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On Friday night, someone made a monumentally idiotic decision: after the Jays loss to the Yankees, the song "New York, New York" was played over the Rogers Centre sound system.

I was so fiercely angry about it last night that I wrote the following comment and came very close to posting it. I decided not to, to give myself a day's distance to calm down, but it hasn't worked.
Fellas, why don't you just field a team with only three defenders or something when New York or Boston comes to town? Then you could guarantee them a win along with guaranteeing that fans of the Jays won't make too much pro-Jay noise near them. And then you can play New York New York after the game! And maybe even show highlights of great New York teams of the past on the big ol' scoreboard! Just think of how many New Yorkers you'll attract!
Some of my irritation and anger comes from my own experiences at games when New York has come a-callin'. I've been moved because I cheer too loudly and it has disturbed New Yorkers on more than one occasion. Those of you who attended games with me in '03 or '04 can attest to the fact that while I can generate a lot of noise with my lungs I have always opted for "clean" cheering and the mildest form of heckling imaginable. But for engaging in the scoreboard-led cry of CHARGE, I've been asked to move. (Okay, maybe it was the "O-VER-RA-TED" chant for Derek Jeter, which seemed to offend a lot of New Yorkers. They reacted like I was telling Mother Theresa jokes.)

We had to fend for ourselves when New Yorkers were throwing beers at us when we had the drum at a game. One older security guard told me that if we wanted to have the drum at a game we'd just have to deal with beers being thrown on us.


Why do we have to feel like we're the unwanted fans when New York comes to town? Even the souvenir guys run up and down the aisles selling Yankees flags and Yankees caps. It's disheartening.

Now, I fully understand and support the idea of making money. I've been trying to make money for years with mixed results. But would the Yankees fans not come out if they were treated like visiting fans rather than visiting royalty? They can't get a ticket at home -- that's why they come to see the team here! Sure, give them a package deal with hotels and shows and meals, it's great for the whole city. But for crying out loud, don't pretend that they're some better class of citizen than your local fan who has the potential to buy 60 more tickets than a New Yorker.

I felt more comfortable as a Jays fan, vocally cheering for the Jays while decked out in Jays regalia, at RFK in Washington than I have at the Rogers Centre when New York has been in town, and there's something wrong with that.

Mrs. Hank won't go to games when New York is here anymore. And I really don't think I will, either. It's just not fun or pleasant.

We had planned to go to three or four more games this year, but we're both angry enough about "New York, New York" that we're going to skip the rest of the season. Sure, we'll watch on TV or listen on the radio, and the Jays won't lose much if any money on us because we're Season's Passers. Couple of cups of coffee, couple of slices of pizza, a meaningless drop in the bucket. But I can't think of how else to express our massive displeasure.
New York, New York? What the hell? | 59 comments | Create New Account
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Pistol - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:11 AM EDT (#128172) #
Unless the goal is to look like a second rate organization this was simply an unacceptable and embarrassing decision that insults every one of the Jays players and fans.

King Rat - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:46 AM EDT (#128175) #

I was steamed Friday night as I left, listening to that terrible song playing over the loudspeakers. I, too, will not be attending any more games in person this year, though it's more because I'm leaving Toronto for the rest of the season than because of any outraged principles.

A parable that I think is instructive: I have attended games at two ballparks this year, Fenway and SkyDome. In Boston, if you look for any gear of the visitors, the locals will look at you as though you have two heads. I spent an entire day scouring Beantown for a cheap adjustable strap Jays caps, and couldn't find anything with a bird on it for love or money. The attitude of the Red Sox seems to be that if you want to pay to root for their team's opposition, that's fine, but they're certainly not going to help or encourage you. Whereas in Toronto, as NFH suggests, efforts will be made to make the visitors feel right at home. I'm not suggesting that visitors' fans should feel uncomfortable; they paid for their seat and they have a perfect right to root for Robinson Cano if they want to. But there's nothing wrong with driving home the point that they are the visiting fans, and playing the Yankees' celebratory song after a freaking Yankees win is not the way to do that.
JaysFanInCT - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#128176) #
Even though I typically disagree with most of what you have to say, NFH, I agree with you completely on this issue. This is completely inexcusable by the Jays and really makes me angry. The Jays have a lot to learn about how to run team and a stadium. It's supposed to be unpleasant for the visiting team and their fans, like it is in New York and Boston. Forget the Yankees and their fans. Toronto owes them nothing! I'd rather see bird crap on a Yankees hat in the newspaper than hear New York, New York in the Jays house. That is just despicable. Living in the New York area, I have a deep hatred for the Yankees and the people who root for them. Going to Toronto to see the Jays used to be the one way I could get away from these "people" but it appears that that isn't even the case anymore and that is not good. I am insulted by this and I am angry.
Andrew K - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:56 AM EDT (#128179) #
I wonder if it's worth putting these complaints in writing to Godfrey? Obviously it would be filtered out somewhere below him on the food chain, but the message might at least get through to management that they should treat their home fans as the #1 priority.
JaysFanInCT - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#128180) #
I wonder if it's worth putting these complaints in writing to Godfrey? Obviously it would be filtered out somewhere below him on the food chain, but the message might at least get through to management that they should treat their home fans as the #1 priority.

