Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
New York is waiting for you and me, baby
Waiting to swallow us down
New York, we're coming to see what you're made of
Are you as great as you sound


Something wicked this way comes.


It seems so long ago, but after splitting four games with the Jays and losing two of three to the Orioles in mid-April, the Yankees had a modest 5-5 record. But they won 10 of their next 11 to finish April with a nifty 15-6 mark. They cooled off a little in May, going just 19-9 and actually lost another series when the White Sox took two of three from them in the Bronx. But they still went into June with a 34-15 record - and it was at that point when they got really hot. They're 13-1 this month. They started the month finishing off a three game sweep of the Angels, which they followed by taking three more from Detroit. They just swept three from Tampa Bay, right after taking three from the Cubs. In between, they somehow lost once to Minnesota.

So what the hell is going on?

Well, they do score more runs than anyone else. They're the only team in the majors scoring more than 5 runs per game. A couple of weird things have happened. They picked up catcher Jose Trevino from Texas, where he'd hit .245/.270/.364 in parts of four seasons. Since donning the pinstripes, he's hit .291/.336/.478 and perhaps you wonder why this is happening? Let me explain: it's because a deal was made with the devil. There's no other explanation that fits the facts of the case.  And don't even mention Matt Carpenter, these guys have no shame whatsoever. We all know what's going on. A bargain with Old Nick, I tell you. Dr Faustus himself was more subtle about it. 

And yet... so much else has happened that really shouldn't be helping them very much. Anthony Rizzo, for example. He's hitting .223, and it's only the fact that he's been able to dump 12 balls over the short porch in right field that allows him to pretend he's still useful. Joey Gallo is hitting .184 with 8 HR and 15 RBI in 51 games, which has to be somewhat less than the team was counting on. Aaron Hicks is hitting .224, Josh Donaldson is hitting .232 and neither is showing much in the way of power - at this rate they might end up with 20 homers between them. Gleyber Torres is doing much better now that he's back at second base, so that's a positive. And Giancarlo Stanton has made it onto the field for 50 of their 60 games so far, and done a quite passable simulation of the Stanton of past seasons. But all told, it hardly seems to account for what's going on. And, truth be told,  it doesn't.

 Because it's mostly been Aaron Judge, the pending free agent. Look upon his works and despair. I know I did. The Yankees took the precaution of offering Judge a contract as he headed into the season. That was prudent of them, but it did not suffice. Judge clearly thought it all over and said to himself "I wonder what they'll offer if I hit 60 homers and win the MVP? Why don't we find out."

I guess we're going to find out.

As if that wasn't irritating enough, the Yankees also give up fewer runs than anyone else. They're the only team in the majors allowing fewer than 3 runs per game. Gerrit Cole, who makes more money all by himself than the rest of the staff (they've got a lot of cash on the Injured List) has actually been the weak link of their starting five. Yeah, he's a real drag, with his 6-1, 3.33 record. I guess that's okay for your fifth-best starter. Meanwhile Cortes, Montgomery, and Taillon are pitching the best baseball of their lives and Luis Severino appears to have shaken off three years of rust and picked up right where he left off back in 2018 and having done my best to wipe all traces of 2018 from my mental hard drive... I can say no more.

The starters need to be that good, however, because the bullpen is a little shallow. They lost three relievers - Chapman, Green, Loaisiga - in one week in late May. The three top guys remaining - Holmes, King, Peralta - have been either really good (King and Peralta) or insanely great (Holmes.) But the depth guys behind them - Castro, Schmidt, Luetge, Marinaccio - are fairly ordinary. A weakness, to be exploited!

On the extremely remote chance that any of those guys will be needed while the game is still on the line.

Yeah, this weekend could be tricky.

But you know what they say. Got to play 'em. Might as well win 'em.

Matchups!

Fri 17 June - Montgomery (2-1, 2.70) vs Stripling (3-1, 3.14)
Sat 18 June - Taillon (7-1, 2.93) vs Manoah (8-1, 1.67)
Sun 19 June - Severino (4-1, 2.80) vs Kikuchi (2-3, 4.80)


Should we be afraid? No! Absolutely not! And here is why.


He can't hurt you anymore.
New York at Toronto, June 17-19 | 181 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mike Green - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#415662) #
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens. 

How have the Yankees managed it so that every single one of their pitchers who has faced a qualifying number of batters has been within spitting distance of average?   Almost invariably, there will be a pitcher or two who just doesn't have it- incipient arm problems or whatever.  I suppose one thing is that they collect major league ready players, which makes it easier to slide people in and out.  It's one of the things that a large payroll enables. 
hypobole - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#415664) #
Dear Blue Jays:

Please don't get swept at home.

Your fan
hypobole
scottt - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#415665) #
Let's just pitch around Judge and see what happens.
GabrielSyme - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#415666) #
Well, at least the Jays have done reasonably well against Cole in recent years.
Gerry - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#415667) #
I have developed a grudging respect for the Yankees and in particular their scouting department. Its not just Trevino and Carpenter, they have done a good job over the years of identifying talent and bringing it into their system. There is a trail of players who have performed better in pinstripes. Maybe it's just the uniform?
Lylemcr - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#415668) #
How the heck does Cortez, Montgomery and Tailon all have ERA under 3?

I would check for Compound V.
Gerry - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#415669) #
Casey Lawrence added, Jeremy Beasley bumped.
hypobole - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#415670) #
Did anyone read the Thornton slider link?

Cortes did something similar. Learned and perfected an excellent cutter with the help of C. C. Sabathia. Some pitchers can turn careers around simply by adding a pitch or perfecting a pitch.
hypobole - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#415671) #
Not just scouting Gerry. Yankees, especially on the pitching side have been praised for their player development over the past number of years, along with the Dodgers. Brewers another one I heard recently for pitching.

Seems the 2 big boys jumped on PD wagons early and have used their massive resources to keep them rolling.





Cracka - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#415672) #
Otto Lopez is also with the team; Chapman still has an inflamed wrist but is expected to play; Bo is day-to-day with a foot contusion. Would probably need to drop Matt Gage and go down to 8 RP in order to get him on the active roster.
Mike Green - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#415673) #
Too bad about Bichette. He's 6-11 with 2 homers and 8 RBIs against Montgomery. Not that that means anything.
Polite Nate - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#415674) #
I think the 13 pitcher limit kicks in Monday. I like another IF option more than Zack Collins unless they think Collins is going to start raking again.
Magpie - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#415675) #
Cracka sees into the future! Gage optioned, Lopez activated.
Polite Nate - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#415676) #
Has to be a bad sign for Bo and/or Chapman, though I guess Chapman is in the lineup at least.
Mike Green - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#415677) #
It's strange to call up Lopez rather than Samad Taylor.  Otto isn't hitting much at all, and hasn't been controlling the strike zone in June. 

