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Tampa roll into town for a four game series carrying a five game losing streak. Can the Jays continue that losing streak? Monday sees a heavyweight matchup on the mound. Nick Martinez and his 2.65 ERA vs Dylan Cease and his 2.56 ERA.

SCHEDULE

Monday: Martinez vs Cease

Tuesday: Rasmussen vs Gausman

Wednesday: Jax vs TBD (Opener/Miles)

Thursday (3pm): Seymour vs Bieber


Coming out of the all-star break the Jays had to have a winning record in their 16 games before the trade deadline. They have started 1-2. If they lose the series to Tampa, say 1-3, they would be at 2-5 and need to go 7-2 in the other three series to have a winning record. Even a 2-2 record would mean the Jays would need to win three straight series, that has been tough to do this season. Basically its show time, getting close to the last chance.

Rays at Jays: July 20-23; It's Getting Late | 245 comments | Create New Account
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dalimon5 - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#480392) #
Well, the Dodgers are trying to do their part to find the next Louis Varland. They have acquired Seth Halvorsen from the Rockies.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#480395) #
From the other thread with reference to Petriello's X post saying "stars gotta star."

The FO should have expected Springer to fall back to earth and also should have expected Vlad to fall back if he didn't have enough protection or elite bat like Bo hitting around him.

The FO should have traded for a bat after failing to add Tucker and Bo and they definitely should have traded for a bat after learning Santander was injured and they most definitely should have traded for a bat when they learned Barger was injured and absolutely they should trade for a bat now that...wait, no they've lost their chance now.
uglyone - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#480396) #
Plausible Best Lineups using....


This year's stats only:

1. 2B Clement 387pa, .320obp, 108wrc+, 2.2war650
2. RF Lukes 227pa, .339obp, 109wrc+, 2.9war650
3. 3B Okamoto 395pa, .314obp, 114wrc+, 3.5war650
4. LF Sanchez 234pa, .316obp, 108wrc+, 0.3war650
5. C Valenzuela 191pa, .316obp, 105wrc+, 5.8war650
6. 1B Guerrero 399pa, .346obp, 99wrc+, 1.6war650
7. DH Pinango 160pa, .313obp, 103wrc+, 0.0war650
8. CF Varsho 318pa, .305obp, 92wrc+, 2.0war650
9. SS Gimenez 318pa, .275obp, 76wrc+, 3.1war650

B. UT Springer 301pa, .302obp, 93wrc+, 0.0war650
B. OF Straw 169pa, .281obp, 70wrc+, 0.4war650
B. IF Schneider 118pa, .282obp, 68wrc+, -2.2war650
B. C Alejandro 107pa, .290obp, 65wrc+, 2.4war650

X. UT Jimenez 35pa, .343obp, 83wrc+, -1.9war650
X. OF Clase 25pa, .360obp, 153wrc+, 5.2war650
X. IF Urias 32pa, .344obp, 140wrc+, 6.1war650
X. C MacIver ---

X. UT Keys 35pa, .200obp, 32wrc+, -3.7war650
X. OF Barger 28pa, .214obp, 0wrc+, 0.0war650
X. IF Sosa 117pa, .207obp, 30wrc+, -4.4war650
X. IF McAdoo 25pa, .160obp, 13wrc+, -5.2war650





Past 1 Calendar Year Stats

1. LF Springer 527pa, .365obp, 142wrc+, 3.8war650
2. 1B Guerrero 661pa, .359obp, 119wrc+, 2.9war650
3. 3B Okamoto 395pa, .314obp, 114wrc+, 3.5war650
4. CF Varsho 489pa, .307obp, 107wrc+, 3.6war650
5. DH Valenzuela 191pa, .316obp, 105wrc+, 5.8war650
6. SS Clement 629pa, .312obp, 104wrc+, 2.8war650
7. 2B Schneider 252pa, .331obp, 101wrc+, 1.3war650
8. RF Lukes 445pa, .308obp, 100wrc+, 2.3war650
9. C Alejandro 290pa, .310obp, 96wrc+, 4.7war650

B. UT Sanchez 435pa, .299obp, 93wrc+, 0.2war650
B. OF Straw 279pa, .309obp, 92wrc+, 3.0war650
B. UT Barger 260pa, .277obp, 78wrc+, 1.0war650
B. IF Gimenez 449pa, .271obp, 70wrc+, 2.2war650

B. UT Sosa 358pa, .269obp, 83wrc+, 0.2war650
B. OF Pinango 160pa, .313obp, 103wrc+, 0.0war650
B. IF Urias 103pa, .311obp, 83wrc+, 0.6war650
B. C MacIver 59pa, .220obp, 21wrc+, -3.3war650

X. UT Jimenez 35pa, .343obp, 83wrc+, -1.9war659
X. OF Clase 25pa, .360obp, 153wrc+, 5.2war650
X. IF McAdoo 25pa, .160obp, 13wrc+, -5.2war650
X. UT Santander 12pa, .250obp, 17wrc+, -5.4war650




Fangraphs Combined Depth Charts Projections

1. DH Springer 196pa, .332obp, 113wrc+, 2.0war650
2. 1B Guerrero 267pa, .373obp, 136wrc+, 3.9war650
3. 3B Okamoto 242pa, .321obp, 113wrc+, 3.2war650
4. RF Lukes 180pa, .335obp, 107wrc+, 2.5war650
5. C Alejandro 155pa, .343obp, 110wrc+, 5.9war650
6. LF Sanchez 158pa, .315obp, 107wrc+, 2.1war650
7. 2B Clement 240pa, .311obp, 99wrc+, 2.7war650
8. CF Varsho 229pa, .297obp, 99wrc+, 2.8war650
9. SS Gimenez 229pa, .305obp, 91wrc+, 2.8war650

B. UT Barger 49pa, .312obp, 105wrc+, 1.3war650
B. OF Straw 60pa, .296obp, 74wrc+, 1.1war650
B. IF Schneider 19pa, .325obp, 102wrc+, 3.4war650
B. C Valenzuela 113pa, .385obp, 80wrc+, 2.3war650

X. UT Pinango 41pa, .299obp, 88wrc+, 0.0war650
X. OF Clase 63pa, .294obp, 85wrc+, 1.0war650
X. IF Urias 46pa, .323obp, 100wrc+, 2.8war650
X. C MacIver 2pa, .279obp, 73wrc+, 0.0war650

X. IF McAdoo 8pa, .288obp, 85wrc+, 0.0war650
X. IF Sosa 54pa, .274obp, 83wrc+, 0.0war650
X. UT Keys 74pa, .289obp, 82wrc+, 0.0war650


dalimon5 - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#480397) #
Those starters in the "best" lie up offer up 21.4 WAR over 650 ABs...
TamRa - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#480398) #
that Petriello' comment strikes me as significant hindisght.

Expect Springer to regress? Literally everyone in the game. Of course they did.

Expect Vlad to? Literally no one I saw looked at the post-season and the WBC and said "there's a guy who will probably get worse"

Protection? That is what Kaz is for and so far he's almost the only one that's mostly played his part (apart from being streaky)

Santander? Barger? Trade? How many significant middle of the order bats gets traded in April and May? It basically never happens.
TamRa - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#480399) #
Speaking of Kaz and streaks:

4/1-4/17 - .143/.208/.163/.371 (they went 3-10)
4/18 - 5/8 - .309/.405/.691/1.096 (10-9)
5/9 - 5/26 - .138/.203/.190/.393 (8-8)
5/27 - 6/26 - .305/.385/.642/1.027 (13-14)
6/27 - 7/19 - .167/.254/.333/.587 (7-9)

Doesn't seem to be a strong relationship between his slumps and team loses which is not the outcome I expected. The end points are arbitrary in that I just look for when the direction changed. Still, he's been a hitter of extremes so far.
92-93 - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#480401) #
Hindsight? Some of us were pounding the table in here all offseason that this lineup was a bat short unless Vladdy could be close to his playoff version.
uglyone - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#480402) #
I think the fangraphs projections in my post there still tell the same story as the start of the year - it should have been expected to be a solid above average lineup, but definitely at least a big bat short of elite.
Gerry - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#480403) #
Scherzer to start for Buffalo on Wednesday.

Jesus Sanchez will likely be in a minor league game on Thursday.
Glevin - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#480404) #
Agree with Ugly and others. Lineup certainly could have used another bat but looked good enough to compete going into the season. Yes, Springer was going to regress but he had a 166 WRc+ last year so a regression to 130 would still be very valuable. Nobody expected Vlad to be this bad. Or Kirk. Or Barger to be hurt all year.
lexomatic - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#480405) #
I think the hope after last year was thst Springer wouldnt fall back to 2024 (or even 2023) nunbers. But his season so far is pretty sinilar to 2024. If his minor hit streak continues it could look better than 2023. But by how much and will it be too late. Was that realistic? Dunno. But surely possible. Really it just exposes the lqck of depth
92-93 - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#480406) #
Speaking of bad offenses, check out the Rays lineup tonight. How are they so good? I know they will probably dink, dunk, and steal their way into a series win, but they have 3 good hitters and the rest kinda stink. Mullins got hot for a bit but has turned back into a pumpkin the last few weeks. The Jays really need to pitch around Caminero, and they should be bunting towards him frequently.
TamRa - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#480407) #
"Hindsight?"

In the context of the specific points I was replying to.

Almost every team could use another big bat, that's basically a baseball truism. But adding one works within the context of the market. What other bat that fits on their team was available (or even is available now, at the deadline) that they just simply neglected to pursue? Maybe one could argue they should have outbid the M's for Donovan? I'm not sure that the "get a big bat" argument would have been settled by that.

In any case, last winter the glaring need on offense was an IF to replace Bo.

They signed one. The only other place that looked potentially problematic was LF and if it's, say, January and Tucker is off the table (which, we see how that's going) then the question is "who can we get that will be worth benching Santander?"

Until they began to see injuries there wasn't an obvious urgency to do that. Hindsight, among other things, involves pretending that you knew that Santander was going to AGAIN miss basically the whole year.

No one knew that.
(and I'm not even a huge fan of the guy)
dalimon5 - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#480408) #
Okamoto is a mistake hitter. He's not an elite bat like Bo can be. If Vlad goes on a tear and finishes the year at over .850 wRC+ and 30HR he would still have had a terrible season. A successful team needs hitters that show up more than half or 1/3rd of the time.
Ryan Day - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#480409) #
should have expected Vlad to fall back if he didn't have enough protection or elite bat like Bo hitting around him.

This overlooks Vlad's excellent 2024, when Bo was awful and/or injured for the entire season, and none of the supporting crew of Springer, Varsho, or Justin Turner could offer much "protection." 
Also, Bo has not been an elite bat in 2026, so the Jays could have paid him a billion dollars to re-sign and still be in exactly the same spot.
TamRa - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#480410) #
Before the seson, my optimistic take went like this:

Vlad and George should be a wash. If Vlad hits something like George did in '25 (.309/.399/.560/.959) which is also very much like his '24, then George could regress to something similar to what Vlad did in '25 (.292/.381/.467/.848) then they would sort of cancel out and Springer regressing wouldn't be a hole.

Of course, neither did that.

Nigel - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#480411) #
Vladdy and Springer are the headliners but the wheels have come off literally every aspect of this team. The optimistic pre season take on this team was that it could be an elite run prevention team and average to above average offensive team. Neither of those have panned out. The Jays are currently 16th in runs scored against per game and falling.
metafour - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#480412) #
Vlad's crap season has nothing to do with a lack of "protection" around him. That point doesn't even make sense considering that Bo Bichette himself has been terrible for most of this season, so how exactly would he be "protecting" Vlad in the lineup this season?

"Protection" isn't even a provable phenomenon; its just some pseudo-science feelings-based theory that fans love to throw around, even though you can clearly see all across the league that its not predictive at all. The 2026 New York Mets are literally proof of this. They have Soto, Lindor, and Bichette all batting one after another, and yet Bichette and Lindor have been complete busts at the plate. Why aren't they protecting each other and creating it such that they're all hitting at elite levels? Better yet, aren't the Dodgers providing Kyle Tucker with a crap-ton of "protection" in their lineup? So why then has he been terrible this year?

Also: Okamoto has objectively been a better hitter than Bichette to date. So replacing Bichette with him clearly isn't why this team can't score any runs. That logic doesn't even compute. They actually upgraded on Bichette to date in the 2026 season. Yes, Bichette can easily right himself and finish on fire, but we're talking about the Jays offense from the start of the season till today (July 20th).

The Jays' struggles this year really are as simple as they appear: Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Varsho, and Barger have all been complete crap and/or injured for most of the season. That is 5 batters from the lineup, all of whom regressed significantly from last season. Springer's 2025 was obviously a final hurrah s0 it shouldn't be a surprise that he regressed heavily, but the rest of those guys apart from Varsho have really been much worse than anyone could have predicted. Kirk is literally hitting for a 65 wRC+ and spent a big chunk of time injured. Barger has been injured for most of the season. And Vlad coming off a dominant post-season stretch against elite pitching is having his worst season EVER. Varsho is in a contract year and he's putting up his worst season since 2023, which means its his second worst full season ever.

