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In our own way, in our own time.

Heartache spoken here
A house of cards
A castle made of sand
Don't take much to blow away

Hey, we need new thread. 


There will, eventually, be a Report Card and all the usual end-of-season port-mortems. 

Once I make it past the first four stages....
Denial. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance. | 215 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 03:53 PM EST (#472917) #
If only IKF was two feet further down the line..
uglyone - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 03:59 PM EST (#472919) #

The projections will like change substantially by the start of next season, but I just wanted to gather up the final Fangraphs Combined Rest-of-Season projections for our roster heading into the offseason.

the full projections are only available for guys on the active roster, so the guys not on the active roster i have ROS projections from whenever the last time i updated was.....might not be the very final projection for them but it should be pretty close.

an asterisk means that they are about to be free agents.

The pitching projections are a bit messier because the playing time projections get all weird, and also they don't really know how to handle guys that are both starters and relievers.......i think they key here is to just look at the ERA and FIP projections, and assume that they are projecting mostly on the role that they've been in for the most part, not for the role they might have. i.e. so even though Bassitt and Lauer are projected as relievers here, their actual stats projections are probably no different than if they were being slotted in as SP.

Magpie - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 04:41 PM EST (#472921) #
Maybe because I'm old and this isn't my first rodeo, I had passed through Denial ("NOOOO!") and Anger ("God DAMN it!") before Kirk had even made it back to the dugout last night.

I've been stuck on Bargaining ever since, which is probably why those old epic tennis matches have been on my mind. But if you watched Rafael Nadal play stupendous, impossibly great tennis for 5 hours and 53 minutes at Australia in 2012 - and not win, to see Djokovic prevail in the end somehow - it actually changed your understanding of what sports can be. Seriously. It expanded it somehow. Because it was simply impossible to regard Rafael Nadal as a loser that day. It was almost immoral. All you could say was - well, the other guy won.

I'm sure this will pass. I'll think of the 1997 Cleveland Indians, and how they were three outs away from their first championship in 49 years. They didn't get those outs, and lost in extra innings. That will be depressing. So will the realization that Cleveland wouldn't make it back for another 19 years. And that they'd lose in extra innings. Again. That will also be depressing.

And then spring will come.
Spifficus - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 05:32 PM EST (#472923) #
I know the stages of grief are for after a thing happens, but I got started early. I skipped Denial and went through Angry in the 9th (Rojas burnt it out of me). Then it was Bargaining until the end of the game. The post-game interviews and a long night's sleep got me through Depression. And today, I woke up refreshed (my sleep was almost non-existent for a few weeks) and firmly in Acceptance, and looking to see what they might do to get back and get that last win in '26.
SK in NJ - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 06:18 PM EST (#472924) #
I don't think I'll ever get over Hoffman giving up a home run to Rojas. I could live with everything else. Baseball is a game of inches. IKF should have had a bigger lead. The Dodgers made great defensive plays that if they were a split second late on would have resulted in a Jays championship. If Bo Bichette wasn't on one leg, then he scores on the Clement single, and the Jays would have been up 2 in the 9th instead of 1. Those things happen. Bad luck happens. However, giving up a home run to the #9 hitter who never hits home runs when the team was 2 outs away from a World Series will forever be in my head as a fan.

Hoffman gave up the most HR's for a reliever in the AL (2nd in MLB) and the Jays as a team gave up the 6th most home runs in MLB with only 5 bad teams ahead of them. It's actually remarkable that they even got this to point given their pitching staff, but losing because of giving up home runs was unfortunately on brand for this pitching staff. It's something they need to look into next season. Why do pitchers come to Toronto and suddenly start giving up HR's left and right?

Oh well, still not over this. Won't be for a while. Usually I'd be excited about the off-season moves but not now. I kind of wish the lockout that's going to happen next winter would have just happened now. If anyone could use a mental break from baseball, it's Jays fans.
vw_fan17 - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 07:13 PM EST (#472925) #
Why do pitchers come to Toronto and suddenly start giving up HR's left and right?

If it's all pitchers, it's something on the other end of the battery.. I.e. catcher's calling patterns or pitching coach's preferences for certain pitches in certain counts. I already voiced my frustration earlier this year that if we get an 0-2 count, it seems like the modus operandi is ALWAYS to waste 2-3 pitches and then hope you can get a call on a borderline 3-2 pitch - running up pitch counts.. A lot of things went well for this team, but pitch calling seems like it's not ideal.
Petey Baseball - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 08:10 PM EST (#472927) #
Who in the media started with the IKF secondary lead stuff? It is very irritating to see it being repeated over and over again.
You can’t go halfway down the line on a secondary lead. Obviously, people who have been propagating this POV have never played baseball before. Had IKF got down the line as far as people wanted, he’d be picked off and then the same people would be wailing about how bad of a mistake that was.
Four Seamer - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 10:13 PM EST (#472930) #
I get the concern about not being doubled off, but given Varsho hasn’t a line drive on about three weeks, the routine grounder to second was the scenario I would have been game planning for.
dalimon5 - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 10:44 PM EST (#472931) #
Bassitt's inability to start and turn the double play also let a run score.
John Northey - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 10:51 PM EST (#472932) #
Weird gold glove this year - France got it at 1B. Clement didn't get it for utility despite having a league leading 22 DRS overall (split almost evenly between 3B/2B plus 1 at 1B and a 0 at SS) and the winner being far, far behind him. Kirk not getting it I expected (too many voters will look at him and say 'not a ballplayer' thus making subjective votes hard for him to win). What is funny is the Fielding Bible gives out awards for the majors as a whole and Clement won the multi-position award from them facing not just AL but NL fielders as well. Go figure. Hopefully Clement is everyday at one position next year (3B or 2B) thus able to be appreciated by voters more.
John Northey - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 11:19 PM EST (#472933) #
So which of the free agents is most likely to return, and which do you want to return?
  • Bo Bichette - I suspect we'd all like him back, but how much will it cost? I suspect he is OK at 2B going forward (he seemed really good there during the WS despite the injury). A 7+ year deal (ages 28-35) will probably be needed at $30 mil per = $280 mil I'm guessing. MLB Trade Rumors has him as the #1 SS/2B option expecting something like Seimen's $175 mil deal.
  • Shane Bieber - listed in the 2nd tier for starters by MLBTR, listed as a high end #3 arm. Bottom end tier 1 guys they listed at $25-$30 mil per for 5 years so I'd think Bieber would be similar.
  • Chris Bassitt - listed as an 'effective late-career arm' at BR (same link as Bieber) he is expected to get a 1-2 year deal at $15 mil per.
  • Max Scherzer (Same link) - expected to get a 1 year $10-$12 mil deal this time.
  • Isiah Kiner-Falefa - listed at 3B at MLBTR is listed as 'multi position player' but no contract guess. I think it is safe to say well under $10 mil, which is below average for a player on the Jays roster now ($260+ mil expected payroll in '26) so very affordable if they want him.
  • Seranthony Domínguez - "veteran setup guys" at MLBTR 'decent multi-year deal is possible' is the money quote suggesting someone will offer him $10 mil per for 3 I suspect.
  • Ty France: gold glove notwithstanding there is nowhere for him here with Springer, Vlad, and Santander all (hopefully) healthy in 2026. No more than a part-timer now and a 1B/DH who can't hit isn't needed.
Not a lot of FA's to dig into. Bo would be sweet to keep, Bieber would be great to hold, I'd like Bassitt kept around as a #5/long man until a kid or two is ready to step up. Can't see how Scherzer returns, can't imagine the Jays want more of the Dominguez experience, IKF I'd give a minor league deal to but would tell Schneider he isn't to play everyday period.
John Northey - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 11:36 PM EST (#472934) #
FYI: Doing all of this as a way to feel hope again. Dream of a better 2026 when I dream of the Jays winning 100 in the regular season for the first time.