Nigel - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#415678) #
Mike, it may be because Lopez can fake 3B (and maybe even SS in an extreme pinch) but I don't believe that Taylor can play SS or 3B. I appreciate that Espinal and Biggio probably give you the flexibility to cover Chapman if there's an issue but Lopez gives you the most options. I'm not sure that that would be the deciding factor for me for who to call up but I think there is some logic to this.
scottt - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#415679) #
The umpiring usually favors the Yankees.
Boon goes into hysterics whenever there's a call that doesn't go his way.

scottt - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#415680) #
Lopez is already on the 40 and burning his second option.
Taylor isn't.

I now expect Lopez rather than Collins to replace a reliever.

Gerry - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#415682) #
Cole now moved to Monday. Luis Severino will come off the Covid IL to pitch Sunday.
Mike Green - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#415683) #
I guess that if Bo is headed for the IL, it is somewhat justifiable to prefer Lopez to Taylor. They really only have Espinal to play shortstop. But if you're trying to win in 2022 and you need someone to back up at shortstop, I would have thought Groshans would be the guy.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#415684) #
[The Babe] can't hurt you anymore.

Beelzebub regretted that trade for 86 years.

Magpie - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#415685) #
Speed!
lexomatic - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#415686) #
Great base running. Thought I was going to lose thre feed again at a tense moment with the usual sportsnet app she anigand
Gerry - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#415687) #
It's early ...... but .... if I was Danny Jansen I wouldn't be signing a long term lease.
Nigel - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#415688) #
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Jansen, but he sure looks like the least able of the three and that's saying something.
greenfrog - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#415689) #
Moreno/Kirk certainly look like the frontrunners to stay in TO, with their combination of hitting ability, defense, athleticism, youth and controllability.

Stripling has been great so far tonight. The Jays need to take advantage of this opportunity and scratch and claw their way to a win in this one.
tercet - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#415690) #
You guys are jumping the ship abit on Moreno, he is a groundball machine with no power so far with a super high babip, those numbers once they regress to the mean are not ideal.
Evair Montenegro - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#415691) #
On the other hand, he has been hitting well with 2 strikes and hitting difficult pitches for hits.
Nigel - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#415692) #
I know that Thornton has had a few good outings this year, but I really wish he wouldn’t keep resurfacing on this roster.
Magpie - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#415693) #
Sufficiently low leverage for Richards?
dalimon5 - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#415694) #
Just tuned in and first thought I had was “Thornton against Stanton in the 5th in a one run game??? How many chances is this guy gonna get from this regime?”

Proceeds to give up back to back home runs. Listening to Tanler during the telecast was actually the most painful part. In particular:

Tabler: “You can’t make a better pitch than that.”

Me: “yes you can.”

Tabler: “it was a slider off the plate.”

Instant replay proceeds to show the slider was at the edge of the strike zone.

Tabler: “Stanton’s fly balls just go further than everybody else’s.”
John Northey - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#415695) #
Well, that was ugly so far. Thornton and Richards battling to see who gets dumped first. Full credit to Lawrence who is certainly making a good case to give him the long man pen slot over the other 2.
John Northey - Friday, June 17 2022 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#415696) #
Interesting that the Jays were 2nd in the Verlander race according to Verlander. I didn't think they were in that race. Wonder if they will have the guts to go after Judge this winter. Imagine that - Aaron Judge in RF/CF for the Jays with the rest of this lineup. But that would cost $40+ a year for 8 years with him going into his age 31 season. Yikes, but you'd weaken your #1 competitor and improve the team for a few years. Worst case you drive the price up on the Yankees and make their budget tighter.
uglyone - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 12:30 AM EDT (#415697) #
Maybe we'll catch them with an epic deadline move.
bpoz - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#415698) #
Maybe we win today with Manoah. Maybe also tomorrow.
Chuck - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#415700) #
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Jansen, but he sure looks like the least able of the three and that's saying something.

Even with 7 HR in 56 AB, Jansen should rightfully be concerned that he's the odd man out.

Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#415702) #
98 games remaining. The frontrunning Yankees don't scare me, even if they lap the field with 110 wins.

Toronto is definitely a playoff team, except the titillation therein seems to have diminished. Now, the pressure comes from higher expectations. (Like another squad in this city.)

6 playoff berths presents even more of a crapshoot. The number 2 seed is a realistic goal.

As to Danny Jansen, I counted him out last season and he proved me wrong. Yet, Kirk's growing career sample indicates that he's a keeper. A few games watching Moreno has revealed a rare quality for such a youngster -- poise.
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#415703) #
Unless, the 2 seed is reserved for a division winner...
electric carrot - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#415704) #
Even with 7 HR in 56 AB, Jansen should rightfully be concerned that he's the odd man out.

One has to wonder if there would ever be a better moment to trade Jansen with his sky high slugging. Work to try and get the pitcher who can replace Ryu.

Cracka - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#415705) #
The #2 & #3 seeds go to division winners. Realistically, we're playing for the #4 seed and a best-of-three series entirely in Toronto. The #5 & #6 seeds don't get home games in the wildcard round.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#415706) #
The not-so-irate impala (aka Raimel Tapia) gets the start in left-field.  Even his anagram (irate impala) chases a pitch outside the zone- I've never seen him angry at all. When an umpire calls a pitch which should be a ball a strike, Tapia gives a quizzical look as if to say either "I chase everything and that was too far outside the zone even for me" or "Can't you see that you are encouraging my bad habits- how does all that enablement feel for you?"
Nigel - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#415707) #
I dunno about trading Jansen given that the Jays are at the front end of a contention window and at the rate C’s get injured. Having three C’s 27 and under where the logic of using one of them at DH if not catching ranges from compelling to “not a crazy idea”, seems almost ideal for a contender. I’d feel differently if the team were at a different place on the success curve and trying to improve vast swathes of a roster. Here, the holes to be filled are precise and could be filled with prospect capital and (purported) budget room.
John Northey - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#415708) #
For the catcher situation we are in a case of diminishing returns. 2 premium catchers can split time between catching and DH with no problems. 3 becomes a situation where one is always on the bench. It can work, but is far from ideal and using that 3rd one to help get an asset that helps elsewhere is a very good idea imo.

