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As I mentioned in another thread I was looking at the Current Equivalent Averages page at Baseball Prospectus and I was stunned to find that Frank Menechino is leading the Blue Jays in "Runs Above Replacement Player". I decided to look closer at the stats provided to see what else I could learn about the Jays woeful 2004 offense.

I decided to examine two statistics. The first RAP stands for "Runs Above Position" that shows how many runs a player has produced over the average hitter at his position. The second RARP or "Runs Above Replacement Position" shows how many runs a player has produced over a replacement level player at his position.

Baseball Prospectus compares players at the position they've played the most at this year to determine RAP and RARP. I decided to sort the Jays by position to see how they've performed. Since some players such as Dave Berg have played at many positions this year please take these figures with a grain of salt. Without comment, here are your 2004 Toronto Blue Jays:

Player POSN PA RAP RARP
Zaun C 288 7.5 15.5
Estale' C 17 0.1 0.5
Cash C 172 -10.1 -4.7
TOTAL 477 -2.5 11.3

Delgado 1B 347 -4.4 8.8

Menech' 2B 201 13.1 18.7
Hudson 2B 349 1.1 11.9
TOTAL 550 14.2 30.6

Hinske 3B 455 -15.1 1.1

Gomez SS 313 -5.9 4.0
Woody SS 167 -7.7 -2.0
TOTAL 480 -13.6 2.0

Rios RF 273 -6.6 3.4
Reed RF 449 -15.3 1.3
Howie RF 128 -8.1 -3.0
TOTAL 850 -30.0 1.7

Wells CF 403 4.6 18.0

Cat LF 246 -3.2 5.8
Gross LF 14 -0.2 0.3
Herman' LF 7 -1.5 -1.1
Berg LF 144 -10.1 -4.3
TOTAL 411 -15.0 0.7

Myers DH 20 -1.0 -0.3
Phelps DH 320 -15.3 -2.3
Pond DH 55 -6.0 -3.7
TOTAL 395 -22.3 -6.3


To better see where the Jays are weak with the stick, here are the totals for each position:

POSN PA RAP RARP
2B 550 14.2 30.6
CF 403 4.6 18.0
C 477 -2.5 11.3
1B 347 -4.4 8.8
SS 480 -13.6 2.0
RF 850 -30.0 1.7
3B 455 -15.1 1.1
LF 411 -15.0 0.7
DH 395 -22.3 -6.3
TOTAL 4368 -84.1 67.9

If the Jays had average hitters at each position, they would have scored an extra 84 runs this season and won an extra 8 or 9 games.

There's a few things that jumped out at me here. This is by no means an exhaustive list, so I'd like to hear what you spotted:


  1. The Jays are getting killed at the corners and DH: Five of the bottom six of the Jays positions are what we'd normally consider power positions. Keep in mind that RAP and RARP rank players relative to other players at the same position, but we can still see that DH, the corner outfield spots, and third base are weak offensive points for the Jays.

  2. What ever happened to Eric Hinske? Eric has shown big platoon splits in the past, but is hitting lefties and righties equally badly this season. Is there a way to get Hinske back on track or to get more production at the third base position? Would playing Menechino at third against tough lefties be a good idea?

  3. Do the Jays really need a shortstop? Getting a "name player" at short has been one of the wishes of Bauxites for the past couple of months. However, batting wise, short isn't their weakest position, and the Jays do have a couple of good middle infielders in the minors. Would the money be better spent on a big bat or two?


What are these stats telling you?
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_Loveshack - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#41478) #
Ok since I am not all that familiar with these stats, someone want to explain to me what the difference is between the "average player" and a "replacement player" in RAP and RARP.

Would I be correct in assuming that "average player" in RAP takes the current stats from all the rest of the players at that position in MLB from this season and straight out averages them? If so then what is "replacement player"?
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#41479) #
Would I be correct in assuming that "average player" in RAP takes the current stats from all the rest of the players at that position in MLB from this season and straight out averages them?

