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Welcome to quaint, old Fenway Park.

Twelve days ago, the Red Sox had to be feeling pretty good about things. They'd just finished sweeping the Damn Yankees, something always deeply satisfying to folks in New England. They'd got back above .500 and were riding a five game winning streak as they prepared for a nine game road trip. 

They'd already boarded the bus to the airport when they - and the rest of us - learned that Rafael Devers, merely the guy that the lineup had been built around, had been traded, and for what looked like a very marginal return. That, I promise you, is a kick n the head for any team. The Sox did keep winning for a while, taking three of their first four west coast games. But they've since dropped their last five games, and their season has a real chance to go swirling down the drain.

Let's see if the Blue Jays can help them on their Journey to the Bottom. The Jays will conclude the first half of the schedule tonight, and depending on how this evening's game goes, they'll be on pace for 86 wins. Or 88. Which is about what most people were expecting, as I recall. 

It's how they got there that's somewhat more interesting. Because it certainly had very little to do with any of Ross Atkins' big, splashy off-season moves - Max Scherzer, Anthony Santander, and Andres Gimenez have been either injured, underwhelming, or both. I realize Santander was, to a large extent, replacing Davis Schneider in the lineup, so it's not like much was lost. It's still been disappointing. There is, of course, still half a season remaining for that part of the story to change. 

But a great many of Atkins' smaller moves, that generally went completely under the radar at the time, have worked out better than anyone could have dreamed - getting Brendon Little in a straight cash deal, signing Eric Lauer off the refuse pile after he's been released by the Astros. Nathan Lukes was a six year minor leaguer who'd just hit .219/.294/.319 in AAA at age 24. Not to mention signing Ernie Clement after he'd been released by the Athletics. I would also suggest that Myles Straw has been far more useful than anyone could have dreamed, about as useful as a guy who really can't hit could possibly be. The dumpster diving has gone well, although I don't know if that describes Lauer - he was a quality starting pitcher on a contending team for a couple of years. He's someone recovering his form rather than a guy doing something completely unforeseeable.

But a key thing that's gone right was, I would suggest, quite easy to foresee. After all, I foresaw it, which suggests that it was probably Pretty Bleeding Obvious. The main thing that went wrong with the 2024 Blue Jays was the horrible, awful, no-good bullpen - something that should always be easy to fix, as useful relief pitchers grow on trees - and the surprising under-performance of three key hitters (Bichette, Springer, Kirk). Two of those three (Bichette and Springer) I was pretty confident would bounce back smartly. And so they have. Kirk's bat bouncing back to life as well has been a welcome bonus. 

And I would like to give some flowers to the manager. Someone should, and no one else will. Criticism of Schneider - like criticism of all managers - tends to happen on a micro level, on specific bits of game management (usually involving the bullpen.) Moves that didn't work - well, that's inevitable. It's the moves that don't seem to make sense, on any level that we can fathom, that tend to bother people most. But still, it's never interested me that much. For one thing, it's true of all managers. Trust me. All of them. While I may not know why Schneider's doing what he's doing, I do know what I don't know. Which probably amounts to at least half of what any decision of his is based on. No manager is going to share all of the factors that go into their decision-making with the general public. So, if I can restrain myself (alas, it's not always possible) I'd rather not even go there. I don't know which guys are nursing a hangover.

But on a macro level - well, this team had a brutal early schedule and basically didn't hit any home runs for the first month of the season. And it turned out they had just three competent starting pitchers. They could have easily been buried by mid-May. They weren't. They kept playing hard, and competing, and here they are. The manager should get some credit for that. 

One more thing. The Toronto Blue Jays are not exactly famous for playing smart, mistake-free baseball. Now, nobody's perfect and Jonatan Clase is doing his best to keep the old ways alive, but it's been a while since I've seen a Jays team that screwed up less often than this group. We probably have to go back to the veteran laden teams of ten years ago. They don't beat themselves as often as they used to. Maybe the manager should get some credit for that, too.

We can go into the second half cautiously optimistic. Santander and Gimenez are likely to clear the Mendoza Line at some point. Bichette and Guerrero have been solid, but neither has exactly been hot, and both are more than capable of carrying the offense all by themselves. They've done it before. And hey, Alek Manoah reportedly hit 95 in his last bullpen session (I know, the velocity returns before the command does.)

Matchups

Fri 27 June - Berrios (3-3, 3.51) vs Bello (3-2, 3.31)
Sat 28 June - Bassitt (7-3, 3.61) vs Giolito (3-1, 4.53)
Sun 29 June - Lauer (4-1, 2.21) vs Buehler (5-5, 6.29)
Toronto at Boston, June 27-29 | 162 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
mathesond - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#462411) #
Thanks for that Magpie. Puts me in a good mood as I get ready to see Budos Band (I can only imagine the score I will see when I get home).
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#462412) #
Guerrero is off. Clement plays first. 

Boston is on a 5-game losing streak and has scored 3.11 runs per game since trading Devers.
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#462414) #
Lineup sure feels light without Guerrero. 

Anthony hasn't figured it out yet.
Exit velo is good. So is barrel %, but it has resulted in week contact.
He doesn't chase, but he's been whiffing on balls in zone.
25% K and 18% walks.
He seems to have done better on change ups and worse on fastballs.
0-for-18 on 4-seamers. His homerun was on a sinker. Uppercut swing, I guess.
vw_fan17 - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#462415) #
Speaking of better Jays defense (I agree!), did Manzardo (I think) really end up charged with 3 errors in one inning yesterday?

One wonders if anyone (Magpie?) keeps track of such things, and how often such things happen..
Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#462416) #
Feels like Wagner should be up (likely for Clase) at this point. Jays don't have a backup 1Bman and Clement has now started 6 games there which is just absurd and Jays have so many Ofers as is.
Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#462417) #
And now Vlad is back in which of course forces Roden out of the lineup.
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#462418) #
As long as he can swing, I'll have Vlad over Roden.

Jose Ramirez is still out of the Cleveland lineup.
It's only a win if Vladdy has a big hit.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#462420) #
One wonders if anyone (Magpie?) keeps track of such things, and how often such things happen.

Somebody else, maybe!

Willie Davis, playing centre field, famously made three errors in the same inning of a World Series game, the last start of Sandy Koufax's career.

And Bob Brenly, a catcher playing third base, made four errors in the fourth inning of a game in 1986, booting three ground balls and making a bad throw. He then hit a homer in the fifth, a two-run single to tie the game in the seventh, and a walk off homer in the bottom of the ninth.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#462421) #
Whoa. Tommy John once made three errors on the same play. That's special.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#462422) #
do not lose this series.
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#462423) #
I was at Jarry Park when (I’m pretty sure - it was 1974 or 75) Larry Parrish of the Expos made three errors on the same play. Ground ball hit to third which Parrish booted and the ball rolled towards the 3B dugout. The batter thinking he might make it to second rounded first but Parrish had the ball and tried to throw behind the runner at first but threw it into RF. The batter took off and by the time the RF got the ball there was a play at 3rd. The RF threw a perfect strike to get the runner except Parrish dropped the throw.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#462425) #
sweet 2 out offense.

but really, Springer spent most of his career as a leadoff guy, clearly deserves that role this year, and Bo doesn't.
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#462426) #
After Bo, 5 great ABs.
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#462427) #
What a play by Clement.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#462428) #
more babip killing clement vRHP
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#462429) #
I was at Jarry Park when (I’m pretty sure - it was 1974 or 75) Larry Parrish of the Expos made three errors on the same play.

