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Spring Training officially gets underway for the Blue Jays today, with pitchers and catchers reporting to the Bobby Mattick Training Center at Englebert Complex in Dunedin, Florida. Four starting pitchers are guaranteed to make the 25-man roster, barring injury, as are five of a possible 6 or 7 relievers.

Those locks to make the roster are, naturally, names you know well. Roy Halladay leads the rotation for the 4th year running, followed up by the Best Lefty in the AL East*, Mr. Theodore Roosevelt Lilly. Dave Bush looks to build on a very promising rookie campaign, while veteran Miguel Batista hopes to rebound from a disappointing '04.

In the bullpen, Justin Speier and Jason Frasor return for the late innings, while Scott Schoeneweis joins the team as lefty specialist. Billy Koch begins his second tour of duty in Toronto as a middle reliever. Kerry Ligtenberg will try to regain the form of his first 5 years, having been injured and quite a bit less than effective in 2004.

Lets have a look at the other hurlers in camp, and what the immediate future may hold for each.

*Middleweight class - under 6'5", 250.

The Starters

While Josh Towers hasn't done anything to lose his fifth starters role, he faces a challenge nonetheless this spring as 2004 success story Gustavo Chacin and minor league vet Ryan Glynn try to topple him and make the big league roster. Should he survive this challenge (and I'd give him a 75% chance of doing so) it won't get any easier for Towers going forward as the arms on the farm continue to ripen. If Chacin can show himself to be more than a one-year wonder, he'll get a chance to start in the big leagues someday, be it in Toronto or elsewhere. Glynn is most likely to continue down the 4A path, and will be welcomed on what should be a much improved team in Syracuse this season.

Name	Age	Level     	IP	ERA	H	BB	K	HR
Chacin	24	MLB / AAA / AA	168	2.79	137	55	129	15
Glynn	30	MLB / AAA	131	3.78	127	56	108	11
Towers	28	MLB / AAA	152	4.50	181	33	76	21

2004 season stats. Ages as of July 1, 2005.

The Relievers

While Vinny Chulk teamed with Jason Frasor to make for an unlikely but effective 1-2 punch in the first half of 2004, he faded badly in the second half and faces a lot of competition for one or two openings in the Toronto pen. Top prospect Brandon League looked great in a 5-inning Major League audition, and GM J.P. Ricciardi has hinted that the Hawaiian Punch-Out will serve in the Toronto pen, rather than looking to establish himself as a starting pitcher in Syracuse. Minor league free agents Scott Downs, Jesse Carlson, Steve Andrade, and Spike Lundberg all hope to impress the right people in Dunedin. Claimed on waivers from the Angels this winter, Andrade’s name came up in a recent roundtable discussion at Baseball America, and should he make it to Toronto he’ll be an interesting data point in the Stats vs. Scouting debate.

Back from Japan, Pete Walker faces an uphill battle to break with the big club, but he does have the selling point of being able to absorb a good number of innings. Traded from Tampa Bay to Toronto in exchange for Kevin Cash this winter, Chad Gaudin is the second-most interesting amongst the bullpen hopefuls and at 21 years old he already has two half-seasons of big league pitching under his belt. The Jays are much more conservative than the Rays when it comes to player development, however, and they'll likely choose to have Gaudin hone his pitches in Syracuse for at least the first half of the campaign. His talent dictates he will be back in the majors as some point - whether as a starter or a reliever remains to be determined.

Name	Age	Level     	IP	ERA	H	BB	K	HR
Andrade	27	AAA / AA	62	2.90	52	20	76	5
Carlson	23	AA        	55	5.04	57	21	51	5
Chulk	26	MLB / AAA	85	4.02	86	38	70	11
Downs	29	MLB / AAA	198	4.05	222	49	105	25
Gaudin	22	MLB / AAA	91	4.75	107	33	82	12
League	22	MLB / AA	109	3.22	95	42	92	3
Lundbrg	28	AAA / AA	79	3.19	84	20	67	9
Walker	36	Japan       	46	6.80	63	19	23	18

The Prospects

Many of Toronto’s bumper crop of pitching prospects figure to spend some time at the Major League camp, though none of these have a realistic shot of making the club coming out of Spring Training. 2003 2nd-rounder Josh Banks and the now recovered from Tommy John surgery Francisco Rosario are the best bets to sip their first cup of Major League java in 2005. 2003 3rd-rounder Shaun Marcum and 9th-rounder Jamie Vermilyea also have an outside shot. Canadian Vince Perkins, the emerging Ismael Ramirez, and the rehabbing Dustin McGowan will be content to rise to AAA Syracuse this year.

