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So much for Johan Santana being the first domino to fall.

Dan Haren was traded to the Diamondbacks for a package centered around OF Carlos Gonzalez.

The Jays signed Sal Fasano to a minor league deal as a fall back backup catcher option.



Haren Heads to Arizona | 72 comments | Create New Account
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MrPurple - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 06:27 PM EST (#177937) #
Also, Fasano has come back into the Blue Jay fold according the the wire on foxsports.com
Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:06 PM EST (#177940) #
Carlos Gonzalez, Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, Chris Carter, and Aaron Cunningham. The A's also sent right Connor Robertson to the D'Backs.

The D'Backs also completed another deal, sending closer Jose Valverde to the Astros for Chris Burke, Chad Qualls, and Juan Gutierrez.

This has been a pretty fun offseason so far.
Gitz - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:06 PM EST (#177941) #
Well, colour me confused. That's the best they can do for Haren? Heck, a month ago they probably could have Carlos Quentin! Yikes, it's going to be a dreadful couple of years in Oakland. Ah, well. At least Bobby Crosby's still around.

He is still around, right?

Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:12 PM EST (#177943) #
Here's a running total of what Ed Wade of the Houston Astros has done this offseason.


Out:
Brad Lidge
Eric Bruntlett
Troy Patton
Josh Anderson
Trevor Miller
Matt Albers
Troy Patton
Luke Scott
Chad Qualls
Chris Burke
Juan Gutierrez

In:
Reggie Abercrombie
Doug Brocail
Geoff Blum
Michael Bourn
Oscar Villareal
Kaz Matsui
Ryan Houston
Miguel Tejada
Jose Valverde

Ed Wade is a mover and shaker.

Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:15 PM EST (#177944) #
Looks like I forgot Mike Lamb and Adam Everett. Ed Wade's gone nuts.
Mylegacy - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:28 PM EST (#177946) #

So, if the O's won't move Bedard within the division that only leaves Santana for the two evil empires to fight over. And the Yanks need him millions of times more than the Sox do.

Is there any chance...any chance...any...say: Rios, Marcum and Purcey or Cecil for Santana? Rios would go nice with D. Young and Cuddyer in their outfield. We could afford Santana if Santa left a few extra bob in JP's stocking.

Amarsh - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:30 PM EST (#177947) #
I wouldn't give up 3 years of Rios and (i forget- 4?) years of Marcum for 1 year of Santana.
slitheringslider - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:35 PM EST (#177948) #

Not that Jose Valverde is not good, but that is another terrible deal by Ed Wade (the other being the Tejada deal). Valverde's second half implosion in 2006 scares me, and since he is due for a huge pay raise soon (rumours has it he asked for around a 4/46 contract). Qualls at least is a passable closer and have a couple years left before arbitration. In my mind, Valverde is no better than Brad Lidge, both can be very good, but can also implode at any time.

I thought Dan Haren is going to get back more than that package from Arizona, especially since I heard Billy Beane asked for Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy in exchange for Haren. None of the prospects Oakland got back are major league ready, and no one is really considered a 'can't miss' prospect. However, Billy Beane has done a great job conductinig fire sales in the past, I am not going to question his judgment. If he pulls off a deal, it is probably good.

Now that one of the 3 Aces are off the market (Bedard, and Santana being the other two), I wonder who is going next?

John Northey - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:44 PM EST (#177950) #
Mylegacy, if the Jays could get away with that and get Santana to sign on the dotted line (as I've said many times, many ways, the Jays can afford him) that would be fun.

Still, I know if I was the Jays I'd be very nervous about giving a pitcher 6-7 years no matter how good. Use Dave Stieb as a Jay example. After his age 27 (one year younger than Santana) season he just won an ERA title, 8 years of 100+ ERA+'s with 3 in a row of 140+. A 7 year deal would've given us ERA+'s of 90-111-130-109-140-133-81. So 3 years of what was hoped/paid for, 2 solid seasons, and 2 years which were comparable to Josh Towers 2007 (83 ERA+). Is that worth $20 mil per year? That is what can happen and that was without injuries until the final 2 seasons ('91-92 for Stieb).

