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Rotoworld is reporting a trade between the Boston Red Sox and the San Diego Padres.

Dave Roberts, a fourth-outfielder type heads west. Jay Payton and his 3.5 million dollar salary (according to Dugout Dollars), infielder Ramon Vazquez, pitching prospect David Pauley and 2.65 million dollars (that's right for the "cash-strapped" Red Sox).



Roberts is arb-eligible, and I figure he'll get something like 1.7- 2.2 million for 2005. Roberts has more speed and less power than Payton, but they are almost the same age and relatively equal in value at this point in their respective careers. Vazquez didn't pan out as hoped - he's now on the fast track to utility-fielderdom. Pauley is just one out of an army-full of single A pitchers with decent K/W ratios - the odds are long on him being more than a fringe major leaguer.

If we view Roberts-Payton a wash, the Sox have picked up a 28-year-old infielder, a bit of cash and a long shot prospect for nothing.

Ken Rosenthal of The Sporting News reports that Orlando Cabrera has agreed to $32 million (4 years) from the Anaheim Angels.

Wade Miller (Astros) is the biggest non-tender announced so far. Jacque Jones, Jay Gibbons, Mark Ellis, Chad Bradford, Luis Rivas, Jose Macias and Ray King are among those who've signed and avoided arbitration.
Tender, non-tender ... trade! | 51 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Moffatt - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 10:59 PM EST (#7309) #
Can somebody explain this deal to me from San Diego's perspective? I feel like I'm missing something. It looks like they got absoultely hosed by the Bo Sox.
_Jonny German - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:07 PM EST (#7310) #
Yeah, like I said in the other thread I often feel like Epstein gets more credit than he really deserves, but he made out like a bandit here.
_Kieran - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:08 PM EST (#7311) #
Maybe I need to check the numbers, but at first glance, I can't help but think Roberts-Payton is a wash. Checking 3-year OPS+ from B-R.com, we see:

Payton: 115 / 112 / 86 (career 100)
Roberts: 98 / 74 / 88 (career 82)

Roberts is good for 35+ SBs at an 80% success rate, which has to count for something, but I still don't see him as Payton's equal, especially when SD offers to pay part of Payton's salary.

Payton has never turned out to be the player some predicted (remember all those trade rumours with the Jays a few years back - Payton & Rusch for Wells? or Clemens?) however he showed good power in Colorado, and if given 400 ABs playing home games in Fenway, I wouldn't be surprised to see him post .280 .350 .475 with 25 HRs.

Effectively, he takes Kevin Millar's spot as a RH power bat, and is somewhat more versatile in the field.
_Kieran - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:08 PM EST (#7312) #
I mean to say, "I can't help but think Roberts-Payton is NOT a wash"
_jsoh - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:09 PM EST (#7313) #
Wade Miller being non-tendered? Did I miss something on that one? Miller's been a pretty good pitcher the last couple of years - when he's been healthy.

Did the Astros figger that the injury risk wasnt worth it?

And oh. Fair warning. Any one who has that the Jays should pick up Luis Rivas is gonna be forced to read all 124 thousand words that Gleeman has written on him in the last 2 years.

:)
robertdudek - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:10 PM EST (#7314) #
Here's a list of non-tendered players so far (based on Rotoworld's sources)- former team in brackets:

David Eckstein (Anaheim)
Shane Nance (Arizona)
Mark DeRosa (Atlanta)
Michael Hessman (Atlanta)
Billy Traber (Boston)
Lenny Dinardo (Boston)
Sandy Martinez (Boston)
John Riedling (Cincy)
Phil Norton (Cincy)
D.J. Mattox (Cincy)
Eric Munson (Detroit)
Wade Miller (Houston)
Miguel Asencio (KC)
_Jonny German - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:14 PM EST (#7315) #
Billy Traber would be a great option for a minor league contract. He missed all of last year with elbow surgery, but if he's healthy his 2003 splits say he could be a good LOOGY.
Gitz - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:23 PM EST (#7316) #
Munson would be a nice feeler, too. I seem to recall him having nice isolate power numbers, he's only about 26, and getting out of Detroit could enable him to have two or three .260/.350/.480-type years. Worse players have been given millions -- why, just this very off-season!
_Moffatt - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:25 PM EST (#7317) #
Every year I've expected a raft of non-tenders and every year I've been wrong. You think I'd learn after awhile. :)