I think it is worth trying. The message has to get through to Jays management that this is unacceptable and will not be tolerated by the Jays fans who support this team. Toronto is NOT a second home for the Yankees and their fans.

costanza - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#128181) #
Okay, now... is there anyone out there who, in the "good old days", ever made the trek to Cleveland, Minnesota or Seattle to join the thousands of Jays fans rooting for the road team? Didn't these teams go out of their way to encourage "cross-border rooting"?

Nick - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:19 AM EDT (#128182) #
As a Jays fan in Buffalo, NY, this infuriates me. While Buffalo is 6 hours away from New York and only 2 hours from Toronto, the overwhelming majority of MLB fans in Western New York are Yankee fans. I take an immense amount of crap from this arrogant bunch and it has been nauseating that my best comeback for the last 12 years has been something stupid about payroll instead of arguing about who has the better players.

Many of the Yankee fans in the RC are from Western New York. When the Jays advertise around here, which they have done this year 100x more than they ever have before, the ads mostly feature who the visiting team is (NY or Boston typically). Like NFH, I understand they are trying to put asses in the seats, but never have the Jays mentioned the names Roy Halladay, Vernon Wells, Orlando Hudson, or anyone else in an ad here. It would be one thing if it was NY or MLB doing the promotion, but it is the Toronto organization promoting NY and Boston.

When most people around here are cheering for NY and Boston, they can point to their history, their historic ballparks, their all-stars, their recent playoff success - it sucks because I have little to say in return. I have been hoping for 12 years that the Jays could turn it around and I could join the relevant conversation about MLB in September and October and have people take me seriously. It is frustrating, but players will change, the roster can improve, there can be hope. But when crap like this happens (or the whole Boo Matsui thing a coupe years ago), I am ashamed and embarassed. It is irrreversible and unforgettable. Nothing can change what happened and Toronto will always be thought of as a bush league operation by many people just because of this incident.

I support and will continue to support the team in the hopes that some day things will be different, but after another frustrating loss, this story has just about put me over the edge with this organization. Whoever made the decision to play that song should be fired. Period. That person's boss and that person's boss's boss should also be fired. I can not think of a more egregious example of ineptitude by any sports organization ever. Ever. I know the person pressing the button to play the song is probably some low-level employee, but the fact that an atmosphere has been created where something like this is even remotely possible is disgusting and repugnant.

NFH, I appreciate your passion. Sometimes when around my stupid Yankee friends, this site is the only proof I have that anyone out there besides myself even gives a crap about this team.
Ducey - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:28 AM EDT (#128183) #
Got to go with Costanza here, the only live Jays game I ever saw was in Seattle in the Kingdome. There were more Jays fans than Mariner fans there. They were happy to have us. Bought a Jays cap from a wide selection of them. I think they even gave deals on the exchange.

Mind you they didn't play "Okay Blue Jays" after the game. It seems the playing of New York, New York after the game is over the line. Maybe Rod Black was in charge of music selection and Jeter mentioned something to him while Rod was delivering Jeter his drycleaning.
Keith Talent - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:38 AM EDT (#128185) #
Seattle, back in the Blue Jays hey-day, used to take CANADIAN MONEY AT PAR when you bought tickets, souveniers, food, anything. They would bring down Canadian celebrities to sing the national anthems. Blue Jays fans outnumbered Mariners fan by at least 3-to-1.

(They may even have played "OK Blue Jays" at the 7th inning.)

They called it "Canada Weekend" and nobody there really cared, even though we were getting all our stuff cheaper than American, Seattle fans.

I was at the game on Friday and I actually didn't hear that "New York, New York". It's such a stupid song anyway that if I did hear it I would think that somebody in the box was just being ironic, making fun of that monotonous routine of theirs.

But then again.... we play that infernal U2 song along with the doubly cringeworthy "We Are Toronto". Yes, that's the first thought I think when we score a run in the 9th: "I am Toronto! The CN Tower is the tallest free-standing structure in the world!" I don't get it.

