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Break up the Tigers! After having won two more games already than they won all last April, the Detroit Tabbies are enjoying their brief lead atop the AL standings. Perhaps they're even happy to see the return of a Toronto squad that rolled over and played dead for them in a three-game opening series at Skydome last week. If so, that would be a mistake.

The Blue Jays were jolted awake by that embarrassing performance, and responded by playing much harder and smarter in Boston over the weekend, though they came away with just one win to show for it. The bats are still coming around -- the team scored more runs in its 10-5 Friday win at Fenway than in its five losses combined -- and with no one named Martinez or Schilling on the mound, it seems safe to expect some breakout performances from this potent lineup at Comerica National Park. The Tigers were not a team to be taken lightly; neither is Toronto.

The pitching staff has been inconsistent at best, but no starter has caused as much early-season concern than Pat Hentgen, who takes the ball tonight and whom Blue Jay officials fervently hope throws a heater that breaks 88 sometime during the evening. Opposing him is Jeremy Bonderman, one of the Tigers' talented youngsters whom the organization has thrown into the deep end to teach how to swim. Detroit badly wanted to sign Hentgen this off-season, in part to mentor Bonderman and his fellow rotation mates; tonight, Jeremy would like to give the lessons rather than receive them.

The Jays have actually been pretty fortunate so far; while they've started off a decrepit 1-5, neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox have bolted from the gate in the first week. Toronto doesn't seriously expect to be a playoff contender in 2004, but the club does want to hang around the playground till the real games start, and maybe pick up a little action in the process. In they intend to do that, while also maintaining fan interest and keeping the young players focused, they can't continue to play .400-quality ball. It's silly to consider an early April series with Detroit as critical, because it's not; but what is critical is that the Jays get their A game in place as soon as possible. No more kidding around; by rights the Jays should sweep this series, and 2 out of 3 should be considered the minimum acceptable outcome.
Game 7: Restore the Roar | 187 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_The Original Ry - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#72573) #
It's the standard lineup tonight with Phelps at DH and Cash catching.
_A - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#72574) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/040407
ESPN has come out with a Misery Index for all 30 baseball clubs. Montreal tops the list as most miserable and Toronto is in a very respectable 25th place. COMN.
Gitz - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#72575) #
This may have been mentioned already, but any idea where I can listen to the game on-line?
robertdudek - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#72576) #
The official site lists 610 CKTB 610 CKTB. Right now they have the sports news on.
Gitz - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#72577) #
Thank you, Robert.
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#72578) #
Not the start Jays fans were looking for, I'm sure. 2-0 Detroit and nary an out in sight.
_Nigel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#72579) #
I guess I would emphasize the point that was made in the other thread. Until proven otherwise, you have to assume that the Jays are at a pitching matchup disadvantage on Hentgen's starts. He really is fooling no one.
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#72580) #
http://economics.about.com
Best Fantasy Baseball Decision I Made: Drafting Hinske
Worst Fantasy Baseball Decision I Made: Drafting Hentgen

My ex-girlfriend was a big Pat Hentgen fan. I guess this is some sort of karmic retribution.

Cheers,

Mike
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#72581) #
Opp. field homer for Hinske, which is extremely encouraging.
_Fozzy - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#72582) #
I can't get the game on 610 for some reason. Any other sources?
_Nigel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#72583) #
It's now 4-1 and counting after a Vina single. Any chance of a rainout tonight?
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#72584) #
What to do about Pat Hentgen? DL? Ride him through April? Bullpen?
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#72585) #
http://economics.about.com
I can't get the game on 610 for some reason. Any other sources?

If you're in the London, ON region you can get it on AM 980. It doesn't look like they have a webcast from what I can tell, tho.
_Nigel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#72586) #
Sorry, it's now 5-1 after a Pudge sac fly. They're scoring faster than I can type! This is not the same Hentgen that pitched against the Jays last year. I don't know whether this is another case of a Jays hurler being a "gamer" and pitching threw pain but this is not the same guy. In my view if the radar reading are what I suspect and he's still in the low 80's then I think you have to DL him. It's not just a location issue.
_Nigel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#72587) #
That should be "through" not "threw". Freudian spelling if I ever saw it!
_Dan H - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#72588) #
http://www.980kruz.ca/
Kruz 980 has a Windows Media stream going. COMN
_Fozzy - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#72589) #
Thanks Dan and Mike, gotter going now :)
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#72590) #
Jays need to make something happen here. Cat, Wells and King Carlos are coming up with two on and no out.
_Dez - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#72591) #
I heard Tom Cheek mention that Hentgen was throwing around 87 mph today..

Good to get a couple of runs back this inning.
robertdudek - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#72592) #
Well, he threw at least one pitch that was clocked at 87 on the Comerica gun. I think his fastball will settle in the 89 range once his arm is at full strength.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#72593) #
Remind me why signing Hentgen to a 2 year-deal was a good idea? (Don't make me bring out the DIPS!) I can only assume that Ricciardi's significant other, like Moffatt's, was instrumental in him making the team.

With Arnold still struggling, and questions about Bush's repertoire, how long 'til McGowan is starting in the big leagues?
_Jim - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#72594) #
Thanks for the radio links guys.
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#72595) #
Hentgen was signed to a one year deal.
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#72596) #
Hentgen was signed to a one year deal.
_garth - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#72597) #
I might be wrong but the hentgen deal was just for 1 year. I still think he will get his game back. At least tanyon sturtz is gone.
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#72598) #
Not only did I not finish my message, but I posted it twice! Brilliant.

Hentgen was signed to a one year deal. If I recall correctly he had a few multiple year offers but he and his agent decided to sign for one year to increase Pat's future value.
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#72599) #
http://economics.about.com
I might be wrong but the hentgen deal was just for 1 year. I still think he will get his game back. At least tanyon sturtz is gone.

If this keeps happening, how long will it be before Shaggy peels the mask of Pat Hentgen and reveals that it really is Tanyon Sturtze?
_Donkit R.K. - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#72600) #
Ground rule double to straight away center by Cash. Promising ;-)
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#72601) #
Cash and Catalanotto currently lead the Blue Jays batting race at .300 and .310 respectively. April's a fun month for stats.
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#72602) #
Other than Cat, Cash has the best average among the regulars. Who woulda thunk that?
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#72603) #
Beat me to it........
_David Armitage - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#72604) #
Seann Douglass now in the game for Toronto.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#72605) #
Sorry, I thought it was $2.2M over two years, not one.

