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The Tampa Bay Devil Rays beat Detroit last night, a victory no doubt celebrated with champagne in the front office at Tropicana Field. With the win, the D-Rays assured themselves of escaping the AL East basement and finishing fourth for the first time in their brief history. The win also guaranteed another fact: with their worst record in 23 years, the Toronto Blue Jays are going to finish Dead Freakin' Last in 2004. They will choose either 4th, 5th or 6th in next June's draft, depending on the Expos and Brewers' final weekend performances. Welcome, in other words, to rock bottom.

Now, for Jays fans, this indisputably stinks. But if you're the kind of person who likes to find just one thing to feel positive about: try this: this is only the second time Toronto has finished last in any full season since 1982. Since then, the DFL position has been apportioned thus:



Tampa Bay 6
Cleveland 4
Baltimore 2
Detroit 2
Milwaukee 2
Boston 1
New York 1
Toronto 1

That's right -- even the mighty Yankees (1990) and BoSox (1992) have sat in the basement recently; the Yankees' cellar-dwelling season came in the middle of four straight sub-.500 campaigns. And I trust you'll recall which team won its first World Series the last time the Red Sox finished last.

What does all this mean? Going forward, maybe nothing. But I think it says two things: (1) this has been a remarkably resilient franchise for the past 20 years, and (2) what goes up always, always, always comes down. Feel free to lament this sorry Blue Jays squad; but don't utterly despair for the future, because as Sparky Anderson once said: "Every 12 hours, the planet turns upside down on the guy who was sitting on top of the world."

Today, though, the Jays are playing for pride. Fallen pitching ace Roy Halladay makes his third return to the mound after missing two months with shoulder ailments. Unlike his previous two outings, he'll probably be allowed to let loose and go his normal distance; it helps that his next start will be on about 150 days' rest. He'll pitch to Gregg Zaun, but the Toronto lineup is otherwise unchanged from the starting nine that handed the Yanks their head on a platter last night.

The New Yorkers themselves, unused to embarrassment (outside of Cleveland, anyway), essentially started a AAA team last night. Today, it's a AAAA squad making an appearance: Jay-killer Jorge Posada joins the lineup and bats cleanup, and the Lofton-Matsui-Giambi triplets once again top the order. But otherwise, it's a second straight start for Andy Phillips, Enrique Wilson and Felix Escalona. Old friend Johnny Olerud gets the start at first base; with retirement a distinct option for the Helmeted One after this season, this could be one the last chances for Torontonians to pay their respects to one of the team's most popular alumni.

Kevin Brown starts for New York, and his bosses (including The Boss) will be watching closely and not a little anxiously. Brown has come as advertised for the Yanks: solid when healthy, but not often healthy, and not always with the proper judgment concerning wall-punching and other hobbies. He was hammered in his last start by the Red Sox, and the Yankees really need him to show that it was rust, not ineffectiveness, that did him in that day.

With Orlando Hernandez hit hard again by the Jays last night, and complaining afterwards of a tired arm that could limit his playoff use, the pinstripers' pitching issues have escalated from questionable to outright worrisome. New York plans to start dependable veteran Mike Mussina in their first playoff game, but he's to be followed by -- wait for it -- Jon Lieber. Javier Vazquez doesn't even have a table reserved in this rotation. The bullpen, once a bulwark for the mighty Yankee teams of the past, is also in trouble: Steve Karsay isn't close to his old self, Paul Quantrill appears to have finally broken down, and Joe Torre is seriously considering -- wait for it again -- Tanyon Sturtze to set up for ubercloser Mariano Rivera. In other words, the Yankees absolutely need Kevin Brown to deliver the kind of dominant, eight-inning performance in the playoffs that he can produce at his best. They need to see him deliver a facsimile of that today against the Blue Jays.

And those Jays -- playing for pride at the end of an awful season, behind their recovering ace, with nothing to lose and a lot of frustration to work out -- they're ready and waiting.
Game 160: Playing For Pride | 279 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Asher - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#29050) #
Great intro!
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#29051) #
Nice intro.

I really wish the MLB draft was in the off-season like the NHL one. Give me something to look forward to.
_IainS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#29052) #
Looks like the 518 boys will get a visit from Tabby and Rod Black today
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#29053) #
Is it a bad thing that I wish Kevin Brown gets hurt today?

And I also feel bad for caring more about the Oakland-Anaheim game than this one. If given the choice, I would watch the one out West.

What's that about the Cheer Club? I missed it.
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#29054) #
4-5-3 double play!

Hinske for SS!
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#29055) #
Tom Cheek just said someone had a .365 on-base percentage! Tom, welcome to the Dark Side. ;)
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#29056) #
Rios has over 400 AB's now and just 1 HR, is anybody else a "little" bit concerned about the lack of MAN POP from Mr. Rios?
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#29057) #
I wasn't concerned, because in June/July/August he was ripping a ton of doubles.

But, now that AIR hasn't hit a double since August 31....yeah, I'm starting to get a little concerned.

I wonder how many HR's AIR would have if he would just pull the ball ONCE in a while.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#29058) #
Roy looking good.

Nothing but groundballs so far.
_Jordan - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#29059) #
I'm more concerned by Rios' zero doubles in September. But he had 24 two-baggers by the end of August, and that's not bad for a skinny 23-year-old rookie. He's also tired; he's playing his 155th game of the year today, and that's way beyond anything he's ever compiled before.

I'll be satisfied with 10 HRs from Rios next year, so long as he's line-driving 30-35 doubles and 10 or so triples in the process. The full-scale home run power probably won't arrive for another full year yet. But as his performance last winter shows, that HR pop is certainly there.
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#29060) #
Listening to the YES network they said that talked with Patterson and he turned down an offer to be a minor league instructor for the Jays, and that he'll definitely be out as pitching coach.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#29061) #
But, now that AIR hasn't hit a double since August 31....yeah, I'm starting to get a little concerned.

He "tripled to deep right" on September 24th. Triples are just doubles with speed, after all.

But, yeah, it's still only three extra-base hits in his last 30 games. I figure if he only weighs 195, and he's 6-foot-5, he'll be fine.
_Urooj - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#29062) #
http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=100619
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#29063) #
JP mentioned yesterday Rios was fatigued and has had a long season.

I mentioned a while back I was a little concerned about his lack of power and he has shown nothing to prove me wrong.

Hopefully he puts on 10-15pds of muscle in the off-season and can hit 15-20 HR's next season. I'm sure the Jays brass expected a lot more than 1 dinger from Rios after 400+ AB's.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#29064) #
I'm not too concerned with Rios's lack of Doubles, afterall he has a pretty good chance of swiping 2nd when he gets on 1st.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#29065) #
I don't like the management offering Patterson a minor league post. It seems a bit crass. I hope he gets a good job elsewhere.

I don't really agree that he hasn't produced as expected. The pitching seems pretty good, given the personel he has to work with. And it's often said that it was his advice which turned Halladay into a great pitcher and Loaiza into a pitcher of some value. All the announcers say that he is very well respected around baseball. I do hope it isn't just a personality issue.

The Jays might very well come to regret this. And if they do, they would only have themselves to blame: I have very little time for the "deputy heads will roll" attitude and I must admit that my favourable impression of Ricciardi is becoming tainted by his treatment of Tosca and Patterson and some recent comments in the press.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#29066) #
Hey Rod. Let Tom Cheek show you how its done.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#29067) #
I mentioned a while back I was a little concerned about his lack of power and he has shown nothing to prove me wrong.

You've mentioned it about 50 times since June. We get it. Unless Rios suddenly hits a bunch of homeruns, he can't prove you wrong.

So far, through three innings, Halladay has thrown 21 pitches, 17 for strikes, and has induced 6 groundouts.

This is the Doc I remember.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#29068) #
I wanna update my rosters for MVP, does anybody have CAP's for Chacin, Bush, Adams, Qurioz, Gross, and Rios?
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#29069) #
I'm not too concerned with Rios's lack of Doubles, afterall he has a pretty good chance of swiping 2nd when he gets on 1st.

The issue about Rios' doubles is only partly that he's not getting himself into scoring position. It's more about his ability to advance baserunners (which doubles do far more effectively than singles). If he's going to be a corner outfielder, he'll at least need to hit doubles to get his SLG up (it's an unimpressive sub-400 right now). Further, doubles from a young player are often a harbinger of homeruns to come.
_Paul D - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#29070) #
Andrew, I really don't understand how they've treated Paterson unfairly. As mentioned by Pistol yesterday, that Jays are second last (or maybe third last after yesterday's game)in ERA. Additionally, managers almost always get to choose their own coaches, no matter what team they're coaching. Finally, I don't see how offering him a job is a bad thing. To me that's as gracious as you can be.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#29071) #
Rios will hit for power.

But right now, he's not trying to. His adjustment to the ML level, after some early struggles, was to take something off his swing.

He simply isn't swinging very hard - he's just meeting the ball. It's worked for him, and he's not going to change what has worked in the middle of the season.

I expect to be swinging harder next spring, and I expect him to hit some ball out of the yard.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#29072) #
0-0 in Oakland. Kelvim is looking very good despite a couple of walks, Zito looking a little less comfortable he's needed 40 pitches to get through two innings.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#29073) #
CUBS LOSE! CUBS LOSE!
_6-4-3 - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#29074) #
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/mvp_baseball_2004_cap_a.txt
I wanna update my rosters for MVP, does anybody have CAP's for Chacin, Bush, Adams, Qurioz, Gross, and Rios?

I was just thinking about starting a new MVP season yesterday, with all the callups.

One FAQ (COMN) has CAPs for Rios, Gabe Gross, Quiroz, JFG, Pond, Dominic Rich, Menechino, McGowan, Arnold, Ligtenberg, Miller, and Rosario. It sounds good, but I don't agree with many (if any) of the CAPs. Part of the problem is that they were made before the season, so you'll see things like Rios' contact rated at 43/50. But if you want a starting point, it might help.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#29075) #
Hatteburg drops a pop-up in foul ground, thats the second drop by Oakland this afternoon.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#29076) #
Who's this guy pitching today? Looks pretty good.
_6-4-3 - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#29077) #
Okay, I see now that GameFAQS doesn't like it when you do direct links, so just copy and paste : http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/mvp_baseball_2004_cap_a.txt to get to the FAQ I was talking about.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#29078) #
The Jays are 7th worst in AL in team ERA i.e. bang in the middle of the pack.

Given that they lost their number 1 starter for so much of the year, niggling injuries to other starters, that the replacements were rookies and hopefuls, and that Patterson had almost nothing but dross and youngsters to work with in the bullpen, I can't see how he did that badly. Now, losing a top starter for a while and having a few niggles is something that most teams have to cope with, but the rubbish that was signed for the bullpen is not Patterson's fault. Nor can he be blamed for Hentgen not having it any more.