I hate to be that guy (who am I kidding? I live for this stuff!) but according to bb-ref, he did not.

But I think I found your game! At Jarry Park against the Mets, Parrish misplays a groun ball by Del Unser of the Mets (Unser was a Met? I remember him as a Phillie) and then makes an error on the throw, with Unser taking second. 

But I couldn't find Parrish making three errors in the same game.
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#462430) #
That was definitely the play! They must not have given him an error on the catch. I promise you he dropped an out! Thanks for the research:). Very cool.
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#462431) #
Barger is struggling right now. I really don’t like Clement running through the stop sign but with Barger struggling I probably would have been more aggressive with the decision to send or not. All’s well that ends well but our 3rd base coach has been so good this year he should generally be obeyed.
Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#462432) #
Don't love bunting in the second inning. Time to try to score lots of runs not to try to squeeze one run out.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#462433) #
can we get clement out of the lineup already.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#462434) #
Tommy John is still the king!

With one out and Jim Gantner on first, Jeffrey Leonard reached on a comebacker that John misplayed (error #1); he then threw the baseball into right field trying to get him (error #2) allowing Gantner to score. Dave Winfield threw the ball back in, John cut it off - and threw it into the dugout (error #3), giving Leonard a Little League homer.

Granted, Tommy John - who was 45 years old at the time - would pitch 8 innings that night, improving his record to 8-3, and the Yankees would win 16-3.
greenfrog - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#462435) #
Clement’s fabulous 2025 continues apace. He’s not going to stop until the doubters capitulate!
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#462437) #
I have zero idea why Clase is getting ABs over Roden.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#462438) #
165wrc+ for Clase in his last 5gms helps.
Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#462439) #
Huge hit by Kirk. Now, want the Jays to trash the Red Sox bullpen to help setup rest of series.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#462440) #
Give Berrios the 8th, coach.
hypobole - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#462441) #
Prior to tonight, Clement had walked 26 times in 779 PA's as a Jay - so what he's done today would have taken 90 PA's. .
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#462442) #
Yeah but his exit velocity on those walks was just lucky.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#462443) #
Prior to this season, Clement had never walked twice in the same game. Ever. This year - once in April, once in May. And three times tonight.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#462444) #
The Importance of Playing Ernie, a play in 9 acts.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#462445) #
Gimenez clears the Mendoza Line!
Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#462446) #
Don't let up!
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#462447) #
The best news of the night is that Gimenez has looked better tonight than at any time since the first week of the season.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#462448) #
jays now have a positive run differential (+8), Red Sox a negative one (-2).

yanks won, but tampa blew a 6-0 lead and is trailing the Orioles 11-8 in the 7th.
greenfrog - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#462449) #
Clement wRC+ now up to 119. His Savant Fielding Run Value is 96th percentile. He’s on a 5+ WAR pace for the season.

Pretty good for someone people think is (a) unenjoyable to watch play baseball, (b) should be benched more often, (c) has a disappointing WPA (*), and/or (d) should be dangled as trade bait this summer.

* This is the first I’ve ever heard this argument made about any player (has a bad WPA).
greenfrog - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#462450) #
The Importance of Playing Ernie

By Oscar “Effectively” Wilde.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#462451) #
heh, nice.

to add to your other post - Ernie is currently tied for #20 WAR in MLB.
Gerry - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#462452) #
Italics Be Gone
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#462453) #
Boy do i love beating the red sox. Badly. And in Fenway.


Rays now down 7 heading into the 8th.

Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#462454) #
always great to beat the Red Sox. Would love to bury them this series but one win at a time!
92-93 - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#462455) #
There is no argument about Clement’s WPA, it merely is what it is. He hasn’t been that clutch this season, as can be seen by his RBI total (perhaps you’ve heard people mention a player’s RBI total in the past). It doesn’t mean he won’t be clutch moving forward. His good night tonight made up for half of the negative WPA he posted in the Jays’ last loss.

The “trade Clement” idea is a natural response to people floating the idea of the Jays trading their RBI leader/starting SS for pitching help, as well as the lavish praise heaped on our cheap, 6-WAR player. If you want players like Skenes and believe Clement is this good, teams like the Pirates would be interested in such a prolific talent. Clement is certainly more valuable than Bichette if you're looking around for a pitcher, because the selling team has 3.5 years of a prized asset at bargain bin prices.

I'm old enough to remember when people were concerned with what jerking Barger around between 3B and RF would do to his confidence, and there's been a noticeable drop in his offense since Gimenez returned and he stopped playing 3B everyday.

It was great to see Vladdy right back in the lineup tonight. I can't recall ever seeing a batting order changed for the better without an injury, so it was a very nice surprise.

Team MVP Kirky is on some kinda roll right now. For all the complaining we've done about the Jays never taking a gamble on their own, it's looking like a fantastic contract extension right now.
greenfrog - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#462456) #
Tremendous team win.

Someone (Glevin?) mentioned Sonny Gray as a potential trade target. Looks like he’s lost a bit of velo this year, but he’s having another very good season. He could be a good veteran pickup for the Blue Jays.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#462457) #
Rays now down....14.
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#462458) #
Cash must be pitching at this point.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#462459) #
Cash must be pitching at this point.

It was Jose Caballero who finished up, and who's now played everything but catcher and first base this season.
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#462460) #
Jays have now a positive run differential and Boston's gone negative. Could be a turning point.
Magpie - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#462461) #
Mick Abel, tonight's starting pitcher for the Phillies, threw no pitches and faced no batters. He's still the starter of record. Strange but true. (Two hour rain delay - they decided to make it a bullpen game instead of getting him warm again.)

JohnL - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#462462) #
Re: Kirk & extension:

I only saw the end of the game, but watched through all the talking heads afterward. Caleb raved about Kirk. Said he'd originally disagreed with the extension, but takes it back now. Usual stuff about hitting (Campbell said he's "hitting like Ted Williams now"), framing, etc., but especially how much Kirk's "matured" behind the plate, supporting his pitchers.

Used an example from the 5th where Berrios didn't get a very close pitch. Video showed Kirk & ump in an extended disagreement about the pitch. "Supporting his pitcher" said Caleb, suggesting it could pay off in the stretch.

Also commented how Kirk is showing more emotion now. (Maybe the benefits of a nice secure contract...)
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#462463) #
Gray just blanked the Guardians. Instant karma.
scottt - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#462464) #
Doesn't he have to face 3 batters?
Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#462465) #
Clement actually causing Barger’s slump is a new and innovative angle. I’m at the point where I wish they would just DFA him so that we could move on.
John Northey - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#462466) #
Wow, Tampa has to hurt after that one - up 6-0, 92.7% win probability, just to lose 22-8. Ouch. 7 pitchers used, 7th a shortstop who threw 28 pitches and allowed 6 runs. I suspect some pitcher(s) will be sent down tonight so they have fresh arms for tomorrow.

Jays now 1 1/2 games behind Tampa for the top wild card slot, 3 behind the Yankees for the division lead. 3 1/2 ahead of the Guardians/Angels who are just out of the playoffs right now.

So half way there and 3 way tie for lead in HR's at 11 (Springer, Vlad, and Bo). The pace for 22 would be the lowest over a full season for the Jays since 2008 (Vernon Wells led with 20 HR), then 1982 when Willie Upshaw led with 21 HR, 1981 with John Mayberry at 17 (106 game season), 1979 with Mayberry at 21, 1978 Mayberry at 22, and 1977 with Ron Fairly at 19. 22+ hit in shortened seasons '94 and '95, but not in 2020 of course (Teoscar led with 16).