No, trading for one more bat would not magically fix this 2026 offense. There are too many complete holes and major regressions in the lineup.
Mike Green - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#480413) #
Cash has run his 4 lefties and 2 righties in a row after the 3 stars at the top of the lineup. I am sure the rationale is this.  He's not worried about the Jays pulling Cease after 4 or 5 innings.  If that happens, he has succeeded.  What he wants to do is increase the chances that the Rays score 2 or 3 runs in the first 6 innings, and the best way to do that is to have the lefties with speed batting in the 4-5 slot.  

I don't think he would do that with Miles starting (say).


Glevin - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#480414) #
Ernie should have had that ball and would have last year. Jays have bizarre error splits this year. Error ranks by position:
P:1
C: 6
1B:9
2B:4
SS:28
3B:6
OF:30th


Gerry - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#480415) #
Why is Straw playing against a RHP?
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#480416) #
The Jays have scored the 2nd fewest runs in the sport. They are not a bat away.
scottt - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#480417) #
It's a right handed pitcher who doesn't throw hard and whose best pitch is a change up.
Lefties are hitting .238 against him and righties .259.
He's given more HR from the left side but the Jays don't have  much power from the left anyway.
scottt - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#480418) #
Okamoto is a rookie who is seeing all the pitchers for the first time.
Also, the other teams are focusing on him, even if he's hitting 5th or 7th.

Eephus - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#480419) #
Just unreal. Can’t recall a team just losing their focus and edge so dramatically from one season to the next. One star review, do not recommend. Customer service was good though.
Eephus - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#480420) #
Wish I had something actually insightful to say beyond “team stinks, I shouldn’t watch them because it just pisses me off” but it is what it is. We’re all watching the same thing.

Go Phillies I guess. Sigh.
TamRa - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#480421) #
I just turned it off and found something else to pay attention too. This is like watching a movie where the dog dies.
Nigel - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#480422) #
Every aspect of the team is bad. I generally don’t ascribe the term effort to baseball as, in many cases, trying harder makes things worse but I think teams can checkout/quit. I’ve seen quit all over this team for the past 2-3 weeks.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#480423) #
The two inflection points of the season were in late May when Hoffman blew a four run lead in the 9th to lose to the O’s, right after the team had a made a long climb back to .500. Then a month later another long trip back to .500 with a chance to go over and they lose another one where they had the lead late to Houston. Just unreal.
Glevin - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#480424) #
The only positive I can take is this might force the Jays to sell some. They don't want to but with this team, what choice do they have? The whole offensive side of the ball needs a massive overhaul. Vladdy, Kirk, and Okamoto aren't going anywhere but I'd like to see basically everyone else replaced. This only doesn't look like a decent team now, it doesn't look like a team that is going to contend in next few years.
krose - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#480425) #
Agree Glevin. Should now be obvious that changes must come.
SK in NJ - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#480426) #
Agreed with metafour. Adding another bat would not have dramatically changed this team's outlook, especially since the impact bats available in free agency were Tucker and Bo, both of whom are struggling this season. Vlad and Springer have been awful, Kirk and Varsho have been hurt and awful, and Barger has been hurt. Gimenez is a 70 wRC+ player. This season was never going to materialize.

I don't know what the answer is long-term, Vlad is signed until the end of time, and the team's best near ready prospect is a 1B. They need a lot of help in the system on the offensive end. I'm a Nimmala believer, but they will need more than him, especially in the upper minors. They really need to trade for a CF. If the Jays have the audacity to start Myles Straw in 2027 then might as well root for the lockout to wipe out the season.
krose - Monday, July 20 2026 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#480427) #
One upside is that the Jays organization has the last part of the season to start preparing for next season. I’m interested to see how that looks.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#480428) #
I just think Vlad is far better when there are 2-3 bonafide hitters in the line up that the opposing pitcher has to worry about. We've heard that opposing pitchers come into the series with the clear goal of ensuring Vlad doesn't get much to hit. With Springer last year and Bichette that was harder to do because you had to navigate three solid bats 4 if you include Kirk. Okamoto is not hard for opposing pitchers to pitch to.

Glevin - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#480429) #
Everyone is better with better hitters in lineup. Better hitters=more pitches thrown, more guys on base, more relievers faced, worse relievers faced, etc.... Vlad's problems are on him not the lineup. That being said, my biggest concern here is that the Jays FO feels that a little tinkering will be enough and it certainly won't be. If you look at players with 150 PAs or more, in 2025, the Jays had 7 players with over a 115 WRC+. The highest on the Jays this year is 113. Even if Vladdy and Kirk bounce back next year and Okammoto stays pretty good, what else do they have? Clement, Lukes, Sanchez Straw, Gimenez, Santanader, Barger, Pinango, Schneider, etc...It just isn't the offense of a team that is going to contend. Jays needed another bat this year but that's with Springer and Varsho. Without them, they likely need 2-3 middle of the order sorts of bats. They also need to clear out some of the log-jams of these OK, not great players for either upgrades elsewhere or for prospects further away from majors who don't need 40-man spots.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#480430) #
If the Jays are content with Clement/Gimenez up the middle and Straw being a factor in CF next season, then they are in trouble. Even if there isn’t a salary cap once play resumes, there’s only so much money they can spend to try to patch every hole. I think what the team needs is something Atkins would never do, and that’s a more deliberate sell off. Meaning, don’t just trade the free agents. Sell high on Clement, Lukes, and Hoffman. Tyler Rogers probably has a ton of value even at his contract given how good he is. Being a $300M last place team for the 2nd time in 3 years means there’s an issue, and that issue isn’t resolved by putting more weight on a fluke season (2025) than the seasons around it.

It’s just annoying having to hear the “Jays aren’t run like the Rays and Brewers” excuses to justify lack of forward thinking. Yes, the Jays care about optics, but that’s also to their own detriment. Don’t be afraid to make good baseball decisions just because the fans, who will disappear when things are bad even when their favorite players are still on the team, might get upset.
92-93 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#480431) #
That "excuse" was being made when the Jays were clearly in a playoff hunt. At 5.5 games back of the 3rd wild card it's easy to argue that is no longer the case, and that the Jays should absolutely be sellers on Varland, Clement, Rogers, Hoffman, etc.

Things are bad right now and fans haven't disappeared, because tickets are sold way in advance. The Dome was packed last night on a Monday against the Rays, and that's not something that goes unnoticed by the bean counters.
Glevin - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#480433) #
I don't think a more significant sell-off even means long-term tanking or anything. This market, they should try to win but they need to re-set a bit and change things up. Trying to just do minor moves and hoping everything gets better isn't a strategy. They need to get impact prospects that can be above average major league starters and not just guys close to the majors. The 2024 was great because they got a lot for almost nothing but none of the guys they got is likely to be a core player. You need supplementary players too (especially affordable ones) but at some point, you also need to try to take some HR swings. You're not going to get a top-50 prospect for the guys they Jays are likely to trade but there are still a ton of guys with tremendous upside in the 75-200 range. My fear is they'll go and target these close to he majors guys with bat to ball skills who can maybe be decent major leaguers (someone like Triantos from the Cubs) instead of going for guys lower in the minors with more upside. At some point, you need to add difference makers and this is a time to try to do that. Yes, the players the Jays are likely to sell aren't fantastic but almost nobody is selling at all so it should be a seller's market.
pooks137 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#480434) #
Things are bad right now and fans haven't disappeared, because tickets are sold way in advance. The Dome was packed last night on a Monday against the Rays, and that's not something that goes unnoticed by the bean counters.

Hopefully the Rogers bean counters recall recent history as to not make the same mistakes again.

With the last Anthopoulos championship run teams, attendance, which tends to lag a year for current team performance, peaked at 3.4 million in 2016 with the 1st Atkins year and the second playoff team in a row.

Attendance remained strong in 2017 at 3.2 million for an awful Jays team with most of the same core that turned into pumpkins overnight. Quite similar to 2026. I recall at the time that ticket resale prices were slashed on the secondary market as there were lots of presold tickets that couldn't be given away.

However, attendance would plummet the next year in 2018 to 2.4 million. And further still to 1.8 million in 2019, the Vlad & Bo debut seasons. Ticket sales were nearly halved not 3 years after their last ALCS appearance.

The following attendance trends get detailed by the next 1.5 seasons of COVID. But attendance rebounds somewhat to 2.6 million in 2022, the first full season with a competitive team with the Vlad & Bo core a year after the Marcus Semien-2021 with the team being eliminated on the final day of the regular season.

TL; DR - The Toronto baseball market is fickle and only comes out for winners. The front office gets a one year hangover to right the ship before midweek shoulder season 10-15k crowds return.

dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#480435) #
Everybody's got some really good points. Glevin, that's exactly what I mean by having better hitters and how it would help Vlad a lot. Some players like Ohtani and Jose Ramirez or Aaron Judge do not need any help to perform but Vlad is a player that needs "protection," not in an old sense of having a #4 hitter behind him but in the sense that he is part of a 2-4 headed monster that other teams have to attack.

In 2025 it was Springer, Vlad, Bo, Barger and Kirk. 2023 it was Springer, Vlad, Bo and Semien. Before that Springer, Hernandez, Vlad and Bo. I do not forget that Vlad started this year off great. He wasn't hitting for power hit his at bats were great and he wasn't striking out. I believe what happened was that the team started losing and seeing that nobody else was doing anything offensively (Springer, Kirk, Barger injured and Okamoto sucking at the time), Vladdy abandoned his approach and started to try to hit for power and since then it's been a downward spiral for him with no ability to go back to his great approach at the beginning of the year.

I can't help but wonder "what if" he had 2 or more PRODUCTIVE hitters to move him over when he was hot, what if he never changed his approach? Would we have a Vlad right now with 14 HR and a .330 average and solid numbers across the board? I certainly feel like that is the case especially in his first year of a massive contract.

Where he is now is scary. He's literally guessing and selling out - and still missing.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#480436) #
Also, I love the idea of trading Varland. Similar to Yesavage proposal I had in older thread. It's only because of the return you could get to quickly retool. If Mason Miller got you that prospect last year headlined by a top 5 in baseball prospect and Varland has an extra year of control and it's a seller's market, I'd certainly listen on Varland and Rogers.

Jays most valuable trade chips from starting roster according to Joe Blow:

Varland
Rogers
Gausman
Hoffman
Clement
Bieber



Gimenez







Ocean level






Varsho



Mike Green - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#480437) #
Presumably Okamoto would be a valuable trading chip if one was so inclined to sell broadly.  I wouldn't be, but I am surely in the minority here. Notwithstanding the team's poor performance so far this year, I don't see it as indicative of their prospects for 2027 and 2028.  And I'm not as sure as everyone else about 2026.  I do not believe that this is a lesser club than the Red Sox who have just won 14 in a row.  I would wait longer.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#480438) #
one of the things the jays did last year that really helped them was to make quick firm decisions on underperforming players - even when the replacements were iffy question marks themselves. it's been harder this year because there's been even more nonperformers, but there's still decisions they could make it they realized the urgency of the situation.

Like making the decision to pretty much sit Gimenez and Straw for the time being. That comes with defensive tradeoffs, but the offensive needs are too big right now to play around anymore. Clement's defense hasn't been great at 2B this year, but he was actually better at SS defensively last year and it's likely that his arm strength plays a factor there.

A guy like Urias actually has interesting hitting data besides just the current small sample, and actually projects like an average hitter at the moment (with solid 2B defense). Schneider has been super frustrating but even with this year his recent hitting sample (250pa of 102wrc+ over the past calendar year) and his projections are both league average.

And keep giving chances to whatever kids are hot - Valenzuela Pinango Clase Keys McAdoo have combined for 436pa of 96wrc+ this year, basically league average, which is valuable contributions.

Still have no choice but to keep playing Vladdy Springer Kirk Varsho tho. Some good news is that Springer has actually been solid at the plate for a while now - 116wrc+ over 190pa since May 18, over 2 months.

But it would help if they cut bait on the guys who haven't hit this year AND don't project to hit much.
92-93 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#480439) #
Switching from Gimenez to Urias is fiddling at the margins. Unless Vladdy wakes up, it's all for naught. He's really the only hope for a turnaround in their fortunes.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#480440) #
A massive roster selloff just isn't going to happen given the marketing issues. I also don't think that it makes sense from a baseball perspective. The Jays have very very little in the high minors to replace anything that is sold so a selloff means a rebuild of some sort and I don't think this team is nearly as bad as it has played this year (nor nearly as good as it played last year). I would definitely move off Varsho unless he was willing to play on a one or two year deal (highly unlikely) and the UFA pitchers. The two other players I would think hard about moving are Varland (for the reasons dalimon5 mentioned - ie market demand my return a genuine haul) and Okamoto. Okamoto is harder because he offers some much needed power. My bigger issue is that I think the infield defence has suffered significantly with his introduction into the lineup. I'd like to see the team defence with Clement back at 3B and Gimenez at 2B and Okamoto as the DH. Okamoto also looks to have some holes in his swing that I would worry about MLB pitchers exploiting more and more.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#480441) #
Margins matter too tho.

