Blue Jays
Hitters	AB	R	H	BI	BB	K	LO	AVG
R. Johnson RF	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.277
F. Catalanotto LF	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.282
V. Wells CF	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.202
C. Koskie 3B	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.260
S. Hillenbrand DH	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.410
E. Hinske 1B	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.299
G. Zaun C	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.274
F. Menechino 2B	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.200
R. Adams SS	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.220

Orioles
Hitters	AB	R	H	BI	BB	K	LO	AVG
B. Roberts 2B	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.384
L. Matos CF	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.314
M. Mora 3B	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.323
M. Tejada SS	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.374
S. Sosa RF	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.270
J. Lopez C	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.321
J. Gibbons 1B	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.250
C. Gomez DH	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.545
L. Bigbie LF	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.267

Elsewhere around the AL East, with two starters on the DL, another suspended, and Wade Miller still rehabbing, the BoSox have unearthed Jeremi Gonzalez to pitch tonight. They have to beat Jeremy Bonderman, which is getting harder all the time.

And the Yankees are on the verge of a roster move with the impending return of Ace Yankees Reliever Tanyon Sturtze, the Key to Their Bullpen. Which means they have to cut someone loose: Karsay or Rodriguez or Quantrill seem the likely suspects. The Yankees have to cope with Scott Kazmir tonight, who I think is about due to blow someone anyway. With his fastball, I mean.

Nice call to play Sparky tonight, no?

Or Stanton, apparently. Just reporting the speculation from the YES network. The Yankees already have 12 pitchers. Wang is the only one with options, but they need him to take Wright's starts.

Not only has Buddy Groom impressed Torre, his amount of service time prevents him from returning to the minor leagues. the Yankees would have to release or trade a reliever to open up a spot on the 40-man roster for Sturtze...

Read more about the Yankees' problems (something I always enjoy!) at Time to Grab the Bull(pen)

Craig Monroe with a two run double, Tigers up 2-0 on Boston.

Tell me again - why is Sparky playing? And when did John Gibbons turn into Earl Weaver?

Vernon keeps watching pitch after pitch that he should be drilling, and swinging at the questionable ones.

Not to mention pulling outside pitches on the ground when he should be hammering them to right field.

And as I type he grounds out... was the pitch outside?

I concur. What's more, if the Jays surprise everyone and win, say, 92 games, Gibbons has a legit shot at AL MOY.

I anticipate the old IBB here.

Meatloaf?

Cobb for sure. Maybe Speaker.

And for some reason, I'm thinking Rod Carew, who used to steal home... well, not all the time. But frequently.

No.

Good question on the 2nd/3rd/home steal. According to Retrosheet, Eric Young stole 2nd/3rd/Home off Nomo/Piazza on June 30, 1996, but I have no idea if they were in the same inning or not. Must look into this more...

Imagine this: in 1976, Don Baylor stole 52 bases.

Meanwhile the Yankees had a threat but Kazmir got A.Rod with a couple runners on to keep it scoreless. Kazmir has 6 Ks through 3 IP.

Hey! Chris Gomez gets thrown out on the bases! Deja vu!

I admit it was me. Great throw to get Gomez at 2nd. A couple more like that and he'll actually make up for the men he's left on base tonight.

Let's hope that's the last deja vu event we see from Gomez tonight.

Cool list. There's a strategy that's been out of style for a long time. When you look at the list (39 players), you're looking desperately for anyone who was active in the last 50 years. All I noticed were Jackie Robinson, Carew, and Paul Molitor.

And driving them before us. And hearing the lamentations of their women.

Bonderman's in another jam, bases loaded and no one out. The game is tied at 3-3, Nixon, Ramirez and Ortiz due up. And he got out of it! Nixon on a shallow fly, struck out Manny, Ortiz grounds out. Not bad.

In Tampa, the Yankees got the first two men on: Kazmir struck out Phillips and Flaherty, but Bernie delivers the RBI single. 1-0 Yanks. Jeter grounds out to end the inning.

And in Tampa, guess who muscled up to hit a two-run homer off Mussina.

Alex Sanchez.

Hmmmm.

Get back here and hit, Sammy.

Sorry. I apologize unreservedly. I messed up.

Another hum-dinger (to use the technical term) of a ball game. Both starting pitchers scuffled a bit (Lopez early and Chacin late) - both hung in there and took a 2-2 game into the late innings. Lots and lots of fun stuff.

Might as well win it now.

Meatloaf?

