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As Butch once said to Sundance "Who are those guys?"


Lineups!

Biggio, 3b       Brosseau, 1b
Bichette, ss Arozarena, dh Gurriel, lf B.Lowe, 2b Guerrero, dh Diaz, 3b Grichuk, cf Margot, lf Hernandez, rf Renfroe, rf Shaw, 1b Adames, ss Panik, 2b Kiermaier, cf Jansen, c Zunino, c Ryu, p Glasnow, p


Gotta play it, might as well win it.
Jays and Rays: Game Two | 75 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Chuck - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#391254) #
With Guerrero at DH, that might make it more difficult to manoeuvre the R/L/R pitching coming from Cash. How do Kirk and Tellez get slotted in other than as one-and-done pinch-hitters?
John Northey - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#391256) #
Doh - missed that Shaw was at 1B. Guess they don't feel Tellez is ready for a full game yet. Sigh. Then it makes sense. Of course that means 3 dead zones in the lineup (100 or less OPS+ guys) when the team clearly needs some offense without much defensive improvement.
scottt - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#391257) #
I think the idea is to bait Cash into bringing Loup and then pinch hitting a right bat.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#391258) #
The Jays basically have one RH bat on the bench, right? Captain Kirk. (There's Villar, but I'd rather ignore his very existence.) If Kirk gets into a game, it will be to hit for Shaw or Panik in a game situation when Cash has called on Aaron Loup to face the two LH batters. The situation is only going to come up once.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#391259) #
Cash won't need to be baited. Loup made 7 appearances against the Jays in this brief season. Remarkably, he had four decisions (2-2).
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#391260) #
Fried vs Bauer actually delivered what Bieber vs Cole was supposed to provide. Fried was great, Bauer was even better. Scoreless in the eighth and the bullpens have taken over.
Shoeless Joe - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#391261) #
I like the line-up, Glasnow seems a little homer prown so hopefully they the Jays hitters can give Ryu a lead to work with.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#391262) #
Cincinnati left 3 men on in the 11th and 2 men on in the 12th. This is probably going to bite them in the behind.
grjas - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#391263) #
Yikes. Missing Shoemaker already.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#391264) #
Any inning when you allow 4 hits and another guy reaches on an error - but you just allow one run - well, the name "Houdini" comes to mind.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#391265) #
And Cincinnati leaves the bases loaded again in the 13th.
hypobole - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#391266) #
Yeah, the hysteria about Ryu not starting game 1 seems rather misplaced now.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#391267) #
And the Twins are done. That's 18 straight post-season losses. The last time they beat someone was when Johan Santana shut out the Yankees in Game One in 2004.
grjas - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#391268) #
He may not even make 3 innings.
99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#391269) #
Or two...
scottt - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#391270) #
Ryu's velocity is down and his stuff isn't there at all.
The Rays are getting hits on balls out of the strike zone.

Hard to blame Montoyo here.
It's what happens at the Trop.

Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#391271) #
Freddie Freeman makes the Reds rue all those squandered base runners.

So what do you do? Ruy's got squat today.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#391272) #
Bo, you're not helping.
scottt - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#391273) #
The kids will have something to think about tonight.
grjas - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#391274) #
Embarrassing.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#391275) #
Who said they were more scared of the Indians again?

Eephus - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#391276) #
Not a pleasant day to watch either of my teams. Sometimes baseball just wants to kick you in the unspeakables.

This s##ks.
AWeb - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#391277) #
Insert sad trombone noise here...just had a chance to check on the game.
Shoeless Joe - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#391278) #
Iím sad enough about being down 7-1 in a playoff game, but now I have to listen to Buck talk old-time baseball and watch Ross Stripling pitch. Life is hard sometimes.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#391279) #
It is perfectly OK for a baseball sportscaster to start telling stories when the game gets out of hand in the regular season.  The playoffs should be different, but I guess that it's not the same without the crowds.
grjas - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#391280) #
You guys are die-hards. I turned it off after the slam to do something less depressing. Anything.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#391281) #
This will likely be the end of the Travis Shaw era in Toronto. I've rarely, if disliked a player on the Jays but for me, he's what John Gibbons called "deadass."