MLBTR also has their top trade candidates and where they might go. Jays factor in as 'place to go' in a few situations...
  • Joe Ryan, RHP, Twins | projected $5.8MM salary; controlled through 2027 via arbitration - Jays on of many, many teams listed as interested.
  • Steven Kwan, OF, Guardians | projected $8.8MM salary; controlled via arbitration through 2027 - an odd one, but Jays were after him in the summer. Best defensive LF in MLB so he fits the Jays MO. Solid 100 OPS+ bat who has reached the 120s twice and been in the 90's twice in his 4 year career.
That's all they had the Jays after. No Jays were listed as possible trade candidates.
Michael - Sunday, November 02 2025 @ 11:45 PM EST (#472935) #
$280 M for Bichette is crazy high I think if you are talking about a 7 year deal. And while I think he's great and deserves to be paid, I'm not sure how much you want to pay for years 8+. If Siemien's 7 year $175M is the comp, I'd do that. I think 7 year, $180 M to be primarily a 2b would be a good fair outcome. Maybe it becomes a $210 M / 10 year deal or a $150M/5 year deal. 5 years is short enough you figure to get all years that rate to be good, and short enough that Bo figures to likely get one more good contract after that (most of the time). So I think 5/150 would be the best deal, but 7/180 or 10/210 would work too. If two years ago never happened, and if Bo was still a fast runner, then you could be talking about the 280-300 or higher contracts, but I don't think Bo hits a 280M contract.
rtcaino - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 12:10 AM EST (#472936) #
I wonder where the ALCS Game 7s rank in terms of the greatest collections of pitching talent on display in this city on any particular night.

Without looking, the 1991 All-Star game would be the top collection of talent. These game 7s, with both teams' stables of aces available, would have to be 2 - 3.

Surely there are many other evenings where the pitching talent was unusually exceptional.
uglyone - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 01:16 AM EST (#472937) #
I'd offer Bo 10/$250m. Nice round numbers.
John Northey - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 01:33 AM EST (#472938) #
Bo will be looking for a statement contract to help other players. He is a strong union man iirc thus will be after a new standard. 2B/SS has been mostly in the sub $200 mil area for awhile. Lindor's $341 mil one is out of reach, as is Turner's $300 mil but Bo will ask for that to start, I suspect. Cano's $240 I think is the biggest for a 2B. So the Jays should be looking at $250 for 10 as a possibility, but will start at $150 for 5 I suspect.
Petey Baseball - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 06:38 AM EST (#472939) #
Four seamer, had IKF led off as far as people wanted, there would have been no Varsho ball in play at all, he would have been picked off easily after the first or second pitch. Varsho is a left handed hitter as well. Easy throw for the catcher. This is likely why Febles and IKF agreed before the at bat that he would have a regular to conservative secondary lead.

Again, Petriello or whoever started this nonsense obviously never played an inning of baseball outside of oopsie ball in their life.
ISLAND BOY - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 07:28 AM EST (#472940) #
Regarding the Gold Glove awards, every winner was first in FRV -Fielding Run Value except for Catcher where Dingler was second, to Alejandro Kirk. Kirkie just doesn't get enough respect.

ayjackson - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 07:52 AM EST (#472941) #
Tangotiger had a Bluesky tweet with pictures and math to once again show the folly of not running through home plate.

What I found interesting, however, were the stills from the release point of the ball home that showed IKF no closer to home than Varsho was to 1B.

I haven't seen a replay of that play showing a wide angle so I otherwise cannot comment on IKF's lead and break from 3B.
metafour - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 08:53 AM EST (#472942) #
Four seamer, had IKF led off as far as people wanted, there would have been no Varsho ball in play at all, he would have been picked off easily after the first or second pitch. Varsho is a left handed hitter as well. Easy throw for the catcher. This is likely why Febles and IKF agreed before the at bat that he would have a regular to conservative secondary lead.

No offense, but this is nonsense. Nobody is saying that he needed to be halfway down the line. If you look at the screenshot of the play, the 3B was playing farther off the base than IKF was. He needed to be at least as far off the base as the 3B was playing (there is zero reason for him to be closer to the base than the defender that is supposed to be protecting it); and this would have been enough for him to easily score. Furthermore, the likelihood of the Dodgers throwing to 3B to attempt to pick him off is extremely low. You think they were going to risk losing the game on a throw to 3B which easily could be botched? No chance. And it gets even worse once you look at the fact the Varsho basically only pulls flyballs or pulls groundballs - he has one of the most extreme batted ball profiles in baseball. There was zero realistic need to fear him lining into a double play or hitting the ball towards third base.