That's the best part of the song, other than "I will love you till the end of time... so now I'm waiting for the end of time, so I can end my time with you"

One of my all-time favourite songs, thank you for reminding me of it.

An umpire should never be noticed. If a game goes by and you never notice the umpire, then he's done a pretty good job.

Course I love it when we get it.

A couple of very good days for Schoeneweis. As it turns out, he's not chopped liver.

Really? It seems like no team has done well against the O's. Many would consider the O's a playoff caliber team (or at least they're playing like one at the moment) and a team like that should have put the Jays away awhile ago as well.

I realize that you're thinking of the loaded bases opportunities, but I think the Jays should be given full credit for battling with a very hot team.

If he makes the All-Star team they do :) But until then they can make you a custom one for the same price. You always see Wells, Koskies, Halladays jerseys, I think a Zaun jersey would be a pretty cool obscure jersey. Not to put down the "I love Bob File" girl of course ;)

Two runs are nice, but with bases loaded again I want to see some more runs. Let's make this a non-save opportunity. Sorry, Miggy.

I hope I'm not the "I love Bob File" girl. I do have a Bob File game-issued 2003 jersey that I got there from the rack of older jerseys, but I'm not female. If you're referring to someone else, then uh...nevermind. :)

File was my favorite Jay last year, only because I was getting familiar with the team and he was somebody I'd seen at Rochester, Syracuse, and Scranton while he played for the Skychiefs.

I would love a Zaun jersey. #9 has been a 'cool baseball number' for me since I saw the Natural when I was 8 years old.

James has got it right. No question, Baltimore's been playing like a playoff team (although I'm confident that will change), but considering the amount of men we have had on third base or the amount of men we have had in scoring position with 0 out, a team making the playoffs this year probably would've scored at least one of them.

All you guys who complain every day would sound a lot more convincing if this team weren't playing winning baseball.

And magnificent work by Frasor and Schoeneweis, in Extremely High-Leverage Situations, against the team leading the majors in offense.

Great game. Again.

Hahahaha. No, I don't think you're the Bob File girl. The BFG, was some girl who sat behind the Jays bullpen with the jersey and a big sign that said "I love Bob File". She is also associated with the " The Cat(alanotto) House" girl.

One of my all-time favourite songs, thank you for reminding me of it.

My pleasure.

It only took 175 posts for someone to get it. But, like the Jays, someone finally got the 'win' :)

Syracuse had the night off tonight. And they have a couple guys who are going pretty well right now:

Justin Miller: 18.2 IP, 17 H, 4 BB, 17 K
Jason Arnold: 10.1 IP, 4 H, 1 BB, 10 K

Arnold's numbers look very encouraging. It's good to see him respond well after switching over to relief.

Miller, who was sent down to work on his control, appears to have taken some steps in the right direction, while keeping his K-rate and hit rate at acceptable levels.

Base salary       $ 3,500,000
60 appearances         50,000
65 appearances         50,000
70 appearances         50,000
20 games finished      50,000
25 games finished      50,000
30 games finished     100,000
35   "      "         150,000
40   "      "         150,000
45   "      "         150,000
50   "      "         200,000
55   "      "         200,000
60   "      "         250,000

Potential total    $4,750,000

Hawkins has the same deal for 2006, but with a player option that he'd probably take if he had a good year. If the Jays did get him, I'd be tempted to let Batista stay as the closer and hand Hawkins as much hard, high-leverage setup duty as I can find for him, a role he was great at in Minnesota.

I believe I am one of the leaders in the cool obscure jersey category for the Blue Jays. Of course, now I have a Koskie to add to my collection so I will be splitting the jerseys about 50-50 or so.

And, VBF, I believe Bob File and Catalanatto girl are the same person.

Don't forget the hit-by-pitch. Every little bit counts.

And I agree, the carping even when the Jays win games is tiresome. Even though Rod Black may be announcing some of the games, this is not figure skating -- how you go about it is not worth a single point. The only points are for the win.

And to be really frank, that guy who doesn't want to watch them because they're frustrating probably didn't want to watch them last year because they were losing; now that he can't use that old, tired excuse anymore, he had to think up a new one.

There's a fair amount of grass-is-greenerism going on here, too: Miguel Batista is still taking lumps for being an effective closer. Would you rather have Keith Foulke? Mariano Rivera? The Jays have a lineup that "can't hit", but compares pretty closely to the New York Yankees in almost all offensive categories, and we all know that the Yankees have a lineup that "can hit". Hell, even I know that, and I say plenty of useless bad things about the Yankees.

