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This Day in Baseball Seattle 4, Toronto 2
Toronto’s Charlie Wholestaff can’t quite match Seattle’s Gil Meche and a cast of thousands.

Okay, not quite thousands – but there were 4 Holds and a Save awarded in this game, that’s not something you see daily.

 Star of the Game: Maybe it’s just because they’re on the west coast, but the Mariners to me are one of the most uninspiring squads in the American League. It’s fitting to me, then, that nobody stepped up to grab the Star of the Game. Gil Meche gets it by default, with a good-but-not-great outing of 5 1/3 innings, 2 runs on 5 hits and 2 walks with 7 punchouts.

 Unsung Hero: J.J. Putz is no longer just a cool name – He collected his 32nd save (albeit in nervous fashion) and is having an excellent season with a 2.21 ERA in 69 innings with 87 Ks and a 0.91 WHIP.

 For the Jays: Vernon Wells belted his 32nd homer and added a single, while left fielder Adam Lind kept rolling along with his 5th double in 7 big league games.

Booting It: Aaron Hill, right fielder Frank Catalanotto, and Troy Glaus were all charged with errors, but the Mariners scored no unearned runs.

Boxscore’d

Elsewhere in the East: The Yankees whupped Tampa with a 9-run first inning, Boston survived a Mike Timlin 4-run meltdown in the ninth to edge Baltimore . New York’s magic number to eliminate Boston is 9. Toronto sits 2 ½ back of the Red Sox.

If the Season Ended Today: You’d have these first-round playoff matchups:

Twins @ Yankees

A’s @ Tigers

Padres @ Mets

Dodgers @ Cardinals

The Season Doesn’t End Today: But we do have a potential playoff preview as Oakland’s best, Danny Haren, takes on the key to Minnesota ’s postseason dreams, Francisco Liriano in his first start back from a month on the DL.

Today: A.J. Burnett draws Cha Seung Baek in a 4:35 PM EDT contest.

Posted by Jonny German on Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 10:00 AM EDT.
Seattle 4, Toronto 2 | 122 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#155292) #

I think the Rich Lederer comparison of Luis Gonzalez to Lind is a solid one.

Coincidentally, both played college ball at South Alabama.

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Mike H - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#155296) #

It was mentioned in the above Adam Lind blurb that he might be Toronto's starting left fielder in 2007.  I've debated this recently with my friends and as Mike Wilner keeps saying on the Post Game it seems unlikely the Blue Jays would give the starting job to a guy who has less than 200 at-bats above AA ball.  Surely for this to happen, Vernon Wells would have to be traded this offseason.  I think Lind could potentially fill the DH hole for next year, but most teams are reluctant to plug young players in that role anyway.  Although he looks quite comfortable at the major league level right now, we still have to remember it is a small sample size.

Not sure at what price Toronto should try and keep Vernon Wells, but I'm not entirely comfortable with a 2007 outfield of potentially Reed Johnson/Frank Catalanatto/Alex Rios/Adam Lind.  I think Frank Catalanatto is a pretty well kept secret around the league and will not get offered a starting job on another club.  I'm also not convinced that Troy Glaus alone can carry the "home run" portion of Toronto's offence.  I think Lyle Overbay will continue to progress, but losses in power to Vernon Wells (not to mention average, defence, etc.) and to Bengie Molina could make the team a little less robust offensively.

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Skills - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#155297) #
I agree with all that has been said thus far about Lind. Although it is tremendously exciting to have a legitimate hitting prospect rocketing up to the Majors and playing well, the Jays would be unwise to rely (heavily) on him next year. One reason is that his performance thus far is still within the honeymoon period, it is his first time around the Majors, and he has yet had to deal with making adjustments/counter-adjustments. Another reason (or perhaps the same reason put differently): the lesson of Josh Phelps.
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SK in NJ - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#155299) #

I don't see what the big deal is with starting a rookie in LF. The key would be to hide Lind as much as possible, meaning improve other areas of the offense to negate any struggling that Lind might endure (i.e. acquire a good short-stop and catcher). It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Let's face it, with all the backloaded contracts eating up future salary, the Blue Jays will have to start plugging prospects into Major League holes. Lind might be one of those prospects. This is where Ricciardi's drafting really needs to start kicking it in high gear.

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Ryan Day - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#155301) #

  There are plenty of questions about the 2007 outfield.  Obviously Vernon is the big one, but Catalanotto is another. If Cat wants a two-year deal with a promise he'll play the outfield, would you sign him knowning Lind will be ready by 2008, if not much sooner?  Or do you count on Reed Johnson being your full-time left-fielder until Lind is ready?

  The one big upside to Lind is that he's adapted to each new level very quickly, and even improved a bit at each stop. It wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to bet on that trend continuing.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#155302) #
There are many reasons not to offer Cat a 2 year contract with substantial outfield playing time both years, with defence and budget being the top two on the list. 
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Pistol - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#155303) #

You probably don't want both Lind and Cat playing in the OF at the same time, but otherwise I don't have any issues with the Jays signing Cat.  With the exception of 2004 when his numbers seemed to drop due to his injuries he's been a pretty consistent .800-.850 OPS guy.  He's making $2.7 this year which is pretty good bang for the buck (and I think he certainly outperformed his current contract which many questioned at the time).

