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Game Threads Game 19: OK, Enough of That
The Jays have lost 3 in a row at home - they're back at .500 - and it's been a while since a starter not named Halladay did a quality job. Dave Bush is going to change all that this afternoon, and you heard it here first.

And Rogers still hasn't got the press box phone lines working.

Lineups? Yeah, I got lineups. 

Roberts, 2b           Johnson, lf
Newhan, lf            Menechino, 2b
Mora, 3b              Hillenbrand, 3b
Tejada, ss            Koskie, dh
Sosa, rf              Wells, cf
Lopez, c              Rios, rf
Surhoff, 1b           Hinske, 1b
Gibbons, dh           Zaun, c
Matos, cf             McDonald, ss
Bedard, p             Bush, p
This is St. George's Day, for those of you who care - it is the 389th anniversary of the death of William Shakespeare (and possibly the 441st anniversary of his birth as well.) Some fighting words are in order for a team that's lost three in a row:

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more,
Or close the wall up with our English dead!
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger:
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood.
"Henry V" (5.3.44-51)
The Yankees are gaining...
Posted by Magpie on Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 12:30 PM EDT.
Game 19: OK, Enough of That | 53 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
uglyone - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#113334) #
Ok! no more joking around from Bush. Time to get a quality start from him.
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Andrew K - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#113336) #
Not so much of your English dead thank you very much.

I don't approve of starting McDonald. He has a long and convincing history of not being a good hitter. I love his glove, I love his character (in fact... I'm lovin' it) but you can't beat the odds forever. And Adams needs regular play, a vote of confidence after errors, and a chance to learn how to hit against LHP as well.

I nailed my colours to the mast early on this one, and I will stick to my guns. Going for the platoon advantage (whether in selecting lineups, pinch-hitting, or use of Schoeneweis) should be for key and clearcut situations only. I don't believe that the incremental advantage is worth the disruption.

PS: What is this "Mid-Atlantic Sports Network" which mlb.tv carries for these Orioles games? Last time I checked, Baltimore is not in the middle of the Atlantic.
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Andrew K - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#113337) #
This game is not starting well. A leadoff homer followed immediately by a throwing error. Then a ball in the dirt allows the stolen base. And then the sound on my mlb.tv turns into a fax machine.
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Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#113338) #
Yeah, Andrew I got that annoying fax sound too. Gotta be the most annoying T-storm warning of all time. Bush really needed that DP off the bat of Sosa as he had thrown a slew of pitches already. Very odd infield lineup. No Hudson either!?
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Skills - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#113339) #
Mid-Atlantic refers to the grouping of states on the East Coast south of New England.
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JayWay - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#113340) #
We're getting absolutely nothing in this game.

From the lead-off homerun, to the error by McDonald, and now the blown call by the first-base ump, this seems like it's going to be one of those days...
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Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#113341) #
JayWay, I hear ya, but Bedard didn't look that good in that inning. He couldn't spot either his fastball or curve, I think the Jays will put up some numbers today (although it should be 1-1 as Bedard's foot wasn't within 6 inches of the bag).
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Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#113342) #
The Jays are quickly 0-4 with RISP. Bedard looked considerably better in the 2nd inning.
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uglyone - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#113343) #
some complain that we lack power....but our failure to convert RISP with less than two outs has nothing to do with a lack of power.

this is getting ridiculous.
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Gardiner West - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#113344) #
At what point does Alex Rios' lack of anything positive offensively equate to a trip back to AAA? Everyone says his power will come, but I say based on what?
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Cristian - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#113345) #
Can we please send Alex Rios back down to AAA until he learns not to hit every ball into the ground? I know people around here love him for his 2003 AA campaign but he has shown little since. Let him hit AAA pitching before calling him up again. He has not shown any improvement in his time in Toronto. I'm not impressed by his empty batting average.

Does anyone remember when we were discussing what it would take to pry Sheets from Milwaukee? Many here balked when it was argued that Melvin/Ash would want Rios and other Jays prospects. Would anyone still balk at that deal?
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Magpie - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#113346) #
Melvin/Ash would want Rios and other Jays prospects.

It's more likely they would want Wells, and something else....

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Stellers Jay - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#113347) #
Sheets isn't going anywhere. He just signed a 4 year deal with the Brewers with a blanket no trade clause in the first 3 years of the deal.