Munson, Eckstein, and Miller are somewhat interesting. Only Miller would really be that useful to the Jays, just because you can never have enough pitching.
_John Northey - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:32 PM EST (#7318) #
Shame to see Eckstein non-tendered. Hopefully he catches on somewhere as I like to cheer on underdogs, even if I'd never sign them for my own team. He'd be a good utility player but nothing more imo and at over $2 million he'd be too expensive a utility player.
_Cristian - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:32 PM EST (#7319) #
I can't imagine Miller will be out of work for long. What seems strange to me is that Houston couldn't have traded Miller before tonight's deadline. I'm thinking they could have picked up a pretty good prospect for him.

Is this a rookie mistake by Purpura?
_Wildrose - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:39 PM EST (#7320) #
Wade Miller is having rotator cuff shoulder problems.
Thomas - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:49 PM EST (#7321) #
The non-tendering of Eckstein to sign Cabrera to a huge contract is a mistake by Stoneman, I think.
_Cristian - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:56 PM EST (#7322) #
Schoeneweis was also nontendered. His overall numbers don't look good but they would look a lot better if he hadn't tried to pitch through an injury in midseason. The injury ruined his year and then shut him down in early August. He's left handed and would make a good long reliever. Unfortunately, he demanded to be in the starting rotation last year in Chicago.

Hmmm...in the course of one paragraph I talked myself into signing Schoeneweis and then talked myself out of it. I should really lay off these late night stream of consciousness type analyses.
Pistol - Monday, December 20 2004 @ 11:57 PM EST (#7323) #
Is this a rookie mistake by Purpura?

I have to imagine they explored the possibility of a trade. I'm certain Purpura isn't saying, 'oh wait, we could have traded him? Whoops'.

Miller had/has rotator cuff problems and didn't pitch after June. To pay him several million is a pretty big risk.

A week or two ago I read that the Royals were going to non-tender Affeldt, but Ascencio is apparently the only Royal non-tendered. Perhaps there's a trade market for him.
_Cristian - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:18 AM EST (#7324) #
Miller is supposedly healthy and should be ready for Spring Training. If he can be brought aboard on an incentive heavy deal that tops out at Matt Clement money, I think it's a smart move.
_Jays_Fan - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:28 AM EST (#7325) #
Wow. this place went dead quiet at midnight, when everyone realized that the non-tenders are basically crap.
_Lefty - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:36 AM EST (#7326) #
The non-tendering of Eckstein to sign Cabrera to a huge contract is a mistake by Stoneman, I think.

Like John Northey I like Eckstein too. Probably for many of the same reasons. But why is it a mistake to non-tender him and sign Cabrera. Its not like the Angels owner is tight with the purse strings like gazillionaire Rodgers.
_actionjackson - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:43 AM EST (#7327) #
What about Dustan Mohr who was non-tendered by SF? Last year his OBP exploded. He went .274/.394/.437 in 263 AB. He bats right, but I don't think he has enough juice in his bat for the righty power bat the Jays are looking for, but oh that OBP.
_PeterG - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:53 AM EST (#7328) #
I would try very hard to sign Mohr even if he is to platoon in lf/dh.
This would then allow JP to package Reed Johnson with Towers and a prospect to a low budget club for a hitter with some more oomph.
_Dan Julien - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:02 AM EST (#7329) #
Agreed on Dustin Mohr, anything we can acquire without giving up resources that can help us and maybe help us go fill some of our needs would be great.