Name	Age	Level  	IP	ERA	H	BB	K	HR
Banks	22	AA / A+	151	3.75	138	36	136	19
Marcum	23	A+ / A	148	3.16	138	20	155	13
McGowan	22	AA	31	4.06	24	15	29	4
Perkins	22	A+	55	3.95	53	24	47	2
Ramirez	23	A+	165	2.72	151	25	131	5
Rosario	24	A+ / AA	65	4.41	64	27	61	8
Vermil.	23	AA / A+	113	2.80	97	25	76	6

And Also

The clock is nearing midnight for Justin Miller and Jason Arnold in Toronto, and younger prospects will soon pass them by if they are unable to turn things around. Seung Song and Mike Nannini are still fairly young, and both were once thought of as top prospects. They’ll attempt to prove that the potential they once showed can be turned into big league results. Minor league vet Adrian Burnside will most likely serve as the lefty specialist in Syracuse, where relative grey beard Matt Whiteside projects to be the closer.

Name	Age	Level     	IP	ERA	H	BB	K	HR
Arnold	26	AAA / AA / A+	67	3.63	70	19	40	11
Burnsde	27	AAA          	76	6.13	87	40	62	11
Miller	28	MLB / AAA	99	5.36	117	46	68	16
Nannini	24	AAA          	151	5.29	156	42	111	31
Song	25	AAA / A+ / R	84	4.82	94	36	72	9
Whitesd	37	AAA          	64	3.23	56	16	59	9


It seems like every year around this time I think, “It’ll be nice to finally have some good pitching depth” – but in the last couple years we’ve seen more than a few pitchers come, get lit up, and move on. Call me a sucker, but I really am convinced that there’s more than enough talent in this group for a full 162-game baseball season. I look forward to seeing which ones step up, be it in Spring Training or over the course of the regular season.

Spring Training '05: Pitcher This | 70 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Gerry - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 09:21 AM EST (#103056) #
Good job. I think this time next year will be more interesting, Chacin, Banks, McGowan, Vermilyea and Rosario could all be looking for a major league spot this time next year, if not by August.
Sean - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 10:25 AM EST (#103065) #
Im realy looking foward to the style of play the jays are going to do. Instead of waiting for the big 3 run homerun, manufacturing runs.
Wells, Rios, Hinske and many more all having decent stealing numbers.
should be a fun season.
Pistol - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 10:31 AM EST (#103066) #

Well, it all starts at the top and it sounds like Halladay is ready to go.

I've seen in a few different places that Halladay's shoulder problem last year was related to his IP the previous two seasons, but it appears it had more to do with training too hard off the field.

Pete Warren - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 10:43 AM EST (#103067) #
This season is definitley a start of a new era in Toronto. The post World Series failures are behind us, and a bright future awaits. Go Jays Go!
PeterG - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 11:23 AM EST (#103073) #
I would think that Justin Miller is a strong candidate to be traded before the end of ST along with 1 or 2 of the additional excess pitchers. There are simply more bodies than can be utilized at major and AAA levels. Miller, I believe, is out of options and cannot be sent to Syracuse without clearing waivers.
Brian B. - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 11:53 AM EST (#103077) #
It's interesting that this article also suggests that J.P. might *still* be looking to trade for a starting pitcher (Javier Vasquez might be too expensive Mark Zwolinski says.)
Jim - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 11:59 AM EST (#103078) #
I have an unnatural obsession with Gaudin. I think in a few years we'll all sit back and laugh about how JP stole him for Kevin Cash.

Magpie - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 12:10 PM EST (#103080) #
Dr Prison Fence quoting the skipper:

"You always try to write him off. They always try to upgrade on him, but he's done a good job for us. I expect him to win some games." -- Gibbons talking about his fifth starter, Josh Towers

Last year, as we all recall, Towers was just a holding action until Miller was ready. Because nobody really believes in Towers... Gibbons seems as if he's willing to make use of what Towers can do, rather than worry about what he can't.

There are five jobs locked up in the pen, but they seem to be thinking about carrying 12 (ugh!) pitchers, and one of them will be Brandon League. I would think Yo-Vinnie goes into camp with a head start on the other job.

