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A stupid schedule sees the Blue Jays play in Boston twice with an off-day in between. #LetsGoBlueJays


Series Schedule / Probable Starters

Tuesday at 2:05 pm ET - Matt Shoemaker vs. Chris Sale
Wednesday - Day Off
Thursday at 7:10 pm ET - Aaron Sanchez vs. Nate Eovaldi

Both teams are 3-8 to start the season.
Blue Jays @ Red Sox - April 9 & 11 | 108 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
uglyone - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#372257) #
ok I will cheer against the red sox at least.
uglyone - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#372260) #
I mean, flexibility is nice and all, but having Hanson and Gurriel as your 1B/DH combo is all kinds of silly.

and embarassing.
hypobole - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#372262) #
Sad Thought.

In a season with no hope of contending, I think I'd rather watch a Jays loss with Shulman than a Jays win with Tabler.
Chuck - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#372263) #
4 runs in 4 innings. Who can contain this juggernaut?
uglyone - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#372264) #
I TAKE IT ALL BACK.

RED SUX!!
bpoz - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#372265) #
Cheers everyone!!! The sun is shining.
92-93 - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#372266) #
A bunt with first and second and no outs followed by a strikeout, a run scoring on a passed ball, and then a steal of home?! Here comes the bunts do do do do.
Chuck - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#372267) #
The Fenway faithful are now booing their World Series winners in their home opener. Class. Pure class.
grjas - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#372268) #
I know itís schadenfreude, but I love watching Boston tanking. If by some miracle the Jays could take both games, it would be a bright ray of sunshine in a month of deluge.

Ok Iím getting just a wee bit ahead of things....
Cracka - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#372269) #
The first stolen base of the year - in our 12th game - is a straight steal of home by Gurriel. That was our best inning of the year, but there were some lucky breaks & mistakes - Urena's bunt was ugly and came on a 0-2 count after two previous failed bunt attempts. Sale & Vasquez got their signs crossed on the 2nd passed ball, and Sale simply took too long (pitching from the windup) on the steal of home, though full marks for Gurriel for reading it and getting a great jump.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#372270) #
Was there a reason behind bunting with 0 out in the 4th inning just to have runners in scoring position for a career 71 wRC+ hitter who can't hit lefties?

From the little I have seen so far, Montoyo is not an analytical manager.
Chuck - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#372271) #
Buck told him to.
Nigel - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#372272) #
I think we can safely assume that Montoyo doesn't know that he got saddled with this Alan Hanson:)

Mike Green - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#372273) #
The club has had their share of line drives and hard hit ground balls today.  Nice change.

The telegraphed bunt in the 4th inning with runners on 2nd and 3rd and nobody out, up a run, is generally a tough proposition analytically.  The only reason to do is for development reasons- to get Urena used to doing it, as it may be an important tool for him. 
aarne13 - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#372274) #
Teoscar in LF. ooof. I'd rather see Gurriel Jr.
prospect - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#372275) #
In terms of position players, I don't see anyone on the team that is good enough to be a contributor moving forward except for Gurriel who can be a utility type, nothing more.

It's funny how Teoscar keeps rubbing his eye as if that caused his blunder in left. Just accept you're a crappy defender, no need to put an act on.

This will be a loooooooong season. Just wake me up when Vladdy and Bo arrive.
hypobole - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#372276) #
We've really been spoiled by all these years of .500ish baseball.

Funny the few posters I don't see complain much are those that were around in the late 70's and remember rooting for truly awful Jays teams.
Nigel - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#372277) #
Having been a fan since day 1 in 1977, I think there is some truth to the idea that we haven't seen a truly awful team in some years and we've forgotten how bad that can be.

For myself, I understand where the team is on the success curve and believe this is much closer to a 100 loss team than a .500 team. I'm content to cheer for a terrible team so long as there appears to be a coherent plan for development. Give Gurriel his 250-400 ABs as a middle infielder. Play McKinney, even if he's struggling, to find out if he can be an everyday OF, etc. But, when enough data has been collected, I want to see the correct choices being made. I think we are nearing, but not yet at, that point with Hernandez as an OF. If Hernandez continues to be a terrible defensive OF (even if he's hitting), I want to see that experiment ended. Thematically, I do wish the team would play better defence, but that's a personal foible.
uglyone - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#372278) #
I think the opposite - the old timers has very few years of awfulness to deal with (basically 5yrs of badness but withn the joy of actually having our own team to cheer for), and all sorts of instant and sustained success. The first 20yrs were hilariously better than the last 20.


In fact this most recent 3yr span is likely to be the worst 3yr span since those first 5yrs.
grjas - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#372279) #
Teoscar in LF. ooof.

May be they need to switch Biggio to the outfield. They have a lot more playable options at second base in the next few years than they have to cover 3 outfield positions.
hypobole - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#372280) #
Well that was fun
hypobole - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#372281) #
We just leapfrogged 6 teams in the overall standings today. 28 to 22!!!
mathesond - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#372282) #
Oh no! What about our draft position?
dan gordon - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#372283) #
Yes, the stories of Teoscar improving his OF defense seem to be more myth than fact. Still think Gurriel is the guy who should be tried in the OF. Not crazy about all this bunting stuff, but at least the bunt to take you from 1st and 2nd with no outs to get you to 2nd and 3rd with out doesn't hurt your offense all that much, the expected runs are almost as high as they would be if you don't bunt.