Rotoworld reports:
Marlins non-tendered LHP Matt Perisho.
Very surprising. Lefties hit just .207 off Perisho last season, and the Marlins have no internal candidates to replace him. Maybe they'll sign Gabe White, but even so, Perisho would have been worth keeping at $750,000 or so

Now there's a guy as a fallback to Kline who can get lefties out. Maybe a LOOGY out of the pen
robertdudek - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:04 AM EST (#7330) #
An updated list of non-tenders:

David Eckstein (Anaheim)
Shane Nance (Arizona)
Mark DeRosa (Atlanta)
Michael Hessman (Atlanta)
Billy Traber (Boston)
Lenny Dinardo (Boston)
Sandy Martinez (Boston)
Scott Schoeneweis (Chi Sox)
John Riedling (Cincy)
Phil Norton (Cincy)
D.J. Mattox (Cincy)
Eric Munson (Detroit)
Wade Miller (Houston)
Matt Perisho (Florida)
Franky Gracesqui (Florida)
Miguel Asencio (KC)
Scott Strickland (NY Mets)
Orber Moreno (NY Mets)
Dustan Mohr (San Francisco)
Cody Ransom (San Francisco)
Wayne Franklin (San Francisco)

I too think that Mohr would be a nice addition for the Jays at the right price.
_Mike Forbes - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:08 AM EST (#7331) #
I'd love to see any or all of Wade Miller, Dustan Mohr and Matt Perisho signed by the Jays.
_actionjackson - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:09 AM EST (#7332) #
I know he's injury prone, but what about a minor league contract for Orber Moreno. If healthy (a huge if), he has shown himself to be very effective, but due to the health risk, anything more than a minor league deal or at the most the major league minimum ain't worth it.
_actionjackson - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:12 AM EST (#7333) #
Perisho for LOOGY out of pen
_GeoffAtMac - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:44 AM EST (#7334) #
Count me in with a vote for signing Wade Miller.
_CaramonLS - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:50 AM EST (#7335) #
Whats the Status of Strickland's arm? He would be an amazing releiver to have around.

Cheap Insurance policy could be Schoeneweis for reliever/backup starter... heck might even be a better option than Miguel.
_Brad - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:56 AM EST (#7336) #
As a Halo lifer, I am ecstatic at ownership's willingness to bring excitement to Anaheim. Eckstein was always a fill-in at SS, his best position being 2B where the Angels will start the exciting Chone Figgins and have Adam Kennedy to play as well. I have no problem with the batting order starting out Figgins, Cabrera, Finley, Guerrero, Anderson. And now that Hudson and Mulder are out, the Angel's overall pitching should be the class of the AL West. Gonna be tough facing Ichiro, Boone, Belte and Sexon up in the Northwest but it looks like a blast for 3,000,000+ of us at Angel Stadium this year!
_Callum - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 02:02 AM EST (#7337) #
http://www.geocities.com/deviant_weirdos
Miller would be a great addition to the Jays. I love his makeup and at times has electric stuff. Could turn out to be another Batista because he doesn't mind his BB. Halladay, Lilly, Miller would be a solid 1-3 barring injury.
_CaramonLS - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 02:11 AM EST (#7338) #
If Miller is healthy, there is going to be a huge market for him this off season... I'd just forget about him to be honest. (of course I would LOVE him on our team).
_Tom Servo - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 02:13 AM EST (#7339) #
http://www.fanboys.com
More non-chicken-tenders!