If the Blue Jays and Yankees were neck-and-neck for a playoff spot it would be completely different. As it is, I would say the Blue Jays fans are louder than the Yankees fans when the Blue Jays pull ahead of these games. It's nothing like Kingdome was back in the late-80s, early-90s. It was downright embarassing for the hapless M's back then.

Ask hitting coach Mickey Brantley about it, he played for the M's back then.
Keith Talent - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:43 AM EDT (#128186) #
Nick, good to read your comments. I'm just curious, were there ever lots of Blue Jays fans in Western New York? In the good old days?
costanza - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:51 AM EDT (#128187) #
Just to clarify, I do agree that playing "New York, New York" isn't something I'd personally like to see.

(I suppose this article is confirmation that VBF was mistaken here? Nobody contradicted his statement in the thread)

I merely disagree with the idea that the organization, in welcoming Yankee and Red Sox fans, is doing something wrong, or "second-rate". Personally, I think that getting too worked up about the presence of visiting fans is what would make the team/fans seem "second-rate"... the good old Canadian "inferiority complex" rearing its ugly head. (See how Ottawa reacts to the Leafs coming to town for a similar example...)

From my perspective, if Yankee fans want to flock to Skydome, it's a good thing. Why not try to milk anything out of them "we" can? One good thing the Senators do is charge more for tickets to Leaf games (don't the Sabres also force people buying Leaf-Sabres tickets to also buy tickets for other games?). I really do think that making money off fans of another team is a positive thing... but that's just my opinion...

BallGuy - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 08:00 AM EDT (#128192) #
I don't have a problem with it. I think it's great that a bunch of Jays' fans are getting riled up about it; it just makes you hate the Yankees more. I am sure that playing this song was not done to insult the Toronto fans or cowtow to the visiting Yankee hordes. It enhances the atomosphere at the game. It'll pump up the NY fans and get the Jays' fans angry. But most of all it's FUN. C'mon folks, let's not forget to have some fun at these games.
Perhaps some alternative lyrics are needed.

here's a start:

Start spreading the news
I've got something to say
Do I want to be a part of it? New York? NO WAY!

I won't cheer for that overpaid team full of creeps....

someone pick it up from here...
It's just a song played after a game; turn it around to make it fun for Jays's fans and have a dig at NY fans.
Keith Talent - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#128195) #
Like I said, I won't confirm they actually played "New York, New York" ; because I was at the game until the very end, and was one of the last to leave, and didn't hear it.

So, it's not like it was FINAL OUT and then NEW YORK, NEW YORK. Maybe somebody is over-reacting to something they thought they might have heard?

Don't know.

Anyhow, the whole scoreboard routine, etc. when the Yankees come is just the same as against any old team. And I think the Jumbotron camera people go out of their way to avoid showing Yankee fans on the Jumbotron.

New York fans come to Rogers Centre: So what? I hope they have a good time. We should be showing what gracious hosts we can be.

And NFH, those people getting upset at the OVER-RATED chant when we were doing it last year, I'm positive, were Blue Jays fans!
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#128196) #
They did play it - it's been confirmed by quite a few sources.
Rickster - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#128197) #
If the Mariners were doing it in the 80s, I think it is best to do the opposite. That franchise is not a great model, though maybe the Jays could accept US money at par.

That "We are Toronto" thing is embarrassing, especially when playing a team from a great city like NY. It screams "inferiority complex".

But playing New York, New York after the last two losses is like punching your fans in the gut.
Pistol - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#128199) #
I'm just curious, were there ever lots of Blue Jays fans in Western New York?

No. I think a lot of that is because Toronto got a franchise in the 70s whereas the Yankees had already established roots throughout the state.

However, I was one of the exceptions. Having been born a few years before the franchise existed I didn't have any loyalty to the Yankees and because I didn't have cable until about 1990 the Yankees were rarely available on TV. As far as I was concerned the Jays were my local team. It was just a couple hour drive to Toronto and I could pick up the games on TV every Wednesday and Sunday (ah, the power of the old school TV antenna on the roof).
Thomas - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#128200) #
I don't think NFH has a problem with the fact the RC sells Yankees hat. They have a few kiosks where they sell caps for every major league team in the building and that's fine by me.

I get angry when I see the guys who operate the small stands outside the game yelling at Yankees fans saying, "Need a hat? Does your son want a flag?" I get mad when I see the guys who go up and down the aisles carrying more Yankees goods than Jays goods.