I've been very surprised to see so many people, not just here, but among people I know, who are writing off the Blue Jays offense so totally after such a small number of games. Just like the starting pitching isn't going to be anywhere near this good, the hitting isn't going to be anywhere near this bad. Somebody at bowling today said the Jays are going to finish behind Baltimore, somebody else said they would easily strike out 15 times or more against Sale today. Makes me wonder if people heave ever followed baseball. It's a 162 game season. Sure the Jays aren't going to outscore the Yankees, but this offense isn't anywhere near this bad. Then you'll get Guerrero coming up, maybe 2 or 3 among Alford, Pompey, Travis, Bichette, Biggio. Maybe a hitter coming in a trade if they dispense a few veteran pitchers. Guys like Jansen, Gurriel, Hernandez and others are going to hit much better than they've shown so far.

Sign Ken Giles!!
scottt - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#372284) #
April baseball doesn't mean much. You want to see what players can do between May and August.
In September, we'll probably be back to a full 40 roster just because we can.

It's almost like the Jays couldn' t wait to see a lefty.
Sale looks like he signed his extension at the right time.
The Red Sox bullpen isn't what it was either.
This is starting to look like the year for Tampa to win the division.
Don't look but we're playing them next.



Nigel - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#372286) #
dan Gordon - serious question here - not being critical. Why do you want the team to sign Giles? If I asked myself today who is a player that the team might get both a good return for (in order to help the rebuild) and who isn't really needed by the team now or in the next couple of years, the only name I come up with is Giles. He'd be at the very very top of my trade list. So, I'm legitimately interested in the alternative view.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#372287) #
Dan, you say "Sign Ken Giles!!"

Which sign language should I sign that in?

(ASL) American Sign language, or (BSL) British Sign Language unless you would prefer an ASL/BSL combo language namely (PSE) Pidgin Signed English.

The reason I ask is that since I nada about any of them - I'll need to know which one to learn so I can rush out and "Sign Ken Giles!!" I'm particularly looking forward to learning how they make exclamation marks!

I find silliness comes easy when you've beaten an Evil Empire, on the day they wanted to celebrate their World Series win, in their home park, and on a day when our first stolen base of the year is of home. Deliciously precious.
85bluejay - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#372289) #
If Ken Giles is a Blue Jay come August 1st, I'm probably going to be very disappointed.
grjas - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#372290) #
On the topic of schadenfreude, the Orioles only had 6500 fans at their last game and Chris Davis the $161 million man set the all time record for futility- for a position player- at 0 for 49.

Iíd feel sorry for him, but heís got 161 million reasons to be happy.
greenfrog - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#372293) #
The case for Giles could be that he is (a) good, (b) relatively young, and (c) underrated as far as closers go. If the team plans to contend in the next few years, then why not let Giles be the closer, rather than trade him and then have to search elsewhere (possibly in free agency) for a true closer.

I understand the competing point of view, however, which is that (a) contention may be at least a couple of years away, (b) relievers are volatile, (c) pitchers tend to get hurt, and (d) the prospects obtained for Giles will likely be more valuable to the team's long-term chances of contending than Giles will be.
bpoz - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#372294) #
Before 2021 we got 2 seasons to play around with. Possibly losing seasons.

What players are we going to have to make 2021 a playoff season? I am hoping the farm produces a lot. Vlad, Bichette, Biggio etc...

We maybe should sign a few players. We have Grichuk and Gurriel so far. I am fine with keeping or trading Grichuk in 3 years. Giles?? I don't know. If he is good does he get a QO? If they still exist. How good does he have to be? QO is for only 1 year so no big deal. I think.

Sign and trade?? There ia closer and SP still on the market. Why??? I don't know.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#372295) #
I am getting very close to pulling the trigger.

Starting keepers at the Show, (IM(H)O), are: Girchuk (RF), Galvis (SS), Jansen (C), Smoak (1ST/DH/PH), Tellez (1ST/DH/PH).

I want to bring up - (AS STARTERS): Vlad (3rd), Bo (2ND), Biggio (LF), Alford (CF).

Backups: Urena (100%), Maile (100%), and whichever of the following the brass wants to, and or can, keep to fill out a lineup card: Drury, Gurriel, Hernandez and or, McKinney. I'd be happy IF any of them could be moved up and down to AAA/AA as needed and as options admit.

It's getting very close to Show Time at the Show. Time for some talent to show up and shine!
jz6pwc - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#372296) #
any news on Nate Pearson, why he was pulled from the game tonight?
jamesq - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#372297) #
In terms of where we are in the rebuild, I would peg this team at the level of development of the '81 Jays which were part ways through building a very successful team over the next ten years.

'77-"81 were pretty bleak with a sprinkle of veteran players and expansion draftees on the 25 man roster. By '81 we started to see some of the young players who would be part of the core of the Cox era Jays come up and develop in the show. By '82 the team was competitive and continued to improve and have success for years to come.