Basically if the Jays trade for Santana (which I really, really doubt will happen) it would be a sign they see the next 1-3 years as key and are willing to do anything to win during those years even if it screws them up after that. I'd sign Santana as a free agent in a second but trading tons of talent for him plus 6-7 years at $20 per? Nah.
ANationalAcrobat - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:50 PM EST (#177951) #
The Valverde deal is good news for Jays fans: Burke is a potential replacement for Orlando Hudson in Arizona, who is a free agent after 2008. Hill can play SS when Hudson becomes our 2B, right...right?
Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:54 PM EST (#177952) #
The Valverde deal is good news for Jays fans: Burke is a potential replacement for Orlando Hudson in Arizona, who is a free agent after 2008. Hill can play SS when Hudson becomes our 2B, right...right?

Aaron Hill is A)better offensively than Hudson B)better defensively than Hudson and C)cheaper than Hudson. Seriously, what is the infatuation with Hudson. He was good, but Hill is just better.
ANationalAcrobat - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 08:11 PM EST (#177954) #
Did you watch the Jays in 2004?
Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 08:16 PM EST (#177955) #
The O-Dawg's 98 OPS+ was awesome that year. Imagine what Aaron Hill is going to do in his age 26 season, if he already put up a 107 OPS+ last year.
ANationalAcrobat - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 08:31 PM EST (#177956) #
I'm not saying I don't want Hill on the team! I just want Hill at SS, where he would have most value to the current Jays. Hudson, for the sake of context, has posted an OPS+ of 102 and 106 in the last two years.
Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 08:41 PM EST (#177957) #
He is three seasons into what is traditionally a player's peak, whereas Hill has not begun his. Hill is also as of right now a superior defensive second baseman, while only being averageish at SS. He is also under control for at least three more years, whereas Hudson would be making market money. Aaron Hill is better than Orlando Hudson, and Aaron Hill is a second baseman, not a shortstop.
ANationalAcrobat - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 08:50 PM EST (#177958) #
Aaron Hill is a second baseman, not a shortstop.

What a ridiculous statement - neither of us can know for sure unless he spends a season or so at SS. I do for sure though that it's far easier to find a good 2B than it is to find a good SS.

Ozzieball - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 08:54 PM EST (#177959) #
Aaron Hill has 549 innings as a shortstop. Over this time he has not been very good defensively. It is far from conclusive evidence, but he was also the best defensive 2b in baseball last year, and when asked by JP said that he would like to remain a 2b permanently. As best we have evidence, Aaron Hill is a second baseman now and for the future, not a shortstop.
ANationalAcrobat - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 09:04 PM EST (#177960) #
As best we have evidence, Aaron Hill is a second baseman now and for the future, not a shortstop.

I never doubted that. It won't stop me from believing that Hill would help this team at SS more though. Oh, and Mark Ellis may have been a better 2B last year. Hard to say for sure, but some metrics say so.

williams_5 - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 09:44 PM EST (#177961) #
You don't see a lot of young top pitchers like Haren traded unless its for some finishing pieces on a contending team (and even then its usually more of a prospect). Is this trade evidence of the fact that Oakland will not (in the forseeable future) build a team around certain key guys, but rather keep the roster in a state of flux until the team as a whole is able to mature together and contend cheaply? I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise given its Oakland, and they know how to build playoff teams with creativity in spite of limited budgets, but it still seems weird to see a team trade a really good player in their prime when they are young enough to build around.
slitheringslider - Friday, December 14 2007 @ 10:04 PM EST (#177962) #

You don't see a lot of young top pitchers like Haren traded unless its for some finishing pieces on a contending team

I definitely agree. I am guessing the rationale is that Haren's trade value is at his peak right now, but is that really all they can get for him?