The Jays are in sole possession of second place after grinding out a 12-inning win against the first place team that has had surprisingly strong pitching, aided by an exceptional performance from the much-maligned bullpen. The fact that people can find something bad to say about the win has got to tell you something about fans in Toronto.

I never said I didn't want to watch the Jays; conversely, if they were the Royals I would still be watching every game and chomping at the bit to do so. My problem is that they aren't doing "what the should" at the right times. However, they seem to be producing more of these "opportune" situations than usual, and for that, they must be commended. But they SHOULD be capitalizing on these opportinities more than they have been. But they're pulling it off, and that's okay by me.

We hung tough. We had some missed opportunities early, said John Gibbons, Toronto's manager. It would've been a tough one to lose, but it doesn't matter because we didn't lose. How would I know how tough it would've been?

There was carping in 1992 and 1993 too, I recall. Some people just can't be satisfied.

Could this truly be the season the doomsayers have been talking about? The year of the age-induced Yankee implosion? Should make for some very interesting theater. Kind of like watching a train wreck.

As for Karsay, isn't he being released outright? An acquiring team would only have to pay him the league minimum, not assume his mammoth contract.

Ugh...that's a disgusting thought. Some players are just too good a person to become a Yankee mercenary.

For my part, I assure you I sat through the last seven innings on the edge of my seat (hell, by the 10th, I was sitting on the floor). Before that, I was doing an interview with ESPN radio and watching the GameDay.

Incidentally, I gave mad props to Chacin (who they actually asked me about - including how to pronounce his name) and his veteran-like savvy. So I consider myself personally responsible for his little blip at the end of the sixth - I praised him too loudly. We talked a lot about the Yankees struggles, and you'll all be glad to know I did not taunt them - therefore avoiding the possibiity that they'll get hot anytime soon.

Forgive me if I tire of the same pale complaints every day. Forgive me if I make that known. The need is not to "pick on every little thing" as you say - after all, I usually let WEEKS of pure crap go by before I say something - but rather to make the point that the complaints about the team seem hollow to me, as if people are searching for an excuse to say something.

And yet, if I even *mention* my dissatisfaction at this, someone inevitably jumps down my throat. Please understand, you guys have no idea how other people see this... I get comments from people (not Blue Jays fans) almost every day who cannot BELIEVE the amount of negativity and defeatism here, and among the fan base generally. To give one example, Aaron Gleeman (not exactly known for being uncritical of his team as his IMPRISON LUIS RIVAS campaign would attest) and I talk all the time about how twisted the Jays' fans' perception is of their team.

Again, I don't blame anyone particular for this. No one can be positive all the time, and we all get frustrated with players, managers, GMs, etc. I just find it maddening, I guess, that people will sift through the ashes of a fine victory (or even a well-played defeat) looking for an excuse to vent their anger on the team they support.

But like I said, you don't have to defend this behaviour. I do understand it. I'm choosing to address it because I disagree with it. I'm a "Roster Member" and all that, but don't take what I say as some sort of commandment from on high. I'm just another guy, adding my voice to the conversation.

That's reasonable, except that the game threads have gone from being great fun analytical recaps that I can read the next morning on the train to boring vent-a-thons in the space of a year. While this thread was certainly not the worst of them, the quality has dropped really significantly.

King Ryan: while no-one slagged Batista in this thread, are you honestly telling me that no one has been slagging Batista? Does that invalidate my point, or were you just nit-picking?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm trying to get our game threads back on track. And while it's great that a bunch of people chimed in about why Reed Johnson was in for Rios, why was that initial mean-spirited, everyone-is-dumb-but-me post there in the first place? Stuff like that makes the rest of us look like idiots, and really hurts the value of the site, especially when the reason why was right out there in plain view in Mike D's always excellent Advance Scout.

Flex made a comment in a game thread a few days ago about how he could count on Batter's Box for his daily dose of pointless negativity. What pisses me off about that is how true it has become.

It kind of makes my point though. Why jump down peoples throats when there isn't anything there? Both you and Craig admit that last night's thread wasn't that bad (and actually I find it quite resonable considering the >250 posts, you're bound to get some negativity). So why vent instead of appreciating the good posts.

