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These guys again.


The story so far:

The Jays ventured into Fenway and split a pair of games with the Red Sox back in April. Xander Bogaerts hit a three-run HR off Hyun-Jin Ryu in the opener, which was all the support Eduardo Rodriguez would require as the Sox won 4-2. The Jays bounced back to defeat Garrett Richards 6-3 the next night behind seven different pitchers (it was a Bullpen Day).

The Sox came down to Dunedin in May, and Ryu pitched his best game of the season, seven innings of four-hitter as the Jays beat Rodriguez 8-0. But the Sox kicked Ross Stripling around for five first inning runs the next day en route to a 7-3 win, with Verdugo, Martinez, and Hernandez all going deep. And in the finale, they hung one of the year's more deflating losses on the Jays. Given a 2-0 lead, Steven Matz instantly surrendered a five spot to put the Jays down 5-2. But he held the line there, and Jays crawled back into the game, tied it up, and eventually took a 7-5 lead into the ninth inning. But Rafael Dolis gave up a pair of hits, an RBI groundout and a killer two-run homer from J.D. Martinez. And the rest of the bullpen said - "You thought that was bad? Come with us to Tampa Bay and see what's possible!"

And there was much wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

One of the good things about playing in Fenway is the left field wall is so close that Lourdes Gurriel can just stand on the warning track. As we've seen, he's elite when it comes to throwing the ball. He's adequate enough coming in on the ball or ranging to his side. Alas, he often resembles a confused Little Leaguer when he's required to go back on the ball. So I'd like to see him just stand on the warning track all weekend. Please. Whatever you do, don't give Charlie an excuse to write the name "Jonathan Davis" on a lineup card. I've got a fairly decent TV now, and it will probably last longer if I'm not throwing things at it.

The Red Sox were the AL East's first place team on both occasions when the Jays encountered them before. Not any more. It's not so much that they've slipped into second place as that Tampa Bay has gone sprinting past them. The Sox are still playing .600 ball. They've still got mainly a three man offense (Martinez, Bogaerts, Devers) but those three guys have been so good that only the Astros score more runs. Eduardo Rodriguez is still scuffling, but the rest of the rotation has been much better than anticipated. The bullpen is depressingly good, and depressingly deep.

The Red Sox will miss the Jays' best starter and the Jays will miss the Red Sox worst starter. Hey, no one said it was supposed to be easy.

Matchups!

Fri 11 June - Stripling (2-3, 4.71) vs Richards (4-4, 3.88)
Sat 12 June - Matz (6-3, 4.50) vs Pivetta (6-1, 3.78)
Sun 13 June - Ray (3-2, 3.36) vs Perez (4-3, 3.88)
Mon 14 June - Manoah (1-0, 3.14) vs Eovaldi (7-3, 4.11)


Blue Jays at Boston, June 11-14 | 326 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#399692) #
Win three (or more).
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#399694) #
I figure I should be pleased if they can split the four games. But for some reason, that makes me think of the famous exchange between Nick Nurse and Kawhi Leonard before the Raptors went to California for games three and four after splitting the first two in Toronto. Nurse reminded his charges that they just needed a split and Leonard answered "Screw that, let's get 'em both." (He used a more earthy word than "screw.")

Three out of four! Sweep! Why not!
soupman - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#399699) #
I am the wrong vintage to recall - but am I correct to remember that Cito used to mess with the rotation to line up better against the Clemens-BoSox? Or was that the kind of baseless speculation from the chattering classes like McCowan?
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#399701) #
It's not something I remember Gaston doing. I think he generally preferred to keep turning over his five starters, but I'll have a look.

I do clearly remember John Gibbons either bumping his fifth starter or pushing every one back a day so he could keep Roy Halladay on his regular rest.
Nigel - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#399703) #
I can't remember if Gaston did this, but Gibbons, on several occasions, organized his starters coming out of the All Star break to best line up against his near term AL East opponents
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#399704) #
Biggio back in and Espinal down. Hopefully Biggio can continue to improve from his early season struggles, we really need his bat to provide that second leadoff guy at the bottom of the lineup.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#399705) #
I've just taken a quick peek at the starting rotations from 1989-1993 and it appears that Gaston was trying really hard to just roll over the same five pitchers. The problem he had was that the back end of his rotation was almost always in a state of flux and so he was constantly trying out different guys. (This while they were finishing first four times in five years.) But there was always a problem finding five guys, except for the second half of 1991 when he happily rolled with Key, Guzman, Stottlemyre, Wells, Candiotti. The rest of the time he was generally scrambling to find his fifth starter. It wasn't a matter of health - the one time he lost a key starter to injury was 1991 and Juan Guzman took Stieb's spot and did very nicely indeed.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#399707) #
Geez. I think Vladdy just hurt the wall.
92-93 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#399708) #
The Jays will be in good shape if they can go 4-3 vs. BOS/NYY. Their next 12 games after that are against BAL/MIA/BAL/SEA.

greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#399709) #
Itís disappointing to be getting 600-700 OPS production from the Jays DH and LF players. That was a lost opportunity in the first inning (bases loaded, one out, 3-0 count on TellezÖand no additional runs scored).
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#399710) #
Baseball in a pinball machine.

(And no Buck, that was not good baserunning by Verdugo. It is better to be lucky than good...)
Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#399711) #
THANK you, Eephus. That was amongst the most assanine things I've heard Buck say in recent memory (admittedly a very short window for me). Did he do well to bust it out of the box? Yes. Did he do well to get caught midway between 1st and 2nd with the play right in front of him? No. No, that was not a good piece of baserunning.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#399712) #
Boba Chett, RBI hunter.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#399713) #
Dave Bush is their pitching coach?

I feel old.
92-93 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#399714) #
Eric Hinske got fired yesterday, and Shea Hillenbrand was on a podcast. No mention of whether this ship is sinking.

Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#399715) #
As it turns out, Buck did hit Terry Forster (.400) and Frank Viola (.394) quite a bit better than he hit everybody else.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#399716) #
Dave Bush is their pitching coach?

I wonder what Ty Taubenheim is up to these days...


Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#399717) #
Guerrero Jr. treating the Green Monster like a teen shooting pucks through a garage door.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#399718) #
deGrom ERA down to 0.57 after five scoreless innings tonight (1 hit, 0 walks, 8 strikeouts).
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#399719) #
I may loathe the Red Sox with passion, but that laundry cart HR celebration is darn hilarious.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#399720) #
deGrom ERA down to 0.57 after five scoreless innings tonight

And he's hitting .400 (10-25) with 5 RBIs, giving him more hits and RBIs than Toronto's fourth outfielder.

Shohei who?
hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#399721) #
Been wait and see with Stripling, but this is his 4th really solid game in a row. I'm gonna have to hop the "believe" bus at some point, I guess, maybe?
Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#399722) #
That's 3 balls hit over 110mph and a walk for Vlad so far.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#399723) #
Didnít put a ding on the wall with that one. Hooo boy
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#399724) #
Can we just skip the formalities and give Vlad the MVP award now?
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#399725) #
5-2 lead for the Jays, couple of runners on for Boston in game 1 of an important series...I know what to do. Bring in Chatwood!
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#399726) #
Honestly, I've seen enough. I'm done with Montoyo as a manager.
Super Bluto - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#399727) #
Chatwood's confidence is drained. You can see it on his face.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#399728) #
Getting some Kerry Ligtenberg vibes from Chatwood. You've gotta pull him now.
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#399729) #
Is he going to bring in Romano in the 6th here? I would have left Stripling in but I don't see much options that much better.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#399730) #
The NESN broadcast is taking a lot of pleasure in this.

I swear I saw Montoyo say "I'm going to bench the *bleeper*
Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#399731) #
He needs more Spider Tack.
Polite Nate - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#399732) #
Chatwood felt like he was coming back around before tonight, so I didn't mind going to him to get 1 out with a three run lead though I will admit to holding my breath. Stripling was starting to get hit hard. But after tonight, woof, he either needs a crappy-arm-strain IL stint or firmly down the leverage ladder until he has multiple clean outings in a row.
bpoz - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#399733) #
Montoyo has to make a decision on Chatwood. How much longer?
Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#399734) #
In case anyone's wondering, that's just a joke about how abruptly Chatwood's command abandoned him in the vicinity of the minor league suspensions. I know his 'command' history, so I don't actually suspect he's a Tacker.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#399735) #
Chatwood did look very sharp last time out, as if he'd fixed whatever was wrong. Castro probably wasn't have been available, and perhaps not Payamps either. No way I would want Carl Edwards in a game situation. Which leaves Thornton, I guess.
Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#399736) #
Oh, I think we're in Grade 3 Crappy Arm Tear territory.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#399737) #
But it wasn't just one out with a three-run lead. It was one out with a three-run lead with runners at first and third, in the sixth inning of an important series in Boston, a couple of weeks after Chatwood had trashed a key game against another division rival (Tampa) through a bout of wildness of historic proportions.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#399738) #
I suspect Montoyo was being loyal to a guy who until a few weeks ago, had been one of his best relievers... trying to see if he can continue slowly getting back on track. At least he pulled him in the last possible moment on this occasion.


Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#399739) #
But yeah, after the last two appearances I thought he had worked his way through it, too, so I didn't mind the call. Boy did it turn quick and decisively, though.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#399740) #
The more maddening thing about this game thus far has been the sense were it played in any other ballpark, ever (like in the history of baseball), the Blue Jays probably have about 12 runs by now.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#399741) #
At least he pulled him in the last possible moment on this occasion.

Actually, Montoyo pulled him at the first possible moment. Chatwood had to face three batters.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#399742) #
I was just about to point out that this game should be 10-4 with the way the Jays have been scalding the ball all over Fenway.

Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#399743) #
Chatwood had to face three batters.

Precisely what makes me nervous with Edwards Jr. coming in here...


Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#399744) #
Last time we picked up an Atlanta reliever off waivers mid season was Jason Grilli in 2016. Worked out OK, I guess.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#399745) #
Edwards. Well, there are two bases open which you want when your pitcher allows more walks than hits.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#399746) #
Montoyo is betting on Renfroe's pronounced L/R splits here (a difference of over 250 points of OPS).
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#399747) #
Gotta love the anti-jinx.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#399748) #
We need middle relief...what are Quantrill and Plesac doing these days?

hypobole - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#399749) #
Don't have to face 3 batters if you finish an inning.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#399750) #
what are Quantrill and Plesac doing these days?

