Yeah, yeah, no one likes to see guys strike out. But there are worse things a hitter can do. Much, much worse.
Like hit into 21 double plays in the season.
Pretty piss poor job of getting any type of hit that mattered and the pitching staff gets shafted once again. Matthew E said it best in the Game Chat, this is simply unacceptable. 4 losing seasons in 5 years, when do Jays fans just stand up and call BS?
Pretty piss poor job of getting any type of hit that mattered and the pitching staff gets shafted once again. Matthew E said it best in the Game Chat, this is simply unacceptable. 4 losing seasons in 5 years, when do Jays fans just stand up and call BS?
Whom shall we call BS on?
The management went out and found a very good pitching staff, and set up the lineup, on the smaller budget. This year, not a single hitter has had what could be called a good year. None of Hudson, Wells, Hinske, or Rios (the younger players) has even improved offensively, and most have regressed. Unfortunately, none were that good (Wells 2003 excepted) to begin with (offense only here, I like the defense), which makes everyone thoroughly mediocre, or worse. Due to the mostly unforseeable lack of improvement, I can't call BS on the management this year. Next year, should they fail to improve the offense (or at least make moves that look like they should improve the offense), we call BS on them.
If anyone, we need to call BS on the hitting coaches (but we just got a new one) or the players themselves. But it's hard to locate blame on a mediocre team like this. If only we had some truly awful players to blame, like Sosa, Lowell, Kendall, (who are terrible and cost a lot), it might be easier. Should fans boo? Stop going to games? Make angry phone calls to the FAN 590?
The Jays have met/exceeded most (not here, Jays fans tend to be optimistic) expectations held for them this year in terms of winning. They have had, more than any year I can remember, a tendency to lose in an infuriating manner. Is that better or worse than, say, last year? I think it's better. At least there's a reason to pay attention to games until the 9th most times. And there is hope (not entirely deluded I hope) for the future.
The management went out and found a very good pitching staff, and set up the lineup, on the smaller budget. This year, not a single hitter has had what could be called a good year. None of Hudson, Wells, Hinske, or Rios (the younger players) has even improved offensively, and most have regressed. Unfortunately, none were that good (Wells 2003 excepted) to begin with (offense only here, I like the defense), which makes everyone thoroughly mediocre, or worse. Due to the mostly unforseeable lack of improvement, I can't call BS on the management this year. Next year, should they fail to improve the offense (or at least make moves that look like they should improve the offense), we call BS on them.
If anyone, we need to call BS on the hitting coaches (but we just got a new one) or the players themselves. But it's hard to locate blame on a mediocre team like this. If only we had some truly awful players to blame, like Sosa, Lowell, Kendall, (who are terrible and cost a lot), it might be easier. Should fans boo? Stop going to games? Make angry phone calls to the FAN 590?
The Jays have met/exceeded most (not here, Jays fans tend to be optimistic) expectations held for them this year in terms of winning. They have had, more than any year I can remember, a tendency to lose in an infuriating manner. Is that better or worse than, say, last year? I think it's better. At least there's a reason to pay attention to games until the 9th most times. And there is hope (not entirely deluded I hope) for the future.
When low budget teams like the Indians and Athletics are right in the middle of pennant races, the excuses tend to lose their validity. The Athletics lost Octavio Dotel and Erubiel Durazo for the entire season, as well losing Bobby Crosby and Rich Harden for portions.
How many times have the Jays been shutout this season and what is the team record for being shutout in a season?
I don't think the J.P. Ricciardi can be mentioned in the same breathe as Billy Beane and Terry Ryan. He hasn't brought in much in the way of talent and the minors don't have much on the way. The guys he has brought in don't have very high ceilings. The Jays will most likely be full of mediocre young players, none of which look to have serious impact potential. That could lead to many years like this one where the Jays hover around the .500 mark.
