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Last days in exile.


The first place Red Sox of Boston will provide the opposition for what should be the last major league games to be played in Buffalo for the foreseeable future.

The Jays and Red Sox have met three times this season, with Boston winning 5 of the 9 games. The story so far:

The Jays ventured into Fenway and split a pair of games with the Red Sox back in April. Xander Bogaerts hit a three-run HR off Hyun-Jin Ryu in the opener, which was all the support Eduardo Rodriguez would require as the Sox won 4-2. The Jays bounced back to defeat Garrett Richards 6-3 the next night behind seven different pitchers (it was a Bullpen Day).

The Sox came down to Dunedin for three games in May, and Ryu pitched his best game of the season, seven innings of four-hitter as the Jays beat Rodriguez 8-0. But the Sox kicked Ross Stripling around for five first inning runs the next day en route to a 7-3 win, with Verdugo, Martinez, and Hernandez all going deep. In the finale, the Red Sox hung one of the year's more deflating losses on the Jays. Given a 2-0 lead, Steven Matz instantly surrendered a five spot to put the Jays down 5-2. But he held the line there, and Jays crawled back into the game, tied it up, and eventually took a 7-5 lead into the ninth inning. But Rafael Dolis gave up a pair of hits, an RBI groundout and a killer two-run homer from J.D. Martinez. And the rest of the bullpen said - "You thought that was bad? Bring on Tampa Bay and we'll show you what's possible!" (The Jays would lose four in a row to the Rays - they blew leads in each of the first three games, and in the finale they first rallied from 5-0 to tie the game, and then they rallied from 7-5 in extra innings to tie the game... and lost in the end anyway. Their sixth loss in a row. Low point of the season, we've all agreed.)

Finally, last month the Jays went into Fenway to play four games. In the opener, they took a 5-1 lead behind Ross Stripling, but Montoyo had a bit of an early hook and it turned out Chatwood hadn't quite recovered his early season form. Mayza stopped the bleeding at 5-4, but Carl Edwards gave up a game-tying homer and Montoyo turned to Rafael Dolis. In the ninth inning, of a tie game, against Boston. So that ended quickly. But Steven Matz beat Boston on Saturday, and the Jays pummelled Martin Perez and Ryan Weber on Sunday. The final was 18-4, and it was glorious, giddy fun. On Monday, Alek Manoah and Nathan Eovaldi hooked up in a dandy pitcher's duel. Vladdy's ninth inning HR off Barnes tied the game at 1-1, but yet again Montoyo turned to Dolis. In the ninth inning, of a tie game, against Boston. It was you, Charlie.

I assume we're all pretty familiar with 2021 Red Sox by now. They score enough runs, fourth best offense in the AL this year. The attack is led by three guys having really good seasons - J.D.Martinez, Xander Bogaerts, and Rafael Devers - and supported by everyone else chipping in. The one spot in the lineup that is decidedly non-threatening is the first baseman, Bobby Dalbec, who is normally pretty bad. But the Jays need to get the same scouting report everybody else has, because Dalbec turns into a Whole Different Person when he faces the Blue Jays (.333/.394/.800, with 3 of his 10 HRs.)† The starting pitching has been good enough, and Nathan Eovaldi has been better than that - the team's real strength on the mound comes from a very deep and very good bullpen.

These days the Sox seem to be trying to decide if Jarren Duran is ready to take over in centre field. Duran's gone 1-6 in his two games so far, after hitting .270/.365/.561 with 15 HRs in 46 games at AAA Worcester. They're high on him for a reason, I guess. This would free Enrique Hernandez to fill in all over the diamond, which would be useful. The Red Sox have a lousy bench and they've been blessed with remarkably good health so far this season. Which is the sort of thing that can change at any moment.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I do not expect to see Rafael Dolis anywhere near the Buffalo mound in the ninth inning, if the game is close, against this Boston outfit. Just a feeling I have. But it appears that Dolis has come to occupy a somewhat different spot in the bullpen pecking order than he did in the Olden Days, of 2020 and earlier this year. Did you notice that he was the first guy called on yesterday, with the Jays ahead by ten runs. There's more! Dolis has lost 9 games in his brief major league career. The only AL team to beat him is Boston, but they've done so 3 times. Dolis has given up just 8 HRs in his brief major league career. And guess what? The only AL team to to take him deep would be the Red Sox, who have done so - 3 times. Along with losses and HRs, Dolis has also given up more Hits and Runs against Boston than any other team in the two leagues. The Red Sox even have 3 of the 5 bases stolen while he's been on the mound in his brief major league career.


Matchups....

Mon July 19 - Pivetta (7-4, 4.30) vs Stripling (3-5, 4.34)
Tue July 20 - Richards (5-5, 4.91) vs Hatch (---,-.--)
Wed July 21 - Houck (0-2, 3.38) vs Ray (8-4, 2.93)
Red Sox at Blue Jays, July 19-21 | 252 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Chuck - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#402820) #
The one spot in the lineup that is decidedly non-threatening is the first baseman, Bobby Dalbec, who is normally pretty bad.

Anthony Rizzo would slide in nicely, here.

uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#402821) #
OK jays don't mess this up.

Time to crush these frauds.
scottt - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#402823) #
It just occurred to me how similar Stripling and Pivetta are.
Not just the ERA, the delivery, the pitching style, etc
They are both guys who didn't quite made the cut with their original team.

uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#402824) #
Hatch up.
Magpie - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#402825) #
Hatch replaces Manoah (10 day IL, back contusion.) Breyvic Valera is also out, on the family emergency list (Jonathan Davis lives another day.) And Anthony Castro has no longer been optioned to Buffalo - he's also on the 10 day IL with "right ulnar nerve irritation."
Gerry - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#402826) #
Manoah tripped on some steps last week and hurt his back so he is on the IL. Hatch replaces him. Hatch or Kay to start tomorrow.

Breyvic Valera, just called up, has gone on emergency family medical leave so Jonathan Davis is back. Bad timing for Valera.
Magpie - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#402827) #
[Stripling and Pivetta] are both guys who didn't quite made the cut with their original team.

The biggest difference is that Stripling actually pitched pretty well for the Dodgers, although he had some trouble cracking that rotation. And Pivetta pitched pretty badly for the Phillies.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#402828) #
Way to go, stripling.

Please trade for some pitchers.
Mike Green - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#402829) #
That throw from Springer reminded me of one of Bautista's post-shoulder injury. 
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#402830) #
Meatball city here.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#402831) #
Please pull him. Keep the lead at 2.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#402832) #
Too late.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#402833) #
Fricken meatball.
Hodgie - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#402834) #
Ross Stripling trying his very best to make Dolis feel better about his struggles against the Red Sox.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#402835) #
I see our clutch hitting is letting us down again.
greenfrog - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#402836) #
ďTime to crush these fraudsĒ

Might want to pass on the trash talk next time, uglyone.

Chuck - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#402837) #
This should help with the Pythagoras.
Magpie - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#402838) #
Uncle.
Mike Green - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#402839) #
Too early, Magpie.  Patience.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#402840) #
We should trade Kay and SWR for Stroman.
greenfrog - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#402841) #
No mas.
greenfrog - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#402842) #
On the plus side, the Jays may be correcting the Pythagorean issue theyíve been having this season.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#402843) #
I am still boggled by the prospect hype Kay had.
Mike Green - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#402844) #
OK, Magpie.  Uncle.
Spifficus - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#402845) #

On the plus side, the Jays may be correcting the Pythagorean issue theyíve been having this season.

They don't have to do it all at once - there's plenty of season left.

Thomas - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#402846) #
I would take the last three months of Stripling since he reinvented himself. However, tonight is where his karma debt is paid.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#402847) #
1:20 to finish 2 innings but it feels even longer.
Nigel - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#402848) #
Nights like tonight are best shrugged off and forgotten. However, if it leads to a Payamps for Kay swap, I think that would result in a marginal upgrade for the pen. I donít think Payamps is any great shakes but Iíve never understood the appeal of Kay other than his handedness.
Chuck - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#402849) #
Seven guys bat 3 times before McGuire bats once.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#402850) #
The bullpen could be upgraded.

But....last 2yrs....

Matz: 25gms, 4.5ip/gm, 135era-, 120fip-, 89xfip-
Stripling: 27gms, 4.6ip/gm, 112era-, 129fip-, 106xfip-
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#402851) #
Utter humiliation in the biggest game of the year.

mathesond - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#402852) #
That's ok, U. There will be other biggest games of the year. Maybe even as soon as tomorrow!
greenfrog - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#402853) #
The Jays utterly crushed Boston in Fenway earlier this year. It was just one game. Boston is still cruising atop the AL East. The Jays could win the next couple and it would be a successful series.

The Jays are a good team with some significant flaws. They still need a few more pieces before they can be considered a championship-calibre team.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#402854) #
One run at a time boys!
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#402855) #
2 runs per inning will do it!
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#402856) #
Come on vladito!
scottt - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#402857) #
The worse, by far, is watching this while listening to Pat and Buck.

Let's be unpredictable, throw a high fastball.
Follows a grand slam on a high fastball.

That's the definition of predictable.
Pat was expecting it and so was Renfroe.

They're going to come back.
Very unlikely.

Kay needs to save the pen here.
The pen does not need saving, but it would suck to have to use high leverage guys to finish this game.
Can Davis pitch a couple of innings?

Kay does not get out of the second inning.
He started throwing a cutter, which he was overusing.
Now he's put that away and he's using a slider.
Like Thornton, he's not able to do what you'd expect from a long relief guy.
Should be sent down after the game.
Castro is on the IL, by the way, so one of Thornton, Murphy or Zeuch.

Barnes is not doing much for me.
Richards just gave up a home run and I think I'll go to bed early.


uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#402858) #
Dang.

Nice energy tho.

If our pitchers can hold it together for a couple innings we make a game of it yet.

Big if tho.
Spifficus - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#402859) #
Yeah, they really do torture the ears when things aren't going well, and that's going to happen quite a few times in the run of a year.