Playing the song does make me angry, and I agree with what NFH says. While teams may have had comparable cross-border promotions before, that doesn't necessarily make them right if you disagree with that sort of thing. Furthermore, it isn't solely the catering to Yankees fans, it's the abuse NFH has been subject to that also angers him. I can support what he says as I witnessed almost every incident he described.

The biggest problem is that the Jays seem to create an environment in which Yankees fans feel comfortable loudly cheering for their team (although they will stop a few thing like frequent profanity), but they hassle Jays fans who try to show a similar vocal committment to their team.
smcs - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#128221) #
I have had a chance to attend many Yankee-Jays game at the RC over the past couple of years. It is nice to see the seats more than half-filled every once in a while. I sometimes find the Yankees overbearing and annoying, but I am mostly disappointed with the Jays fans. Earlier this year, I was at the April 20th game against the Yankees where the Yankees won 11-2. What was most dissapointing aout the game were some of the Jays fans shouting "Yankees Suck." This is possibly the dumbest cheer you can do. The Yankees this year have not played as well as they could have but they have not sucked. Since 1994, the Yankees have not won the division just twice. The Jays have never managed to finish better than third place. The Yankees have not sucked, they have been excellent. I do not like the Yankees at all but I know that they don't suck.

The only fans that have the true right THIS YEAR to say that the Yankees suck are the Red Sox, the White Sox and the Cardinals. The Braves also have the right to say that they suck in the Regular Season, but lose all credibility in the playoffs.

Jays fans had the right to say the Yankees sucked when the Jays were winning two World Series. However, over the past decade, the Yankees have been better.

So I ask you, if the Yankees suck, then what do the Jays do?
Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#128229) #
I think the biggest problem in analyzing any G.M. is time frame.

In the NFL, drafted players( with the odd exception of some NFL Europe guys), immediately make the team and within 3 years generally you know if they are productive starters. Also due to the hard cap all teams start at the same relative financial basis. Making an assessment of a G.M. 3-4 years out, would seem fair.

In the NBA it's similar,(except for perhaps drafting a young high school or Euro player),draft choices are on the team and their is a salary cap.

In the NHL it gets harder. Players are drafted at 18, and it takes 3-4 years to see how a draft choice pans out or becomes a team regular. The new hard cap ensures all teams are on the same footing.

Baseball is the toughest sport to analyze G.M. success. The drafted players take 4-5 years to become regulars/and or even make the team.(drafting college players accelerates the time frame) There is no reasonable salary cap, so everybody starts at a different financial level.

Ricciardi may be doing a poor job, but who knows until about 2008/2009 ?
Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#128233) #
Whoops, obviously the wrong thread for my last entry.

Dave Till - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#128247) #
I'm wondering whether the decision to play "New York, New York" was made on the fly by some guy in the video booth. And I would hope that he was told, politely but firmly, not to do that again.

Jays fans have always been quieter and more polite than visiting fans. One of the least pleasant experiences of my baseball fan life was sitting in the North Grandstand of Exhibition Stadium in 1984 watching the Jays lose to the Tigers late in the season. Detroit swept the series, and the stands were full of exuberant gloating Tiger fans.

As for the migrating hordes of ravenous Yankee fans :-) : there's not much the Jays and their fans can do about it, other than win a lot to shut them up.
Mike D - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#128249) #
Dave, you're absolutely right. Let's hope today's game was a good start.

Look, I completely agree with what most people have said here. I was a very loud Blue Jays fan in the crowd at yesterday's game, and it was a fun rivalry in the stands. But let's not be afraid to sell these tickets as Blue Jays home games. It's not like it'll make the Jays-Yankees matchup any less enticing to the Cheektowaga Evil Empirists.

Thomas hit it on the head -- if you want to stock a kiosk with goods from all 30 teams, fine. But do not -- do NOT -- send vendors into the stands with Yankee flags. The couple hundred bucks isn't worth the price of our soul as a franchise. Yankee Stadium sells *no* other clubs' merchandise. It's embarrassing to prostrate ourselves for fans from Buffalo -- a AAA city, for crying out loud! (No offence to our Jays fans from WNY.)

I hope we're able to get a Jays employee to step into Da Box and see if we can get them to commit to (definitely) stopping pro-Yankees music and (hopefully) laying off the Yankee merchandise from the in-stands vendors.
Ron - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#128250) #
I don't see anything wrong with RC vendors selling Yanks gear in the stands.