I'm not sure which is worse.
_dp - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#72606) #
Hentgen's started 2 games. I'm willing to at least give him a full month before drawing conclusions...
_haddon - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#72607) #
whew.... im so glad they pulled hentgen
I finally was ale to relax a lil while listening to the game....
_Dr. Zarco - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#72608) #
Ugh-Cat, Wells, and Delgado go quietly. Bonderman seems to K the Jays at an alarming rate (8 K's in the 1st game and 6 through 5 tonight).
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#72609) #
The Jays' Hentgen signing this year is as ridiculous as the Leaf's Doug Gilmour trade last year.

Cash was a top 50 prospect this time last year. It shouldn't surprise that he's finally starting to hit with some authority this year.
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#72610) #
Douglass sounds like he's pitching with some authority, inducing four groundballs in his second inning of work, three of which accounted for outs.

I wonder, have the Jays had a 6-4-3 double play so far this year? The only DP I can think of period was a Delgado-Hudson combo back in the first series.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#72611) #
Well, at least the Jays have some depth. If they need to DL Hentgen (or move him to the pen) there's plenty of 5th starter options after Towers. Douglass, Adams, or Miller could all move into the 5th starter role.

I wouldn't bring Miller up unless he's staying up for good, so maybe Nakamura gets the call if Hentgen goes to the DL?

Speaking of Towers, shouldn't Tosca have gotten him some mopup work in the first week. He is going to get lit up like a firecracker whe he finally gets his first start...

Is there any satellite coverage of the game today at all?
_Donkit R.K. - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#72612) #
Hey, no dissing Gilmour! ;-) He was still a solid bet to score at a .5 PPG pace last year, it was just an unfortunate injury. And, frankly, having one of the game's best leaders and one of the city's favorite players can't hurt. If not for the unfortunate turn of events against Calgary, the trade would have been a positive. As for Hentgen, can we let him have five starts first?
_Paul D - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#72613) #
Why is Lopez warming up?
Would he be rested enough today?
_Jobu - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#72614) #
Just when you could relax a little, it sounds like Tosca's starting the parade of relievers again.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#72615) #
Douglass, Adams, or Miller could all move into the 5th starter role.

So nobody thinks the club should try Bush or McGowan? Unless management has completely ruled out the possibility of bringing either one to the majors this year to keep arbitration another year away, why not bring them up now-ish? Willis was up last year by mid-May, and I haven't seen any evidence that rushing players stunts their development.

Unless the Jays have already resigned themselves to another 80-something victory season, they're going to have to take some big gambles to push past the Yankees and Bosox.
_Donkit R.K. - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#72616) #
3 doubles for Cash! Yay!
_garth - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#72617) #
last year florida start 2-6
year before anaheim went 3-8

.... the plan is comming together...
_Matt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#72618) #
wow... kid cash is en fuego.... I thought Woodie was on first base... How'd he score from first on a ground role double?
Leigh - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#72619) #
I haven't seen any evidence that rushing players stunts their development.

My first reaction to this was: "whaddya, insane?"

However, I cannot recall having seen anything on this. The notion that a team ought not to rush its prospects - because it hinders the development of those prospects - makes tremendous sense, intuitively, but... Even if there were a study, it could only imply (not demonstrate) causation.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#72620) #
As for Hentgen, can we let him have five starts first?

Hey, I'm a big Hentgen fan. Nobody cheered louder during Hentgen's Skydome swan song. But this isn't like Halladay's first couple of rough starts (no need to panic), or Mussina's (no need to panic), or even Maddux's (no need to panic... yet). I'm just saying Hentgen's low ERA hid the fact that he sucked royally last year, and I haven't seen anything this year to suggest he'll do otherwise.
_Dr. Zarco - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#72621) #
Ugh-Cat, Wells, and Delgado go quietly. Bonderman seems to K the Jays at an alarming rate (8 K's in the 1st game and 6 through 5 tonight).
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#72622) #
Why was Woodward able to score on that GR double? Was there fan interference? (btw, I'm not listening to the game. Only watching the MLB Game Day feature)
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#72623) #
Aw come on, Vernon. Take a pitch now and then.
_Dr. Zarco - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#72624) #
Sorry, that was an odd double post-45 minutes apart. As for the game, the Tigers pitchers continue to confound all the Jays not named Cash. 6 outs to push across a few late runs.
_Matt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#72625) #
ya right... the gameday is all I've got too... no fan590 coverage and no sportsnet coverage either (electing to instead go with the glorious raptors club coverage... blah)
_Jobu - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#72626) #
Braden: The ump made a judgement call and decided Woody would have made home if not for the interference and awarded him the base.

damn, I thought Vernon could have tied it up there.
_Jobu - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#72627) #
Braden: The ump made a judgement call and decided Woody would have made home if not for the interference and awarded him the base.

damn, I thought Vernon could have tied it up there.
_Dan H - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#72628) #
Why was Woodward able to score on that GR double?

Woodward was running on the pitch, and in the umpire's eyes he would have scored, so he was awarded home plate.
Leigh - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#72629) #
http://www.980kruz.ca/
no fan590 coverage

Matt, on the recommendation of Dan H. (earlier in this thread), I am listening to the game on KRUZ 980. COMN.
_Dr. Zarco - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#72630) #
Double posts aplenty.
_Matt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#72631) #
Kershner's era just jumped from 27.00 to 13.50.... woo hoo :)....
Leigh - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#72632) #
Is Aquillino still gassed from Sunday? I hope not. Any reason to believe that Kershner could not have handled IRod?
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#72633) #
How about that Clemens? One hit and 11 k's in 10 innings so far.
_Matt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#72634) #

Matt, on the recommendation of Dan H. (earlier in this thread), I am listening to the game on KRUZ 980.


oh is that a detroit based station?
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#72635) #
Thanks guys. That clears it up.
_Jobu - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#72636) #
Judging by the commercials and promos, i dont believe 980 is a Detroit station.
_Cristian - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#72637) #
2 on, no one out in the 8th. It's now or never.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#72638) #

So nobody thinks the club should try Bush or McGowan? Unless management has completely ruled out the possibility of bringing either one to the majors this year to keep arbitration another year away, why not bring them up now-ish? Willis was up last year by mid-May, and I haven't seen any evidence that rushing players stunts their development.


