According to Dan Shulman, Cavan Biggio is going to the AFL to play outfield.

That is very interesting Gerry, thank-you for that tidbit. It is my opinion that Gurriel would make a better outfielder than Biggio, but at least this is an interesting offseason storyline.

The last time I remember something like this was when they tried Dwight Smith Jr as a second basemen out in the AFL before they acquired Devon Travis.

Gurriel is a more talented infielder than Biggio. He can play short. He's young, he's going to make mistakes, but he will be exciting and he has talent, There is no one on the team, including Travis and even Diaz, that would push Gurriel to the outfield.

This really belongs in the minor league thread but Nate Pearson will continue to throw 25 pitches of a mound for a couple of weeks. The Jays hope he pitches for Lansing in the cross town showdown on September 4th. If all goes well with the rehab he could also go to the AFL to get some innings.

Gurriel as a hitter has the third highest xwOBA of any second baseman. I didn't have a positive outlook on him heading into he season, but he has unquestionably produced at the plate. I think he has earned his place in the line-up, but he hasn't earned a defensive home yet.

He does have better tools in the infield than Biggio, but both project as slightly worse than average infielders at this point. If you want to try one out on the grass I would try the guy with much better speed and a stronger arm.

I don't think Travis is on the team next year and Diaz is a great back-up infielder.

If the Jays only played vs the Orioles, they'd be neck and neck with Boston.

Gurriel hasn't shown he can be an adequate defender at 2nd or SS, but he hasn't shown he can't be either. He's only played about 550 innings at 2nd and 730 at SS since he's been stateside. And that's with 3 teams last year and 3 teams this year.

Maybe getting Grichuk in the first place was not a good transaction. His slot, coupled with a successful trade of Granderson to another team, could have been taken by the CF/RF platoon of Pillar, Smith and Pompey. As in previous post, PAs of the 5th OF is taken up by Martin, Gurriel Jr. and Solarte.
At this moment, can Granderson be traded for some assets in return? Just like Northey posted, his leave opens a slot for Smith/Pompey and some first base PAs for Hernandez against LHSP.

"I'd expect Travis traded (Gurriel at 2B), Solarte traded/released opening up a slot for someone. If Tulo is healthy then things get very messy."

(You forgot about Drury who is certainly going to get a look). Would be shocked if there's a market for Travis. He's a negative WAR player this year and has no positional flexibility. He's a backup 2Bman who can only play 2B. Not a lot of value in that. The Jays have a whole bunch of players they might need to move on from. I don't see much reason to keep Tulo, Solarte, Morales, Martin, and failing a dramatic turnaround in the last month, Travis. The issue is that none of these guys have any trade value nor will they likely ever have any. I see Jansen, Smoak, Gurriel, Diaz, Drury, Hernandez, Grichuk, Pillar, McKinney, Smith, and Pompey as guys who should get playing time to see what they can do/deserve it based on performance. That's an entire lineup and doesn't include Vlad, Biggio, and Bichette who should all be up next year and obviously need to play every day. I'd prefer the Jays just eat a bunch of salaries next year to make sure players who might be something, get playing time.

I agree wth you on Travis having little if any trade value for the reasons you identify, but I think that may make it more likely he remains. The only one of those salaries that I see them possibly eating is Tulowitzki. And I anticipate that Biggio and Bichette will play at Buffalo next year, not to skip it.

Damn you Kendry Morales - you just cost the jays draft positioning again - Please release this guy!

"I agree wth you on Travis having little if any trade value for the reasons you identify, but I think that may make it more likely he remains. The only one of those salaries that I see them possibly eating is Tulowitzki. And I anticipate that Biggio and Bichette will play at Buffalo next year, not to skip it."

At what point to the Jays give up on Travis though? If this is who he is, he's not really worth a roster spot. He has a WRC+ of 82 over his last 500 PAs with below average defense. I'm all for giving him the rest of the season with semi-regular playing time to see if there's more there, but at some point, you have to accept that this who he is and move on.

I also don't see the Jays buying guys out. I see very little chance Solarte is back. He just isn't needed. Maybe the Jays can get someone to take his salary for nothing. Martin, is easier to justify because of his versatility and I'm sure catchers will get hurt to free up playing time. They have too many position players though. I can see traded of Smoak and Pillar who do have a little value to open some playing time up because otherwise, the team is wasting a rebuilding year giving tons of ABs to people who won't be on the team in a year or two.

