Now that we're in offseason mode, I think I'll just enjoy the silence.

Ahh, if only I could Enjoy the Silence of this Sunday Morning. Unfortunately, I'm in a Depeche Mode just thinking about the impending departure of King Carlos.

Consarnit!! the one time up early enough, beaten by a hair, and after posing a really cheesy sentence.

The column that mentioned Toronto's interest in Zito, also mentioned that they were interested in Percival, Koskie and Clement. Clement would be amazing, but I don't think the Jays will have the money to get him. They could maybe land both Percival and Koskie for the same amount or a little more...

What would J.P need to give Oakland to get Zito - some top choice lower level pitching?

Marcum and Perkins?

Troy Percival is the one player most likely to be overvalued by the market. He's got those flashy saves totals, the pretty ERA and a name. The truth is that he was a fair pitcher in 2003 and a below average one in 2004. All told ,in those 2 years in 99 innings, he's walked 42 batters, given up 14 homers and struck out 81. Only the last number is even moderately impressive. I wouldn't spend more than $500,000 on him.

Darn, Enjoy the Silence is one of my favorite songs. I was thinking that it would be cool for someone to use it in the roundup. Would have made my day if I had gotten it...

But I digress...

Isn't Zito a free agent? And seeing the Jays linked to all these free agent names is pretty fun actually. Of course though, if they were to push hard for ANY of those guys, they'd have to let Delgado walk to have all that extra cash. I really like Clement as well, but I think bringing in any mixture of Zito/Clement/Percival... 2 of those guys would make for a very interesting off-season and would really improve the Jays, obviously.

I would not want to give up good prospects for Zito. You get 1 year of pitcher at $4.8 million. He had his worst year last year and it seems that the league has learned to lay off his curveball.

If Oakland is rebuilding what the heck are the Jays doing?

I suggest hanging onto the pitching prospects or using them to get some offensive prospects. Toronto's best chance of success is to build with cheap talented prospects who will be around for a while, not taking on moderately expensive guys like Zito.

If we are following the Oakland model then lets follow it for goodeness sake.

Okay, nevermind, I guess Zito isn't a free agent then.

http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_06_29_dugoutdollars_archive.html
DaveInNYC, Dugout Dollars shows him signed for 2005 at $4.8 Million COMN

I'll bet you Beane would love Hudson.

That might be too much for just Zito though. Well, I guess it depends on which Zito you think you're getting.

But, a rotation of
Halladay
Zito
Bush
Lilly

plus whatever,
has the potential to be very, very good.

The question is, would you then be comfortable with an infield of Catalanotto, Hill, Adams and Koskie?

That Dugout Dollars chart shows the Billy Bean is not immune from making mistakes. Dye made $11 million last year for Hinskish numbers of .239/.319/.426 with 141 SO. This year he will make $14 Milion - ouch

If the blue jays somehow managed Glaus and Clement that would be amazing.

Dye won't make 14 million this year because his option has been declined - he's a free agent.

Just looking at an old jays prospect traded to Oakland a few years back... Jason Perry had a pretty good year in Double A.

.338avg, 80rbi, 24Hrs, 39dbls, 81runs, in only 83 games. His bb/k ration wasnt that good though 34/87.

I suggested about a month ago, if the Blue Jays can't bash teams into the playoffs, than why not just pitch their way there? Barry Zito surely will get his stuff back and put up Cy Young like numbers. If him and Halladay both win 15+, wowee. But somehow I don't see Zito coming to the Blue Jays.

Zito is signed for 2006 too, at something like $7 million.

I wouldn't spend more than $500,000 on him.

Really? Wow.

Oh wait....

Looking at Hardball times.....

ERA: 2.90
FIP: 5.12

Barry Zito surely will get his stuff back and put up Cy Young like numbers

Surely? Why?

I wonder if Paul Godfrey and ultimately Ted Rogers will take the opportunity that no NHL has afforded, to create interest in the Blue Jays by signing/trading for some interesting (hopefully successful) players which will cost extra money, or if they'll stick to the original plan which involves more waiting thereby disregarding any stab at "grabbing" fan base *now*?

Well, since we're all being optimists here today... These are my optimistic predictions for the offseason!