Everything about that play was a choke-job. From IKF's positioning, to his horrible slide attempt at the end. And even with all of that it ended up being so close it needed to go to replay. He lost the game there. And yes, Varsho should have hit it into the air...but he ultimately made enough contact to score the runner had the runner not choked.

bpoz - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 10:10 AM EST (#472943) #
Great season for the Jays.

Off season moves are starting eg Bassitt. No word yet on Bieber's option.

Lukes and Clement are 31/29 years old. They both provided value to the team this year. Beside good D I believe their PAs were good quality in that maybe (not sure) they made the pitcher throw a lot of pitches. This helps drive the starter out of the game.

This off season I will concentrate on all additions. Even the non splashy ones. M Straw did ok. I accurately predicted that Yimi Garcia would sign but did not post this. All the other moves were surprises to me.
ISLAND BOY - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 11:28 AM EST (#472944) #
I would think Bieber will reject the player option at 19 million since he's proven that he's recovered from the TJ surgery and can no doubt command more than that on the open market.
85bluejay - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 11:36 AM EST (#472945) #
Not only do I think IKF should have had a bigger lead but I think is slide actually slowed him down - a head first slide (ala Vladdy) would have gotten him to the plate before the catcher could touch the plate again as initially his feet came off the plate.
Gerry - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 12:11 PM EST (#472946) #
I have moved on to acceptance. There are many, many plays that could have won the WS for the Jays but it does me no good to keep going back and playing what if.
85bluejay - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 12:30 PM EST (#472947) #
Unfortunately, I'm still playing what ifs with the 1985 Jays - why did bobby Cox pitch to George Brett?, pitch Stieb on 3 days rest, left Stieb in too long in game 7 ... and on and on it goes.
adrianveidt - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 01:10 PM EST (#472948) #
I keep thinking about how the Bills made a mistake in keeping Scott Norwood on the roster after Super Bowl 25. It would have been better for all concerned, even Norwood, if they'd cut him immediately. I wonder if the Jays will keep Hoffman? It's OK to blow some saves here and there, but you can't blow that save.
Mike Green - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 02:01 PM EST (#472949) #
My daily newspaper is filled with all kinds of articles about how the 2025 Blue Jays embody some characteristics that we all should aim for more of.  The unity of purpose and the respect for what each member of the club can add was palpable and inspiring.  

Like for Gerry, acceptance came immediately.  It's nothing at all like processing a death, for me at least.  A wonderful season ends, there is a cold winter, and then a new one begins, with most of the elements that made 2025 great.


uglyone - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 02:18 PM EST (#472950) #
Let alone not being crushed, i'm legit not even upset. It's disappointing sure, but this season wasn't just great, it was franchise altering, just when it looked like the franchise was about to capsize into permanent irrelevant.

Starting with the Vladdy signing and continuing on with the zero tolerance for nonperforming players (even with contracts) and through to a big trade deadline and then a super aggressive prospect promotion.... for the first time since the early 90s the team finally actually walked the walk of a big market team prioritizing winning above all.


....and it paid off with getting as close to winning it all as is possible without winning.

and all signs now are that this will the the status quo going forward, and we clearly have the talent base to contend.

Things are so insanely better than they looked in january that i can't help but be stoked, and i can't be sad about the loss even if I try.
John Northey - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 02:25 PM EST (#472951) #
With game 7 listen to the interviews - outside of IKF saying the coach told him to take a short lead, everyone is saying they cost the team the title. From Hoffman over the HR, to Varsho over not getting the run in from 3rd. Heck, even Clement feels he could've done more. It was nice to hear Straw upon hearing how Varsho is blaming himself said he was going to talk to him about it. I'm getting a lot of this from the Deep Left Field podcast - like him or not, Wilner does get players talking. I'll guarantee both Vlad & Bo feel they could've done more too. This was a real team - no blaming each other, only feeling they let the rest down.
John Northey - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 02:45 PM EST (#472952) #
uglyone - thanks for the uplifting post. We all can be sad over the end result, but agreed 100% that this was a 'WOW' year in all respects. 12 months ago we had no idea if the Jays would even try to hold onto Vlad &/or Bo. Heck, was Bo worth holding onto after his first bad year? Springer was washed up so badly many (myself included) would've been fine with the Jays paying someone to take him. Horwitz was the best rookie (a 1B who was playing 2B out of desperation) who had a solid year in Pittsburgh (almost identical to last year overall). Davis Schneider was a failed prospect (77 OPS+ over a full season after his 'wow' 2023). Will Wagner (a 25 year old rookie who was seen as a throw in for a trade) was the big hope. Orelvis Martínez was suspended for PED use right when he was about to get his big chance. The pen was the worst in MLB by a mile and worst ever for the Jays by fWAR (even worse than the 1984 nightmare one and the expansion 100+ loss teams). Our GM and President both were at the end of their contracts and people were wanting their heads on spikes it seemed, along with the manager in some quarters.

Now we have a 'model franchise' that looks like one every player should want to join. Vlad signed for 14 years, we have a super-hotshot kid for the rotation in Trey Yesavage. Addison Barger proved he is an everyday player (be it RF or 3B), Clement showed 2024 wasn't a fluke. Davis Schneider showed projections that had him as a 120 wRC+ player weren't wrong. There were bad things (Anthony Santander sucked when healthy, Leo Jiménez I have trouble imagining as a prospect, Orevis Martinez & Alek Manoah both were released) but so many positives it is impossible to list them all from memory. We'll see if Khal Stephen, Kendry Rojas, Alan Roden, Will Wagner, or Juaron Watts-Brown will make the Jays feel bad about the mid-season trades but I'd happily give up a future star for the ride we got this year.

On to free agency, trades, and debating if Carlos Delgado should go to the HOF - the HOF 'modern era' voting list came out with 8 names - Clemens, Bonds, Delgado, Mattingly, Murphy, Kent, Sheffield, and Fernando Valenzuela. I see the PED crew as having no chance (Clemens-Bonds-Sheffield), with the rest depending on who is part of the final voters. If there are ex-Jays there then Delgado has a shot, ex-Dodgers Fernando. Old school guys will be looking hard at Mattingly & Murphy - both viewed as hard nosed 'played the right way' guys. Kent is a hard one - he played hard/old school but also was a jerk from reports and was part of the PED filled Bonds SF teams. We'll see on Decemeber 7th I guess.
dalimon5 - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 03:33 PM EST (#472953) #
"Let alone not being crushed, i'm legit not even upset. It's disappointing sure, but this season wasn't just great, it was franchise altering, just when it looked like the franchise was about to capsize into permanent irrelevant."