I think Gibby was talking about Adam Lind, but at least Lind could hit.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#391282) #
And now for the good news- Nate Pearson is OK.   I am glad that he's getting some playoff experience. 
Shoeless Joe - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#391283) #
I had my skip the dishes wings ordered, I canít turn it off until the playoff ritual is complete. Nasty Nate is a bright spot in this gloomy game.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#391284) #
Montoyo made a horrible error in his choice of cleanup hitter! I don't know what he was thinking.
Eephus - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#391285) #
Just need to get Jansen up 5/6 more times and maybe we have a chance...
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#391286) #
Testing 1 2 3
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#391287) #
We're coming back in this one, boys
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#391288) #
Nasty Nate giving us a jolt of energy. That was impressive stuff.
Shoeless Joe - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#391289) #
How dare they warm up Anthony Bass, when the Box wants another inning from Nate.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#391290) #
Loup to the rescue?
rpriske - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#391291) #
Nice showing by Jansen. Nice showing by Pearson.

Think the Jays will get a real CF next year?
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#391292) #
Sick toss, Danny boy!
John Northey - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#391293) #
Dang - 1-0 against when I went into my daughters swim lessons, 8-2 when I got out. Ugh. Missed Pearson too which sucks as he clearly was great.

2021 will see a killer set of kid arms - Ryu plus 4 in the majors, who makes it? Roark signed as is Anderson. Stripling under contract too as is Thornton. So that is a full rotation, 1 solid 4 'meh'. Hopefully the Jays either trade for or sign a really good starter, keep Walker, and clear out some deadwood. AAA then would be Pearson, Hatch, Hťctor Pťrez, Sean Reid-Foley, Kay, Waguespack, Merryweather, and more (such as Simeon Woods Richardson).

Lots of choices of kids to either keep starting in AAA, get a job in the pen, or start in the majors. So who makes it, who do you dump, what do you do in 2021? You can't have a 10 man pen again so no more 2 inning starters like Merryweather was this year. I'm guessing Ray, Giles, Shoemaker are gone. Bass and Walker they will try to keep I think. If they don't pick up Dolis' option they are nuts.

Hitters have a few tough choices. Villar should be gone (OK, that was easy), Shaw will probably be kept to cover 3B, Panik they'll try to keep. Then comes the tough one - what to do about the Vlad/Tellez/Kirk logjam at 1B/DH? Kirk shouldn't be just a catcher with that bat, but if you have a 3rd catcher then you need to have more bench flexibility than 2 guys limited to DH/1B. Tellez is the obvious choice to trade but will he get anything? Doubt they want to move Vlad back to 3B and write off defense again. Then you have the kids who should've been in A/AA this year - Austin Martin, Jordan Groshans, Kevin Smith. Lots of options. Could have Smith in AAA, Groshans in AA, Martin A+ for 2021 but we could also see Martin in CF or SS, Groshans at SS, etc.

So much to think about. Lots of trade chips now and a clear need in the rotation, 3B, CF. But kids might take all those over on their own too. Phew.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#391294) #
Decent year at least.



But its a pretty frustrating end, especially since imo we didn't put our best lineup out there in either playoffs game. And here we are in a do or die and both Rowdy and Kirk - 2 of the best and most exciting stories of the season - are stuck on the bench while some vet retreads play in their place.

