Lilly will have to be on his game for the Jays to have a chance in this one.

Hmmm...batting Hinske second is an interesting move.

Sparky, batting .440 during his 13-game hit streak, had a good rip at the 1-1 but it went foul off the end of the bat. The called strike three would have been outside last night, but it's Phil Cuzzi, behind the plate tonight. Cuzzi is reviled for his quick thumb, but has a more generous strike zone than Spagnardi.

Hinske (yeah, Ryan, I might have hit O-Dog second) was guessing off-speed with two strikes, so he was late on the fastball. Wells, never very successful vs. Pedro, lined out to Damon and that's that.

The radio guys were talking about Lilly tipping his changeup. Tom says Cito Gaston was excellent at seeing stuff like that from other pitchers, which helped his hitters a lot.

Lilly gave up an opposite-field single to Damon (good pitch, good hitting) then caught Bellhorn looking. Millar laced one the opposite way to put runners on the corners, but Ted got out of trouble by getting Manny to bounce into a double play.

I can only guess that the reason that Hudson was dropped to 8-hole was to avoid back-to-back LHB in the 7/8 holes (Hinske and Pond). It can't be due to Hudson's mini-slump, which has been much shorter than Hinske's 42-game slump.

As for the inning-ending DP, where was the excitement? Rob Faulds was totally blase about a potentially big inning being averted. Getting Ramirez to hit into a GIDP with a man on third, especially off a LHP, was huge.

I guess if it ain't Youkilis in a Hooters T-shirt, it ain't worth getting charged up about.

Top 2: Pedro tried to sneak a 2-strike fastball by Zaun, who was sitting on it for a sharp single. However, Delgado, Phelps and Pond were retired on easy grounders. It's not going to be easy to score tonight; the deuce is really breaking.

Bottom 2: Lilly threw a 3-1 cookie to Varitek, who ripped it into the corner and tested Pond's arm for a double. Actually, the throw was pretty good, Simon just took an bit too long to get to the ball. Ted came back to punch out his nemesis, Mirabelli, who had been 5-for-8 with three HR, explaining why he's the DH tonight. The lefty, throwing more fastballs than usual, struck out the side (an awesome backdoor curve froze Kapler) to keep it scoreless.

O-Dog hustled out a 170-foot double despite a strong throw from Kapler. I'd play little ball here with Menechino up and hope Reed can hit a sac fly.

Fantastic AB by Frankie, working a full count, fouling off a good fastball, stepping out to disrupt Pedro's timing, then hitting a triple over Kapler's head. 1-0 good guys, with a chance for more...

Terrific AB by Menechino-saw about 8 or 9 pitches and laced a triple the other way. Way to get on the board first. The "Hudson at the top of the order" experiment didn't last too long, but I expect to see him back at the top rather soon.

RBI single laced up the middle by Hinske; 2-0 Jays.

That ball was smoked. Almost hit Pedro in the keyster.

V-Dub extends the hit streak to 14 games, giving Carlos a chance to be a hero...

Nice idea by Delgado -- it looked like he was trying to bang an outside fastball off (or over) the wall -- only he got under it for a sky-high infield popup. Phelps hit a very soft liner back to the mound, but it was still a great inning, providing a little cushion for Lilly.

Disappointing end to the top of the 3rd with Delgado/Phelps, the expected run producers leaving a pair on, but 4 hits in one inning off Pedro is always good. Make it hold up TRLilly! Named For Hank had better start bringing more TR's to Skydome for future Lilly starts, as he seems to have found his strikeout groove.

What , do you think, will the roster moves be when Woody comes back?

I would guess Berg goes bye-Menechino's been great in the infield (Gomez has been...solid) and Pond is a slightly better defensive outfielder.

SIX K's through 3 for TRLilly! The senseless balk doesn't hurt.

OUCH! Lilly freezes Millar with a nasty curveball for strikeout #6, stranding Damon at second.

We definitely need more Roosevelts next time.

Donkit, Woody's return may be a few weeks away, so it's premature to speculate. Right now, the least useful position player is Berg, who simply isn't an outfielder and hasn't been hitting, either.

Elsewhere, Justin Morneau just homered for the Twins -- it's bad news for the Canadian Olympic team if he and Simon Pond are producing in the Show, but I'm very happy for the B.C. boys.

Woo-hoo! Another tremendous curveball for Teddy's sixth K in three innings. He's using it sparingly, but brilliantly.

This is aimed at Coach but all others are asked to chime in as well.

I appreciate that hitting in the major leagues is about a jillion times more difficult than it appears on TV. I get that. I just wonder about the lack of adjustments I am seeing from slumping hitters.