Setting aside the radio part of things, I'd prefer "When things got out of hand early, we'd break out the hot foot" or some other such old-timey stories. Anything's better than lines that sound like they're programmed into a sound board.
Chuck - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#402860) #
Four easy letters. M. U. T. E.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#402861) #
Boys are still playing. Good to see.
tercet - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#402862) #
How long do you guys think the rope is on Anthony Kay?
Is it not crazy to think he could be dfa'ed soon when more of the 40man crunch unwinds?
Gerry - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#402864) #
Kay down tomorrow, Patrick Murphy up?

Kasi - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#402865) #
Probably. They want an extra arm in there in case. Thankfully arms got plenty of rest on the weekend. Oddly enough the Sox used their second best reliever in the ninth as well.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#402866) #
Kay was terrible in AAA, is terrible in MLB. Had one good year in AA at the ripe old age of 24.
PeterG - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#402867) #
Kay won't be DFA. He pitched well in a few 4 inning stints but has been inactive of late and consequently was not sharp. He should have been starting in AAA the last couple weeks and that's what he needs to do now. He has not had that much experiece at the AAA level. So, while he will be demoted, he is nowhere near being DFA.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#402868) #
Trade for a legit SP already.
tercet - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#402869) #
As ugly mentioned, Kay has had plenty of opportunities, he has been terrible in 19, 20 and now 21, while putting up mediocre AAA numbers. He or Luciano are at the top of the DFA chart for me imo.
Chuck - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#402870) #
Good times just continue for the Rangers. Third straight game they have been shutout. In the past four games they have been outscored 39-2. What's old Mr. Pythagoras gonna say about that?
Spifficus - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#402871) #
Barnes or Davis are ahead of Kay or Luciano (or Zeuch) for me in the DFA lottery game.
uglyone - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#402872) #

Kay AAA (24-26): 17gs, 4.7ip/gm, 23.1k%, 11.1b%, 5.29era, 5.22fip
Kay MLB (24-26): 27gs, 2.5ip/gm, 23.9k%, 11.1b%, 5.51era, 4.72fip

He ain't good.
Spifficus - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#402873) #
I was far more on the 'damning' part than the 'faint praise' part, but I'm not going to move him to the top of my dump list as a punishment for a particularly bad game.

In the end, he's as fungible as Barnes, with one notable exception - he hasn't been moved to a single inning relief role yet to see if his stuff or command improves.
tercet - Monday, July 19 2021 @ 11:38 PM EDT (#402874) #
Well just it seems like he has run out of chances, and is near the chopping block instead of being a 'piece of the future'.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#402876) #
I've reached the end of my rope with Anthony Kay.  If I ran the team he'd be in AAA ASAP and would stay there until he does something noteworthy.  11 games this year, 0 runs allowed in 4 of them, 3 very good games (4 IP, 5 IP, 4 IP) 2 of which were starts.  the other he faced just 4 batters.  The other 7 games he allowed 21 ER in just 20 innings.  Ugh.  Combined that is 33 2/3 IP this season with a 5.61 ERA via 7 home runs and 18 walks.  You can't be in the majors doing that, you just can't unless you are on a last place team.

Yeah, Stripling had a bad game, it happens, the frustrating thing is since his 7 shutout inning game he now has 3 bad games, including each of the last 2 (vs Tampa and Boston).  He is probably the weak link in the rotation now, but would I shift him to the pen immediately?  No.  He has 1 or 2 more starts before the trade deadline, lets see how he does and if he doesn't get back to form he can move to the pen as the long man and the Jays can hunt down another starter.

No question someone has to come up for tomorrows game (today now I guess).  So who comes up?  40 man options: Luciano, Murphy, Thornton, Zeuch - all on 40 man and not on IL (Pearson is hurt of course).  Murphy pitched Sunday (2 innings) so not him, Thornton did 1 inning so he is unlikely but possible, Zeuch on Saturday (now in the pen) for 1 inning and has a 4.03 ERA in AAA to go with his 6.60 in the majors, Luciano hasn't been up this year or last 3.51 ERA in AA just over 3 innings per start (not so good), just 1 inning on the 18th.  Can't find any reason why he came out, but no sign of him being put on the IL so maybe he is OK - if so he might be ideal to call up, from June 19th to now (came off IL that day) he has 19 2/3 IP 3.20 ERA 9 BB 17 SO not great but not bad either and right now that is what the Jays need, decent and able to go 3 innings.
pooks137 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 01:39 AM EDT (#402877) #
However, if it leads to a Payamps for Kay swap, I think that would result in a marginal upgrade for the pen. I donít think Payamps is any great shakes but Iíve never understood the appeal of Kay other than his handedness.

Payamps, surprisingly enough, was quietly DFAed over the ASB to make room for Ryan Borucki returning from rehab.

scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:16 AM EDT (#402879) #
They hung on to Davis, maybe they like his attitude, and DFAed Allgeyer and Payamps, guys who can be rotated in and out of the long relief role.

Chuck - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:03 AM EDT (#402880) #
Given Springer's injury history, recent and historic, I believe that Grichuk and Davis will get special treatment from the organization since they are the Plan B and C center fielders.

Keeping Davis means, at least theoretically, that you can consider trading Grichuk, though Davis' offense doesn't play in MLB and his small sample defense this year has not been great. Ideally, you don't want to carry a guy like Davis on an MLB roster, but moving Grichuk would necessitate this, I believe.

Should Grichuk not get moved by the deadline, then I think Davis' spot on the 40 will be in jeopardy, because at that point you're committing to continuing with Grichuk as your backup CF.

Chuck - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#402881) #
Could these two be any more identical?

Bichette 295/343/477
Hernandez 295/342/477

scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#402882) #
Yet, 2 very different players.

I would expect Hernandez to be walking more than Bichette.

scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#402883) #
You can't really compare Grichuk and Davis.

Grichuk is a solid 2-3 WAR player.
Davis is a replacement player.

Davis can run, but he hasn't been that  good defensively nor has he been particularly good at stealing bases.
He was a surprise opening day bench player.
At this point he's just a placeholder until they activate Dickerson, unless they already give up on Palacios, but then Davis would have to be sent down anyway.

Josh has some bloodlines of his own, being the nephew of Rey Palacios, a backup catcher with the Royals over 25 years ago. He was the 4th rounder in the 2016 draft, 2 spots behind Bichette and one spot in front of Biggio.
However, he was injured for a large part of the year.

Chuck - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#402884) #
You can't really compare Grichuk and Davis.

Has someone around here done that?

Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#402886) #
Well, that was rather gruesome. Hopefully the Jays Care fundraiser was not ruined by the audience having tuned out so early. I watched King Kong (1933) instead.
mathesond - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#402887) #
I tuned out before the end of the top of the first. Jeopardy and mid-90s Simpsons, along with a couple of crossword puzzles, filled my evening.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#402888) #
Keeping Davis means, at least theoretically, that you can consider trading Grichuk.

Keeping Davis only means that you have a replacement player already on the bench instead of having to promote one or pick one up on waivers, potentially better players get DFAed every week.
He's been worth -0.4 WAR over 4 years, -0.2 this year.
I think Davis is still with the team because he came up the current core.
That would be fine if he was a high school player, but he came from the university of Arkansas.
Only Springer and Semien are older than him.

To compare, to estimate, to measure or to note the similarity or dissimilarity between.
Not the same as equating.
 
A defensive center fielder might be valuable on this team, but the guy should bat left, be able to bunt for a hit reliably (hitting .300, OBP .400 in those situations), steal a base with a 90%+ success rate and actually be a top defender.
I'm surprised that it is so hard to develop such a player.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#402890) #
Yeah, last night made me glad I got my milb TV. Managed to watch 2 games. FWIW, Kevin Smith seems he can play defence. But I wouldn't count on any of the Fisher Cat kids playing 3rd in the majors anytime soon.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#402891) #
Posted this in the minors thread:

Orelvis is #1 on BA's latest Prospect Hot Sheet. He hit .500/.563/1.357 for the week with 7 HR. BA notes that each of his three home runs on July 17 "had exit velocities of 100 mph or better."

Kevin Smith (.500/.538/1.042 on the week) is #9 on the list. His offensive stats in AAA "look a lot like they did when he was bashing home runs in 2018."
rafael - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#402893) #
NY Times did an analysis of which pitchers most affected by the sticky substance cheching: I think they have a few free articles for everyone before subscription.. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/07/19/upshot/major-league-baseball-spin-rate-shift.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage you'd think from Jays not cracking top ten for reduced spin rate that we would do well against Boston and maybe last night was just a blip. Whens Garret Richards (number 2) up ? ..and good thing we didn't stretch for Bauer (number 1) for even more reasons
hypobole - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#402894) #
"I'm surprised that it is so hard to develop such a player."

And I'm speechless.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#402895) #
Final Jeopardy! was even more frustrating than the ballgame... I was reading about the Hawaiian Islands just last week!

Of all things, I also learned that Roy Hartsfield managed the Hawaii Islanders to the PCL Championship in 1975 and 1976.

mathesond - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#402897) #
Ha, I got the Hawaii part right, but guessed "Attu" for the other island - must have been the influence of crosswords puzzles from years gone by.

Very cool about Hartsfield! I had no idea Hawaii had a PCL team...ever
92-93 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#402898) #
Aren't the Jays affiliates off on Mondays? Presumably you mean Smith looked solid at SS, while Capra and Groshans didn't look good defensively?
pooks137 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#402901) #
I think Davis is still with the team because he came up the current core.

Davis survives on the 40-man because he still has an option this year. He's also likely on his ninth life since Josh Palacios is hurt in the minors and stuck in 40-man purgatory since his spot can't be opened up with a 60-day IL stint for either bureaucratic or tightfistedness reasons.

hypobole - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#402902) #
92-93. I'm only watching games after they are archived.

What I do is bring up gameday in one tab, which details each play, and the game in another. I then skip forward in the game to only watch plays involving prospects, like Smith, Groshans, Martin, Moreno, Lopez, Taylor and yes Capra.

I'm only at about 6 games in total, so very SSS, but Smith at short made a couple of nice plays coming in on slow rollers. Capra clanked a couple of balls off his glove and short-hopped a throw wide of 1st. Groshans at SS threw away a ball he should have eaten. Taylor botched a DP when he dropped the transfer at 2nd.