The goal of any business is to make money and if the Jays feel like this is a way to make a buck then so be it. Judging by the crowd response there looked to be an opportunity to sell Yanks gear to their fans.
Chill - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#128251) #
There's something related to this that has been bothering me the last few years. It's the presence of opposing players on the cover of my Playball program. I have no problem reading an article about Ichiro, Jeter, etc. in the magazine, but for God's sake, is it wrong to think that the programs sold at Blue Jays home games should have Blue Jays players on the cover?

And I too, have a problem with vendors selling Yankees gear. The majority of major league stadiums have a pro shop where one can purchase jerseys and caps for all Major League teams, and I understand that the Jays need to make money...but it infuriates me when the vendors are running up and down the aisles later in the game with piles of Yankees flags and caps.

It's great that the organization wants to portray itself as a classy, welcoming organization, but I don't understand the need to downplay the fact that visiting Yankees fans are entering the ENEMY'S stadium; that they are attending a Toronto Blue Jays home game.
Pistol - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#128254) #
"The goal of any business is to make money and if the Jays feel like this is a way to make a buck then so be it. Judging by the crowd response there looked to be an opportunity to sell Yanks gear to their fans."

I suspect that the Jays can specifically see that there's a slight uptick in merchandise sales during Yankee games. Which is why I'm sure they do it. But in their attempt to get the extra dollar from fans that'll come to one or two Yankee games in Toronto each year they are alienating the home fans who'll come to many, many more games and are watching many more on TV. And that lost opportunity from alienating the home fans is much, much more difficult to measure and likely not even considered by the people making the decisions. But if this thread, or apparently the people talking with Wilner on Friday, is any indication it there certainly is a loss associated from pandering to the road team.
Named For Hank - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#128265) #
So, it's not like it was FINAL OUT and then NEW YORK, NEW YORK. Maybe somebody is over-reacting to something they thought they might have heard?

No, I have confirmation from a couple of reliable sources that New York, New York was played. It was not the first song played.

I'd be overreacting if I were responding only to the playing of the song, but the song is more of a catalyst that has brought up a lot of bubbling irritation that's been down there for a while now. It was clearly a bad decision to play the song, and I'm not foolish enough to believe that the people in charge of the team at the top are the kind of micro-managers who dictate what song is played when. And I also don't believe that the people at the top really know how the fans in the stands are treated. But that really doesn't matter, because we're still treated like a bunch of trouble who should be grateful to be allowed through the doors.

Last year I spent a staggering amount of money and time on signs (it's terrifying what those materials cost) and organization, and my big thank-you was "you should expect to have beer thrown on you". It just took New York, New York for me to finally get angry enough to write about it here. The Roster can tell you, I've spewed about this stuff a few times to them over the past year and a half.
Mike Green - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#128297) #
It's an odd counterpoint- last year's "Boo Matsui" marketing fiasco, and this year's sychophantic "New York, New York" playing. It's really simple. Fans root for the home team, and within the bounds of civility, this is to be encouraged.
VBF - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#128298) #
The Boo Matsui ad is blury. Just for clarrification, what exactly happened?

I'm just pouring it on now, but I agree with most of the comments. The money made on the flags is hardly enough to justify losing our identity. If someone was visiting from a foreign country and went to the game and didn't know what team was Toronto, they'd have a hard time telling you who was the home team.

I hate Yankee games because of the fans. And not even the noise. I hate people wearing Yankee caps. I hate the logo in all ways. But that's irrelevant.

You don't need to cater to Yankee fans. Believe me, they're an independant bunch. If they want a flag, they can walk up the aisle, go to the Jays Shop and buy it. Whether you promote series in Buffalo they're going to come anyways. They'll spend as much as you tell them to. Charge $30 for a flag and they'll spend it. Management needs to realize that they don't have to be catered to.

And I said this to Santa (if you've ever seen Santa at the games)on Friday. Yankee games do bring out the best in Jays fans. We were louder. Our cheers for Vernon Wells when he stepped to the plate were louder than their cheerd for Sheffield. We make the most noise, and we come out in the biggest numbers.

Question: For those Jays fans that were in Detroit this year (and I heard there were ALOT of Jays fans there) did the Tigers cater to you in any way? I had a friend down there and she said that Jays fans were often louder than Tigers fans.

And smcs, saying 'Yankees Suck' isn't correct, technically. But it's something you say. It's a trademark, a motto really. They make t-shirts that say it. There's a website dedicated to it. It's not accurate, but it's just common practice.