Also think Bichette and Biggio will start in AAA but if they hit, they will be up mid-year I think. That's not to say you have to create room for people who might be up in a few months, just that things are already extremely crowded as is.

Justin Smoak cleared waivers.

Is it worth trying Travis in the Of? I think the comments here are probably correct, but for some reason I really like him. I guess his arm strength isn't great and he gets injured a lot, so the Of may not help him or the team. That said, what else are you doing in Sept? Let gurriel play second and Travis play LF.

Devon Travis is the new Aaron Hill.

We have a lot of depth on the 40 man roster in case of injuries. Depth is valued by this FO.


The JD situation will be sorted out by ST next year. Speculation is fun. Nothing else IMO.


The Martin and Tulo situation will work itself out next year. Martin can play multiple IF positions. Bichette is doing well in AA, but not dominating IMO. He probably spends all of 2019 in AAA unless he earns a promotion.


Options is a consideration for many players. Pompey has burned all 3. Alford, Smith Jr, Urena and possibly Gurriel have burned 2. I don't know about Guerrieri.


Being able to play multiple positions is also a factor in making the team. As mentioned.

For what it is worth, statcast suggests Travis should be more of a league average hitter than the awful hitter he has been. However even at his best he still doesn't have the upside of Gurriel or Biggio.

Its starting to look like the Jays might carry three catchers next season with Martin playing more of a utility role meaning even less room to carry Travis. The only possible way that I think Travis makes the roster is if they flip Drury for an outfielder with upside.

The biggest problem with Travis, aside from his poor numbers, is his lack of versatility. I believe the Tigers were trying him in the OF before he was traded to Toronto, but with three straight seasons of assorted season-ending injuries he might be limited to 2B and he doesn't hit enough anymore to even be above average in that spot. Since being called up from the minors this season he has a 94 wRC+ so while not terrible it's not starting quality either. The Jays are now at a point where they have options as good or better than him, plus talent filtering up through the minors, so they will have to make a decision on him soon.

What helped the Yankees during their transitional years (2013-16) was being able to acquire younger/controllable players and having some of them pan out (Didi, Hicks, etc). Then by the time they called up their prospects there was existing talent that they could consider core players and it lead to a much faster rise.

That is why I can see the logic behind acquiring Grichuk, Diaz, Hernandez, Drury, etc, types if they see some untapped upside. If even one of them turns into a player that could help during the Vlad years then it's a win. That's why they need to use 2019 productively. Find out which of those types can contribute in 2020-beyond.

Didn't know Adam Jones was hosted by 9 yr old Danny Jansen's parents when Jones played in the MWL.

Yeah, that was news to me as well. Very cool story.

Producing a decent pen is a big challenge for next year IMO. K Giles, D Barnes, R Tepera, J Biagini and J Garcia is about all that I feel comfortable with at the moment.

Really doubt Garcia will be back. $8 million ($10 million option/$2 million buyout) would be a sizeable overpay for what he is now.

So Garcia can get $16mil over 2 years or $10 mil for 1 year. So you save $6 mil but you lose Garcia. If that is correct it is not cut and dried.IMO.

No bpoz. He gets the 2 million next year whether we keep him or not. If he stays he gets 10 million, which is an extra 8 million. He's not worth 8 million.

I think Garcia will be lucky if he makes it through the end of the season on the roster, let along next year.

I agree with SK that the team is likely best off making some trades for controllable players who might have some flaws and try to correct them in 2019. Joey Gallo is a guy that I would legitimately try and make a run at for example.

There is zero chance the Jays keep Garcia on that contract.

If they wanted to keep him they would buy him out and then resign him for something like $2 or 3M, saving $5M.

Thank you hypobole. So I was wrong. The contract is not 8+8 but 8+10 or 8+2 if he is bought out. So I now agree that giving him the 2 mil and saying good bye is the best.

