Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Sometimes, stories write themselves. Today I was looking at the various men in baseball history named (first/middle name) Philip and (last/family name) Phillips and I ran across one Deacon Phillippe, a name I knew only in passing from reading about the Great Game's early years.

In scanning Phillippe's BaseballReference.com page, I noticed that he had been part of what I can only describe as The Biggest Trade in Baseball History. How did I not know about this trade before now? Consider ...


... on December 8, 1899, the Louisville Colonels traded Phillippe, along with Fred Clarke, Bert Cunningham, Mike Kelley, Tacks Latimer, Tommy Leach, Tom Messitt, Claude Ritchey, Rube Waddell, Jack Wadsworth, Honus Wagner, and Chief Zimmer to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Jack Chesbro, Paddy Fox, John O'Brien, Art Madison, and $25,000.

Wow.

Forget, just for a moment, the fact that $25,000 was a ridiculous amount of money for the era -- focus instead on the unlikelihood of a trade including four future Hall of Famers ever happening again, at any level ... Clarke, Waddell, Wagner and Chesbro all have plaques in Cooperstown.

Back to Phillippe, who is not so enshrined, for a moment ... he won 20 or more games, with a career high of 25, in six of his first seven seasons in the big leagues (of which only the first was with the Colonels, the rest with the Pirates), and was a combined 22-5 over his last two full seasons ...

You can make a decent case that Phillippe's career was as good as, or even better than HOFer Chesbro's, but the latter's 41-12 mark in 1904 earned him an engraved plaque despite a career mark of "just" 198-132 -- more wins than Phillippe but a lesser winning percentage ... Waddell is also in the Hall of Fame, though his career mark of 193-143 falls shy of Chesbro's in both win total and percentage -- and even further shy of Phillippe's .634 winning percentage, which is tied for 43rd best in MLB history, with Hall of Famers Joe McGinnity and Kid Nichols and Hall of Fame talent Doc Gooden, who had, uh, other issues ...

But this trade wasn't ALL about the pitching -- for instance, before the trade, Clarke was the Louisville manager ... After the trade, he was the Pittsburgh manager ... And after his 180-212 mark with LOU, who saw the PIT run -- 16 years, 1422 wins, a .595 win percentage, four pennants and the 1909 World Series title -- coming? He had just two losing seasons with the Pirates, not coincidentally his final two years at the nascent Steel City's helm ... Still, he apparently had Very Nearly Hall of Fame numbers as a player (.312, 2,672 hits, 503 steals) and his long success as a manager clinched his plaque in Cooperstown ... Call it the Joe Torre route, though the current Yankee boss isn't enshrined yet (he will be) and, unlike Torre, Clarke was a player/manager his entire career, quitting managing at the same time he quit playing, at the age of 42 ... He lived to the age of 80, so could conceivably have put up real Connie Mack-like numbers had he stayed in skippering ....

But again, it's not all about the Hall of Famers ...

For instance, Leach had 2,143 hits his own 19-year career that saw him play more than 1,000 games in the outfield and more than 1,000 in the infield, primarily at third base ... He also stole 361 bases and hit 172 career triples (leading the NL once and finishing 7th or better in the NL six more times), so apparently he had pretty good wheels ...

And Ritchey was another infielder, mostly a 2B, who spent 13 years in the big leagues, the last decade of which came after the trade ... His only .300 (on the nose) season came in 1899 with Louisville, but did hit .290+ each of his first two seasons with Pittsburgh and closed out his career with a .273 average on 1,618 careeer base hits ... And think for a moment -- a good argument can be made that Ritchey, whose #1 BBRef Most Comparable player is a Hall of Famer himself (admittedly the improbably enshrined Phil Rizzuto) was the seventh- or eighth-best player in the trade!

Back to the pitching -- Cunningham won 142 big league games, though just four after the trade and none while wearing a Pirates uniform ... Zimmer played in the big leagues for 19 years, mostly as a backup catcher, with 15 of those years coming pre-trade ... O'Brien, a 2B from New Brunswik, played 500+ MLB games, but none of them came after the trade ... Madison, like O'Brien was an infielder who played his entire big league career before the trade, in two cuppajoes with the two Pennsylvania-based ballclubs ...

If the old saw about "the team that gets the best player wins the trade" has any truth to it, then obviously Pittsburgh wins ... It's hard to remember that Hans Wagner even played for anyone other than the Pirates, but on his way to Cooperstown, he started out in Louisville. Wagner accumulated 2,967 of his 3,415 career hits for the Pirates after the deal ... Did you know that Wagner pitched in two ballgames in his career, allowing exactly zero earned runs in 8.1 innings pitched? Okay, he gave up seven hits and five unearned runs, but that 0.00 at least looks pretty ...

