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The Phillies are in town for the weekend, but due to injury and scheduling Toronto only gets one of Philadelphia's big 3, Cliff Lee. Lee is winless in 10 starts despite ERAs and FIPs right around 3; though the Phillies offense really isn't that bad for the NL, it's no longer the juggernaut it once was. Philadelphia and Toronto are actually in pretty similar positions as we speak, albeit on differing sides of a curve. Toronto's been a game better, but both teams are hanging around just under .500, with positive run differentials, and yet both reside in the cellars of their tough respective divisions, 6.5 and 9 games out with lots of teams to catch. At some point in the next month both teams are going to have to decide whether they should go for it, whether they're going to just hold on, or whether to pack it in for the season. I say that both teams are at differing points in the curve because for Toronto this was supposed to be their first season on the cusp of something; they have a young team, plenty of talent in the minors, and look to be on the way up. The Phillies are the mirror image of this. This year or the next might be the last in which they can realistically hold things together. They're old, and in the offseason they're going to have to pay Cole Hamels $20 million a year, at least. Much of their young talent has been used up bringing players like Hunter Pence or Roy Halladay over, and these guys are only getting older.

So, what to do?


Well, I don't care quite as much about the Phillies - yes, they're getting Utley and Howard and Halladay back, but by that point they might be 14 games out. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves. No, it seems like a good time to look beyond this series for the Jays a bit. Toronto is, in all likelihood, not going to make the playoffs this year. Yes it's still early, but they're in a tough division, have lost a lot of their starting pitching, and probably aren't going to do anything to replace it.

We're right around the time when people start talking about which teams are going to be buyers, sellers or holders. From what I've seen, Toronto so far has been ending up in the "too soon to tell" column's, which I think is probably not the case. If anything, the Jays will probably be buyers and sellers. Due to the expanded playoffs and relative parity (only 4 teams are 10+ games out in their divisions, and the biggest division lead right now is 4), few teams are really out of it; overall it will likely be a slow trade season, at least to start. Probably not in Toronto though. Since the beginning of Alex Anthopoulos' tenure, the Jays have been about as active as any club in baseball, trading for Brandon Morrow, Brett Lawrie, Sergio Santos, Mike Napoli and subsequently Frank Francisco. They've also made in season trades each of the last two years, acquiring Yunel Escobar and then Colby Rasmus and Kelly Johnson in mid-season. There's a pretty common thread to all these trades though, which is buying low on undervalued assets and trying to acquire as much value as the team could. Just about the last thing I expect the club to do is to trade prospects to acquire proven veterans who will be gone at the end of the year, especially now that there's limited draft pick compensation.

So what is Toronto going to do? Or what should Toronto do? First of all, it wouldn't surprise me if Toronto dealt non-core talent. I doubt if anyone is looking for a catcher with an OBP below .275, but let's just say one way or another I wouldn't be buying an Arencibia shirt any time soon. Edwin Encarnacion's played well, and Kelly Johnson's been awful since around the time he missed a couple of days, and one or two of those guys could go. At the same time, it wouldn't surprise me if the Jays spent some of their precious talent to try to get someone like an Eric Hosmer (not that the Royals would trade him) or Logan Morrison or Yonder Alonso, or even a Josh Johnson.

No General Manager would ever come out and say it, but if I had to guess, I think the Blue Jays were hoping for the best in 2012 but were willing to let things take their course. This has been something that every Jays fan has been saying for years, but next year is the year. The club is young and has a lot of talent, both in Toronto and Las Vegas, and I almost certain that they aren't willing to part with anyone of huge significance to improve the team for this year only. Of all the trades Toronto has made, the only guys they've given up that you would really like to see in a Jays uniform today are probably Edwin Jackson, Mike Napoli and Shaun Marcum, and two of those guys were acquired and shipped out in what were essentially three way trades; the Napoli deal didn't work out, but Jackson was a free agent at the end of the year and the Jays could have signed him if they wanted to; they still have Rasmus, so that's a check in my book. Meanwhile Marcum brought back Brett Lawrie, and I don't think any fans here are screaming for a do over. Most of the other guys the Jays traded will or have ended up in middle relief; ironically the Jays could probably use them right now, but I think they're pretty happy with how things turned out. In any case, the point is that the chances of trading a Travis d'Arnaud or an Anthony Gose are, I think, pretty slim, unless someone good is coming back.

So while the next six weeks could be quiet, other than the AAA-MLB shuttle, I would be surprised if Toronto didn't make a trade before the deadline. I'd be equally surprised if they brought back someone who wasn't under 26 or had several years on their contract left. 2012, whether by design or happenstance, isn't going to be the Jays year, and I think they know this, so any moves will be with an eye towards the future, rightly or wrongly. The club has a lot of options, and I really have no idea what's going to happen. The only thing I'd bet on is that nobody is going to even have an inkling about anything that's going to happen before it actually happens.

So, What Next? | 89 comments | Create New Account
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Dewey - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#258713) #
The only thing I'd bet on is that nobody is going to even have an inkling about anything that's going to happen before it actually happens.

A very safe bet, that.   Relax everybody.  Enjoy the future when it gets here, and stop trying to predict it.

Gerry - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#258716) #

Although the jays have been disappointing they are a 9-3 run over two weeks from being back in the hunt or a reversal of their terrible record in one run games.  These things often reverse over the course of a season but will that reversal be in the next 3-4 weeks or in September?  That will influence what AA does.

I agree with Anders that the Jays will likely try addition by subtraction.  That can be difficult to do in-season.  Most in-season trades are end of contract type deals.  However this is also the first season in a long time with no draft pick driven deals and that might influence the market.