If we need not keep Garcia and replacements are going to be more economical in terms of money, can he be traded in package for assets in return?Scenario 1) Garcia + prospects (who especially those have slim chance of successful MLB career) for 1.1) a higher prospect or 1.2) a veteran blocked in advancement for whatever reason. I am thinking of Edwin Encarnacion. That trade is not about equating Garcia as Scott Rolen; However, looking at the Rolen for EE, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart trade, only EE has been going very well. Stewart is helping out in Buffalo 2018. Also Garcia is not EE: EE at age 31 is second time Jays' Allstar. Looking at the opposite direction of trade, trading a Reds' version of lesser EE -- aka Garcia -- plus prospect(s) or pedestrian MLBers for a Rolen-in-the-making player make senses. Buy a lottery ticket by trade is cheaper than doing so in more than a few million in contract.
Scenario 2) package Garcia with Granderson but would that trade go thru waivers?

Two nothing pieces packaged together doesn’t get you a quality piece. This idea is something fans love, but doesn’t happen in real baseball. If you want to get a good prospect you have to give up something of value,

Scenario 2) package Garcia with Granderson but would that trade go thru waivers?
At this point, Garcia has negative value - you would have to PAY teams to take him off your hands. You would get a BETTER return for just Granderson (i.e. maybe a lottery ticket). Put them together, and you have to throw in a lottery ticket to get one back..

Garcia is a sunk cost. Buy him out at the end of the year and be done with it. ZERO teams want to trade for him under any scenario. He might sign next year for MLB minimum or an invite to minor league camp or something, but that's it. 
Think of Garcia as a 1992 Ford Taurus with 475,000 km on it that starts every 4th try that you STILL owe $7500 on, that you're trying to sell for $2500. No one in their right mind would give you $2500 for it. Never mind ALSO taking on $7500 of debt.

Given what Garcia's done out of the bullpen and against lefties overall this year, I could see him garnering a PTBNL/Cash Considerations if the Jays cover the buyout. It's not much more than nothing, but a little bit. NEXT year is a sunk cost, though, for sure.

I agree that you are not going to get anything of value for Granderson, Garcia and Clippard.

But there are some teams that have Int'l cap room to spare. Like Atlanta who is penalized. There is a lot of value there.

I believe that someone said that it is impossible to overspend your cap room. On my own I figured that meant if you had 400K left and you signed someone for 410K the 10K over would make the signing null and void. Unless you cheated somehow.

Josh Donaldson will be healthy again, but probably not in time to garner anything worthwhile on the Trade Market. The Jays shouldn’t fret about offering him a Qualifying Offer. If he accepts, he hits behind Vlady.

With Aaron Sanchez on the 60-Day D.L. can he get healthy enough to pitch at all this year, possibly September? He can be so very good as a Starter, but isn’t he more likely to be in the Bullpen after missing almost two full years?

Sanchez pitched 4 innings for NH last night. Maybe he has one more rehab start or maybe he makes his next start in the bigs. But he's not going to the pen.

Interestingly, at the moment Morales and EE each have an identical 108 wRC+ and 0.4 fWAR on the season.

There's no reason that Garcia won't finish the year in the bullpen. There's no benefit to cutting him.

Aledmys Diaz' performance this year has been solid. Taking into account his HR tonight, he's probably playing at about a 2 WAR pace for the season. Given that some commentators view both Bichette and Smith as second basemen in the majors, I could see an infield of Vlad 3B / Diaz SS / Bichette (or Travis) 2B / Smoak 1B in the second half of 2019.

I think it's likely that Diaz is now a better overall shortstop (offense plus defense) than Tulo.

Clippard lost his value when his proclivity to HRs turned out to be the norm rather than an outlier. No one will want him or give anything for him. The Jays only save $1.5 Million on next year’s salary. Garcia has no trade value unless the remainder of the year ($1.33-ish Million) and $2.0 Million buyout is retained by the Jays. Even then nothing much comes back. The Jays will save $10.0 Million on next year’s salary. Granderson loss most of his trade value as the season progress. It’s unlikely he has any relative trade value, nor will he bring anything of value back. The Jays will save $5.0 Million on next year’s salary.

The Jays can move them this month or not at all. Either the Jays have $16.5 Million to spend next year or $16.5 Million less to spend next year. It’s very simple. Next year, who hits behind Guerrero determines whether the Jays are in the Playoff.

K Giles, D Barnes, R Tepera, J Biagini and J Garcia

I don't feel comfortable with a single one of those guys. Erratic and/or mediocre, every one of them.

I'd like the Jays off-season to consist of finding two decent starters and two Oh/Axford/Clippard types for the 'pen. The competiton amongst position players in the off-season should be enough.