If managers traditionally get to choose coaches then I guess that's the way it will be. (It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, and I thought JP was supposed to be breaking baseball tradition wherever it was inefficient, but I don't know whether there's actually a good reason for it).

Offering him a minor league job is a slap in the face because it's a straight out demotion, and they surely knew he would refuse it.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#29079) #
http://www.mvpmods.com/pafiledb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=796
What system are you playing playing mvp on? I assume it's console you're talking about, because the Emil's roster for PC has all of the minor league players already, including all the Jays prospects, except for Chacin, who really wasn't rated as a prospect until this year. Only downside is you have to restart your dynasty, but it's current up to last week. COMN if you need it.
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#29080) #
The praise for Wells scoring from 2nd on an infield error should be tempered somewhat by the brain cramp that kept him from tagging and going to 3rd on Rios' deep flyball out to RF.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#29081) #
Thx for the link 6-4-3. I'll use those as a starting point then tweak them. I tried to dl some updated rosters using Action Replay but for some reason I can't transfer them from the PC to my Xbox. I heard the AR memory card doesn't work for certain games. I'm little too broke to buy an official Microsoft memory card right now.

I can't wait for next years version. They better fix the lefty bug, franchise player progression, the Fenway bug, and lack of steals though.
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#29082) #
Unrelated to anything, Josh Phelps homered off a RHP this afternoon.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#29083) #
The Jays are 7th worst in AL in team ERA i.e. bang in the middle of the pack.

No. The team ERA is 4.94 after yesterday (tied with Detroit).

The only team worse is Kansas City.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#29084) #
Sorry, yes, my mistake about the ERA.

I still don't blame Patterson. He had nothing to work with.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#29085) #
Kelvim left a couple of pithes up in the zone and it's now Oakland up 2 - 0
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#29086) #
I still don't blame Patterson.

I don't disagree. That breaks down to Starters 8th in the league, relievers 14th.

I'm inclined to blame Tosca and Ricciardi and Ted Rogers as much as anyone for that. If blame must be assigned.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#29087) #
I'm not really assigning blame for blame's sake. It's probably not very constructive, although no doubt we will want to blame someone for this awful season (and the much reduced prospects for next season). I just mean that I don't think that Patterson should lose his job.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#29088) #
Great inning inside the GM box.

Nice to see the battle scars.

Looks like the Jays use MLB Gameday.

What the hell was League doing?
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#29089) #
If Eric Chavez hadn't missed six weeks, would there be any doubt who AL MVP is?
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#29090) #
the rubbish that was signed for the bullpen is not Patterson's fault

I'm not saying anything about the Patterson situation one way or the other, but you're joking, right?

in 2003:

Terry Adams - 66AP, 68OIP, 68H, 20ER, 1HR, 23BB, 51K, 2.65ERA.

Justin Speier - 72AP, 9SV, 73.1IP, 73H, 33ER, 11HR, 23BB, 66K, 4.05ERA.

Kerry Ligtenberg - 68AP, 1SV, 59.1IP, 60H, 22ER, 9HR, 14BB, 47K, 3.34ERA.

Valerio de los Santos - 51AP, 52IP, 45H, 26ER, 8HR, 25BB, 39K, 4.50ERA.

How in the holy Hell could someone have thought that would turn out to be rubbish? Going into the season, signing four guys of that quality would have been thought impossible. In a perfect world, with those numbers, It could have been Speier in the 7th, Ligtenberg and Santos in the 8th and Adams to close it out. I would hardly call signing four guys capable of making a game 6-innings rubbish.

How they all performed so badly this year is beyond me, though. It boggles the mind.
_6-4-3 - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#29091) #
I'm sure that they'll fix the lefty glitch in MVP baseball, and the stolen base thing. I also hope that they fix another glitch that the game has, that when you edit a player, his contract goes back to his "real" value, his hot/cold zones change, and if it's a pitcher, his pitches lose their unique movement (IE: Zito loses his curve). If they can do that, and tweak the franchise mode a bit (so that relievers don't ask for crazy contracts. I never understood that one), I'd be happy.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#29092) #
6-4-3, thank God for PC mods and the hard working individuals that have made that game worlds better; they really saved MVP 2004 from being a complete disaster.

P.S. I don't say this often, but kudos to TSN for the informal broadcasting atmosphere today; it's been a refreshing look, and the guests have been quality.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#29093) #
44 pitches for the Doc through 5 1/3; I say "damn!"
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#29094) #
Fozzy,

Honestly, I don't remember those figures but I personally wasn't terribly impressed by the signings in the offseason, nor that confident for the season. It's too long ago for me to remember why, but I do remember thinking that Speier was a good one, Adams okay, and DLS and Ligtenberg poor (although I think this was because of Ligtenberg's contract rather than his performance). The problem is the DLS didn't show anything from spring training on (not inconsistently with those figures, which are only moderate) and Ligtenberg has a bad and probably permanent hip problem. Once Adams was shown to be not good, the bullpen needed more bodies -- and not the minor leaguers they got.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#29095) #
50,498 announced today at the 'Dome
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#29096) #
The Yankees have to be pretty pleased with what Kevin Brown has done today.

Doc at 56 pitches (!) through 6. Nine of them just now to Lofton.

Zito's only given up 1 hit through 4.

Hello, Aaron Hill.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#29097) #
As far as I remember, there was a real shortage of lefty relievers on the market last year. On top of that, Jason Kershner looked good enough for 65-80 effective innings going into the start of the year; to think he'd struggle at Syracuse and be DFA'd by season's end would be unbelievable, but sadly, here we are. It was because of the high hopes of him that Trever Miller (who I'm pegging on being back here next year) was released.

Aaron Hill is on the broadcast.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#29098) #
Y'owch! The O-Dog bites Brown with a stand-up triple against the wall!

With his defence, if Hudson isn't the unanimous gold glove winner, heads will roll.
_Grimlock - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#29099) #
Man, the Yankees are heels. BOOO!!!
_Paul S - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#29100) #
I completely forgot about the Fenway bug. It has cost me many a shutout.

Anyone know how up to date the PS2 online rosters are? I take it they don't account for the scabs and Barry, but making them all over again shouldn't be that bad. And there's less of them now like Reed, Osik, and Spencer. MAN, creating pitchers from scratch was a pain before I figured out how to do it.
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#29101) #
Don't mean to jinx the A's, but Zito is throwing an unlikely 1-hitter through 5 innings.
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#29102) #
Don't mean to jinx the A's, but Zito is throwing an unlikely 1-hitter through 5 innings.

And thanks to Fox only about 10% of the country can watch it.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#29103) #
Brett Tomko just stranded Dodgers on 2nd and 3rd - Alvarex ground out, Izturis pop out.

Nice play. Nice relay by Thrillhouse. :-)
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#29104) #
Vlad ties it up in Oakland with a two run homer to straight away centre!
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#29105) #
And how often do you see a great relay throw followed by some man strength the next half inning?
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#29106) #
That's sure a special skill Lofton has, turning deep fly balls into triples. Paging Carlos Beltran.
_Paul S - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#29107) #
If Bernie would've been out there it would've been worse, if that's possible. Crosby should be in CF.
_RhyZa - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#29108) #
oh, thanks Rod.. I actually thought John Flaherty WAS Jorge Posada behind the plate. ; )
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#29109) #
Oakland bounces back - RBI 2b by Miller scores Dye. 3-2
_jsoh - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#29110) #
Somewhere, in the bowels of Stats Inc., are numbers that prove that Wells and Hinkse lead the league in unproductive pop-ups.

sigh.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#29111) #
Donnelly in for Anaheim.
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#29112) #
Regardless of how the AL West finishes, has Guerrero become the top candidate for league MVP, especially given the extra weighting given to late-in-the-season games?
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#29113) #
A's keep on keeping on - up 4 - 2 now.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#29114) #
in unproductive pop-ups.

As opposed to productive pop ups? :-)
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#29115) #
Granted, it's the Yankees JV squad, but Halladay looks great today.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#29116) #
Truly a cool broadcast from TSN. Showed us around the stadium, interviews with JP and Aaron Hill, showed us JP's box, gave Scott Carson airtime....

A kudos to them.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#29117) #
Scutaro with the RBI single off Donnelly. Oakland gets its two run lead back.

Doc at 85 - bring him back for the 9th?
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#29118) #
And Grissom with a solo HR - Giants up 3-0.

This is fun...
_Paul S - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#29119) #
What harm can it do to work Roy now? Although, that was said last year when he was going 9 all the time in Sept. and that may have helped lead to this year.

Oh, he's out.
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#29120) #
Come on, let's see Hawaiian Punch Out!
_jsoh - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#29121) #
As opposed to productive pop ups?

Well. I'd consider a nice flare to short left which results in A-Rod, Jeter and Matsui all colliding, and the ball rolling to the fence to be productive :)
_RhyZa - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#29122) #
Off Topic: Last Night's Game

I had 500's so the first few innings I moved around checking out different angles to view the game from, first I sat right behind the plate near this woman with a 'Worlds Biggest Fan' jersey on and a whole bunch of Jay pins on her hat and this other dude in a Wells jersey and a little cowbell type thing who kept on high fiving each other.. oh man, I love fan participation and all but it was a little ridiculous she would be like 'Cmon Davviiidd, Lets Goooo' and the tone of her voice is more like a fed up one than one of encouragement, although I'm sure she doesn't intend it that way. Anyway, needless to say I moved again after that inning and kept moving around, couple innings later I moved down to the 200's, lots of school kids in attendance, and dare I say not many Yank fans? I guess they're gearing for the playoffs and chose to pass with the makeshift lineups in effect, or they simply had not much to cheer about.

Adams (a player through and through), GQ, Rios (on one AB he was pressing to take one deep last night), Bush have all made great debuts and look promising to be mainstays in the future. Gross (depending on what your expectations are.. I read an article comparing him as a prospect to a Rusty Greer type) and Crozier (too soon to write him off, but seems to have some holes in his swing?) not so much so, and it was just painful watching Hinske trying to hit El Duque's offspeed stuff. The roof came off with the pizza promotion, which I didn't know whether to be happy or partly embarassed about.. considering that the leadup to Bush's final out to seal the 2 hit shutout was pretty good, but soon after everyone just chooses to spill out (and there was still time to catch the train), at least give the kid a bit of an ovation people.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#29123) #
Barry Zito came through big time - 7 innings, 3 hits, 2 ER. He's at 114 pitches, so expect to see the pen.
_Paul S - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#29124) #
I'll never mock that goofy hippie again... until the next time I do. I DO NOT want to face the ANA lineup or bullpen.
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#29125) #
Ah, nothing like an easy save.
_My Names not Ry - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#29126) #
about Crozier, dont worry about the holes in his swing, remember a young Delgado couldnt hit a breaking ball to save his life,.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#29127) #
Batista gets the save. He wasn't hit hard, a high chopper, a bloop double, and an RBI ground out.