And I too would like to send this thread to Paul Godfrey. Not just the song, but for everything mentioned here.
VBF - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#128299) #
Oh, and I don't have a problem with the We are Toronto bit. I don't like being told to make noise, but I don't think Jays fans are going to do it on their own.
Lugnut Fan - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#128303) #
My wife and I caught a Jays / Yankees game in Toronto in late April. I must say, I was in shock by all the Yankee merchandise on sale (along with Boston) and the apparent posturing by the organization to tailor to the fans that made the trek north of the border to follow the Yankees. I hate the Yankees and this upset me to know end. I only had to put up with it for one night and then we were watching them play the Orioles so I only had to put up with it for one day, but I can say that things like that don't happen in Detroit when the Yankees visit.
costanza - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#128312) #
And smcs, saying 'Yankees Suck' isn't correct, technically. But it's something you say. It's a trademark, a motto really. They make t-shirts that say it

Just don't try wearing one in Seattle... :)

#2JBrumfield - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#128316) #
At yesterday's game, I saw someone hocking Yankees flags and all things Yankee in section 518. As he attempted to make his way up the secton, an older gentleman told him to "Get lost!" and it was funny seeing the concession guy crawl away and leave the section, tucking his tail between his legs.

I understand the Jays wanting to make a buck but why didn't this concession guy bring some Jays stuff to sell as well? It would save him a bit of abuse anyway. I'm sure it was orders from upper management.

The guy from England, who was sitting next to me, couldn't believe how the crowd was pro-Yankee. I told him, sadly, it's a fact of life around here.
VBF - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#128317) #
Would anyone know how to contact the Blue Jays? I'll go to guest services tonight and complain, but I doubt that will do anything.
Pistol - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#128318) #
"I'm sure it was orders from upper management."

I can't imagine anything related to concessions comes near upper management.
costanza - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#128324) #
The guy from England, who was sitting next to me, couldn't believe how the crowd was pro-Yankee. I told him, sadly, it's a fact of life around here.

Not trying to be facetious (yes, for once), but do people actually prefer games with 15,000 Blue Jay fans and 35,000 empty seats over the games with 15,000 Jays fans and 15,000 Yankee/Sox fans? (and... um, math... 20K empty seats)

#2JBrumfield - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#128325) #
Would anyone know how to contact the Blue Jays? I'll go to guest services tonight and complain, but I doubt that will do anything.

As mentioned by Andrew K in this post, I think sending a letter to Paul Godfrey would be the best way to go. I've had a problem with a few Jays ticket sales reps over the last couple of years regarding the Season Passes and I wrote to Paul Godfrey about it just recently. I won't bore you with all the details but in just over a week, it was problem solved.

Named For Hank - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#128354) #
The Boo Matsui ad is blury. Just for clarrification, what exactly happened?

There was a lot of buzz about Matsui joining the Yankees, and the Yankees were the opening day opponents for the Jays (I think -- or at least it was some time in the first month of the season). So the ads said something like "Come out and see Japanese superstar Hideki Matsui's MLB debut... and boo him" and pictured was a Yankee cap with bird poop on it.

Personally, I thought the ad was hysterical.
VBF - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#128359) #
What the hell is wrong with that ad? It's genius!


I visited Guest Services today before the game. I walked up to the small booth, stated my problem and was not only treated with hostility about filing a complaint, but the lady denied that the song was played. I said he it was, and she shook her head like I was lying.

Then, hope. The head honcho (for lack of a better description it's the Asian guy) walked by and noticed my complaint. He did ackknowledge the song was played and apologized. He didn't like it either and said it won't happen again. I still though maintained the feeling among Jays fans that Yankee fans are catered to constantly and his response was that they want to be good hosts and make some money. I say gimmey a friggin break. That's ridiculous. At some point you have to say "yes we can make money, but we lose our identity". The management can't say no.

And I honestly wonder why. Rogers brings in so much money, do they really need a Yankee merchandise revenue stream? Do they really need to put a Home Hardware logo on everything? Can't we just have a regular K-Kountdown or a regular truck race?

Heck, does it have to be the Rogers Centre? Can't we have the payroll boost AND keep the traditional name? Why not Carter Field or Terry Fox Memorial Stadium? We're taught to believe that Ted Rogers gave a payroll boost like some sort of charitable donation. And that while we're so thankful, we should just let him name it whatever he wants. No, we should have both.

This mentality is why the Rogers Centre SkyDome security and in game staff are the way they are. It's the feeling that "well, we let you in, so do us a favour and keep quiet" which is what we're so angry about. They think they're doing us a favour.

Rob - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#128360) #
Yes, they were the Opening Day opponents in 2003. (Remember? Jeter, Huckaby, third base, ouch?)