Someone like Robert probably has a better idea than I do, but I believe that's approximately how they do it.

If so then what is "replacement player"?

Roughly speaking it's the value you'd expect from a player you plucked off of waivers or called up from AAA. As far as how they calculate it, I think it's some percentage of the average. So a "replacement level" shortstop would produce 75% of the runs of an average shortstop.

Someone who is more familiar with Clay's work can probably give you a better answer, but that's the shorthand version.
Pistol - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#41480) #
Would I be correct in assuming that "average player" in RAP takes the current stats from all the rest of the players at that position in MLB from this season and straight out averages them?

That's the jist of it. The numbers are also adjusted for park effects.
Mike Green - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#41481) #
http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2613
COMN for Hinske's career offensive record. He's 27 and he's more than a year post-hamate surgery. The last 2 seasons have not been pretty, but they're not consistent with his rookie year or his minor league record. He was consistently a good hitter. He was also a good percentage base stealer until this year.

The bizarre part is that subjectively he's made significant strides on his defence. We'll wait for the end of year UZR and other defensive measures to get a reliable objective handle on the extent of his improvement. Nonetheless, you just can't live with this kind of hitting, if it continues, from your third baseman.

I approve of John Gibbons' approach to this. Stick him in the lineup every day (more or less) and see how he does. Judgments should wait until the end of the year.
_Nigel - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#41482) #
This list is interesting. What's even more instructive is to look at salaries of the players at the various positions. The Jays aren't paying anything other than replacement level wages at DH and RF. They are paying between $1.5 and $2 million for that production (and I use the term loosely) from SS and around $3 million for that production from LF. Thankfully, all of that can be wiped off the books next year if JP chooses. Where this gets really ugly is at 3rd. While he's only collecting $800k this year, Hinske is due for around $12-13 million over the next 3 years. That could be one ugly contract (taking almost 10% of the budget) over the next 3 years. A nightmare scenario that could easily happen is for Halladay's shoulder to be screwed up and Hiske to keep hitting this way and the Jays would have around $15million/year or around 30% of the budget flushed down the toiled for each of the next 3 years (I'm not saying its going to happen but you see how little room for error there is with the small budget teams).
_Loveshack - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#41483) #
The numbers are also adjusted for park effects.

Interesting you should mention that, it brings up another question that Ive been wondering. When someone says that stats are "adjusted for park effects", does that mean that (for example) you take Chris Woodward's total stats and apply the SkyDome park effect? Or do you actually break them down as to which AB's took place at which ballparks? Maybe park effect isnt significant enough to put that much work into it, Im just curious.

And yes, before anyone asks, I chose Chris Woodward because he's had less ABs this year at SkyDome (66) then not at SkyDome (95).
_Daryn - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#41484) #
Do the Jays really need a shortstop? Getting a "name player" at short has been one of the wishes of Bauxites for the past couple of months.

My theory about getting a Shortstop was to get a power hitting SS would make a huge difference... on the assumption that CAT was going to be a 1B or DH.

If you've got Hinske, Rios, Gross, Catalanotto and a Free Agent Bat in the power positions, then you are going to need some power from other slots.. CF is covered, then what...

Maybe we need to deal the CAT for a slugger too?
_R Billie - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#41485) #
Offensively, shortstop may not be a big position of need but defensively it's a big need. It would be different if the combination of Woodward and Gomez were producing some truly positive offensive numbers but they aren't. So the issue isn't that the Jays are getting bad offence from the position, it's that they are getting lacklustre or even poor defence at the position in exchange for very modest offensive production. There's a certain point at which offence is not worth the defensive hit. If the Jays were employing say John Valentin who would make a lot of errors but hit 25-30 homeruns with decent secondary numbers then you could live with it. Their current shortstops aren't close to being that kind of offensive plus so the defensive opportunity cost in Woodward and Gomez and probably Adams if he can't develop better arm strength is likely not worth it. If you're not going to get big offence then take the defence and I don't really agree that a bad pitching staff can't benefit from good defence. Mark Hendrickson has a 4.30 ERA as a starter for Tampa Bay because of the defence behind him.