Carlos Delgado has been being busted inside more than I've ever seen, for about the past month now. And he refuses to back off the plate to either (a) give himself more room to do something with the "inside strikes" (apologies for sounding like Rob Faulds) or (b) give the pitchers some reason to pitch him on the outer half of the plate (when was the last double we have seen him hit to left-center?). Any hits he has had lately have been on mistake pitches that have been middle away, not on the inner half. And what's even more frustrating is watching him press, chasing the inside pitch that's under his hands instead of working the count. This has been reflected in his low (for him) walk totals.

On the flip side, Josh Phelps keeps getting victimized on pitches low and away. Clearly he has a long reach and doesn't need to crowd the plate, but from where I'm sitting, he's either got to move up a little on the plate or show more discipline and not bite on that blessed low and away slider (I know, easier said than done).

I'm not sure if there's anything I enjoy more than watching Lilly K a guy looking with that huge curveball.

Sit down, Manny, and thanks for playing.

Varitek is Roosevelt #8 swinging at the high heater.

Chuck, I've thought the same thing about Carlos standing too close to the plate many times. But I've gotta assume Carlos has thought that himself or someone has suggested it to him and there's a reason he's not-it could just be that his pitch recognition just isn't as good for whatever reason-cause he should really be taking a lot of those pitches that almost hit him in the left knee.

TRLilly has been amazing btw--4 K's in a row and now 8 through 3.2 innings.

chasing the inside pitch that's under his hands

That's the real problem as I see it, Chuck. Last night Carlos walked on six pitches, none of which was in the zone. He swung at the first two, both sliders under his fists. I don't think it's a question of where he's standing in the box; it's more a pitch recognition thing. He's taking fastball rips at breaking pitches inside, and needless to say, can't do anything with them.

It's a similar thing with Phelps, who has always had trouble recognizing off-speed and breaking stuff. What's happening when he chases those sliders is, he launches a hard swing at what his eyes and brain have registered as a fastball, then by the time he realizes he's been fooled, all he can do is throw the bathead at it and hope to foul it off.

Presumably all these guys have their eyes checked more than once a year, and there are no vision problems -- it really is incredibly difficult to calculate spin, speed and ultimate location in 15/100 of a second. When a player is "seeing the ball well," he's able to solve a complex physics problem almost instinctively. If there are any thoughts intruding, especially along the lines of self-doubt, it takes too long and he looks overmatched.

Wow, this year #9 hitters are hitting .381 off Pedro!

Kapler tries to check his swing on a pitch way up out of the zone, but gets punched out.

The Cheer Club, present in spirit at Fenway, now has only one Roosevelt left.

Is anyone else reminded of Lilly's effort in Game 3 of last year's ALDS, when he would have ended Boston's season if not for those baserunning brain cramps by Tejada and Byrnes? That 2-hitter through seven, with five K's, was the best game Ted ever pitched.

The stakes aren't as high tonight, of course, but the Jays could sure use a win and he is doing a superb job so far. He has definitely changed his approach, using way more fastballs than I've ever seen from him, which has made the occasional deuce devastating. Some of the credit has to go to Zaun for calling a great game, and some to Gil Patterson for convincing the reputedly hard-headed lefty to make adjustments.

Wait, I'm confused -- how does a bad 3B make that play on a slow roller against the swift Damon? Way to go, Eric!

I love high scoring games, but I also like outstanding pitching performances. Both guys are rolling right now.

Up to this point it's game like this that gave me the false illusion that Lilly has the potential to be a legit 2 guy.

Wells really appears to be laying off the outside pitch that put him in such a slump in the first month-whoops, as I say that he chases an outside pitch. But not swining at the fastball 6 inches off the plate outside has got to have helped launch his hot May.

Nice job by Phelps and Zaun to see a whole slew of pitches. They probably cost him coming out for the 7th as he's around 108 pitches.

Fantastic at-bats by Phelps and Zaun pushing Martinez well over 100 pitches. His night should be done.
Lilly is pitching one hell of a ball game. I think he will continue frustrating all of us like this all year, but when he's on I don't think I care too much.

Ouch! A comebacker off of the shin. I can only imagine how much that would hurt.

Hope he's okay.

Thanks, Dr. Zarco :)

So, what's Delgado's salary for next year and who pays it? Will he set the record for biggest paycut in MLB history or is Mondesi's record safe?

Heck of a catch against the Monster by Pond on a towering fly ball from Millar. The wind probably just saved us two runs.