I was comparing Haren and Halladay earlier, and despite it being Haren's career year and Halladay's off-year, they had really similar seasons. Haren's WHIP has been around 1.2 the past 3 seasons, while that's great, it hardly screams Ace. Maybe Billy Beane does not see Haren as an Ace, but merely as a #2 starter, and cash in after Haren had his career year. If you compare FIP, his ERA jumps from 3rd in the AL to T-9 with Dustin McGowan, and behind Roy Halladay. According to FIP, even Joe Blanton was better than Haren last season. I am guessing Billy Beane see something similar. However, if Beane waited a little bit longer, I still feel like he would've gotten a better package for Haren.

HollywoodHartman - Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 12:38 AM EST (#177963) #
"The Padres have acquired Jim Edmonds from the Cardinals for David Freese, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune"

-Rotoworld.
Amarsh - Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 02:50 AM EST (#177965) #
Let's also consider that Beane is probably happy to trade Haren out of the American League.  He might have gotten a better package if he'd traded with the Yankees or Red Sox, but sending him to the NL means the A's don't have to face him.

As for Santana, I'd love to see him with the Jays (who wouldn't?), but I just don't see it  He has the Yankees AND the Red Sox bidding on him.  The cost in prospects to trade for him, as well as the price of the new contract he'll eventually sign, is going to be absurd.  Someone's going to eventually give up too many prospects and too risky of a contract, so I'm happy to see the Jays staying out of that auction.

Gerry - Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 09:44 AM EST (#177974) #

Oakland picked up the Diamondbacks #1; #3; #7 and #8 prospects plus two lefty pitchers.  Gonzalez is close to major league ready but the other three prospects are further away in AA or A ball.  It looks to me that the A's are looking to 2009 or 2010 with a recognition that the A's might not be as strong in 2008. 

Crosby is still there, sometimes, he is either there or on rehab.

The DB's and Dodgers are ready to take on the Dodgers in what should be an interesting 2008 season in the NL West.

Bones - Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 10:45 AM EST (#177975) #
The Haren trade does seem to signal a full scale rebuilding effort for the A's.  That would lead me to believe that Joe Blanton and Huston Street will both be on the move in the near future.  Harden, Crosby and Chavez could all be moved as well (but I would imagine that Beane would rather let them have a chance to re-establish some value next year before moving them).  I have a feeling that the A's are about to trade anyone and everyone with any significant value over the course of the next 8 to 10 months (outside of young players such as Buck, Suzuki, Barton, etc.).  Beane, unlike a lot of other GM's, in confident enough in his abilities and job security to run out a team that might lose 90-100 games for a couple of seasons if it means that down the line he will be able to put together another winner.
Mike Green - Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 02:03 PM EST (#177979) #
My two favourite GMs, Beane and Byrnes, make a trade, so I cannot resist a comment.  Haren is pretty much a known quantity.  He's a very good, but not great, pitcher.  Carlos Gonzalez is not so well known around here. At age 19 in 2005, he was basically where Travis Snider is now, having hit very well in the Midwest League.  Since then, he has regressed as a hitter.  At 21, he was a so-so in double A, with strike zone control becoming a significant issue.  He is still a fine prospect, but I would much, much rather have Snider right now, notwithstanding Gonzalez' defensive superiority.

Brett Anderson is a really nice 19 year old left-handed pitching prospect.  I suspect that Beane was more interested in Anderson than Gonzalez. 

In the end, it is, as others have noted, a classic "present for future" trade.  The D'Backs are probably the team to beat in the NL West in 2007 now.

scottt - Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 04:25 PM EST (#177985) #
We all knew that Haren was on the trading block so nobody should be surprised. Considering the look of the 2008 Angels and the competitiveness of the wild card, it's not a bad move. The A's will rebound just in time for a move into their new ballpark.

I think this raises the cost of Santana and It's now a good think that Bedard isn't going anywhere in the division.