Would you trade Halladay for Sizemore and prosects from Cleveland? Not a chance, you can forget about it.
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King Ryan - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#113348) #
I still have faith in Rios, but I wouldn't be totally opposed to sending him down. It's not like he hit well when he was down there last time. Maybe he has to make adjustments down there before he's able to make adjustments up in the bigs.

We could get another look at Gross or Crozier or even call up Griffin. Worth giving some thought, anyways.
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Cristian - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#113349) #
Sheets isn't going anywhere. He just signed a 4 year deal with the Brewers with a blanket no trade clause in the first 3 years of the deal. Would you trade Halladay for Sizemore and prosects from Cleveland? Not a chance, you can forget about it.

Did I say Sheets was going anywhere? All Sheets-related discussion occurred before the ownership change in Milwaukee when it looked like Milwaukee would not be able to afford him. You sir, are attacking a straw man.

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Lefty - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#113350) #
Does anyone remember when we were discussing what it would take to pry Sheets from Milwaukee? Many here balked when it was argued that Melvin/Ash would want Rios and other Jays prospects. Would anyone still balk at that deal?

I do remember that discussion. It was widely speculated that Sheets was very much available at the time. It might have taken something like Bush and Rios at the time.

I'm not sure, but I don't think Christian was talking about this as reasonable today. Ofcourse it would take much much than Rios now.

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Andrew K - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#113351) #
Blast mlb.tv, it has completely stopped working now. Looks like I missed a failed hit and run or something.

Apart from the sound interruptions earlier, mlb.tv was also awful for watching last night's game on replay: all jittery and with the sound cutting in and out. I wonder if I can get any money back if I complain to mlb.com?
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Magpie - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#113353) #
It was widely speculated that Sheets was very much available at the time.

Which never made much sense - Milwaukee controlled Sheets through the end of 2007 whether they signed him long-term or not.

Last two innings, Bush has needed 7 pitches and 9 pitches. He's done his part.

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Cristian - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#113354) #
Bush has gotten stronger as the game has gone on. Does he get another inning even though he's nudging the all-important 100 pitch mark? I would think so considering how hard the bullpen was worked last night.
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Cristian - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#113355) #
Which never made much sense - Milwaukee controlled Sheets through the end of 2007 whether they signed him long-term or not.

Kind of like the Rangers 'control' Soriano. Would a Selig-owed Brewers have been able to pay the 6 to 8 million that Sheets would have commanded in 2007?

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Lefty - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#113356) #
Christian was referencing a discussion for illustration purposes. It matters here nor there whether Sheets was really available or if the Brewers were floating a trial balloon for the purpose of the discussion he was trying to raise.

I think the point he is making is that there were many in those discussions who would not trade Rios for Sheets. Hence his potential may have been overhyped or overrated.
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RhyZa - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#113357) #
It's ridiculous how bad umps (standing 2 feet away) are at tag plays... downright ridiculous.
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Stellers Jay - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#113358) #
Awful call at home plate. Rois' foot was clearly on the plate when he was tagged. That's the 2 run the Jays should have had today if it wasn't for missed calls.
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Lefty - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#113359) #
Nice to see Bedard have a brilliant game in Canada and in front of his friends and family.

Patience should be te approach with Julio.
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braden - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#113360) #
Did I miss something? Was Murray Eldon rehired? I thought I heard his voice the past couple of games but the announcement of Hudson was a no doubter.....
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Dunny - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#113361) #
I think it's gonna be monumental achievement if this team is even close to .500 in September.

Baltimore, Boston and New York and just way ahead of them at this point.

It's conceiveable that the Blue Jays will get less than 30 Home Runs out of their entire outfield, the entire year.