Only saw 1 really excellent play with Lopez racing into CF from 2nd to snag a texas leaguer over his shoulder. Moreno looked good, nailing a supposedly good basestealer. Throw a bit high, but strong and accurate otherwise. Also almost picked a guy off 1st with a strong throw.

And a couple of games where everything seemed to be hit right at the fielders.




Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#402903) #
I recently watched a two-part episode of Hawaii Five-O (1971, "The Grandstand Play") that involves a fictional famous player's son witnessing a crime on the ballpark concourse. Some real game footage is fun to see.

Incidentally, I also saw an episode of The Flying Nun (1969, "The Big Game") with special guest stars Don Drysdale and Willie Davis, both in-uniform. Long before my time, but a little nostalgia for those inclined.

bpoz - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#402904) #
Thanks hypobole. You will be able to better understand who is good. We will need good defense in 2022 and forward. Cannot give 4 outs in the ML if we want to win championships.

I take it you were not too impressed by our pitchers. Actually the way you watch the games you are not looking at pitcher performance using the eye test. Thanks again.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#402905) #
The Rays have had Kiermaier in that role for a long time, so they haven't had the need to develop another one, but they always have several guys who came close. The Yankees have had Gardner for a long time as well and traded for Locastro. Boston had Bradley Jr, but now have loaded up on utility players like Kike Hernandez.

The Jays have signed several toolsy outfielders in that mold, the latest one of note being Dasan Brown (who bats right). Some have looked at least interesting in AAA. Pompey could steal a base, is actually younger than Davis and was by all metrics more useful, but seems to not get along with the coaches in the end.

So, yes, I'm surprised that they can't develop a useful role player instead of focusing on guys who look like they could have a breakout season and become regulars.

cascando - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#402906) #
Grichuk is a solid 2-3 WAR player.

Is he though? Three years ago, maybe. This year he's on pace for about 1.8 WAR. Last year he was worth 0.4 WAR in the shortened season (pace works out to about 1.0). The year before 0.7 in a full season. I don't think you can call him a solid 2-3 WAR player if it takes him three seasons to accumulate just over 3 WAR.

Of course Grichuk and Davis are nothing alike. However, I think Davis would be able to produce at least that much value playing every day. His offensive numbers would probably improve a bit and he'd likely bring significant defensive value. He won't get a chance though if he can't hit in small samples.
jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#402907) #
Grichuks' consistentcy, in quotes, is still important though.  The org can count on him to fairly consistently Grichuk away.  had to look up how to spell his name - ya know?  btw, why do so many people google his wedding?  seriously people
jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#402908) #
Frankly, if the FO views Grichuk as 'the floor' to this OF, I'm cool with that.  I think we get the most perfectly mediocre contract for the most perfectly mediocre player.  Perfect.
92-93 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#402909) #
Thanks hypobole and keep em coming. We can all look up MiLB stat lines but itís always nice to hear from somebody who actually watches the games.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#402910) #
The Rays have had Kiermaier in that role for a long time, so they haven't had the need to develop another one, but they always have several guys who came close.
Kiermaier has a lifetime BA of 250, OBP of 300, SB success rate of 77%. I believe you were asking for BA 300, OBP 400, SBS 90% - he doesn't seem to remotely fit your required parameters.

I think the "speechless" comment from someone else is because a player who can bunt for a hit, 300 BA, 400 OBP, and steal 90% successfully is, well, a superstar?
Aside from being right-handed, you're asking us to "develop" Rickey Henderson (lifetime BA: 280, OBP: 400 SBS: 80%) as a fourth outfielder.  
If you were to go with BA 250, OBP 333, SBS: 70%, that would seem a bit more realistic.
jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#402911) #
Yeah, for real, hypo and the rest of the crew round here.  Grichuk is the floor, but this crew is front of rotation.  best online, IMO.  even though I disagree with a bunch of em most of the time. 
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#402912) #
Stripling said he was in a "weird mental space" because he's going to have to say goodbye to his family for 2 months
"which is weighting on me me much harder than I want it to be."

I suppose he doesn't get paid enough to rent multiple apartments or his family isn't vaccinated.

"Making three moves in a season is crazy...  We don't need people giving us the benefit of the doubt."

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-big-weekend-momentum-hits-wall-thumping-red-sox/



Paul D - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#402913) #
Scott, that seems needlessly cruel. Maybe his kids are starting school in August (frequent in the States) or have other reasons not to move at the moment. The Blue jays have had an added level of difficulty this year.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#402914) #
He's saying he wanted to stay in Buffalo and he's sending his family back to Texas when there are basically no restriction for fully vaccinated people.

Sorry, but I don't think his plight is unbearable when I've had Covid from my wife who caught it at the retirement home where she works and where over 40% of the residents have died.

His son is 5 month old. No school involved.

"Most guys just close the door on a hotel room here in Buffalo, drive an hour north and it's perfect. There are a couple of us that have families and I believe almost all of us, our families are not coming."

Davis' wife just had a baby. Hernandez. Semien. Vlad has a bunch of kids. Springer has at least one son. A bunch of the older relievers have kids.

jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#402916) #
Scott man, right after I post about how awesome the comments and commenters are round here, usually you too, but dude. 

bro.  mental health sucks.  he's talking about it in public, directly, indirectly, whatever.  that is objectively positive for the discussion.  as in, why argue?  not, you can't argue.  but why?  it just feels cruel to argue, like the previous poster said, and frankly I'd rather be 'kind' than 'right' on this one. 

and for real man.  your circumstances are tough.  worse than most millionaires, by far.  you are talking about in public too, so props to you man, even if I strongly disagree with your point.
and I hope you guys keep toughing it out man.  respect.  my mom passed right before the pandemic, I know those homes well, and honestly feel that it's better that she passed before the pandemic hit.
Thomas - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#402917) #
I don't think he's saying his plight is unbearable. He's saying it's challenging for the players to move their home stadium three times in a year, in addition to all of the road travel, and that it gets even harder when most families have made the decision not to come to Canada this summer (for whatever personal reasons there are in each case, they are valid for that family).

His comment was explicitly saying he's not asking for sympathy, just understanding that he, and other ballplayers, are facing challenges with the move back to Toronto, notwithstanding all the positivity associated with it as well.
jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#402918) #
and like, moving is one of the top ten most traumatic experiences in life or something right?  moving sucksss
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#402919) #
Ross Stripling's a big boy and he's being paid a lot of money. He's got to suck it up and get on with his job. He knows that. But please - don't anybody think it's easy. He's been a father for five months and he's going to miss the next two.

Back in the olden times, the Jays would always have one day each season when the players would all bring their kids to the ball park and they'd get to play a little ball on a major league field. Players would toss whiffle balls to their kids from ten feet away and they'd hit it and run around the bases. Ball players are mostly young people and they generally have very young children, but there'd always be one 10 year old kid who carried on like it was the seventh game of the World Series.

But this team is so young, it's not worth the trouble. What kids these guys have tend to be two and three year olds. Robbie Ray's got a five-year old, who might be the oldest junior Jay.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#402920) #
Vlad has a bunch of kids.

Pretty sure you're thinking of Vlad Senior there, unless Junior has a lot more Brian Jones to his game than I suspected.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#402922) #
Most of these ballplayers have young kids and financial security.
Several players become father during the regular season and only get 2 or 3 days off.
I bet most players choose to have their wife deliver in the US rather than in Toronto, for many reasons.
All considered, it's probably harder for the non-US players.

I wouldn't go so far as talking about mental health here.
He's just annoyed. At having to move, but also at the media crew celebrating the move to Toronto.
He's one of those Jays who have never pitched in Toronto.
It sounds like he's just venting.
Chances are by next year, he won't be dwelling on those 2 months in Toronto, but if the Jays win the division, he'll have stuff to dwell on for the rest of his life.
I'm fully expecting him to bounce back, but not quite sure how long that will take.

But overall, it's interesting to know that there is at least one guy who is not happy to go play at the RC.

Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#402923) #
most families have made the decision not to come to Canada this summer

Strictly speaking, I think that decision had already been made for them by the federal government. Until yesterday, the border was closed. Now it's going to open up to Americans, three weeks from now. But certainly, nobody's children are vaccinated, because who's vaccinating two year olds?

There was one thing Stripling said that really resonated with me, after he said that they all knew what they were letting themselves in for, that they all had accepted that this was how it was going to be:

Itís been more difficult for me in the last couple of days than I thought it was going to be.

It's very much the universal observation of all new fathers: I had no idea!
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#402924) #
I know Vladdy has 2 daughters. I'd be shocked if he stopped having kids before having a son.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#402925) #
Well then. Junior's not even in the same ball park as Brian Jones.

Everyone gets their own mileage but Stripling didn't sound annoyed to me, or like he was venting. He sounded like he was hurting, more than he expected to.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#402926) #
It's probably a lot easier for Semien, Springer, Ray and anybody who signed with the Jays over the winter than for anyone who got traded.

By early August, unvaccinated children under 12 will be allowed in as long as they are US citizens or permanent US residents.

Cracka - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#402928) #
I expect a transaction for Alejandro Kirk in the next day or two. He has now exceeded the maximum 20 days on a rehab assignment (per MLB CBA page 102), so I think they'll need to activate him from the 60-day IL, which will require another transaction. One option could be moving Corey Dickerson to the 60 day IL, but that would keep him out until August 13th and he's close to beginning a rehab assignment.

Also sounds like good news re: Nate Pearson, who will begin throwing and should be a bullpen option sometime in August.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#402929) #
I honestly don't get why anyone who is a US citizen would feel it is vital to have their kid in the US when they play for the Jays.  Being born in Canada gives the kid dual citizenship automatically (with US parents - just ask a Texas senator who was born in Canada but dreams of being president).  Vlad was born here, which gives him the option of Canada or Dominican passports, he can live in either nation with no issues, etc.  Lots of benefits to having dual citizenship, few downsides (honestly can't think of any beyond maybe needing to cancel one if you get deep into politics).