Manny UNLOADS for the second consecutive night. Tie game

Yikes...I hate to say it, but I saw that coming. Ramirez > Millar.

It's unbelieveable how much I hate Manny.

Holy Crap!!! That was a LONG BALL and it looked so effortless. I'm getting nervous up to this point we've played well enought to win, now it looks like the bullpen will finish the game for both teams. Very nervous.

That looked like a 6-iron shot by Manny on a decent pitch, but you have to wonder if Lilly was rattled by the shot off his leg.

Varitek swings through a 3-2 fastball for out #2, and Lilly's day is done.

Here comes Ligtenberg.

That looked like a 6-iron shot by Manny on a decent pitch, but you have to wonder if Lilly was rattled by the shot off his leg.
I think he pretty obviously was.

Lilly is done. Really sucks about that shot off the leg and what happened afterwards; he pitched a terific ballgame. At least he struck out the last batter he faced. 10!

Here we go, bullpen with a chance to redeem itself.

Ortiz comes in as a pinch-hitter for the DH Mirabelli to face Ligtenberg. Uh-oh...

It was a tough decision after the comebacker. It obviously hurt Lilly as he was noticeably limping even though he was trying to hide it. It looked like Tosca 'felt' he Lilly should come out, but was scared of using the bullpen. Tough decision for the manager.

Ortiz is doing his best Alex Cora immitation.

Fine job by Ligtenberg vs. Cookie Monster; I would have pitched around him, but Kerry made NINE excellent pitches to finally get him.

So, what's Delgado's salary for next year and who pays it?

About $12 million, depending on the length of his next deal, and it's entirely up to him where he plays. He'll get a generous, competitive offer from the Jays and there should be plenty of interest among other teams.

Onions! Ortiz whiffs on a 3-2 slider out of the zone, the 10th pitch of the at-bat, and we're tied going to the 7th. Great at-bat.

Who is this Anastacio Martinez guy? Anyone know anything about him?

Regardless of how this one ends, we're watching TWO excellent teams in a tremendous game, baseball at its finest.

The "other" Martinez has terrific stuff (I saw him on TV in spring training) but let's hope he has some rookie jitters. Rally time!

I'm wondering --- what happens if Varitek gets injured for the Sox now that Mirabelli has been PH for?

There's always a question about Dominican ages, but Anastacio has done well in the minors, very well if his birthdate is legit. He struck out 27, walked 10 and allowed 25 hits in 24.2 IP at Pawtucket this year.

what happens if Varitek gets injured

One of the "dirtbags" -- McCarty, Millar, maybe even Bellhorn -- will strap on the pads and the Jays will run wild.

Fine effort by Hinske, but he was a tad slow getting to his feet to make the throw.

I see that Kershner is on to pitch. He did poorly last year when asked to pitch in consecutive games.

This is one of those extraneous pithcing changes I don't like. Ligtenburg seemed to have decent stuff, why lift him for the eighth hitter this early in the game?

Well Mike, you're right so far-walked the first guy he faced.

Francona burned most of his bench for that AB, but Kershner lost McCarty and is now in serious trouble with the top of the order coming up...

Two-strike bunt? On a pitch that was low?! Thanks for coming...

Thanks, Pokey. Thanks, Terry.

I certainly expected Reese to be a better bunter than that!

Great, not only did they lift Ligtenburg for no reason, it seems that Kershner may have some injury concerns as well.

It looks like Reese did that on his own-Francona went over to have some words with him in the dugout.

This game was flyin' along-it's now at a standstill. Big situation here with the sacs loaded and 1 out.

Grounder through the left side scores Youkilis and the bases are still loaded with one out... and it's Terry Adams time.

Kershner got Bellhorn to hit a ground ball -- six feet to the right and it's a double play, but it finds the 5.5 hole and drives in the go-ahead run. That's baseball.

Sharp Grounder V2.0 turns into a double play and the damage is limited to one run.

Top of the order for the 8th.

Wow that was huge. Great job by Adams to get the DP-I really didn't want to see Manny with the sacs loaded.

Great job by Adams to get out of it with no further damage. Vernon might have to be the hero for the Jays, because Embree will almost certainly be coming in to face Hinske and Delgado.

Reed shows Pokey how it's done with a push bunt on the first pitch of the 8th and he's on first. 14-game hit streak for Sparky and it's rally time.

Sparky keeps both his hit streak (now 14) and the game alive by bunting on the rookie. What a player!

So do you pinch-hit Gomez for Hinske?

Reed took another risk there and got burned; he broke on Embree's first movement but was easily caught. I really didn't think Eric had a chance vs. Embree, either. Very disappointing inning after that promising start, and once again, I fear we're Foulked.