Flex - Sunday, December 16 2007 @ 10:28 AM EST (#178003) #
The fifth major newspaper covering the moves of JP Ricciardi that would be the Boston Globe conducts a Q&A with our GM here. You have to scroll down.
brent - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 07:24 AM EST (#178016) #
According to the Hardball Times, Vernon Wells had the second highest percent of infield flies in the majors last year. They noted that an infield fly is almost as bad as a strikeout by %. http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=batting&linesToDisplay=50&qual_filter=1&season_filter[0]=2007&league_filter[0]=All&pos_filter[0]=All&Submit=Submit&orderBy=ifPerF&direction=DESC&page=1
danjulien - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 09:21 AM EST (#178020) #
Apparently Dennis , acquired in the Tejada trade by Baltimore, can touch 101 mph but lacks command...
danjulien - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 09:22 AM EST (#178021) #
that should read Dennis Sarfate
SK in NJ - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 09:24 AM EST (#178022) #

We all knew that Haren was on the trading block so nobody should be surprised. Considering the look of the 2008 Angels and the competitiveness of the wild card, it's not a bad move. The A's will rebound just in time for a move into their new ballpark.

I agree that it was a smart move by Beane. I don't know too much about the players he got in return, but there is no point in treading water at .500 when you know the chances for post-season are slim. Trading for young talented prospects in hopes of competing down the road when the window for other teams may be closing is really the only hope Beane has.

It's a philosophy the Jays may have to consider if they fail again in 2008.

ramone - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 10:46 AM EST (#178026) #

On that note of trading for young talented prospects, it could be interesting at the trade deadline this year if the Jays are out of it, we could see Glaus or Burnett or both moved.  I hope the Jays are either realistically in the race by the deadline or far enough out to actually makes some trades for future returns, rather than standing pat and coming in third again.

danjulien - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 12:16 PM EST (#178033) #
I think this is something the Jays haven't done in the J.P. era and it's hurt them.
They allowed Delgado to walk instead of trading him in-season a few years ago and they've never said, to heck with it, let's blow this up and pick up a ton of good prospects.  The closest they came was last off-season when they let Cat and Speier go to pick up some extra draft picks. 
I just think the Jays need to dip their feet in the free agent waters some more and trade vets for prospects.  Instead of trading for Glaus, sign someone and then pick up some good young prospects for O-Dog and Batista...just a thought.
MatO - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 01:01 PM EST (#178035) #

They allowed Delgado to walk instead of trading him in-season a few years ago

Delgado had a no trade agreement.  Rumours were that the Jays had a deal to trade him (Dodgers?) but Delgado refused to waive the no trade choosing not to go to a contender at the deadline.  The Jays were pretty annoyed at this.   I think JP may have confirmed this at the time.

danjulien - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 01:22 PM EST (#178036) #
There are methods to make people waive their no-trade clauses...
timpinder - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 01:45 PM EST (#178037) #

The Delgado situation was unfortunate.  Ricciardi couldn't trade him because of his no-trade clause and couldn't offer him arbitration in the off-season since Delgado would probably accept and the Jays' budget at the time couldn't absorb the cost.  The Jays ended up losing one of their best players for nothing, not even draft picks. 

As for trades at the deadline, unless the Jays are a complete disaster, I don't see them trading Glaus unless it's specifically for a replacement 3B.  There are no legitimate 3B prospects in the Jays' system over the age of 18, and the best free agent third baseman next year is Blalock.  If Glaus is healthy I wouldn't be surprised to see Ricciardi try to extend his contract or at least buy out his 2009 player option.  Burnett's another story though.

MatO - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 02:42 PM EST (#178038) #
The Jays had no money to pay Delgado to waive his no trade.  We were giddily hoping for a budget bump from $50M to $52M (how times have changed).  The buying team would have had to pay it but it seemed that Delgado had no interest at all in being traded and exercised his right to prevent one.
Mike Green - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 02:56 PM EST (#178039) #
The Rays signed Cliff Floyd today, so they have Floyd, Baldelli and Gomes for RF/DH.  If Iwamura can play second base passably well, it's going to be a fun season in Tampa. 
Chuck - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 03:01 PM EST (#178040) #
The buying team would have had to pay it but it seemed that Delgado had no interest at all in being traded and exercised his right to prevent one.