This this this this this. So this.

For offseason I think it's a priority for the FO to resign Bo, Bieber and Bassitt. I would pay Bo 25 - 30 million/year. I expect this FO to move very fast and sign one of Bieber or Bassitt in the next week. Bo will take his time and that's why he's going to cost 300 million because he's going to get offers from Boston, NYY, NYM? and maybe the LAD.

Jays have Tiedemann coming and then next year they have Gausman and possibly Berrios leaving. Yeah maybe Berrios doesn't opt out but maybe he does. I can see this team trading someone like Tiedemann after signing free agent pitchers to go get someone like Kwan.

First Order Priorities:
Re-sign Bo Bichette
Re-sign Daulton Varsho
Re-sign Shane Bieber
uglyone - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 03:35 PM EST (#472954) #
Tiedemann could be a really big deal for us. He was basically doing at age 19-20 what Yesavage did this year at age 21 in the minors. He was already back at 95mpg in july a year after surgery and was back doing full bullpens by the end of the year. He's still my favorite jays prospect. If we suddenly had two young ace-upside kids in the rotation everything would be looking really, really good.
Four Seamer - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 03:39 PM EST (#472955) #
I am basically in lockstep with Gerry and MG’s response - now that I am over the shock of how the final innings unfolded, I can see that it was a wonderful, invigorating season the likes of which we haven’t experienced as Jays fans for a long time, and while a championship would have been the perfect icing on the cake, falling just a fraction short doesn’t diminish the whole. That said, I do permit myself some sadness for the players themselves in falling so agonizingly short of their highest professional aspirations. There are always changes in professional sports and even if the Jays avenge this defeat next fall, it will be a different team celebrating on the field.
Nigel - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 03:41 PM EST (#472956) #
In the grand scheme of things, 2025 gave us much to be thankful for. In addition to the obvious, the regular season product was entertaining and the team played the kind of smart, clean and good defense style of baseball that I love.

Saturday night was just so crushing and wild that I need a bit of a break. I’ll just say that any player “taking responsibility” for the loss is noble but crazy. The Baseball Gods just picked a winner in the bottom of the 8th and so be it. You just have to live with that.
Dave Till - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 03:56 PM EST (#472957) #
The end of the season was disappointing but this is possibly the most enjoyable Blue Jays team I have ever watched. They have obviously closely bonded as a group and pushed each other to accomplish more as a collective than they could have done as individuals. It's all been tremendous fun.

And the franchise is healthier now than it has been in a long time. The ownership and front office have gone all-in on the big market model and it seems to be working. The Jays were close to becoming figures of mockery in MLB because they were always trying to sign the biggest free agents and were always failing ("Ohtani is on a plane to Toronto!"). But no one is laughing now - Toronto will now be a serious option for anyone looking to further their career with a competitive team.

I see the 2025 Jays as being similar to the 1985 Jays in a lot of ways, and the next few years could wind up the same as the late 1980s: a team consistently contending but not necessarily getting as far as we hoped. Whether they ever get to the World Series again depends on luck - the postseason is a giant crapshoot.
Gerry - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 04:33 PM EST (#472958) #
There's one good part of losing, today would be a terrible day for a parade (cold and wet for those not in the GTA).
Glevin - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 04:35 PM EST (#472959) #
"Tiedemann could be a really big deal for us. "

Stanifer too. Both guys also might end up potentially dominant relievers for health/stuff reasons. On offense, Jays don't really have much to do. Re-sign Bo to play 2B, get Santander back and the bench/rotation is Lukes, Schneider, Straw, and Heinemen. Starting pitching is the big need area. Gausman, Yesavage, Berrios Lauer, Francis is top-5 now. Jays need one 1/2 sort of guy and maybe another backend guy. (if they want to spend and get 2 top-3 guys, I'd be very happy) Bullpen will have Hoffman, Garcia, Varland, Sandlin, Fluharty, etc... They can and should add but don't need much. I think someone like Gregory Soto makes a lot of sense as a hard throwing lefty who isn't Little.

Biggest questions after Bo are extensions. Varsho, Gausman, and Springer all free agents after 2026. Gausman will be 36 after deal expires but is still very good pitcher and pitchers can be effective as they get older. Would he go for a 2-year extension? Springer would be 37 and a DH so not sure I'd look to extend more than one year if at all even if he was fantastic this year. Varsho is key. Jays don't have any CF prospects coming through but it's likely Varsho at age 30 will want like a 5-year deal. Long history of steep decline of OF D after 30 but it isn't inevitable. Hope they can get something done.

One general area I'd like the Jays to improve is speed although hard to see with this same cast. The team was 28th in SB in an era where it's really easy to run. Soto led the NL! Josh Naylor was incredible with like 3rd percentile footspeed. If Gimenez is healthy, I think he runs a lot more and Clement and Varsho could also run a fair bit more (Varsho basically was never on 1B this year).
uglyone - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 05:13 PM EST (#472960) #
I like Stanifer but just like i waited on Tiedemann and Yesavage to dominate higher minors before getting too excited i'll wait on Stanifer. After all Stanifer's the same age as Yesavage and hasn't succeeded above A+, while Tiedemann was younger than both and already dominating AA at 19 and AAA at 20.

But I agree the position player roster is pretty much set as soon as they re-sign Bichette.

On the pitching side i hope they target the best possible SP and RP they can find, whether that's FA or trade. But not a whole lot more than that.

dalimon5 - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 06:25 PM EST (#472961) #
Ugly who would you prefer they sign instead of Bieber?
uglyone - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 06:37 PM EST (#472962) #
who's available again? Cease? is he better? i dunno.



anyways, pretty damn funny that the only gold glove winner on by far the best defensive team in baseball is.....

....Ty France.
Glevin - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 06:59 PM EST (#472963) #
Jays got absolutely hosed by GG. Gimenez was easily best 2Bman despite missing a lot of time. Kirk easily best catcher. Clement probably should have won as well and was kind of a toss-up at two positions and won neither.

