play a man short in the outfield by the presence of a $6 million albatross.

Straight up for Dustan Mohr (even for Dustin Moore) is fine with me. Being forced by the Dodgers to accept Andy Ashby in addition to a prospect? Just dandy. Since I would celebrate Stewart's release, whatever the Jays get in return is a bonus. I really don't care. Just do it now, J.P. -- please, please don't wait for the draft picks. I'll be watching on TV, but I have attended my last game until he's gone. The memory of him butchering that easy out into a "triple" is too painful. I get emotional at the ballpark, so for the sake of my blood pressure, I must avoid witnessing anything like that again.



Stewart Must Go | 72 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Craig B - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#98017) #
Coach, I really wish you would tell us what you really think of Stewart.
_DS - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#98018) #
Wow, Coach. I would hate to see what would have happened if he ran over your cat (no pun intended). Although I have to agree with you, the Jays definitely seem like a worse team with him in the lineup.
Craig B - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#98019) #
Also, you forgot his brutal jump on the ball Millar popped up into the outfield.

What am I saying, jump. Stewart didn't move until the ball hit the ground.
_the shadow - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#98020) #
Steve Simmons in the Sun, get rid of Stewart, trade Lidle, and keep Escobar for this year, reduces salary, and keeps the team competitive for this year
Pistol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#98021) #
Since I would celebrate Stewart's release, whatever the Jays get in return is a bonus. I really don't care. Just do it now, J.P. -- please, please don't wait for the draft picks.

Luckily the front office won't be making emotional decisions like this.

Stewart's not a good fielder, and if Johnson, F-Cat and Stewart are all playing at the same time Stewart should see the bulk of the DH'ing.

However, I think Wells is just as much to blame on Ramirez's fly ball in the 9th, if not more. He has to be adament about calling for the fly ball so that Stewart gets out of the way. Wells also flinched when he caught Stewart out of the corner of his eye.

And if we're going to be assigning blame for last night's game Hinske's error in the 8th was the biggest blow in my mind - it should have been an easy double play. Then he was punched out looking to end the game (I thought it was a ball too, but it was certainly close).

The bullpen's performance was also much more costly than Stewart as well. It's bad when the Red Sox announcers are noting how bad the bullpen is.
_Jim - TBG - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#98022) #
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
With Corey Patterson down for the year, and the Cubs just a game out in the Central, Chicago could be a good fit for Stewart. He's not my idea of a centre fielder, but next to Alou and Sosa, he'll look pretty competent out there.

The Cubs have pitching depth and they've just called up Trenidad Hubbard, so they might be desperate and ready to overspend. Get in there JP.
_Jay - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#98023) #
My idea for the perfect trade:

Stewart to LA
Beltre to CHC
Cruz to TOR

Each of the three players has been rumoured to be on the market. LA needs a hitter desparately. The Cubs are dying to get their hands on Beltre and I think we can all agree that Toronto is looking for another young stud pitcher who can step right in.

Money wise, LA only takes on an extra $2M if no other money changes hands. If anyone has a direct line to the Jay's front office, please pass this on to them.
_Elijah - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#98024) #
Last night was truly a brutal defensive game for Stewart. I too was screaming at my TV in the 1st and the 9th innings after those plays. Thanks for the insight on the positioning that we didn't get to see at home.

To be honest, I don't think the Jays' position should change their strategy in terms of being buyers or sellers. Reed Johnson may not be Shannon Stewart with the stick (then again, he may) but the Jays' defense was clearly superior with Johnson in RF and the Cat in LF. Phelps is rotting on the bench as Tosca feels pressured to play the still hot Johnson.

The Dodgers, with their less than anemic offense, seems like an ideal fit. I don't know if the Dodgers would part with Ashby right now - they're short on starters and prospects. They have very little to deal from. I'd welcome Paul Quantrill back although I don't know what his feelings would be to that.

I think Stewart will be one of those facing the cold reality of the economics of free agency next year and as Coach stated, I would take Dustan Mohr, Demi Moore or Ashton Kutcher in return. It becomes increasingly clear that Stewart may accept arbitration if the Jays gamble and go for draft pick compensation.
_pete_the_donkey - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#98025) #
I wonder if Stewart and Lidle could pry Cruz and one of either Zambrano or Clement from the Cubbies?
_the shadow - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#98026) #
and then there is the BP, aye there's the rub
Coach - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#98027) #
Luckily the front office won't be making emotional decisions like this.

Pistol, this is no knee-jerk reaction to one truly awful game; I've been singing the same tune for three years. Take away the singles (and extra bases) Stewart allows from his much-celebrated OBP, and he's grotesquely overpaid. The reason I am so exasperated is that he has superb athletic skills, but doesn't get any better. You could put the frozen corpse of Ted Williams out there and lose nothing, but Cat is available and Phelps' bat rots away...
_Best Mate - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#98028) #
Last night was the first chance I've had to watch the Jays close up, even though it required staying up until 3.30 am for the game's conclusion.

As a neutral observer, but long time follower of the various ESPN correspondents' pages, I feel moved to comment as follows - none of which is likely to stir up controversy:

1) How Phelps doesn't play is beyond me.