Hopefully its a season to build off.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#391295) #
Disappointing end to a fine season, but they'll learn from it. 
Glevin - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#391296) #
Decent season and lots of reasons to be optimistic. Core looks very good and is under contract for a while. Need another starter or 2 but if Pearson is healthy, may be enough. Vlad needs to take a big step forward. He was better in the second half but with his lack of defense, he can't be good, he has to be awesome. I think he has it in him. It is much easier to improve the Jays now with a few obvious holes than it was when everyone was sort of mediocre. The team is on the right path. One of the most frustrating parts of the season has been the lack of minor league numbers. Usually, it's a ton of fun to follow along with the prospects and see who is breaking out and who looks like a stud, etc...It's crazy because guys who were in A Ball when we last saw them might be ready for the majors next year (i.e. some like Groshans or SWR who likely would have done A+/AA this year) Also, I can't describe how much I hate this playoff format ("sorry 110 win team, the 162 games you played were meaningless because you couldn't beat a 79 win team in a 3 game series so you go home") so I hope the players will see how terrible it would be for them and veto it.
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#391297) #
I don't think this playoff format is continuing like this. Manfred did an interview on Sportsnet last Friday where he said he wants expanded playoffs, but fewer than 16 teams. If they do keep the 16 there's no way they can have a three game first round.

Pearson looked awesome today. I just don't think he was healthy after that first start of his. If you added Trevor Bauer to this team, a Ryu, Bauer, Pearson top three would be legit.
James W - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#391298) #
I had my skip the dishes wings ordered

RABBITY BABBITY BOO!
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#391299) #
That sure ended in a hurry, didn't it? When you get killed that quickly, it's almost... painless?

Yeah, there have to be worse ways to lose. You could play every day, for six months, just to end up with one shot at a Wild Card Game. Which you lose. In extra innings. With your best pitcher watching from the bullpen.

You could go to the World Series. You could be one out away from a championship, two runs ahead, two strikes on the batter. And.... it....all....falls.... apart....

There are worse ways. There's comfort in that, no?
Michael - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#391300) #
One thing I do really like about this playoff format (although it is more clear in the later rounds) is no off-days mid-series. Force the team to have closer to a full pitching staff and not just rely on the top 2.5 pitchers. They are doing it primarily due to being in the bubble in one location and shorter timeline to fit the season in, but I think it makes the playoffs more consistent with the regular season and is good for the game.
Kelekin - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#391301) #
I'd be a pretty big fan of doing the NFL playoff system - give the two best teams byes, then 3v6 and 4v5. Then stick to a minimum Best of 5 series (1 of and best of 3 is really absurd after a 162 game season).

I'm glad to see some steps in the right direction this year - mainly players actually getting on base and not just home runs or strikeouts. Rotation still has a long way to go. I think Walker will want to find a multi-year commitment somewhere, but re-signing Shoemaker on the assumption you'll maybe get half of a season out of him doesn't seem terrible. You're going to get more consistency from him than anyone else in the rotation sans Ryu.
scottt - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#391302) #
So, no October baseball after all.

A 3rd catcher that never starts is wasting a roster spot.
Who cares if they lose the DH once in a 160 games season?
How many times has Jansen been taken out of a game due to injury?
The big thing for Kirk is working on throwing runners.

Shaw was OK. Huge improvement over Drury.
Obviously, he's part of a platoon.

I dunno about Panik. He was there to provide a veteran presence.
The Jays need a middle infielder who can play shortstop. I don't think that's Panik.
A right handed guy who can play 3rd would make more sense.

They still need Tellez, especially when Kirk is catching.

Yesterday was close. A block made by Jansen and one better pitch from Cole.
Not sure if we'll hear from Ryu. He's got about 5 months to get in shape.

More starting pitching. Can't count on any of the young arms to be a real #2.
Although, they might have won had they thrown a bullpen game.

