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This is getting tiresome.

No, not the losing. Not even the failure to mount anything resembling an offense, although those things are indeed very tiresome as well.

Tonight it was Voldemort himself, Esteban Loaiza. Not only did he throw six shutout innings, he lined a two run double to give himself all the run support he would need. (In view of how little offense the Nationals have given The Dark Lord this year, one has to regard this as a wise precaution.)

Didn't Roger Clemens limit our boys to one run over 7 IP about two weeks ago? And then, mere days later, didn't Chris Carpenter throw a one-hit shutout in our faces, striking out 10, facing just two over the minimum?

These were our guys. We cheered for them once, we hoped with all our heart that they would Do Well.

Now would be a good time to Stop, fellas.

Oh well. At least we kicked the crap out of Doug Davis.

Anyway, tonight's game made me think of the events of the last two weeks - the Carpenter and Clemens games. And that made me think - how have former Jays performed when facing the Blue Jays. So I went and gathered the data and I'm going to pass it along to you.

I'm only interested in what they did against Toronto after they had played here, after we had invested our hopes and dreams and mojo in them. Roger Clemens, from 1984 through 1996, was just an Evil Guy on another team. But since 1999, he has been one of our own who has Fallen from Grace and joined the Dark Side. What's he done with it? Plenty, as it happens.

The former Jay who pitched most often against Toronto was David Cone - most starts (23), innings (147.2), and wins (9). Cone did have a lengthy career as a former Jay. Clemens has made barely half as many starts against the Blue Jays since leaving town. That hasn't stopped him from winning just one fewer game than Cone - the Rocket is 8-2 against Toronto, and if Brad Lidge hadn't blown a three run lead this month, Clemens would have caught up to Cone.

They were our boys, but they became Yankees. They joined the Evil Empire. Not all of them used the force effectively against the Blue Jays. David Wells is 4-8, 5.78 against Toronto since leaving town.

But if we were to pick one former Jay as the man who actually pitched most effectively against his former mates, it would be... Mark Eichhorn? Mark! What did we do to deserve this? When your arm went bad, we nurtured you. We taught you to throw sidearm. True, when you slumped in 1988, we sent you to the minors. And sold you to Atlanta. But still... 6-1, 1.72? That's harsh.

Tom Henke and Billy Koch have both saved 6 games against the Blue Jays, which is more than anyone else. We have had some measure of satisfaction. The Jays managed to hang a couple of losses on the Terminator. And as for Billy Koch - well, the Jays did beat his brains in a time or two, and left him an 11.32 ERA.

It took a while before a former Blue Jays was able to record a win against his old team. Think about it. There weren't any former Blue Jays in 1977 - well, not at first. Steve Hargan pitched briefly with the Jays, and then moved on to Texas. He faced the Jays on May 21 1977, and it didn't go well. Fairly walked, Ault singled, Ashby homered, and Torres tripled. With three runs in, they gave him the hook rather than see if he could allow the cycle. It was Hargan's only appearance against Toronto - the Rangers sold him to Atlanta three weeks later. The Braves released him at the end of the season, and he called it a career.

The first former Toronto pitcher to come back and beat the Blue Jays was Tom Underwood on June 1, 1980 at Yankee Stadium. Paul Mirabella, who would one day become an ex-Jay himself took the 11-5 loss. Underwood picked up a second win against Toronto later that year, working 3 innings of scoreless relief. This game began on a Wednesday evening in September. It was suspended in the top of the 10th when it started raining in New York, just after the Jays had scored two runs to take a 5-3 lead. They resumed the next day, and Lloyd Moseby added a two-run inside the park home run to make the score 7-3. Bobby Mattick sent Dave Stieb out to pitch the 10th. (Luis Leal would start and win the game actually scheduled later that day - he tossed a CG two-hitter, in fact.) Anyway, Stieb promptly gave up four runs in the bottom of the 10th to tie it up again. So the game went on a little longer, with Jack Kucek pitching for the Jays and Underwood coming on for the Yankees, who finally won it in 13.

None of you will possibly guess the first former Blue Jay to come back and throw a CG shutout at his former team.

It was Luis Aquino.

Aquino made 7 relief appearances for the Blue Jays in 1986, and was traded to Kansas City for Juan Beniquez a year later. The Royals called him up in August 1988, and he made the second start of his ML career on the 14th of August against the Jays. He shut them down on 6 hits. Aquino went on to give the Royals several useful seasons as a swing man.

The second former Blue Jay to come back and throw a shutout was... Chris Carpenter. Yes, there have been only two.