Alex Cora (Dodgers)
Thomas "Don't Call Me Biff" Wilson (Dodgers)
Ben Davis (White Sox)
Chris Saenz (Brewers)
Amaury Telemaco (Phillies)
Lou Collier (Phillies)
Geoff Geary (Phillies)
Michel Hernandez (Phillies)
Jorge Padilla (Phillies)
Brian Sweeney (Padres)
Kevin Frederick (Blue Jays)
Ryan Meaux (White Sox)
Josh Phelps (Blue Ja... err... Indians)
Mariano Gomez (Indians)
Luis Ugueto (Mariners)

I think we've got 'em all now!
_Caino - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 02:26 AM EST (#7340) #
""Miller would be a great addition to the Jays. I love his makeup and at times has electric stuff. Could turn out to be another Batista because he doesn't mind his BB.""

I agree Miller be a solid pick up. Looking at his numbers compared to Batista's, he seems way more stable year to year. His better career E.R.A. and BB/K ratio seem to suggest he might make the transition to the AL better than Batista aswell.

Ip ERA OppOPS G/F BB/K
Batista 1100.2 4.47 .743 1.67 480:706
Miller 768.0 3.87 .712 1.24 306:659

Some consideration must be given to the fact that Miguel has played a year in the AL, and also been bounced around between the rotation and bullpen a bit more than Miller.

But that said, Batista had 96 BB's and 106 K's last year in the AL.

Disregarding that year for comparisons sake, his line of 384 bb's and 602 K's in 902 career innings doesn't look too impressive side by side against Miller's numbers.

Not bad for a would be non-tender pick up. Any thoughts?
_CaramonLS - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 02:28 AM EST (#7341) #
Ryan Meaux doesnt look too bad, be worth signing him to a minor league contract... amazing numbers for a releiver (AA) and a very very sold BB/K ratio.

Not great as a starter last season.
_steve - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 04:45 AM EST (#7342) #
miller got injury issues but i think anyone would take a flyer on a former 15 gamer
_Daryn - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 08:17 AM EST (#7343) #
I like Miller for a 2 year deal with an "appearance based" option for a 3rd year, (better still a 1 year deal with 2yr option)

We have money this year, so we can front load a contract and see if he's worth anything for 2006-07
_Daryn - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 08:18 AM EST (#7344) #
Oh.. and I don't think Roberts-Payton is a wash...
Roberts value is as a Pinch Runner, don't need that so much in the AL.
_Daryn - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 08:55 AM EST (#7345) #
**FANTASY BALL HIJACK**

I've been trying to keep an eye on the health of Joel Pinero and Eddie Guardado

Anyone have a good resource for seeing how they are doing??
_Smirnoff - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 08:56 AM EST (#7346) #
re: Miller's injury issues--- aren't these the type of guys that we should be hoping to get some bang from limited buck signings? If there is a decent chance that he'll improve this ballclub, go for it.
_Daryn - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 08:59 AM EST (#7347) #
aren't these the type of guys that we should be hoping to get some bang from limited buck signings

I think so... just do lots of press about the risks so JP isn't blamed if his arm falls off
_DeMarco - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 09:14 AM EST (#7348) #
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1103583009875&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908
Rob Faulds won't be back doing games for the Jays COMN.

I can't say that he was my favorite announcer but I kind of feel for him because of the tough year he had.
_Kieran - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 10:10 AM EST (#7349) #
Count my vote for Wade Miller. Injuries notwithstanding, he's got excellent numbers - 4-5 years straight of better than league ERA, less than 1 H/IP, 2:1 K-BB ratio (I realize his BB's were up in '04).

I think he will command decent dollars, but if healthy, he looks better than Clement to me.
_Hamboy - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 10:17 AM EST (#7350) #
Miller would be great pick up for any team... given that his shoulder is in one piece. However, if his shoulder is in one piece, wouldn't Astros tendered him a contract?