In a short series you will see only good pitching.
You need good pitching to compete.
Nigel - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#391303) #
An excellent year in terms of progress and lots of reasons for optimism. Hopefully management and Rogers isn't fooled into thinking that the team is close - I think that there's still lots of work to be done.
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#391304) #
I agree, Nigel. We can't forget this was a 95 loss team last year and I don't think there were many of us who realistically thought they would go far in the playoffs. I don't know why the players were supposedly keen to play Tampa. They said they were more familiar with the Rays, but it worked both ways--the Rays knew them and the Jays have a lot more weaknesses. Be careful what you wish for!
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#391305) #
And one more thing - somebody PLEASE beat the Yankees!
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#391306) #
Under Team Control Next Year

LH Ryu 34
RH Roark 34
RH Anderson 33
RH Stripling 31
RH Pearson 24

RH Cole 29
LH Borucki 27
RH Reid-Foley 25
RH Waguespack 27
RH Zeuch 25
RH Thornton 27
LH Kay 26

RH Murray 24
RH Diaz 24
RH Manoah 23
RH Castillo 22
RH Richardson 20



CF Grichuk 29
RF Teoscar 28
LF Gurriel 27
3B Shaw 31
SS Bichette 23
2B Biggio 26
1B Tellez 26
DH Guerrero 22
C Jansen 26

UT Panik 29 ----- Kirk 22
OF Davis 29 ----- Martin 21
IF Espinal 26 --- Groshans 21
C McGuire 26 ---- Moreno 21
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#391307) #
Ach forgot some bullpen guys:

RH Merryweather 29
RH Romano 28
RH Hatch 26
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#391309) #
I think that there's still lots of work to be done.

And it's pretty clear which side of the ball needs the most work. Only two AL teams scored more runs than the Jays, but only three AL teams allowed more. Some of that was a park effect. The Jays scored and allowed 11.3 runs per game in Buffalo, and 9.4 runs per game on the road. But most of it was the young hitters arriving before the young pitchers.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#391310) #
I think Panik's a free agent, One-Who-Is-Not-So-Handsome.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 30 2020 @ 11:22 PM EDT (#391311) #
Ah yes I misread B-R. He's a free agent indeed.

I guess I "forgot" we have control of Fisher still, too, so slide him in there.
Nigel - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#391312) #
Magpie's point about the pitching needing the most work is obviously true but I'm still not convinced that the line-up doesn't need some substantial assistance (once fielding and baserunning are accounted for). In 2019 the top 8 teams in baseball (based on record) all had 5 or more position players who were above average players (using 2.5 WAR as the cutoff for that). How many Jays would you book for that threshold in 2021? I count two - Biggio and Bichette. The team really needs a CF and a 3B.
hypobole - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 12:29 AM EDT (#391313) #
Chase Anderson has a $9.5 million salary next year or a $500 K buyout. He'll get the buyout. One of the kids can pitch as badly as he did for a lot less money.

Trevor Bauer is the FA to target. He wants to pitch every 4 days. Ryu should be OK with that and any kids taking a rotation spot should be happy just starting in the majors. Roark would probably grouse, but unless he regains velocity or figures out a way to pitch effectively with his diminished velocity, he may not even have a rotation spot.

They could/should trade one of the outfielders (maybe for an upgrade at 3B) and stick Davis in CF next year.
uglyone - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#391314) #
Tbh im pretty sure they see value in Anderson on a 1yr 9.5m deal. I expect they'll pick up that option without thinking too hard about it.
Michael - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 04:44 AM EDT (#391315) #
Yeah, Anderson wasn't worth his salary this year, but every previous year he was at least worth $9.5 M, and his 2017 was very valuable. But even if you just slot him in for the average of the past 3 years (so missing his best year and including this negative year), you'd basically be near his salary for worth.

This year was short season and weird start and lots of pitching was impacted. His component K/rate and BB/rate were actually better than usual, it was his HR/rate and H/allowed rate that was so much worse. A lot of that might just be the small sample size.

I mean if the Jays know something (like he's nursing an injury and has lost it), then they should do the buy out, but otherwise I think we don't have a deep enough rotation/staff to avoid paying a ~1 WAR pitcher (with possible upside: 4.3 WAR in 2017, 1.8 WAR in 2019) about the market cost of 1 WAR.
Jonny German - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 06:18 AM EDT (#391316) #
I really hope you guys are wrong about the Jays keeping Anderson. They've got 3 guys basically set for next year's rotation in Ryu, Pearson, and Roark. They've got 2 more that look a lot like Anderson in terms of upside in Stripling and Thornton. And they've got some kids that could conceivably be better than Anderson in Hatch, Kay, and Zeuch.