Hell, I'd be willing to check in with Joey McLaughlin.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#399751) #
Hopefully things will be a bit better when Springer returns and the lineup gets deeper. Having a better offense may result in less pressure on the pitching staff.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#399752) #
All this and haven't had the Rafael Dolis experience yet tonight!
Spifficus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#399753) #
I, too, wonder what Ty Taubenheim is up to these days.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#399754) #
Anyone have Billy Kochís cell phone number?
krose - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#399755) #
Jays have to make some improvements to stay with the big boys. Obviously the bullpen is priority one.
krose - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#399756) #
Anyone else feeling a lack of confidence heading into the bottom of the Jays lineup? Priority two?
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#399757) #
Well, Edwards didn't walk anyone...

Sigh.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#399758) #
2000 Billy Koch was something else.

Holy smokes. What a terrible call that is.

I believe Bauxite Chuck would say "Carrapazza is Italian for crapola."
Polite Nate - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#399759) #
Plays like that are why I can never get worked up about the replay challenge occasionally getting a close play wrong. The system's worth it just to get these things overturned.
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#399760) #
This lineup is still rather young and seems to crumble under pressure situations. 14-15 hits and only five runs is pretty sad. Same thing sunk them against the Rays when they swung for the fences in multiple walk off innings.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#399761) #
I am so tired of the shots of Springer sitting in the dugout. Why are they rubbing it in?
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#399762) #
Hatch worked two scoreless innings tonight, but he threw 51 pitches after throwing 29 his previous outing.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#399763) #
All this and haven't had the Rafael Dolis experience yet tonight!

Here you go.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#399764) #
At least they made it quick
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#399765) #
Sounds about right.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#399766) #
Itís too bad the Jays werenít quite able to land Michael Brantley. He would have been a good corner OF/DH to have on this roster.

Now one game over .500.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#399767) #
Rough part of the schedule blah blah blah aside... this team needs more than one good healthy reliever and damn soon. Clearly they can't outhit all their problems (few can).
krose - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#399768) #
Yah! Too many things can go wrong with this Jays team. Bullpen, hitting at the bottom and defence. But starting pitching and the top of the lineup are looking good.
greenfrog - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#399769) #
These types of games, where the Jays have a prime opportunity to crush the opposing starter in the first inning but fail to capitalize, often seem to end badly for them.
Eephus - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#399770) #
The Red Sox, also maybe, possibly, kinda being good? Truly this is the dark, dark universe.
Kasi - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#399771) #
20 men on base, 5 runs pretty much sunk them. Jays just are not very good right now in high leverage situations. I need to look up the stats but this team seems to run up the score either early or when up or down a bunch, but out them in close and tight situations and they struggle badly.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#399772) #
I think there was a moment - maybe last September - when I actually noted that the Blue Jays had nine - yes, nine - relief pitchers, all of whom were pitching well. It was such a strange thing, as if nine relief pitchers wasn't already strange enough.

Did that even happen? Was it real?
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#399773) #
I'm not hanging anything on the offense. You score five, you should win. You give up six, you should lose.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#399774) #
Funny thing is, they cut Liriano after a great spring to make room for Kirk. I bet they'd like that one back.
BlueJayWay - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#399776) #
That was something.
Outhit them 16-8, 19 baserunners in 9 innings. 25 balls hit at 95+ mph (most in any game by any team this year). It's baffling they only scored 5 runs in that game.

Even with that they still had a 5-1 lead in the 6th, and 5-4 in the 8th. Romano wasn't available for some reason and no one else can get any outs.
It's really too bad because the starting pitching is looking pretty solid.
pooks137 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#399777) #
Liriano was cut because they decided to go with Tim Mayza as the lefty in the pen instead because they liked his ST coming back from injury. Mayza also needed to be put back on the 40-man, so they didn't have much extra room.

Kirk was already on the 40-man from his debut last year.
Magpie - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:27 PM EDT (#399778) #
Yup, Liriano had a good spring but Mayza's was even better, and he's nine years younger.

But Francisco's still out there somewhere...
dalimon5 - Friday, June 11 2021 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#399779) #
How is this rotation looking next year with no Ray or Matz and still no bullpen?
soupman - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:11 AM EDT (#399780) #
Magpie: Thanks for checking into that!
That makes sense and accords with my assumptions about both managers.
92-93 - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:56 AM EDT (#399781) #
At some point when your bullpen is struggling you have to try and get a little more out of your starters. There have been a few pulls lately where it seemed like the starter had some more left in the tank, and it would help the team immensely if they could squeeze another 2-3 outs from the rotation.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 05:51 AM EDT (#399782) #
The thing I really didn't like was Gurriel hammering the first pitch he sees in the ground when Richards looked like he was going to be out of the game early. Stop helping the other team.

Every year the Yankees lose a bunch of pitchers to the rule 5 draft and I don't remember one that wasn't returned.
Whitlock is a starter who had an ERA of 3.07 in AA in 2019 at 23. MLB had him at 27th in the Yankees system at the end of that year.
Boston seems to get all the breaks this year.

Mike D - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:23 AM EDT (#399783) #
Iíd be curious about what the Nats would want for our old friend Daniel Hudson as a rental.

The Marlins have some solid relievers that arenít young enough to be inordinately valuable to them (Bleier, Floro, Garcia).
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#399785) #
Stripling was dazzling the hitters with 92mph fastballs straight down the pipe. Then eventually, the enchantment seemed to waiver and I can't blame Montoyo for going to the pen even though the pitch count was low. Chatwood would not have been my choice though.

I am always puzzled that so many pitchers can't throw a high fastball for a strike. Often it's either closer to the middle of the strizezone or a couple of feet over it.

The Jays seemed to have a good idea  of what to throw to Devers and Martinez. Less so with Dalbec.
Chuck - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#399789) #
The Jays played 60 games in 2020 and have now played 61 in 2021, allowing for a then-and-now comparison of a comparable number of at-bats. Here are the OPS+ splits. Note that the team as a whole has basically replicated their offense from last season.

Team 109/109
Jansen 85/46
Guerrero 116/202
Bichette 128/112
Biggio 123/77
Gurriel 139/82
Grichuk 115/122
Hernandez 148/121
Tellez 140/66

Grichuk's two 60-game stretches look more similar than I would have guessed.

Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#399791) #
Chatwood would not have been my choice

Can't say I blame you. I feel your pain! But who? Sixth inning, runners on base, tying run at the plate? This is Chatwood's job on the team.

Mayza is the only other reliever in the pen likely to be used if there are runners on base. But Mayza is really not your best option in that situation. He's really not - Mayza is the only guy in the pen who gives up more than a hit per inning. Plus, while Chatwood had just had an awful week, Mayza had just had an awful month.

Thornton? He doesn't come in with runners on base, or in the middle of an inning. It's not how he's used. He's always been a starter and he always gets a fresh inning when he comes into a game.

Dolis and Romano pitch later in the game, not the sixth inning. Turns out Romano wasn't available anyway.

Castro pitched the previous two days, Payamps threw 25 pitches the day before, both were probably unavailable.

Edwards was an effective reliever from 2016-18, but he's got an ERA of 8.00 over the last three years.

Beasley has pitched 7 innings in the majors.

This is Chatwood's job on the team. Well, maybe not anymore, and surely today it's going to be Castro's job, or maybe Payamps. Which shouldn't fill anyone's soul with confidence either.

Reinforcements are obviously required. Hatch and Pearson are both in the minors preparing for a starter's workload. But unless Manoah falls on his face - could happen - there isn't a spot open in the rotation for them to take. Both could go into the pen instead, I guess. But let's not forget that both of them have less than 30 IP in the majors. It's not like either has proved anything, like either can be counted on to get the team out of this mess.

I'm sure Atkins is looking for options, but I'm also damn sure 29 GMs are looking on like hungry vultures hoping to extract something juicy and delicious in the Jays' Hour of Need. Bad times are upon us.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#399792) #
Note that the team as a whole has basically replicated their offense from last season.

And that's despite almost the entire lineup falling off significantly, the exceptions being Grichuk (somewhat better) and Guerrero (ascending to a new plane of existence.)

Of course, the other factor is replacing Travis Shaw (96 OPS+) with Marcus Semien (139).
hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#399793) #
"I'd be curious about what the Nats would want for our old friend Daniel Hudson as a rental."

I dunno what they would want, but he'd fit right in with most of the Jays relief corps. Hudson just got IL'd with elbow inflammation.
John Northey - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#399794) #
Chuck - nice to see the two year comparison. So 121 games, how are they doing overall? In a normal year that'd put us in mid August. OPS+ figures combined 2020/21
Jansen: 67; Guerrero: 159; Semien: 117 (90/139); Bo: 117; Biggio: 106; Gurriel: 111; Grichuk: 119; Hernandez: 135; Tellez: 101;Panik: 88 (80/99); McGuire: 9 (-41/52)

I added a few I was curious about. Semien obviously wasn't here last year (Oakland). Shaw was who is a combined 82 (96/69 in Milwaukee now). Obviously Tellez's strong 2020 has been negated by his poor 2021, resulting in a league average OPS+ which isn't nearly good enough for a 1B/DH - he needs to be at 120+ to be of value. McGuire is ugly at 9 but at least he is positive now between the two years. Biggio about where most would expect him long term - a league average hitter (heavy on OBP) Found it funny that Bo and Semien would match up exactly.

So the big question is what do the Jays do now? 3B is a concern on offense & defense, the pen is by far the #1 concern right now, the rotation has been solid lately but is Manoah going to get a second win (3 starts, 1 great, 1 good, 1 bad)? Is Stripling finally for real (4 games, 22 2/3 IP 2.38 ERA 16 H 6 BB 20 SO)? Matz has slumped lately (last 9 starts 5.72 ERA after a 1.47 his first 3) but shows signs of getting out of it (3.94 ERA last 3 starts, despite a 4 1/3 IP game last time with 4 runs). I think Matz would be helped most by a stronger pen - then he can be pulled as soon as he shows any signs of weakness. Ray appears to be the guy people dreamed he could be all his career but the team is just 5-6 in his starts. Ryu is Ryu - solid #1. Has his bad games now and then but always recovers quickly. Took 13 starters to find a starting 5 but for now things look good. Pearson working his way back as is Hatch. Right now both would look good in the pen as #2's to Manoah and Matz I think. Stripling and Ryu and Ray all want the ball in the 7th and later.