It would be a nice gamble for Jays to take a flyer on Miller, but I think a lot richer teams are thinking the same thought...
_Jordan - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 10:24 AM EST (#7351) #
If Miller's healthy, he'll be a very attractive free agent, as the enthusiasm expressed here demonstrates. But the Jays didn't win a bidding war for Clement, and I'm doubtful they'd win one for Miller. Also, it's possible the Astros may try to re-sign Miller at a lower price, and I would think he'd give them the first crack at him. We'll see.
_Lefty - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 10:36 AM EST (#7352) #
If Zaun gets to pricey I wouldn't be opposed to the Jays having a chat with Ben Davis. He can smoke a ball and in the dome he might help out the power game.
_Cristian - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 11:32 AM EST (#7353) #
You donít always enter a bidding war to win. If the Jays raise the Miller's eventual signing price and he goes to another team, that other team wonít have those resources available the next time there is a bidding war. Itís for this reason that while I didnít like the Jays paying $8M for Clement, I have no problems with the Red Sox doing so. The Jays should go after Miller up until the price exceeds what JP is willing to spend. There really is no harm in doing so. Unless of course, JP is afraid of rejection.
_Wildrose - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:16 PM EST (#7354) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1950523
Here's the complete non-tender list from A.P. ( Comm.)

Two ex-Jays hit pay dirt, Gibson $2.6 million, Bruce Chen $550,000 both for 1 year.
_Wildrose - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:24 PM EST (#7355) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1950528
Comm for the list of remaining free agents.
Mike Green - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:30 PM EST (#7356) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits3?statsId=6023&type=batting
The non-tendering of Alex Cora puzzles me. He hit .264/.364/.380 in a pitcher-friendly environment. He plays good D at second. I guess the Dodgers have decided to play Kent there, rather than at third.

COMN for Cora's splits. He sits a lot against lefties, but actually has a reverse platoon split.

Anyways, he'd be a nice pickup for someone looking for a second baseman. I'd much rather have him out there than Tony Womack.
_Jordan - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 12:46 PM EST (#7357) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/1995.shtml
Sandy Martinez ... didn't he come up as Angel Martinez as a rookie?

Here's a trip down some of darker back-alleys of Memory Lane. Martinez debuted with the '95 Jays and caught 61 games, splitting time behind the plate with Lance Parrish (67 games) and Randy Knorr (45 games). Collectively, they hit nine home runs.

Pitching to those three catchers was a staff that included:

- Danny Darwin (1-8, 7.62)
- Edwin Hurtado (5-2, 5.45)
- Danny Cox (1-3, 7.40)
- Paul Menhart (1-4, 4.92)
- Giovanni Carrara (2-4, 7.21)

Pat Hentgen started 30 games and had an ERA of 5.11; Juan Guzman started 24 games and posted a 6.32 mark. Tony Castillo led the team with 13 saves. That last-place club cost around $50,000,000 (including $4,750,000 to Duane Ward, who pitched 2 2/3 innings), which was among the highest in baseball that year.

I don't care what next year's Jays do, they can't be in worse shape than they were a decade ago.
_G.T. - Tuesday, December 21 2004 @ 01:21 PM EST (#7358) #
Sandy Martinez ... didn't he come up as Angel Martinez as a rookie?

Yup, don't you remember all the "He's no Angel" jokes? :)

I don't care what next year's Jays do, they can't be in worse shape than they were a decade ago.

Of course, they still were the "two-time defending WS champions" and, from that page:

Attendance: 2,826,483 (3rd out of 14)

Almost 40K/game. Ah, those were the days. The Yankees drew 1.7M that year. The Red Sox drew 2.1M, and were the only AL team within 10,000 fans/game of the Jays' total. (The O's and Indians drew more, as did the Rockies)

Forget JP's deckchair-shuffling, I think this is a huge year for the franchise in terms of trying to re-establish its importance in Toronto. With no hockey, and the embarassment that the Raptors have become, the team has a unique opportunity here... the marketing department had better come up with something good!
Thomas - Wednesday, December 22 2004 @ 12:23 PM EST (#7359) #
If Zaun gets to pricey I wouldn't be opposed to the Jays having a chat with Ben Davis. He can smoke a ball and in the dome he might help out the power game.

He resigned with Chicago.
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