Batista hasn't been that bad as a reliever. He has a 3.29 ERA and hasn't blown a save. Unfortunately, he's still walking 4 batters per nine. He's only walked 1 in his last 5 relief appearances though.

Looks like Batista at closer will be a reality next season. Which starter can we get to replace him....that's the biggest question.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#29128) #
Anaheim are threatening in the 8th. Men on first and second and one out. Rincon coming in to pitch to Erstad.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#29129) #
Brett Tomko with a two-hit shutout through seven.

Anaheim threatening - 1st and 2nd with one out. Rincon in to face Erstad.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#29130) #
4-4 in Oakland. Erstad rips one off the wall.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#29131) #
Wow, two runs off his first pitch!
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#29132) #
Hello, Gwyn. Erstad ties it up, two run 2b.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#29133) #
Rincon gives up a double! Tied 4-4.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#29134) #
Erstad with a 2 RBI double. Game tied at 4. Ricciardi is not the only Moneyball GM with a bullpen problem.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#29135) #
Shall I assume all three of you have MLB.TV? ;)
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#29136) #
Dotel coming in to face Glaus after Vlad was IBB'd.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#29137) #
Dotel in to face Glaus with runners on 1st and 2nd, 1 out. I wish I was watching this on TV instead of Gameday.

Prediction: Dotel K's Glaus.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#29138) #
Heh, yeah I ponied up the $2.95 today, money well spent so far :)
_JackFoley - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#29139) #
I'm watching on mlb.tv and pulling for the Angels. I'll predict a double for Glaus.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#29140) #
Props for Fox on showing this game!!

I wish I could also catch the Dodgers/Giants
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#29141) #
I wish I was watching this on TV instead of Gameday.

No kidding. A's lose, they're out. And what's on my local FOX affiliate right now? Some movie with a baby crying. He's probably mad because he can't watch this game.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#29142) #
This is about the only time I'm happy to have mlb.tv rather than any option of real tv. The picture quality gets on my nerves, but at this time of year it's great to have no blackout and flick between games.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#29143) #
LOL to Wilner's clip with the Boston guy saying Terry Adams gives up a lot of gopher balls. Matt LeCroy would agree.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#29144) #
Halo's have the lead!!!
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#29145) #
You guys are faster than Gameday. I should just refresh here.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#29146) #
Anderson RBI single. 5-4 Angels. Wow.
_JackFoley - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#29147) #
Well played, Mr. Anderson.
_jsoh - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#29148) #
Oooh. Zito looked pissed in the dugout. 5-4 Halos.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#29149) #
What the heck has been up with Dotel lately? This guy hasn't looked like a very good pickup by the A's recently.

You wonder how they would be if Beltre was in their lineup vs. Dotel.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#29150) #
Tell you what, though, the Angel's tv commentators are outrageously partisan. Most irritating to listen to.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#29151) #
K-Rod and Percival to close it out, I'm assuming. Tall order for the A's.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#29152) #
The fine folks at Athletics Nation are pissed at the bullpen. Can't blame them.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#29153) #
Lead-off walk for Dye. The A's may have some life.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#29154) #
If I was in the A's nation I would be even more pissed - looking across way at the best releif in the game.

Shields, K-rod, Percivil. Hands down the best.
_Paul D - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#29155) #
Man, Oakland needs to win this game, then we get a one game playoff tomorrow!
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#29156) #
Wow... Lead off walk then 3 Ks in a row.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#29157) #
K-Rod amazes me every time I see him.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#29158) #
What a pitch to Crosby to end the inning. Crossed the plate at 81mph, Crobsy never had a chance.
_Fozzy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#29159) #
LOL to Wilner's clip with the Boston guy saying Terry Adams gives up a lot of gopher balls. Matt LeCroy would agree.

hard to believe the guy only gave up 1, count 'em, 1 homerun in 68 innings the year before - sometimes baseball can be a cruel sport.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#29160) #
I've just noticed that the Minnesota-Cleveland game has been suspended in the 12th because they have to use the field for a college football game! The baseball game is put on ice and finishes tomorrow, before the scheduled game.

What on earth were they thinking of when they scheduled a clash in the stadium???
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#29161) #
Ok ok I retract on my previous post Hudson straight across is worth a middle releiver. If his name is K-rod.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#29162) #
Hey, Larry Bowa just got fired.
_Gwyn - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#29163) #
Hey, Larry Bowa just got fired.

Why now? Why not twenty years ago?
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#29164) #
Yay!

GO HALOS GO!!

Hopefully this will end the rediculous love affair with Beane and his Oakland chokers... errr, Athletics.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#29165) #
I love watching K-Rod pitch.

His stuff is so sick it gives me the flu.

This guy should be the closer.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#29166) #
This guy should be OUR closer.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#29167) #
If I were an A's fan I'd be more pissed off about the sudden implosion of Mulder (and, to a lesser extent, Hudson) than about the bullpen which has been pretty good the second half.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#29168) #
This guy should be OUR closer.

I agree! Let's get Anaheim on the phone now! ;)
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#29169) #
Hopefully this will end the rediculous love affair with Beane and his Oakland chokers... errr, Athletics./i>

What are you even talking about? Everyone in this thread is cheering for the Angels, and I see/hear way more Beane-bashers than Beane-supporters.

Love affair my ass.
_JackFoley - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#29170) #
Last chance for the A's. There is almost nothing better than the last weekend of the baseball season.
_Ryan Lind hates - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#29171) #
Italice deactivated.
_JackFoley - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#29172) #
I want to be the italics killer for once.
_JackFoley - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#29173) #
Foiled again!
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#29174) #
Percival on to shut down the...italics!
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#29175) #
You misunderstood me Ryan.

I was talking about the love affair for Beane in general, not on this site or even this thread.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#29176) #
Is till don't buy it. Most of the media hates Beane, and probably about 70% of fans bash him and the A's.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#29177) #
Everyone in this thread is cheering for the Angels

I'm cheering for the A's to win this game, so tomorrow's becomes a do-or-die game. I don't know who I want to win the series, I just want to see the damned game on TV!
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#29178) #
Scary thing is this is K-Rod's 2nd full season.

Can he get better or will he implode?
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#29179) #
Rob, any reason you turned on italics and turned them off again?

Top of the order up to face Percival.
_Paul D - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#29180) #
I'm cheering for the A's because they get bashed so much everywhere that I want to see them win everything.

Not looking good now though.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#29181) #
And the Halo's did it!!! Back to the post-season.

And as for the A's ... arghh
Losing 9 of your last 12 games will do this to you (especially dropping 4/5 to the Halo's)
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#29182) #
Rob, any reason you turned on italics and turned them off again?

I find it works better to turn one on and turn three or four off (just to be safe), but that's just me.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#29183) #
Well, time to check out the other LA-based team. Dodgers have two on, nobody out in the bottom of the ninth, down 3-0. LA up two games on SF, so a Dodger win takes the division.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#29184) #
Escobar being interviewed now... just what us Jays fans need.
_Paul D - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#29185) #
Well, we should at least get some good games to decide the wildcard in the NL.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#29186) #
I wanted to cheer for the Giants in the post-season, so hopefully they make it in.

I don't trust Dustin Hermansen...
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#29187) #
just what us Jays fans need.

Batting first, second, and fifth for the Dodgers today?
Cesar, Jayson, Shawn.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#29188) #
Ryan - Who are the Giants top 3 starters come the post season?

I see Schmidt as #1, Rueter #2, But do you think Tomko or Lowry is going to get the #3 slot?

Tomko has been pitching like a good pitcher lately, but Lowry has been awsome.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#29189) #
Jose Hernandez walked? What's going on?
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#29190) #
If I were an A's fan I'd be more pissed off about the sudden implosion of Mulder (and, to a lesser extent, Hudson) than about the bullpen which has been pretty good the second half.


The A's bullpen blew 28 save opportunities this season according to the folks at AN.
_Paul D - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#29191) #
Don't know if it's been confirmed in this thread as being official, but according to ESPN Paterson and Breeden were fired today.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#29192) #
Hee-Seop Choi is pinch-hitting for LA with the bases loaded, down 3 runs. I really wish I could watch this game...
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#29193) #
I second that Rob - Instead Andromeda is on Fox.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#29194) #
Escobar has been the BEST starter on a 92 win playoff team. If Carpenter were healthy, he'd probably be #1 starter for the Cardinals. What could have been....

The Angels now have the option of holding off using Washburn until Game 1 or 2, depending on how much rest they want to give Colon. I wouldn't sleep on the Angels in the playoffs. They have the best bullpen on the planet, the MVP of the AL, and three good starters to rely on.

Watching Escobar in the playoffs will be interesting.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#29195) #
Christiansen is in now for the Giants. Who's the SF closer?
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#29196) #
Well if you want to bring up some Nostalga... well We could have held off trading Boomer for Sirotka (who knows maybe he could have resigned with us).
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#29197) #
Ernie Whitt will be the bench coach next season, and I forgot the name of the new pitching coach, but he's from the minor leagues.
_CaramonLS - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#29198) #
Rob - Dustin Hermanson. *Shudder*
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#29199) #
Arnsberg is the new pitching coach. Same guy who was the pitching coach in Florida when Burnett's arm was abused. Should I be worried?
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#29200) #
The manager from AAA Brad Arnsberg is the pitching coach.
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#29201) #
Hoohoo LA now just 1 run behind, with 1 out and the bases loaded...
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#29202) #
... and Jason Werth up to bat
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#29203) #
Caramon, I would probably go with Tomko and his 1.78 September ERA.

Ouch, the Dodgers score two off a walk and an error.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#29204) #
Where are you guys getting this news about the coaches?
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#29205) #
And Werth ties it 3-3, still 1 out with bases loaded

Looks bad for SF in the West right now. Of course they are still in the wild card race.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#29206) #
Lot of people jumping off the Bay Bridge today...

Relief! Relief! As Felipe brings in his 4th pitcher of the inning.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#29207) #
The luck of the ex-Blue Jays continues, as Werth singles home a run to tie the game at 3.

Note for fantasy baseball players: Ex Blue Jays = Good.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#29208) #
Wow. This must be a nightmare for fans in the bay area.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#29209) #
http://tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=100619
Ryan COMN
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#29210) #
Where are you guys getting this news about the coaches?

It was at the bottom of ESPN's game report (today's game...)
_Andrew K - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#29211) #
What a way win to win the NL West -- a walkoff grand slam by Finley.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#29212) #
Ryan: I read it in the Globe today, and I was trying to find a way to bypass the INSIDER tag at globeandmail.com, but I guess you already have some links there. ;)
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#29213) #
Thanks Ron, but I already read that about Patterson. I'm talking about this other news...about Breedan being fired, and the stuff about Whitt and Arnsberg. Where is that coming from?
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#29214) #
Boy has Finley been good for the Dodgers. A lot of people said that trade would cause them to miss the playoffs, well they were wrong.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#29215) #
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2FArticleNews%2FTPStory%2FLAC%2F20041002%2FBLAIR02%2FTPSports%2FBaseball&ord=2866048&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false
COMN for the teaser to the Blair article. It mentions Arnsberg.

