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Okay, so Hornsby at 2B. Who's his all-time keystone partner?

Luke Appling 1 (0.79%)
Joe Cronin 0 (0.00%)
Barry Larkin 3 (2.36%)
Cal Ripken Jr. 15 (11.81%)
Alex Rodriguez 46 (36.22%)
Alan Trammell 4 (3.15%)
Arky Vaughan 0 (0.00%)
Hans Wagner 54 (42.52%)
Robin Yount 1 (0.79%)
Other (who?) 3 (2.36%)
Okay, so Hornsby at 2B. Who's his all-time keystone partner? | 7 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mick Doherty - Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 11:09 AM EST (#163183) #
Candidates again thanks to the rankings at The Baseball Page ... I eliminated two 19th-century
shorstops in George Davis and Bill Dahlen and opted for Ripken and Trammell over Pee Wee Reese
(sorry, mom) ... the next guy on the list was Ozzie Smith.
AWeb - Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 12:12 PM EST (#163187) #
Just curious, but has Honus Wagner become Hans Wagner? From what I know, his real name is Johannes.

I don't even remember Yount as a SS, he was an outfielder when my memory kicks in. Were his 10-11 years there really enough for top-ten alltime at short? Jeter, has fielding aside, has been a far superior hitter. And it's always good not to vote for Jeter.
Mike Green - Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 02:12 PM EST (#163205) #
Yount came up at age 18, and struggled with the bat for 3 years.  At his peak in 1982-83, he was a great hitter and better than Jeter at his peak in 99-00.  There's no comparison between the two as fielders.  Yount was above average at short, but not great, while Jeter has been below average. 

On the other hand, Jeter has been exceptionally durable and consistent for many years, and is still playing shortstop at about the same level. 

Not that either of them is remotely close to Hans (or Honus or Johannes) Wagner.

rotorose - Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 04:14 PM EST (#163229) #
From the book entitled: "Honus Wagner: A Biography", it explains that he was christened Johannes, but called Hans by his family and by himself as a young man, although he was also called "Honus" as a nickname by his family because it was a general term of endearment for big, awkward kids. Later in life he took to calling himself Honus and his Hall of Fame plaque reads Honus Wagner. The plaque mentions that when he retired in 1917 he had scored more runs, made more hits and stolen more bases than any other player in the history of his league.

While A-Rod is good, Wagner was dominant. In 1908, for example, he won his sixth batting title in a row by hitting .354 when the league batting average was .239. His OPS was 90 points higher than his closest competitor.
actionjackson - Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 11:48 PM EST (#163294) #
If Wagner doesn't take this I will be very disappointed, and not because I have a hate-on for Alex Rodriguez. Take what rotorose said above and add to it that it was said of Wagner that he could've played all the positions on the diamond. He played every one except catcher. He even pitched and wasn't too bad at it. A-Rod's personal best OPS+ is 167, which he has done twice in his career (2000 and 2005). Wagner beat that mark 7 times in his career in 1900 and from 1904-1909 inclusive with marks of  175,  187,  174,  168,  187,  205,  and  173. That's right you read that correctly: a 205 OPS+ in 1908 in his age 34 season. Translation for those scratching their heads wondering about this OPS+ crap: During the lowest scoring season of that era, equaled in this era by "the year of the pitcher" in 1968, Hans went out and assembled a raw OPS of .957. Sounds pretty average by today's standards don't it? Well, today the league average OPS is about .760. In 1908, it was .626! Words cannot explain the gap between him and the average player of his time and he could play all the OF and IF positions and play them very well defensively. Alex Rodriguez is a fantastic ballplayer and will be the all-time HR king someday. However, he is not a patch on The Flying Dutchman and he may never be.
actionjackson - Friday, February 09 2007 @ 01:20 AM EST (#163304) #
Slight error in above post. The NL OPS was .605 in 1908. The adjusted league average OPS of the Pirates was .626 and therefore for the purposes of OPS+ that is the one Hans gets compared to. Do yourself a favour and check out the NL leaderboards on the league pages from about 1899-1912 over at baseball-reference. Notice who dominates those 14 years (age 25-38) more than anyone else? Will A-Rod be able to maintain his abilities, let alone raise them (which in my eyes he has to do to pass Wagner) as he approaches his non-peak seasons. It will be interesting to watch, but it may be over before it begins if he can't find a team that will let him play SS.
zeppelinkm - Friday, February 09 2007 @ 09:16 AM EST (#163309) #
I don't think the difference is that great. If you put today's A-Rod in a game back then, I imagine he'd have done well. Today's league is much more balanced I think. I don't have any hard proof of this but I do have some logic. The athletes are bigger and stronger, specialized pitchers for 1/3rd of the game, drawing players from all parts of the world much more so, much improved facilities and minor ball programs, more kids playing etc., all in all the talent pool to pull players from is much bigger. I think it's just genuinely harder to dominate above and beyond your peers the way Wagner did back then, because all your peers on an average are better ball players now.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Wagner, I just think some context/perspective might shrink the distance between him and A-Rod. And if A-Rod has a slow decline, he might end up with one of the greatest batting careers of all time, bar none. Although it'd sure help his case if he could start hitting some freaking dingers after September'.

Like I said though this is just through reasoning, if there is someplace I can see a more sophiscated analysis of something like this that would be great fun to read.




Okay, so Hornsby at 2B. Who's his all-time keystone partner? | 7 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.