Here's hoping for eight strong innings and a three-out save for Ligtenberg; wouldn't the Dallas Morning Snooze be morally obligated to run a "Bush, Kerry Topple Texas" headline?

Just got back from Vancouver(with no net access!!), glad to see a familiar site, and also glad to see some of the kids playing. While there i got to see such miracls ass Jays west coast games at 7pm. Also went to seattle where i caught 7 innings of the mariners/indians games and got to watch Coco Crisp make a great catch, to which my girlfriend said "thats the highlight of the night", which it ended up being on sportsnet. Fun trip, great weather, glad to be home.

Sweet. Delgado hits another dinger in this park, Zaun singles, and then a couple doubles score two more and it's tied at three.

Adams sure looks like a keeper. I think he has a hit in every game he's been in so far.

Reed scores Adams with a single, 4-3.

O-Dog smokes one off the wall and it's 5-3.

Where is everyone?

I am in the UK watching the game on my PC running around the room waving my hands in the air going YAY at the young jays whacking the ball about and scoring runs with 2 outs.

but thats just me

Football season starts today. :)

explains why the stadium in texas is almost empty

This game is not on TV in the Dallas/Fort Worth market. Agh. Cowboy-itis strikes!

Is the MLB.com site working for you guys? I keep refreshine but it still doesn't show any scores, it's still telling me none of today's games have started. It might be a problem with my connection, but I can get it fine on ESPN.com

My Gameday is working fine, Tassle.

I totally missed Tejera being claimed on waivers by the Rangers. I sure wouldn't have minded if the Jays gave him a shot as a lefty in the pen. I don't know if he has the stuff to get enough righties out as a starter but he can get lefties out with that curve and that would be nice to have in the pen right now.

That was one of the worst strike calls I've ever seen.

Ugh.

I sure hope Texas acknowledges home plate umpire Darren Spagnardi for the assist, should the Rangers win this one. That call was, in one word, piss-poor.

Candiotti makes a good point: Gibbons gets tossed for arguing balls and strikes, five minutes later Mench gets nothing for doing the same thing. Huh.

I think its time to STOP throwing first pitch "let's get ahead of him" fastballs to Teixeira with people on base.

Personally, I'd knock him down first.

Another question: What is the quarrel between hockey players and owners about? And why is everybody sure that there will be a strike/lockout? Will the players play in Europe then? I remember that Paul Coffey played in Germany for a few weeks during a strike/ lockout.

I'm busy watching football turn on Sportsnet see the Jays winning 6-5 and the first two batters I see goes double, and then a homer. Bam there goes the lead and the ball game.

Even as a huge Jays fan I'm not going to waste my time any more watching this sad sack club from the first to the last pitch. I'll just tune in here and there.

On a positve note it looks like Delgado will reach 30 homers.

Jays are doing better with every series. Getting closer to that elusive 4th draft position. Go Jays.

Another question: What is the quarrel between hockey players and owners about? And why is everybody sure that there will be a strike/lockout? Will the players play in Europe then? I remember that Paul Coffey played in Germany for a few weeks during a strike/ lockout.

The NHL's Collective Bargaining Agreement expires on September 15th. If there's no new CBA in place by then, then the players will be locked out. The lockout is basically inevitable because the players and owners have had several meetings and have made virtually no progress whatsoever towards a new CBA. Many players have already signed in Europe.

Thanks Ryan, what I don't get is why do the North American leagues need a CBA for. The players should get what the teams are willing to pay them end of line. Do you know if I can watch some players in Berlin? I think our team is run by the Anschütz group and they are also building a new stadium/arena so maybe they have some money to burn. What exactly is settled in a CBA and why can't they just play w/out one?

What is the quarrel between hockey players and owners about?

What are quarrels ever about? Money.

Certainly others around here know more about this issue than I, but let me give you my take (and, everyone, please correct me where I am wrong).