The Jays aren't going to get anything for guys like Granderson, Clippard, etc. Look at the 2 trades today. Daniel Murphy, a great hitter who OPS'd .985 in 2016 and .928 in 2017, and plays 2B/3B, returned very little for Washington. Matt Adams, who is OPS'ing .842 this year, and has 18 HR's in only 249 AB's, was let go on waivers.

Ten years ago today, the Jays obtained Jose Bautista for a player to be named later. That worked out better than any of us imagined, and here's how it all happened.

First time I've seen Justin Shafer pitch. I thought he looked pretty good, fastball was hitting 94 regularly and seemed to have some movement to it. The slider looked decent. He had a great year in both AA and AAA, and he looks like somebody who has a good shot at a big league job next year.

Petricka threw some wicked fastballs tonight, hitting the high 90's, with great left to right drift on the pitch. The one he struck Davis out with was filthy.

After tonight's 3 for 4 game, Kendrys Morales now has a slash line of .303/.383/.530/.913 since May 20th, about half a season.

"The Jays aren't going to get anything for guys like Granderson, Clippard, etc. Look at the 2 trades today. Daniel Murphy, a great hitter who OPS'd .985 in 2016 and .928 in 2017, and plays 2B/3B, returned very little for Washington. Matt Adams, who is OPS'ing .842 this year, and has 18 HR's in only 249 AB's, was let go on waivers."

This also goes to people who were upset about the return for Pearce. Adams got zip in return. It really is a buyers' market out there now. I hope they can shed Granderson to let the young OFers play every day and get anything for Donaldson even if they have to eat his entire contract to do so.

I'm not concerned about the bullpen. This is where the failed starters will end up.

Ideally, they'll deal with the excess position players by keeping the DH open.
They also should aim towards at least 3 left bats. Currently that's Smoak, Morales and Granderson.
Coming up they have Urena (just a backup right now), McKinney, Pompey, Smith Jr (only see one of those with the team).
Eventually Tellez and Biggio.

Matt Adams being let go to save 700K sets low expectation for further trades.

Weird one - letting a decent hitter (Matt Adams) go for nothing.  257/332/510 overall, but 0 for his last 21, 2 for 33 in August 061/139/182.  Wonder if he is hurt or something.  His July was fine at 317/386/524.

At this point just moving Granderson to open playing time for others is the right move, even if it's for cash considerations or a nothing relief prospect.

Donaldson is the only player who might yield something in return if he's healthy, and even that will be minimal. It was just a bad market for sellers this year, especially the rental market.

I'd be happy with trading Granderson or any other impending free agent (outside of Donaldson) for international cap room.  Then the Jays going out and signing someone with that room.

I am hoping that in some ways the Jays capitalize on what seems to be a buyers market in the offseason. It seems some teams are desperate to tear it all down, and there might be some controllable guys available for some lottery tickets.

Kevin Gausman for example I thought was a really good get by Atlanta. Although there is only two more controllable years, you could work an extension out and he would help contribute to the Vlad show from day 1.

Double post, but I expect the Jays put at least a 6 spot on David Hess. It's nice to see McKinney get another start today after his first home run yesterday.

Pannone is no hitting the Orioles through five. Pitch count is getting up there though. The Jays just picked up their first hit. There is not much for the camp kids to get excited about.

Too bad Pannone is on a limited pitch count most likely. He's having a rather nice first major league start.

Schedule out for next year. Some surprises. If I'm correct, there is only one home weekend series with the Yanks, in August, and none with the Red Sox. Interleeague sees the Giants, Padres and D'backs.

I expect the Jays put at least a 6 spot on David Hess

They'll need to step it up then. He has a 1-hit shutout through 6 with 7 strikeouts.

I am dreading when Gibby pulls him with a non-no going. He deserves better than a no-decision.

Maybe "spot" means K's in which case it's spot on.

Okay... he has my permission to pull him. :)

That was impressive. Although this Baltimore outfit is really, really bad.

Impressive composure by Pannone to get out of that jam.

Teoscar should be in AAA.

I guess my predictions of a 6 spot on Hess was a little off. It's nice to see Pannome really pitch today, show off some impressive fielding and of course the much talked about pick-off move.