2) Stewart is a man with the proverbial sword of Damocles hanging over his head (please feel free to replace Shakespearism's with Greek mythology now) and plays like he's already waiting for his next gig. The problem with this is the theory that he needs to play to be showcased, when it's obvious his attitude sucks. No doubt the recriminations will start once he leaves.

3) The bullpen isn't as bad as some say - I think Tosca needs to take responsibility for the fact that his relief pitchers are low on confidence and their performance suffers because they are used in micro management gone mad.

4) David Justice shouldn't be let near a commentary booth ever again

I'm sure I can add more, but I'm off to catch up on some sleep
Dave Till - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#98029) #
I was surprised when Stewart threw to the wrong base in the first inning - that wasn't a very smart thing to do. He should know better than that. The TV broadcasters, to their credit, picked up on this.

I blame Stewart less for the ball up the gap. Of course, it is the center fielder's ball if he can get to it - but, until the center fielder calls the left fielder off, it's the left fielder's job to run as hard as he can towards the ball. Did Wells call Stewart off at any point in the proceedings, or was Wells himself unsure that he was going to get to the ball? Vernon did run an awful long way. Given that I don't recall many previous instances of miscommunication between them, I'd be willing to give Stewart the benefit of the doubt here (and assign some of the blame to Jeff Tam for giving up the rocket up the gap in the first place).

I don't think it's news to any of us here that Stewart isn't exactly a great outfielder. He seems to lack the ability to get a good jump on the ball, and he has a terrible arm. But he has made some legitimately good plays in the outfield, as he's fast enough to cover a fair bit of ground in the outfield. He's a better outfielder than Candy Maldonado was, for instance, and probably better than late-career George Bell. It's just unfortunate that he had his worst defensive game of the season on a night which may prove pivotal to the 2003 Jays' post-season chances.

Having said all that, I'd say that the Jays should trade Stewart for future help. He's going to be a free agent anyway, he'd fetch something useful in return, trading him won't open a hole, and the Jays have outfield prospects coming out of their ears.
Gerry - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#98030) #
Coach:

I believe the frozen corpse of Ted Williams is on the disabled list right now. You might want to consider these other options. I think all would be available:

Ben Grieve
Jeremy Giambi
Bubba Trammell
Terrence Long
Ellis Burks
Matt Lawton

When you look at the other teams, left field is pretty weak defensively in the AL. Stewart is probably middle of the pack. That is not to say that Catalanotto/Phelps would not be an upgrade.

BTW I don't think Cruz would be available for 70 games of Shannon Stewart. The Jays would have to sweeten that deal with with one of their prospects.

Speaking of prospects (nice segway there) Justin Arnold had a decent start at Syracuse last night and Dustin MacGowan was good at New Haven. I am sure Gideon will fill in the details.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#98031) #
http://economics.about.com
Nobody has mentioned this, but I'm *really* surprised that the ump would KO Hinske on a borderline call after he completely blew the 1-1 pitch. I mean, he must have know after the call that the pitch was nowhere near the strikezone. It happens to even the best of umps... you call a "Strike" then two seconds later your brain says "No, that was a ball you DUMMY!". I think what pissed Hinske off the most is that he was expecting the plate ump to "even out" the call and he didn't. I swear it looked like that ump had a plane to catch. That was simply awful.

Mike
_Mick - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#98032) #
I don't know what (perhaps local) channel you all saw the game on, but I flipped back and forth between Yankes/Tribe on ESPN-A and Jays/Sox on ESPN2.

The Deuce analysts went on and on (and on and on and on) about how it was Wells' fault, that he needed to be more adamant on the call, that he was a young guy perhaps deferring to the veteran, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

I just want to know this ...
How is it that two of the top four defensive CF in all of MLB -- Wells and Hunter -- come from the Dallas area while the hometown Rangers are playing Doug Glanville there only because Kevin Mench (in center field!) broke his wrist?
_Spicol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#98033) #
Coach...whoa...but I can't say you're wrong. Stewart was absolutely brutal last night and performed in stark contrast to Reed Johnson, who is quickly becoming my favorite player (that was a perfect push bunt).

But, no matter how poorly he plays, Stewart has to play full time in order to get maximum value in a trade. If he sits, he becomes a "part-time player", someone who JP doesn't need and can get rid of for next to nothing...or so other GMs will try to assert. It's the same reason why he doesn't DH. He loses value if he's perceived as just a DH. While the cost savings might be reason enough to get rid of him, the front office won't feel that way. They want either prospects now or the draft picks later and would probably risk arbitration to get them. This is in line with the long range plan and it can't be jeopardized.

From Pistol: However, I think Wells is just as much to blame on Ramirez's fly ball in the 9th, if not more.

No way. I could hear Wells calling for the ball from the 500-level. Stewart stuck around and got in the way.

From Jay: Stewart to LA, Beltre to CHC, Cruz to TOR

As Jim said, With Patterson out for the year and the Hernandez trade, I have to think the Cubs need an OF more than a 3B right now. I mean, they've been playing Tom Goodwin full time. Ugh. Stewart for Cruz straight up would work fine.
Pistol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#98034) #
Pistol, this is no knee-jerk reaction to one truly awful game; I've been singing the same tune for three years. Take away the singles (and extra bases) Stewart allows from his much-celebrated OBP, and he's grotesquely overpaid.