Of course the corners are the biggest problems offensively. And the biggest reason for concern is that the Jays are tied to Hinske for $3 to $5 million over the next three years and if they cannot turn him around to at least his rookie season levels then he becomes somewhat of a burden making close to 10% of the current payroll in the final year of his deal. If he doesn't improve then the Jays are a bit hamstrung in what they can do with him unless they sell low. It's hard to say what they should do here.

It looks like the Jays are going to live with the growing pains of Rios and Gross but another veteran bat in that outfield mix would probably be a good idea. And they'll have to drop some cash on first base and DH as well.
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#41486) #
If you've got Hinske, Rios, Gross, Catalanotto and a Free Agent Bat in the power positions, then you are going to need some power from other slots.. CF is covered, then what...

A right-hand hitting DH for Cat, assuming the "free agent bat" is a 1B.

Maybe we need to deal the CAT for a slugger too?

Well, Cat is a free agent this year. You can't deal him, but you can choose not to sign him. I think the Jays will re-sign him.
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#41487) #
If the Jays were employing say John Valentin who would make a lot of errors but hit 25-30 homeruns with decent secondary numbers then you could live with it.

I assume you mean Jose Valentin of the White Sox.

I like Valentin, but there's a couple issues with signing him:

  1. He'll likely want/get a 2-3 year deal
  2. He turns 35 in October
  3. He's having a great year and will likely sign for more than the $5 mil/year he gets now


If the Jays had $80 million to play with, it'd be a no brainer (or some other "name" shortstop). But with a $50 million budget can you afford to pay a guy 6 million a year to play short? When there are so many other holes on the team and you've got 2 shortstops in the minors?

Or to rephrase the question: At what point would you say Valentin becomes too expensive for the Jays? Do you expect his value to fall to that point?
_Jacko - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#41488) #

  1. He'll likely want/get a 2-3 year deal
  2. He turns 35 in October
  3. He's having a great year and will likely sign for more than the $5 mil/year he gets now

Rebuttal:
  1. Because of his advanced age, I don't think any team will offer him more than 2 years.
  2. He's a flawed player. He strikes out a lot, has a low batting average, has platoon issues, and makes lots of errors. These factors will drive down his price.

Actually, his current season has been Batisterrific. Good power with a sub-300 OBP.

IMO, there's no way he's getting 5MM per season. I think 2 years, 7MM is what he'll end up signing for (or maybe 1 year, 4MM with an option for 2006). At that level, I think he's a good value. And signing him would allow Adams and Hill to get another year of experience at AAA (which I think they both need).
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#41489) #
Maybe. He does lead the majors in homeruns for a SS, which will inflate his price quite a bit. Also there's a bunch of big/medium market teams that will need a shortstop. Cubbies, Red Sox, White Sox, Cardinals Giants, Angels (where I think Valentin end up), Mariners, etc. Nomar, Renteria, and Cabrera only take up three of those spots and there's always a couple teams that come out of nowhere to sign a guy.

I'd consider 1 year at 3 million (despite his ghastly OBP), but I can't see him falling that far.
Craig B - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#41490) #
Hmm. All this talk of Valentin has given me an idea. I wonder if Chicago might non-tender Juan Uribe? Uribe is basically Jose Valentin with 10 years knocked off him and a touch less power, but he's a terrific player who might give good production (he's a terrific glove) for (relatively) little money.

I would assume that the Sox would want him back and work out a deal, but youneverknow. If he's available I'd hope the Jays would jump on him.
_Jacko - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#41491) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hernajo01.shtml
Take a look at what happened to Jose Hernandez after his big money long term deal expired in 2002. COMN. Scroll to the bottom of the page for salary info.

Valentin's a better player, but their profile is similar.
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#41492) #
Valentin's a better player, but their profile is similar.