So yeah, the homers are low this year, but not unprecedented. No one on pace for 100 RBI, Vlad on pace for 100+ runs scored, Bassitt leads in wins at 7 (pace for 14), Hoffman on pace for 34 saves, no one on pace for 200K's though, but Berrios on pace for 200+ IP. Always fun to check 'on pace for' stuff. So no record breaking things this year for the Jays, but I'll be happy with a playoff appearance and very happy if they can win at least one round at long last.
92-93 - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#462467) #
That would be silly. He has tremendous trade value. Look at what the Nationals got 3.5 years of Juan Soto.

Both you and Barger will come out richer for the experience, Nigel.
92-93 - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#462468) #
It might be a good idea to switch Roden and Wagner, who homered last night for Buffalo. Wagner is a better fit for the MLB roster because he can play 1B, and Roden could use the ABs.
uglyone - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#462469) #

Clement as a Jay:

MLB: 784pa, 107wrc+, 4.6war/650
AAA: 320pa, 139wrc+

clearly he has massive trade value as a superstar that costs nothing, but how could you hope to get a better value then him in return?

guess we have to keep him.


Nigel - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:24 PM EDT (#462470) #
I have zero intention of getting further down into the Looking Glass so I say, in all seriousness, thank you 92-93 for looking out for the best interests of Barger and myself. Peace out.
Glevin - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#462472) #
Clement would be a great trade piece if the Jays were out of it but Jays are competing and he's a really good player making very little money so why would they trade him?
92-93 - Friday, June 27 2025 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#462473) #
It’s true, uglyone. They’d have to get more than the Nationals got for Soto, another 6ish WAR player, because Soto had massive arb salaries. Clement will make what, 15MM total in his 3 arb years?

Perhaps they could get Alcantara and prospects for Clement and Green, which might still leave them some $ to acquire other talent at the deadline.
hypobole - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#462474) #
Ernie will not be traded because unlike Rafael Devers, he's more than willing to play 1st base. Also unlike Devers, no fans seem to want him playing 1st base.

Ernie was drafted 132th overall back in 2017, one year after the Jays drafted Josh Palacios 132nd. There have been really good players drafted in that spot. Ray Durham, Chone Figgins, James Paxton, but the best ever is a much loved ex-Jays player who is still with our organisation. Who?
Mike Green - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 07:10 AM EDT (#462475) #
That was a good win with an effective long sequence offence and solid pitching and defence. Rolling.

Guerrero Jr. showed some leadership last night. He obviously pushed to stay in the lineup and was ready for it despite the injury, playing with focus and intensity. That's a very good sign. Berrios pitched with confidence.

Clement's offensive improvement is real. He's swinging much less at pitches outside of the zone and making less contact when he does, while swinging at more pitches within the zone and making more contact there. Pop-up rate down, walk rate up, line drive rate excellent. Statcast also says that he's been a little faster this year than in any previous one- impressive for a 29 year old. That'll help with the IF hit rate. He's not Honus Wagner obviously, but he could be a late bloomer in the Scutaro/Phillips vein. Scutaro was nowhere at age 28 (including a 16/58 W/K in 477 PA) but 5 years later had turned that right around.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 07:10 AM EDT (#462476) #
That was a good win with an effective long sequence offence and solid pitching and defence. Rolling.

Guerrero Jr. showed some leadership last night. He obviously pushed to stay in the lineup and was ready for it despite the injury, playing with focus and intensity. That's a very good sign. Berrios pitched with confidence.

Clement's offensive improvement is real. He's swinging much less at pitches outside of the zone and making less contact when he does, while swinging at more pitches within the zone and making more contact there. Pop-up rate down, walk rate up, line drive rate excellent. Statcast also says that he's been a little faster this year than in any previous one- impressive for a 29 year old. That'll help with the IF hit rate. He's not Honus Wagner obviously, but he could be a late bloomer in the Scutaro/Phillips vein. Scutaro was nowhere at age 28 (including a 16/58 W/K in 477 PA) but 5 years later had turned that right around.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#462477) #
" much-loved ex-Jay who is still in the organization"

Kevin Kiermaier?
electric carrot - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#462478) #
"Guerrero Jr. showed some leadership last night."

Guerrero has different energy this year, I think. He looks more focused, and dare I say it: _mature_. Maybe those 500 million dollars really do mean something? (If someone wants to drop 500 million on me I am willing to be a part of the experiment.)
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#462479) #
I get the sense the FO is trying to extend Bo and if they can they will trade Ernie if it brings back a piece to get them further into playoffs. Alan Roden I felt was a guy the org wants to pump up and trade next month. Ever since Ross started talking him up. The way he's been utilized also supports this.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#462482) #
I would be surprised if the Blue Jays traded Clement this season. He seems like a valuable player to have on a contending team in July-November. He’s versatile, plays great defense, runs well, has become comfortable in the majors, makes good contact, hits LHP well, and his game is peaking or improving.

Also, look at the results. The team has been playing very well for two months ever since Clement got untracked. The players respect him (Bo called him a “baller”). Why mess with a good thing?
Glevin - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#462483) #
I also don't think the Jays are trying to extend Bo. He's been so much better than last year but he's still not the player he was a few years ago and needs to be moved off of short.
hypobole - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#462484) #
The greatest player picked at 132 was by the Angels in 1981 - Devon White, who is now Devon Whyte, correcting the mistake US immigration made when his family moved to the States from Jamaica. We last saw him a couple of years ago as a replacement coach with the Jays for a while when he was coaching in Buffalo, and has been a player development special adviser lately.

Interestingly, he was a 6 WAR player with the 1992 WS winning Jays team (5.9 FG, 6.2 Bbref). But he was also one of the worst members of that team with a -0.48 WPA, a fact not brought up often enough to denigrate him that season.
uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#462486) #
They're not trading clement who is the best bang for buck player in baseball this year but obviously won't have the trade value to match that based on his track record.

92-93 is being sarcastically ironicomical.
Marc Hulet - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#462487) #
I don't think there is anyway Clement gets moved. He's exactly what a contending team wants in the playoffs with his defensive versatility, speed, and excellent defence at multiple positions.

He also likely has little-to-no value to a rebuilding/retooling team at 29 years old so he has limited trade value in that sense. You're not giving him to someone you'll potentially see in the playoffs.

There's also only two teams in the AL really out of the playoff race and four in the NL... there's not going to be as big of a market as people seem to think and the Jays still don't have the depth to outside other teams unless they gut the system. Even Arizona is only 3.5 games out. Milwaukee has a playoff spot. Texas is 2.5 out...
uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#462488) #
Clement up to a 102wrc+ vRHP in June. 93wrc+ vRHP in his jays career.
Magpie - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#462489) #
I think it may have done Clement a world of good simply knowing that he's made the team. He's not needing to justify his spot on the roster every time he comes to the plate. It's allowed him to curb the over-aggressiveness he often showed last year, which ends up with things like more GIDPs than Walks, unfortunate nd untimely mistakes in the field or on the basepaths. He can relax a little, and just play the game.

One word of warning - he's also hitting about 70 points better than last year on his Balls In Play. That probably won't continue. He's a good player no matter.
hypobole - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#462490) #
Clement has a 24.9% Line Drive rate. There are 19 qualified players at 24% or better. 9 have a higher BABIP than Ernie's .333, 9 lower.
hypobole - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#462491) #
On a non-Ernie note, there were some blowouts last night. 3 position players pitched. O's bopped Caballero for 6 runs, the Phillies scored 2 off Williams. And then there's the Jays. Last night was the 5th time they've faced a position player and the Jays have scored a total of one run. That's an ERA of 1.80. Thank goodness teams can't use them against us in close games. :)
Glevin - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#462492) #
There's also only two teams in the AL really out of the playoff race and four in the NL... there's not going to be as big of a market as people seem to think and the Jays still don't have the depth to outside other teams unless they gut the system. Even Arizona is only 3.5 games out. Milwaukee has a playoff spot. Texas is 2.5 out..."