With the benefit of hindsight? Yeah. I would have pinch-hit. (I wasn't at my computer for Hinske's at-bat, and I refuse to second-guess.)

If you're Francona, do you leave Embree in to face Delgado before bringing in Foulke?

It's Manny time...

Does Embree stay to face Delgado? Or does Foulke come in. I would assume Foulke's earned the right to pitch the entire 9th, but it sure would feel good to have Carlos bust out against the righty.

Hate. Manny.

Hinske...no range...weak arm...average approaching Mendoza...good thing J.P. locked him up to a long-term deal!

Who the hell cares what player has hit the most HRs off the Jays. Cerutti babbles on like this is something for the record books. I guess these guys just run out of things to talk about.

Ugh, another few inches closer to Delgado that's a gimme double play.

I wonder what the Jays team ERA is in the 8th.

What's with all these seeing-eye singles the Sox keep getting? The usual suspects get three straight hits that were painfully close to being easy outs to pad the lead to 4-2. The Jays cut down one runner at home, but it's still second and third with one out.

What the hell was Adams thinking there? That it was a force play? He made no effort at all to tag Ortiz, and the only thing I can conclude is he was afraid of a collision. Brutal play, especially after your own wild pitch. My least favourite Jay.

What in the world? Why did Adams catch that and just fall down? Was he afraid of contact? Ugh. Get it started Carlos-Foulke simply isn't as good as he's been so far this year.

Dr. Z, it was ugly, but at least we're watching the same game. :)

I'm speechless.............................

You bet Coach-it kinda makes ya chuckle.

Bring back Joey McLaughlin. Please.

I guess Foulke is about due, right?
Walks Delgado to leadoff

Of course, I bet that's what teams losing to the Dogers said all of last year.
Phelps grounds into the Delgado force

Solid at-bat from Phelps, but then he rolls over an outside pitch and almost GIDPs. He hustles to beat out the throw, though, and it's Zaun time...

Nice play by Reese. I thought for a fleeting instant that Pond was coming up as the tying run.

If this team was a horse, it would have been shot this week.

Well a big effort is needed from Batista and the bats tomorrow.

So does anybody still think we're just off to a slow start or have you seen enough to realize we aren't even a .500 ball club and have take a huge step backwards?

Sigh. A grea start by Lilly is wasted.

It was still a good game though. Just..damn. I'm getting sick and tired of the freaking Red Sox. Bring on the Angels even.

Frustrating loss, for sure - but if Pokey's two inches shorter, it's a different ballgame.

I'd like to give Asianflow a knuckle sandwich. You're pissing me off.

I am a huge believer in momentum. That grand slam by Lecroy 4 days was the team's death knell. Now its all downhill.

Yeah, whatever, Chris B., Asianflow. They have played nothing but first-place clubs for the last nine games, split with Boston at home, played well enough to win the Twins series, and were tied late in the last two against the best team in baseball. If you want to give up, why don't you also just shut up?

Here's some numbers ... let's just say the wildcard this year takes 93 win, the Jays would have to go 76-43 the rest of the season. That's playing at a 0.639 clip.

I'd like to clobber Adams too.

Reason #212 I dislike Cerutti

Cerutti keeps mentioning that the Jays bullpen is struggling because there is no defined closer. Wasn't Adams the defined closer for the last two weeks? Weren't they still bad? How would any pitcher ever become a 'closer' if you could only use 'proven closers' to fill the closer role. Wouldn't every possible closer eventually retire and then what? Would every team just make their starters throw nine innings since there wouldn't be any proven closers around (and therefore every bullpen would struggle)?

With that said, the team just needs some major tinkering in the bullpen and maybe another position player to compliment the offense. The starting rotation is fine.

I'm a huge believer in reverse-momentum. Losing three in a row sets us up for a long winning streak ;-)

And Reed Johnson, at the worst times, likes to think he's Rickey Henderson or Ichiro.

Coach you do realize the Jays record is 17-26 right? Jays are one of the worst clubs in the majors. You guys amaze me with your positive thinking.

The Red Sox are missing two major cogs too. Its the way we are losing not the fact that we are.

Yeah, Keith, Sparky started a rally and snuffed it out, all by himself. We'll have to see if he had the steal sign or did that on his own, but you just can't get picked off as the tying run with nobody out.

Jays are one of the worst clubs in the majors.

You amaze me with your ignorance, Asianflow. We're all amazed by something.

As long as Delgado struggles, the team struggles, kinda sucks:-(
I think Tosca should bench him for a day or too, give Phelp's a start at first for once.