There haven't even been very many CG victories by former Jays. Neither Cone nor Clemens ever went the distance to defeat their former team. Tommy Underwood did - he was actually the first, on September 29 1981. Underwood was with Oakland by then. He was followed soon enough by Pete Vuckovich (August 13, 1982) and Ken Schrom (September 15 1983, for Minnesota). Aquino's 1988 shutout was the fourth complete game. John Cerutti spent one year, 1991, as a former Jay. He worked mostly out of the Detroit bullpen, but he did start 8 games, and one of them was against Toronto on August 6, 1991. The Jays got to him for two first inning runs - Cerutti shut them down the rest of the way. But Jimmy Key and three relievers held the Tigers to just one run. Cerutti is the only former Jay to pitch a complete game against the old team and take the loss.

Jimmy Key himself became a former Jay in 1993 - he returned to SkyDome in June and won 4-3, and beat the Jays again at Yankee Stadium, going the distance in a 5-4 victory. That was the last CG against Toronto by a former Jay until last May, when Voldemort came back to the SkyDome and pitched the White Sox to a 5-2 win. Chris Carpenter's game was the second shutout and eighth complete game.

Roger Clemens may have never pitched a shutout or a complete game against the Jays since leaving Toronto. (Of course, before he got here, he was 15-10 against the Jays with 5 CG and 1 SHO.) However, Clemens did have the biggest single season against his old mates - he started 5 times against the Jays in 2001, and went 4-0, 3.86 in 32.2 IP. Pete Vuckovich (1982), Ken Schrom (1983), and David Wells (1997) also beat the Jays three times in a season. Somewhat surprisingly, so did Mark Eichhorn (1994) and Mike Timlin (2003). The Jays have never hung 3 losses on an old team mate, although they've beaten lots and lots of guys twice.

OK, today's Rows of Numbers. These are just the career records against Toronto of former Blue Jays, and again I point out that this only includes what they did against the Jays after leaving Toronto. We don't care about Mike Flanagan's many, many victories over the Blue Jays before 1987 (he was 17-7 with 4 shutouts) - we only care about his work as an old LOOGY in 1991 and 1992.

As you can see, Mike Timlin has pitched the most games against the Blue Jays since leaving us in 1997 - the most outings in a single season were the 11 appearances by Paul Quantrill last year.

I've just arranged them by career innings pitched.