Maybe I don't remember correctly, but I certainly don't remember anyone in these parts saying that the Jays should have non-tendered Stewart and used the money on someone else (like they did with Cruz, which was highly praised).

There was discussion here about not settling since an arbitration 'win' would have saved the team another million or so (since a win seemed automatic), but even then he still would be getting $5.5 million.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#98035) #
http://economics.about.com
Maybe I don't remember correctly, but I certainly don't remember anyone in these parts saying that the Jays should have non-tendered Stewart and used the money on someone else (like they did with Cruz, which was highly praised).

Unlike Cruz, I think you could have gotten something for Stewart before the arbitration process. Who knows: JP might have shopped him and found not a whole lot to his liking, so he decided to hang onto him and wait to trade him at the deadline this year, or take the draftpicks.

Mike
_Jay - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#98036) #
Spicol...I agree with you that the Cubs need an outfielder more than a third baseman but the simple fact is they have been after Beltre for two years now. And as early as last weekend they had an upper-level scout watching the LA games just to inspects Beltre. If we could do the Stewart straight up...great, let's play but the other card to play there to get J Cruz is via LA and Beltre.

Either way, I'll take it. I'd love to have Cruz in Birdland (even if I did just trade him off my roto squad).
Gerry - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#98037) #
Nobody noticed my deliberate (?) error, Jason Arnold and Dustin McGowan are the correct names. Coach has me too emotional to concentrate.
Dave Till - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#98038) #
No way. I could hear Wells calling for the ball from the 500-level. Stewart stuck around and got in the way.

Thanks for the info. Stewart gets more of the blame for the ball dropping, then.
_Shane - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#98039) #
Occasionally Kent gives a lot of rope to certain players performance that I just don't think warrant it, but when Kent goes off, Man does he do it up right!

I'm no staunch Stewart supporter offensively or defensively, he's a heck of nice guy, been here a while through the bad times and all the blah blah, but who cares? The goal is to not offend people, it's to win, yes yes?

If the teams of the future are going to have Josh Phelps in them (as it looks like they are) he needs to be in the lineup as a every day player. Whatever he's going to develope into, you've got to continue finding that out now. So, since all of a sudden Reed Johnson is managment's little love child, Shannon Stewart's gotta go.

Mr. Phelps needs his AB's.
_Lurch - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#98040) #
Sucks to be Stu.
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#98041) #
"No way. I could hear Wells calling for the ball from the 500-level. Stewart stuck around and got in the way."

If this is true, then it's Wells' fault. He's the centrefielder. If he's calling for it, it means he thinks he can catch it. He would be fully justified bulldozing Stewart to catch the ball. There was no collision; Wells pulled up because Stewart was in the vicinity.

Vernon is my favourite current Blue Jay, but if the centrefielder calls for it he MUST catch it.
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#98042) #
Coach, I think, is suffering a litle bit from selective sampling.

Stewart isn't a good defensive outfielder, but he does make some nice plays and I doubt he hurts the team much on a 162-game basis - probably not more than 5-8 runs over the course of a season as compared to an average leftfielder (leftfield is manned by many poor outfielders). He's not a great hitter for a leftfielder, though.

With the emergence of Reed Johnson, there's no longer any reason to have Stewart on the team.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#98043) #
http://economics.about.com
If this is true, then it's Wells' fault. He's the centrefielder. If he's calling for it, it means he thinks he can catch it. He would be fully justified bulldozing Stewart to catch the ball. There was no collision; Wells pulled up because Stewart was in the vicinity.

Yeah, because there's nothing the Jays need more than to lose their centerfielder for a month with a broken wrist.

Wells made the right decision by getting out of the way. Risking losing one (or both) of your players to injury for a single out is foolish, no matter how big the out is. Stewart *never* should have been that close to Wells. When Wells calls for it, it's Stewart's job to get the heck out of the way. He *could* have caught it easily had Stewart not been there.

You don't call the ball just because you think you can catch it. You call it to get the other guys the heck out of the way. Just because a different player called it doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever the hell you want.

The only justification is that Stewart didn't hear Wells. I wasn't there, so I have no idea if he could.

Mike
_Duane Grassbaug - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#98044) #
Having sat through the last 7 innings of the 16 inning marathon between the Skychiefs and the Clippers(I totally missed seeing Claussen). I settled in to watch Arnold.....a nice little performance but nothing that jumped right out at you. He maintained a consistent top velocity of 89-90 throughout his 6 inning complete game, actually having 2 of his 3 or 4 total strikeouts in the 6th.(all out of memory--I don't have my scorebook with me). The one thing I really noticed is that he doesn't have that --what do you call it---one "out" pitch...he didn't finish guys off....twice he had John Rodriguez(who sucks) down 0-2 then gave up basehits to him after many foul balls....he did seem to be a guy who can be a very economical pitcher as he could do those under 10 pitch inning...I recall one 6 pitch inning in which he got 3 fly balls to center....so he doesnt seem to run up high pitch counts. I am not any sort of scout just a fan, but it seemed to me that maybe he went away from his 88-90mph fastball when he got 2 strikes on guys....seemed like most of his strikes came on the fastball....I only say this b/c on his first K of Henson he just blew 3 pitches by him then I don't think he struck anyone out until the 6th after he gave up the Home Run to Rodriguez and he seemed ticked and blew the last couple of guys away. I'll doulble check the scorebook to see how good my memory is....wow the Skychiefs hitting was well weak---hitting star of the day was Huckaby---need I say more....the lefty Grahamman just ate Simon Pond up....he hit into a double play in the first and he would have hit into at least 2 more if he hadn't have come up with 2 outs....3 ground balls to MI with a guy on first....it could have been really ugly. sorry for the length
_Shane - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#98045) #
Just a point of interest thing...