So what help is there? Hatch & Pearson, Connor Overton is doing well in AAA (0.84 ERA in 21 1/3 IP 3 BB 22 SO) and couldn't be worse than what we've seen lately I'd think. Might he be the surprise this team needs this year to help the pen?
greenfrog - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#399795) #
Trades in mid-June are pretty rare. Probably the team is going to have to work through their current situation with what they have (while staying open to a trade or waiver wire pickup if a good opportunity arises).

If they end up being a seller at the deadline, thatís OK. It happens. In that case I would make Semien, Ryu, Ray, Matz, and the bullpen arms available. Ryu is going to get injured or decline eventually. If they can trade him for a couple of good prospects (a Stroman-calibre trade), it might be worth making that move.

This would not necessarily mean capitulation for 2022. With the right moves, the team could still be good in 2022 and also strengthen its farm system.
hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#399796) #
The last comment made me think of another Nats reliever.

As a group, fans are very judgemental. A sizeable number often feel they are smarter than teams FO's. And often fans are correct, despite the fact they are rarely actually smarter, simply because of variability in results that occur with players.

And some teams do make bad decisions at times. Very rarely, if ever, do all teams make the same bad decision, though.

Brad Hand was well thought of. He was available to any team for $10 million, but passed through waivers. Many fans were shocked or upset their team let him slide.

Barring a big resurgence, teams were correct. Both bWAR and fWAR have him at -0.1, so around replacement level.

On the bright side for the Jays, he should be available for minimal cost other than salary. Replacement level is probably better than more than a few of our relievers who need replacing.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#399797) #
Bichette 128/112

Last year Bo produced 1.1 bWAR in 29 games and this year 2.0 bWAR in 60 games.

Biggio 123/77

In this case, we're going from 59 games and 2.0 bWAR to 40 games and 0 bWAR. 

Gurriel 139/82
57 games 1.2 bWAR to 55 games 0.2 bWAR.

Grichuk 115/122
55 games 0.4 bWAR to 60 games 1.2 bWAR.

Hernandez 148/121
50 games 1.5 bWAR to 44 games 1.0 bWAR.

Tellez 140/66
35 games 0.6 bWAR to 43 games -0.7 bWAR.
 
Not quite as bad as Biggio.

Lindor from 60 games 1.2 bWAR to 53 games 1.2 bWAR. Not as bad as it looks. Just pricey. Rosario in Cleveland is at 0.7 bWAR.

Kim in SF, 52 games, 1.1 bWAR.

Gotta love positional value.
Chuck - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#399798) #
Gotta love positional value.

Bear in mind that "positional value" means two things.

  1. Offensively, shortstops are measured against a low bar replacement level hitter.

  2. Defensively, shortstops have the opportunity, by virtue of their position, to contribute a great deal defensively (and contrarily, hurt the term a great deal if they are poor). Though the sample is small, both Kim and Lindor rank among the very best defensively in the NL. They don't have to hit much to contribute, though of course the Mets would like Lindor to hit a whole lot more to justify the paycheque.
John Northey - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#399800) #
Kim the Jays might regret not signing now, but his 73 OPS+ suggests they don't mind that much. 

Right now for the pen Richard Rodriguez looks like the best trade option - with Pittsburgh, age 31, not a free agent until after 2023, just 1.1 BB/9 vs 7.0 K/9 (last year was 13.1 K/9 vs 1.9 BB/9).  Given the Pirates aren't winning anytime soon they might be interested in a trade using only minor leaguers in return.  They have a few others doing well by ERA but thanks to a low BABIP that looks unsustainable.  Still, at least they are a target.

David Robertson pitched well in the Olympic qualifiers for the USA , so he might be worth pursuing - would only cost minimal cash to get I'd figure.  I'd figure a ML contract would get him to walk from the Olympic team pretty quickly.  Ex-Jay John Axford did OK for team Canada so if he'd come to the AAA team and do a few games first I'd sign him.  The pen is such a mess that both guys would be smart additions right now.  Heck, anyone who can throw a strike and not give up a home run would be useful.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#399801) #
Cole to the 60IL. Beasley down.
Tayler Saucedo selected.
He's 28 and was a starter in that strong Fisher Cats team.
He's pitched 16+ innings in Buffalo, ERA 2.2.
Should give them another lefty.

jerjapan - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#399803) #
I was just logging on to post how we should consider a fringe reliever from Buffalo when scottt posted the news about Saucedo.  My pick would have been another lefty, Kirby Snead, but Saucedo is an org guy who has improved since moving to the pen full time.  He's a big guy who can pitch longer outings if required, and the pen needs some length. 

Snead would be better in high leverage situations to my mind, more a classic one inning guy, but we need help everywhere, and I assume the org would be more okay with designating Saucedo than Snead if the roster spot is needed.  Saucedo has limited the walks this year and his 11.6 Ks per 9 is the first time he's cracked that threshold.   Also, I love seeing the org guy getting the call - kid was drafted in 2015. 

John Northey mentioned Connor Overton above, and he's another name I'd consider if Saucedo struggles. 
tercet - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#399804) #
Does anyone know if Saucedo's stuff played up this year? I think he was a low/mid 90s guy before this year.
Snead is just a loggy, trust me you want nothing to do with him in baseball or real-life considering his online social posts.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#399805) #
Oh good, Vic Carrpazza's got the plate today.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#399806) #
It's just a thing I notice, but Rowdy's swing seems mighty long this season.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#399807) #
I've also decided I'm watching the opposing teams broadcast for the rest of the season.
Early observation: This is early 90's Jays blasphemy, but I prefer Dennis Eckersley as a broadcaster to Buck Martinez of the last few years. Any day.
uglyone - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#399808) #

#BlueJays to lead the AL in HR, RBI, and AVG this late in a season:

1) Vladimir Guerrero Jr.

That's the list. pic.twitter.com/DvuepS6oDM

— Toronto Blue Jays (@BlueJays) June 12, 2021
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#399809) #
Be a shame to waste an MVP season. Mr. Atkins, the future is now. Time to cash in some of those prospects for some
big league arms, ASAP.
AWeb - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#399810) #
I don't think I've been properly appreciating this season by Guerrero. When Delgado (in 2000) had a comparable season (for an entire season, who knows where Vlad's level lies from here), he wasn't even the league leader in OPS, or any of the triple crown stats. 8 guys in the AL alone had an OPS over 1.000, plus 10 more in the NL. Right now there are 4 guys in MLB over 1.000, it's a different playing environment, and he's leading in the triple crown stats, also OBP/SLG. Now a walk and  a steal, so he's obviously going for the SB crown too.;)
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#399811) #
2000 was the steroid era, so Delgado was competing against garishly pumped up versions of Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, etc. The advantage was with the hitters for sure, opposite of today's game.
uglyone - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#399812) #
"I don't think I've been properly appreciating this season by Guerrero. "

I don't think you're alone there.

Vladdy is doing crazy things here at age 22. There should be more talk about it imo.
Hodgie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#399813) #
I've been thinking about the earlier conversation about what improvements can you realistically expect from Valddy going forward. Considering his power and patience combination and the fact that physical fitness only became a high priority this last offseason, call me crazy but I don't need to squint to see some steroid-Bonds-like seasons in his future. He is leading MLB with 20 HRs despite an average launch angle of 8 degrees!
jerjapan - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#399814) #
Hey tercet, I'm not on social media much, what's the issue with Snead?  Not sure that he's just a loogy, tbh, he seems like he can get righties out, but I definitely prefer players who I can get behind as people. 

I'm curious about Saucedo's stuff too ... is there a good place online to see minor league velocity? 

6-0 lead, this would be a good game to get Saucedo into.  I hope he's not just here to sit on the bench.  At this point, I don't think it should be Castro coming in.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#399815) #
Despite all the talks about trying to get as many outs as possible from the starter, it's not the 1 run in the 8th and in the 9th that killed them last night. It's the 3 runs in the 6th.

Relievers who throw hard will give up homeruns, but maybe not 5 over 4 innings.

greenfrog - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#399816) #
Petey, I'm not sure the Jays can even acquire quality arms right now, even if they wanted to. Unless you want to swap someone like Orelvis Martinez for a setup man.

With the number of pitchers suffering injuries this year, I think pitching is going to cost a lot in prospects this summer.

There is no reason Guerrero Jr. can't perform at this level for at least the next half-dozen seasons. I would prefer not to mortgage the future and go all-in for one season. In fact, if need be, I would rather see the Jays be a productive seller and miss the playoffs this season, then have a stacked roster and farm system for the next four or five seasons.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#399817) #
To be clear, I'm not saying the Jays should throw in the towel at this point. They have a good team that could contend for a postseason spot. My guess is that the team will try to make a couple of strategic additions at the deadline, and that's OK. But I think they should be open to selling if it's appropriate -- for example, if there are three .600 teams to pass in the division and the Jays are at .500 or below.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#399819) #
Wow, was that bad baserunning by Devers.
Chuck - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#399820) #
Devers just made a little league gaffe.
92-93 - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#399821) #
It's ridiculous to keep using Romano in 5 run games just because he got hot. The dude was too sore to pitch just yesterday!
Spifficus - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#399822) #
In fairness, that was a 5-run Fenway game.
Kasi - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#399823) #
I wonder if there is stats behind getting warmed up/hot and coming in the game. Back in the older days I feel relievers warmed up a lot more often without coming in. Now it feels much higher chance of a pitcher warming up comes in the game. Obviously warming up has some cost to things but less than actually pitching. Magpie is this something you've looked at before?
hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#399824) #
To further greenfrog's point, Matt Wisler was DFA'd by the Giants about a week ago. Tampa then gave up a 40FV prospect for him. If a DFA'd reliever can get a 40FV prospect, imagine what it would cost now to get get someone really good.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#399825) #
Devers stood there looking right to left, to right to left, again and again....
jerjapan - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#399826) #
I'm with 92-93.  I'm not the type to to fault the manager, but that's managing scared, not smart, bringing Romano in. 
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#399827) #
In fairness, Romano threw 8 pitches.
The idea was to get those 3 guys at the bottom of the lineup out instead of sending somebody else and potentially having Romano come out to save a game against the top of the lineup.
He did got his bells rung though. Ouch.

Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#399828) #
Back in the older days I feel relievers warmed up a lot more often without coming in.

I don't think there's any way to actually check it out, but there are many, many stories of relievers complaining about managers getting them up in the pen without bringing them into the game. They all absolutely hate it.