I don't think the J.P. Ricciardi can be mentioned in the same breathe as Billy Beane and Terry Ryan. He hasn't brought in much in the way of talent and the minors don't have much on the way. The guys he has brought in don't have very high ceilings. The Jays will most likely be full of mediocre young players, none of which look to have serious impact potential. That could lead to many years like this one where the Jays hover around the .500 mark.
The Jays have been shutout 13 times this season, three times by a score of 1-0.
I do not know what the team record is, but last year they were shut out 12 times and in 2003 just 5 times.
I do not know what the team record is, but last year they were shut out 12 times and in 2003 just 5 times.
When you talk about Ryan or Beane, they've been involved in their organizations since the '90s. Ricciardi hasn't been around as long as these guys, and when he was hired, he had a year of dealing with albatross contracts like Mondesi and the like.
Not letting him off easy, but suggesting that there might be different criteria for his evaluation. And while we can say what we will about the offense, but there's no denying the improvement in pitching in the past two years.
...plus there are 15 games left in the season. If the team gets hot and finishes 4 or 5 games over .500, we'll all be talking about how this season was a marked improvement over last.
Just trying to keep some perspective in the face of a painful loss.
Not letting him off easy, but suggesting that there might be different criteria for his evaluation. And while we can say what we will about the offense, but there's no denying the improvement in pitching in the past two years.
...plus there are 15 games left in the season. If the team gets hot and finishes 4 or 5 games over .500, we'll all be talking about how this season was a marked improvement over last.
Just trying to keep some perspective in the face of a painful loss.
Ouch! The Jays have been shutout more this year than the awful 2004 team? That is not good at all. The offensive problems are going to be tough to address in the offseason with no real prospects on the way up and J.P.'s apparent inability to make a deal that will positively impact the Jays.
Everyone jumped on me for Suggesting to trade Wells, but seriously guys I think its time to consider it depending on what Assets we get in turn.
The middle of the lineup can't produce on a consistant basis, and that is the main thing that is holding us back. Seems we have some lower level depth in the lineup rounding it out nicely, but really not what we need.
This team needs an OBP man, and right now there isn't a single player who we can stick in the #3 spot and be happy with, hell there isn't even a player in the number #4 spot we can be happy with.
I know some of you don't like labelling guys by what order in the lineup they should bat, but sorry, Wells, Koskie, Hillenbrand. NONE OF THEM Fall in the Catagory of 3-4 Hitters.
#3 guy is supposed to be the total package (with speed optional), Abreu, Pujols, A-rod all come to mind as guys with the OBP, power, doubles, and hitting ability.
No, we don't have a #3 hitter in this lineup and that magic 8 ball doesn't think we'll get one any time soon, but those are the type of players we are expecting Wells to be, and quite simply he cannot fill that role. Not even close.
Anyways, thats my Rant for the night. I accomplished nothing.
The middle of the lineup can't produce on a consistant basis, and that is the main thing that is holding us back. Seems we have some lower level depth in the lineup rounding it out nicely, but really not what we need.
This team needs an OBP man, and right now there isn't a single player who we can stick in the #3 spot and be happy with, hell there isn't even a player in the number #4 spot we can be happy with.
I know some of you don't like labelling guys by what order in the lineup they should bat, but sorry, Wells, Koskie, Hillenbrand. NONE OF THEM Fall in the Catagory of 3-4 Hitters.
#3 guy is supposed to be the total package (with speed optional), Abreu, Pujols, A-rod all come to mind as guys with the OBP, power, doubles, and hitting ability.
No, we don't have a #3 hitter in this lineup and that magic 8 ball doesn't think we'll get one any time soon, but those are the type of players we are expecting Wells to be, and quite simply he cannot fill that role. Not even close.
Anyways, thats my Rant for the night. I accomplished nothing.
Some of you fellas need to relax. If you are thinking long term, you will realize that if the Jays finish in the bottom 15 teams in baseball the don't lose their first pick in in the draft if they sign certain free agents.