Hey, i'm not BaseballAmerica but, sometimes I don't think they "really" have the pulse of how some Major League teams are actually running themselves. Sure they've got lot's of inside information but...

Today, Yankee prospect lover, Josh Boyd, says that Kevin Youkilis, Freddy Sanchez, Brandon League, Chad Pleiness, and Eric Stephenson are available for the trade deadline stretch drive. I'm sure Eric Stephenson is 'cause he's terrible -- great pick Boyd.

In my opinion there is zero chance, betting money infact, that a Toronto trades any young pitcher with high upside (i.e. League & Pleiness) or that Boston trades OBP junkie Youkilis. What is it now 47 staight games reaching a base for him? Hillenbrand's finaly gone, and Mueller wasn't signed for a lifetime conract, who the hell do you think they have in mind to fill that slot a third, Hmmmmm?

For my two cents, for me today Baseball America, is a tad out of touch.
_Wildrose - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#98046) #
No doubt about it Stewart will be gone by August 1. His mediocre defence has been well documented but as Robert points out his offence in terms of his position is also at the replacement level. Despite Cerutti's constant assertions that Stewart "is the Jays best pure hitter", Stewart in terms of OPS ranks only 7th amongst LF qualifiers in the A.L. I think we have to temper our expectations in terms of what can be obtained in a trade.
_Shane - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#98047) #
"Wildrose" thanks for bringing that old Cerutti tag line in, it rumples my ass everytime he says that "pure hitter" liner? What does that actually mean, and who cares? I'll take nine Hinske's or nine Gross's, you can keep yer Shannon Stewarts and i'll take those boys/types. Nice guy though, nice guy.

Duane, thanks for the Jason Arnold observations and updates. Isn't it just the bomb when you've got people near the minor league towns who can see the games? Damm, I envy you SOB's.
Pistol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#98048) #
New Haven Ravens outfielder John-Ford Griffin has been added to the Eastern League All-Star team, taking the place of former teammate outfielder Gabe Gross. Gross was promoted to Triple-A Syracuse July 10.

Griffin, 23, is second in the Eastern League with 66 RBIs and has 12 homeruns. Griffin joins lefthander Dave Gassner, catcher Guillermo Quiroz, righthander Cam Reimers and outfielder Alexis Rios as the Ravens' representatives on the All-Star team. The game will be played on July 16 in New Britain.

Gross, 23, hit .319 in 84 games with New Haven. He also drew 52 walks, and reached base by hit or walk in 29 of his last 30 games. During that stretch he went 40-for-113 (.354) to raise his batting average 20 points. Entering this season, Gross was named the #9 prospect in the Toronto organization by Baseball America.


I'm glad to see Gross called up to Syracuse. After last year's first half slump it looks like he's back to performing the way it was expected when he was drafted.

I found it odd that Werth was called up to Toronto yesterday. With Johnson getting so much playing time it doesn't seem to make sense to call Werth up to sit him on the bench...again.
Gitz - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#98049) #
So Stewart is a weak-fielding, weak-throwing outfielder with middling power? He sounds like the perfect Oakland Athletic!

The trades suggested here are fun, but they are not likely to happen. Most likely Stewart will bring one or two Grade B prospects, at best. He's simply not that appealing -- certainly the Cubs aren't going to trade Carlos Zambrano for him -- no matter what John Cerutti and Peter Gammons say. I wouldn't be surprised if he's dealt, but I would be very surprised if he's dealt for someone we've heard of. Even an emotional Coach is spot on: Dustan Mohr, who is no superstar and not very sabermetrically-oriented, may be the best Toronto could hope for.

And it was Jeff Tam's fault last night. (Not really, but it's my duty to take the contrarian line, even if I'm surrounded mainly by contrarians.)
_Shane - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#98050) #
Gross needing to be promoted was as much about the Thompson trade as it was about acquiring Wasdin. That was pretty clear.
Craig B - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#98051) #
Baseball America, is a tad out of touch

My own sense of Baseball America, which is a great publication that I would love to subscribe to if they charged less than the full cover price, is that they will often take what a scout or farm director or someone says about the team as a face value of the front office position...

Hence the indication that Youkilis and League would be available. There may well be people who work for the respective teams that believe this, and it might even be true, but as you said, it doesn't seem like something those front offices would do.
_A - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#98052) #
Whoa, glad I never played LF for you Coach ;-)
_EddieZosky - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#98053) #
Don't know if this is reported elsewhere, or if this belongs here - but what's this crap Gammons is reporting about Scioscia telling our Roy to "stay home if he doesn't want to pitch".