Montoyo hasn't used any of his relievers on three consecutive days this season, so you can probably assume that Dolis and Mayza aren't available tomorrow. Saucedo will have to be LOOGY for a day. Thornton wasn't used, so he can work multiple innings in the event Ray doesn't have it tomorrow. Payamps will be available, and Castro too. Romano just had his shortest pitch count outing of the season, and he has pitched on consecutive days without issue.

And if they're trailing big-time after the sixth inning, Chatwood and Edwards can soak up some innings and maybe work through some issues.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#399829) #
that's managing scared

Well yeah. Have you seen this goddam bullpen? If you're not scared, you're not paying attention.
Spifficus - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#399830) #
I would just like to say that Matt Wisler has thrown 321 pitches this year, 290 of them being sliders. That's right. 90% of his pitches this year have been sliders.

That is all. Carry on with more normal bullpen usage debates.
hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#399832) #
Magpie, the fountain of truth.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#399833) #
Fountain of something, anyway.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#399835) #
I'm trying to figure out why Thornton was getting loose, and my best guess is that it was in case Romano wasn't feeling right. I don't think Montoyo wanted to use Thornton if he didn't have to. It would have definitely made him unavailable tomorrow. Thornton hasn't pitched on consecutive days since he was at Chapel Hill.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#399837) #
The Phillies just beat the Yankees and Aroldis Chapman 8-7 in 10 innings. Taillon lasted a third of an inning in this one. (Sorry not sorry, Yankees fans.)
jerjapan - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#399838) #
Sure this pen sucks right now, but to me, bringing in Romano means he's less available going forward for a closer game, and it tells the team that the manager doesn't trust the pen.  He's right not to trust the pen, but the team doesn't need to see it.
Just to psychoanalyze a bunch of people of never met from a distance...
But I do know about coaching and leading groups of people, and my goal is to minimize panic when it appears to be setting in.  I saw those players watching the game late.  Everyone looked nervous to my eye.
Chuck - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#399839) #
and it tells the team that the manager doesn't trust the pen

He trusts them, just not with a scant 5-run lead. They'd have to pitch to an ERA of 36.00 or better to have survived that 9th inning. You can't be asking that of just anybody.

greenfrog - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#399840) #
Montoyo also may have gone to the well one too many times with Giles in July 2019, causing him to be shut down for a while with an elbow injury, and possibly impacting his trade value that year as a result:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/07/ken-giles-trade-rumors-elbow-cortisone-blue-jays.html
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#399841) #
greenfrog, I can see logic in that for sure. They could probably get a lot for Semien. And I'm not saying they should go for broke. They have a ridiculous amount of prospect capital. And the team being without a home, this Jays season definitely has a bit of the Raptors season feel to it. But many of the losses the past month can be chalked up to the worst bullpen in the league (the numbers say they are the worst, if I'm not mistaken).

I wrote this before today's clean satisfying win, I'm not basing it off that. This offence has 2015, 1993 Jays potential. If you don't owe it to the massive fanbase, you owe it to the players to make some deals.



Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#399842) #
Everyone looked nervous to my eye.

I'll bet they were. They were all afraid, quite rightly, of the bullpen blowing yet another one. But if they lost with Romano on the mound, that's one thing. The players can deal with that. That's just baseball, it happens.

But if they lost in the ninth inning with someone else on the mound, someone who wasn't their best option, that would be far, far worse. That would be the manager's fault, even more than the actual pitcher, as far as the players are concerned.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#399844) #
Montoyo also may have gone to the well one too many times with Giles in July 2019

Yeah, I'm about 99% sure that was the last time Montoyo used anyone on three consecutive days.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#399845) #
To be clear, I meant the bullpen has been the worst in baseball the last month, per Ben Nicholson-Smith.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#399846) #
I think Edwards is fine to use in high leverage. He didn't walk anyone.
The problem with Thornton is that Montoyo doesn't want to use him late in game--unless they're losing and you can't bring him up with runners already on bases. He's not seeing much action.

Saucedo has barely walked anyone this year. He still gives a fair amount of hits but he also gets his share of strikeouts.


hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#399847) #
The past 30 days the Jays have blown 7 saves, tied with 2 other teams. But those 2 teams also have 6 saves in that time span. We have 2.
jerjapan - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#399848) #
Magpie, I know that's the logic for sure.  To me, with the 5 run lead, bring in Saucedo, if he struggles, Romano after 3 batters.  Ideally, he would have gone to Saucedo earlier, say to start the 7th.

If that strategy fails, it should be on the manager.  Take the blame.  That's leading.  Going to Romano locks down a probable win today, but reduces chances of winning going forward by using your best reliever in a situation we are almost certain to win. 

Perhaps he didn't want the kids debut to come with so much baggage, fair enough.  But I'm assuming that Saucedo is going to just sit in the pen as blowout insurance, like Beasley before him, who hadn't pitched since the 4th. 

I don't think the team can afford to punt a roster spot as insurance with a pen struggling like this.  There are a bunch of options in AAA, give one of them a call, and then use them. 
hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#399849) #
Meant to say 7 blown saves are the most in MLB the past 30 days.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#399850) #
They must really want Hatch to be a starter this season, otherwise I think he'd be up in the pen.

They should try and turn Anthony Kay into Brett Cecil. Both had flashes as starters (Cecil got more starts in the bigs, obviously). Hell, they even kinda look the same.
scottt - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#399851) #
Sure, Romano might no be available for a closer game, but this was starting to look like that 6 games slide at home.
Maybe tomorrow will be a closer game but maybe the Jays won't even have a lead after 5.

Saucedo doesn't throw hard,  90mph fastball, slider/change low 80s, curve in the mid-70s.
He's a groundball pitcher who walks few. He also gets a fair amount of infield fly balls.
Sounds a lot like Tommy Milone.

92-93 - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#399852) #
Castro has pitched 3 of the last 4 days, so using him tomorrow might be asking too much. It's okay, Ray is strong like ox and will go deep.

Great game from Biggio, who put 3 solid swings on the ball. His double was more of a HR swing than the one that cleared the Monster, and he hit a deep fly ball to CF late in the game. That infield single had some unusual action. He's an important component of this lineup, they really need him to get going to provide stable production from the bottom of the order by getting on base. Montoyo must think Biggio is a better outfielder than Hernandez if he starts in RF in Fenway.

Grichuk is now hitting .274/.305/.498. He is a career .249/.296/.485 hitter.

What more can be said about Vladdy? He is the best hitter in baseball in 2021, and could finish with the greatest offensive season ever for a Blue Jay. There's still another gear though with more selectivity, like Bautista in 2011 who was hitting .338/.489/.701 on this day with 21 HR and 58 BB. It would be fun to see him log a few more innings at 3B.
Magpie - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#399853) #
To me, with the 5 run lead, bring in Saucedo

And that's reasonable. I think Montoyo's idea is that after an awful loss he's going to do everything possible to make sure they don't lose the next one. Which I think is also reasonable.

It's not quite Buck's idea, which was very much let-us-eat-and-drink-tonight for tomorrow we may die. I do think he was trying to save Thornton. But in the same neighbourhood!
uglyone - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#399854) #
Best wRC+ in the "modern era" / since 1960

1. 2002 B.Bonds 244
2. 2001 B.Bonds 235
3. 2004 B.Bonds 233
4. 2003 B.Bonds 212
5. 1994 J.Bagwell 205
6. 1994 F.Thomas 205
7. 1998 M.McGwire 205
8. 2021 V.Guerrero 201 (264pa, .340babip)
9. 2020 J.Soto 201 (196pa, .363babip)
10. 1972 D.Allen 199
uglyone - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#399855) #
". I think Montoyo's idea is that after an awful loss he's going to do everything possible to make sure they don't lose the next one. "

100%

Last night was real bad. The team was very upset. It looked like some kind of breaking point imo. I don't blame Montoyo even a tiny bit for going with his only good reliever today.
hypobole - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#399856) #
"They'd have to pitch to an ERA of 36.00"

Think it was 5 days ago I mentioned Jackson Kowar. Top 100 prospect, May AAA pitcher of the month, 0.85 ERA in 6 starts. Comes up and gets shelled for 4 runs while only getting 2 outs in his MLB debut. Got another start today. He managed 4 outs this time while giving up another 4 runs. His ERA now is exactly 36.00.
soupman - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#399857) #
Asterix Tier performance so far.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#399858) #
Tampa Bay and Boston deserve some comeuppance, like the Yankees lately. Maybe this (rumoured) impending break in the schedule will help.

The starters have been providing more innings. There have been numerous scheduled off days. It makes the bullpen problems all the more curious.
Spifficus - Saturday, June 12 2021 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#399859) #
Asterix Tier performance so far.

I found it Gauling, too.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#399860) #
Indeed.

Aside from the Big Hurt, who I did always feel was the best pure hitter I ever saw back in the day.

And a guy who vladdy has always reminded me of most.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:29 AM EDT (#399861) #
They must really want Hatch to be a starter this season, otherwise I think he'd be up in the pen.

I think they're mostly trying to keep their options open. At this particular moment, it looks like they have five starters they can trust. But experience, among other things, suggests that the chances of being able to roll those five guys over from now til October are Slim and None. The rotation will almost surely need reinforcements at some point. It always does. (Two of the five guys are free agents when the season's over, which may or may not be a factor as well.)
Michael - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:12 AM EDT (#399862) #
I remember everyone was upset about pulling starters too early in the past so I think it is notable that Matz was allowed to attempt to go deeper in to this well past 100 pitches potentially. And while he didn't get to finish the 6th, I think he was still pitching pretty well and was a bit unlucky with the in-and-out of Grichuck's glove combined with the ball that bounced in the dirt and hit the shoe protector.

The state of the bullpen does encourage the manager to try to get the starters to go deeper, but I think even if/when the bullpen turns it around having more starters willing and able to go 110-120 pitches and make it into the 7th and later innings (when pitching well) would be a good thing overall.

And obviously there are both virtuous and vicious cycles of the fewer bullpen innings you need the more rested your guys are and the higher percentage of your high leverage innings can be pitched by your best guys, the more bullpen innings you need the more tired everyone is and the more you are stuck with whoever is healthy to pitch whichever innings.
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 07:57 AM EDT (#399863) #
Here's hoping for another day without Bogaerts.

Liners against the Green Monster are mostly just singles that don't score a runner from second.
Flyballs against the monster are easy doubles. Adams has the perfect swing for this but he looks like he'll have problem with the high heat.
Mike Green - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 08:17 AM EDT (#399864) #
I think they're mostly trying to keep their options open. At this particular moment, it looks like they have five starters they can trust. But experience, among other things, suggests that the chances of being able to roll those five guys over from now til October are Slim and None. The rotation will almost surely need reinforcements at some point. It always does. (Two of the five guys are free agents when the season's over, which may or may not be a factor as well.)