I started going through more stat cast data today and there are some very encouraging signs for the Jays heading into 2019.

xwOBA

1. Red Sox 0.361
2. Cleveland 0.351
3. A's 0.347
4. Jays 0.345
5. Yankees 0.343

Hard Hit%

1. Jays 41.1%
2. Red Sox 40.4%
3. A's 38.8%
4. Yankees 38.6%
5. Brewers 38.0%

Barrel%

1. Boston 9.0%
2. Yankees 8.8%
3. Jays 8.4%
4. A's 8.3%
5. Dodgers 8.1%

There is a pretty similar story for average exit velocity, launch angle, xBA, xSLG where the Jays rank in the top 5 or 6 similar to other highly rated front offices such as the Yanks, Red Sox and A's. The Jays really seem to be focusing on the metrics that other smart, well run teams are focusing on. This is an offence that can be elite with a bit of luck, a bit of health and the promotion of a certain favourite young son in AAA.

I know it's the Orioles but Pannone just stranded runners at 2nd and 3rd with no outs via two soft ground balls and a pop up. That takes guts in your first start.

As bad as Martin is at third base, I have a feeling that he's a step up on Guerrero Jr.

Even though the Baltimore team is very bad, I am getting nervous. I just like to win.

"After tonight's 3 for 4 game, Kendrys Morales now has a slash line of .303/.383/.530/.913 since May 20th, about half a season."

His numbers for the season are better than EE's.

Very impressive start. Orioles are a AAAA team right now but it is still great. It's been a dark season so any bits of light are welcome. Hernandez needs to figure out how to play defense. His bat plays in OF but he is just terrible out there. Like Hanley Ramirez bad.

Is Martin bad at 3rd base?

Is Martin bad at 3rd base?

He's not good. I mean he's not stick out like a sore thumb bad, but he doesn't have a lot of range (not surprising at his age) and his arm isn't bad, but you wouldn't say he's good. I would be.particularly concerned about Guerrero on turf. The ball gets to you fast, and I don't know if he's played on turf yet.

I erred in my earlier post. Next year the Jays have two weekend series vs. the Yanks, one in August and one in September. There are no weekend series vs. the Red Sox, which will hurt. Opening day is the 28th of March home to Detroit.

Nice game.
SRF's demotion means that he has to stay in the Minors for 10 days. That is too bad.

Pannone gets another start for sure. I presume.

Sanchez back on Sat vs Phillies.

I've been thinking Martin's looked pretty good at 3B. Checking the defensive metrics on B-Ref, he's +13 in defensive runs saved per 1,200 innings, but -5 in Total Zone runs saved per 1,200 innings. His range factor per 9 innings is 2.53 compared to a league average of 2.67. Bit of a mixed bag, I guess, plus, it's a very small sample size, only 103 innings before today. Certainly better than Solarte, and way better than Drury's career numbers of -14, -19, 2.26. I certainly wouldn't have expected a 35 year old catcher to be this good at 3B.

DRS and UZR at FG both have Martin as a tiny plus defensively at 3rd.

Scott Sanders must hate the O's this year.

That was a tremendous debut for Pannone. I have a hard time getting on board with any PED suspension guys, and I know it's just the LOLrioles, but damn - if he keeps pitching like that, the Jays might have something...

I would also like to jump on the "Martin is not any good when he convinces the manager to let him play anywhere other than C" bandwagon. He falls just short of awful at 3B; he's not an asset at all with the bat he has left.

It'd be great if the team would hire a competent manager next year who will put a stop to letting Martin dictate the lineup like he was the son of the guy who bought the Little League team jerseys and takes the kids out for pizza after every game.

So, Martin who by all accounts has been fine at 3rd base and is a league average hitter has no value being versatile? I don't understand the hatorade?

Morales is now up to 115 wRC+ / 0.6 fWAR ($5m value) on the season. That is pretty good, especially considering he posted a wRC+ of 34 and 82 in the first two months of the season, respectively.

Maybe they should put Morales at 3rd.

Back to playing a decent team on Friday. I hope Estrada destroys them. Phillies.

Parker - I saw the equivalent of that in the 80's with Cecil Fielder being played at 3B (and 2B).  It was ugly.

Looks like they are in Oakland during the Easter weekend. They do host Boston on Victoria Day.
The Royals are in town for Canada day.
They are in Tampa during the Civic Holiday and in Atlanta during Labour Day.