Okay, items like that suggest we could deconstruct details of a deal of this size for several thousand more words, so let's stop. Here are some questions for y'all ...
  • Did you know about this deal? (Yes, yes, Magpie, we know you did.)
  • Is it, in your opinion, the biggest deal in baseball history?
  • If not, what is the game's biggest deal? Present your argument using ... lots of ... ellipses ... as I have done ... above ...
  • Does Phillippe belong in the Hall of Fame? Why or why not?

The Biggest Trade in Baseball History? | 22 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Magpie - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 12:44 AM EDT (#170219) #
This is indeed a very weird trade. But it's really more of a merger than a trade.

Barney Dreyfus, who owned the Louisville Colonels, bought the Pittsburgh Pirates in early 1900 and brought all of the best players from Louisville to Pittsburgh. Louisville, and three other NL teams (Baltimore, Washington, and Cleveland) were contracted out of existence. Jack Chesbro was the only player going to Louisville in this deal who ever played another game in the majors - and he continued his career in Pittsburgh (he was "assigned" back to the Pirates before the 1900 season started.)

Magpie - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#170220) #
what is the game's biggest deal?

One excellent question. Hall of Famers don't get traded quite as often as the other guys, and in the first half of the twentieth century they were more likely to be cashed in for cash rather than talent. (Eddie Collins changed teams several times, but there was never another ballplayer involved in the transaction.)

There probably aren't that many trades that involve just two Hall of Famers - and if there are, chances are one of them is either 40 years old and playing out the string, or 21 years old and abusing minor leaguers.

Off the top of my head, I'll give you:

Rogers Hornsby for Frank Frisch and Jimmy Ring. Two of the best second basemen of all time, and an innings-eater.

Goose Goslin for Heinie Manush and Alvin Crowder. Goslin and Manush are both in the Hall, and Crowder was a very fine pitcher who helped take three teams to the World Series.
Mike Green - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#170234) #
In modern times, the Alomar/McGriff trade has got to rank right up there. One likely Hall of Famer (Alomar), one who should be (McGriff) and two very good players (Carter and Fernandez).  I can't think of a bigger trade in the last 50 years, but that might be hometown bias clouding my memory.
ayjackson - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#170237) #

September 9, 1941

NY Giants trade Jumbo Brown (295 lbs) to the St. Louis Cardinals for Tom Sunko (190 lbs).

That trade's coming in at 242.5 ppp (pounds per player).  Surely the biggest trade in history by any objective measure.

Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#170238) #
It doesn't look nearly as big now with 30 years of hindsight, but the shocking first-ever swap of $100,000 players, Bobby Bonds for Bobby Murcer -- and both were just  between their 28/29 seasons at the time of the trade! -- sure seemed like a swap of Hall of Famers at the time. That was partly New York hype, with Murcer wearing pinstripes and Bonds being "heir to Willie Mays" and all that. But seriously, in 1975, you could've made a credible argument for expecting both guys to end up in the Hall; only one will, and only to see his son's plaque. Tempis fugit!
Magpie - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#170241) #
I can't think of a bigger trade in the last 50 years, but that might be hometown bias clouding my memory.

Neither can I, in the amount of talent involved. I can think of arguably bigger trades involving Hall of Famers that profoundly shaped the next ten years to come - but those were trades in the same way that walking into a bank with a submachine gun is a trade. Things are exchanged, but it's not exactly an equitable arrangement.

A few of those:

The Lou Brock trade - Cubs trade Brock, Jack Spring and Paul Toth to St. Louis for Ernie Broglio, Doug Clemens, and Bobby Shantz on June 15 June 1964.

The Frank Robinson trade - Cincinnati trades F.Robby to Baltimore for Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun, and Dick Simpson, on December 9 1966.

The Joe Morgan trade - Houston trades Little Joe, Denis Menke, Cesar Geronimo, Jack Billingham, and Ed Armbrister to Cincinnati for Tommy Helms, Lee May, and Jimmy Stewart on November 29, 1971.

Yikes. That last one gave the 1972 Reds three starters and the guy who would lead the staff in starts and innings.

.
ayjackson - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#170243) #

It doesn't look nearly as big now with 30 years of hindsight, but the shocking first-ever swap of $100,000 players, Bobby Bonds for Bobby Murcer -- and both were just  between their 28/29 seasons at the time of the trade!

As an aside, I noticed just yesterday that Bobby Murcer was #3 on Vernon Wells' list of comparables through age 27.  It's a pretty nice list, but won't stay that way if his current year doesn't show some modest improvement.

Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#170247) #

Bobby Murcer was #3 on Vernon Wells' list of comparables through age 27.

And at #1 is old pal Shawn Green! So some time in the next year, Wells will be swapped to an NL club for ... for ...well, who's the current equivalent of Raul Mondesi?

ayjackson - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#170250) #
Adam Dunn?  Bill Hall?  Ryan Church?
Rob - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#170253) #
Clearly, Green-for-Mondesi will becomes Wells-for-Carlos Lee.