92-93 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#480442) #
For sure, and the Jays have no business starting Straw in the OF while their offence is AWOL.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#480443) #
and making hard decisions at the bottom of the roster makes a difference mentally for the team, too, imo.

i think it was a big help last year to get the team going.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#480444) #
If Vlad needs 2-3 "great" hitters in the lineup to play well, he's a supporting piece and shouldn't be making more than $20-25M/year at best and the entire contract was (will be) a disaster bigger than Vernon Wells - we got lucky on that one - I doubt anyone would take Vlad for "cash considerations" at this point. I *WISH* Vlad was having Okamoto's "bad" season.. and making only $15M/year. He's almost unplayable at this point.

Apparently, Santander dropped in the draft due to shoulder surgery, it held up for a few years, and we signed him just as it started breaking again (or it got re-aggravated). My gut says anyone missing 2 seasons in a row (other than pitcher for Tommy John due to recovery time) is probably done. Especially if there's no corrective surgery available or avoided. I felt the same about Berrios "rehabbing to avoid surgery" - that rarely works, IMHO. Feels like he was just stalling - maybe to avoid having to pitch for us again due to bad feelings about the WS, etc? Then again, Bieber (so far) has proved me wrong - I expected he'd also not really make it back to pitch, but at least the last start was good. Hopefully we can trade him for a good piece.

Yes, good teams can get "snakebit" in terms of W-L - but when the underlying stats (RF / RA) are this clear, this isn't a case of "we lost a couple of close games" - we're constantly being outhit, outpitched, etc. This team needs some major work.

As far as crowds - I think a lot of the early season attendance was due to 2 factors: obviously last season, and the Leafs sucking almost all of last year - people pivoted early, even while the Leafs were still playing. With the Leafs having some excitement again due to McKenna and wholesale changes to coaching, and many new players, Jays are going to need a miracle run to sustain anything. Of course, if the Leafs go nowhere again, that'll help again next year (if no lockout!). If there's a lockout, attendance will crater for years, unless we come back as worldbeaters.
mendocino - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#480445) #
Blue Bird Territory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcfkXFFPNkE

could be Gausman last home game

Bieber could get QO

Varland franchise altering return, trade Ernie? Kirk? hignest value now
mendocino - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#480446) #
ESPN July 21 update! Ranking top 2026 MLB trade deadline candidates

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/49082474/ranking-mlb-trade-deadline-candidates-top-100-skubal-chapman-peralta-arraez

3. Joe Ryan, RHP, Minnesota Twins
Chance of being traded: 35%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: One more year after 2026

Best fits: Cubs, Padres, A's, Diamondbacks, Braves, White Sox, Nationals, BLUE JAYS, Cardinals.

6. Zach Neto, SS, Los Angeles Angels
Chance of being traded: 30%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Three more years after 2026

Best fits: Boston, Atlanta, BLUE JAYS, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, New York Yankees

7. Jeremy Peña, SS, Houston Astros
Chance of being traded: 35%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: One more year after 2026

Best fits: Braves, Rays, Yankees, BLUE JAYS, Red Sox.

9. CJ Abrams, SS, Washington Nationals
Chance of being traded: 25%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Two more years after 2026

Best fits: Braves, Rays, Yankees, BLUE JAYS.

10. Luis Arraez, 2B, San Francisco Giants
Chance of being traded: 95%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Just the rest of 2026

Best fits: Rays, Nationals, Dodgers, Yankees, BLUE JAYS, Diamondbacks, Guardians, Pirates.

11. Reid Detmers, LHP, Los Angeles Angels
Chance of being traded: 30%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Two more years after 2026

Best fits: Cubs, Padres, A's, Mets, Cardinals, Orioles, Diamondbacks, Braves, White Sox, Rays, Nationals, BLUE JAYS.

12. Francisco Lindor, SS, New York Mets
Chance of being traded: 15%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Five more years after 2026, at $32 million a year

Best fits: BLUE JAYS, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves

16. Casey Mize, RHP, Detroit Tigers
Chance of being traded: 60%
Rest-of-season impact: High if it continues to click
Years of control: Just the rest of 2026

Best fits: Braves, Padres, Cubs, Brewers, White Sox, A's, Cardinals, Rays, Diamondbacks, BLUE JAYS.

19. Kevin Gausman, RHP, Toronto Blue Jays
Chance of being traded: 35%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Just the rest of 2026

Best fits: White Sox, Braves, Twins, Rays, Cubs, Brewers, Orioles

21. Josh Hader, LHP, Houston Astros
Chance of being traded: 30%
Rest-of-season impact: High
Years of control: Two more years after 2026, at $19 million per year

Best fits: Yankees, Cubs, BLUE JAYS, Mariners, Dodgers, White Sox, Diamondbacks.

25. Jose Soriano, RHP, Los Angeles Angels
Chance of being traded: 30%
Rest-of-season impact: Moderate
Years of control: Two more years after 2026

Best fits: Cubs, Padres, A's, Mets, Cardinals, Orioles, Diamondbacks, Braves, White Sox, Rays, Nationals, BLUE JAYS.

35. Jake McCarthy, OF, Colorado Rockies
40. Daulton Varsho, OF, Toronto Blue Jays
TamRa - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#480447) #
No disrespect to Hader but I can't put much stock in an article that thinks what the Jays really need right now is a premium closer.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#480448) #
"A massive roster selloff just isn't going to happen given the marketing issues."

That doesn't make sense Nigel unless you think that the FO and ownership only care about 12-16 months worth of profits and not the rest of the future. Surely they know that the attendance will crash in 2027 and beyond if they don't turn it around or re-invest.

I still think the Blue Jays can make the playoffs and make a strong bid for the championship but only if they are able to add at least two bats. Zack Neto and Arraez would be two examples that could work to strengthen this line up and I would feel a lot stronger that other players would improve around them. Lindor and Arraez would be even better.

To make something like that work you're likely looking at an overpay OR Atkins can go into Ninja mode and channel his inner AA:

Lindor and Brooks Raley for Gimenez, Nimmala and Johnny King.

Arraez for Schneider and Jake Bloss

New look Line up:

Arraez 2B
Lukes RF
Guerrero Jr 1B
Lindor SS
Kirk C
Okamoto 3B
Springer LF
Varsho CF

Bench of Clement, Valenzuela, Straw and X.

* I'm firmly in the "keep going and add" camp but only if they get at least 2 better bats that get on base.
pooks137 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#480449) #
19. Kevin Gausman, RHP, Toronto Blue Jays

...

Best fits: White Sox, Braves, Twins , Rays, Cubs, Brewers, Orioles

Oh the irony after all the flak that Minnesota received not a year ago for having a complete firesale (including sending a pre-arb Louis Varland middle reliever to the Jays) that their front office is now potentially poised to pick the carcass of the 2025 World Series runner-up for spare parts.

hypobole - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#480450) #
On the subject of re-investing, one can only guess how much or how little Jays ownership can spend this offseason.

Will MLB owners dig their heels in on a salary cap? Will it be an NHL style hard cap? Or will it be a softer cap (which it somewhat is already with the aprons).

A hard cap would probably be devastating to the Jays for the foreseeable future.

TamRa - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#480451) #
One year ago today, vs now:
Kirk
.309 .366 .416 .782 (298 ab)
.204 .288 .306 .594 (90 ab)
Vlad
.287 .389 .433 .821
.259 .342 .353 .696
Clement
.279 .318 .376 .694
.298 .322 .429 .751
Gimenez
.218 .300 .322 .622
.228 .272 .356 .628
Barger
.271 .324 .519 .843
.045 .214 .091 .305 (22 ab)
Varsho
.207 .240 .543 .783
.239 .304 .382 .687
Springer
.276 .368 .498 .866
.224 .308 .384 .692
Lukes
.269 .360 .383 .744
.290 .342 .400 .742
Schneider
.213 .357 .425 .782 (80 ab)
.153 .282 .296 .578 (49 ab)

Dunno how you plan for 5 key bats completely disappearing.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#480452) #
I guess I can see that Hader wouldn't be a great fit - but imagine we had Hader instead of Hoffman this year - would we have 3-4 more wins? (when thinking of Hoffman, first name that popped into my head was Hamilton - as in Joey. They've been linked in my head for a while as "we tried something and it didn't work".)

As much as I like Gimenez as a person (from what I know / see, obviously), it's telling when basically every available SS is marked as "good fit: Blue Jays".

My guess is next year, assuming mostly healthy, Barger at 3B, Okamota at DH, sign 1-3 OF, unless you can find a good 3B (do we have any in the minors? McAdoo?).

I wouldn't be opposed to Lukes in CF as a stop-gap measure for 1-2 years. Or maybe Varsho's shoulder will still improve? Right now, his arm looks like a noodle out there, and he seems to have to go max effort just to throw it back to 2nd. But some injuries take multiple years to get back to prior abilities.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#480453) #
"A massive roster selloff just isn't going to happen given the marketing issues."


Agreed. They gave Vlad $500M mainly for that reason. They'll only trade the impending free agents (and maybe Jeff Hoffman) for that reason. We can't look at the Jays from a pure "baseball logic" standpoint. It's a business to them and they care massively about short-term fan optics. Hopefully I'm wrong and we see some bolder, forward thinking decisions this deadline. I don't want the Jays to operate like the Giants. The Jays can have a reasonably big selloff (Clement, Hoffman, Rogers) and still try to be competitive in 2027. It's not one or the other. The only player who would hurt their 2027 chances is Varland, but ultimately with the volatility of relievers, you'd have to consider that depending on the offer. I would guess non-AJ Preller GM's are not going to hand over top 5 prospects in the sport for a reliever, even an elite controllable one.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#480454) #
I would play Valenzuela more than Kirk right now to give him playing / development time, and let Kirk fully heal / get his stroke back. There's very little "must win" urgency right now, IMHO.
85bluejay - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#480457) #
Back in the winter of 2022 I wanted the Jays to move Kirk because he was coming off a 4 war season and likely to bring more in return and I was skeptical that Kirk's body type would age well. In addition, I was high on Moreno. Since the trade, Moreno in 364 games has produced 11.6 WAR (baseball reference),While Kirk in 386 games has produced 6 WAR in addition to being more expensive and going forward I expect Moreno to hold up better than Kirk and be more productive. It's the same reason I wanted the Jays to trade Vladdy, I just think he will age poorly.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#480458) #
Am I the only one that sees the possibility that one of the richest owners and biggest markets in the sports may actually act like the Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies and Mets? Not only does it make sense but they've kind of been doing this for a few years now...

This notion that they are afraid to retool or reboot because they might lost profits for the next little bit is silly. Obviously they are benefitting from the World Series post attendance and obviously they have people smart enough to understand that they will make more money over a 3 year period if they sell/retool now and field a better team the next 3 years.

Nowhere does it make sense for this market and ownership group to strip things down "for the better of the baseball team" and put profits 2nd. This idea completely ignores the far more practical and realistic option of spending a ton of money to contend year after year.
Rich - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#480459) #
I still think the Blue Jays can make the playoffs and make a strong bid for the championship but only if they are able to add at least two bats.
I think this is extremely wishful thinking - this team is terrible and has scored the 3rd fewest runs in baseball.  They're far more than 2 good hitters away.  The defence, base-running, and bullpen are also poor on the whole and the starters have been collectively average.  Could the top 4 hitters turn it around?  It's possible but we're 100 games in so the terrible collective performance of the big boys can't just be written off as a slump they should come out of.  Kirk and Springer looked like this for all of 2024 and Vlad is absolutely lost.  No way should the Jays give up useful young players to save this trainwreck of a season.
pooks137 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#480460) #
Back in the winter of 2022 I wanted the Jays to move Kirk because he was coming off a 4 war season and likely to bring more in return and I was skeptical that Kirk's body type would age well. In addition, I was high on Moreno. Since the trade, Moreno in 364 games has produced 11.6 WAR (baseball reference),While Kirk in 386 games has produced 6 WAR in addition to being more expensive

Surprised BBRef only has Kirk worth 6 WAR over the last 3.5 seasons.

Fangraphs has Moreno & Kirk at essentially a dead heat around roughly 10 WAR over the same period. I would imagine that the difference is that fWAR includes framing runs, which Kirk was previously elite.

With the new ABS system, framing runs have been somewhat devalued. But framing skills do still have value in an ABS system, as teams become very hesitant to challenge any egregious calls once they are down to a single challenge.

uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#480461) #

Moreno 1332pa, 113wrc+, 10.1fwar, 4.9fwar650
Kirk 1425pa, 100wrc+, 10.1fwar, 4.6fwar650
Varsho 1687pa, 96wrc+, 8.3fwar, 3.2fwar650
Gurriel 1880pa, 97wrc+, 3.9fwar, 1.3fwar650
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#480463) #
The guest at the end of Blue Jays talk today said the Jays leader in BA since June 1 is Clement at .278. 8 players are hitting below .200.