This year they have developed a bullpen, a good starting staff, have a gold glove 2B, a potential leadoff hitting SS, A. Hill, etc. They have about 10 pitching prospects ready to help in the next 2 years. They finally have something resembling depth in pitching, infield and outfield after years of watching the Chris Woodward's of the world get starts. They are maybe two big bats away from really having a really good team and you are griping? These things take patience (see Oakland, Minnisota, Cleveland). Maybe a another winter of watching your impatient Leaf's crap out will remind you of that.
This year they have developed a bullpen, a good starting staff, have a gold glove 2B, a potential leadoff hitting SS, A. Hill, etc. They have about 10 pitching prospects ready to help in the next 2 years. They finally have something resembling depth in pitching, infield and outfield after years of watching the Chris Woodward's of the world get starts. They are maybe two big bats away from really having a really good team and you are griping? These things take patience (see Oakland, Minnisota, Cleveland). Maybe a another winter of watching your impatient Leaf's crap out will remind you of that.
The Jays have been shutout 13 times this season
Houston leads the way, of course - they've been shut out 16 times, 8 times when Roger Clemens was pitching.
San Diego and Oakland have been shut out 12 teams.
Some pretty decent teams at the top of the list. The teams that have been shut out the fewest times this season are the Yankees (twice), Tampa Bay and San Francisco (four times each.) Which suggests that it doesn't really have that big a relationship to winning and losing.
In defense of JP
#1 correct, the depth is far superior this year, and he has fielded a decent team despite the big free agent (Koskie) injury + Halladay.
#2 He now (even if he didn't have payroll) can make a trade with prospects or talent and have a bare cupboard.
#3 The numbers overall have shown improvements in the total team numbers, you win as a team not as an individual slugger.
#4 Their numbers are similar to Oakland or Cleveland's overall, they just play in the most evil division in baseball!
#5 Last, please give him time. He needs another GM to make the trade with or he has to overpay, or wait for player development.
#1 correct, the depth is far superior this year, and he has fielded a decent team despite the big free agent (Koskie) injury + Halladay.
#2 He now (even if he didn't have payroll) can make a trade with prospects or talent and have a bare cupboard.
#3 The numbers overall have shown improvements in the total team numbers, you win as a team not as an individual slugger.
#4 Their numbers are similar to Oakland or Cleveland's overall, they just play in the most evil division in baseball!
#5 Last, please give him time. He needs another GM to make the trade with or he has to overpay, or wait for player development.
I as well feel a rant coming on.
There are more than a few q's I would love to ask not only J.P. but Gibby as well.
Maybe close to the top of my list is why is Rios in right and not G Gross,one of many reasons I would have the latter in is his nonstop hustle on every ball ala tripod.
A few games back ole Reeder ran full tilt like always on a ground ball that was a sure out then steps up Rios and loafs to 1st.
I'm not sure if this was the play that sat him but I have seen so many plays where he has not once dove for a ball when that kind of effort is what was called for on the play.
Grrrrrrr.
Thank God I'm not the manager.
I still say this team lost some much needed momentum after Gross was sent down after what I thought may have been 2 very pivotal plays by him in less than a wk..........the throw home and the slide into second to break up the dp.and bail out another loathsome AB by Vernon.
Did the Jays place the wrong guy in right out of training camp?
You tell me.
I'm beginning to pick up the vibe via the press that management is none too happy with Rios' and their acumen pertaining to his on field endeavours is acute to say the least.How could it be otherwise?
He has all the tools,it seems, and hopefully with time they can iron out these character ticks but I would have given my I teeth to see Gabe with the team for the entire year.
I know he's young(Rios) but that argument loses it's strength with each passing game.
However the most infuriating part of this team is night after night they have consistently wasted those good arms.
Those championship teams always had more than a few players who you always wanted up with ducks on the pond.
Olerud,Alomar,Molitor, and going back further it was Bell,Fernandez,Garcia.