Now, of course, you don't give him away. It all depends on what is out there. Also the Jays still have a prospect behind the plate in Luis Meza (ranked #23 on the Jays by FanGraphs, #20 currently by MLB) - he is far, far away but that is good right now. Just 17 in the Dominican Summer League so he is 4+ years away I'd say. If he develops he'd be here right as Kirk reaches free agency.

The Jays have 20 catchers listed at BR in the system - 3 with OPS over 800 (Jansen, Kirk, Steve Berman - a 27 year old in AAA), another 5 in the 700's (Moreno, 2 19 year olds in Jean Arnaez and Nicolas Deschamps, 23 year old Zach Britton, and 21 year old Jommer Hernandez. The youngest is a 16 year old in the DOSL Maykel Minoso (signed in June, born in 2005).
Gerry - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#415709) #
Richards to the Il with a neck issue. Gage back up.
BlueJayWay - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#415710) #
Ryu getting the full TJS instead of the partial, which was thought to be potentially an option. 12-18 month recovery time.
lexomatic - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#415711) #
<br>apparently Lotenzo Cain has been released and replaced by... Jonathan Davis.
Chuck - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#415713) #
One has to wonder if there would ever be a better moment to trade Jansen with his sky high slugging. Work to try and get the pitcher who can replace Ryu.

An obvious destination is the team in the visitors dugout, badly in need of a major league starting catcher (Trevino's Faustian deal notwithstanding).

Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#415714) #
Richards to the Il with a neck issue.

Whiplash, from turning to watch those baseballs leaving the yard.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#415715) #
Lorenzo Cain has been released and replaced by... Jonathan Davis.

On the one hand, the Brewers did Cain a solid by keeping him around until the exact day when he'd accumulated 10 years of service time. On the other hand, he has earned more than $100 million playing baseball. He's probably not going to need the pension.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#415716) #
I would assume that Atkins' priority right now is to try to find a starting pitcher, dealing from his surplus of MLB ready catchers. Which means you need a team with no ambition for contending this year that has a) a need behind the plate and b) a desireable starter. Kansas City and Pittsburgh don't have any pitchers I'd be interested in. Cincinnati obviously has Luis Castillo, who they're probably going to deal in the near future. But they don't need a catcher.

So I think I'd be asking the Marlins what it would take to pry Pablo Lopez loose.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#415717) #
Taillon is getting calls and Manoah isn't.  The Yankees don't need this kind of help.
scottt - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#415718) #
It's always like that against the Yankees.
It was just less noticeable when the Jays had no-name pitchers and the Yankees a bunch of All-Star ones.

uglyone - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#415719) #
Nice umping.
BlueJayWay - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#415720) #
Exactly, scott. It's been like this for as long as I've watched baseball.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#415721) #
Raimel Tapia feeds on your scorn.
Kasi - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#415722) #
The delta between their hitting and our pitching is much bigger than between our hitting and their pitching. I feel fairly safe saying that any chance to win the division is gone. Wild card of some sort feels like a lock. What spot they want to be in I don’t know but likely one that avoids NY as long as possible.
ae_scott - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#415723) #
Not enough scorn, apparently.
Lylemcr - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#415724) #
I hope if the Jays get swept, they get creamed every game. This team needs a wake up call. A good spanking.

I also think if the Jays gets swept, it is time to fire the manager. I am really questioning this team's heart and work ethic.

This team should be able to beat the Yankees.... Something needs to shake them up.
ae_scott - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#415725) #
I mean, *nobody's* beating the Yankees right now.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#415726) #
Tapia has indeed looked good at the plate today. 
scottt - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#415727) #
The biggest delta is the strikezone when they Jays are pitching and the one when they are hitting.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#415728) #
I mean, *nobody's* beating the Yankees right now.

They're playing .750 ball. The last team to do that, I think, was the Cubs. In 1906. It's been a while since there's been a team this good.

A bargain, with the Prince of Darkness. I rest my case.
James W - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#415729) #
Looks to me like they're putting too much pressure on themselves. Guerrero's reaction to popping out said it all.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#415730) #
In baseball, trying extra hard is almost always a guarantee of failure.
Lylemcr - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#415731) #
The Jays split with the Orioles. And they are getting embarrassed by the Yankees.

Moreno was the only person who hit on Friday. So what does Charlie do? He sits him.... And why is Biggio at 1st? Bichette is back. Biggio should be on the bench and Gurriel at 1st or DH. (From my recollection, he is one of the hottest Jays).

This team on paper should be so much better. At least not swept by the Yankees.

To be honest, the Yankees beat them this weekend before 1 pitch was even thrown. The problem is between the ears... You can't fire all the players.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#415732) #
This team on paper should be so much better.

Rather than the third best record in the league, they could have the second-best? I suppose, but they're definitely going to need better starting pitching.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#415733) #
I like the idea of Aaron Judge taking advantage of his free agency and signing a nice contract to go home. It was never an option for Joe DiMaggio - free agency didn't exist, and San Francisco didn't even have a major league team. But if there was ever a player who ought to be a Giant...
bpoz - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#415734) #
Wow Magpie!! .750 for the 1906 Cubs!! Hope they won the WS in a dominating way. After that super season maybe they had a couple of more WS championship teams THEN they became the lovable losers.

Hope the Yankees do the same.
Magpie - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#415735) #
.750 for the 1906 Cubs!! Hope they won the WS in a dominating way.

It was .763 to be precise. And they did not win the WS, losing to the White Sox in six games. The only other team in history to win 116 games in a season - the 2001 Mariners - likewise lost in the post-season.
Gerry - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#415736) #
It looks like the Jays took Bowden Francis off the 40 man, he cleared waivers, and is still with Buffalo. That clears a spot for Nate Pearson or someone else.
bpoz - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#415737) #
Thanks Magpie. So you are saying that the 1906 Cubs by not winning the WS which meant that a lesser team did win it.

I have hope that NYY (evil empire) will not win the WS but the WS is won by one of the other 11 playoff teams.

This is complicated math that will be discussed and not fully understood. In 1992 the Jays win the WS but the best record belonged to Atlanta. In 1993 the 4th best Jays won the WS.

This tells me that my Jays just have to make the playoffs.
Cracka - Saturday, June 18 2022 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#415738) #
Max Castillo is joining the team, taking Francis' spot on the 40-man roster. This is a great move - Castillo has been absolutely lights out in AAA and deserves a shot. Also, Castillo & Kirk might form the heaviest battery ever in MLB history (listed at 525 lbs... but easily >550 lbs).
James W - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 02:05 AM EDT (#415739) #
Is Castillo bigger than Manoah? I see he's listed at 280 lbs, while Manoah is 285.
Mike Green - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 06:06 AM EDT (#415740) #
Castillo is only 6'2" tall. Definitely a higher BMI than Manoah.