This team needs to make serious changes. They’re back to where they were in 23 and 24 on offense (maybe even worse).
hypobole - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#480464) #
Surprised BBRef only has Kirk worth 6 WAR over the last 3.5 seasons.

BBRef doesn't count framing.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#480465) #
welp. so much for this game.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#480466) #
I was hoping that a rest over the ASB and a couple of good starts would boost Gausman’s value a bit. Guess not. He’s been bad, on the whole, this year. Time gets us all.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#480467) #
Such poor ABs by Varsho and Okamoto there.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#480468) #
this game is hilarious tbh.
scottt - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#480469) #
They will have to replace Varsho, Springer, Gausman and Bieber.
Most of that should come through free agency but they will have to wait on the CBA.

Most rebuilds are done through tanking and early draft picks.
The Jays are not going to do that, although, if the last 2 months are like the rest of the year, they could have an early pick next year.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#480470) #
love that both gimenez and straw are in the lineup right after my post today.
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#480471) #
I've never seen a Jays team this bad with the bases loaded. They just have no chance.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#480472) #
There are lineups that can carry a Gimenez/Manny Lee type bat. Several teams of the Jays between 1984 and 1994 proved that - the 2026 Jays are not that lineup.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#480473) #
Gausman better have been traded to be pulled at 80 something pitches with Mullins at the plate and RHH Deluca on deck.

Fluharty for sure is going to get injured...does he lead baseball in appearances and IP for a reliever?
mendocino - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#480474) #
just to be fair Straw played yesterday because what pitches Martinez throws (mentioned in the thread), tonight he's in because Clase has sore foot
electric carrot - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#480475) #
this team stinks
Glevin - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#480476) #
There's an 80's song called "Goodie Two Shoes" by Adam Ant which has the lyrics "You don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?" and for some reason that reminds me of the Jays right now except more "Don't hit, don't pitch (don't field), what do you do?"
hypobole - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#480478) #
what do you do?

Bask in the glory of still being AL champions.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#480479) #
At the game again tonight. You can feel the animosity.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#480480) #
Gausman was struggling all night. He gave up at least 2 hits in every inning. I have no issue with the pull. I agree that Fluharty and Fisher have been abused but they have generally shied away from a multi inning reliever this season so the mid leverage guys get abused.

This is 2024 all over again. The team checked out a few weeks ago. It’s time to focus on 2027 and the minors.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#480481) #
I owe Manny Lee an apology. In comparing Lee and Gimenez I didn’t realize that Lee outhit Gimenez in their respective careers as Jays (to date for Gimenez). A statement I never thought I’d type.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#480482) #
Worst hitters in jays history, minimum 500pa:

1. D.Ainge 721pa, 43wrc+
2. L.Gomez 640pa, 47wrc+
3. D.McKay 999pa, 50wrc+
4. T.Perez 583pa, 57wrc+
5. B.Drury 525pa, 57wrc+
6. D.Cedeno 645pa, 59wrc+
7. J.MacDonald 1453pa, 60wrc+
8. A.Griffin 3655pa, 62wrc+
9. R.Goins 1397pa, 64wrc+
10. R.Cerrone 931pa, 64wrc+

11. A.Gimenez 694pa, 71wrc+
11. G.Iorg 2615pa, 71wrc+
11. D.Schofield 501pa, 71wrc+
11. R.Bosetti 1522pa, 71wrc+


Thing is i'm pretty sure that Gimenez is the only one there that's been used as an everyday starter for that entire sample.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#480483) #
not sure it's entirely a coincidence that the jays' offense starting taking off last year as soon as Gimenez was injured.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#480484) #
Griffin is the only one on that list who was a lengthy starter.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#480485) #
Season ticket holder renewal is this Friday. I expect the sales and marketing to see a steep decline in renewals.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:12 PM EDT (#480487) #
Still hustling!
Glevin - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#480488) #
Gimenez is third on the team in FWAR. Dreadful hitter but not one of the top-10 reasons Jays are where they are.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#480490) #
that's a lot of faith placed in a defensive metric that has him better defensively at SS this year than he's ever been at 2B.

(soemthing which DRS vehemently disagrees with, for the record).
June Northey - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#480491) #
Ugh. This was a must win series and they crapped all over the astroturf. 7-1 loss, 8-2 losing tonight. 5 1/2 out of the 3rd WC slot, 5 1/2 out of 3rd worst in the majors (KC), 8th from the bottom in the majors, 2 1/2 behind the Twins for 11th worst. Yeah, this year is toast.

So now it is time for Atkins to pull off a 2024 - get some key pieces for the future via FA to be this year and others who aren't part of the long term plans. If he can get something good for Gausman-Hoffman-Springer-etc. As I posted earlier - FA's to be next few years...
  • post 26: Springer, Gausman, Bieber, Varsho, Garcia, Scherzer, Corbin, Straw (team options for '27 and '28)
  • Post 27: Sanchez, Hoffman
  • Post 28: Berrios, Rogers (option), Ponce, Yariel Rodriguez
If there is any demand for Springer-Gausman-Bieber-Varsho-Garcia-Scherzer-Corbin you gotta take it. I suspect Bieber with his recent work might be the most valuable. Sanchez & Hoffman I'd be listing closely to deals on too as '27 could be toast. No one from post '28 outside of Rogers would have any value on the market outside of helping balance a bad deal coming here (Lindor the only really bad deal I could see the Jays taking - Lindor for Gimenez/Berrios/Yariel would be (not counting '26) Lindor $170.5, G/B/Y $136.7 = $33.8 million added to the Jays payroll over the lifetime of those deals, the Mets get rid of someone who is conflicting with Soto it seems, and gives the fans a sacrifice. I'd go for it if Lindor isn't hurt, if he is or if the Jays advance scouts feel he isn't going to get back to his old 120 OPS+ level or close then nah.

Bieber, Gausman, and Hoffman have value. Varsho due to the lack of OF'ers available. Corbin might get you a minor lottery ticket (ala Schreck). I'd be surprised if anyone took Garcia or Scherzer even for nothing. If Sanchez comes back he might do OK.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#480492) #
You will find no bigger believer in the value of player defensive value than me. However, I do not believe Gimenez has been worth nearly that much WAR this season. To believe some of those numbers you have to believe he is Smitb reincarnate, which I do not. I agree that, in one sense, Gimenez is nowhere near the top of the list in the problems of the 2026 Jays. However, on a problem/payroll cost curve he moves up the list pretty quickly.
mendocino - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#480493) #
Straw should be gone, keep hearing he's perfect 4th/5th OF for playoff run
TamRa - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#480494) #
When it got to 3-0 I decided I wasn't doing this to myself again.

I've made my piece with it. The real torture is when you're lingering there 2 games or so up or down on the fringe of the playoffs. A win streak is of course great, but a collapse, emotionally, is almost like it. You can stop stressing and just accept that it's not happening and then noting else really matters (as far as w/l or runs scored)
June Northey - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#480495) #
Oh, I can see that, but with the 2 option years and Varsho likely gone I could see the Jays holding him so they have someone who can play good CF defense in '27.
June Northey - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#480498) #
Agreed TamRa - I was hoping for a sweep in this TB series one way or the other - Jays sweep, they are contenders, get swept and the year is over. Looks like 'over' wins. Sigh.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#480499) #
if i know this FO, Varsho is now a prime buy low candidate.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#480500) #
Gimenez is a buy lower candidate.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#480501) #
Wouldn't shock me if the Jays kept Varsho and qualified him (he'd accept it in a second), but the CBA/labor dispute is a big question mark there as we don't know if the QO will even exist. It depends on what types of offers the Jays are getting for him. I can't imagine they will be any good given how he's looked this season.
Glevin - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#480502) #
I never really liked the Gimenez trade and would be happy if they could get from under his contract but he is kind of who he is right now and that's someone who can't really hit but plays excellent D at SS. Not a top-10 issue. (Gimenez making $15M this year which is in range of OK. Next year, it gets really bad at $23.5)
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#480503) #
"Gimenez is a buy lower candidate."

A big league GM thinking Gimenez coming off his 2023-24 seasons was a $100M player still baffles me to this day.
TamRa - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#480504) #
"although, if the last 2 months are like the rest of the year, they could have an early pick next year."

That would involve finishing with a lottery pick,or shedding about $35 million in payroll in the next two weeks. Absent those the top pick gets backed up 10 spots again which would be no higher than #17 (and that's if they don't sign a QO free agent)

If I understand correctly when you make a midseason deal you only shave off the prorated portion of the contract heading out the door - that is just slightly less than 1/3 of this year's salary.

If they trade every healthy free agent, plus Sanchez, and don't kick in any money at all they would save a bit over $27 million. Add Hoffman and you get almost to $31.5m

So you need some one or more making at least 11 - PLUS a little to compensate for the pro-rated salaries of the seven new players. Ruling out Santander and Berrios, that basically means getting someone to take Gimenez (you would surely have to kick some money in in the out years but you might get away with not doing so this year in the fantastical world where anyone wants him at this price at all)

So TL,DR: either make the lottery or it's #17 or below.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#480505) #
Sorry glevin but pencilling one of the worst hitters in baseball as an everyday starter is always a problem.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#480506) #
Getting under a tax threshold makes a lot of sense given where the team is, but it does seem like it would require more trading than the FO probably wants to do. Springer, Varsho, Gausman, Bieber, Straw, Sanchez, Hoffman, and Rogers are all logical trade pieces to me. I’d add Clement in there as well but the Jays aren’t doing that, and no one is touching Gimenez’s contract. Santander, Berrios, and Rodriguez are unmovable. Kirk makes sense as a trade candidate down the road (if you believe Valenzuela is a starter long-term) but not right now. Someone mentioned trading Okamoto, which won’t happen, but if they are going to keep Clement, then ending the season with Clement at 3B and Schneider finally getting an everyday look at 2B wouldn’t be the worst option. Much like with Rogers, I’m not sure Okamoto on a team that isn’t good makes much sense given his age.

Either way, I expect the Jays to absorb whatever tax penalties that come this year. They won’t sell enough to get under a threshold.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 21 2026 @ 11:27 PM EDT (#480507) #
On the off chance someone is interested in something positive. Back in January Brendan Gawlowski posted the Top 40 Jays list at FG. He ranked Brandon Valenzuela 28th as a 40FV. He now disagrees with that assessment and explains why.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/wait-what-brandon-valenzuelas-breakout/
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:40 AM EDT (#480508) #
I’m a believer in Valenzuela. Between the plate discipline and the power there’s a pretty straightforward path to being a really solid major leaguer.
Michael - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:23 AM EDT (#480509) #
"Straw should be gone, keep hearing he's perfect 4th/5th OF for playoff run"

If you mean he should be gone because he has trade value, I guess, but the issue is he's also got good future contract value for the next 2 years in one year $8M options which is a good price for a good defense 4th/5th OF that can cover CF for your team (and apparently close blow out games too).

The team playing the weaker offense for good defense would be more tolerable if they actually were getting good defense. Gimenez let a ball between his legs yesterday, Clement dropped the very catchable running pop-up today, and Varsho misplayed the hit on the short hop to give the extra base. Messy defense like that is ok if the guys doing it are big bats. Weaker bats are ok if the guy doing it are lights out on defense. This year none of the Jays are really giving outstanding defense (except maybe the C and even there Valenzuela threw the ball into CF tonight).

Statcast Fielding Run Value has Gimenez as top non-C on the Jays and the 2nd best defensive performance by a Jay non-C goes to Vlad (4 runs AA).
June Northey - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#480510) #
I'm wondering if some guys are starting to screw up defensively due to the games being a slog. They are pros, but even pros have to get frustrated - sometimes try too hard, sometimes let basics slip. Last year when every play meant so much they were more focused, thus more likely to do everything right. They knew if they didn't do well someone would pick them up, which let them focus more on doing things right. I figure that was a big part of what killed Vlad most of this year - the need to do more than he could. Now it might be hitting Gimenez and Clement and others. Some of these issues have been around since day one of the season, could be leftover from the oh so close World Series.

Bottom line - the team needs to pull the plug or the players need to start winning NOW. If the next 2 games are like the last 2 the season is as dead as it gets. If they pull off 2 wins they have a tiny bit of life left. Atkins wants them to give him an excuse to add I'm sure or at least not to sell. But the players are screaming 'trade us' with their play. Not on purpose of course, but damn is it hard to watch.
mendocino - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#480511) #
"Quicksand" - Shane Falco
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#480512) #
I wouldn't trade guys just to trade them unless it clears out room so someone like Straw, I don't know what you'd reasonably get for him? Like an A-ball reliever? Would rather just keep him around. The only place Jays need to really clear out room is LH corner OF so really hope they move at least one guy from there. (Barger, Lukes, Sanchez, Pinango, Schreck, even Hedbert Perez).