Now, maybe Stripling's wife is like Storm Davis' one - she kept him from signing here in the 80's (thankfully - he won 19 with an 85 ERA+, but the media was determined he was needed for the Jays as he 'knew how to win' 21-34 record after with a 92 ERA+) - she thought Canada was all French people and covered in snow and the fact her husband could make millions more by coming here was irrelevant to her.  In the end you need to do what is best for your family.  Maybe this encourages the Jays to make him part of a trade to upgrade the rotation.  Maybe.  But when he is on (as he was for over a month) he is damn good, when he is off he sucks.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#402930) #
Ostensibly, Covid-19 PPE and family planning PPE are mutually exclusive.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#402931) #
I dunno. If you lived in Houston and your husband had spent one month in Buffalo playing for a team ostensibly based in Toronto, would you go to Toronto in February so your child could have dual citizenship? Would you discuss it with your doctor first? Would it even occur to you?
Michael - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#402932) #
Vlad's daughters are Vlymil and Vlyshil. See https://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2020/08/cutouts-toronto-blue-jays-family-members-buffalo/ for an article about how the cutout fans in Buffalo last year included photos of family members of the players.
Thomas - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#402933) #
I dunno. If you lived in Houston and your husband had spent one month in Buffalo playing for a team ostensibly based in Toronto, would you go to Toronto in February so your child could have dual citizenship? Would you discuss it with your doctor first? Would it even occur to you?

This. There are A LOT more reasonable explanations for this than Stripling's wife is uneducated and ignorant.

scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#402934) #
I bet the fist son will be Vlad the third.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#402935) #
It seems to me like it will be fairly open borders for US residents, but not for Dominicans or Koreans.
There are way more than a couple of players with kids.

Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#402936) #
I've got relatives coming over from the Old Country in a few weeks. There will be unvaccinated toddlers among them, and as of right now they're expected to quarantine themselves for 14 days.

It's hard to be sure just how many kids this team has, because I'm pretty sure the official website doesn't care how current its information might be. As far as I can tell Robbie Ray and Marcus Semien have three kids each, all five and younger. Vlad has the two daughters and Teoscar has at least two as well. Ryu, Davis, Stripling, Springer all have kids born within the last year. As far as I can tell, it's the first for each.

Cimber, Matz, Richards, Jansen, Grichuk all have wives referred to in the literature but no mention of offspring. The other half of the team appears to be Footloose and Fancy Free.

Oh, and David Phelps has three kids, Kirby Yates has two, Tyler Chatwood at least one.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#402937) #
Query. I've just started watching Ted Lasso and I've only seen the first episode. Can someone tell me what the hell Stripling is talking about when he says he's going to be a goldfish?
electric carrot - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#402938) #
What about just giving a little room for people to be their own selves and not the people you would ideally manufacture if the world let you create people who comported exactly with your values and aligned just right with how you have suffered or not suffered.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#402939) #
I was under the impression that Bill Wyman was much more prolific than Brian Jones.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#402940) #
In the long run, probably - he has lived 60 more years - but it would be hard to get started sooner than Brian.
Mike Green - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#402941) #
My own philosophy during the pandemic has been to practice, with  very few exceptions, radical forgiveness.  Almost everyone is hurting in ways big and small. The simplest thing is just a pain in the ass these days, and it wears on people.  So, if Ross Stripling says that all the moving associated with the pandemic and the border is hard on himself and his family, I believe him and empathize.  Sure, it's not like being a front-like worker in a makeshift field hospital or something, but I don't care.  Measuring the level of hurt from annoyance to anxiety to sheer terror doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#402942) #
I was more running over a possible explanation.  Not the #1 likely one.  Just one that came to mind right away as it seemed so odd at the time but perfectly explained why the Jays have to give an extra year or more cash to get free agents to come here.  Americans know virtually nothing about Canada as a general rule.  Much like how many in Toronto know little about anything outside of the GTA.  No need to.  Odds are Stripling's wife had no interest in coming to Canada and was thankful the Jays played in Buffalo last year and for a big part of this year.  She might be settled in there, or wants to go back to their long term home.  No problem with that.  Stripling just has to accept that is how it is if he wants to be a major leaguer.  Much like how politicians will spend big chunks of their lives away from family, or oil rig workers, or even single parents making minimum wage at 2 full time jobs trying to make ends meet (thus rarely see their kids for more than a few minutes between shifts).  He hardly has it hardest of many, but it would weigh on him.  Can easily see why players want no-trade clauses and why the 5 & 10 rule is a strong one (10 years of experience, 5 with current team = automatic no trade clause).

If there is a fear this will be a big issue going forward the Jays really should look at trading him - he has value.  Ideally to a Texas team - Trade Simulator says an Kennedy for Stripling deal would work.  But I'd only see that if the Jays found another starter.  Maybe Hatch can do the job, maybe a different trade.  But if Stripling is not going to be an effective starter than Kennedy would be more useful even if he is a free agent after this season while Stripling isn't.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#402945) #
Stripling just has to accept that is how it is if he wants to be a major leaguer.

No it's not. Three different "home" cities in one season is not how it's supposed to be.
mathesond - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#402946) #
"Three different "home" cities in one season is not how it's supposed to be."

Dave Kingman chuckles quietly to himself...
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#402949) #
You've obviously baited me into looking at Kingman's legendary 1977 season!

The Mets traded Kingman to San Diego in June. The Angels claimed him off waivers in early September and he went into the lineup to play six home games in four days against the White Sox. How did that happen? They had played the White Sox twice in four days in April, so two of the six September games must have been making up for games missed in April. It never rains in southern California, but apparently one of the April games was wiped out by an electrical failure. I don't know about the other. Anyway after 10 games in 8 days with the Angels, they traded him to the Yankees. Both teams were on the road, but Kingman's year finished with three games at the Stadium. So there's your four home parks in one season!
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#402950) #
Lots of benefits to having dual citizenship, few downsides (honestly can't think of any beyond maybe needing to cancel one if you get deep into politics).
Yes and no. My daughters are dual, my wife is US, I'm Canadian. Until I get a little closer to retirement age and/or politics gets a little less wacko, I'm staying Canadian only, because of a thing called dual taxation. I don't pay any taxes to Canada while living here, but if the situation were reversed, I'd have to pay double taxes on a portion of my income, even though I wasn't living in the US.

Now mind you, it's looking less likely I'll return to Canada, but when I started working here 17 years ago, it was a concern, since I had 25-30 working years ahead of me. Just haven't seen much of a reason to change in that time.
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#402951) #
Have  you reviewed the latest rules that starts August 9?

The way I read it, unvaccinated children don't have to quarantine, but must pass tests on day 1 and day 8.

Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#402953) #
I don't know how much sense it makes for the players with families in the US to bring them here on August 9. It would be just in time to say goodbye as the team goes on a three city west coast road trip the next day.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#402954) #
Have you reviewed the latest rules that starts August 9?

I don't know if that was meant for me, but it doesn't apply to my relatives anyway. They're coming over from Ireland.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#402956) #


He said one thing about finding it tough to be away from his family and being in a weird mental space, then he spent the rest of the time complaining about his performance and his ďchallengeĒ of needing to move.

If he wants to advance mental health awareness do this:

ďIím taking time away from baseball to focus on Ö. Because Ö.Ē Thatís what Votto and Greinke did.

Donít do this:

ďIím in a weird place and itís tough to pitch well right now and I got shelled against Boston because itís not normal to have to move 3 times, but donít worry we are playing good and will move on, but itís tough.Ē

I donít think itís fair to paint it as mental health issue unless the player or people around him are aware of it and advancing it.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#402957) #
And tonight's game is rained out.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#402958) #
The makeup game will be in Toronto, split double header on Saturday 7 August.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#402959) #
Very well, tonight's entertainment will be Jackie Chan movies!
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#402960) #
It may be fortunate for the Jays that the game was postponed. Hopefully Manoah will be able to pitch one of the makeup games.
PeterG - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#402961) #
Kirk activated from 60 day IL but will remain in AAA. Kay optioned. Zeuch DFA.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#402962) #
Who had Zeuch in the pool? Not surprising with the way he's pitched, but don't recall anyone mentioning him.
krose - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#402963) #
Over at Bluejaysnation, there is an article saying that Pearson has been suffering from a sports hernia and will now pitch out of the bullpen for this year. What bugs me is the unnecessary BS about groin problems. Why?
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#402964) #
What bugs me is the unnecessary BS about groin problems.

Well, a sports hernia  is "a painful, soft tissue injury that occurs in the groin area. "
johnny was - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#402965) #
Sarah Langs mostly got talked over by Brian Kenny during the last YouTube game I watched, but sheís crushing it in this more conventional, all-female Oís-Rays broadcast. Worth tuning in for an inning or two.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#402966) #
I don't understand the indignation. Sports hernias are often groin problems. What's the BS part?
Spifficus - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#402967) #
Because that can be a symptom of a sports hernia?

(from searching for "How do I know if I have a sports hernia?")

"Sudden and severe groin pain at the time of the injury. Groin pain that goes away with rest, but returns during sports activity."
Spifficus - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#402968) #
Oooh, thanks for the reminder, johnny was. I couldn't remember what night that was on, but when I heard about the all-female ensemble, I wanted to check it out - any woman in the booth that I've heard so far has seemed to excel. With the rainout, it looks like I get that chance.

I think if you remove Kenney from that previous broadcast, that would have been a decent crew.
Chuck - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#402969) #
Can someone tell me what the hell Stripling is talking about when he says he's going to be a goldfish?

Goldfish have a short memory and thus can't dwell on things. Every lap across the fishbowl presents a fresh new start.

krose - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#402970) #
So, a sports hernia is a groin injury? My old-man hernia was a tad more elevated than the groin area. Then again maybe it wasnít of the ďsportĒ variety.
Spifficus - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#402972) #
Old-man hernias are rarely of the sporting variety. Don't worry, my turn is coming, and sooner than I'd like. Probably tomorrow, if the Karma Gods have anything to say about it.

Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#402974) #
Old-man hernias are rarely of the sporting variety.