And then took heat for doing so, as if it was somehow incumbent upon him to forego a right he had negotiated so that the team that no longer wanted him could benefit.
parrot11 - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 03:14 PM EST (#178041) #

Ricciardi couldn't trade him because of his no-trade clause and couldn't offer him arbitration in the off-season since Delgado would probably accept and the Jays' budget at the time couldn't absorb the cost.

The NTC and his unwillingness to waive it is correct, but there was no chance that Delgado was willing to accept arbitration. He was looking for a longterm deal and wasn't about to sign off on a 1yr contract. For that reason, I thought it was a stupid decision not to offer him arbitration.

MatO - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 03:50 PM EST (#178044) #

I thought it was a stupid decision not to offer him arbitration.

In hindsuight.  There were expectations at the time that there was going to be a big market correction for guys like Delgado.  In DaBox at the time I was one of the few who thought the Jays should offer a $30M over 3 year deal and still fit it in an increased $52M budget.  Most posters here wouldn't have offered even that much.  With arbitration he would have recieved more than $10M maybe even $15M and there was no way the Jays could risk that.  The Mets tried to play the Latin card to get Delgado to sign for less but in a complete surprise he signed a $52M over 4 year deal with the Marlins which was heavily back loaded and so much for the market correction.  In DaBox there wasn't a hell of a lot of controversy about not offering arbitration.

Pistol - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 03:51 PM EST (#178045) #
Delgado signed for 4 years and $52 million, or an average of $13 million/year.

He made $18.5 million in his final year in Toronto.  I'm not aware of a healthy player getting a decreased arbitration award so 1 year at a similar salary to $18.5 million might be better than $13 million over 4 years (which was also heavily backloaded).

Mike Green - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 03:58 PM EST (#178046) #
At the time, I said that the Jays should have offered 3 years/$33 million and arbitration.  There was certainly a risk that he would have accepted and gotten $16.5 million in arbitration, but it was one that was worth taking.  This was not necessarily the fault of Ricciardi; he had done a good job of cutting the budget prior to that, and the organization ought to have allowed him the luxury of a one year budget bump if Carlos had accepted arbitration (bearing in mind that there would not have been a no-trade clause associated with an arbitration award). 
Mark - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 04:27 PM EST (#178047) #
I think the was 10/5 implications that would have given Delgado trade veto rights.
Geoff - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 05:15 PM EST (#178050) #
Say Delgado was offered arbitration, who might the Jays have in the system as compensation given that he signed elsewhere?

Would they likely have Eli Iorg, Luke Hochevar, Clay Bucholz? Maybe Mark McCormick or Jed Lowrie?

Would the Jays receive the marlins' first round pick and a supplementary? Might we imagine that the Jays could have selected Jacoby Ellsbury and Clay Bucholz as Delgado's compensation? (or given the attitude about the Jays' competence in drafting, perhaps not -- I just mean plausible, not probable)

Excalabur - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 06:31 PM EST (#178051) #
This is something that's often neglected: failing to trade someone at the deadline doesn't neccessarily decrease the amount of "stuff" you get: it just takes longer to get there.  You can't neglect the value of those two draft picks when evaluating a possible deadline deal, from either side.

CaramonLS - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 08:25 PM EST (#178052) #

Yes, but when dealing players for prospects the team who deals them assumes they are getting back the premium fee (for time the player spends on the other team for their playoff run) as well as the fee for those 1/2 high draft picks.

Also, when trading players for prospects the team generally gets more established prospects, who are closer to the bigs and have a much stronger predictablity in terms of their talent than draft guys.  If JP had traded guys like Escobar, Cat, Speier and Lidle for prospects instead of letting them walk, we might be talking about a different and better team for next year.

ayjackson - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 09:10 PM EST (#178053) #

 If JP had traded guys like Escobar, Cat, Speier and Lidle for prospects instead of letting them walk, we might be talking about a different and better team for next year.