		    G  GS  CG  SHO  GF  W  L  SV   IP    H  BFP  HR  R  ER  BB  SO   ERA

David Cone	   23  23   0    0   0  9  7   0 147.2   38 619  21 65  61  46 135  3.73
David Wells	   16  16   0    0   0  4  8   0 104.3  126 454   6 69  67  23  80  5.78
Roger Clemens	   12  12   0    0   0  8  2   0  77.0   72 324   7 32  31  29  76  3.62
Tom Underwood	   21   9   1    0   3  5  3   0  74.3   62 317   8 42  31  34  57  3.75
Jimmy Key	   10  10   1    0   0  5  3   0  61.0   57 251   8 31  30  21  37  4.43
Doyle Alexander	    8   8   0    0   0  2  3   0  57.7   57 245   6 26  23  18  22  3.59
Ken Schrom	   12   9   1    0   1  4  4   0  56.3   68 253  10 28  27  20  23  4.31
Juan Berenguer	   22   4   0    0   8  3  1   0  53.0   42 225   8 25  18  25  56  3.06
Pete Vuckovich	    8   8   1    0   0  3  2   0  47.0   55 217   4 28  25  25  23  4.79
Esteban Loaiza	    8   7   1    0   0  4  2   0  45.0   50 195   5 25  24  16  23  4.80
Dennis Lamp	   22   0   0    0   6  3  4   0  42.0   48 188   6 33  27  16  23  5.79
Mike Timlin	   36   0   0    0  10  5  4   1  42.0   41 174   3 17  16   8  42  3.43
Frank Castillo	    7   7   0    0   0  2  4   0  37.3   42 161   4 29  26  12  37  6.27
Mike Morgan	    8   6   0    0   0  2  4   0  37.3   50 174   4 30  27  13  17  6.51
Luis Aquino	   11   3   1    1   4  3  2   0  36.3   33 153   4 13  12  13  14  2.97
Willie Blair	    6   5   0    0   0  2  3   0  35.3   42 155   5 26  24   9  18  6.11
Paul Mirabella	   17   0   0    0   5  1  1   0  33.7   31 138   3 20  14  11  18  3.74
Mark Eichhorn	   20   0   0    0   9  6  1   2  31.3   25 124   0  8   6   8  26  1.72
Mark Hendrickson    4   4   0    0   0  1  2   0  23.7   30 105   1 19   9   3  12  3.42
John Cerutti	    5   2   1    0   1  1  1   0  22.7   17  88   1  6   6   3  10  2.38
Tom Filer	    4   4   0    0   0  2  1   0  22.0   25  95   2 14  14   8   5  5.73
Pat Hentgen	    4   3   0    0   0  1  2   0  21.7   21  91   4 14  13   6  11  5.40
Omar Daal	    5   4   0    0   0  1  2   0  21.3   28 100   2 17  15   9   7  6.33
Doug Linton	    5   3   0    0   0  0  1   0  20.7   24  89   2 11  11   8  10  4.79
Tom Candiotti	    3   3   0    0   0  1  1   0  18.7   19  79   2  8   8   6   8  3.86
Al Leiter	    3   3   0    0   0  2  1   0  18.7   16  79   1  6   6  11  16  2.89
Juan Guzman	    3   3   0    0   0  0  2   0  16.3   19  77   5 16  12   8  18  6.61
Bryan Clark	   10   2   0    0   2  1  1   0  16.3   13  68   2 10  10  11   6  5.51
Kelvim Escobar	    2   2   0    0   0  1  1   0  13.3   10  53   0  3   3   4  21  2.03
Paul Quantrill	   15   0   0    0   4  0  0   0  13.0   18  61   0  6   6   4   6  4.15
Todd Stottlemyre    2   2   0    0   0  2  0   0  12.7   12  58   2  6   5   7  18  3.55
Tim Crabtree	   13   0   0    0   7  0  0   0  12.3   11  50   1  5   5   4  10  3.65
Victor Cruz	    6   0   0    0   6  0  0   2  11.3    9  44   0  2   2   3  12  1.59
Mike Flanagan	    7   0   0    0   3  0  0   1  10.3    9  44   1  1   1   4   4  0.87
Tom Henke	    9   0   0    0   9  0  2   6  10.3   11  44   1  4   4   2  11  3.48
Dale Murray	    4   0   0    0   3  0  1   0  10.3   14  51   0  9   6   4   6  5.23
Billy Koch	   12   0   0    0  10  0  0   6  10.3   10  51   2 13  13   8  11 11.32
Tony Castillo	    8   0   0    0   3  1  0   0  10.0   13  50   1  5   3   8   8  2.70
Aaron Small	    7   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   9.7   18  49   0  8   8   3  10  7.45
Dave Geisel	    5   0   0    0   2  0  0   0   9.3   14  47   0  8   7   4  11  6.75
Brandon Lyon	    7   0   0    0   4  1  0   0   9.0    8  38   1  5   1   2   9  1.00
Chris Carpenter	    1   1   1    1   0  1  0   0   9.0    1  28   0  0   0   1  10  0.00
Felix Heredia	   10   0   0    0   2  0  0   0   8.3   11  35   1  2   2   1   4  2.16
Steve Trachsel	    1   1   0    0   0  1  0   0   8.0    4  28   0  0   0   1   5  0.00
Woody Williams	    1   1   0    0   0  0  0   0   8.0    1  25   0  0   0   1   5  1.13
Carlos Almanzar	    6   0   0    0   2  0  0   0   7.3   10  33   2  5   5   2   7  6.14
Ryan Glynn	    1   1   0    0   0  0  1   0   7.0    6  28   1  3   3   2   6  3.86
Jesse Jefferson	    4   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   6.7    7  30   1  4   4   3   3  5.40
Dave Stewart	    2   2   0    0   0  0  1   0   6.7   12  40   0 10   8   7   5 10.80
Edwin Hurtado	    2   0   0    0   1  0  1   0   6.7    9  33   2  9   9   4   3 12.15
Tanyon Sturtze	    3   0   0    0   2  1  0   1   6.3    3  21   0  2   2   1   6  2.84
Xavier Hernandez    6   0   0    0   2  0  0   0   6.3   10  34   1  6   4   4   5  5.68
Bob MacDonald	    7   0   0    0   3  0  1   1   6.3    3  25   0  2   2   3   6  2.84
Jack Morris	    1   1   0    0   0  0  0   0   6.0    9  29   1  4   4   3   5  6.00
Graeme Lloyd	    6   0   0    0   0  1  1   0   6.0    4  25   1  2   2   2   3  3.00
Paul Menhart	    1   1   0    0   0  0  1   0   6.0    7  26   1  3   3   3   3  4.50
Bud Black	    1   1   0    0   0  0  0   0   6.0    2  21   0  0   0   1   7  0.00
John Bale	    3   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   5.3    3  22   0  2   2   3   4  3.37
Trever Miller	    9   0   0    0   2  0  0   0   5.3    7  22   0  2   2   1   5  3.38
Paul Spoljaric	    4   0   0    0   1  1  0   0   5.0    8  25   1  5   5   4   6  9.00
Gary Glover	    3   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   4.7    7  22   1  4   4   1   4  7.71
Robert Person	    2   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   4.7    1  19   0  3   3   3   4  5.79
Mark Guthrie	    5   0   0    0   1  1  1   0   4.3    7  23   2  5   5   3   3 10.38
Don Gordon	    4   0   0    0   3  0  1   0   4.3    4  22   0  2   1   3   2  2.08
Danny Darwin	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   4.3    4  17   2  3   3   0   7  6.23
Greg Cadaret	    7   0   0    0   2  0  0   1   3.7    1  16   0  1   1   2   6  2.45
Joey McLaughlin	    1   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   3.0    2  12   1  2   2   1   4  6.00
Dane Johnson	    2   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   3.0    3  14   0  0   0   2   3  0.00
Joey Hamilton	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   3.0    5  14   1  3   3   0   2  9.00
Vince Horsman	    4   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   2.3    3  15   1  3   3   4   1 11.57
Darwin Cubillan	    3   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   2.0    6  14   0  3   3   2   1 13.50
Paul Kilgus	    3   0   0    0   0  0  1   0   1.7    5  14   0  4   4   4   1 21.60
Stan Clarke	    2   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   1.7    1   6   1  1   1   0   1  5.40
Doug Davis	    1   1   0    0   0  0  1   0   1.7    8  14   0  7   7   1   3 37.80
Steve Davis	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   1.3    4   8   0  3   3   0   1 20.25
Terry Adams	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   1.3    4   9   0  4   4   1   2 27.00
Tom Davey	    2   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   1.3    3   9   0  2   2   1   2 13.50
Cliff Politte	    3   0   0    0   1  0  1   0   1.3    1   6   0  1   1   1   1  6.75
Dave Weathers	    1   0   0    0   1  0  0   0   1.0    0   3   0  0   0   0   1  0.00
Jim Acker	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   1.0    3   7   1  2   1   0   1  9.00
Scott Service	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   0.7    1   4   1  2   2   1   0 27.00
Steve Sinclair	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   0.3    0   1   0  0   0   0   1  0.00
Giovanni Carrara    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   0.3    1   2   0  0   0   0   0  0.00
Steve Hargan	    1   0   0    0   0  0  0   0   0.0    3   4   1  3   3   1   0 Infinity
Don't you just love that last one? The very first ex-Blue Jay pitching against Toronto.
Game 74 - Used to be One of Us | 16 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
groove - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#120643) #
Nice chart!