Somehow, I think I'd better preview every comment before posting. Until I get the hang of the new software...

Mylegacy - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 12:16 PM EST (#103084) #
I agree with Gerry in the first post above...

BUT I go further..If at least three of those guys don't FORCE their way on to the team by August, in the mid to long term, we are in BIG trouble beacause we don't have the talent in those guys we think/hope we have.

The team has, for better or worse, staked our future in the young arms on the farm.
jabonoso - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 12:35 PM EST (#103086) #
In "the Others" list you may put Lee Gronkiewicz, he had a solid winter in the pen in Puerto Rico. Actually the Syracuse pitching roster will be quite crowded. Nonetheless, i would hire Doug Linton as insurance for the same reasons Walker is back
Jordan - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 12:50 PM EST (#103090) #
Gaudin has one of the liveliest arms to come into the Jays' organization in quite a while -- some Tampa fans couldn't quite believe the Rays traded him for a commodity like Cash. If I were JP, I'd stash Gaudin in the Syracuse pen for a year and watch what he can do. I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year, we're raising his name in discussions of Toronto's 2006 closer.

Conversely, it wasn't that long ago that we were tossing around names like Pasqual Coco and Scott Cassidy as the best arms the high minors had to offer; the upper levels of the Jays' farm system have rarely been more promising. What's more, it could be even better next year, with Dustin McGowan fully recovered and David Purcey another step closer to the majors -- that's potentially two front-of-the-rotation arms right there. Good stuff.
Jim - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 01:13 PM EST (#103094) #
Can someone who knows this stuff better then I shed a little light?

Gaudin's addition to the Rays 40-man roster in 2003 leads me to believe that 2005 is his last option year? Is that correct?

Blue in SK - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 01:16 PM EST (#103095) #
Interesting that $9M is considered too expensive, given this off-season's signings. I personally believe that Vasquez is in a higher echelon of pitchers than those who received the standard $24M, 3 year deals this off-season. Perhaps JP has targeted Javier as one of those mid-season pickups.

Doc, Vasquez, Lilly, Batista, Bush - that's a pretty good starting 5.
Jonny German - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 01:48 PM EST (#103102) #

The team has, for better or worse, staked our future in the young arms on the farm.

Most definitely for better. Every good team is built up from the farm, even the most recent Yankees powerhouse - Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite, Rivera. If you can do it pitching-heavy, great - quality arms are more expensive than quality bats. What's more, Toronto is no longer a team lacking the financial resources to add the complementary pieces. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Interesting that $9M is considered too expensive [for Vazquez]

The thing is, Vazquez had a 4.91 ERA last year. I agree that the talent is there, but would you bet $36M and a bunch of prospects that it hasn't desserted him? (That's the total remaining on his contract... not sure how much of it the Yankees are paying, though it's been rumoured to be $9M).

And everybody, altogether now: Vazquez. Vazquez. Vazquez. There has never been a Major Leaguer with the last name Vasquez.

VBF - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:06 PM EST (#103109) #
Meanwhile, back at the Dome, scoreboards are being put up and the new Dome taking shape.

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=6667805&uid=2736549
Jonny German - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:06 PM EST (#103111) #
Deserted, even... this is gonna be rough, not being able to go back and correct my typos anymore...
Pistol - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:08 PM EST (#103112) #
Jordan - If Gaudin was in the Jays organization at the end of last season where would you have ranked him in the top 30 prospects? Around 10?
Ryan01 - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:18 PM EST (#103113) #
Jim, since Gaudin was never actually "optioned" in 2003, I believe he still has two option years left.

He wasn't added to the roster and called up until August of 2003 and remained with the team for the rest of the season. He was sent down to the minors that year but not before he was on the roster and thus it shouldn't have eaten up an option year.
Rob - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:28 PM EST (#103114) #
I'd like to see someone other than Josh Towers win the No. 5 spot. He's not even at the Michalak Line for strikeouts per nine innings, and has never had an ERA under 4.48. We all know what he's capable of, and if you ask me, I'd rather have Chacin in the rotation.

The Vazquez talk comes from this Friday article in the Star: GM J.P. Ricciardi is believed to be interested in adding starting pitching and Arizona reportedly wants to move Javier Vazquez's $9 million (U.S.) salary, but that may be too high for the Jays.