Well, at least they're not off during any Canadian holiday.

Thus far through 7 games I think Billy McKinney is a definite upgrade over Dwight Smith Jr., as he will hit for much more power. In only a small sample size and McKinney has clearly been a little lucky thus far, but his xBA of 0.223 and xSLG of .445 is pretty much aligned with his AAA numbers. He will likely be a capable low average, high power 4th outfielder and occasional starter.

The biggest part of McKinney's game that I am unsure about is his defence which I am curious about what others think there.

The anti-Martin hate is confusing to me.

He is the best 3B on the active roster. He is not the best catcher in the active roster (any more). He is a great team player and a valuable asset.

Do I wish he hit better? Well, of course I do. But complaining about his actually decent defense at 3rd makes no sense.

Morales is now up to 115 wRC+ / 0.6 fWAR ($5m value) on the season.

Encarnacion is trailing slightly at 112. Of course, this comparison erroneously suggests that the team's option was one player or the other. A third option was neither. But maybe now's not the time for that old debate with Morales in the throes of a decent Babe Ruth impersonation.

Encarnacion now ranks 77th all time in HR. That high ranking surprised me. Another 53 HR in his career and he'll work his way into the top 50. He and Bautista (97th all time) have both had very unusual careers, performing at much higher levels in their 30s than their 20s.

A third option was neither.

Been thinking that for quite some time.

Been thinking that for quite some time.

Yes, I'm sure many of us did right from the start.

It's just that the comparisons between Encarnacion (4/80) and Morales (3/33) implicitly suggest a false dichotomy, that it had to be one or the other. And if Morales is outperforming Encarnacion, a sign that the team made the right "choice".

Pearce (158 wRC+, 1.4 WAR) is also outperforming Edwin, if that means anything. Ultimately you could argue the merits of who the FO signed to replace Encarnacion, but clearly based on the price it would have taken (whether 4/80 or 3/60 had they waited) and where the team is, simply moving on from Edwin and getting a comp pick (Pearson) turned out to be a smart move. Morales turning his season around and Pearce being able to be flipped for prospect depth makes it a bit better.

Yes, I'm sure many of us did right from the start.

Maybe many thought it, but very few actually articulated it.

You were probably one of the few.

Encarnacion: 1115pa, 124wrc+, 3.1fwar
Morales: 993pa, 104wrc+, 0.1fwar

They've reduced us to cheering for $33m replacement players.

You new here?

I love your humor Chuck. You are trying to be funny right? Or are you trying to be smart? I like funny. Understand it better.

Kendrys not only has a 115 wRC+ and 0.8 WAR but also a great stat cast profile (exit velocity, XBA, XSLG, XWOBA, hard hit %) and the best BB% of his career. He's not smoke and mirrors, if anything his numbers should be better based on his profile. For a DH-only player, he's still overpaid, but may no longer be sunk cost, which is a big step up.

I liked the Pearce signing a lot, but I don't know if it's fair to compare him straight-up to Encarnacion and Morales.
Pearce gets hurt A LOT - I imagine he wouldn't have been such a bargain if he had a better track record of durability.

The anti-Martin hate is confusing to me.

The word 'hate' seems to be causing you trouble too. It doesn't include criticizing the defence of a 34 year old catcher trying to play third. Calling that 'hatred' is internet drama.

According to the only catcher defense metric that actually tries to measure it accurately, Russ is a top 5 defensive catcher AGAIN this year.

with again a league average bat.

this is a good and valuable player getting ripped on by the same people who are going gaga over a DH finally getting his bat back to league average.

John, you looked at 2017. Here's 2018.

Morales 2018 OPS+ 119 $33 million total salary 2017-2019
Encarnacion 2018 OPS+ 109 $80 million total salary rejected 2017 to 2020

Of course, neither Encarnacion nor Morales matter in the slightest to the team's finish in 2017 or 2018, but Morales and Nate Pearson, our top pitching prospect vs Encarnacion is not close in my estimation. EE walking away from the Blue Jays $80 million, was the second best thing that happened that offseason after the Smoak signing, which as I recall was also the subject of daily multiple negative posts, along with complaints about Fowler. The next good thing that happened was the Joe Smith signing, which ended up as Samad Taylor and Thomas Pannone. And Pearce, who although hurt for Toronto netted us an infield prospect who may be better than any drafted in the 2005-2015 period.