I don't doubt that it could happen, but like I mention above, there are a lot of teams needing shortstops and there's only 3 big ones available (unless I'm missing someone). There may end up being only 2 if Steinbrenner does something weird and signs one of them as a 2Ber.

Hmm. All this talk of Valentin has given me an idea. I wonder if Chicago might non-tender Juan Uribe?

I suppose it's possible. You think they'd offer him arbitration (how much could he possibly get $1.5m?), but if not, he'd be a great one to try and sign.
_Blue in SK - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#41493) #
I will never question again why Cash isn't playing more.

A question for the more informed, am I correct in guessing that the RAP and RARP are a counting stat whereby it is dependent on the number of ABs by a given player, so that a lower number of ABs would reduce the level of RAP and RARP?

For example, if Delgado because of injury, has less ABs than say a Ken Harvey (who leads all AL 1B with 409 ABs) would you not naturally assume that Harvey would greater RAP and RARP?

Obviously, performance or should I say production during the AB must figure into the equation, but if you don't have as many ABs you wouldn't have as much opportunity to perform and improve the RAP and RARP.
_Jacko - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#41494) #

Maybe. He does lead the majors in homeruns for a SS, which will inflate his price quite a bit. Also there's a bunch of big/medium market teams that will need a shortstop. Cubbies, Red Sox, White Sox, Cardinals Giants, Angels (where I think Valentin end up), Mariners, etc. Nomar, Renteria, and Cabrera only take up three of those spots and there's always a couple teams that come out of nowhere to sign a guy.

If the Angels decide to kick Eckstein to the curb, I think they'll give the SS job to Figgins.

I think it's going to be a case of musical shortstops. I'm not sure how much big money demand there will ultimately be. Seattle and the Giants are the only teams in the group you mentioned who are not going to kick a SS into the free agent market (and the Angels might use an in-house solution to satisfy their problem).
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#41495) #
A question for the more informed, am I correct in guessing that the RAP and RARP are a counting stat whereby it is dependent on the number of ABs by a given player, so that a lower number of ABs would reduce the level of RAP and RARP?

It is a counting stat, but keep in mind that it can go negative (particularly RAP), so you'd expect a replacement level player like Howie Clark to get a lower RAP as he plays more, not a higher one.

For example, if Delgado because of injury, has less ABs than say a Ken Harvey (who leads all AL 1B with 409 ABs) would you not naturally assume that Harvey would greater RAP and RARP?

For RAP, you wouldn't expect that at all, since half the league is going to have a negative RAP that gets lower than more he plays.

For RARP then playing time becomes more of an issue. For the record, Harvey has a -9.0 RAP and a 7.7 RARP both of which are lower than what Delgado has.
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#41496) #
I think it's going to be a case of musical shortstops. I'm not sure how much big money demand there will ultimately be. Seattle and the Giants are the only teams in the group you mentioned who are not going to kick a SS into the free agent market (and the Angels might use an in-house solution to satisfy their problem).

It's quite possible.

We should have a contest: Guess who will be the opening day SS for all 30 teams next season. I'll start it (in a new thread) sometime this week.
_Blue in SK - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#41497) #
Speaking of SS, I think the Jays should go after Julio Lugo. The Rays plan to move him to 2nd base to accomodate some guy named Upton, so we could probably entice them with a prospect and Kevin Cash.
_Blue in SK - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#41498) #
Thanks Mike,

I guess if you have above average players you need to have below average players, hence the negative RAP.

As for Harvey, I wasn't advocating for him. Just happened to choose him because he was at the top of the AB list. Interesting comparison as it turns out.
_Wunderbat - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#41499) #
Valentin as an Angel makes a lot of sense, but that caught me off guard because I didn't realize they would be looking for a SS in the offseason. What is becoming of Eckstein? He might be an interesting fit here in Toronto as a cheaper SS possibility. He's that dirt-bag type player JP likes, he's got a good glove, he doesn't walk much but he doesn't strike out much either. Admittedly there is no power, but money saved on him could go elsewhere to supply the power. Of course I have no idea as to his contract situation. Could someone clarify this for me?
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#41500) #
I guess if you have above average players you need to have below average players, hence the negative RAP.