I have yet to feel that same confidence with any Jay this year.Boy does that speak volumes.
I wish J.P. much luck this off season in securing some "confident" bats.
I like that he said recently that nobody is off limits with regards to a trade'cept Halliday.
Wait and see I guess.
There are more than a few q's I would love to ask not only J.P. but Gibby as well.
Maybe close to the top of my list is why is Rios in right and not G Gross,one of many reasons I would have the latter in is his nonstop hustle on every ball ala tripod.
A few games back ole Reeder ran full tilt like always on a ground ball that was a sure out then steps up Rios and loafs to 1st.
I'm not sure if this was the play that sat him but I have seen so many plays where he has not once dove for a ball when that kind of effort is what was called for on the play.
Grrrrrrr.
Thank God I'm not the manager.
I still say this team lost some much needed momentum after Gross was sent down after what I thought may have been 2 very pivotal plays by him in less than a wk..........the throw home and the slide into second to break up the dp.and bail out another loathsome AB by Vernon.
Did the Jays place the wrong guy in right out of training camp?
You tell me.
I'm beginning to pick up the vibe via the press that management is none too happy with Rios' and their acumen pertaining to his on field endeavours is acute to say the least.How could it be otherwise?
He has all the tools,it seems, and hopefully with time they can iron out these character ticks but I would have given my I teeth to see Gabe with the team for the entire year.
I know he's young(Rios) but that argument loses it's strength with each passing game.
However the most infuriating part of this team is night after night they have consistently wasted those good arms.
Those championship teams always had more than a few players who you always wanted up with ducks on the pond.
Olerud,Alomar,Molitor, and going back further it was Bell,Fernandez,Garcia.
I have yet to feel that same confidence with any Jay this year.Boy does that speak volumes.
I wish J.P. much luck this off season in securing some "confident" bats.
I like that he said recently that nobody is off limits with regards to a trade'cept Halliday.
Wait and see I guess.
These things take patience (see Oakland, Minnisota, Cleveland).
Patience? No more.
The Indians have managed to go from perrenial contenders to re-building and back to exciting contenders in less years than it has taken the Blue Jays to exist in the Ricciardi-era.
The Oakland A's supposedly retooled and rebuilt this offseason and remain competitive.
I'm exhausted of excuses of patience for this Jays regime. JP has not been able to bring any player of real talent. If we cannot evaluate our GM on that criteria, what is left? I'm totally fed up.
Patience? No more.
The Indians have managed to go from perrenial contenders to re-building and back to exciting contenders in less years than it has taken the Blue Jays to exist in the Ricciardi-era.
The Oakland A's supposedly retooled and rebuilt this offseason and remain competitive.
I'm exhausted of excuses of patience for this Jays regime. JP has not been able to bring any player of real talent. If we cannot evaluate our GM on that criteria, what is left? I'm totally fed up.
I know it's against their religion, but a sac bunt to move runners in a 1 - 0 game would be nice to see once in a while.
Please JP stay away from the Koskie type FAs in the off-season. The wrong side of 30, often injured, average output, medium-large money guys.
Please JP stay away from the Koskie type FAs in the off-season. The wrong side of 30, often injured, average output, medium-large money guys.
Cleveland's done a heck of a job rebuilding, but to be fair they benefitted a ton from the ill-advised Colon trade Minaya made.
BB has suddenly become very negative. But I mostly agree with you.
For me, it's all about this offseason. JP has money and prospects to burn. If he cannot bring two genuinely good (as opposed to overrated) marquee players to Toronto, then he's a failure as a GM. His strategy of drafting pitching and trading for bats only works if you can trade for bats...
But it's probably not correct to criticise his record to date in bringing in big players. He didn't have the money until after the last postseason was over.
For me, it's all about this offseason. JP has money and prospects to burn. If he cannot bring two genuinely good (as opposed to overrated) marquee players to Toronto, then he's a failure as a GM. His strategy of drafting pitching and trading for bats only works if you can trade for bats...