Like Manoah, he wins.  He's 45-18 in his minor league career, with a pretty good but not great ERA and not playing on very good teams either. There's undoubtedly a luck element, but maybe he has a competitive edge to him that helps.

Castillo was in the long man role for Buffalo in his last two outings.

Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 07:15 AM EDT (#415741) #
Castillo & Kirk might form the heaviest battery ever in MLB history (listed at 525 lbs... but easily >550 lbs).

The Blue Jays can actually provide an even heavier battery, and it's possible that the actual weights of the two players (especially the catcher) were a little more than what was officially listed. I refer you to those dozen occasions back in 2011 when Jon Rauch was on the mound and Jose Molina was behind the plate. They were listed at 540 (290 for Rauch, 250 for Molina.)
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 07:45 AM EDT (#415742) #
the 1906 Cubs by not winning the WS which meant that a lesser team did win it.

The 1906 Cubs, over the entire season, dominated the same way and to the same degree as the 2022 Yankees have so far. They scored more runs than any other team in the majors, and allowed fewer runs than anyone as well. Which is how you go 116-36. Their WS opponents, the White Sox went a measly 93-58. They were known as the Hitless Wonders, although their offense was actually about league average.

The White Sox won the first game 2-1 when the Cubs great catcher, Johnny Kling, was twice unable to hold onto the baseball - once on a play at home plate that allowed the first run to score, and an inning later his passed ball moved a runner to third where he scored on a base hit. The Cubs won the next game, but Big Ed Walsh - who was a great pitcher - threw a two-hitter in the third game. The Cubs evened up the Series in Game Four.

In Game Five, manager Chance hooked Ed Reulbach (who had pitched a one-hitter in Game Two) with a 3-2 lead after he gave two doubles to start the third inning. (In 1906? Very unusual.) The White Sox broke it open against the reliever, scoring four runs in the next inning. And in Game Six, Chance brought back his best starter, Mordecai Brown on one-day's rest. This stratagem had actually worked in Game Four. But not this time. The Hitless Wonders beat him up for 7 runs in the first two innings. Ballgame.
bpoz - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#415743) #
Thank you Magpie.

If I ever see the Jays win 116 games, I will take it and enjoy. Playoff are a different creature in that very soon there is no tomorrow for someone.
85bluejay - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#415744) #
Congratulations to Max Castillo - one of the happiest promotions in years - always considered a non-prospect, here's hoping he takes the ball and runs with it.

uglyone - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#415745) #
I've actually always considered Castillo a real prospect, and a safe prospect, but not ever a really good prospect.

His milb numbers have almost always been rock solid, especially since he's always been young for his levels and since he's almost always been used as a fulltime SP (I.e. averaging well over 5ip per outing), and despite always only having a middling K rate.

What's interesting though is that something has clearly changed this year in stuff and/or approach - for the first time ever he's actually putting up real K rates this year, though that's also been accompanied by a big jump in BB rate too (though not to a dangerous level). Maybe he's got a new pitch this year or maybe he's just decided to pitch less to contact this year, but either way something has changed.
bpoz - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#415746) #
Nice to see Max Castillo being promoted. I always liked him. I read an article (don't know where) that Max is working with the fitness staff on diet and exercises of various kinds. His velocity keeps increasing from game to game it was said to 95 mph. Maybe/hopefully 97mph now. He turned 23 in May so very young.

He now has a new way of succeeding compared to his old way. His ML results will be very interesting to me because his success was not appreciated because of his way of pitching.

I like to compare him to Shaun Anderson. Anderson impressed enough in the minors and was given ML opportunity.
Lylemcr - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#415747) #
"Rather than the third best record in the league, they could have the second-best? I suppose, but they're definitely going to need better starting pitching."

No, I am talking about not being embarrassed by the Yankees. Yay! We are second best! The problem is that there are too many Leaf fans in Toronto and mediocracy is ok. Is Vlady Jr's legacy going to be at best a bunch of Wild card game losses? We can have a parade 25 years from now celebrating how it was the best team to ever lose a wild card game.

Look at that lineup and compare it to the Yankees. Other than the bullpen, it could be argued that it is as good, if not better.
uglyone - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#415748) #
Don't compare the jays to the Leafs.

These Jays are now on their 2nd year of 90ish wins pace, a borderline top-10 team, after four prior years of futility.

The Leafs are a consistent elite top-5 team and a no doubters playoffs team for years now.
Gerry - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#415749) #
Casey Lawrence gets bumped to make way for Maximo.
Lylemcr - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#415750) #
Elite #5 team with no Stanley cups. That window is closing. They will be like the ottawa Senators and the San Jose Sharks. Just a good team...

I hope we want a higher bar for the Jays! I think with this young solid core, I think we can hold a higher standard and get a couple world series here.

What would be worst is if we always get second to the Yankees.

I hate losing to the yankees and I hate it when we roll over and say, well, it is the Yankees they are better than us. I can guarantee you, a Yankee fan has never said that about the Jays.

This weekend should have been a big showdown. BUT...

Well, it is embarrassing 10-1 and 6-0.

Gut check please!
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#415751) #
Other than the bullpen, it could be argued that it is as good, if not better.

I suppose one can argue anything if you've got your heart set on it. It seems pretty obvious to me that the biggest gap between the two teams is the starting rotation. The Yankees have four guys pitching at an elite level, plus Gerrit Cole who's merely been good. The Jays have one, plus Gausman's been good.
Lylemcr - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#415752) #
BTW, the Red Sox are creeping up. The Jays could be 4th soon.


Let's do this. If you were to start this fantasy year, and build a team from the Yankees-Jays, who would it look like?

1st - Vlady > Rizzo (This is close now, but it shouldn't be)
2nd - Torres > Espinal
SS - Bichette > IKF
3rd - Wash - I would pick Chapman because he is not injury prone.
C - Jays > Yankees
RF - Gurriel > Hicks
CF - Judge > Springer
LF - Teoscar > Stanton (This is at the beginning of the year. Stanton is due to put on the IL soon)
DH - Wash -


Closer - Holmes is crazy this year.

The bullpen - All yankees here.

Top 5 pitchers (Now remember, we are talking on paper
- Cole
- Gausman
- Berrios
Then you would have to pick a couple. Here is the big difference this year. The Yankees are getting incredible mileage from Cortes, Taillon, Servino and Montgomery.