I subscribe to the Globe and Mail. Shouldn't I be able to read it online?
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#29216) #
Oh. My. God.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#29217) #
I don't know where that Breedan or White stuff came from. Either way JP will tell all on Monday.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#29218) #
A bit late there on the Finley slam, Magpie. ;)
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#29220) #
A single, three walks, an error, a walkoff GS.

That's taking the apple...
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#29221) #
A bit late there on the Finley slam, Magpie.

Shock.

And awe.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#29222) #
A bit late there on the Finley slam, Magpie.

Shock.

And awe.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#29223) #
A bit late there on the Finley slam, Magpie.

Shock.

And awe.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#29224) #
How did that happen?
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#29225) #
Remember when the Dodgers made those trades, and the media trashed DePodesta and one guy said he just "handed the Marlins the pennant?"

Ha. Haha. Hahaha.

This still sucks though. Arggh, who to cheer for in the postseason? I despise the Sox, Yanks, and Braves. I dislike the Cardinals and the Angels. I guess it's go Twins and Dodgers. Blech.
Pistol - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#29226) #
the stuff about Whitt and Arnsberg. Where is that coming from?

Roundup!
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#29227) #
The dead tree version of the Jeff Blair story says Whitt will be the bench coach, Arnsberg the pitching coach, Butterfield "will likely return", Breeden "won't be back", and the Jays asked for permission from an unnamed team to talk to their first-base coach, "a hire that will be made by Gibbons."

I despise the Sox, Yanks, and Braves. I dislike the Cardinals and the Angels. I guess it's go Twins and Dodgers. Blech.

That's only seven teams. You still have Houston or San Fran to cheer for!
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#29228) #
I'm going to really enjoy the post season.

2 of my 4 fav teams are in it (Yanks and Red Sox). I also wouldn't mind seeing the Twins or Angels do well. Basically I will have a team to root for all the way to the World Series. I don't care about any of the NL teams although I do have a soft spot for the Canadians Larry Walker and Eric Gagne.
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#29229) #
Remember when the Dodgers made those trades, and the media trashed DePodesta and one guy said he just "handed the Marlins the pennant?"

What's really nuts is that he got ripped for the trade - then the trade didn't work at all (Choi hit .169 for LA and Penny could only make three starts) - and they win the division anyway.

Talk about stumbling in sh*t and coming up smelling like a rose...
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#29230) #
Well, the Wild Card looks like this:

San Francisco will win tomorrow, since Los Angeles will mail it in for the entire game. So they are tied with Houston, for argument's sake. Houston has two games remaining, tonight and tomorrow at home against Colorado. Lose both, go home. Win both, they're in. Split them and things get interesting.

Who has homefield in a possible Astros-Giants game on Monday?
_Magpie - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#29231) #
who to cheer for in the postseason?

There's still Houston and the Giants fighting over the WC...

But its easy for me. Go Twins!!

And in the NL... this Braves team, I like. Didn't have much use for most of their predecessors....

Weren't they supposed to lose 85 games? They've now 63-26 over the last three months.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#29232) #
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20040915&content_id=859158&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp
Who has homefield in a possible Astros-Giants game on Monday?

Frisco won the coin toss. They would play at home.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#29233) #
So Houston would have to go from Houston to SF, then back east to play Atlanta in the first round. Must be tough -- they must get Tuesday off.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#29234) #
Remember when the Dodgers made those trades, and the media trashed DePodesta and one guy said he just "handed the Marlins the pennant?"

What's really nuts is that he got ripped for the trade - then the trade didn't work at all (Choi hit .169 for LA and Penny could only make three starts) - and they win the division anyway.

Talk about stumbling in sh*t and coming up smelling like a rose...


Well, he also used that trade to acquire Finley, and he got rid of Encarnacion, which gave more playing time to Werth. Those are huge plusses. Choi, Werth, and Finley were all invloved in that 7 run ninth...
_The Real Coach - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#29235) #
Well I'm sure you'll hear Billy Beane cry about how he can't compete with a team with the Angel's payroll. But bottom line, the Angels do the little things that the A's don't. Players like David Eckstein and Figgins do things that don't always show up in the boxscore.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#29236) #
You see? The above post illustrates what about 70% of fans think. Billy Beane does not have a "love affair."
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#29237) #
I was at the game. Wells' catch on a bomb to centre saved the game. Considering who Batista faced, that was far from a confidence-inspiring outing. The first hit was a cheapie, but after he got hit.

Lofton led off with a high weakly hit chopper that he beat out. The batter who followed him hit a well placed bloop double that wasn't hit very hard. Giambi than followed with a similar bloop that wasn't hit hard but it was caught by Hinske. Clark followed with a ground out to Adams which scored a run. Than Sierra flied out on hard hit ball, and that was it.

Batista was not hit hard today.
_Jobu - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#29238) #
Got back from the game. There was something incredibly electric about Thrillhouse's realy today. I don't know what it was but I was on my feet with the rest of the stadium and there was a huge cheer that was let out after the anticipatory silence. Haven't felt like that since Sparky's "It's too loud in here!" broken bat single.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#29239) #
I disagree that the Dodgers mail it in tomorrow. They have the chance to end the season of their arch rivals, they have to go for the jugular. They still have Monday guaranteed as an off-day. I think you do what you can to kill SF dead. If the Dodgers mail it in, it will be an embarassing sidebar to a possible round two match-up of SF vs. LA.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#29240) #
It's always a good time to bitch about Joe Torre. How about this guy? He starts Matsui for "streak purposes" and then immediately benches him after his first AB. This is a slap in the face to Cal Ripken, Lou Gehrig and the other great Iron Men.

So we know that Torre is acutely aware of personal records. He must have noticed that in these last two nothing games Delgado is just 2 RBIs shy of having 7 straight seasons of 100 RBIs - a rare, rare feat. But Torre chooses to intentionally walk him early in the game with a runner in scoring position.

I hate it when people associate the word "classy" with Joe Torre.

However, I did read that Torre sat out due to suspension today. So, maybe it wasn't his decision to intentionally walk Delgado (it most likely was, he must have decided before the series that they would intentionally walk in this situation).

But that Matsui stunt was cheap. "Streak purposes" - that's lame.
Craig B - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#29241) #
The Real Coach

Bull****. You're no coach.

Anyway, definitely full credit to the Angels who assembled a killer team. I should mention, though, that you guys (the A's haters) are supposed to show sour grapes when the guy you hates WINS. Not when he loses.
Craig B - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#29242) #
the rediculous love affair with Beane and his Oakland chokers

Can I just make a comment on this? Now anyone who knows me, will know that I DO NOT like the Oakland Athletics. Not at all. Never have, and never will, though they clearly aren't in the Yankees/Mets/Boston/Atlanta group of intense dislikes. But I don't like the A's.

But to suggest that there's some "love affair" with the A's out there is ridiculous. If there is a team that inspires more hate, more dislike, more passionate screeds against them, than the Oakland A's I would be very surprised.

From both the fans and the media, the almost universal theme is anti-Oakland. Oakland, probably because of the success Beane had with them early on, are judged by an entirely different standard from the 29 other teams. Now I don't think Beane did a great job the last two years - not by a long shot - but I am flabbergasted by the hatred he inspires. I can't believe it's just people taking Moneyball too seriously... but whatever it is, I can't put my finger on it.
Mike Green - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#29243) #
Seconded. The As and Angels are fine teams, with fine organizations behind them. As are the Twins. I have high hopes for thrilling playoffs in the AL, and if I had to place my imaginary nickels, they would be on the Twins and Angels. I figure I might walk away with a couple of imaginary dimes.
Craig B - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#29244) #
I hate it when people associate the word "classy" with Joe Torre.

KT, I totally understand where you're coming from but I will say this. The fact that Torre puts up with the s*** he gets from the press in New York, and hasn't been brought up on homicide charges yet, definitely earns him the "classy" tag.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#29245) #
It's nice for the Jays to have this uplifting finish to their season. I was at the game last night. A buddy and I went to a bar after where we saw Rob Faulds and John Cerutti. They were hyped! I was wearing my Jays sweatshirt (which I just picked up on clearance at the bullpen store) and Cerutti stopped ME on my way to the bathroom and appeared ready to give an open embrace: "And how are YOU!?!" Wow. I was overwhelmed and kind of drunk and didn't have anything intelligent to say so I just congratulated the two on being one of the best baseball duos on TV (I really believe this). Jason Frasor was bouncing around. Then I saw Josh Towers looking like he was leading Dave Bush out on a celebratory - and well deserved - night on the town! It was great being able to give a personal congratulations to Bush on his outing, he returned a humble "thank you".

So the season from hell has an upbeat finish. I can't wait for tomorrow's game. Bulldog Towers who will possibly face The Real Yankees.
_Jobu - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#29246) #
Wow, what magical bar was that?
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#29247) #
"Wow, what magical bar was that?"

Sorry, Jobu. I feel I should stop short at posting the name of the bar on the Internet, for the sake of those individuals who like to go there. It would be different if I were speaking with you in person though...
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#29248) #
The "bar" was probably the Whiskey Go Go:)
_Jobu - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#29249) #
That's cool. Comming to tomorrow's Cheer Club or the Beer Club Leigh and I are trying to set up? Drop me a line if you're interested.
Coach - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#29250) #
This was an excellent day at the ballpark. Everyone can breathe a big Cy of relief at Doc's performance -- sure, it wasn't the Yankees' "A" lineup and they had nothing to play for, but Roy had great stuff and impressive command.

It was fun to see Aaron Hill again and the other Webster winners for the first time. Robert and I also enjoyed chatting with Ken Joyce, the Charleston skipper who won the organization's Bobby Mattick Player Development Award. In an upcoming interview, you'll get his first-hand impressions of Shaun Marcum, Robby Diaz and some of the other prospects he worked so closely with this year.

Sometime between now and the winter meetings, we'll be sitting down for another exclusive with J.P., looking back and ahead, then in anticipation of John Gibbons returning as manager, we've set up a phone interview in January, for a spring training preview.

The playoff races have been amazing. A walkoff grand slam to clinch, a deserving bunch of Angels reminding us of 2002, and the Cubs finishing their self-destruction. I can't wait for the postseason drama; while my heart is with the Cards, their rotation is a shambles right now and it's impossible to pick a WS winner.

If all that wasn't exciting enough, it looks like my Toronto Walrus will win the BBFL championship tomorrow. I've been clinging to the lead since last Saturday, but Head-to-Head is quite volatile, and nothing was certain. Watching AGF's Rivera enter in a non-save situation today felt like the clinching moment.
_The Real Coach - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#29251) #
Now I don't think Beane did a great job the last two years

What the heck are you talking about? Do you think this JP guy did a better job? Look at the A's record over the last couple of years smart guy; that's pretty good for a team with that payroll.
Coach - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#29252) #
TRC, are you suggesting I'm not real?
_Jobu - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#29253) #
In case I was vauge earlier, the Beer Club invitation is naturally open to any and all interested GTA'ers. COMN.
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#29254) #
What's the record for RBI by a leadoff hitter? Damon is up to 93.