The post AA years was the start of the rebuild of the org behind the 25 man roster. We are now starting to see some of the future core emerge to the 25 man roster. I hope the org progresses as it did in the 80's.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#372298) #
I think the Jays should consider an extension with Stroman assuming heís willing to sign a reasonable one, but Giles should definitely be moved. High leverage elite relievers are almost a lock to get a good return at the deadline, and Giles has been that type of pitcher every year except for his run with Houston last year. The Jays might not be able to get back that much for Stroman and Sanchez, but Giles should be able to fetch a good return, and expensive closers are almost pointless to have on a rebuilding team since wins will be few and far between.

If the Jays want to win in 2020, then thatís a different story, but I canít imagine thatís something they are planning for right now.
John Northey - Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#372299) #
Good question as to where the Jays are vs the early 80's teams. I've been feeling more like '82 than '81 myself. '81 saw in under 25 year olds Damaso Garcia (2B), Alfredo Griffin (SS - traded before the glory years), Danny Ainge (3B/NBA), Lloyd Moseby (CF), George Bell (LF), Willie Upshaw (1B), Jesse Barfield (RF), Fred Manrique (Utility just 19), and on the mound Dave Stieb (23), Luis Leal (24), Joey McLaughlin (24 and closing), Jim Clancy was 25. Ernie Whitt (a key part of the '85 champs) was 29.

Most of them had minor call ups, and sub 200 PA. But Garcia, Griffin, Ainge, Moseby were everyday players all sub 80 OPS+ too. Ouch.

1982 saw 25 and unders in the lineup - Upshaw, Garcia, Griffin, Moseby, Barfield. Geno Petralli and a couple of never weres came up as well for cups of coffee. The 4 man rotation (all had 23+ starts with 3 have 38+ - those 3 had 249 2/3+ IP each) was 26 and under (Stieb/Clancy/Leal with 38-40 each, Gott with 23, Mark Eichhorn had 7 starts (pre-sidearm). Now that is a youth movement.

Given how the kids this year look a LOT better than that 1981 team I'd say this is more 1982 where the kids were earning their keep more (Upshaw the only one with a 100 OPS+ on the team with 50+ PA). Big 3 in rotation had ERA+'s of 114+ with Gott at 102. Eich sucked at 83.

By 1983 many of the kids were over 25, but for 25 and under we saw Griffin, Moseby, Barfield as everyday players, Bell coming up for 118 PA, Tony Fernandez getting his first taste at 21 (super-hyped - at 21 was in his 2nd year of AAA hitting 300/381/403 while Griffin had a 71 OPS+). Mitch Webster and Geno Petralli both got a tiny bit of playing time (ages 24/23 respectively) but never got real shots here sadly.

Rotation was pretty much the same (Alexander got mixed in mid-season), but Jim Acker as a 24 year old was mixed in, as were some other kids (Mike Morgan being the only one who did much). This team was a LOT better and was in first mid-season.


Yeah, the 80's growth was pretty much perfect. From '81 sucked to 82 meh to 83 'wow' to 84 'stall' to 85 'we win!'. Gillick always was developing and focused on getting more depth in the minors. Sadly he sucked big time at the draft (missing on Gooden and Clemens somehow) and making a few other mistakes (nearly took Wade Boggs in the Rule 5...twice). But it all worked out nicely I'd say.

Current team has 25 and under's in Jansen, Gurriel, McKinney, Tellez, Urena, Alford (minors now). Pitchers Thornton, SRF (minors now), Pannone, and Luciano (mandatory teenager). Soon enough we'll have Vlad as well. I think they will hit more like the '83 team than the '81 team. Lets hope for at least the 82 teams overall results.
dan gordon - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#372300) #
Nigel - greenfrog touched on the main reasons for signing Giles, but here it is in my words. The closer position is a very important one, and the Jays have one of the best, and he's only 28 years old. People always raved about how good Osuna was before the personal troubles started - Giles' career rate stats are very close to Osuna's. He has converted 34 saves in a row now, dating back to the 2017 season. He throws in the high 90's, with a great breaking ball, and is healthy.

The Jays are going to need a closer when they are a contender. We can argue all day long about when that is going to be, but I know that either Shapiro or Atkins stated during the offseason that they expect to be good in 2020, and right there with the Sox and Yankees in 2021. Something to that effect. Why trade one of the best closers now, and then have to go out and trade for one in a year or a year and a half. That makes no sense to me. There is no "closer in waiting" in the farm system. The closest thing to that they had might have been Bergen, and he's now a Giant.

Add in the current problems the Red Sox and Yankees are having, and maybe those teams aren't as solid as previously thought, making contention closer than expected. For the Sox, Chris Sale doesn't look like Chris Sale. Betts is a free agent after next year. Kimbrel is gone, and the Sox bullpen doesn't look great. Devers isn't developing like they thought he would, although he's still very young. Pedroia is basically done. The Yankees have a lot of issues too. Gary Sanchez and Greg Bird aren't the players most thought they would become. Their pitching staff has a lot of age and some injury problems. They do have some good young players in Torres, Judge, Andujar and Severino. I think the Jays have a chance to be competitive next year, certainly by 2021. I hope they sign Giles, one or both of Stroman or Sanchez, and maybe even Buchholz, depending on how good he looks, and how well the young pitchers like Borucki and Thornton are developing. I think this team is closer to being quite good than some people think.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#372301) #
We don't have to wait until 2021 to compete:

2B Bichette
3B Guerrero Jr
RF Grichuk
1B Tellez
C Jansen
LF Biggio
CF Alford
SS Smith
DH Hernandez

Sign Puig or Castellanos or Gerrit Cole. Sign Vlad. Resign Stroman, Sanchez and Giles.