The very term "sports hernia" is rather misleading, as there's usually no actual hernia involved. Apparently the preferred medical term is "athletic pubalgia" because everybody knows what that means. Or not.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#402975) #
Goldfish have a short memory

I typed "Ted Lasso goldfish" into the YouTube search box and this came up. Delightful.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 20 2021 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#402978) #
Pearson should avoid sports and focus on a pastime. His groin will thank him for it. :)
rtcaino - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#402984) #
I typed "Ted Lasso goldfish" into the YouTube search box and this came up. Delightful.

I highly recommend the show. Only heard about it recently, and it's great.

SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#402991) #
Pearson being used as a reliever for the rest of the season is a good thing for the Jays bullpen. He looked unhittable out of the pen in the Wild Card round against the Rays last year, and he's instantly a high leverage option for the team down the stretch. Then they can put him back as a starter next spring and hope for the best.

I think the Jays caught a huge break with the game being postponed last night. Now they can start Ray on normal rest, avoid having Hatch face the Red Sox, and get an extra home game in Toronto rather than Buffalo.
85bluejay - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#402992) #
Kudos to the FO to risk losing Zeuch (sure he will be traded) by DFAing him - Zeuch is this FO 1st draft pick and to admit it hasn't worked out in a reasonable timeframe is commendable.
scottt - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#402994) #
Pearson will take a little while to get there.
Hatch is here. Is he one of the starter now?

uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#403000) #
Not that zeuch is any loss, but he's younger than Kay and imo has performed better than him in MLB and AAA.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#403002) #
I think the Jays caught a huge break with the game being postponed last night.

In July 1978, the defending champion Yankees limped into Fenway to play two games with the first place Red Sox. The Sox pasted them behind Dennis Eckersley, dropping the Yanks 9 games off the lead. The second game was rained out, and rescheduled for early September. The Yankees lost 8 of their next 10 to fall 14 games back, a stretch that ended with Reggie Jackson being suspended by the team for five games, which was followed less than a week later by Billy Martin being replaced by Bob Lemon.

As history records, the Yankees got insanely hot from that point on. By the time they came back to Fenway to play the rained out game and three more, they'd cut Boston's lead from 14 games to 4 games. They won the Thursday make-up 15-3, and the next three games by scores of 13-2, 7-0, 7-4 to draw even atop the AL East and add the term "Boston Massacre" to baseball's vocabulary. (And things would only get more intense from there!)

A little historical precedent, a little windy baseball lore....
pooks137 - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#403004) #
I'm surprised with the decision to cut Zeuch, but understand the thought process.

Zeuch has strange peripherals that rely on high GB rates, low walks and HR suppression in the minors.

He has a razor thin margin for success with minor league K rates hovering between 4-6K/9.

Somehow in the majors though his walks have skyrocketed and he hasn't been able to suppress HRs at all.

I can see the Jays preferring a guy like Kay with similar middling results, but at least has the potential to strike out a batter per inning.
bpoz - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#403005) #
Nice stroll down memory lane Magpie.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#403009) #
Pooks137: agreed on the reasons. Zeuch at 20 in his first pro year had 10.1 K/9 vs 1.9 BB/9 - neither of which he would reach again as a Jay. His AAA numbers this year are close on the BB/9, but to be a success with his K/9 (5.7 in the majors) he NEEDS a BB/9 of 2 or less, or a HR/9 of well below 1 (it is 1.7 lifetime in the majors and was 0.5 his first 2 pro seasons and climbing ever since).

To have your lower minors numbers be your best isn't odd, but to show no improvement over the years and just declines suggests he will never be better than today. His ML FIP this year was appropriate - 9.11, as you need to be ready to call for help when he pitches.

Now who is next on the DFA list? Kay & Thornton have to be close, maybe Murphy and Davis who in the old days he'd have been an ideal 5th OF - speed and defense but nothing else - but today that is of minimal value.
jerjapan - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#403017) #
Can't see Kay taking the hit first myself.  he can, in theory, start, and is controllable. 

Thornton is likely running out of time.  I feel Saucedo was brought up precisely because he, like Allgeyer, could be DFAed without much risk of losing an asset.  He's been much better than expected, but to me, guys like him and Barnes, Chatwood and Dolis, need to perform or they could be next as well. 

If I ran the team, with the way Chatwood would show up Montoya at times, I'd let him rehab and then he'd be the one to go. 

Davis has been spared just because our bench is so short, but no way he survives if and when Dickerson is ready to go.  Valera has been playing great in AAA and has his supporters, but there are multiple guys who could likely replace him in AAA if you DFA him and he gets claimed. 


hypobole - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#403018) #
Agree with jerjapan's assessment more than any other I've read so far.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#403021) #
Say goodbye to Joel Payamps, off to the Royals for cash.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#403028) #
Can't see Kay taking the hit first myself

Me neither, if for no other reason than the fact that he's left-handed and likely to stay that way. At the very least, I'll expect to see him get a chance to turn into a new Brett Cecil or something like that.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#403031) #
Patrick Murphy has been recalled.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#403034) #
I agree with jerjapan and hypobole. Kayís handedness will keep him around for a while. Having said that, heíd need to start really dominating at AAA for me to get interested in him again. I really donít see much of interest there other than the handedness.
subculture - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#403036) #
I have trouble understanding why Kay's not actually more effective, especially as a lefty who touches 97 and isn't unusually wild. Is it lack of command, and is this likely to improve? I'm hoping Pete Walker can figure this out...
Chuck - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#403038) #
[re Kay] and isn't unusually wild

The 2021 AL rates for HR, BB, K: 1.3, 3.3, 9.3
Kay's career MLB rates: 1.3, 4.8, 9.7

His HR and K rates have been league average. It's his BB rate that's been the problem and perhaps some bad luck with BABIP.

Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#403040) #
a lefty who touches 97

That always makes me think of the words of Ron Gardenhire when asked why one of his hard-throwing prospects wasn't getting people out: "At this level hard, hard, harder just gets hit, hit, hit."
Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#403041) #
Martinez and Tabler were so surprised by Richards throwing changeups that I went diving into the weeds. According to FanGraphs, Richards threw occasional changeups when he came up with the Angels, but basically scrapped it in 2017. And in his very good start against the Jays back in May, exactly zero of his 99 pitches were changeups.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#403042) #
We are terrible.
Kasi - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#403043) #
Richards is hittable and there is still time to make a comeback, but yeah apparently Ray's pants weren't tight enough today.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#403045) #
We are terrible.

Nah. Now the Diamondbacks... there's terrible.

It looks to me like the Jays' hitters simply aren't recognizing the slider out of Richards' hand. They're swinging at it like it's his fastball. And of course they've never seen him throw a changeup before.
Polite Nate - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#403046) #
They talked a bit about it during the pre-game show. Apparently , Richards has done a bit of rebuilding of his repertoire to adapt to a post-stickygate world. I suspect that throws a lot of the advance scouting out the window, would not be surprised if Richards gets a bit of a bounce back until teams adjust back. I'd have a quick hook on him if I were Cora.
Chuck - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#403047) #
Richards is channeling Doyle Alexander and Ray is reverting to early season gopheritis. Nothing is ever a sure thing, especially in baseball.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#403048) #
Ryu is still the only SP we can trust in big games and he's getting older by the minute.
Kasi - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#403049) #
Not going to win many games scoring 1 run. There is still 4 innings left to go and Boston is certainly hittable, just have to do it.
Polite Nate - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#403050) #
I mean, I remember the biggest game Ryu pitched last year and it didn't go so great...
When Boston is on like this I'm always convinced pitchers are tipping. Swings that look like they know what's coming. Pure irrational thinking on my part. But in my heart of hearts Boston is the team I bet on being the next sign stealing scandal.
As I type this, finally, Vasquez scores a run with some good old fashioned BABIP luck. Thank you! Restore some sanity to the world.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#403051) #
Not going to win many games when your starter gives up runs every inning.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#403052) #
Especially when your offense puts up zeroes every inning.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#403053) #
Boy, I sure timed that comment right!
Kasi - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#403054) #
Boston seems to have won a number of those type of games this year. Pretty much describes the difference in win-loss records. If this offense is elite then they should be able to do it. Anyway whatever Richards is doing seems to be totally confusing the Jays like Magpie says.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#403055) #
Now effing hold the fort for a couple innings, pitchers.
Kasi - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#403056) #
And just when we say this the Jays bats show up and make it a game again. I said before this series I think the Jays are better, now they need to show it over the next 3 innings.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#403057) #
Elite clutch offense with a bunch of two out runs for 4 in less than 6 innings but the team trails because their #2 SP can't stop getting smacked by weak bottom order hitters.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#403058) #
Is it really clutch, though, if it happens before the 7th inning?
Chuck - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#403059) #
Is it really clutch, though, if it happens before the 7th inning?

Depends. Is there anyone in the forest to see it?

Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#403060) #
Marcus Semien has two career at bats against Whitlock. Home Run, Single.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#403061) #
Romano needs the work and there could even be a save opportunity in the ninth if the Jays get a couple of runs next inning. But Boston's three best hitters are coming up right now. Do we call this Screw the Save?
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#403062) #
Montoya managing to win. I like it.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#403063) #
Yep. We stink.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#403064) #
Hey, don't include me in your odiferousness
John Northey - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#403070) #
So glad that is it for Buffalo 'home' games after how the crowd was a Red Sox one. Ugh. Good thing that rain out was shifted to Toronto instead of being played today.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#403071) #
Yeah. The Red Sox are gonna win the division folks.

Kasi - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#403072) #
To me itís frustrating to see the Sox having Cora and us Montoyo. Not that Montoyo is that bad heís just kinda there as a caretaker. Cora is getting more out of that team and I think right now that only a managerial change is going to kickstart the team.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 21 2021 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#403074) #
Kirk was taken out of the game tonight. It could be to replace Jansen who left the game injured tonight.
jerjapan - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 05:56 AM EDT (#403078) #
Apologies for bringing this topic up again, but I feel it is super important right now to acknowledge mental health issues, and so back to Stripling,
anytime dudes say anything about mental health, they get told not to talk about mental health. 