Not sure who I'd most like as a starter. I have Bieber like Ranger Suarez. Doesn't throw hard, gets good results. Michael King maybe in this group as well. Gallen a little behind those but if Jays think fixable or bad season was flukey, in same range. I like Cease the most because of the swing and miss I think. Valdez would be second but I think he has personality issues which doesn't fit Jays team at all. Anyway, it's definitely a year Jays can add to top of rotation via free agency.
vw_fan17 - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 07:26 PM EST (#472964) #
Not sure if the pitching market is better for signing a starter or a reliever?


Someone mentioned during the WS (on Fox, IIRC) that the Jays wanted to try Varland as a starter? Heck, why not see if we can get good Hoffman for 5-6 innings with 4 days rest? I mean, he wanted to be a starter initially. If it's easier to sign some good relievers, maybe Hoffman is better as a 4th/5th starter?
BlueJayWay - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 07:40 PM EST (#472965) #
Agreed with uglyone. Coming into this season, off a last place finish and Vlad unsigned, there was a real possibility of him and Bichette being traded at the deadline or both leaving in the offseason and then...who knows what. Probably a deep rebuild and with the two popular homegrown stars gone, this franchise might have entered years and years of moribund irrelevancy. 

This season changed all that. Vlad is a Jay for life, they win the division and go to Game 7 of the World Series, unite an entire country. The trajectory of the franchise for the next decade+ has completely changed.
scottt - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 09:48 PM EST (#472966) #
It's like Trump handed out the Gold Gloves.
Completely ridiculous.

Bichette was running poorly before that last injury.
He might be OK at second base, but where does that leave Barger and Clement? 
Barger might not be a platoon player after all.

It seems to me that the Jays relievers too often repeat the same pitch 2 or 3 times instead of mixing things up.
It's the same pitch in the same location over and over except half of them are off the plate.
So either they hang one or the hitter go get it outside the zone.

However, it's not really what happened.

The Smith homer was a bad slider on the heart of the plate.

The Rojas homer was a slider on the bottom of the zone which was following a slider on the top of the zone which should have been strike 3.
Walking the 9th hitter in front of Othani wasn't an option so that third ball call forced a pitch in the zone.

The Muncy homer was a splitter in the middle of the zone.
Can't really blame Yesavage.

The Bassitt walking of Betts was really bad.
Three of the balls were non competitive.
Bassitt, of course, calls his own pitches.
Muncy singled on two consecutive sinkers--trying to get a double play ground ball.
Against Teoscar, a sinker for a called strike, two more sinkers in the strike zone, both miscalled for ball 1 and 2.
A 4th sinker went foul and 5th one--right down the middle-produced an out at second.
Edman than hit a sac fly on a 4-seamer that followed 2 sinkers. All of those were high.

StephenT - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 10:42 PM EST (#472967) #
Best video I've seen of the IKF small lead (a view from behind home plate that shows all the bases, even the 3rd-base coach) (16 second clip):
https://twitter.com/i/status/1984844060654191006

This link has the quotes from IKF (and also the video via the above link):
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/25276826-blue-jays-isiah-kiner-falefa-explains-not-taking-bigger-lead-3rd-base-vs-dodgers

The runner on 1st (Kirk) also had a short lead.  Barger on 2nd had a bigger lead (though he could see the middle infielders in front of him).
Varsho was at bat (Clement was on deck).  The 3 outfielder positions are shown.  There was 1 out, score tied 4-4, bottom of the 9th.

(To me it's hard to believe the coaches wanted the lead at 3rd to be that short.)
SK in NJ - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 10:50 PM EST (#472968) #
Now that I've had a couple of days, I think I agree with ugly's POV on this one. Saturday stunk and will stick with me for a while, but if you told me before 2025 that the Jays would be 2 outs away from a title before they blew it, I probably would have been thrilled with it. The outlook for 2026-beyond does look a lot better, both in terms of the roster/farm system, but more importantly with the perception of the team. I think they gained some new fans and probably became more of a FA destination. We will see.

I think this is the year Rogers has to go big on payroll. With the lockout coming after 2026, and the uncertainty of what the CBA will even look like once 2027-beyond begins, I think you have to play for 2026 as much as you can.

Only thing I will add is that if the Jays bring back IKF, then I might have to reconsider my positive outlook. If there's one player I never want to see play a game in a Jays uniform again, it's him. Hopefully he catches on somewhere else...and hopefully the Jays are high on Leo Jimenez and just use him in the utility spot next season.
John Northey - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 11:08 PM EST (#472969) #
The lineup for 2026 has a few questions...
  • C: set in stone with Kirk/Heineman with Brandon Valenzuela the #3 guy (prospect all D)
  • 1B: Vlad, duh.
  • 2B/3B: here is where things get complex. Clement/Barger could be the combo, but if Bo is resigned then he takes 2B and Clement 3B with Barger in RF, but if not, then it depends on if the Jays can find a good FA/trade who can play 3B or 2B or LF or RF and then shuffle accordingly
  • SS: Gimenez - even if Bo resigns I can't see them putting Bo back there.
  • LF/RF: see 2B/3B - this is a mess. But a good one. Barger in RF if an infielder is signed (Bo or someone else) if not then one corner is Santander and the other is Lukes/Schneider/Loperfido with RJ Schreck and Yohendrick Pinango fighting for a shot as well. Plus you can mix in that the Jays were after Steven Kwan mid-season (best defensive LF in baseball, has 2 years of 120 OPS+ and 2 years in the high 90's), plus it wouldn't be an offseason unless the Jays get rumored to be after the top free agent (Kyle Tucker this year most likely - 140 lifetime OPS+ with a 179 in 2024 but injuries in 24 and 25).
  • CF: Varsho with Straw as the backup. I hope to hear the Jays signing Varsho to a 5 year deal soon (covering ages 29-33) for around $100 mil.
  • DH: Springer (duh). 1 more year, then he can either retire and let his body recover or keep going with someone, but probably not here as the Jays have Santander and 1001 corner OF now. It'll be sad whenever he leaves as he has been fun.
  • SP: Gausman/Berrios/Lauer/Yesavage are locks, just need 1 more - ideally an ace (Cease/Tatsuya Imai/Suárez/Valdez all could be aces, Bieber right there too along with Gallen/Giolito/King/Woodruff) but resigning Bassitt as a 5th/swing man isn't a bad idea either after seeing him be effective in relief this year.
  • RP: Díaz (3 bWAR this year despite being a closer - that ain't easy)/Robert Suarez/Brad Keller are all solid closers which would open up other uses for Hoffman and just make the team more injury safe. Lots of veteran left handers out there too Beeks/Coulombe/Ferguson/Milner and many others. One is bound to be less heart attack inducing than Little.
So what will the Jays do? I expect a strong push on Bo and the assorted starters, maybe a push on for one of the top closers too. I could see a trade clearing out some of the outfield depth to get promising or veteran arms in too. I expect something to happen before December - most likely a Varsho extension or a deal with Bassitt where he understands he'll be used in relief as well as starting. My gut says we'll get a shock deal at some point - something none of us anticipate but will make sense. Perhaps for a 2B or 3B thus keeping Barger in RF should Bo sign elsewhere.
dalimon5 - Monday, November 03 2025 @ 11:43 PM EST (#472970) #
Similar to Vlad I don't see how this ownership will let Bo go to Boston or NY. If you're listening to everything then you understand that it appears that this FO has finally created a special culture which should attract free agents and lead to more winning. Not retaining Bo would instantly impact that cultural achievement.