Does anyone here remember Matt Drews or Ryan Bradley? They were both _awesome_ Yankees pitching prospects who were pushed through the minors aggressively after hot seasons in high A-ball. When they hit the majors, they were totally unprepared, and got _hammered_. Neither of them were ever the same again.

Two data points is not enough to draw a conclusion from, but they do demonstrate the risk of promoting young too quickly, especially straight into starter roles. In addition to the arbitration clock starting early, a young pitcher can only pitch around 160-180 innings before the risk of injury becomes significant. Which is why Tigers moved Bonderman to the bullpen in September after he piled up a lot of innings (and losses) by the end of August last year.

The Tigers appear to have been fortunate that Bonderman's arm and confidence survived the 2003 season intact. But it was a reckless move on their part to let him start the season in the majors coming straight out of A-ball. Bonderman could have gotten those innings in AA/AAA last year, and the Tigers would be a year ahead on his arbitration clock. And it's not like the 2003 Tigers were one arm away from being competitive :)

I wouldn't rule out calling up McGowan/Bush/Arnold this season, but not until July at the earliest, and only if (a) the Jays are within sniffing distance of the wild card and (b) McGowan/Bush/Arnold have been lights out in AAA. The difference between them and Miller or Douglass over 10 starts is smaller than you think.
_Matt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#72639) #
ooooooohhhhh.... bases juiced for the o-dog!!!!!
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#72640) #
A little luck finally for the Jays, with Vina making his second error of the game to load the bases.
_Dan H - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#72641) #
oh is that a detroit based station?

Judging by the commercials and promos, i dont believe 980 is a Detroit station.


I think it's Peterborough.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#72642) #
It's now or never.

Or maybe the 9th.
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#72643) #
Tigers pitching change, I ponder if Pond will pinch for Woody.
_Paul S - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#72644) #
Seems to be Crash.
Coach - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#72645) #
Nice to get a break on the Vina error, but Hudson couldn't capitalize against the lefty Walker. Trammell goes to Patterson and Tosca counters with Myers.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#72646) #
In addition to the arbitration clock starting early, a young pitcher can only pitch around 160-180 innings before the risk of injury becomes significant.

I mostly agree with both these points (although how a young starter gets to 160-180 innings is probably even more important than the innings themselves).

The Bonderman move was silly for the Tigers, because it gave them nothing.

McGowan, on the other hand, has the potential to give the Jays a Willis-like shot of momentum as they try to push past the Red Sox and/or Yankees. Arbitrationally speaking, what does the club gain by keeping Dustin in AA/AAA until July?
Mike D - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#72647) #
Not the right time for a strikeout.
_garth - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#72648) #
cash for mvp
_Dr. Zarco - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#72649) #
Wow...Myers strikes out. Cash gets it done though! I guess-Jerry called it a "mental error" that gave Cash an infield hit. He's 4 for 4.
_Paul S - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#72650) #
I've got it, no you've got, no nobody's got it. Sounds like an error to me, but it's a hit.
_Tassle - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#72651) #
Kvein Cash is 4 for 4 with 3 doubles and an RBI single. Is this the game of his life or the start of a trend? He had a good game against Boston last week, too.
Can he actually hit?
Coach - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#72652) #
Tom Cheek told a great story about how Danny Patterson may be causing his own migraines by clenching his teeth. That defence will give you headaches, too.
Mike D - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#72653) #
Until their breaks this inning, I was about apply a Marv Levy quote to the Jays: "What do I think of the team's execution? I'm all for it."
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#72654) #
I did something highly disturbing and picked up Cash in the Barfield BBFL league. If my fantasy history is any indication, he will immediately return to hitting a buck-fitty.
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#72655) #
Great for Cash but they really needed to get more than one there.
Mike D - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#72656) #
OK, Mr. Tosca. Let's not burn through the bullpen again. Stick with Lopez. Just stick with Lopez...
_JackFoley - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#72657) #
Ligtenberg or Speier in the ninth, should the Jays have the lead? I go to the latter.

RonDL White continues to hit the Jays.
_Tassle - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#72658) #
I think giving Tosca more competent relievers just gave him more ways to make pitching changes. Is it that important to replace Lopez with Adams?
_Keith Talent - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#72659) #
Are any of the Detroit games on TV?
Mike D - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#72660) #
D'oh! Enjoy your one batter, Terry.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#72661) #
Did Carlos Pena really sacrifice, or is Gameday lying to me?
_Keith Talent - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#72662) #
Hey, who's this 'Da Hugga' guy that's been posting recently? I hear he's going to do a Pinch Hit article?
_Tassle - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#72663) #
Kevin Cash has an OPS over 1.000
_Cristian - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#72664) #
Intentionally walking Higginson? When was the last time anyone feared pitching to Higginson?
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#72665) #
Trammel knows he's one of the few good hitters on the team, right?
_Tassle - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#72666) #
Probably the last time the Tigers were 4 games over .500
_Lefty - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#72667) #
Way to go Kevin Cash, a few around here gave you a breath of a chance. He is not an upper .300's hitter but this will sure do something for his confidence and give him some breathing room on the detracters.

And just a bit of caution on the Hentgen bashing, his last 6-8 starts last season were not a mirage. This player has a lions heart is not playing for money but playing for the Toronto Bluejays. I chalk it up to the new lousy uni's.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#72668) #

McGowan, on the other hand, has the potential to give the Jays a Willis-like shot of momentum as they try to push past the Red Sox and/or Yankees. Arbitrationally speaking, what does the club gain by keeping Dustin in AA/AAA until July?


For starters, I'm pretty sure they guarantee he won't be Super 2 arbitration eligible in 2007

Also, there is no guarantee do that McGowan will adjust to MLB immediately like Willis. Most starters get lit up when they first hit the majors. That would hardly help the Jays in their push for the wild card.

