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The Jays fall to .500 in a game that featured Ted Lilly, Microcosm: perfect through 3 2/3, he then gives up 4 runs.
Game 98 : Royals 6, Jays 5 | 43 comments | Create New Account
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Jdog - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#123690) #
Its like nobody wants deal with the loss so they stay away from instant replays after a game like today's.

After Menechino failed to get the run in from 3rd base with one out(in the 2nd), I felt that it was going to come back and bite us in the butt.
Flex - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#123692) #
I have to say it. This team is killing me. I'm dying here.
uglyone - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#123694) #
but look at the run differential!!!

damn, this team is killing me too.
VBF - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#123695) #
Its like nobody wants deal with the loss so they stay away from instant replays after a game like today's.

So true. After a loss, I just feel so crappy.

I have one question directed toward everyone. The Blue Jays have a 'never give up' mentality so much to the point that even in their losses, the games are close right to the end. But it always seems like our rallies come up too short. This also ties in with losing one-run games, but what's the solution? Is it the bullpen? Why are our rallies always coming up so short? It's incredibly frustrating that we're so close, but yet so far.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#123696) #
As frustrating as games like this are, just try and recall what things looked like last year. Ugh.

At least in '05 the Jays do not run the risk of finishing behind that AA team that plays in Tampa.
TorontoDan - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#123701) #
I don't know what it is, VBF....why we (almost) comeback in so many recent games, but it sure is frustrating. At least if we weren't scoring runs at all it would be easier to isolate the problem(s). I thought the odds were good for a sweep this weekend. Let's hope they can bring something big to the table against the Angels this week.
Jim - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#123702) #
I feel like it's the lineup. The Red Sox and Yankees seem to come back all the time. It's because they have ridiculous lineups with middle of the orders that scare the crap out of you.

The Blue Jays don't have enough guys that can change the course of a game in one swing. They don't have any more coming on the horizon either, but that's a whole 'nother story.
VBF - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#123703) #
So would an acquisition of a big bat be enough to turn today's L into a W?
Named For Hank - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#123704) #
...and further to VBF's question, would Koskie fit the bill?
VBF - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#123705) #
Injuries , injuries, we got injuries.

Don't know the status of Wells yet.

Lilly will be evaluated by Toronto medical officials on Monday. He retired the first 11 Kansas City hitters, but was tagged for four runs in the fourth inning and said he couldn't let his fastball go at full force without encountering significant shoulder pain. "We knew nothing about it until he came out of the game," Toronto manager John Gibbons said. "He was cruising, no hits."

Thanks for telling us, Teddy. He's now expected to go on the DL.

CeeBee - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#123706) #
Anyone heard the result of Vernon's xrays? All we need is to lose him for an extended period of time. :(
Also Lilly's shoulder woes seem rather troubling. We may be looking at a few more callups than just Koskie.
Jim - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#123707) #
I don't think that any one game can break down that way. Contrast how a game feels when it's Damon/Manny/Ortiz that are going to hit in the 8th or 9th against Rios/Wells/Hillenbrand/Hill or whatever combination of Blue Jays you'd like to put together.

I'm actually amazed that this offense has scored as many as it has. I keep waiting for the team to just stop scoring runs.
Dave Till - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#123708) #
This also ties in with losing one-run games, but what's the solution? Is it the bullpen? Why are our rallies always coming up so short? It's incredibly frustrating that we're so close, but yet so far.

I have a theory: when the opposing team gets a lead, they stop trying as hard for a while. This gives the Fighting Jays the opportunity to get almost back to level. But, when they get within one run, the opposition suddenly wakes up, bears down, and dispatches the Jays.

Other explanations: The starting pitching isn't good enough. Or (my favourite) the Baseball Gods delight in kicking Jays fans squarely in the unmentionables.

And of course Vernon's going to go down now - he's getting good. It's like flying too close to the sun - your wings inevitably get singed.

I suppose that Lilly didn't realize that his arm was bad. Pitchers deal with pain on a daily basis, and it takes a while to sort out the difference between ordinary, grit-your-teeth pain and ohmigawd, something's really wrong pain. But if he's having shoulder problems, it's a really really bad sign: doctors can fix elbows, but they rarely can fix shoulders. (Think Mike Sirotka.)

Magpie - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#123709) #
We hear sometimes that the Blue Jays play down to the level of their opposition, and having gone 5-5 in 10 games against three of the league's bottom-feeders... no wonder we hear it sometimes.