It's nothing more than saying "Toronto wants X" and Arizona has an X they might want to move." BBRRS = Skim Milk. (Someone should explain the Batter's Box Rumour Rating System in the FAQ.)

Jeff Blair also mentions Vazquez, but it's in passing: He doesn't have to move payroll to take on payroll and if, at the trade deadline, pitchers such as Ben Sheets, Javier Vazquez or A. J. Burnett become available through trades, the Blue Jays' minor-league depth and flexibility figures to make them players regardless of where they are in the standing.

Again, I doubt Vazquez will be a Blue Jay anytime this season or next.

There has never been a Major Leaguer with the last name Vasquez.

If you don't count Jorge or Rafael. :)

Ryan01 - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:31 PM EST (#103115) #
That's an interesting question Pistol, but if Gaudin qualifies as a prospect for Jordan's list then so do Bush, Adams, Quiroz, Gross, Crozier and maybe even Rios. That might knock Gaudin down to the mid to late teens. Which speaks more for the actually depth and quality of the system than Gaudin's talent
Rob - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:37 PM EST (#103116) #
since Gaudin was never actually "optioned" in 2003, I believe he still has two option years left.

Once he was added to the 40-Man Roster in 2003, it took up an option year. I refer to Mr. Neyer:

When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers.

However, Gaudin was added to the roster in his second year as a pro, so there may be some loophole I'm not aware of. As far as I know, Gaudin has one option year left: 2005.

Someone mentioned Justin Miller. He is not only out of options, but since he started the three-year countdown in 2001 (with Oakland), he was out of them last year.

jsoh - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 02:50 PM EST (#103118) #
Two things.

1. I'm desperately hoping for Spike Lundberg to make the team. I dont know diddly about him, but he's got a name to die for. Come on. Spike. Lundberg. Cant you just hear Murray Eldon announcing him? I'm picturing a Swedish Billy Idol type.

Tickets for the Spike Lundberg bandwagon are on sale at the door.

2. I've got mixed feelings about the 5th pitcher's spot. On the one hand, Towers has been underrated IMHO. People keep on saying that he doesnt throw hard enough, he's around the plate too much, he gets beat like a gong too often. And yet. He still grabs the ball, and has a decent start more often then not.

It's not like he was the second coming of Hentgen out there.

On the other hand, Towers probably isnt going to be a part of the Next Pennant Winning Jay Team(tm). Neither is Glynn. Chacin has that chance, and given the way that he put it all together last year, he may actually be a valuable commodity. The rest of the young turks in the system (McGowan, Banks, Marcum, Rosario, League) are going to be breathing down his neck pretty shortly, and if Chacin doesnt show anything this year, he may not get the chance next.

Unless (or hell, even if) Chacin blows the doors off in Spring Training, I'd like to see him open up the year in Syracuse to get 5-7 starts in AAA. If he looks like the real-deal, bring him up in May/June.
Rob - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 03:04 PM EST (#103119) #
With nothing to do at the moment, I checked the option year status of the current 40-man roster. Greg Myers is not included, but he ran out of options about ten years ago.

Out of options:
Pitchers (10) - Batista, Glynn, Halladay, Koch, Ligtenberg, Lilly, Miller, Schoeneweis, Speier, Towers.
Catchers (1) - Zaun (and Myers).
Infielders (6) - Hillenbrand, Hinske, Hudson, Koskie, McDonald, Menechino.
Outfielders (2) - Catalanotto, Wells.

The following players will be out of options in 2006:
Chulk, Gaudin, Rosario; Quiroz; Johnson, Rios.
Jordan - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 03:07 PM EST (#103120) #
It's a little tough to rank Gaudin within the Jays' system, because the Jays haven't treated any of their prospects as badly as the Rays treated Gaudin. Tampa allowed Gaudin to throw 119 innings in Low-A as a 19-year-old fresh out of high school. They promoted him at 20 to High-A, where he started 14 games, then had him throw 19 innings at Double-A, including a perfect game. So the Rays, naturally, brought him up to the majors. Crazy.

With only 19 innings in Double-A and 43 in Triple-A, Gaudin's stats profile doesn't match any other Toronto prospect who's seen the majors (even Brandon League had 104 AA innings and a lot of A-Ball time before his promotion). Gaudin throws in the low 90s with a sharp, tight slider that he probably likes to throw too much. He's been working on a change for awhile, and his success in mastering that will probably determine whether he'll start or relieve long-term. Scouts aren't real high on him because of his size (5'10" on a good day, and 185 pounds) and his raw repertoire. But he's a bulldog mentally -- intense, enthusiastic, and with something of a chip on his shoulder because of the chronic downgrading caused by his stature (he was a 34th-rounder). His coaches have had nothing but good things to say about him -- he impressed Lou Piniella, and that's saying something.