The difficulty with two years is that the Jays would have, assuming no trades, 5 OFs and 4 positions (including DH).  By 2008 Lind should be an everyday player and he and Cat would be a little too redundant.

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Four Seamer - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#155304) #

The difficulty with two years is that the Jays would have, assuming no trades, 5 OFs and 4 positions (including DH).  By 2008 Lind should be an everyday player and he and Cat would be a little too redundant.

This also assumes that Wells is either extended in the off-season, or re-signs with the team after the 2007 season.  I don't see a concern with offering Catalanatto a two-year deal, since I don't expect the dollars to be prohibitive, and it's always a good idea to have surplus talent on hand, provided the cost doesn't cripple the budget.  Injuries will happen, and certain things - ie., whether Wells is back for 2008 or not - may be out of JP's control.

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Ron - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#155305) #
I wouldn't get too excitied over Lind because of the small sample size. Aaron Hill was amazing when he got called up before his numbers came back to earth.

I like what I've seen from Lind so far but he's not a sure bet. I do hope the Jays give him more time at LF to get him more experience.

A year ago, people here were drooling over a future starting rotation of Doc, McGowan, Romero, Purcey, and Bush.



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Mike Green - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#155306) #
To be clear, I think Cat will be able to hit until he's in his late 30s.  He is a fine professional hitter, and one always can use a couple of those around.  It is the commitment that he get substantial outfield time for a couple of years that would be a problem.  By 2008, he may or may not be a significant defensive liability.
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John Northey - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#155307) #
Thinking about defense and Cat and Lind got me to thnking about how certain people talk about the Jays not caring about defense and the like (especially after Hudson was traded).

Checking Baseball Prospectus they have Defensive Efficiency charts up.  Basically, what percentage of balls in play did the defense make an out on.

Year   %   AL Rank
2006   705    3 No more Hudson
2005   709    5
2004   698    6
2003   694   11
2002   699    9
2001   688   11 Last Ash year
2000   684   11
1999   687   11
1998   704    4 Tim Johnson, Canseco in OF - big shocker
...
1993   701    9
1992   719    3

So, for Ash's last 3 years the Jays were among the worst in the league for defense.  JP has been improving it year by year though.  Huh.  Bit different than the perception.  Of course, looking at an outfield with 3 CF'ers and having a third baseman who can play short, a second baseman who can play short, a solid first baseman and a glove specialist at short right now I guess it makes sense.

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Ron - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#155322) #
WWJP:

- Adams might be going to Winter Ball
- Still thinks Adams will be a good hitter
- McGowan will be going to the AFL. Thigpen and Cannon will also be there
- Thigpen is like Jason Kendall with more power. Throwing (arm strength) is his biggest weakness. Most likely a number 2 hitter. Thinks he can hit .270-.300 with 10 HR's in the Majors. Hopefully will be with the Jays sometime next season.
- Thought the Jays could have won 90-92 games going into this season assuming everybody was going to be healthy and productive like last season.
- Doesn't have a concrete FA list right now but is aware of who is out there
- Won't get involved with Daisuke Matsuzaka. The posting for him will be really expensive. Mentioned his agent is Scott Boras.
- Doesn't know what the catching situation will be next year. Expects either Molina or Zaun to be back.
- Has talked about a 4 man starting rotation but doesn't think it's really feasible in this day and age. Will take a team a lot of guts to do it.

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John Northey - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#155337) #
If Lind goes to the OF (not a lock by any means) I'd look at the Jays grabbing Jack Cust to DH (in SanDiego right now).  He has yet to get much of a shot in the majors (just 141 AB's before this year, 2 this year so far) but played well when given 73 AB's by Baltimore in '03 (260/357/521) and he kills the minors (290/469/548 this year in AAA).  He is 27 and really does deserve a shot.  At the very least he'd help Syracuse.  Negatives are his lack of a position other than DH (much like Lind it seems) and he is a left handed bat, just like Lind and Cat. 

If the Jays want to go a bit cheaper on the offense and still get lots of bang I'd look seriously at this.  Lind/Rios/Johnson in the OF and Cust at DH.  Get another RH bat to mix in (or keep Wells in CF and shift Johnson into a semi-platoon situation with Lind & Cust) and you should have lots of offense still without paying $5 million or so to Cat.


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actionjackson - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#155340) #
I'm having trouble understanding why people are getting all bent out of shape about a player starting his career at DH. Anyone remember Fred McGriff? He later became an average 1B. What about John Olerud? He became an above average 1B. Or Carlos Delgado? With a lot of work, he's become an average 1B. I understand LF is a different position, but you could DH Lind and have him work on his fielding with Marty Pevey, occasionally spotting him in LF, until both parties are confident with his play there. He's far from a finished product in LF at the moment, but if anyone remembers Delgado's younger days, there's hope for anyone as far as I'm concerned. Ideally, he would start the season in LF in Syracuse and force his way onto the club, but if he starts as the DH next year in Toronto, it won't be the end of the world.
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Chuck - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#155341) #
I wonder if the appetite for the Jack Custs of the world hasn't dried up entirely throughout baseball. Calvin Pickering, Erubial Durazo, Jeremy Giambi... All have proven to be disappointments to organizations that believed to have acquired terrific hitters on the cheap (in all cases, I applauded what seemed like terrific moves, so I'm certainly predisposed to being tempted by Cust).