I think smart teams will adjust to this format. Being on the outside looking on on the last wildcard should not stop you from selling. Like Arizona is only 3.5 back but they lost Carroll for a while and they have three free agents they can get assets for. The option is to either hope things break right and you sneak into the playoffs and somehow win a round or two and lose guys for nothing or get assets. Depends team to team (do they have impending free agents, how well could they do if they make playoffs, etc...) but smart teams with low chances of making the playoffs will use the seller's market to retool/rebuild instead of vaguely hoping things break right.
hypobole - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#462493) #
Also depends on ownership. Selling will cost the team walkup revenue for the balance of the season and impact the following year's season ticket sales (although spending big in free agency can change that). Monfort used to consider selling a plague to be avoided at all costs. The matter of how much of a playoff chance gets the blessing to sell varies from owner to owner.
Petey Baseball - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#462494) #
Interesting Scutaro comparison; Scutaro also played for the Clevelands and Athletics before getting to Toronto. One of the more under rated trades of the Ricciardi regime was acquiring Scutaro for two minor league pitchers who never made the bigs.
Marc Hulet - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#462495) #
The sell by the Tigers last year backfired, as did a sell-off by Milwaukee. Both GMs later admitted to making mistakes with the moves.

And teams, generally speaking, aren't giving up key prospects in the deals so taking the draft picks can sometimes be better.
Gerry - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#462496) #
Wagner is up and Roden down.

Several on here suggested that move and the FO listened.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#462497) #
So many people here that know definitively what FO's around the league will do. Apparently every contender will add without trading top picks or valuable roster players. At the same time middling teams won't sell off. So basically nothing will happen.

I couldn't disagree more. I think there will be a handful of teams not out of it who make bold choices to sell off strong pending free agent players to try to improve for next year (and hope it helps them rest of this year). I also think contenders will be more likely to go all in and include top prospects for one or two year rentals. I put Toronto in this camp. Manoah and Tiedemann are both pitching bullpens and are considered strong young players Torontocould trade without touching animals or Yesavage.

I expect a lot of action.
92-93 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#462498) #
Pete Crow-Armstrong, James Wood, Jacob Wilson, Paul Skenes, Hunter Brown...but Clement is the best bang for buck player in baseball this year. The legend grows!

Via Dan Shulman:

"So since May 29 (ie the day after they came home from the Tampa/Texas road trip), the #bluejays are
1st in the Majors in batting average.
2nd in OBP
4th in SLG
2nd in runs scored/game.

Without Varsho and Santander.

It's really quite something."

Helluva month from the Jays, putting them in good position to augment the roster over the next few weeks. They're on pace for 88 wins, my preseason prediction, but let's hope they blow that out of the water and win the division.

The bullpen is fresh today after two excellent starts from Gausman and Berrios. Rodriguez and Fisher are in the "need work" category, and everybody but Sandlin should be available.

Kirk (1.571ops) and Bichette (1.150) own Giolito, but Vladdy (.499) has had his issues.

Pleased to see the Jays swapped Roden and Wagner as I suggested last night.
hypobole - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#462499) #
"I also think contenders will be more likely to go all in and include top prospects for one or two year rentals"

Why this year more than other years?

And by the way, you haven't answered by bet proposal in the Cleveland thread.
Glevin - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#462500) #
They brought Roden up at end of May. Didn't play until June. He got a total of 27 PAs in a month and had a 118 WRC+. By comparison, Clase had 61 PAs with a 42 WRC+ and Lukes had 44 PAs with a 39 WRC+. If they weren't going to play Roden, he should be sent down, I just find the decision not to play him at all, baffling.
vw_fan17 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#462501) #
I was thinking yesterday:  if we had Santander at his "expexted" 120 OPS+ level for Roden/Clase, and Varsho to platoon with Straw, this team would have a very strong offence.
Glevin - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#462502) #
Teams always have been willing to give up good prospects for the right rental but don't see that player existing this year (almost always a starting pitcher). The only free agents maybe like that are maybe Valdez, Cease, and King and a couple more and they're all on contending teams.
Magpie - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#462503) #
Toronto could trade without touching animals

I require an explanation.

Two mysteries have caught my attention. One, Bo Bichette. I look under the hood and it's quite uncanny how closely the underlying numbers match his 2022 season, which was pretty darn good - the hard hit balls, the line drives, groundball-flyball, etc etc. The biggest difference, by far, is he isn't striking out nearly as often. He's never struck out less frequently in his life. Oh, and he's hitting a few more line drives. It's not doing him a lot of good.

And base running. My subjective impression is that this team has evolved into a fairly cautious team on the bases, that doesn't take a lot of extra bases but doesn't make a lot of outs either. And their most aggressive runners - Vladdy! Ernie! - have both significantly improved their judgement as to what they can and can't get away with out there. And the numbers say this is a pretty average team on the bases, but there's one thing that's kind of weird.

Last year, when they were about as average as it's possible to be, they made 3 outs at first base. All year. They've made more outs on the bases than the average team this season, and it's entirely because they've already made 9 outs at first base. Pickoffs aren't part of that number. I assume it's all being doubled off on a line drive.
SK in NJ - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#462504) #
Wagner for Roden is the right call. Wagner can cover 1B (so no more Clement having to play there in a pinch) and Roden was not being used at all so he really should not have been up. Wagner seems like more of a logical bat-first (hopefully he hits) utility player.
uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#462505) #
Magpie

Bo's differences from 2022 under the seem to specifically be 1. vLHP 2. vs offspeed pitches 3. babip
92-93 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#462506) #
My impression on Bichette is that he's almost been too good, frequently lining balls hard up the middle right at the CF. In 2022 it felt like he was always sitting offspeed and reacting to the fastball, constantly dumping hits down the RF line. We've seen a lot less of that this year. I do still wish he would make some better swing decisions, but I'm not worried about his bat at all. He looks comfortable.

Vladdy has been much smarter on the bases this year. Or maybe the results have just been better.
uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#462507) #
I also had the jays in the high 80s win totals this year.

BUT, if i was told they'd collectively get literal negative value from all the big money offseason adds (Santander Scherzer Gimenez Hoffman), i'd heve projected them for many many fewer wins.

greenfrog - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#462508) #
One reason Bo strikes out infrequently may be that he tends to swing early and often, putting the ball in play in the first few pitches of the PA.

As for the trade market, it's still early. The trade deadline is a month away. Teams that currently have a fair chance of making the postseason may be in a different position in late July. That may open up some new trade possibilities.
pooks137 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#462509) #
If they weren't going to play Roden, he should be sent down, I just find the decision not to play him at all, baffling.

Roden has had many forces conspiring against him.

1) Not trying to enter the tired Clement debate, but Ernie playing everyday against RHP stole some Roden PAs.

By pushing Barger to RF on days that Clement starts at 3B, there's only one available OF starting slot left since the coaching staff doesn't see Roden as a CF.

2) George Springer's offensive resurgence and declining defense has essentially made him the FT DH, again taking PAs from guys like Roden.

3) Roden's handedness on a roster with many LHH OF. The Jays have been seeing more LH SP and are using Davis Schneider as a lefty masher even if he is miscast. The decision to start Andres Gimenez at 2B most days against LH SP means Davis is pushed to left.