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Cristian - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#113362) #
Let's see. If Rios and Cat hit as many homeruns as they did last year, then Wells only needs 28 and we have a 30 homerun outfield.
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Magpie - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#113363) #
Looked like the old Deliberate Passed Ball play. For when you're really, really frustrated with the umpire...
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Gardiner West - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#113364) #
I think I just saw .500 in our rearview mirror...
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fozzy - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#113365) #
damn, how much does it hurt now that the Orioles tacked on 3 extra runs in the top of the 9th? On the flip side, nice job Vernon!
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JayWay - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#113366) #
braden,

I was thinking the exact same thing.
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Cristian - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#113368) #
Saturday afternoon game and only 30 comments. Wow, the bandwagon really emptied out quickly.
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VBF - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#113370) #
I'd like to see Gibby committ the team to more smallball instead of hoping that the team can hit themselves around. J.P. Riccardi said that we'd be a big doubles team but we really haven't seen much of that yet. Late innings have just been weird lately. The bullpen hasn't been great but late inning errors are just frustrating. If we could've cut the top of the ninth to one run, that still would've given us more of a chance to win.
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Lefty - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#113371) #
Great game by Bush today against the dangerous Orioles line up. He only had two K's but seemed in control all afternoon.
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tomofcda - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#113373) #
It's a disappointing outcome for sure...but when did we expect more? The Jays have a lineup that will mostly cobble together runs, but will sometimes struggle. The rotation is strong at the top and sometimes we'll get a nice surprise like Bush today. The bullpen is, apart from Walker, a horrific mess. This team is improving incrementally, which means being within 5-10 games either way of .500. So, after a great start, we're right where I expected us to be.

BTW, long time lurker, first time poster. I hope I can help maintain the high standards of discussion I've seen on the braor.

Greetings from Bellingham.
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unclejim - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#113374) #
So much for using a closer to keep us in the game.

Tuesday's game v Boston was so much fun, how did it all sour so quicky ?

On the positive side, its Halladay tomorrow. Lets hope we can get this back on track.
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tomofcda - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#113375) #
braor?

I also hope I can proof more carefully!
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Lefty - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#113376) #
The other thing that might come into play tomorrow might be the fact that Julio has worked two days in a row. So their late pen situation might be a bit softer.
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DMay - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#113377) #
A depressing day all around. Blown calls, errors, Koskie was terrible as were most of the bats, Batista faltered yet again, and the weather in Toronto was abysmal.

However, in the face of all this, how good was it to see Bush pitch so well? Great pitch selection and he really kept his pitch count down after the first. If he can continue to pitch like he did today, we'll be in for a treat this season as Jays fans.

Hopefully, Halladay can get things turned around tomorrow...
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jay782 - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#113378) #
I couldnt agree with you more, im glad someone else has said that.

Alex Rios is clearly not ready for the big, or at least not ready to fill a spot in the outfield. It's easy to get a .270 hitting outfielder with strong defense in the bargain bin free agent market every year. WHy would we erode Rios' confidence by having him overmatched in the bigs? He clearly at this point does not take the advice given to him to PULL THE BALL (or at least try).

I still have hope for him as well, but maybe he needs to overhaul his overall approach to hitting. He'll be no use to anyone if he's a .270 hitter with no power.
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Fawaz - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#113379) #
Actually, I don't know that he needs to try and pull it more. He seems to ground out to short a lot trying to pull pitches. I do still find his swing curious in that looks an awful lot like a (poor) golf swing. Perhaps his height makes his use of his legs a little deceiving, but it looks to me like he's trying to do it all with his upper body and doing little more than swiveling his hips with his lower body. I just don't see him coaxing any power out of a swing like that given his still slight build.
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Jim - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#113380) #
It's funny. Gibbons used Batista like an 'ace reliever' that many progressive thinking baseball fans think is more optimal. I'm sure he just backed into it because he thought that Batista needed work, and of course Batista couldn't handle his part of the equation.

I have no faith that Batista will close all season, I'm pretty sure that Speier can't handle the job and Frasor hardly seems like a long term solution. I hope that if JP and co can't figure out what to do with League that he ends up in the closer role because at least he has the physical ability to dominate at it, maybe as early as 9/05 or 4/06.
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Magpie - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#113383) #
Elsewhere around the majors, Chan Ho Park shut down the Yankees today...

Chan Ho Park? Chan Ho Park? You've got to be kidding. Next you'll be telling me that Pedro Astacio is back, and pitching well...

Oh, wait.

And Jaret Wright had to come out of the game when his shoulder started barking. It may have been saying "I really miss Leo Mazzone." Wright, of course, is one of the young fellows on the Yankees staff (he's about 10 days older than Pavano.)

And speaking of pitching coaches with mysterious powers, Ray "The Rabbit" Miller seems to have sprinkled his own brand of pixie dust over the current batch of Orioles starters. The Rabbit always had a reputation for being a superior pitching coach, but his misadventures as a manager may have caused a lot of people to lose sight of that.