They have Pearson, Hatch and Murphy throwing 2-5 innings for Buffalo.  Meanwhile in Buffalo with the big club, when starters don't make it through 6, they're running through 3 or 4 pitchers to get to the Dolis Experience (have you ever been experienced?) and/or Romano (health permitting).  In the absence of Merryweather, Borucki and Phelps, this approach to the bullpen doesn't make sense.  Pearson or Hatch is going to throw 50 pitches at least to get through 3 innings and he'll do a better job than what they have now.  If you need a starter down the line, he'll be ready to step in. 

Reinforcements are needed now.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#399865) #
I've never had an issue with starting off SP prospects in the MLB pen....and with current modern pen usage it seems to be even more doable now.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#399866) #
They have Pearson, Hatch and Murphy throwing 2-5 innings for Buffalo.

I think that's the point. If they were in the majors, they'd be one-inning relievers. They're trying to get them stretched out.
Mike Green - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#399867) #
That's the problem. You don't have to have 8 one-inning relievers. It doesn't make sense to do that if 6 or 7 of them aren't effective in the role.
greenfrog - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#399868) #
the Dolis Experience (have you ever been experienced?)

No. But I would like to see Hendriks perform live some day.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#399869) #
You don't have to have 8 one-inning relievers.

No, but it makes managing the pen so very much simpler if you got 'em!

I assume you're advocating using Hatch, Murphy, Pearson (all three?) as multi-inning setup men to bridge the gap between the starter and Dolis/Romano. They're all young guys who've been trained as starters so you'd be well advised to give them a clean inning when they come into a game.

So you've got Castro and Mayza for when you need to make a mid-inning change.

And you've got Thornton and Chatwood for Long Relief/Garbage Time. (Chatwood is supposed to be in the Castro/Mayza role but I'm not letting him near a game situation until he puts multiple good outings together.

Bloody hell, we've still got nine relievers! Oh well. Anyway, now I think I want to look at the last two trips through the rotation and see how this might have worked.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#399870) #
bpoz - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#399871) #
I agree with Mike Green. We need relievers that can go 4+ innings with 80 pitches.

Our current SPs are giving us length. So no recent bullpen days.

Hopefully the AAA/AA SPs and long relievers will have success when they get their chance.

Saucedo was a SP but this year in AAA he is a 1 inning guy.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#399873) #
Hatch and Murphy aren't just pitching in Buffalo. They're both on rehab assignments.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#399874) #
We need relievers that can go 4+ innings with 80 pitches.

No. If that's what you really need, what you need even more are some decent starting pitchers.

Anyway. here's my Thought Experiment, the last two times through the rotation with our adjusted bullpen (Hatch, Murphy, Pearson replacing Edwards, Payamps, Saucedo.)

Ray (6) - Hatch 2, Romano 1
Manoah (3.1, DOWN by 3) - Chatwood 1.2, Murphy 2, Pearson 2
Ryu (5.2, DOWN by 7) - Mayza .1, Thornton 3
Stripling 5 - Hatch 2, Dolis 1, Romano 1
Matz 4.1 (DOWN by 3) - Castro .2, Chatwood 2, Murphy 2

Ray 6.1 (TIE) - Mayza .2, Pearson 2, ???
Manoah 5 - Hatch 2, Dolis 1, Romano 1
Ryu 6 (DOWN by 2) - Thornton 2
Stripling 5.2 - Castro .1, Murphy 2, Dolis 1
Matz 5.2 - Mayza .1, Pearson 2, Romano 1

On the one hand, it does seem to work fairly nicely. The three newbies each make 3 appearances and work 6 innings in 10 games. Over a full season, that would be 48 appearances and 96 IP, which relievers used to do All The Time back in the day, without disintegrating into a pile of goo. And you could certainly get more of Mayza and Castro, and turn at least one of those 2 inning appearances into a single inning.

On the other hand, I cheated. In the second game, with Manoah losing in the fourth inning, even if Chatwood got you through the fifth, as sure as eggs is eggs Thornton would then come in to soak up multiple innings. I gave those innings to Murphy and Pearson because I knew I'd need Thornton the next day when Ryu fell behind by 7. I can read the future, you see.
Nigel - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#399875) #
While I whole heartedly agree with the need for a couple of multi inning relievers in the pen, I really think Pearson needs to stay where he is for a bit. His control (and results) have only been meh since he got sent back down and he just needs to pitch some extended innings, in one role and one place. Itís been a long time since thatís happened. Once Hatch and Murphy have finished their rehab assignments then they should be brought up. Whether Montoyo and the team would actually deploy them as multi inning relievers is another story.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#399877) #
Agree with Nigel on this one, although Hatch last year was used 1 inning or less only 5 of his 17 appearances. See no reason he would be a 1 inning guy now.

As for a true long man, what happened to Tommy Milone? He must have one of the most extreme phantom injuries in baseball history.
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#399878) #
Murphy has only pitched 6 innings in 4 games. That's his career line. Maybe not ready for high leverage.
Also, he's not being stretched. He's just completing his rehab.
His fastball/curve combo would fit really well in the pen.

Payamps seems to be the forgotten man here.

We don't know the medical circumstances of the relievers.
Cole, for example, went from day-to-day to the 10IL to the 60IL.
I suppose that allows them to send him to an extra long rehab.
I have no idea how hurt he actually is.

The trade deadline is July 30.
A month and half to go, minus the All-Star break.

mathesond - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#399879) #
RIP Mudcat Grant. I had no idea he was at least as good a singer as he was a pitcher.
Mike Green - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#399880) #
I'd be perfectly content with them calling up Hatch or Pearson as a multi-inning reliever 2-3 inning stints now, Murphy when he has had a few more outings, and then the other of Hatch or Pearson if necessary later. 

For what it's worth, I don't think Pearson is going to be a starter but if the organization wants to keep sending him out in that role in Buffalo indefinitely, that doesn't bother me.  What does bother me is the rigid thinking- one-inning stints for relievers in the major leagues, starters developing exclusively in the minor leagues by starting there- no matter what the facts on the ground are. 
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#399881) #
Yeah I think there'sa huge difference between a prospect like Pearson and late 20s mediocrities like Hatch/Murphy/Kay/Waguespack/Zeuch.

Pearson you don't make decisions on based on the team needs, just on his own timeline.

The other guys though - shuffle them up and down as needed. They're all interesting enough to give chances to when the bullpen is struggling this badly.
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#399882) #
The Red Sox rotation has struggled over their last 9 starts.
It's totally unrelated to the league announcing how it will police the usage of illegal substances on the balls starting around June 21. Pitchers will be checked during commercial breaks and ejected if any illicit substances are found.

hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#399883) #
To change the subject, I skimmed 3 websites for strength-of-schedule thus far and all 3, unsurprisingly, had the Jays #1.

The good news, maybe, is Tankathon ranks the strength of our remaining schedule 23rd(.493 Win%), while the Yankees are 4th(.518), Boston 7th(.509).

The big problem for the playoffs is that the chances of catching Tampa are slim to put it mildly. Their remaining schedule strength is equal to ours.

Houston has an even softer road than we do, and all of Chicago, Cleveland, and the Angels have a sub .500 opponent record. Oakland's .502 is the toughest of this group.
Nigel - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#399884) #
I too have trouble seeing Pearson as a starter over the longer term. However, between the need to give him some settled regular innings and the huge upside to the franchise if he is able to develop as a starter, Iím in favour of the current approach with Pearson. The growing slavish approach to having 8 one inning relievers in a pen drives me crazy too. However, itís pretty clear that Montoyo wants 3 or 4 one inning high leverage relievers to handle the 7-9 innings. He only has two right now, so heís likely to try any reinforcements in that role.
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#399885) #
Boston has DFAed Brandon Brennan after his 3 scoreless innings and promoted Ryan Weber.
Weber is a sinkerball who was striking out 2 hitters per 9 innings last year.

uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#399886) #
Imo regardless of what role he's used in nate is still at a delicate stage where he needs to sort out his mechanics and really get them down. I'd rather he do that in the minors.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#399887) #
Cole and Bauer are the only names people keep bringing up, but there should be plenty of pitchers losing RPM's on their 4 seamers, sliders and curves. Anyone seen anything on this yet?
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#399888) #
I think that catching Tampa depends on how much the Rays are affected by the new rules on usage of grip enhancers by pitchers. Prior to May 5, the Rays were under .500 in games not started by Glasnow. Certainly, they could still hit a rough patch or two, but the Jays might need to win some series against them. It's also possible that Wander Franco is immediately productive and that they dodge further injuries.
bpoz - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#399889) #
Thanks hypobole for the strength of schedule info. The obvious reason for this is the difference of the divisions. That will not change. Baltimore should get stronger in the next 3 years.

For the Central, KC should be strong starting as early as next year. Detroit and Minnesota probably stay down for 3 more years.

The West could have 5 strong teams in 2 years.

Those were all guesses on my part.

For the East NYY and Boston will spend their way to 1/2. The Jays have a very talented core and should mature into being competitive with NYY and Boston. TB should fall if they continue to give up talent like Snell and Morton.
Nigel - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#399890) #
Matz to the CV IL
greenfrog - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#399891) #
Anyone have a George Springer update?
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#399892) #
"Weber is a sinkerball who was striking out 2 hitters per 9 innings last year."

Hey, I remember Weber! He faced 44 batters to start the season and still hadn't struck anyone out. The 44th was Grichuk who got a leadoff walk. Travis Shaw was #45. Full count, Charlie starts the runner. You can guess the rest.

I don't think the hit-and-run gods hate any team more than the Blue Jays.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#399893) #
"Weber is a sinkerball who was striking out 2 hitters per 9 innings last year."

So the Red Sox have a T.J. Zeuch too...
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#399894) #
a prospect like Pearson and late 20s mediocrities like Hatch/Murphy/Kay/Waguespack/Zeuch.