Better for next year, but likely worse over the long run.  Cat and Speier were not going to return the high end prospects that we yielded from their departure in the draft, in my opinion.    Managing free agents to maximize draft picks is an important part of building the future of the team and it's the reason the Red Sox system is so strong.  They had eleven first round picks in four years from 2002 - 2005.

If I recall correctly, Cat yielded Kevin Ahrens and Justin Jackson and Speier yielded Brett Cecil and Eric Eiland.

danjulien - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 09:37 PM EST (#178054) #
I truly think that Blue Jays management was right in not dealing Speier/Cat and instead taking those four picks.  Both those guys were slotted very high for players of their caliber. 
Interesting point about deadline deals and what could have been received during the draft instead of the prospects, would be worth looking into.  Even when GMs (such as Beane in the moneyball year) trade for a player knowing they'll get prospects back by letting them walk through free agency...makes good material for a blog article.
GregJP - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 10:16 PM EST (#178055) #
I find it amusing when guys that know NOTHING about minor leaguers wonder if Beane could have traded Haren for more.  LOL

1.  Haren is vastly ovverated
2.  As a semi-intelligent poster above noted.....the haul for Haren was amazing.

Do you guys really think Beane would have pulled the trigger without waiting for a Santana conclusion unless the deal was too good to pass up?


Excalabur - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 10:16 PM EST (#178056) #
Yes, but when dealing players for prospects the team who deals them assumes they are getting back the premium fee (for time the player spends on the other team for their playoff run) as well as the fee for those 1/2 high draft picks.

You'd think so, wouldn't you.  Dave over at USSM showed that this is much less the case than one might assume.  Here's this year's version. 

Note the the players examined there are mostly fancier players than Cat or Speier: thus, given that they were "A" free agents, the return from trading them is probably even worse.

danjulien - Monday, December 17 2007 @ 10:32 PM EST (#178057) #
Another great article from USSM...definitely an interesting study...I don't like that he doesn't follow the line however...such as:
Stewart -> Kielty -> Lilly's 3 seasons ->Trystan Magnuson (compensatory draft pick for Lilly)
Still a great analysis and I get that he wanted a basic principle...but the Jays trade does not look as bad when comparing statistics(trade 11)...
Lilly is also an interesting case study as to whether it would have been more valuable to trade him at the deadline than receive a 56th pick as compensation...
Jacko - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 12:48 AM EST (#178059) #
1.  Haren is vastly ovverated
2.  As a semi-intelligent poster above noted.....the haul for Haren was amazing.

Um, by what measure is Haren overrated?

He's durable, gets lots of strikeouts (increased his rate in 3 straight years), and is signed to a very cheap deal for 2008 and 2009.  The only flaw in his game is that he's a little homer prone (but no worse than a certain Minnesota lefthander who will make more than 3x what Haren will in 2008 and 2009).

I think Beane pulled the trigger too early.   Haren for 4 MM in 2008 and 5.5 MM in 2009 is just too good a deal.  That's exactly the kind of pitcher a cost conscious team should be hanging on to.

I think Carlos Gonzales and Brett Anderson are the overrated guys in this trade.  Lots of superstar potential and also lots of flameout potential.  The Athletics would have been better off getting a smaller group of guys that are closer to the majors. 
scottt - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 07:35 AM EST (#178061) #
On that note of trading for young talented prospects, it could be interesting at the trade deadline this year if the Jays are out of it, we could see Glaus or Burnett or both moved.  I hope the Jays are either realistically in the race by the deadline or far enough out to actually makes some trades for future returns, rather than standing pat and coming in third again.

Hopefully the Jays won't be out of it with a healthy Glaus/Burnett pair.  Glaus  would  probably be very hard to move anyway and I don't see many teams willing to pay fair price for a healthy Burnett.