With the short benches -- because every team needs 7 or 8 relievers, dontchaknow -- if a team is going to carry a guy who can't play a position, he'd better hit like David Ortiz or Frank Thomas. I'm not sure that a team can afford to carry a platoon DH, or, even if they could, if they'd be willing to entertain the idea.
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Magpie - Wednesday, September 13 2006 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#155346) #
I've always liked Counsell, but... I dunno. Counsell did just turn 36 a few weeks ago. His offense in 2005 was a bit out of character, an sudden interruption of the utterly predictable decline of a player in his 30s. The decline has resumed this season. There's really no reason to expect Counsell to be a more productive hitter than the 2005 version of Russ Adams, for example. So if I were to wager on Adams or Counsell returning to that level, I'd rather bet on the guy who's ten years younger. Not that I'd want to actually count on Adams for anything. Once bitten, twice shy, and so on.

Defense is a different issue, and Counsell has certainly played better at short this year than I, for one, expected. But even so, one might want to be leery of 36 year old shortstops with shoulder problems, especially when the word labrum is being used...

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Mike Green - Thursday, September 14 2006 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#155410) #
You would think that it would be obvious to pull Burnett with a 10-0 lead after 8 innings, as he was, but the allure of a complete game shutout is often too much.  He had thrown 103 pitches, and with his history, that is enough. 

There is good reason to believe that he can give the club 190-200 above average innings in 2007 if used with discretion. 

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ryan_the_canuck - Thursday, September 14 2006 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#155413) #

Slight threadjacking, but ESPN's Page 2 has a ballot for 'Hometown Bums'...basically, unlike MLB's Hometown Heroes, the HB are the whiniest, most overpaid and useless crybabies in each team's history.  Now, I don't know about other teams, but the Toronto choices (Mondesi, Burnett, Jesse Jefferson, Clemens, Ainge) leave quite a bit to be desired...surely we can come up wih five better choices?  Here's my list...John Frascatore, Derek Bell, Joey Hamilton, Bill Caudill, Tim Johnson.

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actionjackson - Thursday, September 14 2006 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#155414) #
Tanyon "I'm calling my agent" Sturtze.
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Magpie - Friday, September 15 2006 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#155418) #
The mighty Braves were defeated!!

August 11, 1994.
Team Name                        G    W    L    T   PCT    GB    RS   RA
Montreal Expos                 114   74   40    0  .649     -   585  454
Atlanta Braves                 114   68   46    0  .596   6.0   542  448
New York Mets                  113   55   58    0  .487  18.5   506  526
Philadelphia Phillies          115   54   61    0  .470  20.5   521  497
Florida Marlins                115   51   64    0  .443  23.5   468  576

The Mighty Braves were... trailing. You think they couldn't come back from that?

August 11, 1993.
Team Name                        G    W    L    T   PCT    GB    RS   RA
San Francisco Giants           115   77   38    0  .670     -   598  438
Atlanta Braves                 115   68   47    0  .591   9.0   501  412
Houston Astros                 114   59   55    0  .518  17.5   508  460
Los Angeles Dodgers            113   57   56    0  .504  19.0   475  467
Cincinnati Reds                117   59   58    0  .504  19.0   543  519
San Diego Padres               115   45   70    0  .391  32.0   482  540
Colorado Rockies               114   40   74    0  .351  36.5   506  712

We'll never, never know.
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John Northey - Friday, September 15 2006 @ 06:48 AM EDT (#155419) #
 Hometown bums eh? 
He who must not be named should be on the list,
Joey Hamilton for sure
Mike Sirotka (cost us David Wells and gave the Jays 0 IP)
Al Leiter (left for less money)
Carlos Garcia ("replacement" for Alomar who hit 220/253/309)

I always enjoyed Caudill and felt he got a bad break here.  Cox didn't have much patience for closers back then (blew a couple early and that was it as far as he was concerned).  Luckily his falling from grace gave Henke his shot.

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Chuck - Friday, September 15 2006 @ 07:11 AM EDT (#155420) #
Mike Sirotka

Can't blame the guy for being hurt. Blame Ash for trading for a guy the whole world new was injured.
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Pepper Moffatt - Friday, September 15 2006 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#155423) #
 I know he only played 18 games, but how does Mark Lemongello not make the list?
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jjdynomite - Friday, September 15 2006 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#155429) #
In the NFL, Dallas plays in the NFC East and St. Louis plays in the NFC West.  Go figure.
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Mick Doherty - Friday, September 15 2006 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#155431) #

Well, the Rams did used to be based in Los Angeles, so there is historical reasoning.

Of course, the Dodgers aren't in the NL East because they played in Brooklyn or anything ...

 

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Seattle 4, Toronto 2 | 122 comments | Create New Account
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