Yep. As a bonus, here's the worst RAPs in MLB at each position:


C Jason Phillips NYM -14.5
1B Randall Simon PIT -20.3
2B Geoff Blum TBD -19.4
3B Tony Batista MON -20.3
SS Orlando Cabrera MON/BOS -28.6 (ouch!)
LF Geoff Jenkins MIL -17.5
CF Luis Matos BAL -19.7
RF Juan Encarnacion LAD/FLA -20.3
P Brad Penny FLA/LAD -4.7
DH Robert Fick TBD -19.0


No wonder the Rays are considering moving Lugo to second!

The worst Jays have been Josh Phelps at -15.7, Reed Johnson at -15.2, and Eric Hinske at -15.9. Berg has put up a -10.1 in only 144 PA while Cash has put up a -10.2 in only 172 PA.

It looks like Chuck is right: Reed really shouldn't be starting against righties if at all possible.
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#41501) #
Valentin as an Angel makes a lot of sense, but that caught me off guard because I didn't realize they would be looking for a SS in the offseason. What is becoming of Eckstein?

I have a feeling (just a hunch) that the Angels will non-tender him next year and he'll be a free-agent. He's making 2.15M this year and will probably get even more in arbitration. The Angels are better off saving the money and trying to sign a guy like Nomar. Their new owner has the money for it.

Eckstein might make a pretty good 2B, but his triple and quadruple pumps on throws scares me a little.
_sef - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#41502) #
of course, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Russ Adams hadn't turned out to be so terribly, terribly underwhelming, especially relative to his draft position.
Thomas - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#41503) #
Man, DePodesta is so dumb. Who trades for the worst hitting pitcher around? Geez. For a guy with sabermetric knowledge, you'd think he would have looked into that.
_Moffatt - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#41504) #
of course, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Russ Adams hadn't turned out to be so terribly, terribly underwhelming, especially relative to his draft position.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. How well do you expect a 14th overall pick in a very weak draft year to perform? I'd say he's only slightly underperformed what could be expected, which is unfortunate, because you need your draftpicks to greatly exceed the average if you're a small-market club.

14th Overall Picks 1980-2002


1980 - Tim Maki, P
1981 - Jim Winn, P
1982 - Ron Karkovice, C
1983 - Rich Stoll, P
1984 - John Marzano, C
1985 - Tommy Greene, P
1986 - Greg McMurtry, OF
1987 - Cris Carpenter, P (not the ex-Blue Jay)
1988 - Tino Martinez, 1B
1989 - Steve Hosey, OF
1990 - Todd Van Poppel, P
1991 - Cliff Floyd, 1B
1992 - Ron Villone, P
1993 - Derrek Lee, 1B
1994 - Jason Varitek, C
1995 - Reggie Taylor, OF
1996 - Dee Brown, OF
1997 - Brandon Larson, SS
1998 - Jeff Weaver, P
1999 - Ty Howington, P
2000 - Beau Hale, P
2001 - Jake Gautreau, IF
2002 - Russ Adams, SS

Some great players in there, but also a ton of guys who didn't make the majors or only had a cup of coffee in the bigs.
_Mylegacy - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#41505) #
http://www.immune26.tv
Wtih Delgado gone we've got one above average hitter for his position, Well in CF.

There are five power slots, the four corners and DH.

Gross is a 4 of 10
Rios will be a 7.5 of 10. till the power develops he's a 5.5 of 10
Hinske is... sigh
MR. NEWBOY (1st base)is probably a 5 of 10 if we're lucky
The DH, the CAT is a 7.5 of 10 on "AVE" and "OBP" but only a 3.5 of 10 on "SLG".