The fifth hole has been abysmal this year. Anyone we stick there might as well go up to bat with a bamboo stick.

Go find another website Asianflow. Why don't you start your own website: jayssuck.com. I'm sure you think you're one of those ultra-refined human beings, but you're just a hurtin' soul who gets over his own insecurities by putting everything else down.

Asian Hot Air

Did somebody say deja vu?

I have an idea. Instead of posting 100+ comments about every game here on battersbox.ca, why dont we just cut and paste todays posts, or yesterdays, or Wednesdays, change a few names around, and re-post it. Same old story.

Here we go again....

I think Delgado better go, sooner rather than later. It's time for a new leader. BRAD FULMER.

"Go find another website Asianflow. Why don't you start your own website: jayssuck.com. I'm sure you think you're one of those ultra-refined human beings, but you're just a hurtin' soul who gets over his own insecurities by putting everything else down.

Asian Hot Air
"

Holy Shit. I didn't know I would get personally attacked. Wow, I guess I should be happy that we lost and we are one of the worst clubs in the majors. Bring out the happy dance!!!!

I betcha Delgado will hit 5 hr's tommorow and the Jays will go on to win 30 in a row and reclaim top spot in the division! Positive thinking.

Just ban all the anti-jays posters and copy-paste this into every game thread so nobody has to listen to their bitching, but at the same time you aren't looking like fascist ogres snuffing out other points of view. Because really, this is pretty much all they say.

THE JAYS SUCK
TRADE DELGADO
FIRE TOSCA
GIVE ADAMS A KNUCKLE SANDWICH

Tejada had a terrible first half to his walk year as well. At least this makes JP's decision easy for next year (which he may start thinking seriously about very soon). I think you start Carlos everyday at first no matter what.

Remember those great Mariners teams that had that brutal bullpen for years. It took them 3 years or so but piece-by-piece they put together the best bullpen in the league. A bullpen is so hard to put together. I think it takes years of finding and "farming" the right veterens to have the perfect bullpen. I don't know how Anaheim has put together such a great pen.

FYI Anaheim doesn't even have a lefty to utilize in their pen. Thats how dominant it is.

Asianflow,

Your negative schtick is one of the reasons I stopped going to the Jays newsgroup. Seriously, do you get some satisfaction in pointing out the Jays failures to us here? Most of us here at battersbox are intelligent baseball fans and we realize that the Jays are playing badly. However we all still care for this team and it sucks to have someone point out every failure with an 'I told you so'. The next time you post, please for our sake, use the preview button and read your post first. Ask yourself whether you are adding anything constructive or whether you are just rubbing salt in all our wounds. Understand that you can be critical of the team without gloating.

I don't think Terry had any idea where he was in relation to home plate on that play. Which if you've seen him pitch recently isn't that hard to believe. By the time he knew he was way off to the wrong side he fell in panic instead of diving forward for the tag.

AsianFlow is Dave Stewart in disguise. still peeved about being overlooked.............

It's unfortunate because of all of his great years of service to the franchise, but so far this year I'd say that Delgado is killing this team. Not just compared to his usual great self, but compared to an AVERAGE 1B, he's been awful.
I don't think it makes JP's job easier; in a way, it makes it harder. Lowballing Delgado is classless, but offering him a fair-market-level deal is more fraught with risk than ever.

Asianflow: I'm sorry, but if you come to one of the most popular and well-respected baseball sites on the internet and start belittling the opinions of the people who run the site, you deserve to get attacked. If you want to disagree do it in a well-informed and moderate way (try reading Mike Green's posts to learn how to do it properly).

Damn, Asianflow. Sure, they've got a a weak record, but if you've been watching the games then you know that they're competitive and not that far off. Even if they were hopeless; what keeps you coming back here to dole out the abuse? You remind of that guy from Major League who couldn't shut up until they were an out away from the pennant...

Actually, come to think of it, Mike G doesn't disagree with the powers that be all that much anymore. Come on, Mike, where's the contrariness gone?

you aren't looking like fascist ogres snuffing out other points of view

Batter's Box won't ever "snuff out" a reasonable point of view. If Asianflow really believes the sky is falling, his obsession with reminding us at every opportunity is understandable, though completely unnecessary and increasingly tedious. Chris B. may have a point; I can't really tell. The most interesting thing to me is, these guys refer to the Jays as "we" even while bashing them.

Well it seems pretty obvious I'm not welcomed here by the tight knit group here. I get jumped all over for my comments.