Cole, Stroman, Sanchez, Thornton, Borucki, SRF starting 5. Wait for Pearson and Groshans to come up to further bulk line up in 2020.


dalimon5 - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 01:00 AM EDT (#372302) #
*should have read "further bulk line up in 2021"

* we can compete next year with all that cap room we have and NYY/BOS/CHC/HOU maxed out...my only concern is brass cheaping out because of a big spending low salary team like the CWS
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 06:27 AM EDT (#372303) #
I think this team is closer to being quite good than some people think.

Same here. I see a lot of stuff online to the effect of "The Jays will be terrible the next five years at least" and while that's probably typical dumb sports hyperbole it's still annoying to read.
scottt - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 07:27 AM EDT (#372304) #
The news media is quite down on the team too.
Thankfully, usually the title of the article is all I need to read.

It's too early to say that Giles is a trade target. Maybe that will be Phelps. Or even Tepera.
Right now, the bullpen doesn't have an establish setup guy, so trading the closer would be quite ugly.

Right now Bergen has faced 9 hitters over 5 games and he has only 1 strike out.
The only time he came in with his team in front, he came in and gave up a hit that scored 2 inherited runs.
He has an ERA of 3.86, but for a LOOGY that doesn't tell much.
He allowed 1 run when he got 2 outs to finished the 6th but gave a hit to the first batter in the 7th who ended up scoring. That ended being 2 outs and one 1 hit on 20 pitches.

Too me, that looks more like Aaron Loup, in his later years than a closer.
He could still complete the year with the Giants, but he's not turning into a closer for anyone.

Chuck - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#372305) #
Kevin Pillar has 8 RBI in the last two nights. That alone would lead the Jays.
hypobole - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#372306) #
Pillar was also the leadoff hitter.

Who is going to win more games this year, the "trying to be competitive" Giants or the Jays?
rpriske - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 08:51 AM EDT (#372307) #
I disagree with those who say Giles should be the first player traded from the current team.

Smoak first, THEN Giles...

bpoz - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#372309) #
It is going to take some time to sort through the young players and find out who to keep. With the farm system having a large quantity of prospects in theory the results should be better than the early 80s.

The early 80s did have V good pitching. When Henke arrived the team had a strong pen. Before Henke it was a nightmare.
greenfrog - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#372310) #
"Add in the current problems the Red Sox and Yankees are having, and maybe those teams aren't as solid as previously thought"

Don't forget about the Rays, who could prove to be very good over the next few years. The Jays will need to field a strong team to prevail over those three competitors in the coming seasons.

The front office should have more information by July to help it determine the best path forward. It's a bit early to assess player performance (as we learned last year with Solarte), but some of the off-season moves have shown promise -- Galvis, Thornton, Shoemaker, for example. The team could have a number of solid trade candidates at the deadline (Stroman, Sanchez, Shoemaker, Smoak, Galvis, Giles, among others), if it chooses to go that route.
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#372311) #
I ran a Play Index to find comparables for Giles- relievers who had thrown at least 300 innings by age 28 with a K rate over 10.5 and an ERA+ over 140.  I got 8 other pitchers, 4 of whom were obviously better.  The other three were Cody Allen, David Robertson and Armando Benitez.  Allen is in his age 30 season, and closing for the Angels, so we can't really use him as it is too early.  Robertson was good in his early 30s, as was Benitez. 

What I would be primarily looking for in a reliever is a pitcher who can be one of your top 5-6 pitchers in the post-season.  I think that there is a reasonable chance that Giles will be in that category through age 33.  It certainly is an arguable point- whether he can be effective if he loses a click or two off his fastball is a very good question. 
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#372312) #
Its when not if Giles loses a tick or two on his fastball. That said, count me amongst those who are reluctant to trade Giles right now.

Even on bad teams there needs to be some areas of consistency and strength (think Roy Halladay towing the rubber every 5 days). Until somebody establishes themselves, I think that Giles is the cheapest and easiest way to give fans (and young players) some sense of stability.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#372314) #
The Jays will look dramatically different in 2020 with (presumably) a lineup that includes Vlad, Bichette, Biggio, Jansen, Alford, Tellez, etc, and who knows what in the rotation. They might also trade Stroman, Giles, Sanchez, and others to add more young talent. So yes it's pointless to look at today's roster to project next year, but 2020 still seems like an aggressive timetable. I think 2021 looks like a more reasonable year to start adding pieces to go for a real run. At least that would give the young talent 1-2 years to make adjustments.