As much as I was rooting for the A's over the Angels (vindication for smart management), the Angels did have a much better RF/RA run differential (100 to 50) and deserved the division title. Maybe all the things Eckstein and Figgins did that didn't show up in the boxscores was responsible for the 50-run edge. Don't underestimate the power of productive outs. ;)

Maybe if the Big Three had been a little more Big Threeish and Dotel had been a little more Dotelish, this would have been a playoff tune-up weekend for Beane's boys. As it is, the anti-Beane rhetoric should start earlier than usual this year.

The Angels sure do seem to have enlisted the aid of Providence once again. Can't wait to see how this will play out. I do know that the chemistry camp will have a field day with this team, succeeding even after (because of?) dumping Guillen.
_Ryan01 - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#29255) #
"TRC", the A's won 102 and 103 games in 2001, 2002. The dropped down to 96 last year and down to 90-91 this year. I think Beane deserves a whole lot of credit for assembling that team. But I don't think Craig is out of line to question some of his latest moves when they have quite clearly declined in that time span (I can assure you he's not making these claims purely in hindsight either).

The Angels deserve some credit too. They had to spend a whole lot of money to do it, but they spent it on some pretty solid guys in Colon, Vlad and Escobar.
_Andrew - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#29256) #
Hi, lurker here (great site btw).

I'm in a bit of a predicament for tomorrow. I have an extra AMAZING seat for tomorrows game, and when I say amazing thats an understatment. It's right BESIDE (not behind) the yankees dugout. I was planning on taking my dad but he has to work unforunatly. I really only have one friend whos somewhat into the jays and he can't go either. Even my mom doesn't want to go. (despite the main people i'm asking being my parents and my poor spelling i'm not really a kid i'm 21). Does anyone want to ditch their $2 seat and come with me? I'd like some money for the ticket however I'd rather give it to a fan for as much as they want to pay vs selling it to a scalper who will turn a profit on it.

I've never sat in these seats and i'm super excited even if I have to go solo. If anyones intrested COMN for email. The one condition is i'd like to meet just after 11:30ish as I'd like to go early maybe get Delagdo to sign a ball.

If no one replies to me by tonight i'll hopefully just drag another friend.

BTW count me as one who was rooting for the A's I thought this year they'd finally get past the first round..
robertdudek - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#29257) #
If there is a team that inspires more hate, more dislike, more passionate screeds against them, than the Oakland A's I would be very surprised.

Craig, may I introduce you to ... the New York Yankees.
_Matthew E - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#29258) #
If there is a team that inspires more hate, more dislike, more passionate screeds against them, than the Oakland A's I would be very surprised.

How about the Blue Jays? I mean only within the Toronto papers, though.

Okay, I'm exaggerating.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#29259) #
I am reading an Oakland A's message board, and while trying to weed out the ramblings of angry fans, I realized that the concensus on that board feel that certain players will not be back next year. Of course, they are just fans, but the players they were mentioning seem like pretty good candidates to be dealt.

So I, Scott Levy, am going on record in saying that the 2005 TOronto Blue Jays WILL 100% feature AT LEAST one of the following players, either through free agency or trades (I don't know off hand which of the following is a FA or not):

LHP Mark Redman
RHP Jim Mecir
LHP Arthur Rhodes
LHP Ricardo Rincon
RHP Chad Braford
LHP Chris Hammond

At least one, maybe two. Quote me on this in three months.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#29260) #
I'd love to have Bradford and/or Rincon. I'm not sure of the salary/stats of the other players. Redman was solid last year, don't hear too much about him recently.
_Jonny German - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#29261) #
2 of my 4 fav teams are in it (Yanks and Red Sox).

And a third one is the Blue Jays? That's a novel approach... I guess you're never disappointed, anyways. Personally, I detest the Yankees, loathe the Red Sox, scorn the Orioles, dislike the Devil Rays, and am firmly against anybody else that stands in the path of the furtherance of the Toronto cause.

Craig makes a good point. As does Robert. I resolve the conflicting aspects of the two points in my mind with the feeling that screeds against the Yankees are well-deserved, whereas screeds against the A's are mostly just uninformed. I like the Oakland A's, mostly because I like the way Billy Beane runs the show. I do not apologise for this.

Playoff rooting? I'll go with the Twins in the AL, followed by the Angels. I dislike the Yankees a little more than I dislike the Red Sox.

In the NL, I'll say LA, then St. Louis, which means I'm against Atlanta and whichever of Houston and San Fran makes it.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#29262) #
Eventually though, JP is going to have to do something more than raid Oakland's cabinet. What's the list at? Hinske, Miller, Menechino, Lilly... I think it's generally agreed that acquiring Lilly was the top JP move, but what pieces - that have worked out - has he claimed from other organizations besides Oakland? I'm not talking about the draft; and I'm not being overly critical, I just want to know. I guess Josh Towers would be one...

I sometimes get that feeling articulated well in the movie Fight Club with the Blue Jays roster: "a copy of a copy of a copy..."
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#29263) #
In a classless move this afternoon Zambrano nailed Chipper Jones in the hand. I'm not sure if it was intentional. Zambrano shook his head after, possibly in frustration - but Chipper gave him a mean stare while having his hand attended to. Anybody know the status of Chipper? That would suck if he had to miss the playoffs - not that I'm a huge Braves fan, but I just hate it when star players go down in the post-season, whether I favour the team or not (unless it's Kevin Brown).
_Caino - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#29264) #
"BTW count me as one who was rooting for the A's I thought this year they'd finally get past the first round.."

- Same with me. I found myself rooting for the Twins and A's this year for no better reason than some continuing encouragement that low budget teams can win.
O well, Go Twins

"I'd love to have Bradford and/or Rincon. I'm not sure of the salary/stats of the other players. Redman was solid last year, don't hear too much about him recently."

- Dido. Is it just me, or is the Jays pen looking quite solid for next year. Depending on the 3rd starter we pick up, our staff could be pretty wikid come spring time.
_The Real Coach - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#29265) #
TRC, are you suggesting I'm not real?

You lost your title of Coach when you banned this poor fellow for asking a legitimate question:

Hi Jerry,

Do you think baseball is ready for an openly gay player?


As a Real Coach, I don't care about what a guy does with his johnson as long as he can lay down a bunt when I ask him to.
_Matthew E - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#29266) #
I don't care about what a guy does with his johnson as long as he can lay down a bunt when I ask him to.

That sounds like it'd hurt.
_Jonny German - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#29267) #
KT, I find it incredible that you can follow this team closely and still come to the same juvenile conclusion as various uniformed members of the Toronto media, that the Blue Jays are Oakland v2. Last offseason the Blue Jays brough in more ex-Orioles than ex-A's. Why no accusations about Toronto being Baltimore north? Sean Douglass, Bobby Kielty, Mike Nakamura, and Kevin Frederick all came out of the Twins organization. Why no clever lines about the Blue Jays being twins of Twins? If I thought the GM of my favourite team was so devoid of original thought that his modus operandi was to simply acquire as many players as possible from his previous employer, I would find a new rooting interest.
_Jobu - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#29268) #
I don't care about what a guy does with his johnson as long as he can lay down a bunt when I ask him to.

That sounds like it'd hurt.


Or a vauge Sparky reference.
_Rob - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#29269) #
but what pieces - that have worked out - has he claimed from other organizations besides Oakland?

Frank Catalanotto was non-tendered (I believe) so I don't think that counts as "acquired from Texas."
But I don't think you mean free agents (or waiver claims, despite the use of the word "claims"), so let's look at his trades:

- Justin Speier seems to be set for next year.
- Frasor and Crozier were obtained this year, still too early to tell, probably.
- John Hattig? I realize he hasn't played above AA yet, but he did help win a championship and he got Terry Adams out of town -- not to mention he provided us with what will be one of the greatest Box Phrases ever.
- Politte and Kielty are the only other players JP has acquired in trades from teams not run by Billy Beane, and both are no longer with the organization.

So I see one: Speier. Huh, I thought it would be higher than that. However, a GM's job is not just trades, though. Free agents, waiver claims, drafting, and Rule 5 picks are important steps in building a ballclub. But I'm not a "J.P. apologist" -- in fact, some of his moves baffle me -- so I won't bother defending him.
Coach - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#29270) #
when you banned this poor fellow for asking a legitimate question

TRC, you couldn't be more mistaken. If Niles was "banned," it definitely wasn't by me and it was probably inadvertent. The comment wasn't deleted, and it was a perfectly legitimate question. Some of the spam and offensive remarks that we have had to delete originated from IP addresses which were generic enough to inconvenience others who used the same ISP. We've made that issue clear in the past, apologized for any inconvenience, and done our best to correct the problem.

Anyone who's ever played for me, or even met me, knows how ludicrous your innuendo is. I've never judged a player by anything but his or her effort and commitment to the team. If you would like to discuss this further, please e-mail me.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#29271) #
Ricciardi has made at least one trade with Oakland in every season he's been a GM.

2002
Koch for Hinske/Miller
Kremblas (?) for Wilson

2003
Rouse/Mowday for Lidle

2004
Kielty for Lilly

Than of course signing players with Oakland backgrounds like Tam, Bordick, Menechino.

I think we can honestly expect a deal between the two every season. These two can fill each other's holes and have both said it's relatively easy to trade with each other.

If Mecir is a FA, I have a gut feeling he'll be signed by the Jays. Redman is an outside possibility, considering JP said he wants another starter. Redman has a Batista type contract for the next two years, and he's been mediocre this year. In fact, he has a really bizzare home/road split. Oakland is supposed to be a pitcher's park, but Redman has a 7.46 ERA at home in 76 innings, and a 2.90 ERA on the road in 115 innings. Odd. One of the lefties (Hammond, Rhodes, Rincon) is also a possibility since the Jays need one.

Call it a hunch.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#29272) #
Redman and Rincon would be nice, I think. A Halladay-Lilly-Bush-Redman front four would be fin, and though a lefty isn't necessary, a LOOGY the calibre of Rincon would be welcome I think.
_Jobu - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#29273) #
A very funny thought (to my warped mind) came to me as I was driving to Tim Horton's just now. What if when Jesus Colome came in to close out games, he came out to this song while his throne was carried to the mound. COMN doesn't work for some reason so copy paste.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/jobuandpat/Jesus%20Colome.mp3

PS. You have to wait for the "singer" to "sing" before you'll get the joke.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#29274) #
fin = fine
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#29275) #
KT, I find it incredible that you can follow this team closely and still come to the same juvenile conclusion as various uniformed members of the Toronto media

Jonny German, there's a nice way to say that.
_6-4-3 - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#29276) #
I'd like to see Bradford here, if for no other reason than I'd like to see him pitch regularily. Mecir would be fine, but he might be pricey for the Jays (I think he's a free agent and he made 3.3 million this year)

I'd also like to see JP add a lefthander in the bullpen, if only because once DLS got injured and Kershner was demoted, there seemed to be numerous times when a LOOGY would have been useful.
_Scott Levy - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#29277) #
I'd love to have Bradford and/or Rincon. I'm not sure of the salary/stats of the other players. Redman was solid last year, don't hear too much about him recently.