I don't recall Roy being overly outspoken about this?
_Duane Grassbaug - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#98054) #
Well I was wondering why Keene was playing in the OF and Thompson and Werth didn't play in either game.....the Clippers still had both of them on Syracuse's roster.....I had also told my friends that Gross was needed very badly for that lineup....wow how little did I know. For what its worth I seen scouts from the Astros, Reds, and Rockies sitting around....I am not outgoing enough to go and bother them while they are doing their jobs, so I have no info...just an observation.....I guess I'll have to try and go to Friday's game now if Gross is going to be there.....oh yeah I had forgot to mention Pond is pretty bad in the field...and not to good on the basepaths as well.....
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#98055) #
Mike,

Stewart was out of the way - he went behind Wells. Wells flinched - it's clear from the replay. He should not have flinched. I blame Stewart for kicking the ball away, but Vernon should have made the catch easily. Stewart has to run for a ball like that - he can't just "stay away". If Stewart had stood away from the play and it turned out that Wells had badly misjudged where the ball would land, many would be lambasting Stewart for being lazy and not backing the play up.

We've seen countless numbers of outfielders come together and try to catch the same ball. We see outfielders leap over their teammates to avoid collisions. Very rarely is any outfielder seriously hurt in a collision with his teammate.

I'm not saying Wells WOULD have bulldozed Stewart, only that he should have done it if necessary. With the centrefielder calling for the ball, Stewart's job is to stay out of his way and back him up. For the most part, he did that - except he failed to make the catch and kicked the ball away.

So that means an outfielder should never dive for a ball, or crash into a wall because he might be injured? You can't play the game that way and expect to win. The chances of injury are fairly small on a play like this, and if you try to avoid all risk you're doing your team a disservice.
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#98056) #
I wouldn't say Stewart is a replacement level leftfielder offensively. Ranking middle of the pack is not replacement level (a term that's thrown around a bit too loosely in my opinion). His OBP - the more important part of OPS - is a greater share of his offensive value than it is for most LFs.

I still trade him for whatever he can bring.
_Edward Butcher - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#98057) #
Robert: "I'm not saying Wells WOULD have bulldozed Stewart, only that he should have done it if necessary." Your point was clear, and it's absurd. Wells and Stewart running into each other at full speed would have been ugly, and could have resulted in both being on the DL for who knows how long. There was no point in Wells risking all that for one out. The blame for the play lies with Stewart, who didn't peel out of the way -- not in the right direction, at any rate, since the ball actually seemed to hit him.

That said, I still blame the loss on Tosca. There's no way Jeff Tam should have been pitching in a 7-7 game with Acevedo and Service available in the bullpen. Hell, there's no way Sturtze should have been pitching in a 7-4 game with Acevedo and Service in the bullpen.

Also, all the talk about Juan Cruz is fine, but I don't believe for a second that the guy's only 24.
_Justin B. - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#98058) #
Just found this at ESPN:

Recalled pitcher Corey Thurman from Syracuse of the International League (AAA); purchased the contracts of pitchers John Wasdin and Dan Reichert from Syracuse; placed designated hitter Josh Phelps on the 15-day disabled list with lower back spasms; designated pitcher Doug Davis for assignment; sent pitcher Jeff Tam outright to Syracuse.

So who starts Friday, Thurman or Wasdin?
_Edward Butcher - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#98059) #
Hmmm. So has Phelps been injured the last month or so?
Gerry - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#98060) #
So to summarize the week:

Werth is recalled to sit on the bench instead of Phelps (DL)

Reichert is recalled for long (non) relief instead of Tam

Thurman and Wasdin will start instead of Davis and Hendrickson.

Hendrickson will be back after Thurman and Wasdin get their chance. If Thurman and Wasdin have good starts then Hendrickson may be in AAA for a while.
_DS - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#98061) #
I'm sure Phelps got back spasms from sitting on the bench too much.
_Spicol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#98062) #
Stewart has to run for a ball like that - he can't just "stay away".

No one is saying he should have stayed away or stood and watched. When Wells is screaming for the ball, the proper thing for Stewart to do is cut behind him a few feet or so to back up the play. It wasn't as if this was a line drive where there wasn't time for Stewart to move. The ball was hit well but had plenty of hang time but Stewart stayed too close and it clearly interfered with the play.

We've seen countless numbers of outfielders come together and try to catch the same ball. We see outfielders leap over their teammates to avoid collisions. Very rarely is any outfielder seriously hurt in a collision with his teammate.

That's not true at all. Plenty of guys get hurt every year running into each other. Hee Sop Choi got hurt running into Kerry Wood this year, and that's in the infield, not even running at full speed for 80 feet like Stewart and Wells were. Adam Kennedy got hurt early this season running into Tim Salmon and went on the DL. David Delucci was hurt running into Alex Cintron. There are more cases, and that's just this year.

So that means an outfielder should never dive for a ball, or crash into a wall because he might be injured?

Completely different situation. First, the ground or a wall are motionless and don't bring their own accelerating, opposing forces into the situation, making impact that much easier to absorb. Second, the ground or walls are flat. People are not. Heads run into shoulders or other heads, knees run into kidneys. It's a lot more dangerous.