I think a move to promote d'Arnaud around the all-star break could be a form of addition by subtraction.  We all know the difficulty for a first year catcher in the majors.  An earlier promotion would help d'Arnaud with next years transition.  While Hechavarria might get promoted I am not sure if that will be addition by subtraction.  Many here were encouraged by Mottola's comment about Hechavarria just needing to recognize breaking balls.  That is the difference between a .230 hitter and a .280 hitter.  In essence Mottola was saying Hechavarria is not yet ready to hit major league pitching.  Hechavarria might make up some of that with his glove but I don't expect him to replace KJ offensively.

Where AA might have some opportunity is to pick up a starting pitcher who is having a down year but who could bounce back next year.  The Jays haven't added to their starting pitcher depth this year, in fact it has gotten worse with most pitching prospects who are close to the majors taking a step back.  McGuire, Jenkins, McGowan, Cecil, or Drabek have not come through to cement a place in the future plans.  The Jays could use some pitching depth at or close to the major leagues.

The Jays do have players at the toughest parts of the spectrum to fill, CF, C, SS, and 3B.  Finding players at 1B, 2B, LF, RF and DH is easier.  But starting pitching ranks right up there on the left side of those lists and that is where the depth problem is in the organization right now.   

joeblow - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#258719) #
If the Jays go on a nice 110-0 run from here on, they will win the World Series. I guarantee it.

Long season. I'm trying to reset my expectations so that I can enjoy it. I'm not really minding the chance to see Mr Cecil pitch again.

China fan - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#258724) #
"...In essence Mottola was saying Hechavarria is not yet ready to hit major league pitching...."

True, but he also said Hech is "almost ready." The question is whether "almost ready" means he'll be ready in the second half of 2012 or whether it means sometime in 2013 (or possibly even 2014), and whether Mottola was exaggerating Hech's progress as a form of professional optimism.

In any event, the question is moot because the Jays seem quite content to ride with Escobar for the foreseeable future. But at some point, Hech will get his chance, whether as a result of injury or KJ's departure or something else, and then we'll see if he can hit. And if he can, that's when things get interesting, Escobar-wise....
bpoz - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#258729) #
Injuries have hurt the Phillies. If Halladay gets back soon then maybe they can grab the 2nd WC. But that is a lot of teams to climb over.
I thought they were the best team in the NL last year, so for me to say rebuild now sounds strange. But the owners of that division seem very serious about winning., and they cannot all win.

Anders - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#258731) #
I thought they were the best team in the NL last year, so for me to say rebuild now sounds strange. But the owners of that division seem very serious about winning., and they cannot all win.

More to the point, the Phillies payroll this year is $172 million. Next year they have $104 million tied up in 6 players - Lee, Halladay, Howard, Utley, Papelbon and Rollins. Hamels is a free agent, Hunter Pence is in his last year of arb and made 10 million this year, while Shane Victorino is a free agent and also made 10. For argument's sake, they could re-sign Pence and Hamels, and those 8 players, who would all be on the wrong side of 30 next year, would make a combined $140 million. Heck, they have $63 million in payroll commitments for 2015.

Kasi - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#258733) #
Really shows the danger of signing guys for long term deals at the wrong point in their career. I think I'm pretty happy with a lot of the Bautista/Adam Jones/style deals (and especially happy with the Romero/Morrow/Escobar/Lind type ones) because the drawback is so much less. 5-6 years at 13 million a year or so like Jose and Adam got has so much less of a chance to sink your team unlike the Howard type deals. That is why I was so afraid of taking on Fielder. Good player no doubt, but I don't see him living out that contract very well. It also shows the danger of thinning your minors out too much to push for a championship.

At least the Phillies did get there, but interestingly enough it was their young team they had built on their own who won the title. When they tried so hard to hold on to it by trading a bunch of their young guys and resigning some vets they should have let go is when things got bad. With the sunk contracts they have now, I don't see them contending for another 5+ years, no matter if Halladay and Lee stick around.
sam - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#258735) #
Thanks Anders for this. I too agree with what you're saying and as a shameless plug for something Kelekin and I are doing, think this is an excellent piece and segway into a list Kelekin and I are currently drawing up of potential trade targets (of the buy-low variety).

Prior to the season I was shouted down for saying this team wasn't going to improve on last year's record. I didn't buy into a lot of the hype people had for some of the guys on the roster and the potential for injuries. I do hope they turn it around.

I agree with Anders that it's too soon to really paint the Jays as sellers or buyers and I think the Jays would do well to approach the deadline as Anders says with the mindset of improving the "core" talent. Still a ways away from the deadline, but I agree that letting guys like Arencibia, Encarnacion, Johnson, even Escobar, and perhaps some of the bullpen arms go would not be the end of the world. I imagine if Encarnacion hits a few more homers here in the next little while he might be the best hitter on the trade market come mid-July. To repeat what has been echoed here and everywhere on the inter-web, it does look to be a strong sellers market. If legitimate AA/AAA prospects or young players such as those mentioned by Anders could be had in the right package, I'd say go for it!

I'd like to see Travis d'Arnaud up sometime in the next month. I'm less convinced the other two/three prospects are ready for full-time ML at-bats. Pitching depth does have a way of deserting you. I'm not sure many would agree with this, but if Chavez and Cecil bomb, I'm not against giving a start or two to Chad Jenkins over someone like Aaron Laffey or Scott Richmond. I'd like to see innings going to guys who might have a future with the club long-term or increase trade value.