Hinske goes to the Reds in exchange for Austin Kearns, Adam Dunn and Ryan Wagner!

Jays sign free agents pitchers Matt Clement and Troy Percival!

Jays trade Vernon Wells to the A's for Barry Zito and cash!

Jays sign a random free agent centerfielder... Like Carlos Beltran!

Jay trade Kerry Ligtenberg to the Rockies for a Todd Helton bobblehead!

And finally..

The Jays sign Corey Koskie and Troy Glaus to split time at 3rd!

Imagine the possibilities!

Well, since we're all being optimists here today... These are my optimistic predictions for the offseason!

You forgot signing Pedro to be our new uber-closer.

While we're at it, let's dream of the ultimate prize....

The Jays with a leauge average payroll.

Oh yeah, that's the stuff of beautiful dreams right there.

Jobu, could you send me an email please?

It's on its way.

Anyone else?

Los Angeles Daily News: "The Angels and third baseman Troy Glaus have parted ways, the club ready to hand its third base job to young, talented and inexpensive Dallas McPherson and spend its money elsewhere this offseason... So the Angels instead will make a run at multitalented center fielder Carlos Beltran or explore a trade possibility for Toronto's Vernon Wells, among others."

Anyone here a Angels/Jays trade rumour before? I know texas was discussed a lot on here, but I don't recall Anahiem.

I agree with Ducey. If the Jays aren't going to contend next year, why bother with short-term fixes? Zito won't be around if and when the Jays start to contend, because he'll be priced out of Toronto's budget. I would put Glaus in this category too.

If teams like Anaheim and Oakland can't afford these players, how can it possibly make sense for a small-budget, rebuilding team to sign them? The Jays won't even get draft picks for them when they leave Toronto, because, like Delgado, they won't be offered arbitration.

What the Jays need are good young position players and pitchers who will be around for a few years. I would much rather see the Jays come up with a Morneau or Swisher than Sexson, Glaus--or Zito. Buying high and adding cumbersome contracts was something the last GM specialized in; I would hate to see JP succumb to the same temptation.

Gotta love the offseason. Most of the time the reporters just love to throw names out there and connect them to teams. 95% of the stuff they say won't happen.

I would love to see Zito here but that would most likely mean Delgado is gone and perhaps a package of Hudson and Rosario going the other way.

But because the Jays finished dead last in the division JP should be exploring trade options for every player on his roster. If O-Dog wins the Gold Glove his value will shoot up and that's the perfect time to deal him. JP did offer (according to several reports but never confirmed by JP) O-Dog last season to the Brew Crew for Sheets and to the M's for R. Soriano

agree with Ducey. If the Jays aren't going to contend next year, why bother with short-term fixes? Zito won't be around if and when the Jays start to contend, because he'll be priced out of Toronto's budget. I would put Glaus in this category too.

If teams like Anaheim and Oakland can't afford these players, how can it possibly make sense for a small-budget, rebuilding team to sign them? The Jays won't even get draft picks for them when they leave Toronto, because, like Delgado, they won't be offered arbitration.

What the Jays need are good young position players and pitchers who will be around for a few years. I would much rather see the Jays come up with a Morneau or Swisher than Sexson, Glaus--or Zito. Buying high and adding cumbersome contracts was something the last GM specialized in; I would hate to see JP succumb to the same temptation.


If you go by that logic than why would the Jays even bother to waste their time trying to get Delgado back? Why did JP sign Batista last off-season then? By the time the young kids come up and get seasoned for a few years both will be long in the tooth (Batista already is) and gone. Heck why doesn't every rebuilding team just field a roster of players younger than 28 and fill the roster with min. league salary guys?

The answer is because you have to compete and sell it to your fans you're trying to win. It you don't want to provide at least a glimpse of hope then why should I buy tickets unless I enjoy watching kids develop while the team loses 85-90 games.

The problem is that providing fans with a "glimpse of hope" may cost you a chance at truly competing in subsequent years. Gord Ash traded for or signed Mondesi, Sirotka, Gonzalez, et al, in an effort to give Jays fans some hope, year after year. The problem is that this approach mired the Jays in perpetual mediocrity.

When JP signed Batista, I think he expected that Batista could form part of a contending team, if not in 2004, then certainly by 2005 or 2006. Based on his 2003 performance, he also seemed like a relative bargain (ah, 20-20 hindsight).