Pearson may well be the more enticing prospect, but of those late 20s mediocrities, Zeuch is 12 months older than Pearson and Murphy is 14 months older. Kay is three months older then Murphy, Hatch is six months older than Kay. Waguespack - okay, he's as old as the hills. But the rest are a fair bit closer to one another, there being 23 months between Hatch and Pearson. It would be a much bigger deal if they were hitters, of course.
Eephus - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#399895) #
The Red Sox deserve to lose solely on the basis of having one of the most gorgeous home jerseys in all of sports, yet continuously choosing to wear these red abominations. At least make the numbers white or something... I feel like I'm staring at a bag of random sour candies.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#399896) #
Welcome back, Biggio's missing power.
92-93 - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#399897) #
It's about time this Red Sox rotation gets exposed for what they are. Now don't let up, pound em into submission.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#399898) #
Amagpie - if things haven't changed for Nate in a year or two, then yeah he goes in the same bucket.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#399899) #
I still say that Wall is a disgrace to the sport.

But it's nice to make use of it while we can.
92-93 - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#399900) #
Gurriel finally gets the SLG to .400 and is now hitting .262/.284/.400. How long until he passes Grichuk in OPS? Time for Biggio to catch up.
Chuck - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#399901) #
Yankees have 4 guys with 20+ RBI and 2 sitting on 19. What is Buck talking about?
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#399902) #
Starter out after only 4 outs. I guess that was the plan all along.
Switch to a totally different type of pitcher and hope the hitters can't adjust.

hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#399903) #
"Matz to the CV IL"

Matzís most recent test turned up an inconclusive result, leading to todayís IL placement, but the 30-year-old is not feeling any symptoms of the virus, per MLBTR

bpoz - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#399904) #
That group of 6 pitchers have not succeeded yet for different reason.

Waguespack was given enough chances and failed. Zeuch as well. Both are getting a chance to improve in AAA. Zeuch may get 2 more shots this year I expect.

Kay and Hatch have had injuries. When healthy still nothing great. Both can be tried at long or short relievers.

Pearson has shown that he can dominate.

Murphy has had injuries that prevented him from getting a fair test so far.

We are quite serious about winning this year so immediate success is needed from the above group of pitchers. The opportunity will present itself to be taken advantage of by good performance and health.

hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#399905) #
Yeah those Red Sox starters feel-good stories ain't feeling too good lately.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#399906) #
Yes, Buck the Yankees schedule will get easier now that they already have 10 games with the Orioles out of the way.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#399907) #
This is fun.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#399908) #
Literally have no idea how this red sock team has a winning record. Entirely smoke and mirrors.
Chuck - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#399909) #
Safe enough for Chatwood yet? Maybe a few more runs first?
92-93 - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#399910) #
Only if Romano is warming up behind him in case the game gets within 5 runs. It's Fenway, after all.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#399911) #
Chuck, I was thinking more a Saucedo sighting.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#399912) #
At this rate Ray might be our first SP to go 8 innings this year.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#399913) #
Someone's getting a lot of mileage out of a dead horse
Eephus - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#399914) #
Literally have no idea how this red sock team has a winning record.

Their starting rotation is the opposite of Mr. Burns jinxing the Springfield softball team. "But five random non misfortunes! I'd like to see that!"
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#399915) #
Turning Point game.
Chuck - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#399916) #
There goes Pythagoras.
Spifficus - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#399917) #
4 multi-hit games in his last 6; I think Bo's starting to heat up.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#399918) #
Just had a vision of a Monty Python skit but I'm not sure Pythagoras was on that soccer pitch.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#399919) #
Literally have no idea how this red sock team has a winning record.

It helps to be the third best team in the league at scoring runs - I called it a three man offense, I should have added Verdugo and said four. They've been league average at preventing runs, at least until the Jays came to town. It's been done with a bunch of league average starters and a really good, really deep bullpen. The last of which hasn't been that big a factor so far this weekend.

And they've gone 11-0 against the Mets, Marlins, Yankees, and... (drum roll) Tampa Bay.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#399920) #
OK, I hereby declare this game Chatwood-proof.
Chuck - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#399921) #
I'm not sure Pythagoras was on that soccer pitch.

He was the one running diagonally.

uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#399922) #
Add in Springer and Kirk and whoa nelly this lineup looks good. Vladdy going Hall of Fame mode has raised the ceiling on this team considerably.

I wasn't gonna have a beer today but this game has me in the mood for a nice refreshing pint. And a cigarette break too if I still did that.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#399923) #
Weber is a sinkerball who was striking out 2 hitters per 9 innings last year

He struck out 5.7 per 9 last season. He just didn't strike out anyone in his first two appearances, in which he was beaten senseless and bloody.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#399924) #
Actually love this inning from Ray - just throwing strikes with the big lead, not dinking around.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#399925) #
I'm not sure Pythagoras was on that soccer pitch.

He wasn't one of the starting lineup. I assume he and Eratosthenes (my hero!) were available had a substitution been required.

Yes, I just watched it.
Eephus - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#399926) #
It's only a few games since he's been back, but I wonder if Biggio's injury (neck?) had been bugging him for quite some time before the IL stint. The ball is jumping off his bat with considerably more force than it did earlier this year.

The joyous optimism of a 14-3 ballgame.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#399927) #
Yikes. Maybe save some for tomorrow?
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#399928) #
Did Weber kill Alex Cora's dog? This is cruel.
John Northey - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#399929) #
The depression many felt on Friday has vanished it seems. 3 game of 5+ runs against the Red Sox will do that. Bo-Vlad-Biggio all homering in the same game for the 2nd time ever. Get a feeling that will happen a lot more.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#399930) #
There's much to be said for crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, hearing the lamentations of the women.

Cheers one up.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#399931) #
A day ago, Weber was getting minor league salary.

That said, Weber will almost certainly be back to minor league salary tomorrow.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#399932) #
"You took one for the team, son. We owe you one. Now go away."
Chuck - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#399933) #
A nine man bullpen and we see a position player pitching? Shameful.
92-93 - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#399934) #
ďNo problem, Coach, but my arm is sore.Ē - Dirk Hayhurst
BlueJayWay - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#399935) #
It's only a few games since he's been back, but I wonder if Biggio's injury (neck?) had been bugging him for quite some time before the IL stint. The ball is jumping off his bat with considerably more force than it did earlier this year.


Remember he also had a finger issue that he was playing with early on. He got over that and was swinging the bat a lot better, but then the neck injury put him on the IL.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#399936) #
Shameful.

Tell that to Gurriel, Biggio and Adams.

That was the 1st time all 3 batters were retired without a baserunner by a Boston pitcher since the 4th inning yesterday.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#399937) #
Arroyo consoles himself with the thought that these runs are unearned.
Chuck - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#399938) #
Saving Chatwood for extra innings?
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#399939) #
Doesn't trust him with a lead, clearly.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#399940) #
Most home runs at Fenway by the visiting team ever.

Fenway opened in April 1912, the same week the Titanic went down.
uglyone - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#399941) #
"Most home runs at Fenway by the visiting team ever."

Fantastic.
Eephus - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#399942) #
Geez I left after the 6th to (hopefully) go purchase a long overdue bicycle. By these comments I suspect things have not gone better for the BoSox.

Oops sorry, bad translation. I meant: Heh heh heh he he hah hah hah.

Phones these days.
electric carrot - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#399943) #
I just want to be on record that I laughed at every single Chatwood mention in this thread.
hypobole - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#399944) #
Magpie, despite Charlie and Jonathan's best efforts your lovely TV looks to have made it through another day.

Davis is a scrub because he's a really poor hitter with almost no power. However, the one thing that separates him from a lot of other scrubs is that he seems to know exactly what he is.

Of all the guys on the current roster, he's chased outside the strike zone less than anyone, even Biggio. Only McGuire and Panik have swung and missed less than he has. His offensive gameplan seems to be standing with the bat on his shoulder as long as possible.

That would be a terrible gameplan for a Vlad, but IMO the best gameplan for a guy who's only "skill" is a bit of speed.
Davis OBP is .289 now, which is bad for an MLB player, but really good for a guy hitting .147.

I guess I have somewhat of an affinity for guys in any sport who can stay in their lane.
scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#399945) #
Yeah, I misread Weber's stat line. That was his K/BB.
4 homeruns in 40 innings in 2019.
8 in 43 innings in 2020.
5 in 5.2 in 2021. Might not pitch in the bigs again this year.

scottt - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#399946) #
I don't get the Thorton usage here.
Beasley is a freebie, he could be off the team tomorrow if Matz test negative.

This looked like a good time to get Chatwood some work and maybe debut Saucedo with no pressure.
Thorton should be good enough to get work in any situation, he's mostly the long relief guy and could be needed any day.


Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#399949) #
I don't get the Thornton usage here.

Montoyo said he wanted to stretch him out a bit, in case he was needed for a bullpen day, with Matz availability a bit of a question.
Magpie - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#399951) #
I left after the 6th to (hopefully) go purchase a long overdue bicycle

Was the mission successful? And most important, did you get an industrial strength lock? Preferably one that lashes out against would-be thieves, and inflicts disfiguring scars?
AWeb - Sunday, June 13 2021 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#399952) #
I checked in when it was 4-0, and then saw the final score was 18-4, and I was simultaneously a little thrilled and crushed, before I noticed who won. Whew, and yay! Fun to watch the highlights on that one.
Eephus - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:03 AM EDT (#399954) #
And most important, did you get an industrial strength lock? Preferably one that lashes out against would-be thieves, and inflicts disfiguring scars?

T'was! Doubly successful in fact. For now they're tucked away in the shared garage, giving me time to perfect my Electro-Shock/ATM Blue Ink Spray bicycle lock patent I'm sure many will line up for. It's rough out there.

Fun win. Lets see what the big kid fella can do to finish the series.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 06:19 AM EDT (#399955) #
Which one? Manoah?

Vladdy is 1 for 6 against Eovaldi. Semien 0 for 2.
Almost everybody else has good numbers though.
That Red Sox bullpen should be well rested by now.

The next set is in Buffalo against the 4th place Yankees.


greenfrog - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 08:04 AM EDT (#399956) #
Life in the AL East: the Jays have a +50 run differential and are 33-30. Cleveland has a -8 run differential and are 33-28 (and 1.5 games ahead of the Jays in the Wild Card standings).
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#399957) #
The Jays lost a bunch of games in bullpen meltdowns. Those are often close games.

It's still early. Cleveland has swept the Cubs, swept the Royals, lost to Seattle, lost to the Angels, the Twins, the Jays, the Yankees, but they've already played the Tigers 9 times.

uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#399958) #
Well it's not early exactly...but it's definitely not too late.

They need to get on a legit roll....pronto.
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#399959) #

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. leads the AL in BA (.344), HR (21) and RBI (55).