The owners allege that they are losing money, and that the very soon to be expired CBA is seriously harming their business. They are pushing for a salary cap, something the players' union wants no part of (the players have answered with a luxury tax, similar to that used in baseball to "punish" owners who overspend, but not to categorically prevent them from doing so). The union does not believe the owners' cries of poverty and is happy with the existing CBA.

Until such time as a new CBA is forged, the existing CBA would stay in effect. This would suit the players just fine, but not the owners, who are prepared to lock out the players in the absence of a new CBA.

Where the middle ground stands on the salary cap/no salary cap debate remains to be seen. Neither side is prepared to budge on this issue meaning that there is a huge gulf between their respspective positions. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, since one of the two sides is going to have to lose and any concessions made by the winner to allow the loser to save face are going to be pretty transparent. I can't help but think that the endgame has one side clearly winning and one side clearly losing, with little real middleground to make it win-win.

Many players have tentative contracts to play in Europe or, gasp, the WHA. Those of us old enough to remember the first WHA await the new incarnation with a smirk on our faces.

Thomas, I'll let Craig B. field that one. :)

So in the CBA there are questions like what kind of cap exists are settled. If the owners are loosing money they shouldn't give the playes so much money and long contracts. Don't whine about a cap. Right now, is there any Cap in hockey? Do you think the Jays will profit next April when there are no Leafs games? What do the owners gain when they don't have any income this year and a pissed-off fanbase for years to come. Which side is seen as the culprit. Greedy players or greedy owners? This is a hockey site, right. At least the Jays season in h*ll is much better than a no-show for the Leafs.

Right now, is there any Cap in hockey?

No.

Do you think the Jays will profit next April when there are no Leafs games?

Probably, but there's a very good chance the strike won't last that long.

Which side is seen as the culprit. Greedy players or greedy owners?

I'd say 9 times out of 10 any work stoppage is always seen as the fault of "greedy players". For whatever reason too many people believe the owners should be able to do whatever they want and the players should just be happy they're in the NHL.

Probably, but there's a very good chance the strike won't last that long.

So the owners will put a lockout in place and then around X-Mas accept some compromise and let half the teams reach the play-offs after half the season. Then every games counts more, more teams (even) have a chance to reach the ply-offs and in a play-off hunt the fans do'nt feel so bad about the lock-out. Owners wish-list?

the players should just be happy they're in the NHL

Well, they would stay in Europe if they could earn more here.

By the way I am sorry to ask all these hockey questions I find it interesting how sport leagues are constructed in Northern America. It's strange for me that you need a CBA to play but don't have any relegation/promotion. Imagine how many fans would show up at the Dome if they had to catch the Rays or they will play in AAA next year. Some football teams draw more fans when loosing then when they are doing ok because there is more at stake. Another frustrating loss today. It sucks when the Jays don't beat the Rangers once in a while and loose in such a heart-breaking way so many times. At least they keep it interesting and find new ways to loose a game.

I'm not convinced adams will hold up at Short.
His arm is very weak from the few games i've seen.

weak? or inaccurate?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=kruk/040910
COMN for John Kruk mentioning Delgado and Wells on his let down team.

Word is Delgado lost a lot of respect by turning down a trade to a contender and choosing to stay in Canada.

Word is Delgado lost a lot of respect by turning down a trade to a contender

Anyone's respect he lost over that wasn't worth having in the first place. A man signs a contract and honours it. He elects not to give up a right in the contract that he had earned. For that he gets grief? What nonsense.

Anyone's respect he lost over that wasn't worth having in the first place. A man signs a contract and honours it. He elects not to give up a right in the contract that he had earned. For that he gets grief? What nonsense.

* stands up and applauds

Well said.

plus, John Kruk has a very large axe to grind with the Jays still. Him and Dave Stewart should form a club (sorry, no Homer-s; we're allowed to have one).

I will admit I thought the bullpen would be good at the beginning of the season but as it stands now there's only one guy I wanna see back next season and that's Speier (who's not a closer).