The difference with Zito is that by the time the Jays contend, he will likely be gone. More important, signing Zito may actually impair the team's chances of contending, because the Jays won't have the budget to acquire other players they will eventually need to win. Not to mention the loss of the young players the Jays give up for Zito (say, Hudson and Rosario).

The Jays will likely let Delgado go for the same reason (in much the same way that the A's made the intelligent decision to let Giambi walk when he was a free agent).

I think the only top free agent the Blue Jays will explore is Carlos Delgado.

After that it's trades, midlevel FA's, non-tenders and minor league signings.

Putting together a winning team seems to have quite a bit of happenstance involved (just look at how many "good signings" turned out "bad".)

As for Batista he wasn't brought in this year to contend because JP thought they weren't going to contend. JP cringed when Tosca made his win prediction. Even if Batista was brought into contend in 2005 or 2005 he would be 35 and 36 years old. Very few top of the rotation pitchers (or starting pitchers for that matter) are 35 or 36 years old. I wonder if JP still feels like saving a few mil to get an aging end of the road Batista over a guy in his prime like Escobar was worth it?

So that begs the question who should the Jays go after then in the FA market and through trades?

How would you sell baseball to the fickle fans in Toronto next season? Is it once again going to be You Gotta See These Young Guys Play ... and lose 85-90 games? IMO that won't attract the casual baseball fan to invest his money on the Jays.

Even if the Jays acquire Zito it doesn't mean he will be autmatically gone after his contract expires. Perhaps the spike in attendance from a winning team generates more profit, Canadian dollar continues to raise, player marker values continues to shift down, Rogers expands his budget, etc.... There are no absolutes.

Perhaps the Jays are interested in Zito because they dont think they can afford Halladay much longer?

Who's the better value? Zito at $13.5 million over the next two seasons, or Halladay at $36 million over the next three?

Zito's contract status from Dugout Dollars:

2005: $5.5 MM (his bonus of 630 IP kicked in)
2006: $8.25 MM club option

So it's only 5.5 million that the Jays would be on the hook for, plus whatever it would cost to buy Zito's 2006 year and cut him loose.

With this in mind, Zito looks like the better deal, but if anyone offered me him for Doc straight up, I wouldn't do it.

http://snopes.com/sports/football/election.asp
There's still hope. COMN.

Score in the 3rd Q: GB 20, WSH 7

Very few top of the rotation pitchers (or starting pitchers for that matter) are 35 or 36 years old.

That's ridiculous. The average age of the Yankees rotation is over 35!

Pitchers don't age at the same rate as hitters. 35 is not "over the hill" for a pitcher.

That's ridiculous. The average age of the Yankees rotation is over 35!

Pitchers don't age at the same rate as hitters. 35 is not "over the hill" for a pitcher.

Yankees 5 Starting Pitchers
Hernandez = 35
Brown = 39
Lieber = 34
Mussina = 35
Vasquez = 28

Combined years = 171
171/5 = 34.2 years old

The average age would even be lower if you wanna throw in Loaiza at 32 and Sturtze at 34. That would lower the age to 33.8

Take a look at all the other teams 5 starting pitchers and the Yanks top out it 34.2

I challenge anybody to name me 35 good to excellent starting pitchers aged 35 or above.

Generally you peak at a certain age and performance declines it's safe to say 35 years and older fits into the category of declining performance then let's say the years between 27-32 years old.

Damm italics!

Kevin Brown is going to be given a free pass out of NY, maybe if NY picks up 14 million he would be worth a shot :)

Score in the 3rd Q: GB 20, WSH 7

Now five minutes left. Come on, Packers!

Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.

I challenge anybody to name me 35 good to excellent starting pitchers...

Oh crap. Redskins TD. 20-14, 4:52 to play.

Hernandez = 35

If El Duque is 35, then I'm 12.

if you wanna throw in Loaiza at 32 and Sturtze at 34

I have a better chance of ending up in Yankees rotation than Sturtze.

Washington scored the go-ahead TD... but it was wiped out by an procedure penalty. Next play, Green Bay intercepts Brunell.