Except for Quiroz no help in the high minors. In 05 we watch Gross, Rios, et al mature or we just watch them age. Could be a long hot summer next year too. Lets pray for an El Nino and REMEMBER this: if we pick 4th or 5th in the DRAFT, that's not just 10 or so slots earlier in the FIRST ROUND but 10 or so slots earlier in all 50 rounds...that's gotta help some.
_Lefty - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#41506) #
Regarding the Angels middle infield, I think its almost certain one of Eckstein or Adam Kennedy won't be back next season. It will come down to what they decide to do with 3rd base. If Glaus re-signs then they have to find a place for Figgins to play. That would likely mean either Eckstein or Kennedy are cut loose or moved. I'm thinking its more likely to be Kennedy.

However, they could re-sign Glaus and keep their middle infield intact and rotate Figgins through the line-up similar to Balt. with Melvin Mora. Erstad seems to miss at least 30 games a yr., if Salmon is back he's likely to be a bit of a bench player. This leaves Devanon and Figgins to fill in where necessary. Not to forget they have two pretty good rookies to find playing time for in Kotchman and McPherson.

If I'm looking at any Angel it would be Glaus. Eckstien doesn't do anything significantly well enough to really much improve the Jays. Don't get me wrong, I like Eckstein but he's not going to excite anyone who might be thinking about buying a ticket. The T.O. pitchers might appreciate a bit him though.
_Lefty - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#41507) #
Is anyone paying for ESPN Insider, I see Crasnick has a story; Dazed and Confused: Blue Jays take step back

Does anyone have a thumbnail sketch of the columns content?

Has Crasnick been reading the battersboxes name that tune contest?
_R Billie - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#41508) #
I like Valentin, but there's a couple issues with signing him:

Yeah, I don't really expect that the Jays will land a big shortstop or that they necessarily even consider it one of the higher priorities. I think they should because a good defensive shortstop enhances the whole pitching staff in the long run.

I was really using Valentin as an example of the type of production I would except if the Jays were downplaying defence at short. If you have to spend around a million on a shortstop I would rather have one that can field than one that can hit because defence at that one position is just too important.

Renteria will surely be out of their price range but if the Jays had been able to spend their Delgado money on a big bat like Tejada at shortstop for the long term they'd be in a very good position.
_Sid Frenchman - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#41509) #
Mylegacy, are you sure that your data is accurate? If so, that's very disturbing.
_Blue in SK - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#41510) #
MyLegacy, is that a personal opinion on those players? Or are you drawing from a stat?

Just wondering.
_Rich - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#41511) #
I don't see Eckstein as a great defender, and I suspect he would be worse on turf. He has one of the weakest arms in the league.

The BP numbers help reinforce to me that neither Reed is just not a good enough hitter to play everyday.
_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 17 2004 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#41512) #
These are meaningful stats, hats off to Moffatt for putting this together.

Major conclusions: Reed, Hinske are not the big league players many assume them to be.

How is Rios' RAP only -6 but the RF position is -30. Hasn't Rios played the majority of games in RF this season?

Who wants to bet that JP jettisons Hinske and Woodward this offseason?
_Scott - Tuesday, August 17 2004 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#41513) #
I think a player like Reed could have devolped if he was on a good team as a four outfielder. Putting him in an everyday postion is something he just doesn't seem ready for. I think you could also remove Reed's name from this statement and put in half of our team.

The most important adjustment for next year is for everyone not to get thier hopes up. I fully expect it to be worst than this year.
robertdudek - Tuesday, August 17 2004 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#41514) #
Scott,

I've got 500 dollars that says the Jays will win more games next year than this year. Are you interested?
_Scott - Wednesday, August 18 2004 @ 07:32 AM EDT (#41515) #
I wouldn't take your money. You seem to care about the team, but I settle for you remembering that I said the team will be worst next year.
I hope I'm wrong. I hope there some grand plan to turn the team around. I hope they do have a 55-60 mil payroll. I don't believe any of it is going to happen.
Craig B - Wednesday, August 18 2004 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#41516) #
Yes, let's agree to disagree.
robertdudek - Wednesday, August 18 2004 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#41517) #
Scott,

You don't sound very confident about your assertion.
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