But it's probably not correct to criticise his record to date in bringing in big players. He didn't have the money until after the last postseason was over.
I have to say, expecting JP Ricciardi to take responsibility for the poverty of results by this team has come to seem a bit like expecting George W. Bush to admit his administration makes mistakes.
Now, if even GWB can come on national television and admit he messed up with Katrina and let down the populace of New Orleans, then maybe even Ricciardi will come on the air after a game and say, "You know what? I haven't done a very good job of turning this team into a winner. I've made a lot of excuses for my failures when, really, it comes down to me and my player and scouting choices. I'm sorry. The fans of Toronto have a right to expect better, not just from this team and these players, but from me."
And if one more caller comes on Wednesdays with JP and says "Hey, JP, love what you're doing! Keep it up!" I may cry.
Now, if even GWB can come on national television and admit he messed up with Katrina and let down the populace of New Orleans, then maybe even Ricciardi will come on the air after a game and say, "You know what? I haven't done a very good job of turning this team into a winner. I've made a lot of excuses for my failures when, really, it comes down to me and my player and scouting choices. I'm sorry. The fans of Toronto have a right to expect better, not just from this team and these players, but from me."
And if one more caller comes on Wednesdays with JP and says "Hey, JP, love what you're doing! Keep it up!" I may cry.
There are so many problems with things said in this thread I don't even know where to start. In fact, comments like Flex's I won't even dignify with a response. As for some of the other ones...
I think most teams would be pretty happy with Vernon Wells hitting #3 or #4 for them. Clearly Pujols, Abreu, and ARod are three of the best this game has.
Last year was clearly awful. This year has been much more unlucky than ugly. A team that is 15-28 in one run games and is a full 16 games to .500 off their expected win/loss is nothing but luck (and perhaps a blown Batista save here or there). Outscoring opponents by 60 runs and 3 games under?
How can one fault JP for Rios? Rios is a high ceiling guy who hasn't developed. It's all JP's fault. Even though JP didn't even draft him.
To say the Jays have no "high ceiling" players at all in the minors is just untrue. It's mostly true with the bats however.
The Indians spent 3 years in the crapper. The Jays in the land of Riccardi have spent ONE year significantly below .500 and it was '04.
Not that it means anything, but from 1960-1995, the Indians finished higher than 4th exactly one time, and it was a third place finish in 1968.
For the more recent set of Tribe, I, and most, think there are a lot of parallels between them and the Jays. Bad for a few years. Real crappy year when the rooks are playing all the time ('04 for TO, '03 for Cle), rooks further got their feet wet in the following year to a record right around .500 (80-82 for Cle last year, I expect about the same for TO).
The Indians so far have just gotten luckier than the Jays. Sizemore, the all-world prospect developed the way everyone thought, Rios didn't. Don't-call-me-Johnny Perralta developed into a star faster than Adams or Hill. Hafner and Blake blossomed when maybe it appeared they were too old to get significantly better. Wickman at 36 can actually close games? Who would have put their money on him being the better closer than Batista?
Despite this I would still take the '06 Jays to finish better than the '06 Indians. The future is not doom-and-gloom. I'm surprised a relatively meaningles loss in September to the 208M payroll Yankees has everyone's undies so in a bunch.
I think most teams would be pretty happy with Vernon Wells hitting #3 or #4 for them. Clearly Pujols, Abreu, and ARod are three of the best this game has.
Last year was clearly awful. This year has been much more unlucky than ugly. A team that is 15-28 in one run games and is a full 16 games to .500 off their expected win/loss is nothing but luck (and perhaps a blown Batista save here or there). Outscoring opponents by 60 runs and 3 games under?
How can one fault JP for Rios? Rios is a high ceiling guy who hasn't developed. It's all JP's fault. Even though JP didn't even draft him.
To say the Jays have no "high ceiling" players at all in the minors is just untrue. It's mostly true with the bats however.