Really disappointed to here about Kyle Drabek. If he is undergoing a second TJ operation, I wonder if the Jays consider a serious overhaul to the windup once he's healthy. I'm still bullish on his long-term future and success.
Nick Holmes - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#258736) #
@#&!
CeeBee - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#258737) #
This is getting crazy. 3 games- 3 pitchers. I'm no lip reader but I swear I saw Hutch say "I felt something pop"
BlueJayWay - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#258738) #
Okay so that might be another TJ surgery.  And I'm referring to Hutchison here.
Smithers - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#258741) #
Yes, this is getting ridiculously frustrating watching the pitchers drop like flies.  I'm getting a really bad feeling about this season, and I suspect that much of the fan base is starting to feel the same way.   I suppose that was why they tried to come up with 5 positives so far this season in the pregame show today, to placate the masses and keep viewership up. 

Cursed interleague play, proving to be the bane of the Jays once again.

Hodgie - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#258742) #
So, is this damnation for the gluttony shown in the preceding 2 drafts or for failing to believe in the slotting system passed down from on high and making a mockery of the most latest incarnation? Whatever circle, not even Dante could envision a journey so swift and alas, Virgil is nowhere in sight.
John Northey - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#258743) #
new rule...no impersonation of Dustin McGowan allowed.
jjdynomite - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#258744) #
Arrrrrrrrrgoooooooos...

But seriously, speaking of trades, AA might want to think of shipping out some of the young hitting talent in favour of... starting pitching prospects.

Can Rasmus and Gose truly co-exist on the same team anyway? Neither are/or project to be mashers, so putting one bonafide CF in a corner OF position seems a bit of a waste.



TamRa - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#258745) #
At this rate, John Lott's inadvertent mention of the word "Sanchez" may be prophetic.

I know it will come up so I'll bring it up myself - Yes i said we had plenty of pitching before the season started, and given the circumstances at the time I stand by it. NO team can withstand having lost five starters to injury or gross ineffectivness.

Romero
Morrow - injured, indeterminate
Cecil - lost effectivness, back now but ??
Alvarez
McGowan - lingering injury
Drabek - likely TJ?
Hutchison - possible major injury?
Jenkins - gross ineffectivness
McGuire - Ditto
Carreno
Chavez
Laffey

5 of the top seven options down, 7 of the top nine?

If that happens to any team they are done, no one can stockpile against a run like that.

Hopefully Cecil can be at least average, that would help - Ricky Ro HAS to step up and become a horse again - I would suppose the Jays would have to be all over Sheets right this minute if he has anything at all to give.

You can tolerate a Chavez or something in the #5 for six weeks or so to figure out if you are in or out on July 31, and if you are out it doesn't matter.

I'd be flying Sheets in for a hard core look tomorrow.
scottt - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#258746) #
What next? Indeed.
greenfrog - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#258748) #
"Yes i said we had plenty of pitching before the season started, and given the circumstances at the time I stand by it"

So how are your WAR predictions for the healthy arms (Romero, Alvarez, Cecil) working out?
Thomas - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#258749) #
5 of the top seven options down, 7 of the top nine?

If that happens to any team they are done, no one can stockpile against a run like that.?

As many of us argued in the offseason, several of these cases of injury or underperformance were entirely predictable. The likelihood was discussed often on here and elsewhere. These are not cases of Roy Halladay suffering an arm injury or ineffectiveness.

And, yes, no team can sustain injuries or ineffectiveness to 7 of their top 9 options. However, a team greatly increases the chances it will be in that position by relying upon McGowan, Cecil, Drabek and Jenkins among those top 9 options.

Unlike you, many of us had an issue with this approach. The issue was not with any of these players individually, but rather as a collective.

greenfrog - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#258750) #
Ugh - horrible news about the pitching injuries. I think the main thing is to get everyone (or most everyone) healthy in the long run. Perhaps at some point in 2013 or by opening day 2014 we'll have a healthy Morrow, Drabek, Hutch, Santos, McGowan, Litsch and Farina on the team. Right now it looks like time to batten down the hatches, continue focusing on rebuilding, and ride out this nasty storm.
scottt - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#258751) #
Litsch would have been an option too.
Thomas - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#258752) #
I wasn't able to watch the game, but I heard Farrell argued consecutive stolen base calls at second. Was anyone who was watching able to say if the ump missed one or both of them?
TamRa - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#258753) #
"So how are your WAR predictions for the healthy arms (Romero, Alvarez, Cecil) working out?"

Not even halfway through the season? dunno. Haven't checked. How did the WAR projection for Bautista look a month ago?

How does anyone's projection for Lawrie look right now?

Truth is, if my projections embarrass me in September - based on what we have seen so far - it's gonna be on offense, not pitching.
TamRa - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#258754) #
"As many of us argued in the offseason, several of these cases of injury or underperformance were entirely predictable. The likelihood was discussed often on here and elsewhere. These are not cases of Roy Halladay suffering an arm injury or ineffectiveness."

Cecil was certainly a question mark, no doubt.
Drabek likewise had to establish himself
And McGowan has had injury issues (though raise your hand if you saw a foot problem coming)

The concern I was raising was - what do you do with those guys if you import three other guys?

What if Cecil, and Drabek ARE major league ready and McGowan is healthy and you gave two or three of those spots to big-contract imports?

None have trade value unless they establish themselves in the majors.

now if the claim is "these guys are a bunch of bums and there wasn't three major league guys in the whole crew" - ok, then it's understandable you'd want new guys. I was simply saying that IF these guys are major league quality - and I mean good major leaguers not Aaron Laffey and Josh Towers - then there has to be a major league job for them.

Or they are a wasted asset.