Even against RH SP, Roden often found himself 3rd or 4th on the LHH OF depth chart for the one remaining LF spot behind Lukes, Clase & Robertson. There were also starts where the coaching staff went with Robertson's power over Roden's contact ability.

4) Jonatan Clase. Being a switch hitter, Clase doesn't necessarily factor in any of the platoon scenarios. Between his switch-hitting, his ?ability? to play CF and likely a mandate for playing time from the FO, Clase ate a lot of the few remaining OF PAs that could've been had by Roden regardless of results.

One wonders if Schneider knew that Roden was going down today for Wagner when he gave him a pity PA against the position player pitching up 9-0 Top 9.

uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#462511) #
I think its a mistake to treat roden as if he's a young prospect that needs to be handled delicately and needs lots of playing time to develop. He's not. He's 25. He's very much at a stage where he has to earn it like everyone else, and not at a stage where being on an mlb bench is necessarily worse for him than playing every day in AAA.

Besides, he's received more mlb pa this year than any of the other borderline guys anyways (clase 23 schneider 26 wagner26) despite not producing at all, so he's hardly been sidelined.
electric carrot - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#462512) #
"I think its a mistake to treat roden as if he's a young prospect ..."

I agree with uglyone re: Roden o and also I think by year's end Bichette's offensive stats will be in the 2022 orbit given his underlying #s. Also, now that Scherzer is back I feel better about the starting rotation. I don't advocate trading Bo for pitching and I am looking forward to Monoah's return. I am now for standing pat and seeing what happens with the team we have.
92-93 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#462513) #
Most of Roden's opportunity that he squandered came early in the season. Since Roden's recall on May 30th:

Clase .169/.234/.271 64 PA 4BB 17K
Roden .292/.333/.458 27 PA 2BB 6K

Roden actually has been earning it, it just seems you and the Jays haven't noticed.
Magpie - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#462514) #
Bo's differences from 2022 under the seem to specifically be 1. vLHP 2. vs offspeed pitches 3. babip

Sure, and it's just 75 PApps against LH. Anything could happen.

It's the BABiP that's really interesting - it's .300 this year, which seems normal, a little better than league average and bouncing back from his awful numbers last year. It's just through his first five seasons, more than 2,000 PApps, his BABiP was .349. Which seems too large a sample to be entirely a fluke.
John Northey - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#462515) #
Excellent point uglyone on playing time. Lets look at the OF contenders and how much they played this year.
WhoAgePAOPS+bWAR
Alan Roden2511165-0.1
Myles Straw30150801.3
Addison Barger252101201.2
Nathan Lukes30168990.6
Jonatan Clase23107650.0
Davis Schneider2659710.3
Will Robertson27124-0.2
Will Wagner266844-0.3

I added Wagner just because he is going to take Roden's roster slot. Clase is the only really young one here, the rest are 25+ which is where the prospect shine starts to wear off (Kirk, Vlad, Gimenez are all 26 for example).

So basically don't expect the Jays to get anything in trade for any of those guys - unless a team is super desperate for OF'ers they can plug in today (Pittsburgh, outside of ONeil Cruz, has 0.1 or negative WAR from all OF'ers for example - plus they have a few guys in their pen doing well who might not be expensive due to low K totals or little success pre-2025, Bednar would be expensive though). Basically we have a lot of chum in the water here in the OF for LF in Roden/Straw/Lukes/Clase/Schneider/Robertson none of whom are hot prospects, nor are any young enough to excite. I get why Clase is getting so much playing time as he has the most potential growth. Roden has looked good at times but can't seem to do it in the majors, yet. Barger I'd rather see at 3B more often.

Once everyone is healthy I expect Schneider and Lukes will share LF with Straw backing them up, but Clase could claim it. The Jays also must be looking at trades for someone who could take it over full time.
John Northey - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#462516) #
The pen is an interesting thing right now. Going well mostly, but do you trust it? I don't.
  • Hoffman - up and down all year, great for stretches, but also sucks for stretchs.
  • Garcia - injured, sucked post deadline last year then got hurt, at 34 unlikely to be in better health.
  • Rodriguez - doing well in the pen, seems to have adjusted and accepted it. Seems to is the key part.
  • Little - having a great year, but dang is he wild (over 5 BB/9) and there is a reason the Cubs sold him to the Jays
  • Fisher - has been WOW, 20 IP 3 BB 28 K's. 4th round pick by Dodgers who dumped him for Biggio - dang did that work out for the Jays.
  • Fluharty - was looking great, but June 8th to now has a 15.19 ERA over 5 1/3 IP. Yikes. Hopefully he gets back to his earlier form. Just 23, a 5th round pick in 22.
  • Sandlin - was doing well pre-injury. But his xFIP is 4.93 and other expected stats are also ugly.
  • Schultz - up and down, very useful though, but was a 14th round pick who just reached at 27.
  • Green - was our best or among the best here in '24, which is a damning statement on that team. But in very low leverage slots since June 15th he has done well, 4 2/3 IP 1 R 1 BB 4 SO. If not for his contract ($10.5 mil) I suspect he'd have been dumped already. His 6.08 FIP is scary.
I'd say Green could be dumped at any time, Schultz and Fluharty sent to AAA if they don't keep performing, Sandlin also has options left if needed. So clearing space for a solid reliever is possible and easy.
scottt - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#462517) #
I see the logic of bringing Wagner up, but then Clement starts at 1B regardless?
Glevin - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#462519) #
He's very much at a stage where he has to earn it like everyone else, and not at a stage where being on an mlb bench is necessarily worse for him than playing every day in AAA."

This is absolute nonsense. I mean, Roden was awful in April and good in his brief appearances in June. There is absolutely no way he could "make the most of his appearances" with 27 PAs in a month. He'd have to have be like Aaron Judge to make even a dent in those April numbers. He killed it in AAA and had a 118 WRC+ in majors. How is that not earning it? Meanwhile. Clement has 191 PAs against RHP with a 65 WRC+ how is that earning everyday abs against RHP? How is Clase having a 42 WRC+ or Lukes having a 36 WRC+ in June earning playing time? Roden has to be exceptional to get any playing time and everyone else can be terrible and earns more playing time? This is the issue. Roden did earn the playing time and the Jays still refused to play him. Roden had 0.2 WAR in 27 PAs. Lukes, Robertson, and Clase had combined - 0.6 WAR in 117 PAs. They sure earned that playing time!
uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#462520) #
I would wager the jays think his time spent on the bench helped those recent numbers, while them handing him everyday at bats from the start of the year hurt him.
scottt - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#462521) #
They don't see Roden as a regular CF.
He's not outhitting Lukes, Springer and Barger.
Glevin - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#462522) #
I'm sorry, are you saying that he benefited offensively by playing once a week? You can help a player by not playing him against same-handed pitchers or by avoiding certain kinds of pitchers but Jays started Roden against Joe Ryan and Zach Wheeler. They weren't protecting him. It is much harder for players to succeed not playing much than it is to play everyday.

Obviously, Jays don't see Roden as a CF. I don't think he's fast enough to play there much but he consosntantly outperforms Lukes and Clase on defensive metrics.
Magpie - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#462523) #
This is all about the 26th man, of course and I figure once Varsho and Santander are back, the last man on the roster will be one - and only one - of Clase, Roden, or Wagner. I would hope it's Wagner - I think he's a better fit, and will turn out to be a better hitter. The audition will be starting soon enough.
electric carrot - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#462524) #
Positive run differential down to +2.
uglyone - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#462525) #
yes i am saying he likely was hurt by being pushed into an everyday role as a rookie to start the year, and that he was likely helped by getting acclimated to mlb on the bench and with carefully selected matchups.
92-93 - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#462526) #
Let Ernie pitch!
Magpie - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#462527) #
Clement has made 4 pitching appearances in the majors and it hasn't gone well (11 Hits, 6 Runs).