Here are figures I got from various sources.....

Redman
2005: 4.25 million
2006: 4.95 team option, 4.5 player option

RHodes
2005: 3.07 mil
2006: 3.07 mil

Rincon
2005: 1.95 mil

I think Hammond and Mecir are free agents, and Bradford is arby eligible.

We could probably have Rhodes for Ligtenberg looking at the contracts, but I don't know if the Jays would want an extra year of Rhodes.

Redman will almost certainly get traded with his contract and Blanton ready to go. Why not to the Jays? He's basically a left-handed Batista, with a similar contract to match. I could see the A's taking Ligtenberg due to his history and one year remaining on his deal.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#29278) #
" Sean Douglass, Bobby Kielty, Mike Nakamura, and Kevin Frederick "

These names do not scream of individuals who have worked out. JG, you're outta line taking that tone with me. Read my post again and you'll see I took every precaution to show I'm not trying to skewer JP or offend JP fans. I was asking an honest question.

Some of the mouth-frothing defensiveness on behalf of JP is a little frightening - and in this case your vengeful messianism had the wrong target. I like JP, but I think I'm allowed a little skepticism. And as for this:

"If I thought the GM of my favourite team was so devoid of original thought that his modus operandi was to simply acquire as many players as possible from his previous employer, I would find a new rooting interest."

I find it strange that your love for a team STARTS with the GM. What's the average tenure of a GM? 5 years? I've been a Blue Jays fan for 20 years and will continue to be long after JP is gone.
Craig B - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:31 PM EDT (#29279) #
What the heck are you talking about? Do you think this JP guy did a better job? Look at the A's record over the last couple of years smart guy; that's pretty good for a team with that payroll.

I don't think Beane's done a great job over the last two years, no.

No, I don't think J.P.'s done a better job. What they are doing is a very different job, mind you. J.P. is rebuilding; Beane's been reloading. A very different sort of job. That said, J.P. hasn't done his as well as Billy's done his.

Look at the A's record over the last couple of years smart guy; that's pretty good for a team with that payroll.

It's quite good. Oakland were 16th in player payroll in MLB this year and will finish with the 11th best record; this is an excellent performance on that metric. His record since he began as A's GM is superb.

A lot of Beane's success, though, can be credited to his performance over the previous few years, prior to 2003. I think his 2003 and 2004 performance isn't really all that great; good, yes. Better than average. But "great"? He took a team that had won 103 games in 2002 and 102 in 2001; a team with a great, great track record. He increased the payroll significantly in both years. A significant increase in 2003; another one this year. And he went from 103 wins to 96 to 90.

Now still, 96 and 90 wins are good performances on a tightish budget. But a great performance that is not. I will say this... his 2004 draft looks absolutely excellent to me. But Beane's record in trades and free agent signings since the end of the 2002 season isn't superb, it isn't even all that good.

He's still the #1 general manager in baseball as far as I'm concerned, the guy I'd feel most confident handing over the reins to. But he hasn't even been close to as good as, say, Terry Ryan over the last two years.
_Jonny German - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#29280) #
Sorry 'bout that KT, it's the general idea, not you in particular. It frustrates me how the mass media can float a rumour or a ridiculous theory and it gets repeated and repeated until everyone believes it. Maybe it's because I'm much less exposed to the mass media than most, and because I'm a skeptic by nature - skeptical of what the media's pushing, in this case. To say or imply that JP mkes many trades and transactions involving current or former Oakland players for reasons other than that being in the best interests of the Toronto Blue Jays is to say that JP is an unintelligent individual. I've heard the man speak, I've seen how he's tried to build this team, and he has no lack of intelligence. Of course he makes a lot of trades with Billy Beane. Billy Beane is a good friend of his, it's a great working relationship and they're inclined to try to help each other out. Of course he acquires former Oakland players - he's a former Oakland employee himself, he's acquiring commodities that he knows the most about. The media wants us to believe that JP's a fool, that JP doesn't have any more of a game plan than to pick up Oaklanders. That sells. "JP is doing his best with the resources available to him" is boring, it doesn't sell.
Craig B - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#29281) #
Some of the mouth-frothing defensiveness on behalf of JP is a little frightening - and in this case your vengeful messianism had the wrong target.

Is there a nice way to say that, too, or is that the sort of thing that can't be said some other way?
_Jonny German - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#29282) #
What can I say, KT, I disagree. You started out with "Eventually though, JP is going to have to do something more than raid Oakland's cabinet.". You say later in the post that you're not being overly critical, but I don't see how that's not in direct contradiction with your opening sentence. It appears to me you're criticizing because many of his successful moves have been ones involving Oakland. Are you implying causation here? Is he actually a rotten GM who can only get something right when his buddy Billy Beane throws him a bone?

I do apologise in that I went off on a tangent, riffing on something that wasn't really your point.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#29283) #
And a third one is the Blue Jays? That's a novel approach... I guess you're never disappointed, anyways.

I might be the only person on the planet to be a fan of the Jays, Red Sox, and Yanks.

But I like the Jays a lot more than the other 2 teams.

The good thing is that I always have a team to root for in the post-season.
_Matthew E - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#29284) #
You know, when Pat Gillick came to Toronto from the Yankees, he did have a lot of success raiding the New York organization for a few years. I don't remember anyone criticizing Gillick on that basis.
_Keith Talent - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#29285) #
"Is there a nice way to say that, too, or is that the sort of thing that can't be said some other way?"

: )

I've just been cooling on JP the last few weeks, I think it was caused by hearing him give up to the media; all this "we'll never win the World Sereies with this budget", etc. It might be true, but he sure sounded like he could do it a few years ago. And has the situation changed? I don't know. I know the payroll has been lowered, did JP know he would be dealing with a $50M payroll when he talked contention? It just sounds like he's lost enthusiasm. "I never really wanted to be a GM" - I hate hearing this kind of crap, it's juvenile. No matter how talented a guy is, if someone working for me starts spouting this kind of stuff, I'd relieve him of his duties. We all have our off-days, but JP needs to show that he has the professionalism to handle such a high-profile position. Instead of admitting what he may have done wrong, he's just getting angry at the world.

John Gibbons was great in the Toronto Star today, admitting several mistakes he's made managing in the past few months and what he's learned from them. I'd like to see some of this from JP, instead of this nihilism. Of course he doesn't have to admit mistakes (and hindsight is 20/20) - but he should be upbeat about the future. That's HIS work, and if he's not keen about what he's been doing, there really shouldn't be a place for him there.
_Jonny German - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#29286) #
I don't really see where I got into "mouth-frothing defensiveness" or "vengeful messianism", so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

My love for a team does not start with a GM, but I do not enjoy rooting for a team that is poorly run. I used to be a Leafs fan, but the perpetual incompetence of their front office (and, in no small part, the ever increasing gladiator style of play in the NHL) caused me to abandon them. I didn't take up a new favourite team, I just stopped following them. If they start making more sensible moves, and if the NHL comes back as a less barbaric rendition of the good ol' hockey game, I'll re-join my friends in rooting for the Blue & White.

Maybe that makes me a fair-weather hockey fan. I really don't care.
_Jonny German - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#29287) #
Here's something we can agree on, KT: JP doesn't do a very good job dealing with the media. My take is that he needs to be more of a politician.
_Ron - Saturday, October 02 2004 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#29288) #
I know I'm in the minority in DA Box but I agree with Keith Talent's thoughts.

JP sounds really defeated and if I'm Ted Rogers I wouldn't want my GM basically saying the future is real bleak. Michael Landsberg brought this up on OTR yesterday for discussion. As a fan if you're basically telling me there's no chance of competing for a playoff spot in the near future why should I care then?

I know we are diehard Jay fans, but for the casual baseball fan when the GM says hopfully the team can compete in 2006 or 2007 does that really make you wanna fork out the cash to buy season tickets or a ticket package?

I'm thinking there's a chance JP has been saying all these things to put pressure on Rogers to open up his wallet.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#29289) #
I'm thinking there's a chance JP has been saying all these things to put pressure on Rogers to open up his wallet.

What's so wrong with that? I don't think Rogers himself has any delusions of winning the series on 53 million payroll.
_Keith Talent - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#29290) #
Yeah, Godfrey's got the party line down flat. I liked how he came out right after the Expos final home game with a big "we're OK in Toronto", though JP picked this time to air his sour thoughts. Something Scott Carson brought up a few months ago; why is Godfrey talking to the media about baseball now all of the sudden? It was strictly JP who was the mouthpiece for the program before. It seems Godfrey is moving into the PR portion of the GM's job.
_Magpie - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#29291) #
This is a slap in the face to Cal Ripken, Lou Gehrig and the other great Iron Men.

Ripken, anyway. Gehrig did the same thing. He started games listed as the ss, led off, got his at bat and came out of the game.
_Ron - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#29292) #
What's so wrong with that? I don't think Rogers himself has any delusions of winning the series on 53 million payroll.

Well the Jays payroll is at 50 mil and everything I'm reading indicates it will probably be around 50 mil next season.

I don't know the ownership history of the Jays but why did Rogers decide to buy the Jays? Is he a huge baseball fan?

I've just noticed a real change in JP's attitude towards the Jays from April to now. Even after the Jays started 3-11 he was still very upbeat about the Jays this season and beyond with a limited budget when he appeared on some business show with Godfrey and Wilner.

I feel like for some people here in DA Box JP can do no wrong.
A perfect example is the bullpen situation. Going into the season most agreed JP did a good job (myself included), but it's obvious the bullpen has been a huge weakness this season. I know hindsight is 20/20 but at the same time you have to hold the person who brought in those guys accountable. I don't care if the moves looked good at the time, the reality is most of those moves didn't pan out.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#29293) #
I'm just wondering what's so wrong with JP trying to weasle more money from Ted by stating the obvious (they can't win with this payroll unless by total fluke)
_Keith Talent - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#29294) #
Well, JP should speak with Ted personally then with those thoughts. And Ted would probably say, "when you interviewed for this job, you said you could do it." I was always under the impression that once the Jays were "one player away", Ted would spring for that key player or two. JP's job is to get them to that position, the "one player away" position. That is what he's expected to do with $53M. Once they can sniff first place, I'd say they would be allowed to make a marquee signing, or make a splashy trade. But JP's sending a whole other message now.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:29 AM EDT (#29295) #
That's exactly the point then isn't it? He always said when they get in contention, the infusion of cash and big players would be enough to take them over the top....meaning it wouldn't be with the current payroll, meaning he doesn't think they can win the World Series with this payroll. He's not lying or making false pretenions, he's just stating what has already been established. With this payroll they can't win, but a little on top they can. I really don't see a thing wrong with his comments other than stating the obvious.
_Magpie - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#29296) #
and if you thought the anti-Oakland, anti-Moneyball stuff was bad before, just wait.