I never denied it's a high risk group...but I don't think even the most pessimistic person here thought it would be THIS bad.
Richard S.S. - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#258758) #

Ben Sheets, Livan Hernandez are options.   Options I don't want A.A. to consider.   You have Romero and ...You have Romero and ... You have Romero and Alvarez and Cecil and ...................................... and ...

 

Chuck - Friday, June 15 2012 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#258759) #
I wasn't able to watch the game, but I heard Farrell argued consecutive stolen base calls at second. Was anyone who was watching able to say if the ump missed one or both of them?

The ump got the call right both times. The second call wasn't even debatable. I wonder if Farrell's frustration had more to do with losing 60% of his rotation in the past 4 days.
92-93 - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#258760) #
Saw those 2 calls live and neither one looked correct, but everyone watching TV said they were. The lack of replays at the Dome is ridiculous.
CeeBee - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#258773) #
The calls were correct but they were both very close and only seeing them in slow mo convinced me the ump hadn't blown both.
Anders - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 08:16 AM EDT (#258774) #
Saw those 2 calls live and neither one looked correct, but everyone watching TV said they were. The lack of replays at the Dome is ridiculous.

No kidding. I get that they don't want to show close plays at the bases, because I guess that could lead to ridiculous booing, but they don't show ANYTHING after the fact, other than the occasional home run. It is super annoying, especially given they have a giant video board. It's 2012, guys...

Gerry - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#258776) #
I was at the game too....let's just say that the crowd were not endeared to the umpires after several close calls in the back half of the game....if the replay showed the ump made the wrong call the chants of bull***t might have gotten stronger. Lucky it was a 3 run game.

I think the umpire called the Jays out on the bases to save us from Coco Cordero, if the Jays had scored another run it looked like he was going to come in instead of Janssen.
hypobole - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#258777) #
Re: pitcher injuries.

I've never heard any complaints about Morrow's mechanics, and since his injury is an oblique rather than an elbow or shoulder, one could assume it was a freak occurrence.

Drabek, who already had one TJ, had big red flags. Verducci's Strasburg article last year pointed to Drabek as one of the 3 young pitchers primed for serious injury due to his arm lag (late cock phase).

And this is from KLaw's writeup on Hutch this past winter "...slightly cross-body arm action. That delivery isn't ideal for long-term health..."

Stilson and his violent delivery will be another arm to watch, especially if he remains a starter.
92-93 - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#258778) #
I'll never understand the argument that the crowd's booing would become too much if they showed replays. Ever been to an NFL, NBA, or NHL game?
JB21 - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#258779) #
It's not Rogers Centre, I'm pretty sure it's in the Umps collect bargaining agreement that MLB teams are not allowed to show replays of close plays.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#258780) #
What next?

Villanueva to the rotation, and Carreno to Villanueva's role.  I know that a rotation of Romero, Cecil, Alvarez, Chavez and Villanueva sounds terrible, but actually it could be OK. 

The comment has been made that Edwin Jackson was not going to end up in Toronto.  I found that comment odd.  He ended up taking a one-year contract for Washington at $10 million.  Do we know that anyone offered him a 3/36 or 3/39 deal which he turned down?  Maybe the Borasian demands were so high that a deal was not possible, but that does not seem to me to be clear.

Chuck - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#258781) #

I think that in general, people speak with far too much confidence when it comes to identifying pitchers who are especially at risk. I think that by virtue of being a pitcher, you are, by definition, at risk.

Rany Jazayerli is a physician (albeit a dermatologist and thus probably with no great insights in biomechanics) who once wrote for Baseball Prospectus. He attempted to device a metric, PAP (Pitcher Abuse Points) to identify pitchers at risk of injury due to their "treatment" (i.e., pitch counts). This pursuit, while well intentioned, ultimately proved worthless. There is far less reactionary screaching about high pitch counts than there was a decade ago. Pitchers constrained to 100 pitches are continuing to get hurt (which is not to say that high pitch counts don't contribute to this).

On the heels of pitch count being the boogeyman, attention was turned to pitching technique. Mark Prior was the absolutely poster child for perfect mechanics and we know his sad story all too well. Lately, the "inverted W" has become a predictor of inevitable injury. Perhaps it is a better predictor than flipping a coin, but I imagine it is hardly a foolproof determinant.

And now, noted non-kinesiologists Verducci and Law speak with presumed authority on the subject. Why are we listening to them?

Mr. Migayi once counseled Daniel-sun that the best way to avoid getting into a fight is to not be there. Perhaps this applies to pitching. The best way to avoid getting hurt is to not pitch. This seems rash and would make for long and boring baseball games. I am hoping that once Professor Hawking has tackled questions related to dark matter, that he turn his attention to the world of pitching.

Magpie - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#258782) #
"...slightly cross-body arm action. That delivery isn't ideal for long-term health..."

Which tends to create shoulder problems if the pitcher's arm comes to a stop against his own body. (Remember Danny Cox?) But that's not Hutchison, whose arm clears his body comfortably (and then snaps back very quickly, a little like Don Sutton.)
Magpie - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#258783) #
The best way to avoid getting hurt is to not pitch.

Oh in-deed, as Omar once said. Hutchison has gone to the DL with a "sprain" (all sprains involve tearing of the ligaments, of course) and Coello has been recalled to replace him on the roster. I'm not at all happy about Villanueva in the rotation, but if it's just for 15 days I'll let it pass. But it's extremely likely there will be more roster activity - somehow, I don't think the rotation is going to be Romero-Alvarez-Cecil-Laffey-Villanueva.
Gerry - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#258784) #
Hutchison is on two weeks rest followed by a throwing program. That sounds like a 4-6 week absence to me.
Oceanbound - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#258786) #
Even the most pessimistic fan can't have expected both Jenkins and McGuire to implode so badly. If they had even just pitched near to the same level as they did last season, they would probably be on the big league roster now. In the event they've been so awful they're well behind such luminaries as Aaron Laffey and Robert Coello. Yikes.
hypobole - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#258787) #
"And now, noted non-kinesiologists Verducci and Law speak with presumed authority on the subject. Why are we listening to them?"