Mitch Bannon has some trade ideas and I think they are mostly roughly accurate and I also hate them because it's Jays trading for AAA, major league guys instead of higher upside guys lower in the system.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#480513) #
What were the trade proposals?
Chuck - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#480515) #
I wonder if Straw will be kept with the idea that a Lukes/Straw CF platoon next year buys them time before having to properly address the position. I would think the outfield-deficient Phillies would covet Varsho, even given his unspectacular numbers. Likely wouldn't land much in a trade, but if the organization has decided to move on from him, it might as well be now.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#480516) #
the other benefit of moving a replacement level guy like Straw is that it gives us room to look at some of the many OF that are doing well in AAA and AA this year - Schreck Pinango Clase Harry Munguia Bohrofen Perez Micheletti Burgos Cunningham.
metafour - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#480518) #
Either way, I expect the Jays to absorb whatever tax penalties that come this year. They won’t sell enough to get under a threshold.
Absorbing the tax penalties is no problem when your team is competing for the World Series, but finishing last place in your division and potentially dropping 10 spots in the draft is a BIG penalty, especially given that they got raked over the coals this year with penalties a well. The difference in bonus pool value between the 7th pick and the 17th pick was nearly $2.5M this year. That's basically one Will Brick alone (on top of the fact that obviously when you pick 7th overall you generally have access to much better prospects than when you pick 17th overall). They are in a pretty bad spot, and they really should be trying to get under the threshold if its possible, or praying that they suck enough that they make the lottery.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#480519) #
The Phillies are an excellent fit for Varsho, great call Chuck. And Dombrowski is exactly the kind of guy you want to deal with, though granted he's the President.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#480520) #
The problem with trading Straw is that the Jays don't have a real CF anywhere near the majors. Lukes, Clase, Harry, and Schreck can play there but none are real CFers. If you also trade Varsho, not a bad idea to have someone who can play CF especially as you're not going to get anything got Straw anyway.
Katie - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#480521) #
The impact of the tax penalty on the draft after such a miserable season is a potentially huge factor.

I just picked a couple of years ago to see what it'd look like and in 2024 Caglione, Wetherholt and Konnor Griffin all went in the 6-9 range and, comparatively, 16-19 has Carson Benge and Theo Gillen (top 100 prospect). Of course, Yesavage did go at 20.

That may not be the most representative example, but it's a pretty significant drop.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#480522) #
Agreed metafour. I hope they are more deliberate sellers. Getting hit with those stiff penalties for a last place team that looks this bad on the field would be an awful decision. I'm just not sure if the FO is willing to trade enough controllable pieces to get it done. I hope they are.

Having a controllable reliever with an ERA in the 1.00's and a strong track record like Rogers to me is a no brainer trade at the deadline. Will the Jays agree if they want to contend in 2027 and want to keep Rogers for next season? I guess we will see, but I doubt they make a move like that, and they will need to in order to get comfortably under the threshold by the end of the season.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#480523) #
If you are in a complete tear down and rebuild then you sell Straw for whatever you can get because: a) next year doesn't matter; b) he won't be part of the next good Jays team; and c) you sell anything not nailed down for whatever assets you can get regardless of how minimal. If you recognize that this year is lost but plan to try and contend next year then there is zero point to selling Straw because: a) the return will be negligible; b) the team has zero CF's close to the majors in the minors (if they do the entirely possible and move on from Varsho); and c) the team is already short of RH OF's generally. I think the team will (and should) try and contend next year but how they proceed with Straw is actually a pretty decent litmus test of where the FO is at. In my view, Chuck's platoon CF suggestion is an entirely sensible plan for CF for 2027.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#480524) #
we like small sample defense for Gimenez, but small samples also say Lukes has been better in CF than Straw this year. And if you're saying we should run out the year trotting out Straw in CF every day the rest of the way then i'll definitely disagree.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#480525) #
Unless another team clones Ross Atkins and makes him their general manager, I don't think any other team in the big leagues is going to pick up Straw's 2027 option. He'll probably be a free agent after this season anyway. If you can trade him without eating up any money, then it's a common sense move, IMO. The Guardians are paying some of the 2026 money as well as the buyout (I think). Let Lukes, Clase, whoever cover CF for the rest of the season. If the Jays hold on to Straw because they want to pick up his $8M option next season, then it's a reflection of the FO more than anything else.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#480526) #
Jays have the 7th worst record, but SF picks 10th, so Jays have 6th best draft position. That gives almost exactly 50% odds of picking top 6. The team with 7th best draft position only has 38% chance at top 6. The 5th best has 62%.

The tiny silver lining of losing.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#480527) #
Springer is now at a 119wrc+ over the last 2+ months / ~200pa, and should be expected to continue at that level. And he has a history of great playoffs performance. He should be a fairly valuable rental bat tbh.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#480528) #
"we like small sample defense for Gimenez, but small samples also say Lukes has been better in CF than Straw this year. And if you're saying we should run out the year trotting out Straw in CF every day the rest of the way then i'll definitely disagree."

Come on. The idea that Gimenez is some unknown defender is laughable. Since 2022 when he became an everyday player, he is 4th in OAA in all of baseball. He won 3 straight Gold Gloves (and a Platinum Glove) at 2B and should have won last year as well. He has been worth 13 more OAA than the next best 2Bman. Yes, he has a relatively small sample size at SS but he's been one of the best defensive players in baseball for years. His defensive numbers this year are very much in line with his career. Lukes has played 59 innings in CF this year which is not remotely statistically significant and in his career of 305 innings is worth -3 OAA. Gimenez has played 193 games in the majors at SS with 19 OAA. I don't trust defensive numbers as an exact science by any means but Gimenez has been an excellent defender at SS over a significant number if games.

No, the Jays shouldn't be trotting out Straw everyday in CF. They shouldn't be trotting out Lukes every day either. He's 32. Lost seasons are largely for giving guys you want to have a look at a chance so you can see what you have for next year so Clase, Schreck, Harry, whoever is looking decent and healthy should get plenty of time with Lukes (if he isn't traded) getting some and Straw (if he isn't traded) getting most of the vs LHP and having Straw to backup and pinch run still makes sense.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#480529) #
Jeff Passan yesterday mentioned that he doesn't think Rogers has high value because he has an expensive contract.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#480530) #
Lukes

2026: 235pa, 109wrc+, 3.0war650
2yrs: 673pa, 105wrc+, 2.8war650
3yrs: 764pa, 109wrc+, 3.0war650
Proj: 174pa, 107wrc+, 2.6war650

why wouldn't we keep playing Lukes?
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#480531) #
Hoffman I can see traded because he has one year and Jays fans hate him but Rogers doesn't make any sense. Jays will be trying to compete next year and they have so many areas of need, adding bullpen to that just doesn't help.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#480532) #
Don't understand keeping Straw. If we don't have an inhouse replacement by the offseason, sign a good FA or a cheap FA. Mullins 1 yr deal cost the Rays $7.5 million. 0 WAR Straw isn't going to get $8 million.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#480533) #
Just noticed that for the first time, Gimenez' projection on the combined depth charts has fallen below the magical 90wrc+ barrier, down to 89wrc+, which for me is the minimum reasonable level for a "good glove" fulltime starter.

of course, 89wrc+ is probably still very generous, given he's at 71wrc+ the last 2yrs and 77wrc+ the last 3.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#480538) #
Max Scherzer Buffalo 4 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 6 K
hypobole - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#480540) #
Scherzer up to 5 perfect IP, other than a Kasevich error. 56 pitches, 40 strikes. Thumb panic might have been overblown.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#480541) #
Ugly your hate for Gimenez is out of proportion compared to other anchors on this team, starting with VG Jr.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#480544) #
Lauer starts today for Los Angeles.  He's given up 14 runs in 40 innings, and has gone 6 innings most of the time for the Dodgers.  His xERA is more than 2 runs lower in LA than it was here.  You can credit the Dodger management if you like, but personally, I'd attribute it to a better frame of mind.  Yogi lives in our hearts!
99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#480545) #
Agreed, dalimon. I’d rather pay $15m for 0.3bwar than $40M for 0.8.

On the plus side, I saw what could be an interesting trend for Vlad:
6.5 WAR in 2021
4.0 in 2022
1.8 in 2023
6.0 in 2024
4.6 in 2025
O.8 so far in 2026

I am looking forward to another 6 WAR season by him in 2027.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#480546) #
Worst qualified hitters in MLB, Last 3 years:

1. UT CIN K.Hayes (29): 1108pa, 56wrc+
2. C SFG P.Bailey (27): 1107pa, 71wrc+
3. C ATH J.Heim (31): 1123pa, 74wrc+
4. SS COL E.Tovar (24): 1440pa, 76wrc+
5. SS TOR A.Gimenez (27): 1327pa, 77wrc+

The only other teams employing hitters like this regularly are teams that always expected to be at the bottom of the standings this year.

I don't think it's out of line tbh.
metafour - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#480547) #
Lauer still kind of sucks and will be replaced in due time by the Dodgers. He has a comically unsustainable .213 BABIP in his 40 innings with the Dodgers, on top of a near 90% LOB% (he has never prevented base-runners from scoring at anywhere near that rate in his career). His FIP and xFIP are both still in the ~mid 5's. He has been pitching better than what he did in his 8 games for the Jays, but this LA success is a flash in the pan.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#480549) #
In my view, the xERA is a better indicator of how he has pitched than FIP or xFIP. He's a fly-ball pitcher, and xFIP just assumes that a certain percentage of his flyballs will leave the yard.  xERA takes into account quality of contact.   I expect that he'll end up with an ERA of under 4 for the year in Los Angeles, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#480552) #
Pinango called up. I'm guessing Keys down.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#480553) #
Ugly, you're pointing out one facet and likely the weakest one of this putrid line up. Show me the weakest qualified 1B the past 4 months in MLB.

Show me the weakest qualified catchers and CF the last 6 months.

Show me the least valuable players in baseball the past 4 months by salary.

I don't think Gimenez will show up in any of those lists. Trade him, release him - whatever. You're going to lose one of the only reliable things on the team which is a defensive stalwart at a premium defensive position. Whoever replaces him will still leave you with the following bigger/real issues:

Vlad can't hit for power or make adjustments.
CF there is not strong option short term or long term.
Your newly extended catcher from last season is tanking.
Your starting pitchers have been awful.
Your closer from last year can't close games.

How would removing Gimeneze and putting somebody else there for less money do anything to improve the team? Give you someone with a wrc+ closer to 100 or 115 to bat at the bottom of the line up with worse defense? I don't follow the purpose of highlighting the offensive inability of Gimenez.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#480554) #
The point is this isn't just a slump for Gimenez. We're not talking months, we're talking years.

Gimenez just plain can't hit. He's a poor hitter even for a bench player. And we're playing him as an everyday starter.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#480555) #
Taylor Walls is an atrocious hitter who starts everyday for the 1st place Rays. Gimenez is really not the issue around here.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#480556) #
Yeah he can't hit but he's not a bench player because of his defense. Yes he's overpaid. That puts him somewhere at #5 - #10 of problems with this roster.

Priority Problems
#1 Vlad
#2 Berrios
#3 Santander
#4 Hoffman
#5 Varsho
#6 Gausman
#7 Springer
#8 Gimenez

2027 will change things:

#1 Berrios
#2 Santander
#3 Hoffman
#4 Gimenez
#5 Vlad again?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#480557) #
Mitch Bannon's Trade Proposals

1. Gausman to Cubs for Caple (SP) and Bateman ()F)

2. Hoffman and Varsho to Phillies for Crawford (OF)

3. Keys to Colorado for Doyle (OF)

4. Springer to Red Sox for Ingrassia (P)

5. Bieber to TB for Vilade (INF/OF) and Boyle (P)

Bonus: Scherzer to Nationals for PTBNL
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#480558) #
yeah the low budget rays did gamble this year on some combination of 50-grade 23yr old prospect Williams and always-injured Walls getting healthy enough to give them some version of great D with weak but not awful bat at SS this year.

One of many cheapo gambles they make. This one didn't work out for them, but obviously others have.

But phrasing anything as "the" problem is just wordgames. Gimenez is a terrible hitter and has been for a longtime. It's been a problem for a while now and it's a problem now and it will be a problem going forward if we keep doing it.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#480559) #
Gimenez isn't the problem but $23m/year for one of the 5 or 10 worst hitters in baseball sure ain't helping.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#480560) #
I just don't see Gimenez as a problem even. Every good/first placed team has a bad hitting spot in their lineup. The guy has the same number of RBI as Turner, Witt Jr., and Bogaerts in far fewer AB.

Could the Jays improve the team by adding a middle infielder that can hit? Of course.
June Northey - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#480561) #
To be honest, that $23 mil is quite secondary with the Jays budget. They have over 40 million potential viewers for every game, pack the stadium - both the TV network and the stadium owned by the same people who own the Jays. The cash flow from the Jays has to be crazy right now. Pre-2025 they had higher viewership than any other ML team, now lord knows how high it got before they pooped the bed (ratings no longer public). A $300 mil payroll should be sustainable for the Jays, or basically close to triple what the Rays spend. $23 mil out of that is not going to change anything.