But with JP's budget he can't afford to go out ang sign a Rivera/Wagner type. Although there are bargains out there like Mesa who signed for less than 1 mil.

This off-season I expect JP to do the same thing he's done before .... get Rule 5 draftees, waiver players, journeymen middle relivers,etc.. and hope for the best.

The Jays have way too many holes to fill and I doubt JP would spend big bucks on a bullpen.

I don't think it was that bad. In retrospect, based on Frasor's second half and Werth's full season with the dodgers, it looks miserable, but at the time it wasn't necessarily a bad idea.

Werth was behind Cat, Wells, and Johnson on the Jays' outfield depth chart. Gross and Rios were surely planned to be on the way. That made him essentially 6th on the overall Jays outfield plan, a spare part that wouldn't have been used until the injuries started. He was traded for Frasor, who provided some bullpen help which was the weakest part of the team.

Looking back at the reaction thread here, the basic reaction was "Frasor looks like nothing" and "Werth can't hit", and was a victim of Rios looking ready.

Now, you can question if Frasor was a good player to get for Werth, or if it was smart to leave Spring Training with three outfielders and Dave Berg / Chris Hermansen / Simon Pond as plan B. With Frasor already experiencing the Aquilino Lopez transformation, that's easy to do. But I think that it came from the fact that Werth wasn't in the Jays' plans, and the best thing for him was to get him outta town, in exchange for anything. It's not like his performance pointed to good things: 41 games, .234 average, etc.

I think Frasor might bounce back with less pressure and some coaching, and Werth wouldn't have helped the Jays anyways. Even if he had been a good injury sub this year, he'd still be stuck behind Gross / Wells / Rios next year. And the first half of the year would've been worse without Frasor there to close games out.

Even if he had been a good injury sub this year, he'd still be stuck behind Gross / Wells / Rios next year.

Gross hasn't given me any reason why he should be given a starting job in LF over Johnson.

But I wouldn't be suprised if this happened because Dave Berg was taking away AB's from Josh Phelps earlier in the year.

Ligtenberg, Adams and Speier had all had decent, if unspectacular, careers going. I'm not sure how Ricciardi was supposed to anticipate all of them suddenly having subpar seasons. If anyone around here had the prescience to know collapses were imminent, I'm presuming they've already sent in their CV's to the team's management.

Jayson Werth had shown very little in the minors, despite his toolsiness. While his 830 OPS in 200 AB has been a pleasant surprise for the Dodgers, it might be premature to anoint him as anything more than a 4th outfielder. After all, we are only talking about 200 AB.

While Frasor has certainly stunk of late, he was very good for a long stretch, particularly when the team had no other reliable relievers.

Although there are bargains out there like Mesa who signed for less than 1 mil.

I can imagine the backlash that would have been here if Jose Mesa had been signed last year. The two guys that were signed to the pen all had better numbers than a 37 year old with a 6.52ERA and terrible peripheral stats. His career ERA+ of 101 and last year's 63, which includes an astounding year in 1995 with a 411!!! (versus Speier 107; Ligtenberg 140) tells the tale.

Fozzy, I can only begin to imagine.

Then I cringe, and my mind goes blank. When I wake up later, I post this.

Gross hasn't given me any reason why he should be given a starting job in LF over Johnson.

Fair enough. But the point was, at the time, it was assumed that Rios and Gross would be able to produce late this year and all of next year. Gross' injury had not (to my recollection) happened, and so the very worst prediction was a Gross / Johnson team-up. And because of that, Werth would've been the Jays 4th / 5th OF this year, and their 5th outfielder next year.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2196
COMN for Werth's career record. Due to his defensive versatility (all three OF positions, catching, 1B), he has significant value going forwards, although it will almost be surely in a reserve role. I don't agree that he has as much value as Gross or especially Rios.