With that said I've enjoyed reading the discussion here in my brief stint on this great website (very knowlegable diehard baseball fans). I won't bother anyone of you so I won't post here again. Hopefully the Jays can somehow turn around the season. Take care.

Asianflow

I'm trying to be optimistic, really. But it's getting tough. There's a point where you have to move past "it's just a bad month", and I think we're getting there.

I'm not too concerned about the pitching; at least it's had its ups and downs. But Delgado, Hinske and Phelps have been horrible, and those are the guys that need to be the backbone of the offence. Phelps & Hinske in particular are quite distressing, since they're supposed to the future of the lineup. At what point do the Jays decide they're not improving, and what's Plan B?

I was pretty optimistic until the Lecroy homerun and now these last two games. I'd rather have my fingernails removed than have to watch this team self-destruct in the later innings. I think this team's core is strong but at the same time, the fat has to be trimmed some how or another.

BTW Kelvim looks pretty good tonite. I've always had a warm spot in my heart for the guy even though he can act like a jerk.

The thing is, you have to be able to tell the difference between frustrated emotion, and genuine analysis. It's the people who vent their unhappiness and call it a rational assessment who get jumped on.

Context is extremely hard to differentiate in terms of typed text on a message board. AsianFlow's biggest detriment is that he is overly redundant with the doomsday scenario. Its bad but this team isn't the expos.

Was tonight confirmation that Frasor is the new closer? I know they've been saying that it's back to match-ups, but I have to believe that Frasor would have made an appearance in one of the last two games if that was the case.

Take it easy guys. I don't think Asianflow has any idea why there's this animosity towards him. He's lacking analytical skills (wrt baseball) but remember, there's people out there that are PAID to write/comment about baseball and lack any type of analytical skills (see post #103).

Asianflow, if you believe the Jays are one of the worst teams in the majors, show why! Just listing their record isn't proof unless you believe that every team is playing at their true talent level. And if you believe that, then there would be no point in continuing the season as there would be no change in the standings. Hence we could just crown Anaheim champs and move on.

So does anybody still think we're just off to a slow start or have you seen enough to realize we aren't even a .500 ball club and have take a huge step backwards?

Why is that? What changes caused us to 'step backwards'? How could it have been avoided? What can be done to improve the situation?

Spouting cliches and only using hindsight to make swarmy comments isn' t liklely to get you any love on this site.

I think if Frasor was the closer officially, they would say something. Tosca's big problem, in my mind, is a lack of definition in his roles: I'm sure the relievers themselves don't even know who's gonna come in to protect a seventh inning lead. He plays his hunches too much, and gets too spooked by recent performances - Ligtenberg's his guy, but three bad outings and he's a mop-up man.

Just a check on the rules here - If a pitcher continues to pitch after a visit from the trainer and then they decide that he's not going to be able to continue, does the next guy get as much time as he needs to warm up or is it seen as an ordinary pitching change?

I ask because I thought they should have brought someone in for Ramirez - Lilly didn't look comfortable against Millar - but I wasn't sure if they could.

I think Tosca's suffering from a lack of confidence, which shows up in his handling of the pitchers. Early in the season he was using his reliever roulette schtick, and likely got his hands slapped for it. Then he went the opposite route for a short while, leaving his starters in too long. Over the last few weeks his bullpen management has been decent, but still got poor results. Today, he went a bit back to the roulette routine unfortunately as he removed Ligtenburg for Kershner, despite the fact that Ligtenburg seemed to be 'on' tonight. If you can't trust your million dollar reliever with the eight and nine hitters in the line-up then what is he there for?

Tosca's grasping at straws now to try and get something to work. I feel sorry for him but it might be time for him to go.

I do like the idea of giving Hinske a prolonged look at the no. 2 spot. That's where he's had the most success and while it shouldn't matter, it may give him a push in the right direction (OK, I have absolutely no basis for that). I also like the idea of Hudson making the bottom of the order something to contend with.

Ryan, S.K., you're right; Delgado is killing the team right now. If -- oops, when -- Carlos gets going, there will be a ripple effect through the whole lineup. The guys immediately behind him are trying to do too much. When he starts carrying the team like he so often has, everyone else will relax up there.

I'd also like to see Hinske continue to hit second against RH starters, even after Cat comes back. Eric knows his job there, and he's good at it -- taking pitches, drawing walks, using the whole field. With that approach and his strength, he'll hit 20 HR by accident. I'd still pinch-hit for him against the really nasty LH relievers, and bat him lower in the order vs. LH starters.