Tyler Heineman, however, has a couple of scoreless appearances, retiring six of the seven hitters he's faced.
scottt - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#462530) #
Fluharty and Wagner are best buddies and with Wagner up, maybe it's time to send Fluharty down.
Magpie - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#462531) #
BlueJayWay - Saturday, June 28 2025 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#462532) #
Run differential took a bit of a hit
Marc Hulet - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#462534) #
It's definitely time to give Fluharty a reprieve from Schneider's usage/workload... Bruihl seems more than capable to fill the No. 2 lefty for a bit.

It's going to suck if Fisher ends up back at AAA, though, when Burr and Garcia are ready - likely this week. The better move would be to send down Schultz and Sandlin, who still has 3 minor league options.
christaylor - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#462535) #
I'll take powder blue + grey.
Jonny German - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#462536) #
Burr is not a seasoned vet with an impressive resume, I doubt he’ll be bumping Fisher (and definitely not Sandlin, who has a much longer and better track record in the majors).

But I won’t be surprised if Burr comes up today to replace Schultz, just because of yesterday’s mess.

The question will be whether Garcia replaces Burr or Fluharty when he’s ready.
scottt - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#462537) #
The weakest link is Green but he wasn't used in either blowouts so it looks like he's got some banked trust left.
Marc Hulet - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#462538) #
Burr has no minor league options and they're likely to lose him if he gets demoted. The Jays don't have much pitching depth so that probably buys him some time to re-establish himself.
hypobole - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#462539) #
Bruil was optioned less than 9 days ago, have to wait 6 more days. Tate has been pitching well for over a month, 2 runs in 15 IP since May 16 IIRC. 
92-93 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#462540) #
Or you could just put Schultz on the IL and bring back Bruihl. Everybody wins.
92-93 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#462541) #
Looks like Wagner has taken over Roden's role of sitting vs. a RHP so a .256/.292/.289 bat can play. At least everybody seems to hit Buehler this year, though.
92-93 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#462542) #
Team MVP Kirky has been the most valuable defensive player in baseball, regardless of position, by fielding run value.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/fielding-run-value

I wonder what his mWAR would be if MLB provided such a stat.

uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#462547) #
So Bassitt pretty clearly called the Red Sox cheaters yesterday.
uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#462548) #
the pesky pole is legit the stupidest thing in baseball.
92-93 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#462549) #
That HR had a .270 xBA and would've been gone in Yankee Stadium and Steinbrenner Field. A swing made for the AL East.
Eephus - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#462550) #
Would’ve liked a replay to confirm (lousy road broadcast) but in the moment I thought Clase took a pretty lousy route on that Rafaela hit.
electric carrot - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#462551) #
Yes, Clase took a step in and then the ball went over his glove.
uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#462552) #
absolutely a bad route by clase. he broke straight left. the question as always though is if someone slower with a good route would have got to that ball either.
uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#462553) #
https://x.com/MattGertz/status/1939392231804465302
uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#462554) #
lol sorry did not mean to post that.
92-93 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#462555) #
Elbows up and away from the keyboard.

What did Bassitt say about the Sox?
uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#462556) #

They fouled off sinkers, cutters, four-seamers, curveballs, and sliders. Up, down, in, and out. It was an impressive display of bat-to-ball and pitch recognition — particularly the hack Wilyer Abreu took against a first-pitch curveball as he wrapped a 357-foot homer around Pesky’s Pole. It was only the second home run Bassitt’s allowed on a first-pitch curveball in his career.

“And he was sitting on it,” Bassitt lamented afterwards.

What was leading to all those comfortable swings? “I don't know, I really don't know,” Bassitt said. “I gave up eight hits and I probably wouldn't change any location on one of them. So, I'm not really sure.”

you won’t find another non-injury impacted Bassitt start shorter than Saturday’s because it doesn’t exist. And you’ll find only one other — his Blue Jays debut on April 2, 2023 — in which he allowed nine runs. His six whiffs were tied for fourth-fewest in a start with the Blue Jays. The nine curveballs he threw were tied for his fewest in an outing this season. We simply haven’t seen many Bassitt days like this one.

“I have a lot of respect for Alex Cora, the Boston Red Sox, and everything that they do over there,” Bassitt said. “So, obviously I've got to dive into everything. Am I being too predictable? Am I tipping? Were their approaches a lot better than what I was throwing up there? Like, what caused that? Because I don't know how many pitches I threw but, for the most part, I didn't make many mistakes. And yet, the game went the way it did.”

“I gave up hits and they were all basically on the black,” Bassitt said. “It was either a really good approach or I was tipping. I would rather side with the really good approach, given that I have a lot of respect for that organization. So, I've just got to wear it. I got exposed. Move on. Learn from it. And just be better.”

uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#462557) #
Lukes has been struggling since his return but that's a couple beauty at bats today.
Glevin - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#462558) #
Clase is just a really bad fielder. Occasionally will use speed to make plays but his routes and instincts are so bad. I hate pinch hitting Straw for him though. Straw shouldn't pinch hit for anyone ever.
Eephus - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#462559) #
He’s definitely an adventure… I don’t feel all too comfortable when anything is hit Clase’s way. Although hard to blame him for the one that bounced out of his glove against the wall, that would’ve been a spectacular play if he’d been able to squeeze it.
Eephus - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#462560) #
Speaking of spectacular… nice one Bo (and Vlad to stretch it).
christaylor - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#462561) #
I am happy to be wrong about Kirk. I hope he can keep things going in the second half.
uglyone - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#462562) #
Scherzer-Gausman-Berrios vs the Yanks to close their 3gm lead.
Glevin - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#462563) #
2/3 in Boston is nice. Huge series with Yankees and great chance to seriously close gap.
vw_fan17 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#462564) #
I was VERY HAPPY when they pinch-hit Straw for Clase - although I guess they could have let Clase hit, THEN bring in Straw? Either way, it was just in time, before Clase bobbled the game away, IMHO. I wonder if that diving catch early on was due to a bad route as well? He's got some of the worst routes I've seen in a while. 

Good work by Yariel today, it would have been criminal to not let him work the next inning as well.

I wish they had brought Little out for a 2nd inning / have Sandlin ready, but it worked out ok despite the initial walk. Was very nervous when Hoffman came in, but it worked out ok. 

Giminez is back to nearly unplayable again.. 
scottt - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#462565) #
Gimenez went 1-for-3, with an RBI. That plays.
Magpie - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#462566) #
Gimenez went 1-for-3, with an RBI. That plays.

He went 4-10 this weekend, with 4 RBI,a walk, a SB, and some nifty defense. Indeed it does.
pooks137 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#462567) #
Giminez is back to nearly unplayable again..

Gimenez actually made some decent contact again today.

Soft liner to 1B in his 1st PA that easily could've found a hole.

RBI single the next time up pulling a ball to RF after Buehler tried to disrespect him like Giolito the day before, pumping nothing but fastballs down the pipe challenging Gimenez to hit one.

Gimenez had another liner to RF later in the game that could've fell in.

He also had a HBP off his wrist that looked painful and worrisome.

Gimenez' batting profile is a mess, but there seems to be some BABIP hope in there.