But it's not really true. Let me share ten minutes of research with y'all...

Opponent	        W	L	Pct	Jays W	Jays L	Jays Pct

Chicago White Sox	64	33	0.660	0	3	0.000
St.Louis	        62	35	0.639	2	1	0.667
Washington	        55	44	0.556	3	3	0.500
Boston	                54	44	0.551	8	3	0.727
Oakland	                53	45	0.541	5	5	0.500
Minnesota	        53	45	0.541	2	4	0.333
New York Yankees	52	45	0.536	2	3	0.400
Houston	                51	47	0.520	0	3	0.000
Baltimore	        50	47	0.515	5	5	0.500
Cleveland	        51	48	0.515	1	2	0.333
Chicago Cubs	        49	48	0.505	2	1	0.667
Texas	                48	49	0.495	2	5	0.286
Milwaukee	        48	51	0.485	1	2	0.333
Seattle	                42	55	0.433	4	2	0.667
Kansas City	        36	62	0.367	4	2	0.667
Tampa Bay	        35	64	0.354	8	5	0.615
The Jays opponents overall record is 803-762 (.513), but of course the Jays don't play them all the same number of times. It's actually been tougher. On a weighted basis, the Jays average opponent has about a 53-47 record (weighted opponents winning percentage of .531).

They have yet to meet Detroit and the Angels...

Lefty - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#123710) #
I just don't buy into this run differential stuff. Five blowouts either way can make a significant impact on RF. As well one needs to look at the competition.

Perhaps theres something to it at the end of the season and in comparision of teams within a single division.

But still it doesn't give me any comfort. What matters is wins and losses.
Lefty - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#123714) #
Off topic. If I'm Baltimore I'm sending my best ambassadors to sit down with Nevin and talk him into finishing this season an Oriole.

Whatever it takes to make him and his family comfortable. And if need be a promised to try and deal him back to the westcoast in time for next season.

The Orioles are completely lifeless right now and their fans are going to flip-out not having landed Burnett and now Nevin maybe. The team on the field needs a reason to believe too.

Lopez might be back tomorrow, that should give them a boost, but they in my mind, they are a team in need of a shot in the arm to snap out of it. Or maybe a slap on the head.
Lefty - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#123716) #


X-rays on Vernon Wells' shin were negative, and he's listed as day-to-day.
Wells will get tomorrow's off day to rest up. He's too hot to bench in fantasy leagues. Jul. 24 - 8:58 pm et

This info is better than a rolaid after a big bowl of MexiThai.

Mike Green - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#123717) #
If Lilly isn't ready to go on Saturday, I wonder who gets the start. Scott Downs? Chad Gaudin? Francisco Rosario?

I said in the first half roundtable that what made the Jays interesting and competitive was the unexpectedly average performance of the Yankees and Red Sox and the good health of the pitching staff. I wish to apologize for making the latter point; I guess that it's like alluding to a no-hitter in a broadcast.
Jordan - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#123721) #
They have yet to meet Detroit and the Angels...

And it's what, July 24th? They have got to do something about the scheduling in major-league baseball.

I said it at season's start and I'll say it again: the Jays are a .500 club, barring a lot of good luck, which has not been in abundance lately. Where they are now is exactly where they could reasonably expect to be. And if Lilly is out for any length of time, it might be awhile before they see .500 again.

Fun fact: sitting at one game above .500, at 48-47, are Carlos Delgado's Florida Marlins.

PeterG - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#123727) #
If Lilly cannot start, I sure hope that it's anybody but Gaudin. IMO, Gaudin only has one quality pitch(slider). The fastball is not major league and I haven't seen anything else. Bottom line, he is simply not a major league calibre pitcher. He will be waived before next season. There is no point in wasting a much needed space on the 40 man for this guy.
westcoast dude - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#123728) #
The A's pitched around Hinske twice and it worked for them.
A Koskie infusion is just what the doctor ordered.
Lefty - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#123730) #
Hey westcoast dude, what light station are you at?
Waveburner - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#123731) #
I think it's way too early to write off Gaudin. His fastball is major league calibre he has just had trouble locating it with Toronto. He's still just 22 with an above-average out pitch. I'd continue starting him in Syracuse and see if a 3rd pitch developes. His peripherals suggest he has ML talent. Though I admit that opponent batting average of his is scary.