Look I know you guys put in a ton of work here, and that some threads (especially when the Jays are losing) degenerate badly. I can understand that can give you a short fuse. I'm just saying that you guys picked on little things last night when there was no reason to (and Craig in a round-about way kind of admits as much). While you're right, that you should be able to vent your frustrations, also realize that as roster members, coming down on posters when they really haven't done anything also leads to the degeneration of the site.

BTW, I hope you guys realize I'm not trying to put you down, I understand your point of view. I'm just giving you another opinion from someone that wasn't involved either way.

I believe that indirectly, it will help contribute more than the brass seemed to have planned for in the off-season (plan B was for Womack to play LF???). Williams' glove was to be tolerated in CF given that he'd hit. He's not hitting, so the lineup now sees Cano taking his place. Throw in Womack and Martinez and the vaunted offense suddenly has 3 dead spots (to say nothing of the slumping/aging likes of Posada, Giambi, Sierra, etc.).

With respect to Pavano, I agree that he's likely a league average starter. That said, he has allowed 7 UER this year so his ERA masks his true performance to date.

Aside: While they're making radical moves, what about moving Giambi to the 2-hole? True he's as slow as an American president but he seems to have morphed into a 400/400 type hitter. His walks would be far more useful to the hitters in the heart of the order (who could score him with homers) than to those at the bottom (who'd need to score him with triples).

Because even with this thread being "less bad", it's not "good". And the good posts get lost in the junk, unfortunately.

It never stops. There was non-stop complaining, from the day spring training started, from fans and media. Both years. Cito Gaston was ripped and second-guessed beyond belief. It was a downright puzzle everywhere else in the baseball universe. The whole thing was absolutely bizarre sometimes. I clearly remember Mike Hogan ripping the team and the manager for, essentially, failing to win 110 games.

We've had hockey and football in this city a lot longer than baseball, and I think there's never been quite the emotional acceptance of the basic facts of baseball. Which is that the best hitters fail two thirds of the team. The best teams lose as many games in a week as the New England Patriots lose in a year. Sometimes they lose as many games in a week as th Patriots lose in three years. Many fans understand it intellectually, but not emotionally. Failure is normal in baseball.

I still don't understand Aaron. I just reread the entire thread and don't see what's so bad about it. There's some junk around the the Adams error, and quite a few throw-away lines (of which Craig B and 'super rook' Magpie both partake in), so what were you expecting?

There's some analysis of the missed pitches in the first inning (which you definately would not pick up in the boxscore); Some trivia about stealing; there's a good debate about where your best relievers should be used; there's some back and forth about the runners in scoring position trouble. There's lots of compliments about individual Jays players in the game, so it's not a negative thread at all.

I know if you and Craig both missed the first inning, you may think that people are exaggerating, but believe me they are not. Lopez threw four mediocre fastballs right down the middle and only Hinske swung at one.

Where is all the junk (and remember there are >250 posts)? I'm sorry I'm ragging on ya, but you seem to be doing the same that you're accusing others of.

Or something. Maybe it's more like insecurity. Torontonians think we're really great, but we're afraid we might be wrong. So we need either a) outside validation that we really are as cool as we think we are, or b) if we don't have the outside validation, we'll do the rip job our own selves. They can't mock us that way, not if we beat them to it.

JOOC, when 8 people simultaneously post "DUDE!" or "Going, Going Zaun", are those considered good posts or junk?

(While it may appear that way, I'm not trying to ask sarcastically...)

I'm not sure that most Western Canadians would agree with that assessment. I do, though, and think that it's a country-wide thing. Something I heard voiced more than once before 1992 was the idea that the Americans would never "let" a Canadian team win a World Series.

Personally, though, I think it's a lot better than having a serious "superiority complex" like some cities/states/countries seem to have.

And Craig B, I'm assuming you read Aaron Gleeman's blog. That guy has no right to criticise anyone for negativity. Even after the Twins demolish some poor team, he's writing on his blog about how Gardenhire fucked this up, or how Rivas sucks, or yadda yadda yadda. You don't get much more negative than Gleeman.

NFH, I can't remember anyone "slagging Batista" recently. Coming in here and yelling at us for "slagging Batista" when no one was slagging Batista is the very definition of needless negativity, isn't it?

The negativity that drives everyone nuts is the random name-calling at whoever's in a slump (hello, Vernon!) and that does diminish a little (it doesn't disappear, not by a long shot) when the team is winning more often than it loses.

As for the shouts of "DUDE" - and I do love yelling "DUDE" - I can tell you that much, if not most, of the Roster regards it as noisy junk. In my case, they're cutting the rookie a little slack - after all, when I'm actually at the ball park, I'm not allowed to cheer.