Chuck, appreciate your flippant remarks. Typical "shoot the messenger" response I was expecting, although not from you.

As far as KLaw, he is no biomechanical expert, but he did point out an issue with Hutch's delivery.

However with Verducci, this what he wrote:

"The late cocking phase appears to be the critical point in the pitching motion," according to a conclusion from a study by Dr. Brandon Bushnell of Rome, Ga., and colleagues and published last year in the American Journal of Sports Medicine, "where higher levels of torque at the shoulder and elbow can result in increased risk of injury."

So yeah, Verducci does know something, because he's actually quoting people who do know what they are talking about.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/03/08/stephen.strasburg.mechanics/index.html#ixzz1xyWopyvm



Chuck - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#258789) #

Chuck, appreciate your flippant remarks. Typical "shoot the messenger" response I was expecting, although not from you.

My comment was not meant to sound flippant. My apologies if it was taken that way.

This subject matter is extremely complicated. Precious little progress has been made over the years to reduce the frequency of pitching injuries or to be able to identify the causes that precipitate them. So when a Law or Verducci weighs in with purported expertise, we all have a right to a healthy dose of skepticism. What is particularly offensive is the Verducci Effect cottage industry, which is a tiresome showcase of pseudo-mathematical analysis done by someone lacking the requisite math skills.

John Northey - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#258790) #
Actually, I beg to differ on the knowledge part - it just is proprietary info that the Rays have.

Why do I say that? Check their rotation since they became contenders.
2012: 4 regulars, 2 others split the 5th role
2011: 4 with 29+ starts, a 23 start guy plus 3 others
2010: 5 with 29+ starts, 2 others with 4 each
2009: 3 with 30+, 3 others 18-23 plus a 6 guy
2008: 4 with 30+, 1 with 27, 4 others (1-5 each)

Every single year 3 or more with 29+ starts (missing no more than 4 in a season), 4 with 29+ in 3 of the past 4. This year is on pace for the same thing again. THAT is avoiding injuries and I figure there is something going on. The rotation has shifted drastically with many different guys in it during that stretch too so it isn't just a group of freakishly healthy guys. They found something to help them keep starters healthy and every other team in MLB should try to figure out what.

My gut feel is they are using pitch f/x and the like to track release point of different pitches throughout the game. Many have said that is the key element in getting pitchers hurt - when they keep pitching once their arm has shifted slightly. The human eye cannot catch it if it is just a couple of inches off but that could be what builds up and leads to injuries. I could be wrong of course (I'm not close to being a doctor) but it is as good a theory as any I figure. None the less, Tampa has figured something out and every team in MLB would be smart to emulate it (if they can figure it out).
Spifficus - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#258791) #
Tampa's success could also be partially attributable to the low-and-slow cooking style for preparing their prospects. 5 month seasons put fewer young miles on the arms, it's easier to justify taking guys out after 4 innings as opposed to letting them 'battle', and they could be using mechanics repeatability as a criterion for promotion. All hypothetical, I know...
Mike Green - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#258792) #
So, what next?

Some questions have wrong answers.  Cordero, top of the 10th, is a good example. 
Magpie - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#258794) #
Every single year 3 or more with 29+ starts

For the usual No-Prize, name the other three teams that can say the same thing. Bonus for the fourth team that just missed by having two guys make 28 starts one season...
Chuck - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#258795) #
Chollie seems happy to lose this with Paps looking on. A lot of that going around.
China fan - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#258796) #
...and Cordero picks up the win.

I'm not defending his 2012 performance. But I would point out that Farrell chose 7 other relievers over the past two games before finally opting for Cordero.
hypobole - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#258797) #
"I'm not defending his 2012 performance. But I would point out that Farrell chose 7 other relievers over the past two games before finally opting for Cordero."

At least he first used Casey J in the high leverage, non-save situation rather than saving him for a blowout mop-up role like he did a week ago. Hope this shows a lesson learned. We'll see I guess.
Chuck - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#258798) #

At least he first used Casey J in the high leverage, non-save situation

Not being flippant here :) but as the game was tied heading into the 9th, there was no potential save situation so no reason to hold Janssen back.

Manuel managed just like Farrell does on the road, holding Papelbon back for a save opportunity that never came. Instead he sent a LH reliever out with 5 straight right handed batters due up.

 

greenfrog - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#258799) #
You know, one way to look at the Jays' season is that they're effectively one game out of a wild card spot (behind Cleveland and LAA) - *if* Baltimore eventually fades (admittedly a big if, but it's well within the realm of possibility).*

Yes, the rotation is in shambles, but they still have a chance. It will be interesting to see if AA decides to promote d'Arnaud, who is surely a better all-around MLB player than McCoy/Vizquel/Gomes at this point.

* Although it will help Baltimore's chances, I am very happy to see Brian Roberts make it all the way back after his 13-month recovery.
bpoz - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#258800) #
I agree with TamRa. Romero (sure thing) + 11 uncertain possibilities is 12. The available off season possibilities would have been costly in $ or departing players/prospects. I cannot recall an absolute bargain. I cannot complain about the performances of Morrow, Alvarez & Hutch, so it was working out IMO.