Obviously almost everything will depend on how the young players perform.
mathesond - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#372316) #
"think Roy Halladay towing the rubber every 5 days"

My apologies, I assume you meant to type 'toeing' instead of 'towing', but I can't stop chuckling at the thought of Halladay dragging a pitching rubber behind him.
bpoz - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#372317) #
I love all the humor. My day is much better for it.
Nigel - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#372320) #
Thanks Dan. I get it. I agree that heís good and that good relievers arenít as fungible as some would argue. I probably diverge from you on how close to contention the team is. But, my main reason for trading him would be that, for a team like the Jays that needs help almost everywhere, heís the one asset whose market value likely significantly exceeds his utility to the team. I think what the Jays could get back has a good chance of being more valuable to the Jays than Giles. But I understand the alternative view.
Chuck - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#372322) #
Three intentional contenders (Philadelphia, Atlanta and Milwaukee) could all use Giles, as could one team that was trying to tank but unwittingly found itself to be a contender, at least early on (Seattle).
dan gordon - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#372325) #
Sure, Nigel, every player has a value, and if some team wants to seriously overpay for an asset, you'd be nuts to not do it. Hopefully, you could then acquire a replacement for the traded asset without having to overpay to the same degree. None of us has any idea what the Jays might have been offered for Giles, or any player. That's the problem with saying "trade this guy" from a fan's perspective. You don't know what the return might be. What is encouraging so far is that several of the players the team might be considering trading are healthy and performing well - Stroman, Sanchez, Shoemaker, Giles, etc, meaning the price will be higher.
dan gordon - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#372326) #
Bergen has pitched only 2 1/3 innings, but looks pretty good so far. Only 2 hits, no walks, for a WHIP of 0.86, almost identical to his spring training WHIP of 0.84. At this time last year, he was pitching for Dunedin in advanced A ball. For him to be holding his own against major league hitters after such a big jump is remarkable. He's on his way to becoming a significant asset for the Giants.
mathesond - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#372328) #
"He's on his way to becoming a significant asset for the Giants.He's on his way to becoming a significant asset for the Giants."

Amazing what can be gleaned in just 2 1/3 innings!
hypobole - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#372330) #
I saw Bergen described as a high-floor low-ceiling guy. Giants made a smart pick with him; a strike-throwing flyball pitcher with the best home park for suppressing HR's. He'll give them value and I'd be shocked if he was returned. I still don't see anything more than a good middle reliever.
hypobole - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#372331) #
Forbes released their 2019 valuations. Jays 16th at $1.5 B, between Mariners $1.575 B and Padres $1.350 B.

With revenues per fan (metro pop), Jays 28th at $28. Only Mets at $24 and Marlins $12 are lower. Mets metro population is divided by 2. San Fran is the runaway leader with a crazy $183 per fan - even if the Bay area wasn't divided by 2, they'd still be 4th. And this is a team that has had a worse record than the Jays each of the past 2 seasons.
dan gordon - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#372334) #
"Amazing what can be gleaned in just 2 1/3 innings!"

I assume you're joking. Obviously any assessment of a player is based on his career to date, including minor leagues. I was, of course, responding to scottt's post which focused on the 9 batters Bergen had faced in the majors this year.
Nigel - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#372338) #
Of course it does depend on what the offer is, but the high end closer market seems pretty settled in the past 3-4 years at a top 100 prospect position player with maybe an A ball lottery ticket kicker. If the Jays got offered that, I think they should jump at it.
scottt - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#372339) #
As a LOOGY,, Bergen is not going to face a lot of batters.
Luciano has faced 15 hitters in 2 games and if he was MLB ready, he would have been used more.
Bergen has a 91mph fastball and a 78mph curveball.
Giles will probably throw harder at 40, to put things in context.

dalimon5 - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#372341) #
"I think 2021 looks like a more reasonable year to start adding pieces to go for a real run. At least that would give the young talent 1-2 years to make adjustments.

I take issue with the idea that we can trade our top players like Stroman, Sanchez and Giles and then magically turn around in 12 months and "add pieces," that will some how be better and younger than those three.

What pieces will the Jays be adding at that point? They clearly don't value 30 year old + players past their prime. Other teams aren't trading top prospects. Free agents are thinning out as everybody is getting extended.

Everybody keeps saying we can add pieces in 2021 or 2022. Have you guys seen the projected free agents? In the off chance that Toronto outbids all other teams to acquire one of the 3-5 free agents that would be considered an "added piece," what gain would that be if they trade away guys like Stroman, Sanchez and Giles? How many potential trade targets and free agents will be better than those three?

If you can trade any of those 3 and get back a top 50 prospect, great, do it. Thing is, no team has done that in almost 2 years. Yellich on an insane team-friendly deal may get you that. The Jays should re-sign their best pitchers and try to add pieces to that. No team will trade prospects or players with higher upside than those three pitchers, period. It's 2019...if a contender has those type of young arms in their organization they will simply promote them to help the stretch run, not naively trade 6+ years of control for 1 1/4 season of Giles or Stroman, for example.
scottt - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#372342) #
The ask for Stroman was rumored to be a package equivalent than what the Yankees gave up for the Big Maple. There's no rush to throw out Giles, he's not blocking anyone.
It looks like Borucki and Thorton will push pressure on the Jays to trade a starter, if they're all healthy.
Which is a big if.

It's hard to predict the free agent market--everybody is hitting in Atlanta except a couple of guys, one of them named Josh Donaldson--but with all the extension, it does not look great.

When you draft you go for the best available player, even though nobody can tell who that is, but when you trade you have to plug the holes, not just make new ones and create logjams. That only works for the Mariners.