The Jays, Berrios, Ryu and Kikuchi. All so so.

We can blame all those players, or the coaching.
Lylemcr - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#415753) #
I am mad...

Because I hate losing.(Especially to the Yankees)

I am going to use a Shoresy line. "The problem with this team is that they don't hate to lose enough."

It is like when Montoyo was thrown out yesterday. It was hardly an event. His pitchers was getting squeezed and a horrible call just happened. He should be Lou Pinella mad. Fire up his team! Give them a pulse.

But he doesn't hate losing enough... And that is why he should be fired.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#415754) #
We can blame all those players, or the coaching.

I'm not sure what to blame anybody for. Even at this apparently disastrous pace, they'll win 92 games. That's despite the rather large problems in the rotation, which may actually get addressed at some point over the next three months and change. I do think they can play better. And I think they will. We're not even halfway there.

It's even possible that the Yankees won't continue playing like the best team the game has seen in more than a hundred years for the entire six months.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#415755) #
I am mad...

Well, you need to calm down!

This is baseball. It's not to be confused with hockey or football. You don't make things better by trying even harder. You do that and you almost always make things worse. Baseball's more like golf or billiards. It requires a degree of calm. You can't play golf with your teeth clenched and your hands choking the club.

That's actually one of the hardest things for young players to learn. Not to try to hit a three run homer every time at bat. Not to try to throw 110 mph when there are men on base.
hypobole - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#415756) #
"The problem with this team is that they don't hate to lose enough."

So true. If every team hated losing enough, every team would end up 162-0.
Mike Green - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#415757) #
Gabriel Moreno gets a second day of rest so that Teoscar can rest his weary legs and DH. 
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#415758) #
Trivia Question! I'll bet no one can guess which current MLB manager gets ejected most frequently. Hint: it's not Montoyo, although he has been ejected more frequently in his brief career than Lou Piniella was in his.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#415759) #
Merde! Data Entry error. Montoyo and Piniella both average about 1 ejection about every 55 games, but Piniella leads by the hair on his chinny-chin-chin. Charlie needs to get the heave some time in the next three weeks to overtake.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#415760) #
"Help us, Yusei Kikuchi. You're our only hope."
lexomatic - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#415761) #
Looks like Sportsnet has decided to screw up again so no watching the game for me.
Not recognizing my account and not recognizing when I sign in.
lexomatic - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#415762) #
Well I got signed in but I missed the home run because of it. Why is Sportsnet so awful.
krose - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#415763) #
Game changing bad call in the first inning? Umpire has to have done that intentionally! Too obvious to be otherwise.
krose - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#415764) #
Severino now rolling. Telling oneself no team is really as good as when they are peaking. The Yanks will come back to earth…and still be very good.
krose - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#415765) #
Does Kikuchi pitch like he’s afraid to make a mistake?
Gerry - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#415766) #
Nate Pearson threw to pitches today and then left the game with what looked like an arm injury.
uglyone - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#415767) #
"Elite #5 team with no Stanley cups. That window is closing."

Hmm.

Matthews 24 - Guerrero 23
Marner 24 --- Manoah 23
Nylander 25 - Bichette 24

Tavares 31 -- Springer 32
Rielly 27 --- Berrios 28
Brodie 31 --- Gausman 31

Muzzin 32 --- Kikuchi 31
Bunting 26 -- Espinal 27
Kerfoot 27 -- Teoscar 29

Kampf 26 ---- Chapman 29
Liljegren 22 - Kirk 23
Sandin 21 ---- Moreno 22



Kasi - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#415768) #
Even Cimber being pounded here. Anyway Yankees clearly showed Tampa and us this week who is boss in this division. Doesn’t mean we won’t make the playoffs but I think it does mean the division race is over and it’s about wild card for the other 3 good teams in the division.
Kelekin - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#415769) #
Welcome to the big leagues, Max.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#415770) #
My sweet Lourdes!
Nigel - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#415771) #
I'd flip Kirk and Bichette in this lineup.
Gerry - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#415772) #
Pearson has shoulder discomfort.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#415773) #
Moderately entertaining game at the ballyard today
lexomatic - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#415774) #
<br> this is the type of catching g up with the offense that I hoped foe in thr first 2 games that never materialized.
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#415776) #
Had 'em all the way.

(I always wanted to do that!)
hypobole - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#415777) #
Huge confidence booster for the team. I hope.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#415778) #
Moderately entertaining game at the ballyard today

Moderately.
Magpie - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#415779) #
Hey, they homered for the cycle. That can't happen very often.
uglyone - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#415780) #
Love seeing that grit.
dalimon5 - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#415781) #
Fire Montoyo
Dr. Zarco - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#415782) #
It’s annoyingly difficult to look up team HR cycles. It appears quite common. What I’m shocked by is that there have been 92 team HR cycles on only 4 hits. That seems nearly impossible. That’s a lot of non-hit baserunners.
Dr. Zarco - Sunday, June 19 2022 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#415783) #
Sorry. I’m not very bright. That’s 92 team cycles on 4 hits. Not HR cycles. And that was as of 2011.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:31 AM EDT (#415784) #
Lots of gloom and doom here the past while - except Magpie. Gotta work on your histrionics Magpie, they are very much lacking.

All projection systems have the Jays winning more than 90 games. No system has any other AL wild card team winning 90.

Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 06:06 AM EDT (#415785) #
Lots of gloom and doom here the past while - except Magpie.

It's supposed to be fun! And it is fun! It's always fun! One gets to make a big emotional investment with no consequences! That's as close to perfect as it gets!
bpoz - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 08:37 AM EDT (#415786) #
NYY is on pace to win the most games in both leagues. I suppose that means home field advantage. However I think chances are pretty good that they are not in the WS because there could be 2 other strong AL teams and things often don't work out.

The Jays are only 2.5 games ahead of the 7th place AL team. A nice position but not safe. Who really is safe? NYY and Houston because LAA is their closest competitor and are 33-36 now.

Some Bauxites are suggesting that a strong acquisition by the trade deadline is good but not really a necessity. I prefer not to debate this view just in case friction arises. My view is smaller acquisitions but they may not be enough. Last year all except Berrios were smaller acquisitions.

I expect many trade propositions from the media which should generate a lot of discussion. That is all I expect.