I thought Hutch had a great chance of pitching for the Jays this year. He has never really struggled at any minor league level. He has actually been dominant. But IMO he should have been moved slower to the majors. He did struggle but adjusted very fast. So overall he has handled the promotion quite well.
They used a 4 man rotation for quite a while due to the off days. Smart thinking I suppose.
John Northey - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#258801) #
Y'know, it is sad when you get excited that a Jays starter made it through without injuries. Talk about shell shocked.

No one expects to lose 3 starters in 4 days.
scottt - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#258804) #
Papelbon is a closer. Janssen just happens to be closing games.

Fun article about Jake and Casey Janssen.

http://www.lfpress.com/sports/baseball/2012/06/16/19885911.html
Magpie - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#258805) #
No one expects to lose 3 starters in 4 days.

The performance of the young starters had been a very pleasant surprise to me. I was very much in the skeptical-pessimistic about the team's rotation. My expectations were very low. I described, and quite rightly, last year's group as "Ricky Romero and a bunch of stiffs" - and I thought Romero was an excellent bet to backslide this year. (Which he certainly has, but fortunately he has wisely improved on the one thing he badly needed to improve last season - his run support.)

As always, whenever the Blue Jays suffer this sort of calamity, I assume that we're seeing karmic punishment for the mortal sin of running Tom Henke out of town. Evidently the Spirits of the Game are still angry, and still need to be appeased....
TamRa - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#258806) #
"Maybe the Borasian demands were so high that a deal was not possible, but that does not seem to me to be clear."

It's not clear - either way. Which is the objection I always have when people say we couldashoulda/woulda...we simply don't know what it would have taken when, or if it were even possible (see Oswalt, Roy) to sign the player.

I was on record being all for Darvish, and Oswalt and Bedard were both guys I favored acquiring (I'd still like to pry Bedard out of Pittsburgh) My problem was always with the idea of adding mid-level guys who were not guaranteed to be better than our own mid-level guys.


but I digress - i brought that up only to say that we do know what it would have taken to get Darvish, and we know that Oswalt was insanely picky about where he would sign. but usually we don't know sch details either way.


Magpie - Saturday, June 16 2012 @ 11:24 PM EDT (#258808) #
Even the most pessimistic fan can't have expected both Jenkins and McGuire to implode so badly.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. All judgements about these guys are, it seems to me, extremely premature. Hell, they're barely even on my radar. This is only Jenkins' third year as a pro; it's only McGuire's second. Where was Ricky Romero in his third year as a pro? I think it would be rather surprising to see these young players march steadily forward, with perfect smoothness and all possible speed, to the majors. No, there will be backward steps along the way. Expect them. And see how these young athletes respond and adjust.
TamRa - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 02:34 AM EDT (#258809) #
Am I the only one mystified that the Jays are not taking the opportunity to put Alvarez between the two lefties?
scottt - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 06:18 AM EDT (#258810) #
I don't think it matters much. Romero and Cecil are totally different pitcher.
Thomas - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#258811) #
Which is the objection I always have when people say we couldashoulda/woulda...we simply don't know what it would have taken when, or if it were even possible (see Oswalt, Roy) to sign the player.

That's true.

However, to take that point it's logical conclusion, fans can't really evaluate any move, because we don't know the full extent of the alternatives available and their relative cost. Fans should be able to evaluate and critique moves, while leaving open the possibility that the player(s) could not be acquired at the cost speculated, by making logical conclusions based on the evidence known. And that's why most people aren't harping on about Oswalt, because it seems as if Oswalt was never going to sign in Toronto. And, comparatively, why Jackson has been raised so often, because one can assume, with the appropriate caveat, that a $12 million/1 year offer or a $36-$39 million/3-year offer would be viewed more favourably than a $10 million/1 year offer. Admittedly, we also don't know how firm Rogers payroll budget was and so forth.

Landomar - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#258812) #
Well, it looks like Kuroda or Edwin Jackson on a one year deal instead of Cordero, Frasor, and Oliver would have been good.  It's a lot easier to find three passable relievers on cheap salaries than it is to find a quality innings eater for the rotation.  Going into the season, we certainly had room for a Kuroda, even if everyone on the depth chart was healthy and pitching well.  It's easy to say something like this now, but I had the same opinion back in the offseason. 
TamRa - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#258815) #
"? Fans should be able to evaluate and critique moves, while leaving open the possibility that the player(s) could not be acquired at the cost speculated, by making logical conclusions based on the evidence known. "


Absolutely.

which leads to comments like:

"I still think we should have signed Jackson if possible"

not

"The team is too stupid (or cheap) to realize there was a crying need for more starters and it's a complete failure not to have signed Jackson or..."

It's not the opinions I mind so much as the implicit certainty.
Chuck - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#258817) #
Manuel can't use Papelbon in a tie game, but down 6-2... why not?
Mike Green - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#258818) #
Closer fever...it's catching.
Original Ryan - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#258819) #
The sheer lack of common sense that managers display sometimes is impressive.
greenfrog - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#258820) #
Congrats to Cecil - it's gotta feel good to get recalled and get a W straightaway.

Also nice to see Rasmus swinging it (as Ashby would say), although he's walked only once in June.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#258821) #
Milwaukee (away) is next, and they are not playing as well as they should - familiar story.   Advantage Toronto.   Miami (away) follows, they might be vulnerable.   Boston (away) follows, still not able to put anything together.   Advantage Toronto.   Toronto finishes the month hosting Los Angeles Dodgers (during which Toronto's attendance exceeds one million fans) - it will be interesting.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#258822) #
OOPS, I meant Los Angeles Angels.
scottt - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#258825) #
Yeah, well, don't expect them to go on a 10 game winning streak.

They seemed to be in a rush to pull Cecil out.