All in all, not a bad offseason at all from my point of view. And Ross Atkins gave an excellent overview of that scenario in the STH meeting last winter.

this is a good and valuable player getting ripped on by the same people who are going gaga over a DH finally getting his bat back to league average.

Such "good-natured" elegance! It must be taxing on you, riding the same hobby horse year after year in the same rut, post after post, and maintaining such a posture of imaginary grievance.

And, funny that 'league average' thing. It seems quite elastic, stretching down to 93 for Russell Martin and up to 119, for Kendrys Morales a difference of 26 on a scale based upon 100. It reminds me of Humpty Dumpty in Lewis Carroll's "Alice in Wonderland". "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

But when? Are you trying to rebuild or extend a closing. window. Different strategies now exist.

I interpreted it as league average relative to position. It wasn't much of a leap.

Ugly,

What's your take on tulo? Where is he at end of next season?

Martin is not a league average bat.

Back in April, Martin described Solarte as Munenori Kawazaki with more pop.
That's pretty close to what Martin himself as become.
He's walking a lot, but those walks don't help his slugging and he's only got 7 doubles on the year.

A good defensive catcher who doesn't hit much is only as great as his rotation.
Defense is good, but not when it cost 20M.
Also, Martin hasn't been great at retiring base stealers for a while now.

since Morales joined the jays

DH Morales 104wrc+
C Martin 98wrc+, top 5 catcher defense by BP, the most valuable defensive position by far

and, hilariously, the same people who think Martin is untradeable trash are actually PRAISING the Morales signing, that's how far gone they are in their cult worship.

The word 'hate' seems to be causing you trouble too. It doesn't include criticizing the defence of a 34 year old catcher trying to play third. Calling that 'hatred' is internet drama.

No.  There is a significant portion of the troll-types on the box who do seem to hate Martin, or at least his contract.

CBDC, you are the last person on this site who should be scolding people for 'hate' posts. 

It's been better for a while now on the box.  insulting posts like 'the word .... seems to be causing you trouble' are just trolling.  you are clearly a bright poster with some great insight on contracts and corporate behaviour, and you clearly follow the team closely.  please work on the condescension. 

Players are famous for playing hurt, but Catchers lead the list. I will always like the 5 year $80.0 Million contract paying him $16.0 Million per Season Russell Martin signed. I suspect A.A.’s hands were tied in 2013 with no raises permitted. I also believe that’s when the decision to replace both he and Paul Beeston was made. To do everything possible, he created inventive contracts.

After 20+ years in the wilderness, the 2015 and 2016 Postseasons were priceless. Each person must judge what those years were worth to them, then remember who was on the Roster then. If it makes you feel good to denigrate those players now, that says more about you than it does about them.

Russel Martin 2018:

wOBA: 0.313
xwOBA: 0.327
MLB Avg: 0.317

He is technically just slightly below league average with indications he should be hitting a little better than league average.

Martin is declining. There's no reason to think 2019 will be better than 17/18.
He's compensating by walking more. That's not unusual.
He was an all-star when he could hit 30+ doubles, he could finish with less than 10.
He's still a better hitter than Maile. That's faint praise.

Solarte, after a solid start, turned into a below average bat with below average defense.
Diaz, on the other end, has been an average bat with average defense.

Still not sold on Drury.

I find it humorous that all sports sites have their beauties and their beasts. On this site, if there is any criticism of Martin or Tulo, the boards light up. If there is any positive comments about Morales the boards light up.

A little realism guys. Tulo and Martin made a big difference in the glory years, and aren’t playing that well right now if playing at all. Morales contract was an overpay but he has been playing very well since May.

Is all that really difficult to swallow?

Martin's "decline":

2016: 100wrc+, 2.3fwar650, 2.2bwar650, 4.1bpwarp650
2017: 100wrc+, 3.2fwar650, 2.7bwar650, 2.6bpwarp650
2018: 95wrc+, 1.8fwar650, 3.2bwar650, 3.5bpwarp650

averaging out all 3 war650 measures:

2.9war650
2.8war650
2.8war650

Yes but what did they say about Martin's WAR at the season ticket holder's meeting?

The owners reaped the profits for 2015 and 2016. All kinds of revenues. 2017 may have benefited from 2015/16. Terrible financial results for 2018.