I think it pays to be patient with young pitching. There is no point in risking their future performance in 2005 and beyond by throwing them to the wolves prematurely. Jaret Wright could have headlined the Indians rotation for years, but they wrecked his arm on the way to the World Series in 1997. Even if they had won, I don't think it would have been worth it.
_Keith Talent - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#72669) #
Watch what you say about the new uniforms. Anything's better than the atrocity they were wearing last year. I like the uniforms.
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#72670) #
Terry Adams left in to complete an 8th inning against a left-hand hitter with the bases loaded. Adjustments in bullpen use have been made. All right.
_garth - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#72671) #
every inning terry adamas has pitched this year is giving me more gray hairs.
_Da Hugga - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#72672) #
Oh I like da uni's. They are snugs.

Da Hugga!
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#72673) #
Ugh. I hate the uniforms. They look like Tampa's spring training outfit. No "Blue", no "Toronto", and no hint that the team plays in Canada. Another cynical marketing ploy. Seriously, I thought they were Tampa Bay the first time I saw them "Jays" looks a lot like "Rays" too.
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#72674) #
Tosca left Adams in to complete the 8th despite having the bases loaded and a left-hand hitter at the plate. Adjustments in bullpen use have been made. All right!
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#72675) #
If Johnson continues to struggle, how long before Rios is up? This sucks. Not one of the three games on TV.
_Lefty - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#72676) #
Keith, I always leave something to be critisized.;-)
_Jobu - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#72677) #
Gabriel: Dont they have grey road uni's that say Toronto on them?
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#72678) #
It's possible. The only two uniforms I have seen though are their home ones and that idiotic pajama one where there's the dark top and light bottom. Vernon needs to start taking some pitches.
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#72679) #
http://economics.about.com
The grey road unis say "Toronto" on them. I wish they'd wear those more than the third uni black ones.

I'm not too fussed about the lack of Canadian identification. We can leave all the flag-waving crap to the Americans. We don't need to shove it down people's throats every two seconds, IMO.

Cheers,

Mike
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#72680) #
I'm not asking for a Canadian flag draped around them. I'd just like to see a little red in at least one the uniforms (the trim is fine). No blue, no red just grey, black, and teal. Too much like an NHL expansion team.
Coach - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#72681) #
Phelpsy is my hero!

Jays lead 7-5, but Cat was injured on the play.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#72682) #

Watch what you say about the new uniforms. Anything's better than the atrocity they were wearing last year. I like the uniforms.


The new uniforms are fine...with the exception of that awful home hat. What colour is that supposed to be? It looks like a faded navy blue hat that has been bleached by sun and sweat. I'd much prefer something in blue or black.
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#72683) #
WTG, the Jays need Cat badly though. What happens if he's out? A callup I think.
Coach - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#72684) #
Tom didn't see it, but Jerry thinks the throw from Monroe (a tough E-7) bounced into Cat's face, or perhaps his ear, then into the dugout.
Leigh - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#72685) #
royce marlowe, grow up.
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#72686) #
If Tosca lets Phelps play this year, I think he could be huge. He's got that long swing that needs regular ABs. The HRs will come in bunches.
_braden - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#72687) #
any idea what happened to Cat?
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#72688) #
Speier's in for the save.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#72689) #
No, there's no guarantee, but McGowan's minor league numbers are more arguably more impressive than Willis or Wright's.

Jared's lousy mechanics are just as much to blame as are the Indians. Besides, I doubt those 114+ innings he threw against Major League batters that year were the only problem. You think maybe the 99 innings between AA and AAA he'd already thrown at least helped aggravate things?

I'm saying bring McGowan up to the majors now and let him throw 180 innings of reasonable pitch counts against MLB hitters and see what he can do.
_royce marlowe - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#72690) #
I'm suitably shamed. Now stay on topic, please.
_Cristian - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#72691) #
Speier in the ninth and hopefully Ligtenberg has been relegated to overpaid ROOGY.
_stapes - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#72692) #
the new uniforms are an improvement. I wish they were a darker blue instead of black though.

Listening to the game on the detroit station because the internet feed from Toronto is echoing. Their play by play guys are pretty good and reasonably impartial (at least as much as Tom and Jerry).
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#72693) #

WTG, the Jays need Cat badly though. What happens if he's out? A callup I think.


Hermansen or Hall. Gross and Rios stay put for sure...

Pond might be getting a whole lot more playing time than he bargained for.

Wait...

He's ok! Cat is still in the game. Phew!
_Jurgen - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#72694) #
Boy, where's Urbina when you need him, Tigers fans?
_stapes - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#72695) #
what's a ROOGY
_Joe Maple - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#72696) #
Looks like Tosca might not blow this one, eh?
_Rob - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#72697) #
Kershner and Lopez threw 13 pitches combined. God, I hate that.

One more out.
_Rob - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#72698) #
ROOGY: Righty One Out GuY
_royce marlowe - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#72699) #
what's a roogy? It's when a Japanese person spits.
Coach - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#72700) #
Good to hear that Cat is OK.

Speier is the guy I hoped would get this chance all along. Pudge makes it interesting...
robertdudek - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#72701) #
Are any of the Detroit games on TV?

Tomorrow's game is on Extra Innings but it will be blacked out in Canada. The same feed is available to Rogers Digital subscribers for 5.99 CDN pay-per-view. Thursday's game is not on TV (unless some Detroit station has it).
_Tassle - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#72702) #
Everyone is a R/LOOGY in Carlos Tosca's bullpen
_Gabriel - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#72703) #
The scary Greg Norton. 0 for 10 with 5 Ks. Chris Shelton rots on the bench still.
_Rob - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#72704) #
Tassle: sad, but true.
Coach - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#72705) #
Kershner and Lopez threw 13 pitches combined. God, I hate that.

Yeah, it's a shame when they come in and do their jobs. Aquilino worked three straight days on the weekend; Tosca saved him for one critical batter and he punched him out. This is a problem?

Nice, satisfying comeback win.
_GregH - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#72706) #
I really like the new logos and generally like the uniforms, although I agree with Jacko about the home hats.

I do think that maybe some red piping, just to break up the rather cold other colours, might look good. The unis really don't need Canadian flags or maple leaves - if people don't know Toronto is in Canada after 26+ seasons, they never will.