92-93 - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#415787) #
How dare anybody even be remotely displeased with the fact that the Jays are 11 games back of a team they were projected to be better than. Extend Montoyo.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#415788) #
Here's an analogy. Your kid was projected to be class valedictorian with a 92 average. Your kid gets a 93 average, but some other kid gets a 99. How displeased should you be with your kid? Because if you berate your kid about that, what kind of parent are you?

Jays pre-season were projected to win 92.4 games at Fangraphs. Jays are currently projected to win 92.9 games at Fangraphs. Jays have been better than projected! And that's with having played 12 games against the Yankees already. Yeah, it's Montoyo's fault we've been better than projected.
uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#415789) #
You best be happy it only took 7yrs for the FO to build a team as good as it inherited.
John Northey - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#415790) #
Jays were projected to be best in the east, but the Yankees are having a 1984 Tigers year - where they get off to a fast start and would need a total collapse to not make it. These things have happened (1978 Red Sox for example - up by 9 on August 13th, but behind the Yankees by September 13th, and famously lost in a game 163 to the Yankees after an 8 game winning streak to force that game). In 1984 the Jays fought hard but couldn't catch the Tigers who started 35-5, thus up 8 1/2 on May 24th, Jays within 3 1/2 on June 6th but that was as close as it got. Jays were within 7 1/2 on September 4th but that was the last gasp. If there was a wild card then the Jays would've had it by 2 games.
bpoz - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#415791) #
True about this team being good like the 2015 team. How do the 2015/22 teams compare on June 20 of both years and again how will they compare by the trade deadline. I have to say the team record after the 2015 trade deadline was the best ever by the Jays in my memory.
electric carrot - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#415792) #
I remember those 84 Tigers well. I don't think these Yankees are as good as that team -- particularly the pitching. I am expecting some regression to mean. Can the Jays catch the Yanks? Well, in my view the Jays can -- the main factor being that the Yankees pitching falls to earth.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#415793) #
Obsessive compulsive replies to the passive aggressive. :)
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#415794) #
You best be happy it only took 7yrs for the FO to build a team as good as it inherited.

Well, I think the main reason it took that long was because they wasted three years trying to squeeze the last drops out of goodness out of the team they inherited instead getting on with building something new. The actual rebuild, once commenced, has gone rather nicely. I certainly don't recollect losing 100 games over and over along the way.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#415795) #
I don't think these Yankees are as good as [the 1984 Tigers] -- particularly the pitching.

To this point, the Yankees have been better. The 1984 Tigers, like this year's Yankees, also were the best in the league at a) scoring runs, and b) preventing runs scored. But these Yankees are further ahead of the other teams in both aspects of the game than the Tigers were.

But once more - it's only been ten weeks or so. More than half the games still have to be played. Coming to conclusions about anything is just a little premature.
92-93 - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#415796) #
If your kid was projected to be class valedictorian and then gets handily destroyed by another kid in their class you can either settle with the idea your kid just isn't as smart as you thought, or you could look over at the other desks and see what your kid is missing and try to provide them the tools necessary to improve their performance.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#415797) #
Before we leave this thread, some Yankees facts.

They have played 21 series so far. Won 17.
7 - 3 game sweeps.
1 - 2 game sweep.
2 - 3 W/1 L
7 - 2 W/1 L

The other 4.
2 - 2 W/2 L
2 - 1 W/2 L.

Jays and Rays with the 4 game splits. The only teams to win a series against the Yankees? The White Sox and (drum roll) the Orioles.




hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#415798) #
Your kid did better than you thought he would, so he's not as smart as you thought.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#415799) #
I don't think it's the Blue Jays fault that the 2022 Yankees so far are winning games more frequently than any team has done in more than 100 years. It's not going to help them in October anyway.

As for the 1984 Tigers, I think the Yankees' pitching - especially the starters - is far more impressive. That rotation included Milt Wilcox and Juan Berenguer. Who weren't bad by any means, but Taillon, Severino, and Montgomery are better than both of them. (They might be better than Morris and Petry.)
uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#415800) #
But, much like you blame them for not going full into a rebuild at the start, you could blame them for not going full out to win at this time.
BlueJayWay - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#415801) #
Well, I think the main reason it took that long was because they wasted three years trying to squeeze the last drops out of goodness out of the team they inherited instead getting on with building something new. The actual rebuild, once commenced, has gone rather nicely. I certainly don't recollect losing 100 games over and over along the way.

True. Also, I imagine that squeezing was done largely at the behest of ownership. Didn't Shapiro even say that he originally wanted to start the rebuild right away, but when they won the division in 2015 they had to change tack? Everyone seems to consider hanging onto Donaldson for as long as they did an ownership directive as well. The rebuild itself went pretty quick.
electric carrot - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#415802) #
I think the Yankees' pitching - especially the starters - is far more impressive.

I agree. But for Taillon and Montgomery in particular they are both statistically far better than they have been any other year (Cortes too.) Is this going to stay true for the next two thirds of the season? I don't expect so.
Mike Green - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#415803) #
The Jays' edge on the Yankees was (unusually) bullpen depth.  They didn't take full advantage of that.  They needed to work Taillon every bit as hard as the Yankees worked Manoah.  Instead, they tried to be heroes. 

The Yankees' significant injuries have been to the pen.  Other teams have to work the count on their starters.  That's doable.  None of them, even Cole, are truly overpowering. 

I had not fully appreciated how much the Yankee defence had improved.  A lot of weight is on Judge though.  Hicks is a poor centerfielder at this stage in his career. 
85bluejay - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#415804) #
We all rationalize to support our view - When the 2013 Jays severely underperformed John Gibbons detractors wanted him gone while supporters found reasons to shift the blame and felt the 2015 season more reflected his managerial abilities-I'd suspect the same holds true for Charlie Montoyo.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#415805) #
The one regret I have is that we never got to see what the Shapiro/AA tandem could have accomplished. Beeston is much beloved by Jays fandom, but I'm the outlier on that. His roots were accounting, Shapiro's was player development.

Beeston talked about sustained winning, but the the "payroll parameters" almost always came up. Shapiro's vision has completely transformed the organization top to bottom and Atkins has far more resources than AA was ever provided by Beeston.

Just my opinion, but a very deep-felt opinion.

uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#415806) #
"but when they won the division in 2015 they had to change tack?"

Read that sentence again. And again. And again.

Glevin - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#415807) #
Thinks jays need to make a trade soon. Not because of any of their holes (5th starter, reliever, LH OF) are crippling but they are all deficits and having 3 everyday catchers seems like a waste of resources. I love all 3 of the guys but it's just inefficient to keep them all while Tapia plays regularly and /Richards pitches in key spots. I'd love the Jays to go all out or something like Reynolds/Bednar or Happ/David Robertso etc...

Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#415808) #
you could blame them for not going full out to win at this time.

Wait and see. I think Atkins needs to improve the rotation. He added Berrios last year, he needs to do likewise this year. I think Pablo Lopez is the most realistic prospect. I think the price will be Alejandro Kirk. I think that's what going full out to win looks like for the 2022 team.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#415809) #
much like you blame them for not going full into a rebuild at the start

To be clear, I don't really blame Atkins for that. It obviously didn't work, and I suppose it was always fairly predictable that it wasn't going to work. But it's simply really hard to just dismantle a team that was one of the last four still standing, especially in a market that hadn't seen any kind of success in a generation.
bpoz - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#415810) #
This is my opinion but it really feels like facts:

Ryu signed a 4/$80mil contract. Opinion/fact is that it is so far very poor value. The Jays got a covid discount for 2020. Maybe he comes back and pitches the Jays to a WS championship. Unlikely but baseball is strange.

We needed a solid pitcher and Ryu was that at acquisition. Also successfully getting a Boras client seems unusual to me.

I feel bad for Pearson but he has not hurt our payroll.

I stressed a bit that acquiring Clayton Richard (veteran) would somehow prevent Borucki from being a part of the 2019 rotation. I was wrong.

No fact just opinion. I am betting against a big trade at the deadline.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#415811) #
Extend Montoyo.

Patience, Grasshopper. It will happen.

If the team continues to stumble along at their present pace, and doesn't improve their performance - they'll finish 93-69. Which would give Montoyo two 90 win seasons in his three full years at the helm. That's more than Bobby Cox or Jimy Williams achieved in four seasons, more than John Gibbons had in ten.

Man, some heads are going to explode. I should sell tickets.
Nigel - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#415812) #
I really like Lopez but, whoooo boy, I'm not sure I could get happy with dealing Kirk for him. I understand why that would be the ask though.

Its a balancing act - I would probably vote to add a back end starter and another high leverage reliever before adding another front of the rotation starter. There are budgetary issues over the next 2-3 years that have to be looked at whether we agree with them or not and adding a Lopez would put a ton of money in the SP kitty.
uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#415813) #
"But it's simply really hard "

Agreed, GMing requires hard, bold decisions.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#415814) #
I understand why that would be the ask though.

Yeah, that hurts. But the Marlins are apparently on the hunt for a "two-way centre fielder" (a guy who can hit and field, I suppose) and a middle-of-the-order bat. Not only is Kirk a middle of the order bat, they also need a catcher. You got to give to get. I'm not yet sold on going into a post-season series with one of Stripling or Kikuchi as one of my starters.
greenfrog - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#415815) #
Kirk > Lopez for me. Kirk is the most valuable position player by WAR on the team right now. He's a 23-year-old with a wRC+ of 147 and improved defense, and he's controllable through 2026. Lopez is controllable through 2024 and has had shoulder issues in the past.

In terms of adding starting pitching, I would rather see the Jays find a creative way to add a less-heralded but competent SP for a prospect or two, the way they did in the Stripling trade.
bpoz - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#415816) #
Yesterday Kikuchi was not good. Not shocking but Cimber being bad was shocking. Down 6-3 Max was brought in. I thought that was the right decision because our offense is not usually able to comeback and tomorrow is another game and we need our better relievers. 2 Hr by Max. Garcia was good but not Mayza.

I still believe in Max.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#415817) #
but when they won the division in 2015 they had to change tack?

I know, it sounds crazy, it's counter-intuitive in about a million ways - but that's really what happened. When Shapiro was negotiating to take the job, of course he assumed he was going to hire a new GM and start the rebuild. He was taking over a team that was puttering along at .500 and whose best players were already on the wrong side of 30 (all except for the one who turned 30 a couple of months after the season ended.) Of course the rebuild was going to begin right away.

Then they went and played like the 2022 Yankees for two months. The best laid plans...
92-93 - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#415818) #
When was the last time a contender traded a regular away in the middle of a season? Kirk has no business going anywhere but up in the batting order.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#415819) #
Agree with 92-93. No way the team should or will trade Kirk.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#415820) #
No way the team should or will trade Kirk.

Well, it's not like anyone wants to. But I don't think they can even make an offer for Castillo or Montas - those teams are looking for prospects and unless you're willing to part with Moreno or Martinez, nothing can happen. Atkins could surprise me, but I don't think he'd want to do that.

Which pretty much leaves Lopez, if you're looking for someone who might actually represent an upgrade on what you have, who you'd be happy to have starting games in October.

Obviously, you can't do it unless you're sure that Moreno is ready right now, especially as Jansen seems to be made of glass. But I think that's what they need, and I think that's what it's going to cost.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#415821) #
Hey, the Not-So-Handsome One said "hard, bold decisions!"
greenfrog - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#415822) #
If the Jays trade Kirk, it should be for a player they've specifically targeted (the way they targeted Jose Ramirez in the off-season). They shouldn't trade him for the BPA just because they could use another starting pitcher.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#415823) #
When was the last time a contender traded a regular away in the middle of a season?

I'm sure it's not common. Off the top of my head, all I can think of is Detroit sending out their centre fielder, Austin Jackson, in the David Price deal.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#415824) #
If the Jays trade Kirk, it should be for a player they've specifically targeted

Lopez is the player I've specifically targeted! He's the one that I want!

Doesn't mean I'd make the trade. I think that's the price, but I don't know that Moreno is ready right now, and I don't trust Jansen not to pull something else three weeks from now.
uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#415825) #
"When was the last time a contender traded a regular away in the middle of a season?"

When was the last time a contender traded away its BEST HITTER in the middle of a season?
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#415826) #
Depending on the return, I'd have no problem with the Jays trading Orelvis.

Speaking of turning players in the Jays system into ex-Jays, the 3 best ex-Jays pitchers this year per FG are Joe Musgrove, Taijaun Walker and Noah Syndergaard.

Who are the 3 best position players? It's definitely not who one would think.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#415827) #
Depending on the return, I'd have no problem with the Jays trading Orelvis.

I was just about to ask if we should instead consider Orelvis for Castillo!
lexomatic - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#415828) #
Agree with greenfrog - no way do I want Lopez.
Way too much time lost to injury. less control, older. Kirk is worth more now, and has way more projectability (https://blogs.fangraphs.com/alejandro-kirk-isnt-your-average-catcher) due to performance at MLB level with so little minior league experience before. Also you have to discount Miami pitching performance a bit due to the humidity.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#415829) #
Who are the 3 best position players? It's definitely not who one would think.