And I didn't see what was so bad about that either. Booing a superstar Yankee in Toronto...I guess that's not acceptable?

The only anti-other team thing that really bothered me was during an Angels-Jays game in 2002 or 2003. They showed Ace on the then-Jumbotron taking a Rally Monkey and:
- firing him out of the T-shirt cannons into rafters where he would crash violently and fall to the Astroturf
- jumping on him with huge baseball cleats
- stretching him out like those rubber dolls
- smashing him with a bat over and over again

I can get behind the whole "let's-make-life-tough-for-the-visitors" (which, ironically, is the exact opposite of the New York, New York incident) mindset, but they went way too far with the Rally Monkey abuse. Of course, it was two years ago at least, so things have changed.

And for the record, I don't go to games when the Yanks are in town. If I wanted to go to Yankee Stadium, I would.
VBF - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#128362) #
Not to mention that they're absolute pushovers. So the Yankees tell your fans to stop drumming, and you listen to the Yankees? They have no backbone and the lack of baseball education or background makes their decisions uneducated and not about the fans. What they think is good is something entirely different.

Keith Talent will love this. When I told him I felt like I'm losing my identity as a Torontonian at Jays games he said "well, we have the 'We are Toronto' bit". And while I pointed out earlier that I don't have much of a problem with it, the We are Toronto bit really doesn't have a place at a baseball game.
VBF - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#128364) #
What's wrong with destroying a monkey? As long as it's not/was alive, it's alright.
Rob - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#128365) #
There's good mascot abuse (such as Bruiser the Hamilton Bulldog elbowing the Manitoba Moose mascot in the chest as they race up the Copps Coliseum stairs) and bad mascot abuse (such as ripping a stuffed monkey's head off and firing it out of a cannon).
JayWay - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 12:57 AM EDT (#128367) #
So it's ok when an actual person gets elbowed, but when a stuffed animal receives abuse it's out of bounds?
Rob - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 01:25 AM EDT (#128371) #
The Hamilton-on-Manitoba abuse is good-natured. (At least it was in the season I attended games...2003-2004, I believe.) They take turns being the goalie in one-on-one hockey. They race up the stairs, tripping over each other. They run to get subs at Quizno's, but the moose always gets there just as they run out of sandwiches.

I don't see anything inclusive (or to be honest, funny) about destroying a Rally Monkey in the ways I described.

Yes, even if it is stuffed.
JayWay - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 01:39 AM EDT (#128377) #
While it may not be terribly funny, I also don't think it's terribly offensive. So in actuality, it's hit and miss, just like everything else the Jays do. In that case, I don't see much wrong with it.
costanza - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#128388) #
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that people are getting so worked up about the playing of a song that they didn't even hear...?
VBF - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#128389) #
It's principle. If terrorist bombs a building and I don't see it, I am still angered.
Named For Hank - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#128396) #
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that people are getting so worked up about the playing of a song that they didn't even hear...?

I didn't think you were one of those guys who'd lay down for the Yankees when they come to town, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Get seats close to the field and shout "DEREK, I LOVE YOU!"

I think if they played 'OK Blue Jays' after a Jays win in Yankee stadium there would be a riot.
costanza - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 12:24 PM EDT (#128409) #
I don't know how you got that from that statement. And, if you ask me, it's the Blue Jay fans who are refusing to go to Yanks-Jays games that are "laying down". (FWIW, when the Leafs come to Ottawa, and the Corel Centre is filled with their obnoxious, annoying fans, I certainly do NOT lie down).

Anyways, I was just picturing VBF's argument with the Guest Services lady.

VBF: I'm so angry you played "New York, New York" on Friday.
GSL: We didn't play that.

VBF: Yes, you did.
GSL: No, we didn't

VBF: Yes, you did. I was here and it made me SOOO mad that... umm... well, didn't notice it, actually... I thought you played a Paul Anka song ...
GSL: So did we play it or not?

VBF: Well, I read on the internet that you did!
GSL: Oh, I see. Sorry, I guess you must be right. Why didn't you say that in the first place?
costanza - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#128411) #
In that scenario, you would be a guy who *did see* the bomb hit the building, but was too wrapped up in <insert something amusing here> to notice.

Only after getting home and getting on your computer would you then realize how angered you should have been about something you saw but didn't notice... that's why I found it funny. Sorry, I guess it's just me.
Named For Hank - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#128412) #
Costanza, NY NY was not the first song played. That's where the confusion comes from.
Jonny German - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#128414) #
I'm with Rob about the Rally Monkey, I also thought they crossed the line between "good-natured rivalry" and "distastefully violent".
costanza - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#128421) #
... and nobody thought to point this out before? If it was played well after the game ended, it isn't quite the same (much less "bothersome") as firing it up right after the loss, which is what I thought had happened, given what was stated here.