Now, should they trade Gimenez if they find a good buyer? Hell yes. Clement can cover SS perfectly fine, with Schneider an in house option who can be solid at 2B until the kids in the minors are ready (Arjun Nimmala in AA with a solid 282/371/412 line in 97 PA at age 20 could be ready as soon as '27 but more likely '28, JoJo Parker doing 240/382/425 in A right now at 19). Josh Kasevich (25 in AAA 295/379/381 in 398 PA) was looking possible and might be a decent fill in for 26/27 until Nimmala is ready.

Basically losing Gimenez wouldn't be a big deal imo - there are plenty of internal options to cover SS now and in the future. So if any contender needs WOW defense at SS he is sitting here waiting. Wouldn't be shocked if he is traded with cash to cover some of his pay in order to get a half decent prospect back.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#480562) #
In the abstract, I agree that you can carry a black hole in your lineup and still succeed. As I said last night, the Jays have had very good teams carrying a Manny Lee or Alfredo Griffen. However, this team just doesn't have the surrounding offensive infrastructure to support that situation. More importantly, you can't have 10% of your salary committed to that guy when your total salary is costing you significant draft pick positioning. Put another way, if the Jays could magically waive away one existing contract from their books they'd choose Gimenez without batting an eye. None of which really disagrees with the idea that Gimenez isn't THE problem this year (not even in the top three or four) but he is a problem.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#480563) #
Gimenez wouldn't be in the top 3 of contracts they would dump if they could, and not even in the top 5 if we're talking about for this season.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#480564) #
Estrada optioned
Close to the IL

Pinango and Van Eyk recalled
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#480565) #
For sure the Jays would want to get out from the remaining $72.5m on that deal the second they were given a chance. There are 5 other worse contracts? That's ridiculous.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#480566) #
" Put another way, if the Jays could magically waive away one existing contract from their books they'd choose Gimenez without batting an eye"

I don't think so. I mean, Vlad is really their worst contract but I think they're hopeful there but it's the one I would wipe out in a second. These are the years he has to be making $50-60M in value to pay for what will be a brutal end and he's likely going to be worth like $10M. After that, Berrios is basically toast I think and has 2/$50 left. Santander is done and has 3/$57 left. Gimenez will be overpaid for sure but Ha-Seong Kim got $20M this year. What would Gimenez get as a free agent on a 3 year deal? $45M? if you think he's a 2-WAR player because of his excellent D and terrible offense, that's $7.5M/WAR which is pretty cheap so you're overpaying him maybe $9M a year? Again, that's bad but I have it as probably 4th worst Jays contract.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#480567) #
Pinango and Keys in the starting lineup.  Kirk is catching.  With a day game tomorrow and a lefthander starting, I would have anticipated that Valenzuela would start tonight and Kirk tomorrow.  Explanations, anyone?
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#480568) #
good teams don't have black holes in their lineup by choice.

and this has nothing to do with gimenez' contract actually. if we're playing him due to his contract that's even worse.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#480569) #
Blue Jay birthdays today: Dave Stieb and Cliff Johnson.  
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#480570) #
I don't get Pinango up again really. I just don't think he's that good (average hitter, terrible fielder) and Schenider is killing the ball in AAA and offers much needed RH bat.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#480571) #
At this year’s numbers there are at least 5 salaries they would dump first.

If we’re talking about moving forward, a debate can be had where Gimenez falls with Guerrero, Berrios, Santander, Ponce, and Hoffman. He wouldn’t be in my top 3.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#480572) #
Any view that Vladdy's contract is the worst is extremely premature. There were multiple posters on this site picking him as a league MVP just 4 months ago. Berrios is the other obvious choice for worst contract but you don't really know what you have with either Berrios or Santander until you know if they recover in any way from their injuries. I'd bet against Berrios but who knows with Santander.

Mike- I've given up trying to figure out Schneider's C usage.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#480573) #
and don't get confused by defensive war.

if you played 9 defensive whizzes in the field that hit like Gimenez, your team would be very very bad despite the defensive war.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#480574) #
Feel pretty confident about Vladdy contract being a bottom-5 one in baseball because he has to be fantastic for it to not be bad and he's bad . It's the second biggest contract in baseball history. He has to be like a 160 WRC+ sort of player to make it worth it at this point. His WRC+ is 94.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#480575) #
Uglyone, you're not going to have any success trying to convince people that Gimenez is a piss poor hitter and overpaid. Everybody knows this. Still not sure what your point is. Some people (myself included) are fine to carry an elite defensive SS as your sunk hole offensive player in the line up. Some (like you) are not. No biggie.

"good teams don't have black holes in their lineup by choice."

You know as well as anyone that the FO traded for Gimenez on the hope that he would return to be a better hitter which is why Cleveland gave him that contract in the first place. They didn't trade for him because they thought he got a contract of a 5-6WAR player but would regress to what he is now. If they could go back and re-do the trade they would surely pass.

Again, what is your point? Are you suggesting they should trade him? They probably would have if they could but why would anyone not have the same opinion you have and trade for him?

Do you think they should cut him, lose elite defense at SS and eat the contract?

What sir, is your point besides the fact that "good teams" don't run Gimenez out in the line up. Anyone can see the problem but few can solve it.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#480576) #
Vladdy is not a problem long term I don't think. Like most of the stars on the Phillies, Dodgers or someone like Aaron Judge you are going to lose so much value on the contract at some point but you're making up for it on the field and in other areas. You don't buy a cottage in Northern Ontario based on the price of the wood and shingles when it's on a premium lake with crystal clear water...you're gonna pay a lot more and I'm still very happy this team did that for Vlad.

The problem is no ability of this FO to pivot and acquire talent in season to improve the team. We've seen it too many times where we must recycle through AAAA fodder before realizing the team just isn't good enough. Ugly, you've been critical of this FO from the beginning with their attachment to control with prospects. This is still a problem as they still over-emphasize depth and "years of control."

Another problem is the manager. I am 100% firmly of this belief now that he is not the problem himself but he is the problem. Is it possible that he does everything right but the players simply don't care or are stuck in a rut under him? I don't know but there's nothing else to believe except dumb luck and I don't think I will believe last year's Jays or this year's Red Sox are dumb luck. I don't like that Mattingly went Philly and had instant success or Alex Cora getting dismissed and the new manager finding success. That tells me it's always the players fault not the manager but changing the manager can fix the problem when nothing else seems to.

Now if I'm rational about this everything above is nonsense but something's gotta give, right????
metafour - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#480577) #
Vlad's AAV is $35.71 mill per year. According to Fangraphs, the free-agency price for a star-level player in 2026 was $12.84 mill per projected WAR. So at Vlad's salary, he'd need to produce 2.78 WAR to break even given the free agent price on players signed in the 2025-2026 offseason with a projected WAR of 2+.

As he is sitting at just 0.8 fWAR today, it is obviously unlikely that he will be worth his salary in 2026. But obviously, I don't think anyone seriously expects 94 wRC+ hitting from him in future seasons. He is obviously a very confusing player, but this is his worst season ever at the plate.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#480578) #
Thanks, Nigel.  Kirk has very little in the way of platoon splits, and Valenzuela's splits so far this year are mostly due to BABIP.  Maybe they'd rather have Kirk catching with the Miles pitching today?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#480579) #
Schneider btw had a terrible press conference this week.

"The coaching staff and the players understand how hard baseball is and how it ebbs and flows, myself included."

This was after Mike Wilner asked about two massive offensive droughts in the past month.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#480580) #
I'm amazed that they just continue to roll out Vladdy batting 2nd or 3rd every day. How do you not try something else, anything else? Bat him leadoff and tell him to get on base, bat him 5th or 6th to get some pressure off, make up an injury, give him a day off far more frequently, etc. What they're trying just isn't working right now. .249/.352/.294 with 0 HRs at home is unbelievable.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#480581) #
Guerrero Jr. is 27, and it's awfully disappointing that he would have a season like this at that age. Willie McCovey had a season like this at age 26 in 1964 with a foot problem the likely culprit.  He had special soles the next season and moved from left-field to first base, and was off to the races. Unfortunately for the Giants, McCovey's move to first base led them to shift Orlando Cepeda from first base to left-field in 1965.  Early in the season, Cepeda hurt his knee badly diving for a ball and was out for the duration.  The following year the Giants traded him to the Cardinals and he was a key cog in the Cardinals teams of 1967-8.  
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#480582) #
Mike - my one pet theory on C usage is that Kirk has had pronounced reverse splits this year (mostly since returning from injury). That matches an "eye test" issue that I see which is Kirk can't hit anything on the inner half (which I'm guessing is related to his thumb injury). It might be that they want to keep Kirk away from LH's who can throw to the inner half. Otherwise its throwing darts at a wall blindfolded.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#480583) #
Great tidbit, Mike Green. I've been talking with many Jays fans about Vladdy lately and wondering if there was any precedent for a hitter of his calibre falling off the map at his age. It's good to know there's still lots of hope.

I don't want to hear them blame it on an injury, though, cuz he has been hurting the team for a while now. I remember when they did the same thing with Vernon one year and then his poor performance was chalked up to injury.
85bluejay - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#480584) #
Both the Red Sox and Phillies have benefitted from a managerial change. The all star break might have been a chance for the jays to take their shot but probably too late now.
TamRa - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#480585) #
"I don't get Pinango up again really."

Might be because they anticipate activating Sanchez soon and don't want to yank Davis up for just 5 or 6 games.

But for that to work you have to assume they are committed to having Keys here for a while longer.

Of course it's fair to ask whether they are seeing enough (beyond the stat line) from Keyes to justify him holding a spot that some might think should go to Schneider.Either way, in two weeks there might be some more opportunities.

scottt - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#480586) #
You can't walk Simpson.
Ideally you try to make him hit something in the air.

Sometimes it feels like they don't know what they are doing.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#480587) #
"Guerrero Jr. is 27, and it's awfully disappointing that he would have a season like this at that age. Willie McCovey had a season like this at age 26 in 1964 with a foot problem the likely culprit."

McCovey was exceptionally consistent in his career. Vlad had a much earlier start to his career so hard to compare but if you look at their age 27 years and 3 years prior, McCovey had WRC+ of 154, 162, 112, 158. That 112 sure looks like a fluke or injury and in-fact McCovey just kept going with great season one after another for another decade. Vlad on the other hand has had WRC+ of 117, 164, 137, 94. Just very hard for me to have that "he's just banged up this year" belief.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#480588) #
If (a big if) his arm can stay healthy, Miles looks like a viable back end of the rotation starter for next year with some upside. He has the weapons.
scottt - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#480589) #
They might have to shut him down eventually.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#480590) #
The Hoff.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#480591) #
The Varsho and the Gimmy too. Another ball just past a diving Gimenez, which seems to happen quite often at the 6. I just don't buy the OAA numbers.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#480592) #
I don’t buy them either. It doesn’t pass the eye test. I think Gimenez is somewhere between an average defensive SS and an above average one. Not the elite defender at SS that he is at 2B.
June Northey - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#480593) #
Now 0-3 vs the Rays in a must win series. A loss tomorrow and there is no way on earth I can see the Jays coming back to make the playoffs. 6 1/2 out of the playoffs, 6 ahead of the Rockies for dead last. That says it all. Sigh.

This could've been a great year, heck, it could've been a fun one where they fight to get to the playoffs but come up a touch short and we'd have been satisfied, but this? Ugh.
mendocino - Wednesday, July 22 2026 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#480595) #
watched a clip of Jim Bowden on Foul Territory, Jays sellers, Gausman, Bieber (if medical ok) and Varsho (thinks Pitt would be good fit). Jays have cash to get better return. And because of rumored returns for Hunter Goodman and Mason Miller Jays should check offers for Kirk, Valenzuela and Varland.
vw_fan17 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 12:30 AM EDT (#480596) #
Does Varsho need glasses? He seems to be "off" on longer runs (where he has to make the catch while running) much more frequently this year. Maybe it could also help him see those pitches he keeps missing are 6-8 inches above the top of the zone?

Yay - we had the lead for 1/2 an inning. Moral victory!!!

I guess I should have checked the game summary (I almost always watch the game after it's over due to PDT/PST) - any game both Hoff AND Little pitched in (without even seeing their stats), if I was a betting man, I'd immediately put money on Jays lost. Please take a "decent" offer for Hoffman - he's just not a good fit here for whatever reason.

Did I read that stat right? The Rays were 17/84 or something with the bases loaded? They've HAD the bases loaded 84 times this year? Like almost once per game - seemed like a lot? I took a quick look, and WTF - the Cubs have loaded the bases 124 times this season. Any guesses who is dead last in the league? Big hint - it's related to my surprise at 84 times for the Rays.

That's right - your Toronto Blue Jays are dead last in AB with the bases loaded - just 57. And we're even worse than the Rays (3rd worst) and their ~.200 batting average with the bases loaded at .193. The only worse team is Miami at .173. OPS with sacks drunk we're a shockingly not-horrible 21st at 651. How on earth are the Diamondbacks hitting for an OPS of 1045 with the bases loaded?!?  
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 12:36 AM EDT (#480597) #
It wouldn't be the worst thing to move Gimenez to 2B like last year and Ernie to SS.
TamRa - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 02:20 AM EDT (#480598) #
Wonder if Hoffman would get the Cubs to part with Kevin Alcantara (particularly if the Jays think he can be CF for a few years)

Also, no one much mentions him but a sneaky trade might be one involving Lukes, either a marginal deal alone or, maybe better, as an addition to (for example) a Bieber deal. Might make a return on a high-risk acquisition feel a little more acceptable for the other team.