The broadcast and opposing teams are honed in that Gimenez can't get around on fastballs with his current batspeed. Joe Siddall was criticizing him for being late on Giolito's 94 mph center cut FBs yesterday.

Gimenez also has zero power right now, which is just killing his line. He had those 3 HRs during the first week and essentially no XBHs since.

Between some hope for better BABIP luck, Gimenez' line drive approach and his extra OBP from HBP, along with some SB and elite baserunning, there's still a playable 9th hitter in there.

A good first step would be to sit Gimenez against LH SP to bring Barger back in from RF. It would also help to have another RHH option for the OF or IF that wasn't Myles Straw or Davis Schneider.

ISLAND BOY - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#462568) #
" I hate pinch hitting Straw for him though. Straw shouldn't pinch hit for anyone ever."

Clase numbers Avg. .204 OBP .284 SLG .296 OPS .580

Straw numbers Avg. .259 OBP .287 SLG .329 OPS .616

Not only does Straw have better batting numbers, he's miles better defensively. Frankly I can't understand why Clase gets in the starting lineup so often.
scottt - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#462569) #
This wasn't quite as bad as Bassitt's first Blue Jays game in Philly.
I'm convinced that the hitters in Philadelphia could hear Kirk's pitchcom as Bassitt was calling the pitches.

I only watched the first inning and Bassitt left a lot of stuff over the plate and he threw many pitches that were never in the strike zone.
Duran struck out. Anthony grounded to second. He got Toro to a 1-2 count on 2 foul balls and tried to strike him out.
That ended up with a 10-pitch single. Pitch 7 was a high curve. 8 was a high sider. 9 was a slider almost down the pipes. 10 was a cutter that didn't cut.

I think after that Bassitt was tired and frustrated. Narvaez single on a slider down the middle. Abreu was sitting on the curve. For sure.
The 2 outs had come on curves.

scottt - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#462570) #
It's good to remember that he runs the bases really well, He can score from first or steal second.
So the lack of power doesn't matter as much with him as with Bo.

pooks137 - Sunday, June 29 2025 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#462571) #
It's good to remember that he runs the bases really well .

Kind of embarassing that both Gimenez and Heineman both have been picked off 1st by the catcher in the last few games.

Both times ending an inning. And both times with a runner on second and nowhere to go.

scottt - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 05:51 AM EDT (#462573) #
Does that include the failed double steal?
pooks137 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#462575) #
In Gimenez' case, yes.
scottt - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#462576) #
That's more on the lead runner.
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#462577) #
Getting harder and harder to figure out lineups as everyone starts hitting closer to their projections, and as we see some stark platoon splits. but i'll try.


Plausible Best Lineup using....


...this year's stats only:


1. DH Springer 302pa, .360obp, 132wrc+
2. RF Barger 218pa, .321obp, 124wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 359pa, .384obp, 137wrc+
4. C Alejandro 271pa, .362obp, 126wrc+
5. SS Bichette 379pa, .311obp, 106wrc+
6. CF Varsho 100pa, .240obp, 105wrc+
7. 3B Clement 288pa, .347obp, 115wrc+
8. LF Lukes* 176pa, .355obp, 105wrc+
9. 2B Gimenez 226pa, .284obp, 68wrc+

B. UT Santander 209pa, .273obp, 65wrc+
B. OF Straw* 156pa, .287obp, 72wrc+
B. IF Schneider 60pa, .350obp, 88wrc+
B. C Heineman 81pa, .400obp, 158wrc+

X. UT Roden 111pa, .279obp, 66wrc+
X. OF Clase 110pa, .284obp, 67wrc+
X. IF Wagner 70pa, .290obp, 54wrc+
X. C Sanchez 11pa, .182obp, 19wrc+

X. IF Stefanic 25pa, .280obp, 39wrc+
X. OF Robertson 12pa, .250obp, 16wrc+



....Past 1 Calendar Year Stats:

1. DH Springer 605pa, .337obp, 119wrc+
2. 3B Barger 389pa, .298obp, 108wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 697pa, .403obp, 164wrc+
4. C Alejandro 509pa, .352obp, 119wrc+
5. RF Santander 548pa, .301obp, 107wrc+
6. 2B Clement 595pa, .314obp, 103wrc+
7. CF Varsho 331pa, .288obp, 103wrc+
8. SS Bichette 423pa, .303obp, 99wrc+
9. LF Lukes* 267pa, .360obp, 114wrc+

B. UT Wagner 152pa, .325obp, 98wrc+
B. OF Straw 160pa, .286obp, 71wrc+
B. IF Gimenez 535pa, .288obp, 74wrc+
B. C Heineman 94pa, .387obp, 142wrc+

X. UT Roden 111pa, .279obp, 66wrc+
X. OF Clase 141pa, .314obp, 89wrc+
X. IF Jimenez 206pa, .335obp, 105wrc+
X. C Bethancourt 59pa, .305obp, 125wrc+

X. UT Schneider 245pa, .261obp, 49wrc+
X. OF Loperfido 198pa, .237obp, 59wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 114pa, .301obp, 63wrc+
X. C Sanchez 92pa, .184obp, 1wrc+



....Fangraphs Depth Chart Combined Projections:

1. DH Springer 300pa, .329obp, 110wrc+
2. SS Bichette 317pa, .323obp, 112wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 331pa, .372obp, 142wrc+
4. C Alejandro 241pa, .351obp, 117wrc+
5. RF Santander 201pa, .312obp, 113wrc+
6. 3B Barger 246pa, .313obp, 106wrc+
7. CF Varsho 246pa, .292obp, 101wrc+
8. LF Lukes 143pa, .342obp, 109wrc+
9. 2B Gimenez 300pa, .318obp, 99wrc+

B. UT Wagner 106pa, .344obp, 109wrc+
B. OF Roden 65pa, .335obp, 106wrc+
B. IF Clement 171pa, .316obp, 102wrc+
B. C Heineman 81pa, .322obp, 92wrc+

X. UT Schneider 61pa, .322obp, 103wrc+
X. OF Clase 123pa, .296obp, 85wrc+
X. IF Jimenez 3pa, .337obp, 107wrc+
X. C Bethancourt 1pa, .277obp, 91wrc+

X. UT Loperfido 3pa, .298obp, 92wrc+
X. OF Straw 82pa, .301obp, 75wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 1pa, .356obp, 109wrc+
X. C Sanchez 3pa, .281obp, 75wrc+
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#462578) #
As useful as Straw's hot streak was to start the year, it might bite us in the ass now because he's earned his way into our manager's stubborn heart and he'll keep using him as a legit platoon bat long after he should. Maybe we get lucky and Straw gets another hot streak going at some point.

uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#462579) #
L/R platoon lineups, using this year's stats only:

vRHP - This year's stats only

1. DH Springer 223pa, .364obp, 135wrc+
2. 3B Barger 183pa, .317obp, 128wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 280pa, .368obp, 127wrc+
4. C Alejandro 201pa, .353obp, 126wrc+
5. CF Varsho 81pa, .272obp, 145wrc+
6. SS Bichette 296pa, .314obp, 111wrc+
7. RF Lukes 161pa, .352obp, 106wrc+
8. 2B Gimenez 162pa, .317obp, 93wrc+
9. LF Clase 81pa, .288obp, 79wrc+

B. UT Santander 159pa, .270obp, 69wrc+
B. OF Roden 98pa, .276obp, 70wrc+
B. IF Clement 198pa, .291obp, 63wrc+
B. C Heineman 52pa, .346obp, 110wrc+