At this stage, he reminds me a little of both Billy Koch and Brandon League, because of his age, attitude and delivery, but without the raw stuff of either. His major-league splts show him far more effective in relief, and (unsurprisingly) better against righties. In terms of the Top 30, I'll tell you who I like better among Jays' pitching prospects: League, Rosario, McGowan, Banks, probably Chacin, and maybe Marcum. He debuted in the majors at 20 and held his own there, and he should get better with age and good coaching.
Jonny German - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 03:16 PM EST (#103122) #
If you don't count Jorge or Rafael.

D'oh! Uh, I wasn't counting them because they've only played 11 games between them... yeah, that's the ticket...
Dan - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 03:18 PM EST (#103123) #
I can't remember the last time the jays had so many reasonable options for closer. In my opinion Frasor can’t be forgotten, he looked really good last year. I’m not sure if the league started to figure him out near the end, or if he simply hit the rookie wall after his AA jump. I still think he needs to be considered in the mix with Speier and League. He just seemed to have the proper composure and command for the job.

Another reliever that can’t be ruled out is Koch. He may have struggled last year but he’s not too far removed from being a big money closer. This man was traded for Foulke!

The bullpen competition should be interesting this year.
Ryan01 - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 03:19 PM EST (#103124) #

Rob, there's also this tidbit from Neyer:

When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment."

Gaudin was never in that situation. He was in the minors the same year he was added, but he was not on the roster while he was in the minors. There are a lot of "loopholes" in the transaction rules that aren't really covered in the Transaction Primer, and I'm (though not positive) fairly sure this is one of them. I believe Brandon Lyon was in the same situation last year. The D-backs were able to option him even though he had parts of three years in the majors already.

Further to your Justin Miller comment, not only is he still out of options but since he was outrighted last year, he'll have the option of becoming a free agent if they try to outright him again.

Pistol - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 03:22 PM EST (#103126) #
"That's an interesting question Pistol, but if Gaudin qualifies as a prospect for Jordan's list then so do Bush, Adams, Quiroz, Gross, Crozier and maybe even Rios. That might knock Gaudin down to the mid to late teens."

I was more curious as to where he lined up more so than what number he might be.
Mick Doherty - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 04:30 PM EST (#103132) #
Tickets for the Spike Lundberg bandwagon are on sale at the door. Of course, you know that Spike is a registered mamber of Batter's Box and has stopped by Da Box for a Q&A after hooking on with TO. And good news for the Spike Bandwagon ... Ask Spike II is coming to Batter's Box in mid-week!

But "Spike Bandwagon"? That does sound a little bit like the stage name of the lead singer for an '90's hair metal group.

Mick Doherty - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 04:31 PM EST (#103133) #
Hmmm ... weird, I didn't include any italics in the comment at the end. But oh well, italic OFF.
Rob - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 04:32 PM EST (#103135) #
Hmm, good point. Gaudin was first placed on a 40-man roster on August 2, 2003. He wasn't optioned to the minors until the next season, so does that mean 2003 was not an optional assignment year? I guess it doesn't matter, as long as he can be optioned to Syracuse sometime between now and Opening Day, as he doesn't belong in the majors yet.

So, using that logic, Adams, League, Crozier and Chacin have all three of their option years left.

Why can Miller become a free agent? Is it because he would be out of options and it would be his second outright assignment?
jsoh - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 05:02 PM EST (#103136) #
I'm not sure how I forgot about the Spike Q&A. Thanks for pointing that out Mick.
jsoh - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 05:22 PM EST (#103138) #
This seems to be as good a place for some MYOR love..

Ken Rosenthal on the Jays

Jeff Blair's profile of Corey Koskie

Christopher - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 05:49 PM EST (#103139) #
Breaking news...hockey is still cancelled. Hopefully still good news for Jays attendance numbers. I do potentially forsee more "Go Leaf Go" chants at Rogers Centre though. The site looks great.
C. Oliver - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 05:53 PM EST (#103140) #
I still think there is a place on the Jays for Josh Towers. Hopefully, he can earn the 5th starting spot and run with it!

