Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

Alek Manoah has been sent down to A ball.

As most have been expecting Manoah went down to try to figure out what is wrong without it hurting the Jays. This was part of a batch of non-surprising moves...

RHP Chris Bassitt reinstated from the paternity list; INF Santiago Espinal reinstated from injured list; RHP Bowden Francis selected to Major League roster; INF Ernie Clement optioned to Triple-A Buffalo; RHP Jay Jackson optioned to Triple-A Buffalo; RHP Alek Manoah optioned to the Florida Complex League

I'd assume Francis will start on Friday - Francis was broken in last year with 2/3 IP giving up 1 hit and getting 1 K. This year he had 1 game in Dunedin, plus 4 starts in AAA 15 2/3 IP, 17 H 7 R 6 ER 4 HR (3 in one start before going on the IL) 4 BB 23 SO 1 WP 1 HBP. 2 starts in AAA, then was hurt, 1 A start to rehab, then 2 more in AAA. His last start was 4 2/3 IP 7 H 3 R/ER 1 BB 4 SO.

Part of me wonders if Francis will start or just be used in long relief for now, making Saturday a bullpen day. His last start was May 31st so he is ready to pitch tonight.

Posted by John Northey on Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 04:05 PM EDT.

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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Nigel - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#429748) #

My guess is that Francis’ role is dependent on what happens tonight and tomorrow. I’d guess they want him to start but if Gausman gets shelled tonight they need someone to soak up innings.

John Northey - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#429749) #

Agreed. Hopefully Gausman and Bassitt are on - boy could the Jays use a complete game one of those two days.

scottt - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#429751) #

I would have brought a reliever until the next series.
Either they don't trust Hatch to pitch a couple of blow out innings or he wasn't available in the short term.

Using Francis as a long man would create more problems.
They'd probably have to do a bullpen day when they need a starter.

Zach Thompson got DFAed. I would guess he'd become a free agent if unclaimed/untraded.

Hudchison opted out of his deal on June 3, btw.

Manoah seemed to be doing what they didn't want him to do: move away from the slider/sinker combo that made him effective.
He added a change up this year. He seemed to throw a curve yesterday along with a 4-seamer.

It's a mixed blessing that Manoah refused to sign an extension over the winter.
Shades of Aaron Sanchez. (Both inked up with Boras early on.)

electric carrot - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#429754) #

I'm happy that this is happening. I think it's about two starts too late -- but let's hope it helps bring 2022 Manoah back to life.

hypobole - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#429755) #

Zach Thompson got DFAed. I would guess he'd become a free agent if unclaimed/untraded.

If he passes through waivers, Jays can outright him to Buffalo. He's never been outrighted before and doesn't have the 3 yrs service time to become a free agent.

mathesond - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#429763) #

I was remembering how much joy Manoah seemed to bring to the park the last couple of seasons, especially moments like putting the HR jacket on whomever gave the team the lead in a game he started, as well as chatting up the dugout on his pitching days. I couldn't help but wonder if maybe breaking up the barrio affected him more than Vladdy et al.

Mike Green - Tuesday, June 06 2023 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#429771) #

I hadn't thought about that, mathesond. It could be.

ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, June 07 2023 @ 03:18 AM EDT (#429774) #

I think it was his own poor performance that made him less joyous on the bench more than anything.

bpoz - Wednesday, June 07 2023 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#429776) #

Manoah really, really believes in himself. Past results have shown this. Whatever went wrong this year, pitch clock adjustment maybe, I expect he will return better than ever. Hope at the complex he develops his Ch, CU and improves velocity.

scottt - Wednesday, June 07 2023 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#429782) #

I am not very optimistic.
He was a 2-pitch pitcher with an unhittable slider and a 2-seamer with extreme movement.
For whatever reason, his slider is now below average and he can't seem to throw the fastball where he wants.
Adding new pitches would put him behind a bunch of guys in A-ball.

He needs to remember how to throw that good slider.

Other options:
Mitch White, Hayden Juenger, Yosver Zulueta as bulk pitchers.
Casey Lawrence.

Down the line, Ryu, Tiedemann, maybe Kloff.

Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 07 2023 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#429813) #

for the record, was Alek Manoah (6' 6" listed 285 lbs.) the heaviest player in MLB?

85bluejay - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#429841) #

Looks like the MLB analyst who criticized Alex Manoah during the offseason for his poor workout habits was right!

Kasi - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#429846) #

You can’t outwork a bad diet.

lexomatic - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#429849) #

I have to speak up about the fat phobic weight comments.
We have zero info about what's happening or whether it is in any way affected by weight. Please stop with the weight comments. We all know society wants fat people to get skinny, die, or otherwise disappear. No need for everybody to keep adding another weight related comment to why Manoah has underperformed.

85bluejay - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#429852) #

I'm sorry Lexomatic but you are the person talking about fat.

John Northey - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#429853) #

When it comes to weight MLB has had tons of success stories. Bartoli Colon, David Wells, heck Babe Ruth all come to mind right away. Meanwhile guys who look super fit can live on the IL like Nate Pearson.

hypobole - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#429854) #

We're not fat-shaming Susie in accounting nor should we. These are professional athletes and physical fitness, at least to a certain degree, should be a requisite.