X. UT Wagner 63pa, .286obp, 48wrc+
X. OF Straw 84pa, .266obp, 60wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 20pa, .300obp, 55wrc+
X. C Sanchez 10pa, .100obp, -56wrc+

X. UT Schneider 17pa, .294obp, 33wrc+
X. OF Robertson 10pa, .200obp, -19wrc+


vRHP - 2 year stats

1. DH Springer 692pa, .323obp, 111wrc+
2. LF Lukes 238pa, .363obp, 118wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 838pa, .383obp, 151wrc+
4. RF Santander 644pa, .300obp, 115wrc+
5. C Alejandro 487pa, 339obp, 106wrc+
6. 3B Barger 371pa, .289obp, 103wrc+
7. SS Bichette 570pa, .305obp, 98wrc+
8. CF Varsho 490pa, .276obp, 98wrc+
9. 2B Gimenez 623pa, .310obp, 91wrc+

B. UT Wagner 127pa, .331obp, 98wrc+
B. OF Schneider 333pa, .300obp, 90wrc+
B. IF Clement 505pa, .296obp, 88wrc+
B. C Heineman 60pa, .333obp, 96wrc+

X. UT Loperfido 212pa, .265obp, 79wrc+
X. OF Clase 119pa, .297obp, 87wrc+
X. IF Jimenez 149pa, .309obp, 86wrc+
X. C Bethancourt 96pa, .234obp, 54wrc+

X. UT Roden 98pa, .276obp, 70wrc+
X. OF Straw 87pa, .268obp, 62wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 100pa, .293obp, 51wrc+
X. C Sanchez 75pa, .211obp, 15wrc+




vLHP - This year's Stats only

1. DH Springer 79pa, .351obp, 125wrc+
2. 2B Clement 90pa, .472obp, 231wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 79pa, .443obp, 174wrc+
4. C Alejandro 70pa, .386obp, 126wrc+
5. LF Schneider 43pa, .372obp, 110wrc+
6. 3B Barger 35pa, .343obp, 102wrc+
7. RF Lukes 15pa, .385obp, 91wrc+
8. SS Bichette 83pa, .301obp, 87wrc+
9. CF Straw 72pa, .310obp, 85wrc+

B. UT Santander 50pa, .280obp, 47wrc+
B. OF Varsho 19pa, .105obp, -60wrc+
B. IF Gimenez 64pa, .203obp, 4wrc+
B. C Heineman 29pa, .500obp, 246wrc+

X. UT Roden 13pa, .308obp, 42wrc+
X. OF Clase 29pa, .276obp, 34wrc+
X. IF Wagner 7pa, .333obp, 110wrc+
X. C Sanchez 1pa, 1.000obp, 765wrc+

X. OF Robertson 2pa, .500obp, 192wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 5pa, .200obp, -21wrc+


vLHP - 2 year stats

1. DH Springer 224pa, .320obp, 92wrc+
2. 2B Clement 235pa, .336obp, 132wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 218pa, .427obp, 169wrc+
4. C Alejandro 170pa, .329obp, 108wrc+
5. RF Santander 230pa, .300obp, 105wrc+
6. CF Varsho 123pa, .317obp, 103wrc+
7. SS Jimenez 61pa, .377obp, 138wrc+
8. LF Straw 73pa, .306obp, 83wrc+
9. 3B Wagner 29pa, .250obp, 69wrc+

B. UT Bichette 145pa, .255obp, 52wrc+
B. OF Barger 72pa, .264obp, 58wrc+
B. IF Gimenez 236pa, .254obp, 48wrc+
B. C Heineman 37pa, .472obp, 211wrc+

X. UT Schneider 181pa, .271obp, 63wrc+
X. OF Lukes 29pa, .333obp, 76wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 49pa, .306obp, 78wrc+
X. C Bethancourt 51pa, .255obp, 88wrc+

X. OF Loperfido 50pa, .260obp, 54wrc+
X. OF Clase 57pa, .281obp, 48wrc+
X. OF Roden 13pa, .308obp, 42wrc+
X. C Sanchez 32pa, .200obp, 5wrc+


92-93 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#462581) #
Sounds awfully familiar, except the guy with a .575ops vs. RHP this year isn't being used in a platoon.

Now that the Jays have decided Lukes is a better CF than Clase, the decision to demote Roden is even more bizarre. Since his recall, Roden had been significantly better than Clase in the limited opportunity provided to him. While it’s clear that Clase will be the one to go when Varsho is ready, they are costing themselves by starting the inferior player in the meantime. The only explanation for the treatment lately is that they believe that Clase’s ceiling is significantly higher.
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#462582) #
Think the numbers show that that's not the only explanation.
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#462583) #
I think in general on the jays this year people are trying to draw way too concrete black and white conclusions based on tiny samples.

And given that the team is doing better than most thought they would, even though all the GM's big money offseason adds have been useless so far, I think people are being too critical of the manager, who seems to be juggling a whole bunch of uncertain pieces pretty dang well tbh.

and it gets even weirder when its criticisms for not playing guys with worse stats over guys with better stats.

If the team were doing poorly or worse than most projected it would be more understandable I think.
92-93 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#462584) #
Heh, you literally quote 5 game wRCs as if they mean something.

As I pointed out upthread:

Since Roden's recall on May 30th:

Clase .169/.234/.271 64 PA 4BB 17K (-0.4war)
Roden .292/.333/.458 27 PA 2BB 6K (0.2war)

Hence my comment about upside potential. Or maybe they just think Clase is a better player regardless of recent results, that's fair too.

Roden was bad in April, and Clase was bad in June.
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#462585) #
yeah i'll post a small sample for completeness if it's the only sample we have, but i'd never draw concrete conclusions from it. heck its even hard to draw firm conclusions from larger samples - that's why i post a number of different splits whenever i can.

for example, in your split Roden has 26pa with a 92wrc+ (ignoring his last PA against an infielder). While in Clase's last 25pa he has a 93wrc+. And I'm pretty sure that Clase wasn't being hidden from LHP in that split.

So which one of them is actually hitting better at the moment?





92-93 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#462587) #
Clase has hit .178/.213/.311 vs. RHP since Roden was recalled. So not as bad as his overall line, but still worse than Roden. And that helps explain the Straw PH yesterday vs. a LHP.
92-93 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#462588) #
With 15K and 1BB in 47PA.
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#462589) #
agreed, your specific sample is the only sample the organization should make its decisions on. nothing bigger, nothing smaller.
Glevin - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#462591) #
I'm fine with Straw because he's an ideal 5th OFer. Great fielder, can pinch run, can bunt, etc... He just shouldn't be playing much. Maybe start once a week or something. Clase is guy who shouldn't be in majors but AAA is very crowded in OF. Jays need to trade just to clear up some room.
92-93 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#462592) #
I mean ya, if Clement deserves to play everyday vs. RHP despite his terrible season line against them, Clase probably shouldn't have been starting vs. RHP over Roden. Either recent results matter or they don't.
uglyone - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#462594) #
Clement vRHP

Last 14days: 38pa, 116wrc+
Last 30days: 74pa, 103wrc+
2025 Season: 198pa, 63wrc+
Last 2years: 505pa, 88wrc+
Last 3years: 525pa, 91wrc+


by your own choice sample, you should be screaming for Clement to play more vRHP.
92-93 - Monday, June 30 2025 @ 04:57 PM EDT (#462605) #
1. It's basically impossible for Clement to play MORE against RHP.

2. Your numbers above show exactly why you haven't seen a single complaint (from me) about Clement being in the lineup in June. You ride the hot bat/excellent glove when the alternative is Clase.
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