I partly agree. Real "analysis" is encouraged, whether it contains negativity or not. I'm sure others will point to articles by almost every roster member criticizing certain decisions made by Gibbons, JP, Godfrey et. al.

I think you are right, though, in that "insight-free" comments containing negativity seem to set certain people off, while "insight-free" comments containing positivity are (at least tacitly) given blessing. My reading of the Game Thread rules suggests this shouldn't be the case (*all* insight-free comments should-be discouraged), but it's what I'm seeing...

No, not at all. That's what always is tiresome about these conversations: asking people not to be negative without something to back it up is always interpreted as asking people just to chant "Go Jays Go". But please, look at Dunny's post: it is the prime example of what I'm talking about here: he takes a shot at the management for being destructive idiots because he didn't read the Advance Scout and because the reason for the move was not immediately obvious to him. Can't this be expressed in a more useful way? Even a "why are they starting Johnson when Rios is red hot" is a million times better than what he posted, because someone who knows can answer.

There's a difference between being pointlessly negative (and Flex's examples were perfect) and being critical. Criticism, with backup, is encouraged and welcomed. Venting and crapping on things because you don't understand them is not.

Batter's Box is aiming to be anything but a fan site. But pointless negativity (Menechino being referred to as "menestinko" the other night is another prime example) is not part of the plan.

That's right. Problem is, we're constantly being accused of being evil bloodsucking draconian overlords for trying to get people in line. It's a hard balance to attain, and we're trying to get there without irritating the piss out of everyone.

Further, pointless positivity is also not part of the plan.

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OK, but there have been many "complaints" about "pointless negativity" made by many different roster members, but I don't ever recall "pointless positivity" being criticized by anyone.

Can you (not you, specifically) not see why this difference would lead people to (justifiably) think that negativity is less tolerated than positivity is?

It's like a political humorist claiming to be impartial while only commenting on funny mistakes made by one party (in a two-party system). Even if one party is making more blunders, a truly impartial commentator (i.e. not Jon Stewart) would mock both parties. Someone who dislikes pointless messages would complain about both types of pointless messages, not just negative ones.

Personally, I like the idea of DaBox encouraging a positive slant (doesn't that fit Coach's original vision, anyways? An impartial Jon Stewart is still very funny), but if that's what happening, why not just admit it instead of getting defensive when people complain that negative comments aren't tolerated?

I had pointed out the Jays' failure to capitalize on their ability to get the runner in from third with less than two outs. This is a very specific claim; even Gibby backs me up on this. This was also a large reason that the Jays were swept by the O's at the Dome last week. I feel that I do, in fact, know what I am talking about.

That's reasonable, except that the game threads have gone from being great fun analytical recaps that I can read the next morning on the train to boring vent-a-thons in the space of a year.

The only venting I see unfit is the member-on-member slagging that I've seen; is this not a discussion?

Forgive me if I tire of the same pale complaints every day.

When the team improves upon this issue, I'll curb my comments about it. Otherwise, the protocall seems to be cheer when they win, slag when they lose. Poor analysis.

Even the manager of the Blue Jays admits it would have been a very tough loss because of missed opportunities. Why the need to pick on every little thing? I see lots of posts complimenting Chacin, Koskie, Frasor, Johnson and others. Why not just comment on those?

Because this is a discussion. I post and read because I value your opinions. If these threads were simply "rah-rah" dribble, I would cease to pay attention (understand that I bleed Blue more than anyone else I personally know.)

Consider what happens in the lockerrooms after a baseball games - even consider what epilogue your little league coach bestowed upon you after a victory. The coach is responsible for highlighting the good points of the game, and what aspects that could use some work. No team is flawless; we need the good with the bad. I chose to post about the negatives because so many of you (go team!) had already established our collective emotions and thoughts - that WE won, and WE love our team. I love our team, too; I just felt that another rah-rah posting would be redundant.

We should all take pride in our team's performance this year, as we should all value each other's opinions, justified or not. I would loathe to see this turn into a battle royale. We should take the good (which, seemingly, outnumbers the bad) with the negatives. I am both happy and proud with my team's performance. I believe that every aspect of the game is open for discussion, and I invite you all to discuss what you feel.

I totally understand. As I say, we *have* to have these disagreements, to some degree. And yes, people should feel free to disagree with me, whether about positive vs. negative or anything else!