Memories of his outstanding 2003 second-half remain...
Ron - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 05:59 PM EST (#103141) #
I hope the Jays try to aquire Ben Sheets if the Brewers can't afford to keep him. Although I'm sure the Brewers will ask for the moon and I would like to think their new owner would keep the teams best player.

I'm drooling at the thought of Doc and Sheets at the top of the rotation.
Christopher - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 06:01 PM EST (#103143) #
I have a feeling that the Brewers are going to lock him up long-term. The timing just seems to be right with some of their minor league talent approaching the majors.
Mick Doherty - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 07:15 PM EST (#103145) #
This seems to be as good a place for some MYOR love..

Actually, jsoh, though we didn't say so explicitly in the press release, there are no more plans for a "MYOR" linkfest-type thread. We're stretching the site to see if we can't provide more exclusively original content. Of course, linking to intereesting stuff will still be encouraged, since that takes advantage of the technology of the medium, but we'd like to see, where possible, some intro or analysis.

Just for instance, in this case, rather than just the link, make the link text the headline, " Blue Jays are ready to ante up in A.L. East," which provides a little bit of a tease to the story, and let us know why you think it's interesting and worth reading -- "Rosenthal's explanation of how Toronto's trouble attracting big name free agents will actually turn out to be a good thing for the club in the long run is a new take on something we've complained about here in the past."

Just a thought.

King Ryan - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 08:00 PM EST (#103146) #
Wait a sec.

No more Jays Roundup? What about Hijack Central? QOTD?

Wanting to be classy is fine and all, but what about the fun?
Dave Till - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 08:10 PM EST (#103147) #
I saw Gibbons being interviewed on TV a couple of days ago, and he said that Towers has the inside track on the #5 slot, and Speier is currently pencilled in as the closer.

Towers can be useful if spotted correctly. His strength is that he throws strikes; his weakness is that he sometimes throws very hittable strikes. If the opponents don't have a lot of power or play in a large park, Towers can be quite effective; after all, he has won 17 games in the last two years.

For now, I like the idea of starting the season with him in the rotation. If one of the young pitchers gets to be real good, you can always trade Towers later to make room.
Tenobia - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 09:04 PM EST (#103150) #
Hopefully this is nothing serious, but I heard on CFTO news tonight that Ted Lilly won't be pitching during the first week of spring training because of soreness in his left shoulder.
Named For Hank - Saturday, February 19 2005 @ 09:21 PM EST (#103152) #
Wait a sec. No more Jays Roundup? What about Hijack Central? QOTD?

Ryan -- there will be similar things, just done differently. Instead of a roundup where all we do is link to other reports of last night's game, we'll be having our own, original writeups. Hijack centrals and QOTDs will also be back in some mutated form. The list of topics to the left is not yet complete.

Don't worry.

brent - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 06:06 AM EST (#103158) #
That is exactly the point, you have to wait for your farm system to put it together. The team already has a few pieces, but how to get the secondary level of players that are homegrown and to get the right free-agent?
brent - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 06:10 AM EST (#103159) #
I hope the Jays try to aquire Ben Sheets if the Brewers can't afford to keep him. Although I'm sure the Brewers will ask for the moon and I would like to think their new owner would keep the teams best player.

I was hoping the Jays were going to get Sheets instead of Batista a year ago. My friend then told me about Batista and I thought he would do alright. There are lots of Sheets type players out there, it is just finding them at the right time where it works out to make a deal.
Chuck - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 09:37 AM EST (#103160) #
There are lots of Sheets type players out there, it is just finding them at the right time where it works out to make a deal.

With all due respect, I'm not sure how true that is. Ignoring the attention he got due to his pedigree (which caused him to never entirely be under the radar), he showed excellent control (1.75 BB/9) and a terrific K/BB ratio (3.65) in the year before his breakout year. His 2003 numbers were a sign of things to come, though admittedly not to the degree he showed in 2004 (1.2 BB/9, 10.0 K/9, 8.25 K/BB).

I'm not sure there are many on-the-cusp pitchers with ratios of 3.65 K/BB and 1.75 BB/9.