That's Aaron Gleeman on Harball Times.

I think there's a perception of Billy Beane that he thinks he's the smartest guy around. True or untrue, that image is out there. It has something to do with that Moneyball book he wrote, as Joe Morgan would tell you. And many people find it irritating - that he thinks he's so clever - and like to see the wise guy get his comeuppance.

But surely, more people hate the Yankees? I hope so.

Is anybody neutral about the Yankees?
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:49 AM EDT (#29297) #
I think a yankee (or a yankee fan) would rather have the team hated by someone than viewed indiferently by someone. Just "not caring" is the last thing they want. Kinda like Jim Rome, love him or hate just pay attention to him or he'll start to cry.
_Ron - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#29298) #
On the topic of Jim Rome I find for every person that loves his show there's another person that can't stand him or his show.

I hated Rome at first and thought he was very arrogant (and he warned new listeners it's an aquired taste) but as time went on I started to like him more and more. I love The Jungle. Best "sports" talk show period. He's even hosting the Late Late Show on Oct 22nd.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:56 AM EDT (#29299) #
Best "sports" talk show period? I think that's definatly a matter of personal opinion. I can think of a few shows of the top of my head that are alot more entertaining and more importantly informative. But I wouldn't say they're the best because they're most popular.
_Ron - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:02 AM EDT (#29300) #
I'll change my statement to Best Sports Talk Show imo.

I love the non-sports takes, the clones, J-Stew's acting adventures, and the interviews.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#29301) #
I'll change my statement to Best Sports Talk Show imo.

That I can live with ;).

And I'll admit sometimes he gets great interviews which I enjoy, but for the life of me I cant stand the call-ins from the clones, and Rome's 20 second pauses. Here's a 2 minute clip I recall from when he was still on AM640 in Toronto.

"Castillio break DiMaggio's streak?..............Not gonna happen..... Not gonna happen......... It can't happen........ DiMaggio was married to Marylin Monroe............ Marylin Freaking Monroe........Who's Castilio married to?.........I don't know....... that's the point..............not gonna happen.......... Unless he marries Britney Spears...........It's not gonna happen......... If he doesn't shack up with Miss Spears.......... There's no way he's gonna break that record."

He stole 2 minutes of my life and didn't say anything remotley useful!

Sorry if I'm a little testy tonight. I'm trying to study for a rediculously convoluted sports psychology exam.

What do you think of PTI? Man I love that show.
_Ron - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:10 AM EDT (#29302) #
I don't like PTI. I find those 2 guys really annoying. No hockey fans should like either of those guys because one time I tuned in and both trashed the NHL really hard.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:12 AM EDT (#29303) #
What'd they have to say about the NHL? It's certainly done some trash worthy things in the last year....heh heh.
_Rob - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#29304) #
I think PTI is indicative of every stupid, yelling fan out there who thinks a point is made better if they scream it.

And yes, I hate Jim Rome. I was in the States in August and caught Rome Is Burning on ESPN -- how terrible. I then found him on the radio in Ottawa, of all places, and he had those 20 second pauses all over the place. I think he was talking about Darren Dreifort sucking, and he lasted about 45 minutes on it.

Jobu: What exactly is sports psychology? All I can think of is a Roger Clemens clucking like a chicken.
_Ron - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#29305) #
It was after the Bertuzzi incident and how they basically said the NHL was a bush league because of the violence and they used the Bertuzzi example to show their viewers how barbaric the NHL is.

And of course they later went on to ramble about how nobody cares about the NHL in the US and it took an incident like this for the NHL to get some coverage.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:41 AM EDT (#29306) #
I don't actually like the PTI guys, or the points they make, I just find it amusing how they list topics on the side and then run through them.

Rob, I'm tempted to type out my chapter one notes but I'm not that cruel. Essentialy there are two aspects of Sports Psychology. Applicational in which you use convoluted theories of motivation to help athletes find the right type of motivation and propel themselves to better achievements, or research in which you make countless studies figure out why people are motivated to do what they do in sports and what you can extract from that.

I'm a pysch major myself, so I took Sports psych as more of an elective to round out my knowledge as opposed to focusing in on it more. In theory my dream job would be to help athelets achieve their highest potential, maybe not in a "psych 'em up, be the ball, see the ball" kinda way, but if say they were having severe anxiety atacks before competition where more of my clinical psych training would come in handy. Of course, no one really gets their dream job so I'll take what I can get with my degree ;)
_miVulgar - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:48 AM EDT (#29307) #
No hockey fans should like either of those guys because one time I tuned in and both trashed the NHL really hard.

On the contrary, I think true hockey fans should applaud them for trashing the NHL. The product is, for the most part, junk.

Jonny German articulated the way I feel about the NHL *and* the Leafs better than I could have hoped:

I used to be a Leafs fan, but the perpetual incompetence of their front office (and, in no small part, the ever increasing gladiator style of play in the NHL) caused me to abandon them. I didn't take up a new favourite team, I just stopped following them. If they start making more sensible moves, and if the NHL comes back as a less barbaric rendition of the good ol' hockey game, I'll re-join my friends in rooting for the Blue & White.

Maybe that makes me a fair-weather hockey fan. I really don't care.


Classic.
_Rob - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:01 AM EDT (#29308) #
On the contrary, I think true hockey fans should applaud them for trashing the NHL. The product is, for the most part, junk.

Couldn't agree more. I think the NHL is terrible.
Of course, I'm a Wings fan, so what do I know? ;)

In theory my dream job would be to help athelets achieve their highest potential

Hey, maybe you can solve Eric Hinske's or Miguel Batista's problems for us. There's gotta be something going on there.

Where do you go to school? You mentioned having a StarPass, so I assume it's in Toronto. York? And please don't try and understand why I'm interested in the classes of some random Joe who I've never met. :) As you said, Da Box takes strange tangents at night...

Oh, and I found convoluted theories of motivation very funny. Don't know why, maybe because it's 1:55 AM. I cannot stress how funnier things are late at night. This is why people think Conan is funny -- anything is hilarious at 12:15 to drunk college students. ;) Wait until 2009, when he's on at 11:30. Won't be so great then...
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:06 AM EDT (#29309) #
Yeah, I go to York. We might have a Beer Club meeting there once playoffs start. Let me know if you live in the GTA and are interested. More the merrier.

As for Hinske, psych's can't cure "suck". I kid, I kid....I'm studying convolusion at 2 in the morning so I'm grumpy. I actually like Hinske.

You want cheesy late night chuckles? Go a few posts up and check out my Jesus Colome post. I'm STILL laughing at it.

PS. Rome bashed the NHL harder than anyone, so I wouldn't put him on a pedestal just yet

Fan apathy for the NHL is at an all time high, TV ratings are dropping, other lesser sports have blown right by it in this country, the NFL is underway, the college football season is shaping up and MLB playoffs are about to begin. So what's the NHL's response to all this? A lockout, prolonged work stoppage and possible cancellation for the regular season and Stanley Cup playoffs. Brilliant marketing strategy fellas. The sport is already bordering on irrelevant and on life support here. In this country, it ranks somewhere between bowling, the WNBA, slamball, extreme dodgeball and barrel jumping. Right about now, the NHL aspires to be women's soccer. Major League Baseball might be able to survive a long work stoppage, the NHL won't. Nice knowing you. Rest in peace.
_Brad - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:16 AM EDT (#29310) #
The Scoscia/Stoneman Angels have played team ball one out at a time for three years. Don't talk much and play ball. 3,400,000 fans this year would have been thrilled with "almost but not quite" but Erstad, Percival, Anderson, etc would not settle. Hard to put the thrill into words...
I put the Big Cat on all 3 of my fantasy teams for the final game of the season. Chances are the Angels will rest Anderson and Glaus and some others, and I am hoping there will be room for Andres to start the game and go for home #400.
Good guy with a big heart. Check out:
www.bigcat14.com
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:21 AM EDT (#29311) #
I think the "Barbarianism" in the NHL is greatly exaggerated. What makes the NHL barbaric? Oh, right...the fighting!

The US Media doesn't seem to understand that nobody gets hurt from fighting. I watch over 100 NHL games every year and I can't ever recall someone being injured from a fight, with the one exception of Rob Blake, who accidentally punched the glass during a fight and broke his hand. Fights aren't a problem. Referees stand by every fight, and if it starts to get out of hand, the ref breaks it up. They enable the players to vent out a lot of frustration, without severely hurting anyone in the process. What's the alternative to fighting?

Well, the alternative is cheapshots. When a guy is pissed off at someone, and he can't fight him, do you know what he sometimes does? He throws a cheapshot. THOSE are the problem. The high-sticks, the slashes, the shots from behind, you know what I'm talking about. Is that what you mean by barbarianism? Because the NHL is trying hard to get rid of cheapshots. It's not like the NHL allows these things to happen. There are suspensions handed out for cheapshots, JUST LIKE IN BASEBALL. Boy I'm glad that there are no cheapshots in baseball. You know, it would be barbaric if pitchers intentionally threw the ball at players. Imagine if that happened. I'm glad the MLB is such a clean, virtuous league. Not like that wretched NHL.

The US media are just vultures. They don't pay attention to hockey at all, until something terrible happens. THEN they start licking they lips and pounce all over it. You see uninformed morons spouting off about how "barbaric" the NHL is, when the only hockey they've ever seen is the replays of the Bertuzzi punch on SportsCenter. That's what gets me the most. These guys can't wait to trash hockey. Simply because it's not theirs. Oh right, but nothing bad ever happens in baseball, football, or basketball.

When A-Rod and Varitek fight, that's just good ol' American emotions. When Pedro grabs Don Zimmer by the head and throws him to the ground..well that's just a great rivalry. When Clemens throws broken bat pieces at Mike Piazza, then that's just fun!

But when the NHL has controlled fights with referees nearby that prevent them from getting out of hand, fights that never cause any injuries to anyone. That's barbaric! The NHL is a bush league!

Give me a break.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:42 AM EDT (#29312) #
Jeez Ryan, sounds like I'm not the only frustrated guy tonight ;)

Now before I finally get some sleep, I found a Jim Rome quote that actually increased my respect for him just a tad. So in the interest of fairness, I'll post this one too.