Collisions will happen, and that's fine and to be expected, but to shrug them off and say the chances of injury are small isn't accurate.
_Spicol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#98063) #
Thanks Justin. HUUUGE news in my mind. Tammy Time is over.

In other transactional news, KY Jelly Roll (otherwise known as Kevin Young, formerly of the Pirates) was signed by Minnesota to a minor league deal.

What, they need more corner OF-1B-DH types? Wacky.
Dave Till - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#98064) #
Reichert is recalled for long (non) relief instead of Tam

I assume Reichert will only be around until Pete Walker is ready.

The rotation will then be Doc/Escobar/Lidle/Walker/one of Wasdin, Thurman, Hendrickson, I suppose.
_Dr B - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#98065) #
And while things are all doom and gloom about the latest bullpen meltdown, here's a little nugget of joy. Isn't it great how well Kershner has been pitching lately? He's been thrown into the fire twice in a row and come out smelling of roses. Will he continue? Who knows, but I hope that he'll be given a decent chance to prove himself this time around.

Oh, and on the Stewart debate: Don't forget that Reed Johnson has only had half a year of success, whereas Stewart has been consistently good (with the bat) for years. And as I have stated before, unless you get someone decent in return for Stew (and I think he is worth something) you might as well keep him. At worst you get a first round prospect. Therefore, whatever you get for Stew should be as good as a first round prospect. (Unless the Jays are really hard up for cash). Stewart is a very good player, he just isn't the great player he could have been.
_Dr B - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#98066) #
And while things are all doom and gloom about the latest bullpen meltdown, here's a little nugget of joy. Isn't it great how well Kershner has been pitching lately? He's been thrown into the fire twice in a row and come out smelling of roses. Will he continue? Who knows, but I hope that he'll be given a decent chance to prove himself this time around.

Oh, and on the Stewart debate: Don't forget that Reed Johnson has only had half a year of success, whereas Stewart has been consistently good (with the bat) for years. And as I have stated before, unless you get someone decent in return for Stew (and I think he is worth something) you might as well keep him. At worst you get a first round prospect. Therefore, whatever you get for Stew should be as good as a first round prospect. (Unless the Jays are really hard up for cash). Stewart is a very good player, he just isn't the great player he could have been.
_Lurch - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#98067) #
I'd like to see Kershner pitch against righties before really praising him.
Gitz - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#98068) #
The problem with not trading Stewart and taking the draft picks is that, in order to get said picks, the Jays will have to offer Stewart arbitration. The risk is that he'll accept, putting the Jays in the position of having an overpaid LF while simultaneously lacking funds to upgrade, for instance, the bullpen. I'm not talking about signing someone like Mike Remlinger to a three-year deal, mind you, but maybe investing a bit more than they paid for Jeff Tam, say to the tune of $1 million. Who would be available to fit that criteria? Good question. But I bet Keith Law could find someone.

I like Dan Reichert, despite his control problems in the minors. That is unlikely to improve in the majors, of course, but if it does, with his viscious sinking fastball Reichert has the stuff to be a high-leverage relief pitcher. I'm curious why the Jays haven't done to him what they did with Halladay: send him to low-A ball, overhaul his mechanics, and let it rip from there. Reichert has a world-class arm -- if you've never seen him pitch, you'll be astonished how much his ball moves -- so let's hope Toronto can work some magic with him.
_Dr B - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#98069) #
I'd like to see Kershner pitch against righties before really praising him.

Well, yes. But still you have to admit what he has done so far is nice, and I am looking for positives :-)

The problem with not trading Stewart and taking the draft picks is that, in order to get said picks, the Jays will have to offer Stewart arbitration.

Are you sure? I could be wrong, but I thought they got one pick anyway, even if they didn't? If you are right, then of course, trade him for what you can get.

Interesting what you say about Dan Reichert. Wasn't he a first round draft pick once?
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#98070) #
http://economics.about.com
No one is saying he should have stayed away or stood and watched. When Wells is screaming for the ball, the proper thing for Stewart to do is cut behind him a few feet or so to back up the play.

Not on a ball that close to the wall. Stewart should actually be well in front of the wall because the major risk on that play is the ball hitting the wall and bounding away somewhere.

That being said if it at all possible you don't want to be running into and out of someone's peripheral vision.

There's a huge difference between being in "back-up" position and being in the position to catch the ball. Stewart was clearly in the latter, somewhere he should not have been.

So that means an outfielder should never dive for a ball, or crash into a wall because he might be injured? You can't play the game that way and expect to win. The chances of injury are fairly small on a play like this, and if you try to avoid all risk you're doing your team a disservice.

No, there's a huge difference. When you dive or slide for the ball, you know the exact position of the ground, and it's velocity (namely zero). So you have a really, really good chance of making the play without hurting yourself.

When you're about to collide with another player, it's really difficult to know exactly where all his limbs are, how fast he's going, etc. It's practically impossible to watch another outfielder *and* the ball as well. If you try, you're going to take a lot of baseballs to the head.

I would imagine, play for play, your probability of getting injured in a collision (per collision) is about 30-50 times greater than you probability of getting injured sliding for a ball in the outfield (again, per slide/dive). It's not about avoiding risks at all costs. It's about avoiding stupid risks.