Today, he went a bit back to the roulette routine

NDG, sometimes a manager just has to go by feel. Ligtenberg had just given up a hit -- to a RH batter -- to open the seventh in a tie game. Leaving him in to face a lefty pinch-hitter probably seemed like tempting fate to Tosca. By making that change, Daubach was out of the game, so Carlos shortened the opponent's bench and got a Kershner/McCarty matchup that was at least as favourable as Ligtenberg/Daubach. There's no "right" or "wrong" but I completely understood the move. However, Kershner continues to give the impression that he's not as effective working on consecutive days, which is another problem to consider, and Adams got bleeped and blooped to death again. Right now, against a great team like the Red Sox, this bullpen is Hobson's choice, and I don't mean Butch.

You make some good points Coach, though I would have to disagree with you on your characterization of the Red Sox. They're good not great at this juncture with the players they're missing.

On a lighter note - if his last few outings weren't a karmic response for blaming Hinske for the blown save in KC, then Adams' unceremonious backside landing at home tonight definitely was!

Thus proving once and for all that there is justice in baseball. So really, can the winning streak be too far off?

I wonder what the Jays team ERA is in the 8th.

I wasted a minute calculating this manually - it's 6.70, inflated by a smattering of 4- and 6-spots that occurred mostly in road losses. Which doesn't say anything more than that sometimes the pen hasn't been able to find its way out of the 8th.

NDG, sometimes a manager just has to go by feel. Ligtenberg had just given up a hit -- to a RH batter -- to open the seventh in a tie game. Leaving him in to face a lefty pinch-hitter probably seemed like tempting fate to Tosca.

But thats just it Coach, Tosca doesn't show any confidence in his pitchers and his 'gut feel' moves never seem to work. Let's look at the situation.

1) Ligtenburg stikes out the left-handed Ortiz in a great at-bat. Ortiz is likely the most difficult left-handed bat that Ligtenburg would have to face in this game.

2) Yes Ligtenburg gave up a single to lead off the eighth, but again I ask: If you can't trust your 2.5 million $ reliever to face the eight and nine hitters in a line-up, what is he there for? Yes Daubach's pretty good for a eight hitter, but he's still an eight hitter!

3) We already know Kershner sometimes struggles when pitching two days in a row. Add to this that Kershner has some type of minor leg injury (serious enough that the trainer needs to come out and check on him).

4) The bullpen as a whole has struggled recently, especially when asked to relieve mid-inning.

5) Tosca's apprehension to 'tempting fate' has alredy left him short in two exta-innning games this year, one of which his starter got into the eighth innning. Even if the Kershner move works, you know he's changing pitchers again to start the ninth, which means he's down to two in the pen vs. a very strong Red Sox relief core.

Sorry, but I don't see how this can be considered a good move.

Hey Asianflow,
Don't worry, some of the people on the site are like that. Hey, I'm with you, I think the Jays look hideous. I posted this a couple weeks ago saying they had no character. Mr. Coach said he hated fairweather fans like myself, but he later removed his post. However, he had no idea I attend 20 games a season, and have for years.
Seriously, though, doesn't anybody else sense Joe Charbonneau disease in Eric Hinske? And can we please, for the love of god, stop harping on Tosca? The man has done a fine job the last month. He isn't the one going out and giving up hits. Nakamura? Twins CASTOFF. Adams? He doesn't care that he gave up a grand slam to lose a game. Kershner? He's Trever Miller's long-lost twin. Ligtenberg? De Los Santos? C'mon, it's like Tosca choosing lethal injection, electric chair, or firing squad. All these guys are killing him.
Anyway Asianflow, I want to be optimistic too, but I enjoy reading pessimism as well. And if you hang around this site long enough, they'll let you in on where you can get a great pair of glasses. Sadly they only come in one colour: rose.
Henry Rod-freaking-riguez

I forgot that Daubach was pinch-hitting, so he's not really an eight hitter, but he's not Babe Ruth either. He cleared waivers earlier this year and spent some time in the minors. I don't think you should be basing your strategy on him.

There are alot more potential opportunities for outs in that Red Sox lineup right now. Millar, Bellhorn, Reese, Kapler, Daubach. I'm not scared of any of these guys.

Not to harp on this, but I support Asianflow's right to express his views. There is some great analysis on this board, but a lot of it is unscientific, off-the-cuff opinion, and Asianflow is entitled to his/hers. Incidentally, I don't have any problem with calling a 17-26 team one of the worst in the majors. Since when did "potential" count for more than wins and losses? I would rather contend with inferior talent than be average with superior talent.

"Incidentally, I don't have any problem with calling a 17-26 team one of the worst in the majors."

I have a problem with it since it's not true.