Altho' if the Expos land in Washington next year and the Jays become "Canada's (only) Team", maybe the leaves should be reconsidered. ;)
_stapes - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#72707) #
I guess the Tigers of 2003 are back (at least tonight). 2 infield errors and a botched play by Guillen (?) give the win to the good guys.
_Cristian - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#72709) #
Good call Tassle.

I imagine that Tosca was salivating when he saw Dave McCarty pitching for the Red Sox on the weekend. Imagine his excitement if JP handed him a bunch of position players who can also pitch.

NOOO...Nothing like seeing that your BBFL opponent has just stolen a win by having Terry Adams on his roster. Oh well, I'll take the Jays victory.

Now if only the Bruins can pull out an overtime win all will be well in Cristianville.
_Donkit R.K. - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#72710) #
The Cat finished the game, though, it seems.
_Donkit R.K. - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#72711) #
I seem to have been scooped ;-)
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#72712) #
http://economics.about.com
I'm with Mike on the uniforms. Canadian symbols on ball uniforms do nothing for me.

Thanks.. I thought somebody would be. Though, I must admit, I kind of like the fleur de lis (sp?) on the Expos uni.

I also agree with you guys on the grey hats. They looked like faded black hats. I'd really like to see white caps. I know they'd get sweat stains pretty quickly, but that just means people would have to replace them quicker!

Cheers,

Mike
_Fozzy - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#72713) #
hahaha, Wilner slams Tosca's revolving door pitcher tactics :)
_Rob - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#72714) #
Good call on the Lopez situation Coach. I forgot about his weekend work. Honestly, I'm just mad at the Red Wings tonight and I took it out on Tosca. :)

RE: uni's. I don't like these ones. Not so much for the lack of red or the Canadian symbols -- I agree with Moffatt & JKCL -- but they are called the BLUE Jays, despite the show being called "Jays on Rogers Sportsnet."
_stapes - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#72715) #
dig the dark grey caps.

Announced attendance was 8804. Living near Windsor, its easy to see why there weren't many there. There may be a windchill out there tonight.

If it warms a little, there will be three drunk jays fans on the third base side tommorrow.

ANybody without a real job in the windsor area should check out the day game on Thursday. Halladay, sunny and warm.
_Keith Talent - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#72716) #
It's nearly as infuriating when Tosca's bullpen scheme works for once.

It's like those begging Mexican kids who, after days of collecting only sorry looks, get the big hand-out from one American tourist. The parents have reason to drive their children into the streets for years after, hoping for another windfall.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#72717) #

Speier is the guy I hoped would get this chance all along. Pudge makes it interesting...


After hearing JP talk to Wilner last Wednesday, I think he was hoping for the same thing. He made some comment about Speier having big onions. In addition to those accoutrements, he also doesn't have a pronounced platoon split like Ligtenberg.

Too bad I have Aquilino in my roto leage :(
_Rob - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#72718) #
Oh, and am I the only guy who finds the voiceover on RSN annoying?
_Jordan - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#72719) #
If not for a bad start by Hentgen, this would have been the walk in the park it should've been. The Tigers essentially beat themselves, but that's what teams like this are supposed to do, just as good teams are supposed to hang around and make it close until then, which is what the Jays did tonight. As JKCL says, kudos to the pen for more excellent relief work; Sean Douglass in particular is looking like a great acquisition so far. This is exactly the kind of solid long relief the Jays have badly needed (and haven't had) in years, and it's what you need to win ugly matches like this.

I also second Mike Green's point that Tosca didn't pull Adams against a lefty. A sign of good things to come, I hope. I still would like to see a game with fewer than four relievers, however.

I'm not ready to decry the Hentgen signing after two starts, but there's not much argument that he's struggling badly. I wonder if they'll skip his next start and let him catch his breath; Josh Towers really does need to see some mound time. It's great to see the team didn't quit after being down 5-0; that's the Fighting Jays we expected to see this year. Hopefully, this will start a good run of success.

Regarding callups: McGowan, like Rios, Gross and others, will let the Jays know when they're ready by how they play. Give them experience in the high minors, let them develop confidence in their abilities and skills, and give them a chance to work through slumps and bad streaks; by that time, they'll be ready to be effective contributors at the major-league level, and we'll know it because their numbers will show it. Until then? That's what the Josh Towers and Reed Johnsons of the world are there for.

Nothing like seeing that your BBFL opponent has just stolen a win by having Terry Adams on his roster.

Damn straight. :-)
_The Original Ry - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#72720) #
As for Canadian symbols on the uniforms, I really don't care. If it were me, I'd just make some kind of secondary logo incorporating the maple leaf (maybe commemorating baseball in Canada or some other dreamed up thing) and stick it on one of the currently-blank sleeves. I wouldn't do anything more than that. I hated when the Jays added red to their uniforms in 1997.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#72721) #

Jared's lousy mechanics are just as much to blame as are the Indians. Besides, I doubt those 114+ innings he threw against Major League batters that year were the only problem. You think maybe the 99 innings between AA and AAA he'd already thrown at least helped aggravate things?


Ah, but he would never have piled up over 200 innings if he had been left in the minors that year :)

Touche!

If a young pitcher does make the adjustment, they get leaned on pretty hard, and their workload gets heavier and heavier. Then throw in a few playoff appearances and presto -- you've got a torn labrum or blown out elbow on your conscience.

Point taken on Wright's mechanics, that could have been a major contributing factor as well.
_Jacko - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#72722) #

The scary Greg Norton. 0 for 10 with 5 Ks. Chris Shelton rots on the bench still.


Gah, that really gets my goat. Shelton slugged .641 in A-ball before his promotion to AA, where he didn't embarass himself. At the very least, they should be giving him PT against lefthanded pitching, and spotting him against weak RHP. It will be a criminal if they stunt his career by giving him only 50 AB when they could easily give him 200.

The best possible thing for Shelton would be a 10 game losing streak. This whole "we're contenders now" nonsense is preventing him from getting into games.
_salamander - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#72723) #
great to see the jays win. Especially the first-rate job by the 'pen and breakout night by Cash (!).

Still, I think the jays were more than a bit lucky in this one. The tigers basically sabotaged themselves and the jays continue to show an inability to capitalize in key situations, coming up small with strikeouts and weak grounders (eg, 8th inning).