Just for fun...top 25 pitchers in the MLB in ERA:

Pitcher	ERA	Age
Peavy	2.27	23
Johnson	2.60	41
Santana	2.61	25
Sheets	2.70	26
Zambrano	2.75	23
Clemens	2.98	42
Ol.Perez	2.98	23
Pavano	3.00	28
Schmidt	3.20	31
Leiter	3.21	39
Od.Perez	3.25	27
Schilling	3.26	37
Wright	3.28	28
Westbrook	3.38	27
Davis	3.39	29
Carpenter	3.46	29
Radke	3.48	32
Oswalt	3.49	27
Hudson	3.53	29
Webb	3.59	25
Hernandez	3.60	29
Glavine	3.60	38
Clement	3.68	30
Marquis	3.71	26
Thomson	3.72	31

Average age: 29.8 years old

P.S. What the hell is Doug Davis doing on this list?? Geez.

The NEW Yankees 2005 Pitching Staff:

Hernandez = 49
Moffatt = 12
Lieber = 34
Mussina = 35
Vasquez = 28
Magpie = ??
.
.
.
.
.
Sturtze = crap

Washington scored the go-ahead TD... but it was wiped out by an procedure penalty. Next play, Green Bay intercepts Brunell

Damnit, I really should start reading the whole sentance before reacting. That damn near killed me.

Packers score!

BOO YEAH!!!

God do I ever hate living over here in Western Canada... we are forced to watch SEAHAWKS football games.... ARGGGG Every damned week.

5 years I have watched Hassleback and I hate him more and more every time I see him!!

Magpie=older than Clemens, but younger than... Orosco?

The age of the Yankees rotation as of today, using the 5 guys Ron mentioned:

Brown: Age = 39.7.17
Moose: Age = 35.10.23
Lieber: Age = 34.6.29
Vaz: Age = 28.3.6
Duque: Age = 39.0.20

Average = 35.5.25

They're almost as close to 36 as they are to 35, and that includes one guy (Vaz) weighting down the average a whole lot.

El Duque was born on October 11th, 1965 - The Duke of Havana (a biography) cites his passport, divorce agreement and Cuban baseball card (I wonder how much that might be worth someday) as sources for this. Why MLB sources continue to list 1969 as his birth year is beyond me.

El Duque is 39 years old.

Final Score:

Green Bay 27
Washington 14

We just might get out of this alive....

Average age: 29.8 years old

P.S. What the hell is Doug Davis doing on this list?? Geez.

RAISING the average age by about 1/2 year. hehehe

The BoSox are not a bunch of spring chickens either;

Schilling=38
Pedro=34
Wakefield=38

Plenty of hurlers are just fine past 35.

I wonder what the average age of Da Box is. Cuse we got some young punks slacking off their studies, and we got some old timers slacking off work. Perhaps the answer lies in the creamy middle.

After a season from hell, Halloween seems like the right holiday. Is anyone going out as, I don't know, Bud Selig? Too scary, I guess, for people under the age of majority.

Pistol

I say surely he will start pitching well again, perhaps missused
"surely". I would think it quite possible that he returns to form after a down year last year. Zito is more than capable of putting up 15 wins next year. I think he will.

The pats look like they're finaly going to lose. But no one in NE cares.

While Zito might be worth the risk at that salary, I would only do this if the Jays can get rid of Batista. THE JAYS NEED OFFENSE! Adding Zito would prevent adding the hitting the Jays need, unless they are cutting loose some of the guys already signed.

I'm not that crazy about Koskie either, but anything is an improvement over Hinske(even 12 year old Moffat).

THE JAYS NEED OFFENSE!

The Jays don't need offence. They just need to score more than their opponents. They can do this just as well by strenthening pitching.

The Jays need offense to score more than there apponent, they are on the verge of having the worst offense in baseball next year, unless they make some significant aquisitions.

There pitching with or without Zito doesn't come close to making this a .500 team (assuming Delgado is gone).