I think we need to default to just trusting when someone says they are sad, or something, that they are sad.  rich, poor, who cares.  moving sucks, and stripling was thinking about his family, and fuck, he's a highly paid millionaire, but whatever.  sadness is sadness.  condemning rich people who speak about sadness isn't condemning rich people.  it's condemning people who talk about sadness. 

when people tell me they are sad, I listen.  I care.  why is this different for athletes?
pooks137 - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 08:27 AM EDT (#403080) #

I personally think the Stripling example is a poor example of advocating for mental health and broadens the concept to be so vague and all-encompassing that it loses all meaning.

Mental health awareness and advocacy shouldn't confuse clinical conditions with human emotions. Being sad because your employment will keep you from your newborn child for months is a natural reaction and within the range of healthy human emotions.

Intractable sadness lasting more than two weeks accompanied by significant weight/sleep/energy changes, excessive guilt, inability to concentrate, inability to feel joy or thoughts of self-harm is consistent with clinical depression and warrants awareness, empathy and treatment.

Stripling should be celebrated for his honesty and vulnerability in a world of milquetoast athlete soundbites. But I believe he should be commended more so for going against cultural norms of the stoic athlete and robotic male rather than watering down the concept of mental health so that it encompasses any negative human emotion any by doing so, trivializes and obfuscates those who suffer from clinical conditions.

dalimon5 - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#403081) #
Very good points by Pooks, couldnít have said it better myself. I would add though, that the old ďstrong tough maleĒ image of the past no longer is a dominating thing as it was in the past.

ďanytime dudes say anything about mental health, they get told not to talk about mental health. Ē

Jerjapan I donít know where youíre living but my experience is the complete opposite. In Ontario, Quebec and California where I spend my time mental health is front and center along with equality and corporate checking. What is happening today is a big swing towards supporting these issues which were ignored or frowned upon in the past. I canít agree with blanket statements that people are told not to talk about their issues.
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#403082) #
So far in 2021, Ross Stripling has 3 starts versus the Red Sox:

May 19th - 3.2 innings, 6 earned runs.
June 11th - 5.2 innings, 4 earned runs.
July 19th - 0.1 innings, 6 earned runs.

Overall, Stripling has pitched 16 games (15 starts) with a 5.04 ERA.

Excluding those 3 starts versus Boston, that drops to a 3.58 ERA.

* * *

Ross Stripling has pitched 164 games (76 starts) during his MLB career.

May 8th, 2016 at Rogers Centre was his only game versus the Blue Jays:
No-decision, 6 innings, 1 hit, 1 run. (Kevin Pillar doubled and scored.)

In his next start, May 13th, he earned his first career win versus St. Louis.
SK in NJ - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:42 AM EDT (#403084) #
"To me itís frustrating to see the Sox having Cora and us Montoyo. Not that Montoyo is that bad heís just kinda there as a caretaker. Cora is getting more out of that team and I think right now that only a managerial change is going to kickstart the team."


I'll be very disappointed (but not surprised) if Montoyo is managing this team in 2022. He was hired in 2019 likely because no good candidate wanted to take a job on an openly tanking team. He is the lifelong minor league manager a team hires to soak up losses during a rebuilding phase. The 2022 job would look way more appealing to much better candidates.
jgadfly - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#403085) #
sharing Kasi's 'frustration' ... I'm not sure that Cora vs Montoya is the defining factor between Red Sox success and Blue Jay failure ... I get a sense that Varitek, more so than Cora, has played the major role in charting the path to their winning ways. Red Sox batters seemed to have an inside track on Ray and Stripling pitches, both in type and location ... ergo Varitek. who has always been an architect of Blue Jay failure, so much so that he's morphing into, in my mind at least, the Darth Vadar of the Evil Empire.
I don't question either the will or the desire to win of Montoyo/Schneider, as I would not question their desire to play in the major leagues but it seems that the difference between their on field management mojo vs the Red Sox elan is commensurate with how their major league playing careers measure up to a Cora/Varitek resume. I don't know whether a Jason Varitek, if even possible, would lead the Jays to the Promised Land but I'm leaning more towards the sentiment that it's not happening with a Montoyo et al at the helm ... so for my two cents, bump Charlie up to player liaison extraodinaire and hire Darth Varitek


Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#403086) #
He is the lifelong minor league manager

Which is what people would have said about Brian Snitker and Mike Shildt (or Earl Weaver and Joe Maddon before them.) But all of them check the two major boxes for me - they've actually managed somewhere, and they've spent time (as a coach or a player) in a major league dugout.
Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#403088) #
So far in 2021, Ross Stripling has 3 starts versus the Red Sox:

Two of them were certfiable stinkers, but the one in between was actually pretty good. Until Tyler Chatwood came in to get the third out in the sixth inning.
Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#403090) #
the Stripling example is a poor example of advocating for mental health

I would agree that that's simply not what Stripling was discussing - he was talking about what was a difficult situation for him. It's not really the same as what DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Love were talking about.

He is an interesting guy - not too many modern major leaguers actually have jobs away from the game anymore.
electric carrot - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#403094) #
ergo Varitek
Interesting observation jgadfly. I wonder if anyone else here makes of the idea that red sox hitters know what's coming. This series was chastening for me.
If this is Hollywood movie, this is the part where even the most strident fans give up hope except for one or two true believers -- probably a nine years old who notices a problem that all the pros missed. (If only someone would listen!) I'm going to presume jgadfly that you are older than nine but that doesn't mean you won't be in the movie version of this season called, Impossible Dream: How at Team that Believed Won it All.
92-93 - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#403100) #
If you were a team that was cheating by stealing signs, you would probably have a heightened awareness about other teams trying the same. On Sunday night the Red Sox C had the game slightly paused because he was concerned about lights that were flashing in CF while the Yankees were hitting.
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#403101) #
So, Stripling's only game in Canada was over 5 years ago as 26-year-old rookie. (By the way, his son is apparently 5 years old, not 5 months old, as was mentioned earlier.) Anyhow, in the aftermath of Monday's shellacking, at the hands of his nemesis, looking ahead to the next leg of the Blue Jays' odyssey, towards a largely unfamiliar foreign country, and so on & so forth... I think he deserves some leniency.

Nonetheless, playing the mental health card, if you will, has triggered quite a discussion.

Stripling was a 5th round pick in 2012 and signed for $130,000. His salary was less than $600,000 from 2016 through 2019. Last season, he jumped to $2.1 million, pro-rated for 60 games. This year he earns $3 million. He has one more year of arbitration eligibility. He reaches free agency for his age 33 season. Altogether, Stripling has a nice nest egg, but the real big bucks are still pending.

Interestingly, Stripling is a licensed stockbroker with a degree in finance from Texas A&M. In real life, he is a young family man with financial security and a strong mind for investments. In baseball terms, he is a one-time All Star, now middle-aged, with a 5.04 ERA, and only modest career earnings. End of the day, the money issue is not everything, but it is there to consider.

Now then, Stripling is an American en route to Canada. Perhaps occasionally that can be a point of turbulence. I think such concerns are mostly overblown. Stripling is a Texan, if that has any bearing. One thing is for sure: Toronto is nearly 2500 kilometres away.

Mental health has certainly come to the fore. I may well be cynical, but I agree that too many people aim to exploit the concept. Remember the Eaton Centre incident? (Not the 2005 tragedy, rather the event in 2012, where Brett Lawrie was present.) In the subsequent trial, the defendant admitted his actions only to claim that PTSD was the cause. An illustrative example, albeit the most extreme.

Yes, sympathy and understanding towards others is generally the best approach. I am reminded of Atticus Finch:

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."

Kasi - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#403102) #
Due to the Jays having less games played to this point and not being that far behind in the loss column its still possible. But the problem is that there is 2 teams just as far ahead to pass and the Yankees aren't going away either. It's possible but it really requires a winning streak right now.

But this is why I was not convinced coming out of the Texas series. Shutting down that lineup is quite easy and hitting off them as well is also very easy. Both degraded here and we lost both. Maybe the delayed game will be a blessing and in August the Jays will be in a better spot to win it.
Hodgie - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#403103) #
Cora doesn't happen to wear an Apple watch, does he?
Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#403104) #
his son is apparently 5 years old, not 5 months old, as was mentioned earlier.

Not sure where you're getting that from. According to the Jays website, Stripling

Resides in Houston, TX, with his wife, Shelby...Was delayed arriving to 2021 Spring Training with the arrival of his son, Jaxon, on Feb. 19.

This Monday (19 July) Stripling was quoted saying

my son turned 5 months old today
Kasi - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#403105) #
Does it really matter? I have a 6 year old and a 1 year old. Stripling is just saying he's sad to be split up from his family for the next 2 months. That is a totally reasonable take and we shouldn't judge him for it regardless of the age of his kids.
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#403106) #
I stand corrected. Actually, I got it from Keegan Matheson's article on the official website.
Polite Nate - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#403107) #
I don't know that I'd outright accuse them off cheating but I have thought for a few years now that BOS is the team to play if you want to find out if you're tipping pitches. Just my gut feeling.

The scary thing now here is for Stripling. He changed his mechanics and suddenly nobody can touch his 92 mph fastballs down the middle. Could be he figured something out and this is just a random bad outing. Or could be the new mechanics threw everyone's advance scouting out the window and the past month was just a dead cat bounce while the league adjusts back.

As for the manager question, I don't want anything to do with Cora, still has the odor of trash cans on him. Not in love with Montoyo but I'm firmly opposed to mid season firings. Those are for scapegoats, not improvements. Wouldn't shed tears if he was replaced in the offseason, but you could do worse and so it depends on the devil replacing him.
Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#403112) #
I got it from Keegan Matheson

That makes sense. Both writers probably got the quote at the same time, at his locker, with a lot of people and random noise going on around them. If the one word wasn't clear in the room or on tape, and you didn't actually know why Stripling was late for spring training, the natural thing to assume would be fifth birthday.
jerjapan - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#403115) #
First of all, it's awesome to see a bunch of dudes, and I assume we are primarily a bunch of dudes, talking about mental health. 

I personally think the Stripling example is a poor example of advocating for mental health and broadens the concept to be so vague and all-encompassing that it loses all meaning.