MondesiRules - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 10:24 AM EST (#103162) #
Just picked up this issue of Sports Weekly and noticed to my dismay, that the Jays are ranked 37th! What's up with that?
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 10:32 AM EST (#103163) #
Ranked 37th in what? I'm assuming it's not a baseball-only ranking. I'd hate to see the Jays ranked behind the Toledo Mud Hens.
VBF - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 11:15 AM EST (#103164) #
Well, i know we were ranked 26th by ESPN with the Pirates, Brewers and D-backs ahead of them.
Magpie - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 12:00 PM EST (#103165) #
There are lots of Sheets type players out there

Yes and no. His career high in wins is 12. His last winning season was his rookie year, when he went 11-10. There is no shortage of players with that type of resume. Stuff like that helps keep Sheets under the radar a little.

But... he was the second-best pitcher in the National League last year, and the guy who was the best pitcher in the league is now: a) 41 years old, and b:) in the American League. That would seem to make Sheets as good a pre-season pick as any for this year's Cy Young. His strikeout-walk numbers last year are... well, an awful lot like vintage Pedro Martinez. There are very very few players like this around.

Magpie - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 12:10 PM EST (#103166) #
To be fair, brent was really talking about Sheets prior to last year.

Sheets was a ballyhooed prospect (hey! how often do you get say "ballyhooed") and while it didn't happen in his case, he's the type of guy that teams sometimes get disillusioned with. After three seasons, he was 33-39 and his best ERA was 4.15; a dumb organization will sometimes say "What? You're NOT Tom Seaver? What good are ya?" and trade them for a 30 year old outfielder with a bright and shiny batting average...

You used to be able to count on the Brewers to be dumb, too. What went wrong?

Chuck - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 12:20 PM EST (#103167) #
To be fair, brent was really talking about Sheets prior to last year.

I understand that. I'm just saying that his 2003 peripherals (which I cited in my post) were excellent. They didn't necessarily portend his 2004 greatness but certainly spoke more to his ability than his then career W-L record and ERA. Only a very naive organization would allow such a young, inexpensive player to be cherry picked off their roster, even absent his "can't miss" label.

Magpie - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 12:32 PM EST (#103170) #
I understand that

I wasn't worried about that so much. :-) Really, it was clear that you understood brent meant pre-2004 Sheets. I thought I was the guy kind of overlooking it, and missing his point!

Whatever happened to the good old days, when players like Ryne Sandberg could just get tossed in to a trade. Like ballast...

Is organizational stupidity really vanishing from the earth?

I blame Billy Beane. What the heck...

Chuck - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 12:49 PM EST (#103172) #
Is organizational stupidity really vanishing from the earth?

Ben Sheets may serve as the test case.

MondesiRules - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:10 PM EST (#103178) #
Ranked 37th in the whole league.
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:15 PM EST (#103179) #
The Jays are ranked 37th overall in major league baseball? Out of 30 teams?

Or do you mean 27th. :)

That I can buy, but I think it's selling the Jays pretty short. That would mean there are only 3 teams worse than the Jays. I wonder which three they are. My guess would be the Rockies, the Nats, and the Pirates.

But that leaves out the Devil Rays, who have no starting pitching, and the Royals.

I don't think the Jays are a great team, but they're better than quite a few teams. Anywhere from 15th to 23rd overall would be reasonable. 27th isn't, IMO.
Rob - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:27 PM EST (#103180) #
Anywhere from 15th to 23rd overall would be reasonable.

This preseason ranking list from USA Today Sports Weekly puts the Jays 28th, ahead of only the D-Rays and Royals.

That can't be right.
VBF - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:39 PM EST (#103183) #
I think how the teams faired in the off-season influenced the ranking.

Theres no possible way that if the Jays stay healthy they'll be 28th in the league.

It's reasonable to think that a 28th ranked team would win 60-65 games and if the Jays stay healthy, this won't happen. It's more reasonable to expect 74-81 wins from this team.
Mick Doherty - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:51 PM EST (#103184) #
I have Sports Weekly right here ... let's see ... Toronto ...
28th in MLB
12th in AL
4th in AL East
Meh.
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:52 PM EST (#103185) #
This preseason ranking list from USA Today Sports Weekly puts the Jays 28th, ahead of only the D-Rays and Royals.

No one is ever going to agree with a ranking list, and for me, this list is no exception.

They have the Marlins as the 5th best team in baseball?!? Ahead of the Braves (7th) and the Mets (9th)?

I'll admit that Delgado is really going to help their line-up, but they don't strike me as being that good. Better than the Twins? The A's? The Dodgers?