Wait, wrong Texas team.
Mike Green - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#170261) #
Mondesi's #1 comp was George Bell?  All right then, Jorge.  I know you're almost 48 but you've got the same initials as George Blanda, and I imagine that you're not under contract now...
dan gordon - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#170280) #

Here are a couple more big trades not yet mentioned:

In June of 1976, the Yankees traded Rudy May, Dave Pagan, Tippy Martinez, Scotty MacGregor and Rick Dempsey to the Orioles for Ken Holtzman, Grant Jackson, Elrod Hendricks, Jimmy Freeman and Doyle Alexander.

In November of 2003, the Giants traded Francisco Liriano, Joe Nathan and Boof Bonser to the White Sox for A.J. Pierzynski and cash.  The full magnitude of this trade will be realized with time - particularly if Liriano makes a full recovery.  One of the most lopsided trades in history.  Of course, the Giants have a long history of such largesse (George Foster for Frank Duffy and Vern Geishert, Orlando Cepeda for Ray Sadecki, basically giving away Felipe Alou, etc.) .

Seems to me there was a window of time when there were a lot of big trades back in the 50's, 60's, 70's.  The advent of free agency and huge long term contracts in the 80's and 90's really made it much more difficult to make trades, and you could improve your team by signing free agents, rather than trading away players.  Back in the early decades of the 20th century, star players tended to play their whole career with one team - the middle decades of the century seem to be the golden era for the big trade.

Magpie - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#170283) #
Back in the early decades of the 20th century, star players tended to play their whole career with one team

That is absolutely not true. One of the great myths of baseball history. Don't get me started!

Star players in the first part of the century weren't quite as likely to be traded as they were in mid-century. They were much more likely to be sold, for cash on the barrelhead.
dan gordon - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#170292) #

Well, if it is a myth, I would say it stems from such examples as Christy Mathewson playing 16 years for New York, Ed Walsh playing 13 years for Chicago, Walter Johnson playing 21 years for Washington, Red Faber playing 20 years for Chicago, Eddie Rommel playing 13 years for Philadelphia, Ted Lyons playing 20 years for Chicago, Carl Hubbell playing 16 years for New York, Lefty Gomez playing 13 years for New York, Tommy Bridges playing 17 years for Detroit, Bob Feller playing 18 years for Cleveland, Bill Terry playing 14 years for New York, Lou Gehrig playing 17 years for New York, Charlie Gehringer playing 19 years for Detroit, Bobby Doerr playing 15 years for Boston, Stan Hack playing 16 years for Chicago, Luke Appling playing 21 years for Chicago, Zack Wheat playing 18 years for Brooklyn, Harry Heilman playing 16 years for Detroit, Ted Williams playing 19 years for Boston, Ty Cobb playing 22 years for Detroit, Joe DiMaggio playing 13 years for New York and Mel Ott playing 22 years for New York.

All of these players started their careers in the 30's or earlier, and played all or virtually all of their careers with one team.  A few, like Cobb, played 1 or 2 partial seasons at the end of their careers elswhere.  You very, very seldom see a player stay this long with one team any more.

Yes, sometimes players were sold for cash back in the early decades of the 20th century, something that MLB frowns upon these days.

Magpie - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#170296) #
You very, very seldom see a player stay this long with one team any more.

Au contraire, mon capitaine! There are lots of those guys in recent years. You don't even have to be a star anymore. You can be Frank White or Jim Gantner or Ron Oester.

You also named several players who didn't spend their entire careers with one team.
Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#170297) #

You very, very seldom see a player stay this long with one team any more.

True, although it's more common than you might think. In fact, Mags and I collaborated-on-the-fly (translation: I hijacked his idea) to do a Hall-of-Names-type feature on this very topic, called Ten-Year Men.

 

AWeb - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#170300) #
Of course, currently, you have players like (to run down the OPS  and ERA leaderboards) : Barry Bonds (15 seasons in SF), Pujols (all 7 in St. Louis, not leaving anytime soon), Todd Helton (all 11 in Colorado), Manny (8 in Cleveland, 7 in Boston), Frank Thomas (16 in Chicago), etc...

Older players did move around as well, such as: Jimmie Foxx, Hornsby, Mize, Hack Wilson, etc.

The moral isn't that older players tended to stay on one team more often, it's that when a team has an all-time great on its roster, they generally find try to find a way to hold onto them. Or that's how I see it, anyway.

dan gordon - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#170315) #

'You also named several players who didn't spend their entire careers with one team.'

Not true.  As I stated in my post, all of those players players played all, or virtually all of their careers with one team - a few, like Cobb, played a partial season or two with another team at the end of their career.

'There are lots of those guys in recent years.'