Sanchez has more power but Lukes can defend at all three spots and that will have value. And his offense has been above average since the vertigo.

Michael - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:55 AM EDT (#480599) #
"Does Varsho need glasses?"

I asked that question about 6 months ago as I also think his much worse first jump/routes (where he used to be absolute best in baseball) could be a sign of not seeing the ball as well as he used to.

It also could be that by normal people standards he doesn't need them, but perhaps he used to have well above average (say 30/20 or 40/20) and has gotten worse to now be 20/20.

But if I were the Jays I'd certainly be regularly checking all the players vision each year (if not more frequently), and with players like Varsho that seem to by eye test be much worse defensively, I'd be checking extra carefully.

If you do end up selling and waving the white flag between now and the trade deadline, a 10 day DL for Vlad just to give him rest and mental break (and maybe help his back) makes sense once you give up on season.
Michael - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:55 AM EDT (#480600) #
"6 months ago"

er, I meant 6 weeks ago.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 07:29 AM EDT (#480601) #
I'm normally generally for trading elite closers as they are pieces you need on complete teams, not pieces you build around (and have a lot of instability) but I am 99% Jays won't because they want to win next year as well. Gausman, Bieber, and Varsho are gone and my guess is someone else will be traded as well. It makes sense to me to try to compete almost every year because playoffs are so big and very few teams are great. Like, it would have hardly taken a great performance this year to be a contender. Right now, I think pitching is mostly OK for next year. Will need another #2/3 starter and some depth but that's doable via free agency. Offense is a mess though and I am begging the Jays to rebuild that instead of tinkering around the edges and trying to get another borderline starting player and hoping it works out. You get prospects not only to keep them but also to trade them for players and have no problem with the Jays trading for long-term pieces even this deadline using prospects but for the love of God, no more Loperfido/Wagner types. Jays have enough.

Another factor is how incredibly unathletic this team is. Varsho and Springer have combined for 37% of Jays SB this year. If you can't hit and have no power, you should at least have speed and athleticism and defense. Jays have none of them. Last year, the Jays offense had an identity of everyone hitting, keeping it going, making contact, playing great D. That identity is gone and they need to find a new one.
BlueJayWay - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 08:04 AM EDT (#480603) #
But if I were the Jays I'd certainly be regularly checking all the players vision each year

You gotta figure they're doing that. Baseball's hard enough when you can see perfectly.

If they're not testing players during spring training and at least one other time during the regular season that's just negligent.
SK in NJ - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#480604) #
A big reason why the Jays were successful from 2020-25 was because they had two young/cheap impact players on years 0-6 service time, which gave them the ability to use their payroll to build around them via free agency. It’s now 2026. One of those players is on a free agent contract, the other is gone. There are no other difference making position players that fit the Vlad/Bo mold from the previous competitive window. They are paying full freight for Vlad, Gimenez, Okamoto, and Kirk. Two others are in their early 30’s (Clement, Lukes) and are 2 WAR types. They don’t have a CF lined up for next year. Using the same “let’s run it back next year” logic doesn’t work anymore. You can’t outspend a lack of player development. Eventually it will catch up to you. It’s caught up to the Jays. So in theory, going for it next year is fine, but they absolutely need to turn some of their high end trade assets into cheap impact young talent, otherwise the team will be resembling the Giants soon enough.

If Atkins has no intention of getting under the CBT to avoid penalties, then I’d probably just absorb as much money as possible when trading players and get better returns. Difference making returns. A competing team getting Gausman for free financially might be more inclined to give up a higher end prospect. If the first round pick is going to be pushed back 10 spots regardless, then saving incremental millions will be irrelevant to Rogers and the team. Get the best return possible.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#480605) #
There is a path to improving instantly and preserving your best prospects for future seasons. Trading for desirable guys like CJ Abrams will cost you those good prospects. Trading for guys like Devers or Trout shouldnt cost you much in prospect capital. The FO could have acquired someone like Devers, paid his salary and given up very little while improving the team and dealing with his future drawbacks. The real upshot is they would improve the team short term and long term by bringing in Devers and keeping their best prospects.

They didn't do that because they were too confident that their model from last year would worm again. They were too confident in Santander and too confident in Springer.

By the end of June, Springer should have moved into the OF permanently and someone like Devers should have come in to DH.
scottt - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 09:52 AM EDT (#480606) #
I'm not a big believer in management change, still there are some decisions that bother me.

The team dug itself into a hole early on against what was supposed to be the easiest part of the schedule..
Lukes played every day despite being sick.
Schneider started with the team despite struggling in the spring.
And I'm still puzzled by the add of Lenyn Sosa.
He was horrible and he's exactly the type of played they didn't need: low OBP.

The Jays are last on OBP, last in OPS, last in run scored, 26th in HR, 26th in stolen bases.
They are 17th in batting average.
The lack of walks has hurt as much as the lack of home runs.

Kirk has an OBP of .298, He previous worst was .319 in 2024.
Gimenez has an OBP 0f .267 (career worst) despite hitting .224 which is better than last year.
McAdoo, Keys, Sosa, Heineman, Barger, Gimenez, Straw, Schneider have all been under .300.
Springer is at .306 which is significantly below his .351 career average.
Ryan Day - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#480607) #
If they're not testing players during spring training and at least one other time during the regular season that's just negligent.

Heck, if guys like Varsho who don't have long-term contracts aren't getting their eyes tested regularly on their own initiative, that's pretty negligent, too. Imagine costing yourself millions of dollars because you couldn't make it to an optometrist.
scottt - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#480608) #
The Jays don't have the financial flexibility to take on bad contracts.
Rogers has money, but the current CBA punishes team over the tax threshold and who knows what the next on will entail.

The Jays still have elite defense, but if they don't have guys who hits lots of homeruns, they need guys who get on base.
They can't carry guys with low OBP who don't slug. 

The future belongs to younger players.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#480609) #
Jays should absolutely be absorbing short-term contracts for better prospects. I don't see them shedding enough salary to make a difference. Take Marcel Ozuna back in a trade and release him. The $3M or whatever is nothing for Jays but matters for super cheap Pirates. I don't think Jays can be taking on more long-term bad contracts though. Next two years, they are on the hook for $110M for 4 guys who gave given them a total of 2 WAR so far this season. (Vlad, Berrios, Gimenez, Santander).
92-93 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#480610) #
Bang on, SK in NJ. When Shapiro came in he was critical of AA and the empty cupboard, and promised to be focused on waves of talent that have simply never materialized. That's entirely on him and the front office he assembled.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#480612) #
2027 Spotrac

1B Guerrero $35.7
SS Gimenez $15.2
3B Okamoto $15.0
DH Santander $13.7
C Kirk $11.6
LF Sanchez arb4
2B Clement arb3
CF Lukes arb1
RF Barger pre-arb

UT Schneider arb1
UT Sosa arb1
C Valenzuela pre-arb

(Buyout Straw $1.8)

MLB-readyish Prospects:

CF Clase 25
RF Schreck 26
LF Harry 24
3B McAdoo 25
SS Nimmala 21
2B Kasevich 26
1B Keys 24
C Parker 24
DH Pinango 25

OF Bohrofen 25
OF Perez 24
IF Goodwin 25
OF Micheletti 25
OF Cunningham 26





SP Cease $26.8
SP Yesavage $1.0
SP Berrios $18.7
SP Ponce $10.0
SP Miles pre-arb

RP Varland arb1
RP Rogers $12.3
RP Hoffman $11.0
RP Fisher pre-arb
RP Fluharty pre-arb

RP Rodriguez $6.4
RP Mantiply arb3
RP SWR arb1
RP Francis arb1
RP Little pre-arb


Prospects

SP Bloss 26
SP Tiedemann 24
SP Perry 23
SP Stanifer 23
SP Guerra 23
SP Carlon 22
SP King 20

RP Coleman 25
RP Macko 26


pooks137 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#480613) #
The Jays during this 2020-25 competitive cycle have had to buy their entire starting rotation because they haven't been able to draft or sign any of their own in-house cheap talent.

They haven't developed any SP between Manoah & Yesavage. And Manoah imploded sooner than most predicted. While Yesavage was likely rushed for the needs of the 2025 run.

The Jays were fortunate that most of their expensive, older SP FA signings have worked out during this window. Gausman & Bassitt were both healthy and productive. Berrios was cromulent for the first few years of his extension before he became ineffective, pouty & hurt. Kikuchi was wild, but led to a great trade deadline return in his walk year during a down 2024.

The Scherzer signing was more about vibes. Seems like they may have finally got snakebitten with Ponce via a freak injury.

The other cheap young guys have been picked up from outside the org like Bowden Francis & Spencer Miles.

The problem is that it's very expensive (and risky) to try to fill out your entire rotation with old FA pickups at market rates. As we see with the 2026 Jays, it leads to bloated multiyear payrolls and less salary space left over to fill the other holes in the rest of the lineup.

Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#480614) #
"The Jays during this 2020-25 competitive cycle have had to buy their entire starting rotation because they haven't been able to draft or sign any of their own in-house cheap talent."

The inability to develop talent has been a huge issue with this team for a while. The last few drafts definitely look better but other teams are are able to develop stars and get occasional big hits later and Jays seem don't seem to be able to develop anyone.
Nigel - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#480615) #
The drafting and development has been mediocre under this FO but allowing the complete collapse of the IFA signing and development pipeline has been criminally negligent.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#480616) #
Shi says Davis is taking BP right now.
SK in NJ - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#480617) #
The Jays have had some hits with player development, but it's been with other organizations.

Otto Lopez: 4.3 WAR, 134 wRC+, $811k (99 games)
Gabriel Moreno: 2.8 WAR, 132 wRC+, $2.55M (75 games)
Spencer Horwitz: 1.3 WAR, 132 wRC+, $802k (74 games)

Horwitz is essentially the same guy he was with Toronto, but clearly Lopez and maybe to some extent Moreno benefitted from being where they are. The Jays needed that next wave of talent as Vlad/Bo got closer to free agency, and it just never materialized. They couldn't develop a CF, so they had to trade Moreno. They couldn't develop a 2B/SS in the event Bo left, so they traded Horwitz. Lopez I believe was out of options when the Jays traded him, and he was coming off an awful year in AAA, so his exit is a bit more understandable, but a team that can't develop players losing a player that ends up turning into that (while absorbing $100M of Gimenez's contract a year later), definitely stings.

The more I look at the Jays, the more I see the SF Giants. They absolutely cannot go into this winter saying "we believe in our guys" and then overpay for a FA or two hoping it fixes things. It would be putting a bandaid on a broken leg.
Gerry - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#480618) #
Keys optioned, Schneider up.

Corbin to the IL, Macko back.
99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#480619) #
One way to injecting some impact talent into the org would be with the 1st pick in the draft next year, something I find myself hoping for these days. Otherwise, I’m looking forward to learning about the new players brought in at the deadline.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#480620) #
Well, one of the top picks next year looks likely to be Brendan Lawson from Toronto so that seems like something to dream on.
metafour - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#480621) #
The Jays have been much better in the draft and IFA market recently, so there has been improvement. They have also shown a strong eye at identifying talent from other organizations, which should hopefully bear fruit again once they sell at this trade deadline.

Ryan Sprock, the arrow-up catcher that they just acquired for Tommy Nance already has 2 HR's in 4 games played for Vancouver (although one of the HR's was an inside the park HR that confused the outfielder). They have quietly built a stable of interesting catchers at all levels in the minors.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#480622) #
bwar


SS B,Bichette (28) 21.1
2B C.Biggio (31) 6.8
1B S.Horwitz (28) 4.0
LF D.Schneider (27) 2.7
C R.Adams (30) 2.1
DH G.Conine (28) 1.6
3B R.Noda (30) 1.4
RF A.Barger (26) 1.3
CF A.Martin (27) 0.0

UT J.Palacios (30) -1.7
OF A.Roden (25) -0.5
IF K.Smith (29) -0.3
C

UT J.Groshans (26) -0.1
OF C.Stevenson (29) -0.5
IF V.Capra (29) -0.8
C

OF W.Robertson (28) -1.1
IF C.Eden (28) -0.1





RH A.Manoah (28) 7.2
RH T.Yesavage (22) 2.2
RH T.Zeuch (30) -0.6
LH Z.Logue (30) -1.5

RH J.Winkowski (28) 1.6
RH Z.Jackson (31) 1.6
RH M.Svanson (27) 0.9
LH M.Fluharty (24) 0.6
LH B.Eisert (28) -0.1
LH K.Snead (31) -0.5
RH N.Pearson (29) -0.9

RH C.Dallas (26) 0.2
RH A.Kloffenstein (25) 0.1
RH C.VanEyk (27) 0.1
LH J.Fishman (31) 0.1
RH T.Tice (30) 0.1
RH G.Hoglund (26) 0.0
RH H.Danner (27) 0.0
LH N.Allgeyer (30) 0.0
RH H.Juenger (25) -0.1
Nigel - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#480623) #
Schneider for Keys should have happened a few days ago but thumbs up. Although it was clear that Keys isn't yet ready to hit major league breaking balls, I thought that there was some promise in his bat. On the other hand, he looks like a DH to me in the field.
Gerry - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#480625) #
The Jays have claimed Rudy Martin Jr off waivers. This will be Martin's third team in a week.