I believe he should be commended more so for going against cultural norms of the stoic athlete and robotic male rather than watering down the concept of mental health so that it encompasses any negative human emotion any by doing so, trivializes and obfuscates those who suffer from clinical conditions.
you said it better than I did man. 

Stripling may or may not have been talking about mental health.  But what he was talking about was feeling sad, and men generally are discouraged from even saying that.  So while for sure, Stripling may or may not have been talking about his mental health, but the response - the 'quit bitching' response, that we often see - is still contributing to the problem. 

I canít agree with blanket statements that people are told not to talk about their issues.

Nobody grows up depressed though right?  You experience people and life, and you become depressed.  Sure, the world has gotten way, way better on mental health issues in the past 5-10 years or so.  But despite that change, can you honestly say that men are supported when then struggle emotionally, by all the people in their lives that grew up before mental health became a public issue?  And of course, I sincerely hope nobody here has lived experience with grief / mental health.  I sure do though.  Lost my whole family over the past 7 years.  Had no vocabulary to talk about my issues, and many 'friends' who thought prolonged depression was weakness, not grief.  I lived decades before this hit, and those decades where the formative years - not this current one. 

Mental health has certainly come to the fore. I may well be cynical, but I agree that too many people aim to exploit the concept
Leaside, your post is thoughtful, but who and where are these people exploiting the concept of mental health?  Man, if anything, we are just reaching the point where we see the tip of the iceberg.  Once this pandemic is behind us, and we start assessing the damage done, especially to kids, we are going to see massive increases in mental health diagnoses. 

Of course, resilience is the best solution. 

But I'll say it again - if people default to accusing strangers of, well, anything really, when they express sadness - that is contributing to mental health issues.  We all need to stop psychoanylzing  from a distance, and when people say things like 'this sucks', give them the benefit of the doubt and empathize.

I'm not suggesting much here.  

Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#403135) #
It is a good discussion. Over the years, I have come to appreciate mental discipline as perhaps the most underrated asset for a professional athlete. It is a combination of related elements: intestinal fortitude, determination, coolheadedness, focus, nerve, composure, etc. I like a bit of chutzpah in a player. Most of all, I admire poise. All these factors might be most pronounced in baseball. Remember, 90% of the game is mental and only half is physical.

We realize nowadays that some of the old adages are not paramount after all. Boys don't cry. Suck it up. First world problems. All that jazz. Life is hard enough as it is. A little warmth is a good thing. Being as fierce as Ty Cobb is probably not for the best. (For the record, Kumbaya is not on my setlist, but I do have a lovely signing voice.)

Be that as it may, I still feel that too much bad behaviour in society is explained away citing mental health issues. The new culture of perpetual inborn victimhood is part of it. The infirmity of substance abuse too. I will let that simmer, mind you, before going too far into politics. As it pertains to baseball and the Toronto Blue Jays, the bottom line is we can provide Ross Stripling, Colby Rasmus, or anyone else who needs it with support and encouragement.

Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#403136) #
*singing voice. I really do! I also play electric bass and tuba.
BlueJayWay - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#403137) #
and he's getting older by the minute.

Aren't we all....
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#403139) #
Sorry guys but Iím calling BS. Scott originally quoted the article and provided a link and he only raised one question which was ďI thought Stripling would be able to afford multiple apartments or maybe his family is not vaccinated.Ē He was simply speculating why Stripling might be feeling in a weird mental place as it relates to his family and him needing to be in Toronto very soon.

Paul D, who has been completely absent from this conversation since, came out and told Scott he was being harsh.

JJ then came out and asked Scott why he was arguing when it comes to mental health.

ďWe all need to stop psychoanylzing from a distance, and when people say things like 'this sucks', give them the benefit of the doubt and empathize.Ē Am I the only one that sees the irony here?

This basically comes down to asking people not to raise questions or wonder aloud about anythingÖ if there is any possibility of mental health being part of the subject matterÖpotentially.

Advocating for mental health only happens if you can identify mental health. It also helps to encourage discussion rather than trying to shut it down. Curbing any talk that may encroach on mental health issues is a form of censorship and a way of asking posters not to speak their thoughts or opinions.

Chuck - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#403140) #
Aren't we all....

Not Nelson Cruz, the newest TB Ray. Dude is Benjamin Button.

BlueJayWay - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#403141) #
Nelson Cruz to the Rays. That's a perfect move for them.
hypobole - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#403142) #
From Jay Jaffe's Replacement-Level Killers at FG on Gurriel:

He started the 2021 season slowly, hitting just .249/.265/.367 (68 wRC+) through the end of May, that while walking in 2.2% of his plate appearances, striking out in 20.4%, and barreling the ball just 6.3% of the time. Since the start of June, heís turned things around, batting .292/.333/.515 (127 wRC+) while boosting his walk rate to 6.4%; his barrel rate has risen to 9.5%. His turnaround has coincided with MLBís crackdown on sticky stuff, and a closer look reveals that he hit .212 and slugged .231 against four-seam fastballs through the end of May, but has boosted that to .250 and .459 since. Though his batted ball stats and overall numbers could certainly be better, heís trending in the right direction, so this probably doesnít rate as a major concern for the Blue Jays.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#403143) #
Cruz is an interesting acquisition. In terms of WAR, he's not far behind Kris Bryant (1.8 versus 2.2), but his cost in prospects will probably be significantly less than that of a marquee rental like Bryant. No doubt the Rays will make effective use of Cruz in their mix-and-match lineups.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#403144) #
As BA points out, despite his age, Cruz "ranks among the 92nd percentile or better in average exit velocity, max exit velocity, hard hit percentage, as well as expected wOBA, batting average, slugging percentage." And he'll help boost the Rays' weak hitting against left-handed pitching. Cruz has a 171 wRC+ against lefties.
Petey Baseball - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#403145) #
I am with SK about the manager. I think Charlie Montoyo was great to have in '19 when they were tanking essentially, and even last year when they needed an optimistic type to help through the pandemic related uncertainty.

Personally though, the excessive upbeat positivity whatever you want to call it you hear from him wears on me. Frankly, it's good to see some fire from the manager from time to time when your pitchers are being squeezed for instance, and there have been cases this year where I thought Charlie could have backed his players more.

85bluejay - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#403147) #
I wonder what Ray and Semien would net the Jays.
scottt - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#403148) #
Interesting discussion.

Around 40 years ago, I was training as an officer.
The army has a simple approach to how one's mental state affects his performance.
The word they use is Morale.
Morale, I was told, is like a toilet seat, constantly going up and down.
It's up to the officer to boost morale before an important task.
Or try at least.

Mental health has more to do with the guys who end up in the infirmary even though they are physically fit.

Baseball is not the army.
Players are in charge of their own career.
It's a long season and it's a game of adjustments.

Ray had problems with the Orioles also.
Fundamentally, he's currently a 2-pitch pitcher.
He's a lot like a reliever out there, which might explains why he craters the 3rd time through the order. 
Or before, against certain players.

Romano seems to have problems with his slider grip since they banned the sticky stuff.

Richards struggled mightily without the sticky stuff, but confused the Jays with a firm circle change yesterday.
Kinda like how Kay was good the day he broke out his cutter and the day he replaced it with a slider.

scottt - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#403149) #
The Rays gave up two potential starters for Cruz.
He seems to max out their payroll, so maybe they'll unload someone else?

I don't think they'll platoon Cruz.
He can't play anywhere on the field.

What I like most with this move is that the Jays haven't played the Twins yet.

Well, should be interesting.

John Northey - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#403151) #
Tampa is so frustrating. They decide they need a DH they get a guy with a 151 OPS+. Sigh. Wonder what, if anything, the Jays will do by July 30th? I still have hope for something significant but it fades as days go by with minimal rumors out there.
92-93 - Thursday, July 22 2021 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#403152) #
Ray and Semien would net the Jays less than they got for Stroman. Exciting stuff.
Magpie - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#403155) #
They decide they need a DH they get a guy with a 151 OPS+.

Effectively, they replace Margot in the lineup (or more likely they platoon Meadows/Margot in RF.) For the low, low price of ... well, something like Pearson and Hatch if they were dealing with the Jays.
Thomas - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 06:45 AM EDT (#403157) #
I wouldn't agree with including Pearson as a comparable, Magpie. As much as he has his caveats and uncertainty, his upside still far exceeds Strotman or Ryan.

I think something like Hatch and Kloffenstein is more comparable, although I might take Tampa's package over that, particularly if I was prioritising proximity to the majors.
dalimon5 - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 07:39 AM EDT (#403158) #
Semien would bet more than Stroman return. If we could get two SWR level prospects into our system, that is, 2 ďjust outside the top 100 but sure to be on top 100 list in following yearsĒ then that would push our minor league system to being the best. Deeper Han anyone elseís. That is very intriguing.

jerjapan - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#403159) #
Freakin' Rays.  The paid a bit more than I thought they'd have to for a DH only, but that lineup is dangerous now. 

Dan Syzmborski at FG is spitballing trades, and suggested Kimbrel to TO for Smith, Groshans and Hiraldo.  That'd be a hard no from me. 

Dalimon, literally the last thing I want to do is ask "people not to raise questions or wonder aloud about anything".  I appreciate the entire discussion here.  I disagreed with Scott, but I don't want him not to express himself.  I think you might be reading the censorship idea into a discussion that really isn't censoring anyone.  Certainly, if I came across as censorious, that's my bad, and not my intent.  Definitely, people get censored and cancelled these days, but I agree with you on that man, dialogue is essential. 


greenfrog - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#403160) #
Freakin' Rays

Yep. Yesterday they scored two in the ninth and one in the tenth (on the road) to beat Cleveland 5-4. And now they get Cruz. Boston and TB have separated themselves from the pack in the AL East. The Jays are in fourth place, 8.5 GB of Boston and 7.5 GB of Tampa. It seems to me that any trades the Jays make should be primarily focused on 2022 and beyond. If they help the team obtain a WC spot in 2021, great, but don't give up quality prospects for a mere rental.
Paul D - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 08:54 AM EDT (#403161) #
I agree greenfrog - i think it's the time to look for trades that might upgrade the team this year, but only if the players is still on the team next year. So no Kris Bryant types.
bpoz - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#403163) #
It is good that we analyze what TB does. Their top priority is to control the payroll. A major factor is their inability to draw fans and generate revenue.