Hentgen is a concern but I think it's too early to write him off. At his age, and not too far removed from surgery, it may take some extra time to get into a groove.

I can't wait to see Rios and McGowan (and possibly Gross) in 2004. If the Jays are going to seriously compete in 2005 I think it will be worth getting these players some experience this year. Assuming, of course, that they're ready to be called up...maybe June or July?
robertdudek - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#72724) #
I don't mind Tosca's bullpen usage as long as he gets good matchups. There's EIGHT guys in the pen and lots of days off in April.
_actionjackson - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#72725) #
Great site everyone, I've been a watcher till now, but must jump into the bullpen usage debate/fray. First of all, Douglass went 3 innings which is a borderline miracle given Mr. Fidget. All in all I must give credit for that one.
Kershner was yanked after getting Sanchez and Vina, nothing like a reward for a job well done. I have to wonder how much confidence a young guy like him takes from constantly being yanked, despite decent overall numbers last year and as I remember it, reasonable effectiveness v. both righties and lefties. Ok, in game 2 he had a horrible outing v. Detroit, but at least he was allowed to make it a horrible outing as opposed to a horrible plate appearance. Where's the trust Carlos? These guys would not have had the level of success they've had if they didn't belong here. Might I suggest at least two hitters in order to determine, if the success/failure against the first hitter was merely a fluke? Why, if he retires the first two, would you assume he can't get the final one? Try going with the hot hand of the day. I know I'm knitpicking in what was a successful outcome, but at this rate, we will set a record for appearances this year with five pitchers breaking the century mark. Of course this is not possible, because 3 of the five will have their pitching arms grow four feet longer than their non-pitching arms and wind up on the DL requiring whatever the corrective procedure is for this particular ailment.
One final criticism, before I laud the man for tonight's eighth and ninth innings (much praise Mr. Tosca, it must have been difficult). What in the world was A-Lo doing in there at all tonight, let alone even picking up a baseball to warm up? He is on a dangerous pace with regards to appearances (is there a game he has not appeared in?).
It was very encouraging to see Adams get a full eighth and Speier a full ninth, despite Adams bending but (critical to his confidence) not breaking and being allowed not to break.
I thought the organization had given Tosca the tools to escape his obsessive habits during the offseason. I know the Jays led the league, by a mile, in appearances last year and I get the sense that despite the small sample size they still do and will continue to do so this year until someone reads Mr. Tosca the riot act. If nothing is done we will turn into the St. Louis of the American League, with half the staff on the DL, while we reach into the minors and send some young guys to the Tommy John table, or continue to suffer through the Tam/Creek/Service/Acevedo/Reichert types (the better long term solution, but sheesh!!!).
I found the Francona move of going to McCarty to save arms, despite only being down by 3 in Friday's game interesting and innovative. He took it on the chin that day knowing that tomorrow was another day. Who had more gas in the tank come Sunday?
Please Carlos, give up the Buck Showalter act and find your own style, which should include the recognition that the arms on your team are your most important asset, so please treat them with respect. Sorry for the long-windedness.
robertdudek - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 11:38 PM EDT (#72726) #
Action,

Welcome aboard! A few points...

1) Douglass was coming in for mop-up work (a very good decision to take Hentgen out even though he had just completed a scoreless inning). His job was to get it to at least the sixth so the short relievers could take over.

2) Kershner and De Los Santos are going to be deployed (for the most part) for 1, 2 or 3 batters per appearance. They are lefthanders and their job is to get lefthanded hitters out. Most managers will use a lefty if a L-R-L hitter combination is coming up, an L-L, or in cases where the hitter is particularly dangerous and the situation is critical - for one batter only. There are more righthanded batters than lefthanded ones in the majors, so this is why lefthanded relievers often have shorter appearances. Almost every lefthanded reliever who is not a closer or mop-up man (there are only a few of those) is used in this way by current major league managers.

3) It's rare for any reliever who comes in in the 7th or later to pitch more than one inning on a regular basis unless the other relievers are tired or unavailable. Again, that is the current convention and nearly every manager does it that way.

Given the current roster composition (13 position players and 12 pitchers), it would be foolish not to use your strength (a hoarde of relief pitchers) to get the pitcher-batter matchups you want.

I honestly can't understand why so many people are bitching and complaining.
_geronimo - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 11:40 PM EDT (#72727) #
My gut feeling is that if a starter has to be brought in for Hentgen it's not going to be any prospect. Nakamura or Miller for sure. Ricciardi is a man who sticks to a plan as far as I can tell and McGowan isn't ready to lead the Jays anywhere. The man who may be ready is Rosario. He'll need a good half year to get his stuff together but somewhere down the line when Hentgen finally gets his arm together and Towers or whoever is done trying Rosario is going to pitch a fine third of a season.

G
_Cristian - Tuesday, April 13 2004 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#72728) #
156 comments for a non-televised midweek game. This has to be some kind of record.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#72729) #
BTW, Cash's double that Woodward scored on was fan interference, not a GR Double. With FI, it's the umpire's judgemnet as to where the runners would have ended up.
_Jacko - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:03 AM EDT (#72730) #

2) Kershner and De Los Santos are going to be deployed (for the most part) for 1, 2 or 3 batters per appearance. They are lefthanders and their job is to get lefthanded hitters out. Most managers will use a lefty if a L-R-L hitter combination is coming up, an L-L, or in cases where the hitter is particularly dangerous and the situation is critical - for one batter only. There are more righthanded batters than lefthanded ones in the majors, so this is why lefthanded relievers often have shorter appearances. Almost every lefthanded reliever who is not a closer or mop-up man (there are only a few of those) is used in this way by current major league managers


It's frustrating for me to see Kershner treated like a LOOGY because he's not a LOOGY. He's perfectly good at getting righties out. Last year, his OPS against RHB was around .700, in 2002 it was less than .600. Lopez could have been saved for another night. And he might have been a wee bit gassed after his long outing on Sunday.

I just checked de los Santos, and it's the same with him. He's not vulnerable to RHB either.

Unless it's Manny Ramirez coming to the plate, I'd prefer to see these guys left in to finish innings.
_royce marlowe - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#72731) #
156 comments for a non-televised midweek game. This has to be some kind of record.