His performance this year and in the post season and the timing have changed the calculus for this FO and ownership to retain him. 300 million.
slitheringslider - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 01:02 AM EST (#472971) #
Losing the World Series was a bit of a shock the way it did but overall this has been the most enjoyable season for me as a fan since 2015. As disappointing as it is to see Hoffman serve up the HR to Rojas, I don't think it is right to throw him, IKF, or whoever under the bus for making a 'mistake' late and close. No one is throwing Yesavage or Bassitt for giving up the run when they did, they contributed equally to the lost. I remember thinking in my head that Hoffman should just throw a heater down the middle when it was 3 balls so that Ohtani won't come up with runners on, and Rojas is never going to do anything with it. Seriously, it is their 9-hole hitter, even when you make a mistake you're not expecting him to hit it out. Give him credit for rising to the moment and put a good swing on the ball.

Moving on to offseason stuff. I am pretty torn on Bo. I have been vocal that Bo's next contract is likely going to be an albatross for whoever signs him, because players with his profile don't age well (Michael Young, and a less elite Nomar comes to mind). I still stand by that assessment because he doesn't have any supplementary tools like good defence or baserunning that can help him maintain value when his hit tool declines. That said, youth is on his side, even if his production craters on the earlier side, it is still 6 years until he turns 33. However, big market big money teams shouldn't think about the dead money at the end of the contract. All these big money contracts will likely be albatrosses at the end and the contention window is now. If Bo is their best bet of creating a winning roster than they should just back up the brinks truck to his driveway now.

As for pitchers, it is hard to feel that great about any of the FA pitchers. For all the emphasis on vibes and team chemistry, Framber Valdez seems like a non-starter. Suarez throws softer than Bieber, so is it like another Hyun-Jin Ryu? Not necessarily a bad thing but if his command erodes becomes imminently hittable. Both those guys are going to cost more than Bieber I'd rather roll the dice on the devil we know. If we can get Cease that immediately becomes the best option. He has true Ace upside, has the velo we crave, and his peripherals have been steady despite uneven results. What jumps out at me is that he has underperform league average strand rate for 3 years in a row. Are there adjustments he can make pitching out of the stretch that can help him improve with runners on base? In the few years where he was in contention for best pitcher on the planet he was rocking a 74-82% strand rate so maybe it is just multiple years of bad luck?

If we were really to dream, can we get Skubal without giving up Yesavage?
Jonny German - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 07:19 AM EST (#472972) #
It was already amusing that Yesavage is ROY-eligible in 2026, but I hadn't thought about this angle - he could also potentially earn the club a bonus draft pick. Winning the ROY would do it, or finishing top-3 in the Cy Young in one of his pre-arb seasons. Hunter Brown just did it for the Astros.
electric carrot - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 07:37 AM EST (#472973) #
"I am pretty torn on Bo."

I am feeling kind of mercenary about Bo. I think we let go Bo go. I think the wins over the Yanks and Seattle and the loss to LA all point to the fact that don't need Bo, but we do need more pitching.
DiscoStu - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 07:44 AM EST (#472974) #
I think we'll sign Bieber (if he opts out), Dominguez, Michael King and Josh Naylor (and ask him to play right field). Then I think we'd trade Lukes/Straw for a reliever. I think Bo will go to the Dodgers unfortunately.
uglyone - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 07:45 AM EST (#472975) #
Some other comps



Bo Bichette

Age 21-27: 3292pa, .339babip, .294avg, .175iso, 122wrc+

Michael Young

Age 21-27: 2516pa, .323babip, .287avg, .146iso, 93wrc+
Age 28-36: 6096pa, .337babip, .305avg, .139iso, 109wrc+

Nomar

Age 21-27: 2764pa, .331babip, .332avg, .238iso, 139wrc+
Age 28-35: 3353pa, .297babip, .297avg, .183iso, 113wrc+

Altuve

Age 21-27: 4311pa, .339babip, .316avg, .137iso, 124wrc+
Age 28-36: 4385pa, .312babip, .290avg, .189iso, 133wrc+

Dawson

Age 21-27: 3740pa, .305babip, .285avg, .195iso, 123wrc+
Age 28-37: 5917pa, .282babip, .280avg, .213iso, 120wrc+

Yount

Age 21-27: 4258pa, .305babip, .295avg, .166iso, 121wrc+
Age 28-37: 6330pa, .308babip, .307avg, .147iso, 117wrc+

Pedroia

Age 21-27: 3201pa, .313babip, .305avg, .158iso, 121wrc+
Age 29-35: 3476pa, .315babip, .294avg, .124iso, 110wrc+

Marte

Age 21-27: 2455pa, .359babip, .289avg, .158iso, 120wrc+
Age 28-36: 3852pa, .328babip, .282avg, .153iso, 112wrc+