Lets talk good trades and nice trades as well as good & nice FA signings.

just a note: TB generates a lot of interest to all baseball fans by trading away V good players Price, Longoria, Snell etc...

Nice FA signings: AA signing Morton and Donaldson to 1 year contracts. That minimizes risk to 1 year. Atkins Semien, Ray, Phelps, Chatwood and Yates are all 1 year FA signings. So risk is limited to 1 year so all nice signings. Some worked and some did not. Yates for Atkins did not work. For AA & TB I don't know.

Nice trades: TB W Adames & T Richards to Milwaukee for Feyereisen & D Rasmussen. All are cheap. Adames may get expensive in arb because he is looking good. Atkins got T Richards and Cimber, both cheap and useful. AA is trading to compensate for the loss of Acuna.

Good trades: N Cruz qualifies as good IMO because he is a "rental". An elite DH this year so far, so needs to cost $ (his salary) and decent prospects. The prospects may turn out great/good but who will complain to the TB FO?
Hodgie - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#403164) #
I wonder what Ray and Semien would net the Jays.

Outrage from the fanbase and the anger of everyone left in the clubhouse?

scottt - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#403165) #
Apparently they tried to unload Meadows and Kiermaier all winter long.
Kiermaier is basically unmovable now, unless they package him with a good prospect.
Kiermaier is making around 12M and he's signed for another year.
Meadows will hit arbitration this winter. He hasn't signed a team friendly deal.
They didn't get the return they wanted on him.
No doubt, they'll free some room for their pre-arb players; Franco, Brujan, Josh Lowe, Walls, Baz, etc.

On paper, the Rays and the Yankees were 2 easy teams to improve with trades.

Toronto's weakness is catching--tricky to upgrade and they have too many catchers on the roster--and unreliable pitching. A monster bat at DH or left field might look good, but it would not move the needle much. The Jays needs the DH slot to rest players and Gurriel has been decent of late.
Third base? That's more a question for next year. Biggio should go back to third and they could just let the prospects fight it out with Espinal.


hypobole - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#403166) #
Some people like podcasts. For those. here's FG Audio with Dave Laurila and Ben Nicholson-Smith talking "Buying Blue Jays" to lead off.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/fangraphs-audio-ben-nicholson-smith-on-the-buying-blue-jays/

85bluejay - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#403167) #
"Outrage from the fanbase and the anger of everyone left in the clubhouse?"

If the return is good then I'm ok with that reaction.
scottt - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#403168) #
Yeah, but who knew Ray was a trade that would upgrade the team the next year?

I'd argue that any free agent that want to approach next year is worth adding now so he get comfortable with the organization, the city, and all the misconceptions.

bpoz - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#403169) #
There will be lots of buzz in the media about splashy trades and trade proposals. That stuff is news worthy.

N Cruz already. Maybe Gallo, Scherzer.

I am starting to get interested in the little trades. To cherry pick a trade D Hudson to Washington and K Johnston to Toronto. Worked out great for Washington. Toronto saved $ and got an interesting prospect.
scottt - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#403171) #
The Jays don't have much room to stash prospects before the next rule 5 draft.
Trading good players for prospects now would be like trying to hold water with your hand and the farm is already stacked.

Also, consider that the Rogers Center is probably going to be sold out for every remaining game.
So, 4th place trailing by 8th game is as good as first place.

Paul D - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#403172) #
I'd argue that any free agent that want to approach next year is worth adding now so he get comfortable with the organization, the city, and all the misconceptions.

Excellent point scott. If they think they'll be in on Bryant or someone similar next year, and the price is right, then yes, think about going for it.

92-93 - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#403175) #
Even more intriguing than possibly having the best minor league system is the Jays playing meaningful baseball in September and perhaps October.
Chuck - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#403178) #
The Cleveland Guardians. Guardians. Yes, Guardians. That was the best of their choices. I'm afraid to ask what the worst were.
bpoz - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#403179) #
I don't know how having a high ranking minor league system and having a great record like for example the CWS 58-38 and then continuing that into Oct are related. I don't think you meant that they are related. We would be TB then.

The pen is the problem. I believe Atkins provided more for the pen this year compared to last year. Injuries and poor performance is the difference IMO. If it is just a matter of good or bad luck then I don't know what Atkins could have done. What can he do for next year.
bpoz - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#403180) #
Next year Cleveland Guardians. Name change.
greenfrog - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#403181) #
Even more intriguing than a chance of winning a WC spot in 2021 is a chance at multiple postseason appearances in the next half-dozen seasons.
Magpie - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#403184) #
Outrage from the fanbase and the anger of everyone left in the clubhouse?

As every GM knows, the first is unpleasant but tolerable. The second, however, can be fraught with danger. Sometimes you get away with it. Sometimes it's fatal.
85bluejay - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#403188) #
I'm not saying the Jays should sell but given their situation and perhaps they fall further back this week given their play against teams with winning record, the jays need to be nimble and prepare to be buyers/sellers as the market and their play dictate and it would be a lost opportunity if they don't at least listen on their expiring contracts - What I'm against is going all in and trading quality assets for rentals as this team is at the beginning of their window and not the old 2015 team with a President/GM on their way out the door - yes to acquiring controllable assets. Fanbases are usually on the instant gratificiation train and players play for their economic future so I'm not that worried about their reaction - I'm excited about a run similiar to the 1983-93 teams and you have to be smart and opportunistic.
92-93 - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#403190) #
Playing meaningful baseball in 2021 and receiving compensatory draft picks is more valuable for the Jays future than the package they will receive for their own rentals.
85bluejay - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#403193) #
That's such a silly comment - you don't know what the jays will receive and it isn't written that they can't play meaningful baseball if they move Ray and/or Semien.
hypobole - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#403197) #
Outrage from the fanbase and the anger of everyone left in the clubhouse?

If the Jays go 0-7 against the Mets and Red Sox, most of the fanbase will understand. And the little if any anger any players may have most likely won't be directed at management.

That said, the Jays won't go 0-7 and Semien and Ray won't be traded.
bpoz - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#403201) #
Reports are that the Rays are trading Rich Hill to the Mets.
Kasi - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#403203) #
Team has done it to themselves by their poor record against Tampa and Boston. Tons of winnable games in there that were thrown away for one reason or another. Like hyperbole I don't expect them to trade Ray or Semien. I think they'll keep them for the greater chance of resign them and if nothing will be fine with the QO. Trade would give return that is more immediately able to help them but I don't see it happening. Basically unless they go on a run this very week they have lost their chance at the division. No way they can catch 2 teams 7+ games ahead of them who from what we can see are also just better teams. You don't move high future value for the chance of a wild card game.
Kasi - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#403207) #
I do even think there will be additions, but I expect more things like last year where maybe the best prospect going out is a top 15 type. I think any significant rentals is becoming much less likely with each passing day.
hypobole - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#403211) #
The main reason I think the Jays won't trade Semien and/or Ray is that they are back in Toronto with (hopefully) full attendance next year.

Lots of paying fans are like 92-93 and really only care about the big club. Doing a sell-off will be very poor optics and almost assuredly cost the team wins through the end of the season. That will impact season tickets sales and will definitely impact attendance next year.

Most likely scenario is that both stay and get QO's. Semien will turn down his, Ray may or may not.

bpoz - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#403214) #
Kendall Williams could be a top 15 prospect or there abouts. Current Jay prospects in that category are D Brown, Rekelbin De Castro, Joey Murray and R Adams.

For TB Blake Hunt catcher, Honeywell, A Pie a SS and RHP T Bradley.

So then TB trades 2 # 15 type prospects for N Cruz. Cruz is an experienced ML player unlike Brendan McKay and Patrick Murphy. At the moment McKay and Murphy are learning the ML. Their results are inconsistent maybe bad. A contending team may or may not give them the necessary rope to fail first and then get better. Their playoff chances are at risk.

Still am a big Jays fan and love da Box but TB is so fascinating. I am trying to analyze their methods.
Kasi - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#403217) #
Yeah I can totally see one of those guys traded, even a guy in the 10-15 range if it comes with a player signed for more than one year. Well for a guy with longer control I can definitely see any top 10 being traded, but rentals I'd be very surprised if anyone in our top ~12 or so gets moved.
92-93 - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#403224) #
Pretty much all paying fans with good seats, hypobole. Been a seasons ticket holder for many years and interact with a lot of others. Unfortunately for us, we can't take seasons off while prospects develop and then ask for our seats back. Prices are significantly higher than they were in 2015-16 and payroll is significantly lower.
hypobole - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#403229) #
where are you getting your payroll numbers?
92-93 - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#403238) #
Cotís has the end-of-season Ď16 payroll @ 153MM and this yearís OD @ 135MM, which is less than the 2014 OD payroll. That 153M seems light though, there were definitely places that put it at 165-170M. Either way, ticket prices have gone way up since then and MLB salaries continue to rise. Itís great that the Jays were in on Ryu/Springer, and hopefully they will continue spending this offseason to get them back to a more appropriate level for this market.

The surprising thing about this FO is that they havenít taken risks in locking up any of their young talent to deals that extends the control a bit, the type you see with Jose Ramirez. It would have been the smart thing to do when payroll was slashed in Ď19, and a better allocation of resources than the types of contracts they gave Grichuk and Roark, which never had much upside.
Kasi - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#403239) #
To do those big deals with the young players they need to be willing to sign them. However since Bo and Vlad are sons of majors and are rich already before they ever did anything in baseball there likely wasn't as much push from them to sign team friendly deals to get money into their pockets now.
dalimon5 - Friday, July 23 2021 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#403258) #
92,

Bo hasnít had more than a seasons worth of at bats in MLB. To criticize this front office for not signing Bo or Vlad long term during pandemic is not something I would do. Iím also a season ticket holder and Iíll wait for more prospects if it means promised land. Simple as that. If I canít afford it I simply just cancel my tickets.

Roark and Griichuk were signed way before Vlad or Bo came to MLB and proved they were studs and making it a point that the FO spent money on those guys instead of the young studs is just pretend.
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