Actually, the record is 177, set last year against the Mariners. Believe it was a Wednesday night game; wasn't televised either.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#72732) #
...it would be foolish not to use your strength (a hoarde of relief pitchers) to get the pitcher-batter matchups you want.

True, but using ROOGY Ligtenberg on Sunday to "close" the ninth against a lefty and two switchies isn't using your supposed strength.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#72733) #
If the game wasn't on the line, I'm sure Kershner wouild have stayed in. Tosca (I think rightly) regards him as the second lefty, which means he is currently bullpen filler. And when you have Speier, Ligtenberg, Adams and Lopez - all righties throwing well and with more big league experience than Kershner, why wouldn't you want one of those four guys against a righty with the game in the balance?
Gitz - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:13 AM EDT (#72734) #
What's really frightening is that Royce Marlowe knows, or took the time to research, what the record is for number of posts.
_royce marlowe - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:16 AM EDT (#72735) #
what's even more frightening is that you took my number at face value
_Jacko - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:22 AM EDT (#72736) #

If the game wasn't on the line, I'm sure Kershner wouild have stayed in. Tosca (I think rightly) regards him as the second lefty, which means he is currently bullpen filler. And when you have Speier, Ligtenberg, Adams and Lopez - all righties throwing well and with more big league experience than Kershner, why wouldn't you want one of those four guys against a righty with the game in the balance?


I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here Robert. The big pen is a nice luxury to have, and yes, playing to your strength is a defensible strategy. However, if you overplay your strength, it becomes a weakness. Sunday's game was a great example of that.

I think Kershner showed enough against RHB last year to earn the trust of his manager. Kershner is a skinny guy who doesn't throw all that hard, but he does get results. Until he shows he can't handle it, I don't have any problem with Tosca using him in high leverage situations.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:29 AM EDT (#72737) #
Everybody runs out of pitches if a game goes 12 innings.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:35 AM EDT (#72738) #
Tosca's strategy in Sunday's game was to try to maximize his chance of holding a two-run lead. I think that that is the right strategy, since winning an extra-inning game in Fenway as the visitor is not an easy thing to do. And I think he deployed his best pitchers in the matchups he wanted, so I can't fault him just because (that time) it didn't work.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#72739) #
Pond has been demoted and Hermanson is up BTW. Logical, since we've got plenty of lefthanded bats but had no one to pinch hit for Cat and play the outfield.
Gitz - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:49 AM EDT (#72740) #
But Royce, your number sounded so credible!
_Costanza - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#72741) #
This is off topic, but does anyone know if the Dome allows you to bring in a bottle of water and a bag of peanuts? I know they dont allow glass bottles or cans, I was wondering if it was food in general.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#72742) #
I think you can bring in plastic bottles and packages.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#72743) #
Tosca's strategy in Sunday's game was to try to maximize his chance of holding a two-run lead

How does not bringing in your second best pitcher until the game's tied in the tenth maximizing your chance of holding a two-run lead?

The best thing Tosca did that night was showing confidence in Speier after he gave up two hits past Chris Gomez (great Jeter impression, by the way!) to load the bases.

Lopez should have been given the ninth.
_A - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#72744) #
I believe they will try to screw you out of every dollar they can and, with security as the thinly veiled reason, you're not permitted to bring in water. With water you would, first and foremost, deprive them of an extra 3 bucks; second, have a potential projectile in your posession; and third, you might not *actually* have water in that bottle.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#72745) #
Out of Adams, Lopez, Speier and Ligtenberg, I wouldn't be able to pick out the "2nd" best. There's two ideas I would go with:

1) You want to get the platoon advantage,
2) You want to go with the guy who's rested and/or has been throwing the ball better lately.

Lopez should have been given the ninth.

I don't see any basis for choosing Lopez over Ligtenberg. I'd say that Lig has been throwing the ball better so far this year, but it's a small sample, so it really comes down to personal preference.

Most of us would not have done exactly what Tosca has done, but that doesn't mean that our bullpen deployment would be better than his. That's something the critics should remember.
_actionjackson - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:04 AM EDT (#72746) #
Mr. Dudek,
My tongue was firmly embedded in my cheek on the Douglass comment, I am aware of the mop-up role. I'm just expressing my frustration with the current convention of match-ups, match-ups, match-ups when as Jacko rightly pointed out with Kershner and de los Santos, their performance against righty bats over their (admittedly short) careers justifies at least giving them chances against right handers, in the interest of preserving arms for the marathon that is the regular season. If you're in a 5 or 7 game series, knock yourself out with matchups by all means, but we're talking about the longest grind in professional sports, not to mention the strain caused by multiple extra inning games early in the season. Yes there are a lot of off days early in the season, but over the course of the season, it averages out to 8 games every 9 days. It's not only the physical strain on the arm, but the mental strain of the baseball season. Ideally, I'd like to see your situational guys get about 75 appearances a season, with closer/setup guys getting about 60-65 appearances, with the "less" important guys getting less appearances, but maybe more innings in the hold 'em close/ blowout roles. There's also the strain of warming up 2-3 times without coming in, that nobody seems to talk about. I don't think we should treat them like babies, but respect the most important assets on your team: it's arms. With regards to convention in baseball, it is constantly changing and must constantly be challenged in order to keep making the best game in the world even better. My personal preference for pitching is to see starters work longer, and to see less pitching changes and more flow. I understand the value of match-ups, but I think the current conventions overvalue them. I also think the reason for this match-up mania is the weakness of the pitching pool, due to overexpansion during the 90's, and that as the quality of the pool continues to repair itself, hopefully we can return to a baseball game with more flow to it. All that being said, it sure is fun to debate these things isn't it?
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:10 AM EDT (#72747) #
No one has shown that 70 appearances/85 innings is less taxing than 85 appearances/75 innings. I understand you object to the short stints, but it is possible that it may allow you to get your best relievers into more games.

Right now, the starters have pitched about 5.7 innings per start - once that goes up to about 6.5 innings, you'll see the pen guys get more rest. One shouldn't assume that the current bullpen usage will continue when there are fewer off-days.
robertdudek - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#72748) #
"There's also the strain of warming up 2-3 times without coming in, that nobody seems to talk about."