"he pops in those new-fangled metrics without anyone noticing."

Good to have you back, Mike.

Mike, Shapiro hired Nikki Huffman and promoted her to Head Trainer when Poulis left for Atlanta.

That's true.  Wickenheiser is in a development role, I understand, and that builds on her experience in the game.  She hopefully will rise into leadership, and that (and similar trajectories for women) would be good for the game of hockey. 

Wickenheiser has the advantage of having played high level hockey, winning gold medals at the women's world championships and the Olympics. I don't know that there's comparable skill level in baseball for women to gain experience.Of course, many male baseball front office people haven't played baseball at a high level either so that shouldn't be an impediment for women.

W-L
Tampa 67-61
Dodgers 67-61

Playoff Odds
Tampa 0.1%
Dodgers 54.7%

No. There is a significant portion of the troll-types on the box who do seem to hate Martin, or at least his contract. CBDC, you are the last person on this site who should be scolding people for 'hate' posts. It's been better for a while now on the box. insulting posts like 'the word .... seems to be causing you trouble' are just trolling. ... please work on the condescension.

What's remarkable about this post isn't the hypocrisy of combining personal insults with the some virtue-signalling about 'trolling' and 'hate'. 'Hey, what a nice guy this is posting these insults". It's the poster's apparent belief that this isn't obvious to anyone of intelligence. Having made that observation, let me try to turn the conversation toward the constructive.

1. The word 'hate' is a serious word. It denotes a (usually irrational) contempt for a person or group. While teenage social media lexicon conflates criticism with hatred of a person, it is a practice which degrades the other person and is intended only to thwart intelligent conversation, presumably for lack of anything persuasive to say.

2. Conflating criticism of a player's contract with 'anti-Martin hate', the phrase I was responding to, similarly is intended to thwart intelligent conversation. I certainly do 'criticize' Martin's contract, for reasons I will explain below, but to conflate that with 'anti-Martin hate' is nothing more than an intellectual artifice hoping to substitute for intelligent dialogue.

3. 'Trolling' isn't pointing out the difference between 'hatred' on the one hand, and 'criticism' on the other, and it's certainly not expressing disdain for the conflation of the two. Nor is it posting a view that another poster disagrees with, which is how it seems to be used in the above-quoted post. A good example of 'trolling' is posting the same thing over and over again, with no constructive intention and no apparent intention at all other than to irritate others, and to use the board as one's personal garbage can to complain about one's favourite grievance. A good example is the daily non-stop, multi-posting that took place in the 2017 offseason by one poster every day about Justin Smoak's contract, a minor expenditure in the scheme of things regardless of how it worked out. In this regard, let me agree with the observation that the board has been much more pleasant of late and to indicate that I fully subscribe to Glevin's post in another thread setting out the reason for that improvement.

4. Now to return to Martin's contract, which is a substantive topic, and which I was going to do in response to John's post. There is no universe outside of the internet where you will find any universal commensurate value from Martin with his contract, which is the hallmark of a market. His contract is an outlier, not a plain reflection of the market. The associations of WAR and salary that one typically finds online do not connect with the reality of player salary. For example, there are 8 catchers in MLB with a WAR within a range of +/- .3 of Martin's. The range from Sal Perez at the top to Austin Romine at the bottom. Here are their salaries: 8.7M, 559K,20M, 6.03^M, 559K, 20M, 2.25M, 1.1M. Only one other catcher, Yadier Molina, has as high a salary as Martin. The others range from 559K to 8.7M. The mean for all other catchers is 5.6M . And we have to pay him that for another year. And do you think anyone would trade Yadier Molina for Russell Martin? I don't.

5. The free agent market for Toronto will always require an even worse overpay than it will elsewhere. Martin was reported to have been offered 64/4M by only one of the other 29 teams. We ended up having to pay him almost 30% more than only one other team was willing to pay, 82M. Although much of Toronto internet seems to believe that teams are acquired on the free agent market annually, the reality is that Toronto more than anyone else is dependent upon the draft and international signings. It did poorly in those areas in the 2002-2015 period, resulting in depending upon a free agent catcher who is not tradable.

CBDC, i dunno .... like it or not, you have a troll track record.  You are mean spirited, hostile, belittling.  Cut that mean, nasty stuff out, and I'm not going to complain about anything you say.