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Gerry - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#113384) #
In other news Calvin Pickering was demoted yesterday. He was hitting just .148 with one home run and three RBI's. He struck out 14 times in 27 at-bats. Several posters suggested the Jays sign him over the winter. I would say he is available now. Still want him?
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Jim - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#113385) #
Depends on what it takes to get him. If you can get him for a C prospect like Adam Peterson - yes. If he is going to cost a legitimate prospect - no.

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Pepper Moffatt - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#113387) #
Pickering? You could probably get him for a bag of balls and a box of whiteboard markers.
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King Ryan - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#113388) #
Corey Koskie it is then? Oohhh, I'm just joking.

I missed this game, but it sounds like it was another frustrating one. This had to be expected after the start the Jays had where everything was going their way. Sooner or later the "scrub" player will stop hitting .400 and Wells/Koskie will start hitting the way they can, and we'll probably have the kind of team that we expected to have. I sure hope the bullpen improves though.

The decision to bring in Batista was a good one, I think. Too bad it didn't work out. Gibbons has shown that he is very astute with his use of a closer; I just hope the Jays get a closer that rewards Gibbons for his progressive thinking.
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Chuck - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#113389) #
I'm curious about the decision to DH Koskie vs LHP. Koskie has never hit lefties that well and much of his value in games started by lefties is his glove. If he's not able to take the field, then I don't see his bat against lefties being strong enough to warrant him DHing. In games like today's, why not start Hudson at 2B and DH Menechino. Koskie could then PH for Menechino (or whomever) should the opportunity arise.
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Paul D - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#113391) #
I'm not sure about the decision to bring in Batista.
That decision only makes sense if you think he's the best reliever in the pen.

Personally, I think that the best current model might be to have an 'ace' who's not your closer.
That way, you can use your ace in the 7th or 8th inning when you need to, and bring in the closer for the easy 9th.

Then you've got a closer that racks up a bunch of saves and could maybe be flipped somewhere, and an ace that you pay less than a top closer.
This model is kind of like what Anaheim's done.

Is this bullpen any good though? I'm really not sure who the good players are and who the bad ones are. I know there's been talk of sending someone like Cat to Atlanta, and I've been thinking about what kind of return might be possible for that.

The more I think about it, the more I think we're kidding ourselves if we think that the Jays are going to get much for Cat or even Gross. I think that about the best they could do is a decent reliever, but I think that that might be all they need.
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Named For Hank - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#113392) #
That wasn't Murray Eldon, it was his replacement, Tim Langdon, who sounds a lot like him.
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Mike Green - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#113393) #
For a bag of balls and a marker set, I'd gladly take Calvin Pickering. It takes more than 27 ABs and 14 Ks to convince me that he won't hit given a full shot.
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#2JBrumfield - Saturday, April 23 2005 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#113394) #
I was at the game today in section 529 and from what I saw, I felt Rios should've scored easily from 2nd today because it was not like Zaun scorched the ball to left. It seemed to me, anyway, that it took an eternity before the ball dropped in LF in front of Surhoff. Granted, Surhoff got to it quickly but I was surprised there was a play at the plate. I don't know if Rios got a really poor jump from 2nd (which shouldn't happen when there's 2 outs) or just didn't go all out, but I just knew the ump was going to ring up Rios when the ball got to the plate. He was definitely safe. Lee Mazzilli did his best to hand that game to the Jays today by leaving in Bedard that long but the ump helped save their bacon. Poor Dave Bush, he could easily be 2-and-2 instead of 0-and-3. It was great to see him pitch well. Too bad the loss couldn't go to Batista for that 9th inning disaster. At least Vernon got a double and homer, hopefully he'll keep it going. At least the Doctor's in tomorrow. Looking forward to it.
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robertdudek - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 12:44 AM EDT (#113396) #
In other news Calvin Pickering was demoted yesterday. He was hitting just .148 with one home run and three RBI's. He struck out 14 times in 27 at-bats. Several posters suggested the Jays sign him over the winter. I would say he is available now. Still want him?

Yes of course! The man can hit - as he would prove if anyone gave him 400 AB in a season.
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Game 19: OK, Enough of That | 53 comments | Create New Account
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