Alomar

Age 21-27: 4453pa, .324babip, .302avg, .126iso, 119wrc+
Age 28-36: 5336pa, .322babip, .302avg, .160iso, 118wrc+

Cano

Age 21-27: 3732pa, .322babip, .309avg, .180iso, 118wrc+
Age 28-39: 5818pa, .312babip, .296avg, .192iso, 128wrc+

Bernie Williams

Age 21-27: 3059pa, .312babip, .285avg, .164iso, 118wrc+
Age 28-37: 5994pa, .322babip, .303avg, .189iso, 130wrc+

JD Martinez

Age 21-27: 2112pa, .335babip, .275avg, .195iso, 118wrc+
Age 28-36: 4753pa, .340babip, .287avg, .240iso, 135wrc+

Trea Turner

Age 21-27: 2383pa, .339babip, .296avg, .184iso, 119wrc+
Age 28-32: 3223pa, .339babip, .298avg, .180iso, 125wrc+
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 08:41 AM EST (#472976) #
DiscoStu, that's a solid offseason but they need someone like Bassitt or Scherzer to help lead, and Straw is thus FO's "glue guy."
soupman - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 09:10 AM EST (#472977) #
There’s a video on Reddit of the whole at bat. IKF takes a lead and then Febles appears to say something and he steps back and then steps back forward for the secondary. After pitch one Febles comes over and literally draws a line in the sand with his foot. IKF doesn’t pass that after that point and it’s where he’s standing that everyone and their mother has used to crucify him since it’s become the sole reason they lost according to them.

I don’t think this means Febles or the staff is the issue, either. I’m just a bit annoyed that IKF is getting threats over this.

scottt - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:02 AM EST (#472978) #
They could keep Bo and Bassitt and the off-season would be done.

The pen right now is Hoffman, Garcia, Varland, Fisher, Little, Nance, Fluharty and Yariel Rodriguez.
Plus Burr, Bruhl, Sandlin and shultz competing for spots. T.J. Brock?

The rotation is Gausman, Yesavage, Berrios, Lauer and Francis.
Plus Bloss, Macko, Estrada, Lucas, Pina and Bastardo competing for spots.
scottt - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:13 AM EST (#472979) #
The only reason there was a close play at the plate is that the infielder didn't play it cleanly.
Almost nobody can score from third on a ball hit to an infielder.
There were at least 2 double plays on hard liners in this series.
That's what was on everybody's mind.
 
It's like the Pages play. It's infuriating because he bowled the other outfielder and still made the play.
It's not a spectacular play if only one guy goes after the ball like they should.
 
It's like the ball wedged on the outfield in game 6 with the outfielders hopping around like little kids.
Jonny German - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:13 AM EST (#472980) #
That “right now” roster is an 80-win team. Adding Bo & Bassitt would get it to 85-ish. There’s no reason to aim so low.

Bring back Bo, absolutely. Like Vlad he’s more valuable to the Jays than to any other team.

Bring back Bassitt if it’s with the understanding that he may be used as a swing man. But no way is he sufficient as the only starting pitching acquisition. My guy will be 37, he may or may not be above average in any role.
rtcaino - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 11:20 AM EST (#472981) #
Leaving Game 7 with my Dad I tried to get a "Let's Go Blue Jays" going... was roundly met with looks of disgust and disapproval.

That was my denial era. Have been more somber in reflection since.
John Northey - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 11:39 AM EST (#472982) #
If all they do is sign Bo & Bassitt then they will be counting big time on kids developing and improving. I don't see Rogers doing that as they want that sweet playoff revenue. Yesavage could regress easily, pitchers are always at risk of injury so you don't want to be counting on health to avoid Francis becoming a key starter again. Lauer easily could regress - he was forgotten in the pen during the WS after all. Berrios looks more like an inning eater best suited for #4/5 slot of the rotation. Bassitt is 37 next season so counting on a lot from him is a mistake.

I have no doubt at all that the Jays will be very much chasing the best starter they can get. Expect them to be talking with Detroit right now about Skubal (if available as rumored the Jays would be foolish not to be asking about him), with a team of employees preparing packages for all the top free agent pitchers as well. I'm certain the Jays have talked with everyone internally about best options and have planned out who they want most, down to #10 or so among starters.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 12:00 PM EST (#472983) #
I think bringing back Bo and Bieber is probably the plan. Not sure how highly the FO values Bo, and I don't think Rogers is going to step in like they did with Vlad, but there are many benefits to keeping Bo and Bieber rather than looking elsewhere (1. don't lose any picks, 2. maintain the good vibes from 2025, and 3. it's arguable that those two are the best/most realistic adds they could make this winter anyway). Of course, both are free agents, and it will take two to tango + money talks.

Also, I think the Jays need to get a closer this winter. Hoffman was protected a bit in October as the Jays wins in the post season were usually laughers, so he didn't have too many nail biters, but aside from Game 7 of the ALCS and Game 3 of the World Series where neither team could hit, the only other real high leverage playoff moment for him resulted in the same type of result that he got in the regular season way too often, which was a ball reaching the seats. I don't know if they should be going for Edwin Diaz or Robert Suarez, but a closer is absolutely a need so Hoffman can slide back into a non-closer role.
Magpie - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 12:23 PM EST (#472984) #
Hoffman gave up the most HR's for a reliever in the AL

Yup. And he hadn't given up a home run in almost two months (one on September 10, none in October), so I guess he was due.

Of course, I also thought Varsho was due for a big hit at some point.

Anyway, I'm done with Bargaining. It did what I needed. I don't get Depressed, so I'm on to the Next Thing!

Uh, Leafs?
bpoz - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 12:24 PM EST (#472985) #
A full season needs about 8 starting pitchers.

Francis is a candidate for #5. I expect the Jays to add 1 more SP. Someone like Scherzer has too important of a reputation to not be in the rotation if healthy because we can't embarrass him. Bassitt too most likely.

Minor injuries will knock out a few starts for the regular SPs which gives Francis an opportunity. I think Lauer and Lucas got opportunities with Lauer earning the spot permanently. A season ending injury to a regular SP makes a hole that causes us to possibly not make the playoffs if our replacement is not good enough. Scherzer only made 17 starts. Francis 14 starts.

A solid #2 like Bieber is needed due to SP shortages which is inevitable. So I like Francis as our 6th. Don't know about #7 & 8.