Heís the first player, age-22 or younger, to lead his league in all 3 triple crown categories 60+ games into a season since Hall of Famer Al Kaline in 1955 h/t @EliasSports pic.twitter.com/tL0UZSllpS

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) June 14, 2021
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#399960) #
Pretty easy to forget about Al Kaline.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#399961) #
The Red Sox are now 19-17 home and 20-10 on the road.
Here's a team gunning for the second wildcard.

hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#399962) #
"Pretty easy to forget about Al Kaline."

Huh?
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#399963) #
"They need to get on a legit roll....pronto."

Exactly. Posted a month ago about the fearsome stretch we had upcoming, with only a 2 game break vs the Marlins. Also remember the response, "they should be fearing us". Well maybe they feared us, but they also beat us too often.

Took care of business vs Miami, but Jays are 9-13 in the tough games mentioned. Four more "4 pt games", to borrow a hockey term, before our 1st game against the Orioles.

Were not quite the Phillies from last year, at least we have 1 bullpen arm in Romano that's been doing the job, but that's really the only area that's a huge concern now that the starting staff has shown signs of solidifying.
Chuck - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#399964) #
Fun with BBRef. Something I like to do is visit their home page and (a) identify as many of the faces as a I can recognize (not too strong on the B&W ones) and (b) guess at the career WAR for said players.

Sometimes I am close with WAR. Sometimes, my memory does not serve me well at all. Today was a case in point. Man in Rangers hat? Ruben Sierra! Career WAR? My guess was 30, 35. The answer was 17. His best year, at age 23, saw a WAR of 6 and a 2nd place MVP finish (undeserved). He would spend the next 17 seasons accumulating all of 6 more WAR at a cost of over $40M.

scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#399965) #
Kaline finished the year with 200 hits, 102 RBI and only 27 homeruns. Stilll good for 8.2 bWAR and the first of 13 All-Star seasons.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#399966) #
Take a look at the Jays' BR page, Chuck. They still have a guy up there this year that most fans wouldn't recognize, even if they have been watching lately.

Tonight feels like an important game, even if we know it's just 1 of 162. The Jays need to win the series after these last two games (and the early lead in Game 1) or it can be a bit deflating. The current roster is hitting .327/.369/.618 vs. Eovaldi in 55 AB, and that's with an empty 1/6 from Guerrero.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#399967) #
Talking about the pictures, 17.1 WAR Aaron Hill is the final Jays picture. Is the All-Star break next year the over/under on when Vlad replaces Aaron?
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#399968) #
My ballot for the National League All Stars:

1B - ATL - Freddie Freeman
2B - MIA - Jazz Chisholm Jr.
3B - SF - Evan Longoria
SS - SD - Fernando Tatis Jr.
C - LAD - Will Smith
OF - ATL - Ronald AcuŮa Jr.
OF - MIA - Starling Marte
OF - CIN - Nick Castellanos

(Arbitrary selections - Confirmed)
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#399969) #
Anybody other Posey at C is blasphemy. It's amazing how he and Longoria have turned back the clock this season.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#399971) #
I will forever hold Posey personally responsible for eliminating the most exciting play in all of sports. That's right, Buster.
Chuck - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#399973) #
They still have a guy up there this year that most fans wouldn't recognize, even if they have been watching lately.

This remark obviously had me curious. My first thought: do I remember what Otto Velez or Alvis Woods look like? I visited the page and can honestly say that I'm not sure who you are referring to. Ernie Whitt maybe, because of his long ago heroics in Fenway?

Chuck - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#399974) #
I will forever hold Posey personally responsible for eliminating the most exciting play in all of sports.

You mean the most pointless?

hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#399975) #
Chuck, I'm guessing he meant Payamps on this years page
Mike Green - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#399977) #
During the tough stretch, the Jays had outscored the opposition even before yesterday's very pleasant game. 

This club could easily run off a long streak.  No time like the present. 


Parker - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#399978) #
They have the mark of a quite good but slightly unlucky team. 9-6 in blowouts, 5-6 in one-run games.

4-11 in two-run games, though. The wisdom is that the good team wins blowouts and loses close games, but what is a team with sorta bad luck in one-run games but an awful record in sorta close games? Is it a weird kind of bad luck, or is it an issue with resource management?
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#399979) #
This year's team page, not the franchise one. Payamps has been pitching lately and might be recognized.

There's another guy on there that has played in as many games as Springer and it would be great to get him back.
John Northey - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#399980) #
Right now the Jays are...
  • vs teams >500 - 22-24
  • vs sub 500 - 11-6
  • vs NL: 11-2
  • vs Yankees: 6-3
  • vs Boston: 4-4
  • vs Tampa: 2-5
  • sub 500 vs Astros, Angels, White Sox, Rangers, Royals
  • Pefect vs Atlanta (6-0), and Miami (2-0)
  • vs LHP: 260/324/434
  • vs RHP: 265/329/460
  • LH hitters vs RHP: 241/314/378
  • RH hitters vs RHP: 272/334/484 - why do we care if the Jays have a LH hitter again?
  • OPS by month: 705-813-858 - going the right direction. ERA: 3.42-4.32-4.50 uh oh. Winning Percentage: 500-536-545 Phew.
What I see is those bloody Rays are killing the Jays as always, our LH hitters are killing us (Tellez, Biggio), but despite the pitching flopping after March/April the team is winning more each month. Treading water vs 500+ teams, pounding the sub 500's. Just what is needed. Now imagine if we get our starting CF here for more than 4 games, our top 2 catchers back, and ideally a few of the relievers back too. No question in my mind that the pen is the #1 issue to be dealt with. Biggio starting to look alive after coming back from injuries (wonder if he was determined to tough it out, and if so hopefully he has learned to never do that again) which would solve the 3B issue. If Manoah and Stripling can both keep doing well then the rotation should be OK (assuming Matz is back quickly from the COVID IL). I like Castro & Romano but the rest give me ulcers. Dolis is good as a #5 guy but not as #2. Thornton is decent as a long man, Mayza is up and down, the rest...meh at best. Hopefully someone returns soon.
John Northey - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#399983) #
All-Star results so far list top 3 at each position...
  • Vlad: 1st 51%
  • Semien: 1st 34% (next is Jose Altuve, HOU, 20%)
  • Bo: 2nd 15% (#1 is Xander Bogaerts, BOS, 31%)
  • Teoscar: 5th 5% & Randal: 6th 4% - OF leaders are Trout 15%, Judge 11%, Buxton 8%. Adolis GarcŪa, TEX, 7% is also ahead of our guys.
  • They list Gurriel at DH and Springer in the OF (meh, whatever).
So if you have time go to MLB.com and vote for the Jays. Lets push for 5 All-Stars! For the NL I voted for ex-Jays where I could, Canadians if I could find them. Freddie Freeman played for Team Canada due to his parents both being Canadian for example and he is 2nd in the NL at 1B.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#399984) #
I'm guessing he meant Payamps on this years page

Or Merryweather. He pitched 4.1 innings, I'm supposed to remember what he looks like?

But I also thought he might mean the franchise page, and I admit I had to look twice at Juan Guzman (where are the jheri curls?) and it's a weird picture of Alex Rios.
Nigel - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#399985) #
If you look at run differential, record against +.500 teams and difficulty of schedule, it shows a pretty clear picture that, to date, TB and Houston are a fairly sizeable cut above everyone else in the AL. The Jays would fall into the next tier with the Red Sox, White Sox, Clev and Oakland. My subjective observation would support that as well. Its only 60 or so games though.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#399986) #
Yeah, he meant Merryweather. But what kind of fan doesn't know what the return for Josh Donaldson looks like after they flashed his picture up constantly both last season and early this season?

OK, if you only listen on the radio, but then with Payamps you'd really have no clue.
Parker - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#399987) #
Yeah, he meant Merryweather. But what kind of fan doesn't know what the return for Josh Donaldson looks like after they flashed his picture up constantly both last season and early this season?

I'm not sure they're Blue Jays fans. They seem to love Alex Anthopoulos. Their memory could be most charitably described as "selective".
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#399988) #
One of the things that interested me about these four games with Boston was the very idea of having Jordan Romano and Adam Ottavino in the same ball park at the same time. With luck, they might even pitch in the same game.

Why, you wonder?

Because it's quite possible that Romano and Ottavino are as bad at holding baserunners as any pitchers have ever been. I mean ever. In the history of baseball. It would truly be difficult to be worse at this fairly minor part of the job than they are. So that's something to see.

You want some numbers? Of course you do.

Romano's only pitched 51.2 innings in the majors, and the opposition has stolen 10 bases without being caught. That's one SB every 5.2 innings. Ottavino has pitched 523.2 innings, and the opposition has stolen 96 bases in 108 tries. That's 1 every 5.4 innings, and an 88.9% success rate. More bases have been stolen with Ottavino on the mound than were stolen against Warren Spahn. Not to mention guys like Mark Buehrle or Whitey Ford.

I'm as positive as one can be that no one allowed more stolen bases than Nolan Ryan. He pitched a zillion innings (5,386 to be exact) and he couldn't hold a runner to save his life (frankly, he couldn't be bothered.) His opponents stole 757 bases in 1009 attempts. That's 1 SB every 7.1 innings, and a 75.0% success rate. (It was actually even easier to run on Dwight Gooden - 1 every 6.2 innings - but Ryan pitched twice as many innings as Gooden.) Others of note - Greg Maddux was just terrible at preventing the stolen base, and Tom Seaver wasn't much better. But Gaylord Perry was outstanding.

I can't be 100% sure that Ryan's the number one guy because the SB records against pitchers only go back to 1916. But we have large enough chunks of the careers of Pete Alexander and Walter Johnson to know that they came nowhere close. Teams didn't run that much, and they didn't run all that well either.

Romano and Ottavino! This is special, folks!
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#399989) #
As long as we don't have any pitchers in the game.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#399990) #
While I was into the subject, I also looked at the 8 Blue Jays pitchers who worked at least 1000 innings for Toronto. We'll just summarize their ability to prevent the stolen base:

Key and Stieb - really good
Hentgen and Clancy - average
Halladay - below average
Guzman and Stottlemyre - awful
Wells - confusing. But let's say below average on his first tour, and awful on his second tour. Especially for a southpaw.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#399991) #
The .500 record thing is very subjective. The strength of teams waxes and wanes. Some bad teams have good starters and a good record when those guys start. The Rays schedule looks better because they have to play weaker teams like the Jays and the Jays schedule looks worse because they have to play very strong teams like Tampa. In truth, when you're behind a division rivals, you want as many head to head games as possible and the Jays could have easily come ahead against the Rays if not for some truly awful blown saves. 