Lefty - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#123733) #
If Lilly does have a significant injury, with Halladay still out and maybe Wells missing a few days then this season might becoming a write off. I hate to say that, really.

So what are the BlueJays starting pitching options? Does the team call up another youngster before he's ready for prime time?

This is it for Gaudin. With no options next season he either has to put up or shut up. I think it may be time to really find out if they have a real pitcher in him.

The concensus here seems to be demote. I think they'll have to wait and see.

Trial by fire, unfortunately the Jays may have little choice.
Waveburner - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 01:02 AM EDT (#123734) #
Just out of curiousity, because I know very little about baseball rules regarding "options", if they keep Gaudin on the 40 man this season but try and send him to AAA before next season begins, does he have to clear waivers? Thanks in advance.
The_Game - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 01:19 AM EDT (#123735) #
I don't see how anyone can write out this season yet. They are no farther back then they were at the start of this week. I mean wasn't everyone writing it off last weekend when the Jays lost 3 of 4 to the terrible D-Rays.. One game means nothing. It seems like some people might just be a bit angry over this series loss, and admittantly I am as well. But they didn't lose any ground, though coming out of these last few weeks with a few more wins would have helped the Jays playoff chances this year.

Lilly's injury doesn't mean much if someone can step up and do his job. If you want proof that young players can compete in Major League Baseball as the roles of veterans, just look at the Atlanta Braves this year. Although, that may only be a sign of great management, I don't see why the Jays can't do something along those lines as well. They obviously have the talent for it...
Ron - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 02:10 AM EDT (#123736) #
While it appears the Jays didn't lose any ground within the division, I would argue the past 10 games has done more damage to their playoff chances than it did helped them.

By not losing or gaining ground in the standings, they are actually in fact losing ground. By staying status quo the Jays are losing opportunities to make up games in the standings. If the season were to continue at this pace with the Jays not making up or losing ground to the Red Sox in the standings, they wouldn't win the division (assuming the Red Sox stay on top).

I made a pre all-star game post about the schedules of the Sox, Yanks, O's, and Jay's. The schedule favoured the Jays in a big way and to see them go .500 against the M's, D-Rays, and Royals is a huge disappointment.

But to be realistic, the Jays aren't a playoff team anyways. Just still being on the fringe of contention at this point is a bonus for us fans.

This is a season to find out what the Jays need going foward. It should also be a season to find out what young players should be in the long term plan. Don't ask me what happened to League or Gross though :)
Magpie - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 07:00 AM EDT (#123738) #
if they keep Gaudin on the 40 man this season but try and send him to AAA before next season begins, does he have to clear waivers?

He'll have to hear clear waivers. "Options" are actually "option years" - and "option years" are the first three seasons (or parts of seasons) that a player spends on a major league team's 40 man roster. During those three seasons, a player can be sent up and down whenever the organization likes. But because Tampa, for some idiotic reason, brought Gaudin to the majors in 2003, 2005 is Gaudin's third year on a 40 man roster.

Gaudin's out of options when this season is over. If they want to send him down but keep him on the 40 man roster, he would have to clear waivers. If they want to send him down and remove him from the 40 man, he would have to be designated for assignmment, and would have to clear waivers as well. (Like Justin Miller just did, for the umpteenth time.)

Jim - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#123739) #
'They obviously have the talent for it...'

The Blue Jays most certainly do not have the minor league talent at the upper levels that the Braves do. Andy Marte and Brian McCann (Sickels: "Possibly the best catching prospect in baseball right now.") alone are far more valuable then any position player that the Blue Jays have in their system.

The Braves also show how patience is rewarded with Wilson Betemit. Throw in Kyle Davies and Jeff Francoeur and the two systems really can't be compared at all.