Mike
_Eric C - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#98071) #
Who would be available to fit that criteria? Good question. But I bet Keith Law could find someone.

If the Jays had taken the salaries of Doug Creek and Tam, they would have had enough to sign Kerry Lightenberg, who's closed before and had good numbers. Also Steve Reed was nontendered and he's had good numbers while pitching in Coors, he signed cheap I think ... there probably are more ...
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#98072) #
Edward Butcher,

No, no. Stewart would not be running full speed - he would be pulling up and (if necessary) diving to get out of the way. Wells would be running full speed and catching the ball. He is the CENTRE FIELDER. He is ultimately responsible for every ball he can get to.

Spicol,

There wouldn't have been a collision on this play no matter how hard Wells ran, as Stewart cut in behind him. Because Stewart was in the vicinity or in his "peripheral vision" is not an excuse for Wells to not catch the ball. Outfielders catch the ball with their teammates in very close proximity to them with regularity.

But still, if you want to play centrefield you have to risk the occasional collision. You have to. I can't see any point in debating that because I'm never going to come around to an alternate POV. If the outfielders are afraid of colliding and want to avoid that risk at all costs, then there are going to be a number of balls falling into the gap that should be caught because one or both outfielders are too tentative.

It was a tie game, leadoff hitter in the 9th, facing a division rival. You can't be worried about injury in that situation.

Do you really think Wells was thinking "I'm not going to go all out on this play because I might collide with Shannon and get hurt"?

I just don't see how any objective viewer can assign more blame for the ball falling in to Stewart than to Wells.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#98073) #
http://economics.about.com
Do you really think Wells was thinking "I'm not going to go all out on this play because I might collide with Shannon and get hurt"?

No, he was probably saw something in the corner of his eye and said, "What the hell?!? Why is Shannon trying to make the play?!?"

I just don't see how any objective viewer can assign more blame for the ball falling in to Stewart than to Wells.

You're in a very exclusive club. :)

How about this: Suppose Wells goes for the ball, hits Stewart, dislocates his hip and is out for the year. Is it still his fault?

Mike
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#98074) #
Mike,

How is he going to hit Stewart if Shannon is behind him? He was distracted by Stewart's presence there. Major league outfielders are supposed to catch the ball regardless of where their teammates are.

If Wells ever did get injured in a collision trying to catch the ball then, no, it's not his fault. If he is thecentrefielder, it would mean he was playing the game properly.

Have you ever seen two outfielders go for the same ball? It happens quite a lot. I'm sure it wasn't the first time another player appeared in Vernon's field of vision. Why are you trying to use that as an excuse for him not catching the ball?
_Spicol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#98075) #
I can't see any point in debating that because I'm never going to come around to an alternate POV. If the outfielders are afraid of colliding and want to avoid that risk at all costs, then there are going to be a number of balls falling into the gap that should be caught because one or both outfielders are too tentative.

You're mixing my posts with the posts of others. I don't feel outfielders should be tentative. I agree with you that collisions are going to happen and you have to play hard regardless. Where I disagreed with you was on your assertion that "very rarely is any outfielder seriously hurt in a collision with his teammate" because there you're either wrong or have a very liberal definition of 'rarely'. Outfielders get hurt all the time in that situation.

I just don't see how any objective viewer can assign more blame for the ball falling in to Stewart than to Wells.

Wells might have still made the catch but Stewart didn't make the conditions as ideal as he could have. If not for Stewart's poor positioning, it would have been a standard catch for Wells and the level of difficulty would have been much lower. How's that?
robertdudek - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#98076) #
Spicol,

I agree with your last post, except that the level of difficulty would have been a little lower. It would have been a lot lower if Stewart's glove had actually knocked into Wells'.
_Spicol - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#98077) #
I'm not talking about signing someone like Mike Remlinger to a three-year deal, mind you, but maybe investing a bit more than they paid for Jeff Tam, say to the tune of $1 million. Who would be available to fit that criteria? Good question. But I bet Keith Law could find someone.

Maybe, say, oh, I dunno...

Colter Bean?

He won't even cost close to $1M. The Yankees have little need for Bean, or at least don't seem to want to admit it. They do seem to need organizational filler at 1B and the OF though. They might bite at Shawn Fagan or Matt Logan or Simon Pond. As great a year as Pond is having, he's not really a top prospect.
_Jurgen - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#98078) #
The Jays won't get anything useful for Stewart. Like Jose Jr., he'll finish the year with Toronto, and seek employment elsewhere--at the very most they'll get some magic beans or something in return (what did they get for Mondesi?).

Think about it: if you're all so eager to get rid of him, why should anybody else be eager to get him?

If Stewart could play a passable CF and/or could still steal 30+ bases, I think he'd be a hot commodity. Few clubs need another creaky LF/DH type, and his high OBP won't mean much to most GMs without those sexy SBs. I think the seemingly playoff bound Royals are the Jays best bet, possibly in a 3-way deal involving Beltran to another club. Baird might be nervous to pick up the phone from J.P., but I think it could work out in both club's interests: Stewart to KC, Beltran to CHC, Farnsworth to TOR? (Tucker would replace Beltran in CF for the Royals.)
_Jurgen - Thursday, July 10 2003 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#98079) #
I suggested Farnsworth a) because the Cubs' aren't idiots and aren't going to give up Cruz, b) because Farnsworth is a really good bullpen arm, and the club needs that almost more than another starter, and c) because I thought Farnsworth was making about $2 M.