It's weird to think Janssen is second to only to Frasor in seniority with the team.
92-93 - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#258829) #

I was on record being all for Darvish, and Oswalt and Bedard were both guys I favored acquiring (I'd still like to pry Bedard out of Pittsburgh) My problem was always with the idea of adding mid-level guys who were not guaranteed to be better than our own mid-level guys.

Edwin Jackson was a better bet to provide you 30 solid starts than any of those 3 pitchers.

92-93 - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#258830) #

It's not Rogers Centre, I'm pretty sure it's in the Umps collect bargaining agreement that MLB teams are not allowed to show replays of close plays.

Dan Shulman goes to quite a few games across the baseball landscape and has said more than once that he believes Toronto has the worst instant replay in the game.

92-93 - Sunday, June 17 2012 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#258831) #

Oh in-deed, as Omar once said.

Just once I want to see Vizquel walking to the plate with Omar's entrance whistle in the background. Omar comin'.

ayjackson - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 12:57 AM EDT (#258834) #
Apparently we're discussion Jeremy Guthrie with the Rockies.  Perhaps in exchange for a mid level prospect like McDade.  Or so says Kenny Ken Ken Power of the Spoken Word Rosenthal.  He thinks we might bolster our rotation for six weeks and then still be free to flip him at the deadline if we aren't in a pennant race.
Dave Till - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 07:50 AM EDT (#258835) #
Manuel can't use Papelbon in a tie game, but down 6-2... why not?

I think I see the case for not using your closer in a tie game when you're on the road. If you use your closer in the 9th, and your team scores in the top of the 10th, you still have to get them out in the bottom of the 10th. Unless the closer can pitch two innings without risking arm damage, you've got to use somebody else in the 10th. And it's a huge psychological blow to score in the top of the 10th and then lose in the bottom of the 10th. (Even more so if the game has gone longer.) So I can understand holding the closer back.

Not using the closer in a tie game at home in the top of the ninth, though, is not defensible.

As always, whenever the Blue Jays suffer this sort of calamity, I assume that we're seeing karmic punishment for the mortal sin of running Tom Henke out of town. Evidently the Spirits of the Game are still angry, and still need to be appeased....

But how? What can we do at this late date? Push stick pins into a voodoo doll of Duane Ward? Sign Tom to another contract? Pray to the ghost of Kenesaw Mountain Landis? How do we erase this stain?
Thomas - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#258837) #
And it's a huge psychological blow to score in the top of the 10th and then lose in the bottom of the 10th.

It's also a huge psychological blow to lose a game in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings with the team's best reliever, fully rested, sitting in the bullpen and a weaker pitcher in the game.

I'm not discounting your point entirely. I just don't believe that the risk of the psychological blow of Cordero (or whomever) giving up two runs in the bottom of the 10th after the Jays scored one offsets the decreased win expectancy of not using Janssen earlier in the game, particularly if there's a reasonable possibility Janssen could do multiple innings (or a partial second inning).

hypobole - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#258838) #
Especially if the manager still has both a lefty and righty in the pen, using the closer in a tie road game makes even more sense. Using matchups for a batter or two in a tie game can be tricky because you don't know how long the game will go. But if you have both in the pen, they can be as good or sometimes better than one closer. With today's short benches, very few teams will have a lefty or righty masher still available to pinch hit in extras.
Mike Green - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#258840) #
Personally I would prefer if Managers ignored the save rule entirely in assigning responsibilities to relievers.  Acknowledging that all do not (none will bring out a reliever other than a closer with a 3 run lead in the ninth), it is still possible to make modifications to limit the number of times when the closer is brought out down 4 runs in the ninth to get work.

What you could do is have a series of guidelines depending on previous work.  If the closer worked the previous night, the closer would only be brought on in the traditional role.  If the closer had one day of rest after a (relatively painless) one inning outing, you might bring him on the middle of the eighth to gain a platoon advantage and to throw 1.1 or 1.2.  If the closer had two days of rest, you would use him liberally (to start the eighth of a tie game, etc) with the idea that he might very well go 2 innings.  I stress that this would be merely an incremental improvement rather than radical restructuring (which, by nature, I tend to prefer).

Manuel's usage of Papelbon this weekend illustrates the pitfalls of the "full-on slave to the save" approach.

Mike Green - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#258843) #
Incidentally, to get a good overview of where the 2012 Blue Jays are, check out this.  Blue Jay pitchers have given up 83 homers (league average 69) and walked 251 (league average 206), while striking out 455 (league average 482).  Nonetheless, they have given up fewer hits than league average (547 vs. 565) and fewer runs than league average (283 vs. 284).  All of the metrics suggest that Jay pitchers have benefited from a terrific defence this year, and it is really hard to argue with that. 

The message from the pitching coach should be pretty clear. Cut down on the walks.  Brett Cecil or Jesse Chavez or Carlos Villanueva or Luis Perez should all be fine if asked to take a larger role, because of the defensive support they are likely to receive.
Magpie - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#258845) #
Cut down on the walks.

Kyle Drabek to the DL, mission accomplished.

OK, that was mean. We haven't heard today's news, but when you actually hear that popping sound (yup, I've heard it!) you're hearing the sound of a ligament rupturing. Despite all the walks, I thought Drabek was actually making some progress this season. Last year, I thought he was an Arm without a Clue. This year, I thought he was hanging in there. He was trying to pitch, instead of just throwing as hard as he could and hoping for the best.
John Northey - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#258848) #
Given Drabek in his last 5 starts had a 7.20 ERA via 19 walks in 25 IP vs 9 K's I figure losing him now will help the team going forward. The other two though... sigh.
92-93 - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#258849) #
Hutchison was going to be on an innings cap anyway. Losing him for 2-4 weeks might prove beneficial in the long run.
John Northey - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#258850) #
Hutch his last 4 has an ERA of 2.57 with 6 BB vs 22 K's. Add the 5th start and it jumps to 4.32 (6 runs in 4 IP will do that) but his BB to K gets better at 6 vs 25. The kid really was getting it going better and better. Losing him is a big blow imo.