I have no idea. How random can I get? Uh... Harold Ramirez? Jonathan Villar? Reese McGuire?
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#415830) #
Oh hell, Brandon Drury's got to be one of them.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#415831) #
Drury it is. Per FG, he's having the best season by any ex-Jay other than Musgrove.
92-93 - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#415832) #
Fantasy players know it's Berti, he's stealing a lot of bases down in Miami.
Lylemcr - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#415833) #
I was freaking out Saturday.

Sunday was so much better. The thing that made me happy was when Teoscar started cheering and looking at the Yankees after he hit his homerun. This is the fire I want to see.

That being said, we need bullpen help. Bullpen help could be getting a starter and putting Stripling in the bullpen. They need that fireballer to handle spot situations
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#415834) #
I don't play fantasy and obviously don't pay enough attention to the mediocre Marlins. Berti surprised me, especially having 1.5 fWAR in only 37 games.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#415835) #
So Druru and Berti and... you're sure it's not Reese McGuire? He's holding his own, surely.

Hey, what about Rowdy?
greenfrog - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#415836) #
It's worth remembering that one reason the Yankees are so dominant in 2022 is that they've been stingy in trading away their better prospects. For example, they reportedly could have acquired Price at the 2015 deadline had they been willing to relinquish Severino.
bpoz - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#415837) #
Very nice discussion. Well said about hard and bold. Stroman is the best pitcher to leave us in quite a few years IMO. Maybe since Halladay left. Yet Stroman is behind Musgrove, Walker and Syndergaard. Baseball is not easy to predict. So were the baseball predicters wrong about the performance evaluations of the 4 ex Jay pitchers?

The Jays ownership needs to be reevaluated IMO. We cannot say that they are cheap or/and greedy. Greedy because they wanted the revenue that the playoff 2015/16 team provided. Not cheap because they paid Bautista for 2017 and made a very good offer to EE. Also paying Ryu, Springer, Berrios, Gausman.

Of course we don't know how expensive they are willing to go. The ownership team responsible for the Jays payroll must be some kind of group. I have a feeling that they may not know their own minds regarding cost. Instead there is probably a framework of some kind which may be generous at this time if 2022 generates good revenue.
John Northey - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#415838) #
FanGraphs has the Jays in excellent shape - 96% shot at the postseason. Better odds are the Yankees (100%), Astros (99.4%), Mets (96.8%). The mighty Dodgers are only at 92.7%, Rays at 61%. I like those odds.

Now, the big challenge is how to get better - plan out the playoffs, you need to maximize your 1-9 and your pen. #5 starter is a 'who the (#&! cares', #1/2/3 are obviously Manoah, Gausman, Berrios. Stripling is #4 right now with Kikuchi #5. Another #1 type would be nice but very expensive. Cheaper is another reliever to join Romano-Gacia-Cimber-Mayza-Phelps. Thornton-Merryweather-Richards have all shown hope now and then but I don't trust any of them in key situations. Gage I have hope for, while Beasley & Lawrence have also shown hope but I wouldn't bet on any of them. This is the easiest area to improve, but also the most crapshoot area. A guy can look great in the pen one day, lousy the next.

As always, the other area of obvious improvement needed is the OF - Tapia and Zimmer are flops by any measure. Tapia now a -8.1 on defense. Yikes!!!! Go over the last 10 years combined and his under half a season is 11th worst total for the Jays - the only guy who played less (1 game less) and had as bad or worse was Derek Fisher (-9.1 in 56 games), Chris Colabello in 111 was a -14.8 which is very ugly. The top 4 all did their badness over 300+ games (Bautista the worst, then Teoscar, then Gurriel. No wonder the Jays got Zimmer). FYI: Pillar the best rated over that decade with +22.8, then Gose at 5.1 in just 146 games (now a pitcher). Zimmer is #5 with his 1.1. Says something about the Jays and how they view OF defense. Darin Mastroianni in just 14 games was a 1.2 a shame he couldn't hit (54 OPS+ lifetime). Ah for the days of Devon White in CF, or Pillar.
greenfrog - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#415839) #
I still think Moreno for Carroll could be a fair and productive trade. This would give the Jays an elite quartet of outfielders in 2022 and 2023 (perfect for load management and injury depth), with center field covered for years to come. Like catcher, center field has long been a position of weakness in the Jays organization. But those types of trades basically never happen anymore.
Magpie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#415840) #
New thread up to commence the Road Trip!
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#415841) #
Rowdy had that May power surge, but since has just been good, which for a 1B with poor D is not much. Reece worth just a bit more than Rowdy. But the answer is a catcher.
mathesond - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#415846) #
"But the answer is a catcher."

Surely not Ernie Whitt!



uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#415850) #
For the record I would much much much rather use our financial heft to trade for a good but overpaid player with term instead of a good cheaper player that will cost us a top young asset.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#415853) #
The final ex-Jay is Travis D'Arnaud, having another solid season for AA in Atlanta.
Glevin - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#415856) #
"For the record I would much much much rather use our financial heft to trade for a good but overpaid player with term instead of a good cheaper player that will cost us a top young asset."

Can't think of a single player like that right now. Plenty of overpaid bad players or injured players or guys like Bryant who have long deals but a good player on a non-contender making a big salary? Bumgarner, Votto, a lot of meh or crazy long deals.
uglyone - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#415857) #
There's gotta be some somewhere.
hypobole - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#415858) #
Last 2 notes. Yankees have had winning streaks of 9 and 11 games this year. Jays ended both.

Unsung hero from yesterday was Yimi Garcia. Only Jays pitcher the entire series to retire all batters he faced, 3 of the 4 with K's.
Hodgie - Monday, June 20 2022 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#415866) #
The better half and I flew in for the weekend to catch the series and NY is impressive to say the least. Seeing Stanton, Judge, and Gallo patrolling the OF is fearsome and a little unfair as they ran down balls at the track all weekend. Magpie is of course correct about trying too hard. I’m still confused as to what the game plan was at the plate, for the majority of the series Jays hitters looked completely lost and were just swinging hard and praying for good things. Both Moreno and Kirk were fun to watch behind the plate, with Kirk looking like a completely different player back there. I’d be loathe to trade either of them. Watched the third game from CF and maybe it was just us, but it sure didn’t seem like Kikuchi was able to finish 2 subsequent pitches the same way - by the third inning it started to look like interpretative dance on the mound. Entertaining yes, effective no.
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