The Rays have a very solid pen despite having an army of pitchers on the IL.
Nick Anderson, Chris Archer, Jalen Beeks, Yonny Chirinos, Oliver Drake, Colin Poche, Cody Reed and Chaz Roe are all on the 60IL. What's interesting with that is that they could have a nice 40 roster crunch down the road.

scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#399992) #
Me, I just wonder how the Romano calisthenics would be impacted by a pitch clock.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#399993) #
I'm off on a Whitey Ford tangent. But he pitched for 16 years, he threw more than 3100 innings, and he allowed 30 stolen bases (54 caught stealing) in all that time. Total. Nolan Ryan beat that number in eleven different seasons. When Adam reached Peak Ottavino in 2018, he allowed 24 SB in 77 innings.

There were lots of reasons why. There was like one guy in the league who stole bases back then. Ford was almost always winning that day's game, and you don't run when you're losing. And he was a LH with an outstanding move, who was quick to the plate, and Berra and Howard could throw.

But still...
Mike Green - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#399994) #
Nigel, BaseRuns has the AL records as follows:

White Sox: 42-23
Astros: 41-24
Rays: 40-26
Jays: 35-28
Yankees: 36-29
Athletics: 36-31
Red Sox: 33-33

Base Runs does not incorporate strength of schedule, but does address efficiency in run production/prevention.

BBRef's SRS which does incorporate strength of schedule has them in this order:

Rays: 1.4
Astros: 1.4
Jays: 1.2
White Sox: 1.2
Red Sox: 0.6
Athletics: 0.4
Yankees: 0.1

I think that SRS has it right- the Rays and Astros slightly ahead of the Jays and White Sox so far. I also think that, when healthy, the Jays have the best club in the league by a nose. It doesn't do you much good when you are 33-30 and 7.5 games out of first place...

Jonny German - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#399995) #
The head shot that really confused me the first time I saw it is on the Jays 2020 page. And even if you know who it is you'll likely be surprised to see him 5th on the team in bWAR.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#399996) #
Bullpens are almost invariably the major factor in teams over or under performing their Pythagoras. Major cause of concern for the Jays. Need guys to step up, get healthy or both, at least until the trade deadline. And let's not get too attached to our prospects. It's going to cost to get solid bullpen arms.

Jays/Yankees. It was pointed out at FG Power Rankings the Yankees have played the 5 weakest AL teams (Rangers, Mariners, Twins, Tigers, O's) 23 times already. The Jays 3.

hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#399997) #
Jonny, I just looked and yup, who is that guy.

On the other hand, not surprised at his ranking. That's why Charlie keeps letting him scare the crap out of us this year.
Mike Green - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#399998) #
When I studied under and over performance vs. Pythagoras a few years ago, I was surprised to find that bullpen quality seemed to be a minor factor. Some of it unquestionably was sheer luck.
Nigel - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#399999) #
Mike - sure, I can buy that relative ranking. I certainly agree that the Yankees aren't in the discussion right now. Subjectively, I think the Rays, at least, are better than those numbers suggests.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#400000) #
They zoom in on that mug so often throughout his painful outings that it's surprising he could go unrecognized.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#400001) #
This is Manoah's biggest test so far. A good hitting team in a hitter's park.
Also, this is the first time he'll be pitching on regular rest, so the velo might suffer.

GabrielSyme - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#400003) #
It must be nearly impossible to look good with a cap on and staring straight at the camera, because the BR headshots are almost inevitably unflattering.
Mike Green - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#400004) #
Nigel- the Rays have gone 6-0 against Baltimore and outscored them 48-21. They are a good deep team, but the frontline talent is missing something. Maybe  Wander Franco will supply it.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#400005) #
Since April 28th:

Gurriel .301/.320/.493 (154 PA)
Grichuk .265/.282/.488 (170 PA)

A fast start works wonders on perception.
Gerry - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#400006) #
Matz has tested positive for COVID. He must miss ten days from the day of his test.

Springer will start his rehab tomorrow.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#400007) #
10 days sounds like just 1 start.
Allgeyer for 1 time through the rotation? Not ideal since the Yankees are mostly  a right hitting team.
Kay? Same deal. Pearson? Not ready. Zeuch? Meh.
Hatch? Possible.

Nigel - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#400009) #
Mike - TB is also 26-16 against +.500 teams (small sample sizes and all:)). I agree that the position player group lacks some star power but that bullpen looks pretty dominant to me.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#400010) #
It should be Hatch, who will have an extra days rest and threw 50 pitches over 2 innings in his last rehab start. Thornton will be ready too, either as an opener or long relief.

After that the Jays won't need a 5th SP again until June 23rd, and Matz should be good to go by then provided he remains asymptomatic.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#400011) #
That and the All-Star game will pose some challenges.
The Cubs is one team that has more than 15% of the players/staff who refused the vaccine.
There's probably others.

greenfrog - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#400012) #
Hopefully the decision about Springer was a principled one, and not one borne of desperation (like last time).
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#400013) #
I'm guessing the last time Springer wasn't totally honest about the injury. I'm guessing this time he has been. We'll see.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#400014) #
There's probably others.

Since Cora and others in the dugout were still wearing masks on the weekend, Red Sox are one. They're not announcing the teams, but easy to spot which are or aren't vaccinated.
vw_fan17 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#400016) #
Pretty easy to forget about Al Kaline.

It's a pretty basic mistake.
greenfrog - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#400017) #
Nice one, VW.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#400020) #
That hanging slider for strike 3 won't work for long, Alek. His line doesn't match how he has looked the first two innings.
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#400021) #
He's fooling them so far but this 94 FB / 88 CH / 82 SL combo seems like it doesn't leave much room for error.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#400023) #
He's scrapped the changeup tonight. It's all four-seamers and sliders. But it's working. One more inning, 2-3-4 coming up?

Oh yeah. This bullpen.
Mike Green - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#400024) #
Looking forward to the umpire scorecard on tonight's game.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#400025) #
That was one helluva start from Manoah. Wish we could see him back out there in the 7th.
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#400026) #
Love seeing that energy. Hitters need to feed off it.
Mike Green - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#400027) #
Barely scraped through that inning.
Petey Baseball - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#400028) #
Please don't bunt here, Charlie.
lexomatic - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#400029) #
Yeah nobody seems happy eith the strike zone in the 6thGlad Manoah got the side on Ks. A good start. But man, Eovaldi looks nasty, looks like he should've had a better career than he has.
Petey Baseball - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#400030) #
Should have bunted, Charlie.
lexomatic - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#400031) #
Ha bringing in the lefty vs Tellez? I hope the small sample results continue
Petey Baseball - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#400032) #
Rowdy's swing has just become so long. Those salad days of late 2018 stinging lasers all over the yard seems like a long time ago.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#400033) #
Both Castro and Payamps have been positive surprises thus far, rather outstanding relative to expectations.
bpoz - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#400034) #
Magpie!! This bullpen. Ours, theirs.

We will crush them!!
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#400035) #
He is a beautiful, beautiful boy.
greenfrog - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#400036) #
Oh my lord.
Petey Baseball - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#400037) #
We gotta get this one.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#400038) #
True love. I know the feeling. This is it.
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#400039) #
Gonna hit rewind and watch the last 5min again. Just to hear the crowd die.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#400040) #
My lord that was beautiful.
greenfrog - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#400041) #
Probably the Jays are going to lose anyway but ó that was incredible.
Petey Baseball - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#400042) #
Dolis has just fallen off a cliff.
92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#400043) #
Call that garbage both ways, Blue.
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#400044) #
Come on dolis hold it together.
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#400045) #
Ah well, at least we have vladdy.
hypobole - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#400046) #
Well that enjoyment was short-lived. Anyway props to Manoah, Payamps and Vladdy.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#400047) #
I'm putting up the Yankees thread in a minute or two. 300 comments? Yikes!
Eephus - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#400048) #
Montoyo is going to have to eventually figure out the Red Sox just own Dolis. That must be the most predictable walk-off win I can remember.

Fun game though. Manoah is (cliche alert) such a competitor out there it's very fun to watch. And this Guerrero guy is pretty good also. This Boston team, beyond their four good hitters and Barnes, does not impress me at all.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#400049) #
Better to lose quickly than to waste the bullpen for a couple of extra innings. \
Nice of Vladdy to remove the L from Manoah who didn't deserve it.

Boston scored a couple of runs behind bad defensive plays, but the grass was wet and that's how it goes.
Would have been nice to have somebody on the bases for the homer.
Coming in, I would have settled for a split anyway.
Just need to hammer the bad teams starting next weekend.

92-93 - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#400051) #
So Montoyo will use a hot Romano in a 5 run game, but not in a tie game against the heart of the BOS order. Slave to the save.
BlueJayWay - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#400052) #
Coming in I thought a split was an okay outcome, but...jeez.

The Jays outscored them 31-14 and it's hard not to win at least three when doing that. This felt like the first half of 2015 when they won big but couldn't win close games to save their lives.

Now 10-18 in games decided by 1 or 2 runs.
greenfrog - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#400053) #
The Jays should have won the first three games, and they could have won the final game as well.

Obviously the bullpen needs to improve, but the Jays also need to get more production from the bottom half of the lineup (apart from blowout games). Tellez is not performing like a DH (-0.3 WAR entering tonightís game).
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#400054) #
Montoyo is going to have to eventually figure out the Red Sox just own Dolis.

Is it possible they haven't noticed that Dolis now has 1 7.27 ERA against the Red Sox and has allowed more hits and runs to Boston than any other team in the majors?
uglyone - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#400055) #
Perhaps a bit worrying that the only good reliever on the team is a guy the FO inherited. You'd hope they'd have found a handful of reliable guys by now.
Magpie - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#400056) #
The front office hasn't had a problem finding effective relievers. Castro's been just as good as Romano - really, he has - and Payamps has been fine. Thornton's been okay. Phelps was pitching great. So was Merryweather. (Hell, so was Chatwood for six weeks.) Dolis, Hatch and Cole were all fine in the pen last season. That's a lot of guys, enough so that trading Reid-Foley and letting Bass walk shouldn't have been a big loss.

Now if want to blame the front office for so many of these guys hitting the 60 day IL like rain on your wedding day... go for it!
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