Turns out he's only making $600 K. So the Jays would probably have to content themself with Veres ($2 M) or even Alfonseca ($4 M).
Gitz - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#98080) #
I'd rather have Farnsworth than Cruz, because, as someone said earlier, he's most likely not his listed age. More importantly, he's got a very violent delivery which screams a burgeoning injury.

This is all sound and fury, anyhow, because Stewart won't even fetch as much as Farnsworth.
_Jurgen - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 12:43 AM EDT (#98081) #
Gitz:

Clearly, I agree. Stewart won't fetch Farnsworth--or even Veres or Alfonseca. But Beltran might, and in a three way deal KC would get a good bat for their playoff run in return.
Gitz - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 02:48 AM EDT (#98082) #
... and in a three-way deal KC would get a good bat for their playoff run in return.

While giving up a far better bat and defender in the process. I don't see how the Royals can win any trade involving Beltran, unless the players heading their way go by the name of Bonds and Pujols.
_Jurgen - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 03:23 AM EDT (#98083) #
KC has made it better clear they don't want to confront Beltran in arbitration this off-season.

But now that they've become the de facto favourites to win the Central, I think they've got to get at least one MLB ready player in return. Baird must be realising that he's not going to get a Blalock or Teixeira anymore. And getting Stewart wouldn't hurt the KC offence too much (less so than that Damon for Beltran deal ESPN is talking about). Stew's career OPS is almost identical to Beltran's (.815 to .811), and it's possible that Shannon might even start running again under Pena.

If Toronto trades Stewart and a hitting prospect (preferably not Russ Adams, but Allard needs IF) to KC, and KC then trades Beltran to Chicago, Chicago could send Farnsworth and even Cruz to Toronto. (Chicago might even be convinced to send Kelton or Hill to KC instead of dealing Cruz to Toronto to spare the Jays' farm system, but personally I'd rather have the extra pitching.)

This is win-win-win.

Even if Toronto can only get Farnsworth, it's much much more than they could possibly expect for trading Stewart directly. And heck, if there's concern about Cruz's delivery, the Jays could always overhaul his mechanics like the A's did with Lilly. (Look how well that turned out.)

KC takes a very slight hit in the 2003 team (mostly in defence from having to move Tucker to CF and rely on Stewart, Ibanez, and Guiel on the corners), but also improves their farm system.

And Chicago gets that premium bat and glove they desperately need, at a much lower price than if they tried to deal with KC directly.
_Jurgen - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 03:29 AM EDT (#98084) #
KC's obviously in a similar boat as the Jays: they're not supposed to be this good this soon.

So, in any deal involving Beltran, at the very least they need to be looking at not hurting in the present, and helping in the future. Getting Stewart and a prospect does exactly that.

And even if KC maybe comes off a little worse than Toronto and Chicago, it's not as if Baird isn't already accustomed to losing trades.
_benum - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 04:59 AM EDT (#98085) #
Sorry Dudek, you're in the minority on the non-catch.

Stewart pealed away at THE LAST SECOND and went to the right of Wells (in his peripheral vision) just as Wells was trying to track a ball to his left. Stewart should have stopped much earlier given that:

A) He's always been a Pu$#%y when it comes to going to the wall

AND

B) Wells has great range

Stewart has got to be the most ackward outfieder who actually has tools (speed, glove) that I've ever seen. I think we actually over-rate his defense based on the shoe-string or at the wall catches he makes due to his horrible jumps but good speed.
_Spicol - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 08:18 AM EDT (#98086) #
Think about it: if you're all so eager to get rid of him, why should anybody else be eager to get him?

We on BB may be so eager to get rid of him but he still holds some value. To the traditional GM, he's a 4-tool player, a .300 batter, a professional hitter, a prototypical lead-off guy, a guy who could still steal 30 if his team saw the value in a steal.

I don't believe in all of the above myself so don't cut and paste and debate those points with me. But those could be the perception of the traditional GM. It's up to JP to convince another team that he is great, and relatively cheap compared to a Mondesi.
robertdudek - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#98087) #
benum,

Nothing you wrote absolves Wells of the primary blame. The centrefielder can't be detered by a bumblimg left fielder.
Craig B - Friday, July 11 2003 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#98088) #
Robert, you're right in saying that Wells shouldn't be put off by a bumbling left fielder (great descriptor for Shannon). But, as I think we all would acknowledge, he's going to be put off by it, because he doesn't want to go crashing into his teammate and he knows that it's a likely occurrence, precisely because of the bumbling... and as Mike said, once he sees/feels Shannon still coming, pure instinct takes over.

With some more experience, hopefully Wells won't make that "mistake", and control his instincts - or at least force them to only take over at the last possible instant. Wells "should" have caught the ball anyway, and Stewart should have acknowledged Wells calling him off and "backed up", but in the particular circumstances expecting that play to get made by Wells is unrealistic.
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