Not really.  Have a look at the top players from the last 10-15 years or so - The stars being what my point was about in the first place.  Bonds, M Ramirez, Ortiz, Thome, F Thomas, Delgado, R Johnson, P Martinez, Carpenter, ARod, Sosa, Piazza, Clemens, Glavine, etc all have played with 2 or more teams.

Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#170318) #

Well, to be fair and accurate, it's worth mentioning that the majority of the players you name there changed teams precisely because of the advent of free agency. Not all changed teams as free agents, though some did -- Martinez, Glavine, hmm, both in New York now -- while others changed uniforms in trade because of impending free agency or because of budget issues caused or exacerbated by free agency.

The fact that many players didn't change teams in the first 2/3 of the 20th century is all about indentured servitude, not a change of attitude among the club owners or anything.

dan gordon - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#170320) #

Yes, absolutely, it is all about indentured servitude.  I couldn't agree more.  Players were property until the Curt Flood trade got the ball rolling.  The increased player movement in recent times is due to the increased freedom the players have. 

John Northey - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#170324) #
Are there guys spending their whole careers with one team anymore? Lets do a simple game check.

Top 10 in games played who are active...
Barry Bonds - 2 teams
Craig Biggio - 1 team
Steve Finley - lots of teams
Omar Vizquel - 3 teams
Julio Franco - Lots of teams
Luis Gonzalez - lots of teams
Sammy Sosa - 4 teams, one for 13 years
Ken Griffey Jr - 2 teams
Garry Scheffield -lots of teams
Frank Thomas - 3 teams, one for all but 2 seasons

Just one of the top 10 has spent his whole career with one team. What about top 10 all-time?

Pete Rose - 3 teams
Carl Yastrzemski - 1 team
Hank Aaron - 2 teams, 1 for all but last 2 seasons
Rickey Henderson - lots of teams
Ty Cobb - 2 teams, 1 for all but last 2 seasons
Eddie Murray - a few teams
Stan Musial - 1 team
Cal Ripken - 1 team
Willie Mays - 2 teams, 1 for all but last 2 seasons
Dave Winfield - lots of teams

So 3 guys of the top 10 all-time were with just one team. Yastrzemski, Musial, Ripken. None were active pre-1941, two spent time in the free agent era. Near guys Cobb, Mays, and Aaron were long ago without free agency available.

What does it mean? Basically that to get a guy to stay in one place his whole career is darn hard. Teams release guys all the time when the guy still has some in the tank, even if they are HOF locks. Switching teams isn't so much loyalty as luck imo.
Magpie - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#170326) #
virtually all of their careers with one team

Fair enough - it's what you actually said, after all. I was still thinking of your first post which was a little more absolute -  "star players tended to play their whole career with one team."

Of course, if we're going to lower the bar enough to allow the like of Ty Cobb and Lefty Gomez to pass through... we've got to  give... oh, Dwight Evans and Dave Stieb a pass as well.

Let's settle this like men! Hang on, let's not do that. Instead, let's see if I can make an All-Star team of players since the advent of free agency who spent their entire careers with the same team that will kick the butt of a team with the same restriction from before free agency.

Catcher - Well, I get Johnny Bench, which is a good start. Of course you've got Roy Campanella and Bill Dickey (but not Yogi!)

First Base - No one beats Gehrig. I do have Jeff Bagell...

Second Base - You've got Jackie Robinson (barely) and Bill Mazeroski.. Let's see - I guess I counter with Lou Whitaker.

Third Base - Mike Schmidt and George Brett. Ahem.  I feel so good about tthem that I'll let you have Brooks Robinson, whose career extends into the FA era.

Shortstop - Our gang has Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Davey Concepcion.

I really ought  to stop before I get to the outfield (the specter of Musial, Williams, Mantle, Kaline, Clemente looming before me!) - what can I possibly offer? Tony Gwynn? Kirby Puckett? Robin Yount? Uh... Tim Salmon and Bernie Williams? Andruw still qualifies, but probably not for much longer. On the other hand - I forgot all about Chipper!

There have never been as many pitchers who have this type of career - off the top of my head, Walter Johnson is the only 300 game winner who never played for another team.  (The thought of Christy Mathewson pitching for the Reds does shake one's sense in the Nature of Things, I admit.) Who else would qualify? Jim Palmer, whose career overlaps... Bob Feller, Ted Lyons, Bob Gibson, Carl Hubbell, and Whitey Ford from the Days of Yore...John Somltz , Ron Guidry, Trevor Hoffmann and Mariano Rivera  from the FA era.

But your central point I think is bang-on. There is a shortage of real baseball trades since FA - it seems like half the trades made these days are dumps at the deadline, or teams bailing on a FA the year before he walks. Kenny Williams is still making old-time baseball trades (sometimes for good, sometimes for ill.) Who else?
The Biggest Trade in Baseball History? | 22 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.