If you needed another reason to dislike Barry Bonds, then here it is. Bonds says he's exhausted because no one will pitch to him: "Walking is harder than hitting because you're on your feet all day. I never sit down. I'd go on the bases, stand up, go to get my glove and stand out there, except for a few minutes, go and hit, grab my glove, run a base, score, whatever, grab my glove, go out there. That's hard. That's not easy. Let somebody do that and see how it feels." Let somebody do that and see how it feels? Fine. I volunteer. . Pretty much everyone on the entire planet not named Alex Rodriguez would gladly trade places with you. Construction workers, waitresses, postal workers, people who really are on their feet all day have a reason to be tired. You don't Barry. How such a smart guy can say something so stupid is beyond me.
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:47 AM EDT (#29313) #
Jeez Ryan, sounds like I'm not the only frustrated guy tonight ;)

Yeah, I'm really pissed off tonight for no particular reason. I wrote another rant (about a completely different topic) on another board as well. Maybe I should just go to bed. :$
_Fozzy - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:53 AM EDT (#29314) #
I feel like for some people here in DA Box JP can do no wrong.

Really? I've had the exact opposite feeling about you; weird.

I know it may seem like I'm picking on you, but this bullpen thing is getting really old.

A perfect example is the bullpen situation. Going into the season most agreed JP did a good job (myself included), but it's obvious the bullpen has been a huge weakness this season. I know hindsight is 20/20 but at the same time you have to hold the person who brought in those guys accountable. I don't care if the moves looked good at the time, the reality is most of those moves didn't pan out.

How can you possibly hold someone accountable? We've gone through the signings ad-nauseum (Game 157, Game 160), and all four guys had really solid numbers; in fact, Terry Adams was automatic last year, and had been for several year prior. If you don't judge based on past talent, then what do you? Draw out of a hat? Rock-paper-scissors? Nicest ass?

We've also discussed all the would-coulda-shoulda players, and it comes down to simple fact: for whatever reason, beyond that of the control of the front office, they didn't play well this year. How the hell can you blame the GM for on-field play, especially when every indication is there that things would go well? Who would have thought Kershner and Lopez would fizzle so badly? It's like your boss getting yelled at, just because you can't go to the bathroom without getting piss all over yourself.

I've presented the numbers to you over the past few days, and you've yet to get back to me with anything more substantive than: "It's pointless to say JP should have gotten this guy and that guy because I don't know what players were available through trade and what players were interested in signing with the Jays. What I do know is that the bullpen has been a dud and the person that put it together was JP." It's past the point of rebuttal - you're simply bashing.
_Niles - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 03:09 AM EDT (#29315) #
Thanks "Real Coach?" for sticking up for me, but its not necessary.

Coach, I did email you about my banning after it initilly happened and you never emailed me back. I saved a draft of the email to my sent folder it if you want to see it again:

I'm just curious if you banned me from the BB site
because I asked Jerry Haworth if he thought baseball
was ready for an openly gay player.

It's your site and you can ban who you want but I
thought I'd just explain to you the context of my
question to make sure that there hasn't been some
misunderstanding.

I believe that the struggle for gay rights and the
acceptance of gays in society is akin to the struggle
for civil rights that blacks and other minorities have
had to fight for through the years.

I thought that Jerry, being around MLB players and
management on a regular basis, would be able to offer
some honest insight on the attitudes that a gay player
might encounter if he were to make his orientation
known to his teammates.

Anyways, ban who you want I guess I just found your
knee-jerk reaction to what I thought was a genuinely
important question troubling.

_Niles


Coach if you tell me that you didn't ban me and this was all an unfortunate mixup then I'll accept your apology but if it wasn't you who banned me maybe you should re-consider who you give such powers to.
_milanpaw - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 03:09 AM EDT (#29316) #
I'm sorry, but I can't let it pass; Escobar being described as "solid." (How quickly we forget.) He's the poster child for high-risk, high (sorta) reward (no offense meant, Ryan01).
_Rob - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 03:10 AM EDT (#29317) #
We might have a Beer Club meeting there once playoffs start. Let me know if you live in the GTA and are interested.

Well, "Beer Club" and a 1987 birthdate do not go well together. Neither do "running off to Toronto to meet people from the Internet", no mode of transportation, and my parents. ;)
Let me know if there's a Beer Club Redux in '05 though -- York is on my application list, but I figure I can make the drive from anywhere in the Lesser Toronto Area if it means there are actual baseball fans at the end of said drive. If I have to hear one more of my friends bitch about the lockout or Vince saying "trade me", I might spontaneously implode. You read that right. Not explode, implode. I thought that would sound cooler...

Yeah, I'm really pissed off tonight for no particular reason.

Me too. The Jays won, so that's not it. Lack of sleep?
With that in mind, and since people are going to bed left and right, AND I really don't have anything meaningful to say anymore, I'll try and get some sleep.

Before I retire to my always-comfortable bed, I feel like I should put something baseball-related in here, so here you go:
I'm sort of cheering for St. Louis, but I really wish Carpenter does not succeed with the Cardinals in the postseason. I don't want to hear about another player who solved it all when he got out of the cold, mean place that is a JP team. RG's done an Izturis story already; expect a similar article on Stewart, Sturtze, Werth, Escobar, Adams, DeWayne Wise, or Carpenter, depending on who wins it all next month. Even Brian Cooper or Pete Munro would suffice if the NL Wild Card team wins.
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 03:22 AM EDT (#29318) #
Can you believe that Chris Woodward actually costs more than Izturis? Uggggh.

Oh well, hopefully Russ Adams turns out to be a better player than either of them. He already has as many HR's as Izzy this year.
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 03:28 AM EDT (#29319) #
And now for something completely random!

According to ESPN's splits page thing, Eric Hinske is hitting .155/.250/.278 off of "Flyball Pitchers," but .323/.363/.521 off of "Groundball pitchers." That is quite a discrepency. Any explanation for this, or is it just meaningless?

I wonder if managers will ever adjust their lineups for flyball/groundball pitchers the same way they do for lefthanded/righthanded pitchers.
_Magpie - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 03:39 AM EDT (#29320) #
nobody gets hurt from fighting

Wow, is that ever not true.
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 04:00 AM EDT (#29321) #
Don't take that out of context. I meant in the NHL, and by "hurt," I meant injured. Two guys drop the gloves, scrap for 15 seconds, and then skate off to the penalty box perfectly fine.
_NDG - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#29322) #
Well, the alternative is cheapshots. When a guy is pissed off at someone, and he can't fight him, do you know what he sometimes does? He throws a cheapshot. THOSE are the problem. The high-sticks, the slashes, the shots from behind, you know what I'm talking about. Is that what you mean by barbarianism? Because the NHL is trying hard to get rid of cheapshots.

Uhhh, Ryan, have you been watching the NHL lately? This is exactly why I can't stand hockey anymore, and it happens every shift of every game (well and the constant holding, blue-line interference etc.). The NHL doesn't punish these, it punishes only those acts which result in injury, which is STUPID! Every other sport punishes its participants based on the action and not the result.

BTW, while Cherry will tell you no one gets injured in fights, this just isn't true. The name escapes me, but someone broke an orbital bone just last year. In Maple Leaf terms, Nick Kypreos' career was ended in a fight.
_Moffatt - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#29323) #
Coach if you tell me that you didn't ban me and this was all an unfortunate mixup then I'll accept your apology but if it wasn't you who banned me maybe you should re-consider who you give such powers to.

You weren't banned. None of the staff ever banned you.

As I recall we were having problems with other posters in that same thread, some of which were banned. It may be that you share an IP address with one of them. Hence it was just a very untimely coincedence, like Coach pointed out.
_Jobu - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#29324) #
Hey I'm back up to study after about 5 hours sleep!.......shoot me.

Study, Ballgame, Study, Sleep, Study, Exam. Guess which part of the the next 24 hours will be my favourite.

Also, the Beer Club will probably be held somewhere that lets in minors. You just probably wont get as tipsy as the rest of us.
_Paul D - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#29325) #
Ryan, I don't agree that cheapshots is the alternative to hockey.
If the NHL was serious about cleaning up the game, it would take steps to curb both fighting and cheap shots. I'm not a huge hockey fan, so I don't know what the solution would be... I know that if you play in the local Junior C league and you get three sticking infractions in one game you're out of the game. I'd like to see some variation on that in the NHL. That would create problems, (I can see the refs turning a blind eye to a player's third infraction), but I think that over time, with new and better refs, it might help.

Craig, if you're still watching this thread: Is Beanne better than Schuerholz? Or Hunsicker?
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#29326) #
Fair enough. It was silly of me to say that nobody gets injured in a fight. But most of the time, players leave fights unharmed. And I do believe that the NHL is trying to get rid of the cheapshots, but maybe they're not doing a great job of it.

I'll just concede defeat, as I'm outnumbered. ;)
_Ron - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#29327) #
How can you possibly hold someone accountable? We've gone through the signings ad-nauseum (Game 157, Game 160), and all four guys had really solid numbers; in fact, Terry Adams was automatic last year, and had been for several year prior. If you don't judge based on past talent, then what do you? Draw out of a hat? Rock-paper-scissors? Nicest ass?

Like I said earlier most agreed with the bullpen signings (including myself) but should we say no blame should be placed on JP? No way.

It doesn't matter if the moves looked good at the time, it's the results that count and decide the fate of your job (in most cases, Brian Burke is an exception to this rule).
Craig B - Monday, October 04 2004 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#29328) #
Let's get rid of the italics first.

Craig, if you're still watching this thread: Is Beanne better than Schuerholz? Or Hunsicker?

I really, really don't know. I'm just not competent to make that kind of assessment. If you gave me the choice of all three, and I had to pick one of them to run my team, I think I'd take Beane, but that's just a case of "the devil you know". Beane does and says things that make sense to me.

Schuerholz is an ex-military guy who seems like a bit of a nutcase to me, and hasn't shown the kind of leadership I'd want out of a GM, particularly on the racist chanting in Atlanta. So I wouldn't hire him in a million years. Does that make him worse than Billy, in my book? No, especially because Schuerholz has a terrific track record and not just in Atlanta. He was terrific in Kansas City. He's a fine GM, obviously an excellent fit in Atlanta. I think the Braves - notwithstanding the fact that they, like the A's, haven't been a great playoff team - would be ill-served to get rid of Schuerholz to bring in Billy Beane.

Let me just say that I think John Schuerholz will eventually be a very strong candidate for the Hall of Fame. I don't think Billy Beane will ever be. Does that mean he's the best GM, right now? No. But I'd have a hard time saying that anyone is better.

Gerry Hunsicker isn't in their category. Hunsicker's had some good years, but he's wasted a pile of resources in Houston and he does asinine things every month. A notable example was where he decided not to employ a lefthanded reliever in the whole organization this year except for Mike Gallo. I don't just mean at Houston; they didn't have a lefty at AAA or AA either, who could make the step to the big club and help out in a jam. I won't get into the bizarre obsession with Brad Ausmus, or the catchers in general.

Hunsicker stuck with old one-M for about ten decades too long as well. All in all, I just don't think a lot of Hunsicker, and haven't all the way back to the decision not to protect Bob Abreu after the '97 season.
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