SK in NJ - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#372343) #
dalimon5, Shapiro has been pretty open in the past about not liking free agency. I don't think free agency is the avenue they choose to go to in order to supplement the existing talent, unless it is a 2016 Happ calibre player (shorter term). My guess is they will consolidate prospect depth to make trades. It is much cheaper in terms of prospects to add talent nowadays than it is to do the opposite. Which goes to your other point about whether it makes sense to trade Stroman and Sanchez. I've said before, after this off-season, I think you have to consider extending one or both. If a team is willing to offer something that the FO can't turn down, then that changes things, but we are at a point in the market where there might be more value in keeping your players than there is in trading them away.

The one exception in the market appears to be elite relievers. Those types are getting paid, and in theory should be able to net more in trades at the deadline. Which is why Giles should be a prime trade candidate. Replacing him with a similarly talented reliever will be difficult, but it is the one area that the Jays can afford to move someone since relievers fall of a cliff very easily and rebuilding teams should cash in on them when the opportunity is there.
hypobole - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#372344) #
Shapiro may not like Free Agency, but it's a different animal now. Elites still get monster contracts, but plugging holes with middle class players is getting much less expensive, both in term and years.
hypobole - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#372346) #
And as far as extensions go, there's been quite a few for position players and starting pitchers lately.

What relievers, closers or otherwise, have been extended?
Shoeless Joe - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#372348) #
Reliever Deadline Deals:

2018: Brad Hand for Franciso Mejia (#26 overall)
2017: Madson, Doolittle for Blake Treinen, Jesus Luzardo (#12 overall), Sheldon Nuse (#9 Oakland)
2016: Josh Fields for Jordan Alvarez (#43 overall)
2016: Andrew Miller for Clint Frazier, Justus Sheffield (#42 overall)
2016: Aroldis Chapman for Glyber Torres, Billy McKinney

I would take any of those deals for Giles, if he has a good year playoff teams always pay at the deadline.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#372349) #
Sure, if you get an AMAZING deal for Giles, take it. OTOH, it took a (somewhat devalued) Osuna to GET Giles (and Paulino and Perez, I think). But, Giles was the main piece.

For those comparing this team to the early 80s team - anyone remember '82, '83, '84, '85 when we would have given the keys to the kingdom for a reliable closer? Until we lucked into Henke? Remember the looks on the players when the bullpen coughed up the lead AGAIN in the 8th or 9th? And we were always biting our nails until the last pitch? Anyone want to repeat those years of McLaughlin, Jackson, Lamp, Caudill when the rest of the team is in place? And when you DO have a competitive team, who do you THEN trade that's worth Osuna / Giles to get a closer without taking value away from another part of the team? Or sign a Kimbrel for $16-20M + draft pick? Unless, as it turns out, we get 3-5 really good relievers/starters from the current crop in AAA - then you trade from strength, IMHO.

Again - if someone blows you away, sure. OTOH, we've got like what - $20-25M in committed salary next year? See if Giles will take a team friendly deal. At worst, he can show some of the youngsters how to be successful..
dalimon5 - Wednesday, April 10 2019 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#372350) #
Good posts. Makes sense to move Giles if you can get that top 50 prospect like Luzardo or Mejia. Otherwise extend him along with Stroman (value) and Sanchez (move to relief if necessary).
scottt - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#372351) #
Glyber Torres and Billiy McKinney?
Literally? We already have MckInney and Torres plays a position that is an area of strength.

The rest are outfielders and pitchers. A starting pitcher would force the team into another trade.
Borucki and Thornton will battle for a spot as it is.
There are still a lot of pitchers in San Diego and they are off to a hot start, so who knows?


Glevin - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 08:02 AM EDT (#372352) #
"Glyber Torres and Billiy McKinney?
Literally? We already have MckInney and Torres plays a position that is an area of strength. The rest are outfielders and pitchers. A starting pitcher would force the team into another trade."

Seriously? I would trade anyone on the team for Torres in a heartbeat. You really think the Jays pitching depth is so amazing, they shouldn't be getting a pitching prospect? The Jays are not close to contending and they need all the talent they can get. The Jays have ONE position player under long-term contract who is a proven major league caliber player (Grichuk). Their pitching despite a strong start, is extremely iffy. This is a team that needs a lot more talent to emerge or to be acquired in order to compete. You don't build around relief pitchers. The Jays should and will trade Giles if they can get a good return and if he keeps this up, I think he'd bring back a very good prospect or two.
Mike Green - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#372354) #
I would not be trading players who might be valuable commodities in 2020 for a little while yet. At this point, the players are under contract/control for 2020 include:
- Stroman, Sanchez, Thornton, Borucki, Paulino, Pearson, Murphy, Giles, Phelps, Biagini, Tepera, and several others
- Jansen, Maile, McGuire, Tellez, Gurriel Jr., Biggio, Travis, Galvis, Bichette, Guerrero Jr., Drury, McKinney, Hernandez, Alford, Grichuk

That could be a talent base of a contender if the young players develop well. Patience.

Chuck - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#372357) #
I would trade anyone on the team for Torres in a heartbeat.

Agreed. Gleyber Torres is not some nobody. He was an incredibly dear price the Cubs paid in pursuit of a World Series.

Never say never, but I cannot imagine a return like that any time soon again for a relief pitcher, especially a rental.