How many hits did Woody Williams allow? (I don't think it was 25)



Pistol - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#120647) #
I'm more troubled by the Jays inability to score runs against bad pitchers. Here's a list of starting pitchers who held the Jays to 2 or fewer runs this year:

Ryan Drese
Carl Pavano
Erik Bedard (2)
Sidney Ponson
Kevin Millwood (although that was a rain delayed game...it was mostly the Tribe bullpen)
Kyle Lohse
Joe Mays
Tomo Ohka
Johan Santana
Gil Meche
Joe Blanton
Segrio Mitre
Wandy Rodriguez
Roy Oswalt
Cris Carpenter
Ben Sheets
Chris Capuano
Estaban Loaiza

I count 19 times out of 74 games (26%) that the Jays have scored fewer than 2 runs in a game.

There's a few top pitchers in there, and you're going to have games where the bats are cold for one reason or another, but that seems like way too low scoring games for the pitchers the Jays have faced.
Wildrose - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#120655) #
Here's Jeff Blair's take on the trade deadline for the Home Side. I note Wells/Hudson are not "untouchable".
Matthew E - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#120656) #
Didn't Ken Schrom have one year in which he beat the Jays three or four times, and Dave Stieb was the losing pitcher in all the games?

That must have been annoying.
Magpie - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#120659) #
I fixed Woody's line - the 25 was batters faced. He gave up one hit.

And Matthew's memory astounds us all. Schrom beat the Jays three times in 1983, and Dave Stieb took the loss each time. Twice in June, and once in September.

Wildrose - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#120662) #
Looking at Magpie's list it's hard to say who has the advantage, the former pitcher facing his old team, or the hitters facing an old teamate? By way of casual observation, catchers seem to hit their old battery mates quite well, but it really doesn't seem to carry over to the other hitters.

I note that the news is positive for Canadian Eric Gagne in regards to his recent elbow surgery. It's hard to imagine however, the Dodgers letting him pitch for Canada this spring.