Seems like backup in case they trade Springer and Varsho.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#480628) #
I imagined that Keys would be the club's next DH.  I didn't see anything that made me change my view, despite the poor results.  I felt that he just needed regular work for a while to settle in.  We'll see when his next opportunity is.  
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#480630) #
The problem with all of the criticism of this team and FO is that this is a playoff team and competitive team if Vladimir Guerrero Jr isn't playing below average...

Someone said it wouldn't change the team to miraculously be a top contender but it would easily tip them into a wild car team at least. #27 is leaving men on base and wasting the most important spot in the line up. IF you replace his numbers this year with the typical top hitter on a team then this team is a .500 team at least.

If you pivot from Hoffman earlier in the season as closer then you gain another 5 games. This team isn't the disaster it is if Vlad played anywhere near his career norm.

The FO has been excellent at player development and poor with drafting under Shane Farrell but that's improved huge since they moved off from him.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#480632) #
Very hard to judge a guy who makes his major league debut and plays a couple of times a week. Keys clearly has things to work on but needs everyday playing time to do so. I think DH next year isn't really a position they need to fill as some combination of who is left from Keys, Santander, Okamoto, Vlad, Sanchez, etc... Is probably fine. It's almost everywhere else they need to fix.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#480635) #
Gimenez gets a rest today, even against the righty. Urias plays 2B.

But because we can't go without at least one black hole in the lineup, Straw is in.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#480636) #
Curious to hear from posters...

If there is one player you could realistically trade for to turn this existing team around for 2027 and beyond who would it be?

*You have to pay fair price to get this player
*He must be acquired via trade

For me it would be to trade for Kurtz, De La Cruz or Carroll with a high package cost of top prospects.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#480640) #
Despite the struggles this year, the current offensive projections still don't look much different than they did before the season.


1 Very Good Bat

Guerrero 135wrc+ --- (96 actual, for -39 below current expectations)

3 above average to good bats

Springer 114 --- 95 (-19)
Okamoto 112 --- 110 (-2)
Kirk 111 --- 77 (-34)

Another 7 or so solidly average:

Lukes 107 --- 107 (---)
Sanchez 106 --- 107 (+1)
Barger 105 --- 0 (-105)
Schneider 102 --- 67 (-35)
Clement 99 --- 107 (+8)
Urias 99 --- 132 (+33)
Varsho 98 --- 88 (-10)

and then below average bats to fill out the last two slots:

Gimenez 89 --- 70 (-19)
Valenzuela 80 --- 103 (+23)

and some more moderately below average bats to fill in:

Schreck 96 --- n/a
Pinango 87 --- 104 (+17)
Clase 85 --- 152 (+67)
McAdoo 85 --- 13 (-72)
Sosa 82 --- 30 (-52)
Keys 81 --- 24 (-57)
Straw 73 --- 65 (-8)
MacIver 72 --- n/a

Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#480643) #
Am I crazy or has Straw started 3/4 games against RHP? That can't be right.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#480645) #
Team looks unusually crisp today in the field amd on the basepaths.

Through 1.5 innings at least.
Ryan Day - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#480646) #
But because we can't go without at least one black hole in the lineup, Straw is in.

Varsho's hitting 143/172/161 in July. He's currently a bigger black hole than Straw or Gimenez.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#480647) #
fair enough.
Nigel - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#480650) #
Bieber has looked much better since the first pitch of his last outing. He might end up being a better trade chit than Gausman. If you were an optimist about next year you could do worse than trying to resign him if he were willing to do a 2 year deal.
99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#480652) #
So…is Bieber back? Let’s extend him!
99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#480653) #
Nigel beat me to it! Sorry Nigel I didn’t refresh
Nigel - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#480654) #
Okamoto at the plate reminds me of Gurriel Jr. in a variety of ways but mostly the extreme streakiness. When Okamoto goes bad he goes real real bad (and vice versa).
92-93 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#480655) #
It's easy to see Bieber returning on a qualifying offer (or a deal with options with the Jays).
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#480656) #
I like Bieber and would love it if he resigned here.
TamRa - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#480658) #
for all the sentimental reasons to look at Gausman (which, the team doesn't really do sentiment - see Bassitt, Chris) there's a fair argument that Bieber might end up being a nice fit and he'd resign to any reasonable offer. Probably though you could do that in the off-season even if you trade him (and the trade would mean no QO to worry about)
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#480660) #
This was a real actual well-played ballgame by the home team. It's been a while.


bieber and scherzer could really help the rest of the way, even if it's probably too late.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#480661) #
I'd have Bieber back but a lot of recency bias in these comments. He's barely pitched with the Jays and hasn't been very good overall I'd be ecstatic if he has another great start because that means I think they could get a fairly good return for him. They gave up Stephen for him last year coming back from TJ so I think that's the floor of what you should expect back now.
metafour - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#480662) #
I would trade Bieber. The issue I see is that he's been a starter since 2018, and he has only pitched more than 130 innings in a season twice. Even before the TJ surgery he has had other injury-shortened seasons.

If he likes it here you can see if he'd resign in the offseason, but if he pitches well again and can bring a serious prospect back at the deadline, they should do it.
92-93 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#480663) #
Is there any doubt that the Jays roll into Fenway and win the series, further muddying the picture? Might as well sweep em again.
scottt - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#480664) #
We don't know if the next CBA has Qualifying Offers.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#480665) #
I mean he's been pretty effective as a jay, when healthy, even including the handful of bad starts this year.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#480666) #
Bieber had a 4.36 ERA with the Jays going into today. I like him and would happy to have him back but view him as a mid-rotation guy with injury risk rather than a front-line starter. That's still very valuable though. I would absolutely trade him now though. It never made sense to me to hold on to pending free agents unless you were contending and they could help you win.
uglyone - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#480667) #
4.06 including today. Better than league average, while throwing 5.5ip per start. his FIP is higher but his xFIP is better than his ERA. Also had a 3.86era in 5 outings in the playoffs. Still only 31.
scottt - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#480669) #
Gurriel took a while to turn into Gurriel.
He's an aggressive hitter that doesn't walk much but makes contacts on bad pitches.
Okamoto doesn't chase that much.

Gurriel swings 50.7%, 68% on strikes, 40% on balls.  Contact on strikes 87%, on balls,63%.
Okamoto swings 46%, 67% on strikes, 27% on balls. Contact on strikes 79%, on balls 43%.

scottt - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#480670) #
It kinda sucks that Boston lost yesterday.
I would have like to watch the Jays end their winning streak.
Nigel - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#480671) #
Just rewatching the highlights of the game. I thought so watching it live but seeing it again I think Lukes gets to one and probably both of the hits to right that led to the Rays run. Pinango is best suited to DH.
SK in NJ - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#480673) #
The CBA is the elephant in the room here. I don't remember what MLB did five years ago with the QO. I do recall players signing before December 1 to avoid being in limbo before the lockout, so I guess it's possible that the QO still exists next season even if the CBA ends up changing, but I wouldn't take that risk. Trade Bieber if he's healthy. I would hope the return would be a slightly better prospect than Khal Stephen considering that's who the Jays gave up for him last year when it was no certainty he was even going to pitch.
mendocino - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#480675) #
Jon Morosi@jonmorosi

Trade Deadline note:

Shane Bieber’s value is trending upward after an impressive start today against the playoff-bound Rays.

The Brewers, White Sox, and (ironically) Rays are among the teams active in the rotation market.
Glevin - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#480677) #
"Pinango is best suited to DH."

Absolutely but doesn't have offensive profile of a DH. He has roughly what, a 105 WRC+ career in AAA? Just don't see him as a regular major leaguer. Too bad Schreck is out forever because would have liked to have had a look at him during this lost season but very likely Jays replacements need to come from outside organization. Keys didn't look like much of a fielder in his stint but A) It was a brief stint so maybe he was just nervous and he's better than that B) Keys has way more upside as a hitter.
June Northey - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#480681) #
The Rays have 7 top 100 prospects at FanGraphs in their trade deadline update - 2 top 20's in Grady Emerson SS & Theo Gillen CF - would be shocked if they dealt either, #31 Caden Bodine C, #46 Brody Hopkins SP, #50 Taitn Gray 1B, #75 Brayden Taylor 3B, and #87 Michael Forret SP - obviously the Jays would be after Theo Gillen as a CF is a priority I'd hope (in AA so close) but would be shocked if they could pry him out of Tampa's hands. Brewers have the #1 prospect (ain't trading him), #25 a SS, #42 a RF, #63 a SS, #88 a SP, and #106 a C. Again the RF would be tempting given the Jays needs as would the pitcher and Milwaukee has a deep system. Could the Jays get either for Bieber and/or Gausman? The White Sox have #19 SS, #92 SP, #98 3B.

So the 3 teams mentioned all have lots of top 100 guys who they could deal, Bieber is looking like a premier piece for a contender, lets see which team cracks first.
vw_fan17 - Thursday, July 23 2026 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#480682) #
Re: Varsho should be getting his eyes checked on his own - I agree, but if you're the type that's never needed glasses growing up, you don't realize how slowly it sneaks up on you or that it might be an issue. i got my first pair in grade 12, but should have probably had them in grade 9. I was SHOCKED at how much more I could see with that first pair of specs. I kinda guessed by the end I needed them, but I still didn't realize how much I needed them.

Re: trade for any player: Ohtani, but then again, I don't think we have the pieces to offer fair value. Even if we sent our entire starting rotation, Varsho, Varland and Vlad (Varsho for the alliteration).(I know a few of the older stars, but not much else on other teams these days - I've always been a "home team only" type). I think the biggest problem is that we don't really have much of a surplus to trade from - maybe left-hand hitting outfielders / DH types? I wouldn't want to trade for MORE 1B / DH types like Devers - we already have Vlad and Okamoto (although he had a nice game today!)

I agree - trade Bieber, maybe resign in the offseason after you know what's what..No sense in extending him now.
Michael - Friday, July 24 2026 @ 03:33 AM EDT (#480683) #
It is so much more fun to watch the games when the team is actually playing well with good hustle plays, good defensive plays, etc.

Springer and Bieber both look much better, if they aren't dealt at deadline, they might help a miracle playoff run in the last half.

But yeah the biggest problem is whatever is up with Vlad. He still made some nice defensive plays and got an RBI single, but he's clearly not the Vlad of late last year.
Jacob - Friday, July 24 2026 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#480684) #
I think Vlad has always had a downward plane to his swing through the zone but the woodchopping is pretty extreme on the slow motion sideviews of his swing this season. Hard to get lift on the ball unless he's way early. Probably why 3 of his 5 homers are down-and-in and 1 middle-middle. I fear it's mostly backspin linedrive singles and grounders until this changes.

Varsho also an extreme woodchopper from the few slo-mos that I've watched lately. That's not good for two guys we are hoping to hit home runs for the team.
Mike Green - Friday, July 24 2026 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#480685) #
Tale of the tape, Lauer vs. Bieber, 2025-6 (https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&type=8&month=0&ind=0&startdate=&enddate=&season1=2025&season=2026&qual=50&team=14%2Cto

Short account- Lauer leads in K/9 (8.17 to 7.69) and HR/9 (1.66 to 1.90) and HR/FB (12.3 to 20.5); Bieber leads in W/9 (2.41 to 2.68) and BABiP (.259 to .262) and strand rate (83.1 to 78.2%).  Lauer leads in barrels (9.4 to 10.8%) and in hard-hit rate (41.8% to 47.6%). Bieber leads marginally in ERA (4.06 to 4.09) and xFIP (3.89 to 4.56) but trails in xERA (4.41 to 5.58). 

Personally, I find them comparable pitchers at this point, with Lauer a little better, and would be happy to have either behind Cease, Yesavage, Ponce, Miles and (perhaps) Gausman in the rotation in 2027.  If you put good defence behind Lauer or Bieber, I think that either will give you good outings most of the time.  



dalimon5 - Friday, July 24 2026 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#480687) #
Mike,

Your comparison factors in a stretch of starts from Bieber coming off injury. If you throw out his first 3 starts how do the numbers compare? The excitement with Bieber is without his first 3 poor starts this year which can be attributed to his "rounding into form," from recovery/injury.

In other words, if you include his poor starts it lowers his numbers and it lowers any appetite to resign him or claim he's better than a middling starter like Lauer. Oh yeah, he's not a quitter and doesn't openly show up his manager and front office...not sure how many teams want that type of player on a playoff roster.
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