Mike Green - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#372359) #
Of course.  Gleyber Torres was one of the top 5 prospects in baseball at the time of the trade, and is one of the top 50 properties in baseball now.  That's a whole different kettle of fish.  Aroldis Chapman was on my Giles' comp list, but rejected because he was considerably better (as a pitcher, I rush to add).
rpriske - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#372361) #
Torres has more value than literally anyone on the 25-man roster (and arguably all but one player NOT currently on the 25-man roster... though there are real arguments there).

The idea that the Jays could get a deal as good as Torres & McKinney for Giles is fairly laughable... but they should be able to get SOMETHING of value.

Giles' trade value will likely go up as the deadline approaches and contenders get desperate. Smoak, OTOH, should be traded as soon as possible. The return will just keep going down.

hypobole - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#372362) #
How much return would there be for Justin Smoak? IMO, very little.

Who wants/needs a Justin Smoak right now? Few, if any teams - I haven't heard of any team looking to upgrade.
Chuck - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#372363) #
Who wants/needs a Justin Smoak right now?

Most everyone is set at first base. It will probably take an injury before Smoak gets moved.

I always thought Houston could be a good landing spot for him, but the Astros probably feel they are paying Gurriel too much to have him be a bench player.

uglyone - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#372364) #
I was thinking if there was any chance that we sign Stroman, thought through it and figured this FO views him similarly to Grichuk, but he would cost twice as much, so yeah there's no chance.
hypobole - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#372365) #
uo, you missed adding on the 50% "disdain penalty" to your calculations, i.e. the FO actually views Stroman as 50% better than Grichuk, but costing 100% more. :)
greenfrog - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#372366) #
At the time of the Yankees-Cubs trade, Chapman had established himself as an utterly dominant reliever who could go multiple innings and potentially put a WS contender over the top. Miller was a similarly dominant reliever when he was dealt to Cleveland. I would be surprised if teams valued Giles the same way in July 2019. But you never know. He could have a breakout season and be very much in demand at the deadline.
rpriske - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#372375) #
Question: Is Grichuk a better defensive CF than Brito? I mean, he is obviously a better PLAYER, but with them both in the lineup, shouldn't it be Grichuk in right and Brito in centre?
Chuck - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#372377) #
Weird to have a Khris Davis and a Chris Davis in the same game, but that is going on with the A's visiting Baltimore. The former is now up to 9 HR. The latter is still searching for his first hit in over 50 plate appearances.
hypobole - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#372378) #
Khris Davis has as many HR's as the entire Jays team, and more than 5 other clubs. SF, Cleveland, Pittsburg & Colorado have 8. Detroit's hit 5.

Speaking of the Giants, only one player has over 0.1 fWAR on the batting side. And he's a pitcher. MadBum's 0.2 leads the team.
scottt - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#372385) #
We already have McKinney and the consensus is that he's not good enough to be a full time player.
Torres was worth 2.9 WAR.  That's comparable to what Villar and Schoop gave to Baltimore and less than the 4.3 WAR Wendle gave to Tampa.

Personally, I'd like to see what Biggio can do at 2B. He's currently hitting .400 with 2 HR, a triple and more walks than strike outs. He doesn't profile as an All-Star, but he could be a 3 WAR guy.

We can use pitchers and outfielders, but we'll have to trade starters to make room anyway.
It's the same in the outfield, unless Alford gets hurt again. Good problems to have, but it's going to take a massive offer to get a year and a half of Giles who does not block anybody, except maybe Phelps who has 5 saves lifetime. Maybe there's a couple of great relievers in the system. Really hard to know.

The Mets have extende DeGrom who is 30. Giles is 28.
I don't really care either way.

dan gordon - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#372386) #
Jays playing the Red Sox in Boston tonight, Leafs playing the Bruins in Boston in the playoff game tonight. Who's going to score more, the Jays or the Leafs?
hypobole - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#372387) #
Jays leading the Leafs 3-1, dan.
hypobole - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#372388) #
5-1, dan
Shoeless Joe - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#372390) #
Tellez just hit the longest Hr in Fenway history, and if you have ever been the Fenway there is a certain red seat that makes doing so a very big deal.
dan gordon - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#372392) #
Leafs making a comeback, 5-3 now.
bpoz - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#372394) #
The Red Sox scored 3 unearned runs. Error in the outfield.
hypobole - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#372399) #
I think I'm taking Brito for the Vlad 40 man DFA.
scottt - Thursday, April 11 2019 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#372400) #
That's it for Giles, but maybe we can get something for Galvis.
grjas - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#372407) #
A half decent outfielder would be good.
Magpie - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#372408) #
I think I'm taking Brito for the Vlad 40 man DFA.

Socrates, you must admit, is an unusual name for an athlete. With one exception, of course:

Socrates has scored! The Greeks are going mad, the Greeks are going mad! Socrates scores, got a beautiful cross from Archimedes. The Germans are disputing it. Hegel is arguing that the reality is merely an a priori adjunct of non-naturalistic ethics, Kant via the categorical imperative is holding that ontologically it exists only in the imagination, and Marx is claiming it was offside.

Can't beat that for excitement.
Mike Green - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#372409) #
My positive impressions from last night's game- despite the loss, there was a lot to like. 