I want the Jays to add pitching but the time has passed for "raise the floor" types.
Jonny German - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 06:20 AM EDT (#391317) #
In 2019 the top 8 teams in baseball (based on record) all had 5 or more position players who were above average players (using 2.5 WAR as the cutoff for that). How many Jays would you book for that threshold in 2021? I count two - Biggio and Bichette.

Hernandez and Gurriel also cleared that threshhold this year - pro-rated they were at 3.5 and 2.7 bWAR, or if you prefer 4.3 and 3.2 fWAR.

Personally, I'm also happy with the catchers and with Vladdy and Rowdy being the primary guys for 1B and DH. The glaringly obvious places to upgrade are third base and the bench. CF is a little trickier as Grichuk is just good enough to live with and just bad enough to be difficult to move, given his contract.
Jonny German - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 06:23 AM EDT (#391318) #
I think Walker will want to find a multi-year commitment somewhere, but re-signing Shoemaker on the assumption you'll maybe get half of a season out of him doesn't seem terrible.

Aren't the Jays in a good position to give Walker that multi-year comitment? In my mind he's the 3rd-best starter on the market, and it's hard to imagine #2 Stroman coming back to Toronto.
scottt - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 07:41 AM EDT (#391320) #
Shoemaker and Walker are 2 guys who haven't been healthy much.
You can probably offer 3 years to Shoe or Walker or a single year to Bauer for the same money and you probably get more starts out of Bauer.

I'd be shocked, if they sign Bauer.

The Yankees had no problem scoring in Cleveland.
I hope the Rays roll over them.

Padres and Reds facing elimination today.

rpriske - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 08:01 AM EDT (#391322) #
Cheering for the Yankees for one round as they are facing one of the few teams more unlikeable.

Signing Walker should my the #1 priority between now and free agency filings. Losing him means they have to find a new #2 and that is hard to do.
krose - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#391333) #
Walker, Shoemaker and Ray all seem reasonable possibilities as additions to the starting rotation for next year. I might prefer Ray.

xFIP 2017. 18. 19. 20
Walker 4.34 4.45 5.19 4.82
Ray 3.49. 3.77. 3.76. 5.84

Ray had a 2.79 xFIP for the Jays. (SSS recognizes)
99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#391346) #
The Jays have a bunch of financial flexibility, so I donít really see the downside of picking up Andersonís option and seeing if they can leverage it into a production season.

I only donít think we can pencil Thornton into the rotation, considering heís coming off minor elbow surgery.

And, maybe Iím too much of an optimist, but I just assumed the Jays could trade Roark if they sign a better option. I think he has a long enough track record that someone would be willing to take a chance. If we have to eat some cash, thatís fine because it that scenario heís better replaced with a better option.

I also feel like Grichuk is tradeable, should we find a better CF option. Not sure what the surplus value is on his contract after this year, but I donít imagine itís negative
scottt - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#391352) #
And the Reds are out. That's about it for their window I think. Pretty sad.

Oakland is trailing.

scottt - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#391353) #
I can't find any reason to dislike the Rays.

The Jays traded Happ for Drury and McKinney on June 28 2018 and the Yankees purchased Urshela from the Jays on August 8 2018. They have him under control for 3 more years.

You like that?

scottt - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#391368) #
Oakland on top now.
Super ugly game from both sides.

hypobole - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#391373) #
17 pitchers used between the 2 teams. Is that a playoff record for a 9 inning game?
scottt - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#391374) #
I always taught the White Sox had not added enough pitching.

Padres are down 4-0.  A quick exit here would hurt.

scottt - Thursday, October 01 2020 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#391375) #
Make that thought.
Jays and Rays: Game Two | 75 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.