Here is NDG's cogent argument ...

"Just listing their record isn't proof unless you believe that every team is playing at their true talent level. And if you believe that, then there would be no point in continuing the season as there would be no change in the standings. Hence we could just crown Anaheim champs and move on."

Around here, if you express a strong view and get called on it, you better be able to defend your position. If you can't, this probably isn't the place for you.

Much like yesterday, I would have liked to seen The Hentgen given the ball in the late inning, just to see what would happen. At least we'd be filled with a sense of "hmmm... I wonder what will happen?" instead of the feeling of immpending certain doom we get when the current pen (minus Frasor) takes the ball.

It would be VERY interesting to see what Hentgen could do with the ball in relief... It's a foregone conclusion (if it hasn't been announced already, not sure...) that Miller is gonna get the call in the next game where they have to make up their minds b.t a 4th and 5th starter... There is another off day coming up involving the anaheim series... That said, during Hentgen's rest time from starting we should see what he can do when he comes in as a reliever... Maybe the vet can become a closer... It's happened with other pitchers who've sturggled while starting...

As for the pessimist v optimist grudge... my take is that given that the 6 wk mark is a pretty good indicator as to how the season will go... I think we have to realistically come to the conclusion that the season for all contending purposes is done... We have now to look forward to a fun team to watch... a team with some fight in it... a team that noone is happy about facing with lots of young up and coming stars... you get my idea... its about love of the game and love of the team thats gonna keep us going now... I had a great time at the cleveland series to end the season last yr... meant nothing but our boys played very well and it was fun to watch, just as the rest of this season will likely be...

I'm not all that angry about the slide that will likely push us out of contention for another reason as well... As soon as that service date passes, we'll likely finally get to see some of our touted prospects get a shot on the big club... Maybe Adam Peterson will get some saves in september :)... anyhow thats my 2cents

oh yeah, if one pitcher gets injured than the reliever does get as much time as he likes to warm up... I've heard cerutti mutter that rule a few times...

I love that guy... He is a true baseball geek... and I say that because of the geekish enthusiasm in his calls... I love cerutti!!! There I said it....

If ya wanna talk about an announcer who really needs to become a mute than how about Tim McCarver? Oh god I can't stand that guy... IS he going to use the squeeze here tim???

Alan Embree got away with not having a balk called when he started and hesitated after taking a sign from Varitek. This was just before Reed lost his mind and took off for second base. Apparently this is a balk for Roy Halladay, but not Alan Embree. (That's just me being bitter, so don't take it seriously.) I like Reed Johnson's aggressiveness, but down one run with big hitters due up, his foot's gotta be nailed to the base.

Terry Adams has become an embarrassment. The man /fell/, for the love of God, running forty-five feet towards home plate. There is no excuse for that. If it were an isolated incident, that would be one thing, but he has gone from proving he can't pitch in the 9th inning to making a good case that he can't pitch in the 8th inning, either. Pretty soon he'll run himself out of innings in which he can pitch.

Carlos Tosca needs to stick with his relievers longer. It's obvious that no-one's going well, so it's better long-term strategy to just let his men pitch a full inning so they can work out their problems. This nonsense of pitching to two batters per outing is not helping anyone.

I'm a little surprised that Spencer Fordin didn't mention Adams falling on his ass in the game writeup. He's not the type to pull punches like that, and he couldn't possibly have missed it.

Not to harp on this, but I support Asianflow's right to express his views. There is some great analysis on this board, but a lot of it is unscientific, off-the-cuff opinion, and Asianflow is entitled to his/hers.

I agree completely. Maybe my post above wasn't clear, but it's fine (IMO) to not have on the rose coloured glasses. But you still have to support your opinion (and anecdotal is fine).

Late to the party, but I'll throw in my two cents, too:

Support is key. It's like all the "Myers will go back to stinking this year" posts that only cited his career numbers and totally disregarded all the work he did to change his entire approach to batting. To believe that he forgot or would willingly disregard all that work seems ridiculous to me, and the argument drove me up the wall.

Asianflow, people wouldn't get so hot under the collar if you posted a bunch of "whys" with your analysis -- because that way they could at least argue them.

Examples --

VERSION ONE:

Person A: The Jays suck! I told you so!
Person B: You suck! Lemme give you a knuckle sandwich.

VERSION TWO:

Person A: The Jays need to do something about this bullpen.
Person B: Well, these two guys are doing great, and this guy is injured, and these guys are playing way below their career numbers, plus the team isn't giving the pen the run support it had last year.

Version two gives you points to rebut. Version one makes you want to leave and never come back.