Rowdy Tellez- Aside from the blast (which is always a good sign), he looked comfortable at first base.  He's never going to be Keith Hernandez and his first step is never going to be very quick, but I think that he'll be all right with the receiving part of a first baseman's game.
Lourdes Gurriel Jr.-  Finally, he looked somewhat relaxed at the plate- I wasn't surprised with the walk.  I think that he's going to start hitting the ball like he can this weekend.
Freddy Galvis- Yes, he's been lucky during this hot streak, but even when you let the air out, the line ought to be good.  He's hitting the ball harder and at a good launch angle, and he continues to hit the ball evenly around the field.  He remains, to my eye, a solid defensive shortstop.  It wouldn't be unheard of for a 29 year old with a 7 year major league career to take a step forward.  The Jays have an option on him for 2020, and that might turn out to be very useful. 
Javy Guerra- Solid bottom-feeding acquisition.   

Socrates Brito is the kind of player who drives me nuts. Toolsy, but not playable. 
Mike Green - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 08:59 AM EDT (#372410) #
Socrates has scored! The Greeks are going mad, the Greeks are going mad! Socrates scores, got a beautiful cross from Archimedes. The Germans are disputing it. Hegel is arguing that the reality is merely an a priori adjunct of non-naturalistic ethics, Kant via the categorical imperative is holding that ontologically it exists only in the imagination, and Marx is claiming it was offside.

...and Humboldt has climbed onto the goal to admire the beauty of it all, and is busy putting all the player's statistics into his notebook.  Too bad that he's a little shy to be the colour man today.
AWeb - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#372414) #
When Brito was at the plate the last time, the Red Sox announcers were very clear that they thought you basically just had to throw a curvy pitch to him (curve or slider), and that would get you a good result (as a pitcher). Wouldn't be the first, or last, guy who would have a major league career except for not being able to handle the off-speed stuff.

The Monty Python philosopher game is one of my favourite bits they ever did. For some reason, the "Marx is claiming he's offside" always killed me, and it got funnier when I learned a bit about the actual philosophers. Maybe play that sketch every time Brito is at the plate instead of watching him flail?
bpoz - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#372415) #
I was listening on the radio. Grichuk called for the ball and Brito almost ran into him. Lucky no collision. We need healthy bodies so that their development progresses.

If poor judgement is in Brito's makeup the OF defense will not be good enough. We should be stealing hits not handing them out. I hope this was just a fluke mistake.
hypobole - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#372416) #
Rowdy hit it well, but it didn't seem all-time well. Was surprised by the 505 feet originally announced. Tried to confirm on ESPN, but it was the only HR that didn't have a distance. Now it's up at 433 ft.
Cracka - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#372430) #
I knew something was amiss with the measurement because Shulman initially wasn't even sure it had enough to get out of the park. I've watched Youtube compilations of long home runs (>480 feet) and they are all "no-doubters" and never as high in trajectory as Tellez's moon shot last night. 433 sounds about right. A 500+ foot homer is an epic, once-in-a-career, awe-inspiring feat. Tellez might be capable of this, but it didn't happen last night.
Nigel - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#372432) #
This comment isnít specifically directed at Brito because I havenít seen enough of him to know, but the longer I watch baseball the more I wonder if much weight should be given to scouting reports on defence. There seems to be a recurrent issue with scouting reports of good OF defence not lining up with actual defensive performance. With OFs, in particular, I think you get reports on tools (how fast do they run, arm strength and accuracy) not on whether they can actually play the position or not. When I read some OF prospect is a good defender, I now think said prospect has good physical tools for the job but may or may not be a good defender. Maybe thatís unfair, I donít know.
bpoz - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#372434) #
OF defense is something to be addressed regarding the Jays.

The great arm of Barfield, Devon White's skills, Rickey Henderson's and the OF Bash brother's SB prowess. These would be considered excellent defensive tools.

Pillar and Reed Johnson may not have had elite defensive tools but got the job done. 4th OFs that made good.

Proper evaluations have to be made. Sorry to be harsh but I think C Rasmus was sort of a bust.

James W - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#372435) #
I think 433 feet might be the distance where it landed, after bouncing back off the facing of the upper deck.
Michael - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#372436) #
Watching the Tellez HR on mlb video it looked like a normal HR, not an extra long one, and certainly not the longest ever at Fenway.
hypobole - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#372437) #
At least Rowdy can say "I didn't break the record, but I broke Statcast!"
Mike Green - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#372438) #
On the MLB video, it looks like it hits the facing of the second deck but the angle isn't great.  Anyways, I thought that it was a bit unusual to hit a ball that far on a pitch that low that is golfed out at that launch angle and pulled so much. 115 mph EV is not chopped liver.
Mike Green - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#372439) #
Shi Davidi reports on twitter that Ryan Borucki's recovery hit a snag, and he had a cortisone shot today.  He will resume throwing in two weeks.  Clayton Richard and David Phelps are progressing and will be ramping up.
Mike Green - Friday, April 12 2019 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#372440) #
Facing Stanek as an opener tonight and Blake Snell tomorrow, Montoyo opted to keep Tellez out of the starting lineup tonight- Gurriel is DHing and Alen Hanson is at second.  Personally, I'd have had Tellez DHing and batting second or third today. 
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