The thing that bothers me it that Boston and NY always find ways to improve their teams at the deadline and that Toronto usually doesn't.


lexomatic - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 08:55 AM EST (#178062) #

think Beane pulled the trigger too early.   Haren for 4 MM in 2008 and 5.5 MM in 2009 is just too good a deal.  That's exactly the kind of pitcher a cost conscious team should be hanging on to.
I would agree generally with what you said here Jacko, except in the case where you feel your team will not be contending and the prospects that you can get in return are worth moreto the future success of your team. In this case Haren would no longer be cheap and cost controlled when the Athletics next best window of opportunity might be, and trading him now for prospects who will be ready in 2-3 years means that you have the potential of a core coming together at the same time, instead of continually building.

The thing that bothers me it that Boston and NY always find ways to improve their teams at the deadline and that Toronto usually doesn't.

Maybe recently, but in the early 90s there were some great stretch-drive deals. Ricky Henderson? so it didn't work out but that's a huge move. I mean there was a reason that Gillick was called "Stand Pat", but he did makes some good trades eventually.

GregJP - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 09:07 AM EST (#178063) #
Um, by what measure is Haren overrated?

I think the combination of park and defense has greatly contributed to Haren's success.  Granted, he has good peripherals, but his gopher ball tendencies might be further exposed in his new surroundings.

There also seem to be a few concerns about his long term durability.

I just think this is a classic sell high by Beane, and as a previous poster mentioned, Haren's value will be much diminished a year from now, and the A's aren't making the playoffs in the next few years anyway.

I won't get into scouting reports here, but the package the A's received was very very good.

It seems to me that J.P. was trying to do something similar with Rios, with the differences being that he targeted a single cheaper player, and the fact that the Jays have "some chance" of making the playoffs in 2008.
Lefty - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 11:16 AM EST (#178064) #

Longtime CBC broadcaster Don Chevrier passed away in Florida with a blood disorder.

I know longtime Canadian baseball fans will have fond memories.

GregJP - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 12:09 PM EST (#178065) #

Longtime CBC broadcaster Don Chevrier passed away in Florida with a blood disorder.

I know longtime Canadian baseball fans will have fond memories.


That is very sad.  I used to enjoy his work a lot.

On a related note, Don Whittman is very ill.  We could be losing two legendary Canadian broadcasters within a short period of time.
John Northey - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 01:32 PM EST (#178068) #
How sad. Chevrier was the voice I heard most of the time when watching Jay games back in the 80's and I associated him very strongly with the team. I missed him when he retired (I assume that is what happened) and feel sad for his family. For some reason I thought he was older than that 69 though.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/286622
Original Ryan - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 02:30 PM EST (#178069) #
Sad to hear.  When he did an inning of TV play-by-play on Sportsnet this year, he still sounded like he did in his prime.  When CBC got the rights to a handful of Jays games this year, I had hoped he'd be the one doing the play-by-play.  He was a professional and one of the best to call Jays games.

I'm not sure if Chevvy retired after 1996 or there just wasn't a spot for him.  Brian Williams replaced him on CBC broadcasts in 1993 (for reasons I'll never know), but he continued to call the CTV/Baton games until their deal with the team expired in 1996.
Flex - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 03:24 PM EST (#178071) #
Chevy was truly a wonderful broadcaster. He had the great voice and the ability to find the drama in the game. He had great pacing and he was total class, never stooping to dumb side jokes or banter to plump up his persona. In that way he was a lot like Vin Scully.