Pistol - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#120664) #
I note Wells/Hudson are not "untouchable".

The only player on the Jays that should be untouchable is Halladay. I can't imagine any trade scenario that would interest the Jays.

There's a lot of players that would be very unlikely to be traded (Aaron Hill for one), but I wouldn't call anyone else on the team untouchable.

Fawaz - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#120667) #
Here's what NL pitchers have done to the Jays so far (7 road games): .385/.429/.538 with 4 rbi (3 with 2 outs). Just based on what I saw, the hits were hardly cheapies. I really hope Lilly pays attention to Hernandez tonight, he can take it out of the park.
Wildrose - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#120668) #
I agree Pistol, but Blair in the story describes, Halladay, Rios, Adams and Hill as "not going anywhere".

A few years ago I didn't think the Jays would ever think of trading Vernon Wells or Halladay, that apparently, with Vernon is no longer the case.
Wildrose - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#120669) #
Here's the line on Koyie Hill .
NDG - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#120670) #
Here's what NL pitchers have done to the Jays so far (7 road games): .385/.429/.538 with 4 rbi (3 with 2 outs).

Good research Fawaz, I thought the Jays seemed to be giving a lot of hits to pitchers, it's good to know I wasn't dreaming it.

I wonder if the Jays pitchers just expect the other pitchers to miss everything and just keep throwing fastballs down the middle? It doesn't help that Jays pitchers are 0 for their last 38 or something.

Rob - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#120673) #
Lots of info on trading from the always-solid Jeff Blair. There's the "If someone was silly enough to offer a bopper plus, say, a No. 2 starter, they would get Wells" line, and then the following, which is the first I've heard of any interest in this player:

Ricciardi has money to play with, wants a middle-of-the-order bat, a pitcher and a catcher -- he likes Diamondbacks prospect Koyie Hill big time

Koyie Hill is 26, born one day after me, eight years earlier. He was a backup with Arizona until late-May, and since then he's put up a .275/.359/.420 (.267 GPA) line for Tuscon. Keep in mind the park factor there as of July 2004 was 1102, according to BP. Although, I'm not sure if that's in relation to the rest of the PCL, and if so, if that makes it more of a hitter's park of less of one.

Anyway, Hill the catcher was Dodgers property until the Steve Finley trade at the deadline, so I'd imagine that's where J.P.'s familiarity comes from. Hill was about the same hitter last year with LA's AAA team in Las Vegas, just with more power and less on-base. If all he needs to do is improve his defense (inaccurate arm, below-average receiving skills), then what the hell, bring him over. In fact, check this out:

Player A: .115/.193/.135 (52 AB)
Player B: .212/.311/.231 (52 AB)

Koyie Hill has the same number of ABs this year as Ken Huckaby. You can figure out the rest.

Oh, and did I mention Hill is a switch-hitter?

Terran - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#120675) #
What happened to the Jays? At the beginning of the year they could sustain themselves on the theory that 9 good hitters could beat 1 excellent hitter, 2 great hitters, 2 good hitters, and a few bad hitters. For a time that worked but mostly because we did well in clutch hitting situations (especially with 2 outs).

Now we can consistantly get guys in scoring position with no one out and still not bring them home. Part of it may because, as it turns out, we're not 9 good hitters. We're maybe 4-5 good hitters and 4-5 bad hitters.
VBF - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#120678) #
I think the common difference with the Jays not being to hit bad pitchers lately is the fact that we're playing in NL parks with NL rules. Heck, if Huckaby bats in a NL park we basically have a lineup of 6 players which is ridiculous. That combined with the unfamiliarity of the Blue Jays in these parks certainly is a factor.

Lesson to be learned: Interleague screws things up.
Magpie - Saturday, June 25 2005 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#120682) #
We're maybe 4-5 good hitters and 4-5 bad hitters.

To be more precise: they've been getting good production from 3B and LF; average production from CF and DH; and poor production from C, 1B, 2B, SS, and RF.

It's not like no one saw this coming.

BallGuy - Sunday, June 26 2005 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#120691) #
I watched some of the Fox broadcast of the Red Sox/Phillies game and they talked about the Phillies needing more pitching. The announcers mentioned Ted Lilly as a possible solution and the Phils might offer up Ryan Howard ("many AL teams would be interested in this guy as a 1B/DH with power") in return. Howard is putting up good numbers in AAA with an OPS of 1189, 15 hr in 192 ab. Here are his current AAA numbers:

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ryan%20Howard&pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=429667


Game 74 - Used to be One of Us | 16 comments | Create New Account
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