Morrow likewise was just getting better (ERA sub-3 last 5).
uglyone - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#258854) #
I always find it interesting that even the most level headed poster is inclined to rush to judgement during a slump.

truth is, prior to this philly series the jays had to fight through a hellacious 28gm stretch where the worst team they faced was the .500 red sox. they went 12-16 during this toughest part of the season, and that was with them losing 5-6 very tough one run games, where if even 2 of those games had turned out differently it would have given them a .500 record in those 28gms.

starting with this phillyseries, though, the jays have a nice run of opponents right up to the all-star break where the toughest teams they face are the good but not great angels and chisox. truth be told, they couldn't have timed their injured stretch any better.

as for the injuries, the only one that looks like a season ender is drabek's, and it was only arguable that he deserved to be starting ahead of cecil anyways. cecil did better last year than drabek this year, for the record.

so we have two major injuries to deal with and those are morrow and hutch. from what we know now, it sounds like both should be nearing a return after the break, so it's a matter of patching the holes until then. contrary to others i personally think there's plenty of talented depth in perez carreno villy chavez coello that we should be able to patchthe rotation together for a month and a half without killing ourselves.

more encouraging is that it seems like the scuffling parts of the team are starting to get their act together...the bullpen is straightening itself, with.cordero being the only RP with an era over 3.65, and even him being mostly good since his awful opening month. some key bats also seem to be on the upswing in joey, colby, and brett.....and it's starting to look like both snider and d'arnaud might be able to provide boosts to our offense sooner rather than later.

the injuries qill be tough but not impossible to deal with, and with other parts of the roster starting to surge and finallya softish part of te sked coming up, that 3gm gap between us and the 2nd wildcard doesn't seem insurmountable to me, especially with thereality of te rays' batting lineupstarting to set in.
BalzacChieftain - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#258856) #

The Blue Jays just purchased the contract of RHP Shawn Hill from the Atlantic League.  

http://www.atlanticleague.com/cgi-bin/dist/news.cgi?id=1340025501

I suppose more depth is needed in the high minors due to injuries and the many pitchers shuttling between Vegas and Toronto. I had never heard of the Atlantic League so I checked their website and read this interesting bullet under their mission: The AL (Atlantic League) is playing an important role in reducing Major League costs in player development.” Is this league a holding tank for minor league depth for MLB organizations? Peculiar that part of the league’s mission is to “reduce costs” for the MLB cash cow.

John Northey - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#258857) #
Could we all be frustrated with Cordero due to his early season struggles and missed his recovery?

Since removed from closer role (May 8th was his last blown save)...
19 games, 15 IP, 13 H, 6 BB, 11 SO, 1 HR, 1 HBP, 2.40 ERA, 17% Inherited runners scoring, but his WPA (win probability added) is negative at -0.165 thanks largely to 3 games in a row where he allowed a run each time with the Jays losing all 3 (2 tied when he came on, 1 down by 4).

Mixed signals there. Control not so good, K's OK, ERA nice but not helping the team overall. When given a lead he held it in place all but once (9 times, once allowed runs changed from a 6 run to a 4 run lead). In ties he twice allowed a run (putting the Jays into a hole) and 3 times held it - not too good a record. When down 3 or less he held on once and gave up a run once.

Cordero right now is a decent guy in the pen - good for 7/8th innings but avoid super-high pressure.

As to injuries - guess we'll see how it holds up. The 2nd half, if Morrow & Hutchison & Santos all come back should be fun.

As to the schedule...
Next 4 series are against teams expected to be contenders this year in Milwaukee (30-36), Miami (33-33), Boston (33-33), Angels (36-31) followed by 2 against expected non-contenders in KC (29-35) and ChiSox (35-31).

Note: the Angels are rumoured to be considering releasing Vernon Wells. At the ML minimum would he be worth having as a 4th outfielder (after Rasmus/Bautista/Davis) and possibly 5th?
John Northey - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#258858) #
Huh. Hill had a couple of bad games to start but after his first 2 games hasn't allowed a run in 27 2/3 IP during which he walked 7, struck out 21 and allowed 15 hits (no home runs obviously). Probably not ML ready but he could be an asset quickly if you view that time in the Atlantic League as spring training.
DH - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#258859) #
While we're at it, might as well bring back alumnus, and Hill's teamate in the Atlantic League, Corey Thurman!
Mike Green - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#258860) #
Cordero's relative success in Cincinnati was built upon the slim foundation of avoiding home runs on balls in the air, despite not generating a huge number of pop-ups.  That is not sustainable, least of all in the AL East.  He doesn't strike out many, he walks too many, and has a totally typical ball-in-play profile, save for an above-average number of line-drives surrendered.  I really don't see how one could defend his use in high-leverage situations unless one believed that he would return to a 5 or 6 per cent HR/FB rate. 
Mick Doherty - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#258863) #

Whatever circle, not even Dante could envision a journey so swift and alas, Virgil is nowhere in sight.

Hmmm. An exceedingly odd place to wax poetic over Dante Bichette and Ozzie Virgil, methinks!

scottt - Monday, June 18 2012 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#258882) #
Hill looked promising in 2010, but I believe he was released because he was out of options. The Marlins invited him to spring training last year but he fell off the map after that.
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