If you never heard Chevrier just listen to Dan Schulman and imagine him with a richer voice. Schulman grew up in Canada, and I'm quite convinced that Chevy was a major influence on him.
ANationalAcrobat - Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 09:09 PM EST (#178077) #
There's an interesting Rays discussion over at BTF, centered around a stunningly good prospect list. They really do seem ready to contend for third place in the AL East. I expect that along with the A's and Mariners, the Rays are about to become a team I casually root for.
timpinder - Wednesday, December 19 2007 @ 12:24 AM EST (#178081) #
I think the Rays will be out of the basement this year, finishing ahead of the Orioles and in fourth place.  I don't think they're quite ready to catch the Jays though, but maybe in a couple of years if things go well for them and things go poorly for the Jays.  Maybe.  The problem with the Rays is that until they spend money they won't be able to keep their stars, so as quickly as their prospects begin to reach stardom their older stars will be on the way out.  It's a revolving door over there, like the Marlins, but without any World Series rings.  Besides, IF the Rays do start winning, they'll stop getting the first overall pick every year.  It's hard to imagine that with all of those top picks they still haven't had a winning season.
Original Ryan - Wednesday, December 19 2007 @ 01:14 AM EST (#178082) #
People have predicted good things for the Rays for the past few years and they've always managed to lose 90+ games.  This isn't very scientific, but until they actually do break out of the basement, I'm going to keep predicting a last-place finish for them.
SheldonL - Wednesday, December 19 2007 @ 01:37 AM EST (#178084) #
Scott, give me an example of how the Yankees made a deadline trade that actually helped them.
And I'm not talking about Shawn Chacon's amazing sub 3.00 ERA only to see him explode to the 5.00ERA the following year.

Have they ever made a deadline deal that made them better?
zeppelinkm - Wednesday, December 19 2007 @ 07:24 AM EST (#178086) #
That Abreu guy was a pretty good deadline pickup, if you ask me. It might have been a salary dump on the Phillies part, but still a deadline deal that made the Yanks much better.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, December 19 2007 @ 09:30 PM EST (#178123) #
The problem with predicting great things for the Rays is that it assumes all their ace prospects will develop as expected and on the same timeline. We all know that's not true, particularly where pitching prospects are concerned - some guys will get injured, some will fizzle out or just be average instead of great, some might struggle for a while and get traded before blossoming somewhere else.

Not to mention the fact that Tampa is pretty cheap - getting a bunch of young guys to develop isn't quite as exciting if it's happening at the same time management decides it doesn't want to pay Crawford and Kazmir any more. And on the whole, I  find it difficult to root for an organization that's gotten to where it is by being absolutely terrible for ten years.

williams_5 - Thursday, December 20 2007 @ 07:20 PM EST (#178138) #
How about this then...Would it be fair to say that based on the Haren trade, the A's goal by 2010 is to look like the 2008 Rays (in terms of youth and potential)? I can't see how they would advance beyond that so quickly if they don't keep around guys like Haren, but I don't doubt in the slightest that Beane knows what he's doing. Overall, it would seem that clubs typically try to build around their best young players and try to add the right complements to them to put a winning team on the field. I suppose the other route is to trade your best young players if you don't think they are good enough to build a winner around, and I assume Beane's decision to trade Haren centres around that assessment. These types of decisions are obviously critical to the smaller market teams because if you lock up the wrong group of players you will likely be stuck in mediocrity for some time.
CeeBee - Thursday, December 20 2007 @ 09:14 PM EST (#178141) #
The other question then is Beane the Einstein of baseball  or was he just a wee bit on the lucky side to have the big three of Hudson, Zito and Mulder pan out all at the right time?  How much is luck and how much is skill may take more than one cycle to find out.
Mylegacy - Thursday, December 20 2007 @ 09:21 PM EST (#178142) #
Will Joba, Hughes and Kennedy be bigger?
Ozzieball - Thursday, December 20 2007 @ 09:40 PM EST (#178144) #
Will Joba, Hughes and Kennedy be bigger?

Kennedy doesn't have much ceiling left, and is a true #3 starter. Joba can be a legit #1 though, and Hughes' ceiling is that of a perennial Cy contender.

The other question then is Beane the Einstein of baseball  or was he just a wee bit on the lucky side to have the big three of Hudson, Zito and Mulder pan out all at the right time?  How much is luck and how much is skill may take more than one cycle to find out.

Beane as a GM is excellent at the human element. He is very charismatic, and good at manipulating people. However, the A's were a sabermetric team under Sandy Alderston (who taught Beane), the real stats-usage came from Paul DePodesta, and the stats really come from as far back as the 70s. Beane's strongest asset is probably that he knows to delegate the statscrunching, and to trust his crunchers and scouts (HIS scouts) who he recognizes as knowing more than he does.
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