Vlad realised this when he arrived grossly out of shape in 2020. He apologised to his team mates. Why?

I'm overweight. But no one pays me a million dollars for my physical abilities. No one pays over $10,000 for a pair of seats to watch me do my thing. If you don't care whether the team you pay to watch isn't up to a reasonable standard of fitness that's fine. But I do.

92-93 - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#429857) #

Performance is the only requisite, and I'm skeptical that people can actually tell Manoah (or Vladdy/Kirk) is any bigger than they were when they experienced great success.

Mike Green - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#429859) #

That's fair, 92-93. In 2020, VGJ did look quite out of shape. This year, to my eyes, it's more of a marginal thing and I am no expert and accordingly reluctant to ascribe disappointing performance to weight. Similarly with Kirk and Manoah, 2023.

I mean, Mark Buehrle looked to be somewhat overweight and unathletic until one saw him coming off the mound to field a ball.

greenfrog - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#429861) #

I’m wondering if this is somewhat akin to what Rick Ankiel went through. Early career regular-season success and recognition as a young phenom SP, followed by a disconcerting post-season meltdown, leading to a career-ending loss of confidence on the mound.

Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, June 08 2023 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#429874) #

LeBron James is listed at 6' 9" and 250 lbs.

stamina, quickness, and agility are the general limitations, by my observation, when an athlete's size exceeds 6' 8" or 6' 9" to the range of 6' 10" to 7' 0" and beyond.
the Raptors assembled many players in this model. (to fit the spread-defense basketball strategy.)

as to the question of corresponding weight?
a lighter and trim build will reduce the load on the lower body, namely for the hips, knees, and ankles.
strong legs are key for pitchers, like Roger Clemens.

CC Sabathia and Bartolo Colón were power pitchers.
Babe Ruth swinging a 50 oz. bat in 1923 is interesting to consider.
Tom Henke or Big John Mayberry Sr. come to mind.

players weigh-in on a daily basis, as far as I know.

professional wrestlers can compare too.
undisputed WWE champion Roman Reigns is listed at 6' 3" and 265 lbs.

ISLAND BOY - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 03:07 AM EDT (#429883) #

Well, it is professional wrestling. How do you know that their stats aren't fake, too?

Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 04:15 AM EDT (#429884) #

Hulk Hogan in " Rocky III " (1982) was billed about 100 pounds heavier than he really was.

" the Ultimate Male . . . the Ultimate Object of Desire . . . Thunderlips! "

I trust WWE referees more than MLB umpires.

scottt - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 06:32 AM EDT (#429886) #

Ankiel couldn't throw a strike.
Manoah has lost the bite on his slider.
He can throw strikes, but he gets hit hard.

There are a tons of relievers who are 2 pitch guys.
Many of these guys go from good years to bad years.
Just look at Bass. Elite slider last year, ERA around 5 this year.

Also, Ankiel was up as a pitcher when he was only 19, started 30 games when he was the second youngest player in the league. His problem started in the playoffs that year when he threw 5 wild pitches in one game.
He was demoted the next year and had TJ the following year.

Ryan Day - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#429888) #

This article from last year about Kirk has some interesting comments from Benjie Molia about weight & conditioning - both that he thinks improved conditioning could have improved his career, and also that nobody cares what you look like as long as you perform. (No one cared what Kirk & Manoah looked like last year at the All Star game.)

I don't think anyone would say conditioning doesn't matter, but I also don't think you can pinpoint it as the sole cause of any given issue.

greenfrog - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 08:36 AM EDT (#429889) #

"Ankiel couldn't throw a strike. Manoah has lost the bite on his slider"

Manoah's BB% was 2.33 in 2022. This year, it's 6.52. That statistic reflects a lot more than loss of bite on his slider.

hypobole - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#429893) #

Exactly. For those who missed it, here is a deep dive into Manoah's issues from a few weeks back.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/alek-manoah-is-falling-apart-at-the-seams/

Also as predicted, Thompson cleared waivers and has been outrighted to Buffalo. Hutch signed a minor league deal with the Phillies.

scottt - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#429894) #

The slider used to start near the middle of the plate and break late.
They couldn't take it, it was a strike. Now, it's either a hit or a ball.

Hits are up from 6.6/9 to 10.6/9. HR rate is near double.
He may be walking them at 3 time the rate, but he's also giving them an extra hit with each extra walk.
With the improved defense, the hit rate should have actually gone down.
He's throwing BP out there.

He's got 3 wild pitches for the year. Ankiel had 5 in one inning.

bpoz - Friday, June 09 2023 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#429896) #

Our record is good but with 3 ALE and 2 ALW teams ahead of us we are not in a playoff position. Mainly due to Manoah's difficulties. If the pitchers taking his rotation spot do better than him then the rotation is improved. The pen maybe does not get more rest because his 6 starts were 3.1, 7.0, 4.1, 4.2, 7.0 and 5.0 IP.

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