How many people were actually still present and paying any attention when the song was played? Hundreds? Dozens? Given this new information, this now seems much more like a trivial thing to me than it did before.

Was it the second song? The third? Did VBF even know, when he filed his complaint?

(I had pictured the Yankees players on the field, celebrating the victory to the cheers of thousands, while hearing the song being played. That certainly would have bothered me. If at least one song had completed, that certainly would not have been the case)
VBF - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#128423) # was sorta like that. But NFH doesn't lie and sure enough he and his sources were right. If I had heard the song, I would have indeed been very angry at that moment and probably complained at that time. Nobody told me how I should react.

Mike D - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#128425) #
Costanza, with respect, I have to say you're missing the forest for the trees.

The issue is not specifically when and whether VBF identified New York, New York. Here's an analogy for you, since you identified yourself as a Senators fan.

Presumably, you're OK with the Sens putting ads in Toronto papers and charging "premium" prices for Leafs-Sens games. The Senators make tons of cash on the game, and it's a fun atmosphere in the stands.

But imagine the following happened: A direct-mailing campaign from the Senators reaches homes in the GTA. It's a glossy brochure with pictures of Tucker and Domi on the cover, with the headline "Are you having trouble getting Leafs tickets?" Inside, the brochure says, "Come check out Mats Sundin, Eddie Belfour and the Leafs -- but in beautiful Ottawa! Great seats are available, and now you can see the Leafs in lower-bowl seats. You can't get that opportunity in Toronto!"

Cut to the game. Corel Centre concession workers walk through the stands with Leaf flags and t-shirts, stopping every time they see a kid with a Leafs jersey to offer them merchandise. Both teams' fans are really into the game. Not until there are five minutes left in the game, however, does the arena scoreboard start to flash "Go Sens Go." The Sens fans go wild, but it's not enough. The Leafs wind up winning a close one.

Then, as you're filing out with Leafs fans lingering in the arena to hoot and holler, a few songs get played. Then Fifty Mission Cap plays, and the Leafs fans go crazy.

Now do you see VBF's point? It's simply bush-league of the Jays to do what they did. Yankee fans will come regardless of whether they get catered to. Certainly, Leafs fans show up in Ottawa and Buffalo despite being anti-catered-to.
costanza - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#128431) #
I understand VBF's POV. I understand NFH's POV. I guess I'm flattered that you're taking the time to try to explain it to me. I just don't see it as being a big deal, personally. If the Sens did what you're suggesting doing Leaf games, I wouldn't care... there are still about 10 other things they do during every game that annoy me more than that would.

I guess I'm sorry for not having the same opinion on this issue as others, and trying to suggest that perhaps the organization doesn't deserve the venom it's getting on this issue. (Like I didn't think they deserved the venom they got for the Boo Matsui thing, for instance)

Here's what I find amusing -- somebody was *in the building* while this highly offensive thing was done, but it was obviously done unobtrusively enough that he didn't notice it. Yet hearing about it afterwards, he's suddenly enraged enough to file a complaint? It sounds like an overreaction to me... YMMV. I found that ironic (maybe in that Alanis doesn't own a dictionary way)... again, YMMV.

More to the point, the fact VBF and others didn't notice it at the time also suggests to me that it was done in a very subtle manner (I'd think that if Yankee fans were 'going crazy', people would have noticed), something that isn't being taken into account by people who weren't there to see/hear how it was *actually done*?

Oh, and if you think Sens-Leaf games in Ottawa are a "fun atmosphere", you've clearly never been in the Corel Centre parking lot after a playoff game...
VBF - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#128432) #
It wasn't like I was sitting in my seat while it was played. I was in North East ramp (the furthest ramp from the majority of people and general noise) and heard a muffled tune of which a voice which sounded Paul Anka-ish. I noted it to Alex and we had come to the conclusion that Mr. Anka was dreadfully trying to Jazz up Pantera (See his new CD).

Point is, the in game sounds aren't fed to the ramps so it wasn't like it was being played to my face while I twidled my thumbs. And the people who were in a position to hear it were in anger such as the man I spoke to, or other fans I spoke to a day after who also heard it.

costanza - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#128433) #
VBF, my sincere apologies if it seems like I was trying to make fun of you. These will be my last words on this subject.
VBF - Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#128435) #
Oh not at all. No worries. I found the dialogue quite funny.
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