The fact that Pete Walker has made as many starts as he has, already shows you that they don't have anyone to come up and take Lilly's spot. If they did, that person would have already been here.
Mike Green - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#123742) #
To answer my own question, if Lilly ends up going on the DL, I'd move Batista to the rotation for the remainder of the season with Speier moving into the ace reliever role, and Chulk in the set-up man role (Frasor needs to be handled gingerly right now). When Halladay returns, Walker would go back to long relief.
#2JBrumfield - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#123764) #
I see Rosario is starting tonight for Syracuse and if he pitches well, I think he'd earn consideration for the start on Saturday against Texas as I believe Bush would be the starter on Friday. Unless they make a deal at the deadline, this could be the scenario the team is looking at. Maybe Batista will go back to the rotation but he'd need time to stretch his arm out.
Gerry - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#123766) #
There is an off day today and another next Monday. Halladay is expecting to be back by the Yankee series, late next week. So there is a need for one spot starter, on Saturday. Scott Downs is my prediction for the start.
The_Game - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#123770) #
I wasn't comparing the Jay's minor league system to Atlanta's. Obviously, Atlanta has a more talented minor league system. I mean we are seeing great players come out of there almost weekly. Toronto doesn't have the depth of Atlanta in the minors but I was talking about the talent level of the Jays as a whole. With everyone on the team healthy, I can't find many weaknesses on this team at the moment (pending Koskie, Halladay, Lilly returning at their positions). I was merely stating that this thing could be done (playoffs), and one game is no reason to basically write off a season.

I've played on teams where the thinking was after we lost in the championship, "well we did better than we thought we would" but it's that kind of thinking from both players and fans, which limits the success of teams.
mistermike - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#123788) #
If Lilly cannot start, I sure hope that it's anybody but Gaudin. IMO, Gaudin only has one quality pitch(slider).

It's time to cut ties with Gaudin. I've watched him and he's awful. Not a major league pitcher. Heck, even Tampa Bay didn't deem him worth keeping around. If they need a spot start to fill in for Lilly, they should call up someone else from Syracuse.

westcoast dude - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#123794) #
Lefty, to answer your question, I'm at Nootka Lightstation at Friendly Cove, also called Yuquot. In the summer, the Uchuck sails here twice a week from Gold River. All Bauxites are welcome to visit.
jsoh - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#123795) #
Heck, even Tampa Bay didn't deem [Gaudin] worth keeping around.

Because the team who traded Bobby Abreu straight up for Kevin Stocker (to pick one example at random), is precisely the one whom you want to take personnel tips from.

(full disclaimer: I havent had a chance to actually. y'know. watch Gaudin pitch, so I dont have an opinion one way or another. Its just that the hyperbole is warping my fragile little brain)

ds - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#123799) #
Well, if Gaudin keeps pitching this way, his lack of options next year won't be one will claim him.
CeeBee - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#123805) #
It's way to early to write off Gaudin. He's 22 and has been shuffled around between starting and long relief... heck, who knows but with his arm maybe setup or closer will ultimately be his role.
Jim - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#123809) #
Gaudin would never get through waivers right now if they removed him from the 40 man roster.

I doubt his future is in the rotation, but he certainly looks like a live arm for a bullpen in the future.
Jim - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#123810) #
To expand on the age issue.

Casey Janssen born September 1981.
Shawn Marcum born December 1981.
Jamie Vermilyea born February 1982.
Chad Gaudin born March 1983.

In AAA this year
Gaudin 15 starts 101 IP 87H 21BB 80K 2 SHO
Marcum 10 starts 55 IP 65H 13BB 48K

Gaudin is clearly not ready, but it certainly worth his spot on the 40 man roster.

Lefty - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#123815) #
The question at hand though, is he worthy of a spot on the 25 man roster. So far at least this is akin to keeping a not ready for primetime Rule 5 guy around.

The Jays control his rights at least till spring training. So theres three options.

1) Keep him on the 25 man and see if a trial by fire will do him good.

2) Send him back down and hope he can develope further facing lesser competition.

3) Hope he can force his way onto the 25 man roster coming out of spring training 06

If he fails in any or all of those three senarios then perhaps due to shear numbers of players sent down at the end of spring he might slip through. In which case we can pick up this discussion again next season.

But at any rate, at this stage, no matter his age or potential attributes he is just fodder for major league hitters unfortunately. The Jays may loose his rights and he may develope with another club, but I think the team knew that going into this experiment.
Jim - Monday, July 25 2005 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#123818) #
I'm all for sending him back to Syracuse at this point in time. I pushed hard for his promotion, but he's not ready - send him back and bring him back in September.

I do think when he goes back they should put him in the back of the bullpen because that is where he appears headed to me on the major league level.

mistermike - Tuesday, July 26 2005 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#123863) #
Because the team who traded Bobby Abreu straight up for Kevin Stocker (to pick one example at random), is precisely the one whom you want to take personnel tips from.

Lol... good point!

Game 98 : Royals 6, Jays 5 | 43 comments | Create New Account
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