Here are 25 men who, by my estimates, would cost roughly 53 million

1. Russ Adams - 2B
2. Frank Catalanatto - LF
3. Alex Rios - CF
4. Erubiel Durazo - DH
5. Mark Teixeira - 1B
6. Corey Koskie - 3B
7. Aaron Hill - SS
8. Gregg Zaun - C
9. Reed Johnson - RF

Bench: Greg Myers, Frank Menechino, Jorge Seqeua, Marvin Benard

Rotation: Roy Halladay, Barry Zito, Matt Clement, Ted Lilly, Dave Bush

Bullpen: Miguel Batista, Jason Frasor, Vinnie Chulk, Kerry Ligtenberg, Trever Miller, Rule 5 Lefty, Sean Douglass

Just throwing it out there based on names actually tied to the Jays - Not sure if its an optimal roster, but a possible one nonetheless I think

I'm not that crazy about Koskie either, but anything is an improvement over Hinske(even 12 year old Moffat).

Trust me, you don't want that. I've played a few innings at third in beer league slowpitch teams and it's not pretty. Imagine a white Alex Rios on a Sudafed bender playing third. That's what it looks like.

I wonder what the average age of Da Box is.

Moffat has hit it spot on--the average age here is just over 12 years: just look at the music you listen to. Magpie goes on about being a geezer, but he's still barely approaching middle age. A callow youth. I expect I'm the only certified, card-carrying Senior Citizen on Da Box. (And I also expect, lads, to be accorded the full respect due such venerable status. So no lip from you lot.) Every blog needs a COG, a curmudgeonly old guy, and I aspire to that role. And watch your damned spelling: it's unbelievable.

if the Blue Jays can't bash teams into the playoffs, than why not just pitch their way there?

Because it's damn near impossible. If you look at all of the playoff teams over the past 4 or 5 years, how many of them didn't have at least a league-average offence? Very, very few. Teams like the 2003 Dodgers or A's (all-pitch and no-hit) very rarely make the playoffs. It's that simple. In order to make it you need to be very good one one side of the ball and at least average at the other. Teams like the Giants or Angels of 2002 or this year's Cardinals or Yankees also show that teams with great offences, marginal rotations, and good bullpens can also do it.

And watch your damned spelling

You could at least spell my name right. :)

Moffatt with two t's! Who ever heard of that? They didn't do it that way in my day. Sorry.

And watch your damned spelling

I'm always horrified whenever I read over my posts. You would think I would start reading over my comments before posting. Unfortunately my laziness continues to win that battle.

I don't mind.. it's hardly ever spelled right by anyone, so I'm pretty used to it. :)

Don't even get him started on Mo' Phatt.

Including the Giants with "good bullpens" they had nothing in that pen.

Doug Davis saved my wife's fantasy team and vaulted her into third place in our league. No kidding. Sure, he never got any wins, but his ERA and WHIP were great all through the second half for her.

Zito is more than capable of putting up 15 wins next year.

Rather than say how absolutely useless it is to judge a pitcher based on wins, I shall point out the following:

Selected 15-Game Winners
2004: Shawn Estes
2003: Gil Meche, Jeriome Robertson, Jimmy Haynes

Those are some great names up there. Robertson had a 7.27 ERA and almost 13 hits per nine innings for the Buffalo Bisons this year.

Terry Adams already filed for free agency. What do you think the odds are that JP takes a flier on this fellow? I think he'd be a good fit for the team at the right price.

I'm always horrified whenever I read over my posts. You would think I would start reading over my comments before posting. Unfortunately my laziness continues to win that battle.

Perhaps you should start. It only takes a second, and it makes our pena so much more enjoyable for everybody. When people have to continually decipher phonetic spellings, typographical mishaps, and MSN/text message style acronyms, they get frustrated and stop reading. We don't want that.

Terry Adams already filed for free agency. What do you think the odds are that JP takes a flier on this fellow? I think he'd be a good fit for the team at the right price.

I'd be unhappy if either Terry Adams or Julio Lugo were signed by or traded for by the Jays. The fact that you can get a suspension in pro sports for smoking a joint, but not for the Adams/Lugo common thread, is silly and infuriating.

Apparently my sarcasm was not apparent enough. My apologies.

I love Tori Amos's version of the lead in song. Very cool. I very nearly had my wife convinced to make it our first dance song until we listened to it carefully together and decided that people may be put off by the "vows are spoken to be broken" line. But "all I've ever wanted, all I've ever needed is here in my arms" does accurately describe how I feel when I dance with the lovely Mrs Will AKA RCS.