Tosca doesn't do this: if you're warming up you're going to come in the game (with rare exceptions) because Tosca has you warming up to face a specific set of hitters. I'm convinced that he plans this a couple of innings in advance.
_actionjackson - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#72749) #
Costanza,
I don't know about the rules, but the people at the front gates have constantly let my bottled water and Subway sub get through, even since the 2001 crackdown, just make sure the bag doesn't exceed their size limits. The key is plastic bottles, they don't like glass or cans for obvious reasons, and they don't like liquor. But they don't seem to mind the fact that I'm bringing in the competition's sub. Mr. Sub might, but what do I care?
_Costanza - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#72750) #
Thanks alot Jackson, i'll put my peanuts and bottled water in a shopping bag and hope for the best now :)
_actionjackson - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:32 AM EDT (#72751) #
Costanza,
We use a cloth bag and an undersized knapsack. Good luck, protect yourself from those outrageous prices and who knows, maybe they'll come down. (HAH!!!)
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:33 AM EDT (#72752) #
I don't see any basis for choosing Lopez over Ligtenberg.

Due up in the ninth for Boston was Crespo, McCarty, and Bellhorn, with Mueller and Ortiz waiting should any of them get on base.

That's five left-handed batters for our right-handed duo.

In 2003, lefties hit .356/.424/.529 (.323 GPA) against Ligtenberg.

Over the past three years, lefties hit .268/.391/.419 (.281 GPA) against Ligtenberg.

Maybe it's the sample size gremlin rearing its ugly head, but over his brief MLB career, Lopez has done a better job against southpaws: .250/.353/.411 (.262 GPA).

I'd have taken my chances with Lopez with the first four, and, like Tosca, brought in Kershner against Ortiz had it gone that far.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:34 AM EDT (#72753) #
Whoops. I meant four left-handed batters.
_Matthew E - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 01:58 AM EDT (#72754) #
My wife bought a bottle of water at the Dome back on the 5th, and they took the cap off of it before giving her the bottle. So at least they're consistent.
_dp - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 02:10 AM EDT (#72755) #
Robert, I also think that the Jays aren't getting a chance to evaluate what's on hand. I don't think the team should plan long-term on using 12 pitchers; at some point I think 6 capable relievers should emerge. If Tosca continues like this, he won't find out what a player's "real" ability is. A discarded seemingly fungible LOOGY or ROOGY may turn into more than that given the chance, and if the Jays won't give that chance, another organization will. Plus, it seems like an extra bat on the bench would help a lot- Pond AND Hermansen would be nice.

If Hentgen goes down for any period of time, I'd love to see the Jays try something experimental with the last 2 rotation slots- something like a 6-man.

As a side note related to the minors thread, it would really be nice to see Syracuse win something this year and work something out with the Jays. The SkyChiefs and the city made a huge mistake with their new stadium IMO by putting it where they did rather than moving it downtown- going to the ballpark is kind of disgusting, and reminds me of Shea. Going to a Bisons game is really nice, but going to a SkyChiefs game is depressing (unless they've dressed up that parking lot some)...from what I know, the Chiefs benefitted a lot from the Jays WS wins in the '90s (and their management had a lot of fun)- and if the Jays become good again, generate buzz, they'll probably see some benefits.
_A - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 02:17 AM EDT (#72756) #
they took the cap off of it before giving her the bottle
At Molson Park in Barrie this wasn't the policy and I think we were all better off for it. At EdgeFest99 the two concensus worst bands were Len and Serial Joe *shutters* so in a bid to prevent them from performing, half full water bottles were chucked at the stage. We succeeded in taking Len out of commission but Serial Joe managed to continue...I was about 18 inches from the drummer's head, though the intended target was his kit.
_Matt - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 02:20 AM EDT (#72757) #
Non-linear rambles comin up

Kershner won my respect the day that he got 5 scoreless IP on the yankees after one of the few horrendous starts by John Wasdin. This guy can handle the righties I would think.

Wilner actually praised the pen management today. The only little criticism he gave was that lopez got into the game when, as action points out, he had no business being there... In any event... an ugly win but we'll take it... besides... its only a matter of time before we see the Doc CG's come back and therefore allow the pen to get rest so as to temporarilly subside the rotating door...

I'm gonna choose not to be discouraged by the 2-5 start. This pitching staff both in relief and the rotation will turn out to be better than last yr... Surely the top 5 batters will eventually regain their form... particularly Wells, Delgado and Reed (what happened to the slap bunt for a single buddy???).... and finally, Tosca will eventually figure out something that works... He showed signs of change today...

It's just this span of 4 days w.o a televised game that is pissing me off... I bite my thumb at thee, oh Rogers monopoly guy!!!!!
_R Billie - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 06:40 AM EDT (#72758) #
It's obviously too early to matter but Johnson continues to display a disturbing trend. He has a homerun in four at bats against lefthanders this year. In 19 at bats against righties he's 3 for 19 (.158/.238/.158). He has no walks against righthanders against 4 strikeouts.

Even if he improves marginally against righthanders, there's no way the Jays can afford to take that large a step down from Shannon Stewart's production over the long haul. He did manage a .731 ops and .348 obp against righthanders last year but that includes a very hot start. I think at best Reed is an average hitter versus righties though with far below average power. Not good for a leadoff hitter or an everyday corner outfielder.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, April 14 2004 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#72759) #
This is off topic, but does anyone know if the Dome allows you to bring in a bottle of water and a bag of peanuts? I know they dont allow glass bottles or cans, I was wondering if it was food in general.

The specific rules are:

1) no cans
2) no glass
3) no bottles over 1L
4) no coolers
5) no backpacks

So if you bring water in 1L or smaller bottles (and they had no problem with my 1.25L Brita water bottle, so it's not like they're measuring -- I think they just don't want those 2L giant bottles coming in) and just put your food in a bag, you'll be fine.

They're trying to attract fans, and not allowing fans to bring food is a turnoff.

In 66 games last year, I had no problems bringing in containers of sushi, vendor dogs, subs, a giant bag of peanuts, bags of chips, cups of coffee and boxes of doughnuts. Also, the gate folks are very friendly if you walk immediately over to the bag inspection table and open your bag for them to look in without them having to flag you down.

I did learn that ushers are not allowed to eat food offered to them by fans, though.

So who's coming to the game on Friday? I'll make a KEVIN CASH FAN CLUB banner.
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