The Indians spent 3 years in the crapper. The Jays in the land of Riccardi have spent ONE year significantly below .500 and it was '04.
Not that it means anything, but from 1960-1995, the Indians finished higher than 4th exactly one time, and it was a third place finish in 1968.
For the more recent set of Tribe, I, and most, think there are a lot of parallels between them and the Jays. Bad for a few years. Real crappy year when the rooks are playing all the time ('04 for TO, '03 for Cle), rooks further got their feet wet in the following year to a record right around .500 (80-82 for Cle last year, I expect about the same for TO).
The Indians so far have just gotten luckier than the Jays. Sizemore, the all-world prospect developed the way everyone thought, Rios didn't. Don't-call-me-Johnny Perralta developed into a star faster than Adams or Hill. Hafner and Blake blossomed when maybe it appeared they were too old to get significantly better. Wickman at 36 can actually close games? Who would have put their money on him being the better closer than Batista?
Despite this I would still take the '06 Jays to finish better than the '06 Indians. The future is not doom-and-gloom. I'm surprised a relatively meaningles loss in September to the 208M payroll Yankees has everyone's undies so in a bunch.
Thanks Flex, you've put me in mind of a new tagline for this website: "including a gratuitous swipe against George W. Bush in every thread since 2002".
I think the biggest problem in analyzing any G.M. is time frame.
In the NFL, drafted players( with the odd exception of some NFL Europe guys), immediately make the team and within 3 years generally you know if they are productive starters. Also due to the hard cap all teams start at the same relative financial basis. Making an assessment of a G.M. 3-4 years out, would seem fair.
In the NBA it's similar,(except for perhaps drafting a young high school or Euro player),draft choices are on the team and their is a salary cap.
In the NHL it gets harder. Players are drafted at 18, and it takes 3-4 years to see how a draft choice pans out or becomes a team regular. The new hard cap ensures all teams are on the same footing.
Baseball is the toughest sport to analyze G.M. success. The drafted players take 4-5 years to become regulars/and or even make the team.(drafting college players accelerates the time frame) There is no reasonable salary cap, so everybody starts at a different financial level.
Ricciardi may be doing a poor job, but who knows until about 2008
In the NFL, drafted players( with the odd exception of some NFL Europe guys), immediately make the team and within 3 years generally you know if they are productive starters. Also due to the hard cap all teams start at the same relative financial basis. Making an assessment of a G.M. 3-4 years out, would seem fair.
In the NBA it's similar,(except for perhaps drafting a young high school or Euro player),draft choices are on the team and their is a salary cap.
In the NHL it gets harder. Players are drafted at 18, and it takes 3-4 years to see how a draft choice pans out or becomes a team regular. The new hard cap ensures all teams are on the same footing.
Baseball is the toughest sport to analyze G.M. success. The drafted players take 4-5 years to become regulars/and or even make the team.(drafting college players accelerates the time frame) There is no reasonable salary cap, so everybody starts at a different financial level.
Ricciardi may be doing a poor job, but who knows until about 2008
My comparison of Ricciardi to Bush is relevant only in that both share a penchant for fobbing responsibility for their failures onto others. I challenge anyone to come up with one instance where Ricciardi publicly said "I goofed." But you're right, Four Seamer, the swipe at Bush was gratuitous, because Bush's mistakes are wildly disproportionate to anything Riccardi has done.
I had a nice long reply to you for the 3/4 hitter question, but my net just crashed so it was lost :(
However, I got through the 10 Teams in the AL East/AL Central.
We have the Worst #3 hitter in that entire Bunch,
*every other team's #3 hitter hits better than VW out of that group of 10*.
This includes detroit's revolving door in that crazy pitcher's park.
However, I got through the 10 Teams in the AL East/AL Central.
We have the Worst #3 hitter in that entire Bunch,
*every other team's #3 hitter hits better than VW out of that group of 10*.
This includes detroit's revolving door in that crazy pitcher's park.