It is fair to criticize team management for not having an effective bench. Werth might indeed have been a useful part, in 20-20 hindsight and, for some, with foresight.

But, the bullpen situation this year is completely different from last year. Creek and Tam were not in the same class as Ligtenberg, Adams and Speier. This year's class of reliever acquisitions have been modestly above average pitchers over their career, and were coming off typical seasons for them. Last year's bullpen failures I completely expected; this year's came as an unpleasant surprise.

The reliever market was outrageously overpriced last free-agent season, and probably will be again this year. Looking forward, it seems clear to me that if the Jays are to build an above-average bullpen, they will have to do so mostly from within their system. The arms are there to make that happen in the not-too-distant future.

If you are bashing JP for the Werth trade , than you just dont like JP and like to find any little thing to blame him for the blue jays losing, Werth is batting like 270 with 12 hrs and 36 rbi , he is a 4th outfielder at best. Josh Phelps never plays for the Indians , just like he never played for us because he has not earned it, he i s on the bench where he belongs , yet everybody thought we gave up some kind of all star in the making, its really hilarious

Josh Phelps never plays for the Indians , just like he never played for us because he has not earned it, he i s on the bench where he belongs , yet everybody thought we gave up some kind of all star in the making, its really hilarious

Nobody in here though Phelps was an all-star we were just puzzled as to why (assuming Phelps was in the Jays plans) Dave Berg and Chris Gomez were getting AB's instead of Phelps at 1B. And the person the Jays got back was similar in age to Phelps but didn't have any major league experience.

Obviously, the reason why Phelps and Werth were traded away is because they were signed during the Gord Ash era.

And Dave Stewart may have been involved, as well.

;)

Josh Phelps never plays for the Indians , just like he never played for us because he has not earned it

Actually he starts against LHP, just as he did for the Jays.

In regards to relievers, I think you also have to consider that most, if not every team, raise a lot of their own bullpen talent.

Looking at the AAA crop, many of which were inherited to JP, it's easy to see why he has to go out and purchase almost every other piece of bullpen help (considering Chulk, File were about the best there, and that says a lot) instead of having the luxury of bringing up some young arms, like Texas or Anaheim or even the Yankees. Looking at the AAA bullpen staff the past couple of years makes you realize how mediocre the lot of them were and now are, and by the time JP's draft picks start getting to Syracuse (perhaps a couple as early as next year), many of the current bunch will not be good enough to remain on the AAA team.

As for Phelps being an all-star Ron, I'm not sure if you were here when he first came up and tore the cover off the ball, but there sure were whispers of all-star then.

And the person the Jays got back was similar in age to Phelps but didn't have any major league experience.

You forgot to add left-handed, is a great, versatile fielder and patient hitter who may hit for average and obp, not just homers. Phelps was given chances here the past two years to perform, both on the field and in the box, and it didn't work. To get something that may; I find that difficult to fault. Would you feel comfortable if Josh Phelps was starting everyday at first next year? Frankly the other options on the FA market aren't making me excited.

Phelps (and the Indians and A's) were on ESPN tonight and he looked okay against Barry Zito. Of course, he only saw two balls in the strike zone in the first two plate appearances (both walks).

Wonder if Zito is on his way out...

Wonder if Zito is on his way out...

Wow, what a difference a year or two can make. Can you imagine saying that last year? Blasphemy!

I love baseball reference's player comparisons.

If you check out Zito's comps, you get Hall of Famers Juan Marichal and Rube Marquard, but you also get lots of guys who were very effective for brief periods, then stumbled like Kevin Appier and Steve Barber.

At an A's site, I read that Zito's problem has basically been that opposition players have finally caught on to the concept that they shouldn't swing at his curve. So, if his curve isn't going for strikes, batters sit back and hit his change or fastball. If the curve goes for strikes, the batters struggle.

If the curve goes for strikes, the batters struggle.

He was throwing it for strikes last night against one of the best offenses in all of baseball. Shut 'em out.