They have the D-Backs at 21st, and I just don't see them being that good. Sure they added some talent, but they were absolutely miserable last year and they just lost Randy Johnson.

How are the Rockies not one of the 3 worst teams in baseball?

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 02:57 PM EST (#103187) #
I have Sports Weekly right here ... let's see ... Toronto ... 28th in MLB 12th in AL 4th in AL East

So the 3 worst teams in baseball are all in the AL, and 2 of the 3 worst teams in baseball are in the AL East?

I think the strength of the AL East is overrated, but how does not one of the Rockies, D-Backs, Nats, Brewers, and Pirates make the bottom 3?

Okay, I've beaten this horse to death now. But you get my point. :)

MondesiRules - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 03:13 PM EST (#103188) #
Ok me a dumb dumb. "Power ranked 27th in the league"
MondesiRules - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 03:15 PM EST (#103189) #
Geez, I need some sleep. The others are right, power ranked 28th.
MondesiRules - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 03:17 PM EST (#103190) #
Sorry for all the posts, but considering Sports Weekly has Koch/Frasor in the closer's role, Cat splitting time with Rios in RF and Reed fulltime in LF, they are definately out to lunch.
MondesiRules - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 03:23 PM EST (#103192) #
One more post. Digital downloads now has the 92 and 93 full-last games of the World Series for 4$ US a pop. Great to add to anyone's "digital" collection.
Rob - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 07:30 PM EST (#103211) #
I heard on CFTO news tonight that Ted Lilly won't be pitching during the first week of spring training

Yep. Lilly's got shoulder tendinitis, he'll be out for the first week. In the Fordin story, J.P. says something...interesting:
The latest injury, however temporary it may be, underlined something Gibbons said on Friday. The Jays are planning to carry 12 pitchers -- largely so they can establish set usage patterns and keep everyone healthy.

"We'd take 15, if we could," said Ricciardi on Saturday. "The way the team sets up, we don't really need extra players. Most of that is taken care of, so we can use the extra arms to get through a tough April."
He can't be serious. 15 pitchers? Even Tony LaRussa doesn't carry fifteen. It must have been a throwaway quote while he was joking around. Please tell me it was a joke.
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 07:34 PM EST (#103212) #
The way the team sets up, we don't really need extra players

J.P. and I obviously have very different opinions on the bats the team is carrying and the value of pinch hitters and defensive replacements.

Mike Green - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 08:08 PM EST (#103215) #
I would take that as a hyperbolic comment.

Pepper and I have both advocated the 10-11 man staff, and it looks like neither of us is budging, but more importantly, it seems quite clear that the Jays will be going with a 12 man staff again this year. Oh well.
Ryan B. - Sunday, February 20 2005 @ 11:52 PM EST (#103234) #
Do you think the rotation will look the same come August 1st? I'm betting J.P gets a young stud like Ben Sheets or Barry Zito. I might be dreaming, but damn it I can!
Mick Doherty - Monday, February 21 2005 @ 12:08 AM EST (#103235) #
The <i>Fort Worth Star-Telegram</i> reports that the Tigers want to package Ugueth Urbina with either Bobby Higginson or Ron-DL White for, you guessed it, pitching.
<p>
Any interest out there in maybe offering up Batista and a prospect and seing if the the Motory City Kitties would bite? You get your old school Proven Closer and a former All-Star bat -- either Higgy or White -- for the middle of the lineup, presumably.
Magpie - Monday, February 21 2005 @ 12:23 AM EST (#103237) #
I'm betting J.P gets a young stud like Ben Sheets or Barry Zito. I may be dreaming...

As the audience shouted back to Martin Luther King that August day in Washington, "Dream some more, baby!" Because it's one beautiful dream.

The deal with Sheets - he has just under four years service time. So Milwaukee controls his rights all the way through to the end of 2007. He was already an arbitration-eligible guy last off-season (I assume he was a super-two after 2003), so he's already earning some Real Money (as opposed to the Unreal Money that RJ gets, and the regular Plenty Money most young players get.)

Even if the Brewers can't lock him up long-term, they're not likely to even consider moving him until winter 2006-2007. Unless they get fall and hit their heads on something really really hard and are struck suddenly stupid.

Zito - well, I believe in Zito more than most people. Still, Beane's going to want to make sure his other young pitchers are delivering the goods before he contemplates moving him.

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