Spifficus - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 12:25 PM EST (#472986) #
Sign me up for Bo and Bieber and 2 Late Inning Relievers. One a righty co-closer that can be used to partner with Hoffman or usurp the role entirely. The second a dominant lefty with some command, because until Little finds something that he can throw for strikes that doesn't get sent into orbit, he's the last man in the pen.

I'd keep the OF overstuffed, and also keep Barger in the mix at 3B, but I'd look for a faster alternative for IKF.

If Bieber doesn't resign, there are other options. If Bo doesn't, that's where things need to get creative, where you could 'replace' him at 2B, 3B, or LF/RF, depending on the best option.

It is so much better to wake up the morning after the disappointment and actually have expectations for this team.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 12:46 PM EST (#472987) #
First question we need to know is "will Varland be a starter for this team moving forward?"

Second question is "will Rogers pony up for Bo and does Bo have a price that needs to be reached where he will sign or does Bo intend to wait until Christmas and after the Winter Meetings turn draw out the negotiations?"

Both of those questions will impact how the FO moves in my opinion.


Bieber and Bassitt should be quick moves as I don't think either wants to draw things out.


Also is Berrios still part of the team? I heard he wasn't at the World Series
ISLAND BOY - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 01:20 PM EST (#472988) #
There were few sightings of Berrios the whole playoffs which I thought was odd because I saw Bowden Francis and Jaime Garcia at different times.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 01:21 PM EST (#472989) #
If Bo doesn't sign right away - do we give him a qualifying offer? I mean, it makes sense from the draft pick sort of thing, but would it sour his opinion of the team? He already seemed upset by the "this is the way we do arb" stuff..

scottt - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 01:39 PM EST (#472990) #
You get late inning relievers at the trade deadline.
The ones you get over the winter are a total gamble

 I don't think Scherzer has another year left.

Bieber would be fine.


A balanced lineup with 4 right bats, 4 left bats and a switch hitter wouldn't be the worse thing.
Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Clement, Gimenez, Varsho, Lukes, and Santander.
That leaves room for a left bat at second base. 

uglyone - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 01:41 PM EST (#472991) #
I don't think there'll be any complications with Bo re-signing tbh. I think it'll be pretty quick and straightforward.
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 02:17 PM EST (#472992) #
I seem to have had a profoundly different experience that most, so I’m sharing in case there are others out there who might feel this way as well.

I found this loss to be profoundly devastating, to the point where it has seriously damaged my baseball fandom. I am someone who lived for baseball in the summer, and it consumed most of my free time. I listen to 6 different podcasts, watched or listened to every game, read all the content I could find, etc.

When the final out was made, I was overcome with a feeling that I had wasted my time. I still feel that way. Devoting as much time and energy as I do to something so cruel, and random, just feels arbitrary and pointless. I’m happy to read that others can focus on the positives; I cannot. Those moments leading to this result I have never understood the emotional detachment some have here. I think now I get it. Im just not sure I can be a fan in that way, and I also don’t fan to be the kind of fan I was.

Thank you to all the wonderful contributors who have made this such a wonderful place to talk about the game, and learn. I need a long, long break.

uglyone - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 03:18 PM EST (#472993) #
See, i found the past 9yrs to be profoundly devestating and an absolute waste of time.

This year was rejuvenating.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 03:24 PM EST (#472994) #
I've found 2022 and finally 2023 to be devastating. I cut back my viewing time and ultimately gave up the season tickets. I spent less time watching the games (maybe watched 60%-70% of the games on TV) but increased my time listening to podcasts (regularly listen to 5 different Blue Jays related ones).

This year felt a lot more balanced in terms of my enjoyment and of course from September on I spent a lot more time. Now I am rejuvenated also and I re-purchased seats for 2026 and I plan to continue the 60%-70% viewership thing with increased podcast listening since I can have that on in the background and on the move.

Only time I felt like I wasted time this year was 1) west coast losses and 2) the 18 inning game loss

*I downloaded VPN and watched the LCS games from 2am - 6am local time when I was in Italy this fall. I definitely invest time in this team.
John Northey - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 03:55 PM EST (#472995) #
For a few days it hurt bad, but that is normal. The joy of the Jays this past summer was massive. Seeing the crazy ways they'd come back to win, seeing a kid charge from rookie ball to the majors in one year, Vlad going nuts on the Yankees, Springer Dinger, Kirk stealing a base and the team's reaction to it. This has been a very fun ride. Yeah, the ending sucked but damn right up to the last pitch it was possible to win it all - very few fans get to experience that, Seattle fans never have, Colorado fans never got 3 wins in a WS, nor have the Rays, while Milwaukee last won 3 in a WS in 1982 (last 7 went down in order, lost by 3). Poor Expos fans only could dream of the pain we all felt.

So now what? We have an ownership that has shown they are willing to spend (as they learned when this team does well Rogers pockets a lot of money). A team with 2 or 3 needs - a starting pitcher, a reliever, and a slugger who can play one of 2B/3B/LF/RF (ideally 2B or 3B). We have kids ready in the OF (Schreck, Pinango), kids for starting pitching (MLB experience: Macko, Estrada, Bloss; AAA: Tiedemann; AA: Stanifer, Arias, Perez and more). There is potential here. But we also need to keep 1993 in mind - Jays won it all, had 'WOW' prospects at the edge and blew it even though they drafted a HOFer shortly afterwards. And like 1992/93 we have an ugly strike/lockout looming for 2027. So enjoy the good stuff, look forward to a bright 2026 and hope that by some miracle the league and players don't go over a cliff and screw us all in '27.
braden - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 04:24 PM EST (#472996) #
I think there’s definitely something up with the Berrios situation. We know he wasn’t happy about the demotion to the bullpen, he said as much. And his absence throughout the playoffs was noted. The only time I saw him was in street clothes on the field after the ALCS. I have nothing to back this up but I do think he feels scorned and I wouldn’t be shocked if he weren’t here come ST
bpoz - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 04:27 PM EST (#472997) #
IMO only LAD is good enough to excel every year. Everyone else is will we win the division or a WC or miss the playoffs but be competing until the last week or so. These are my realistic expectations for each season. We know who got into the playoffs and we know that 5 teams in the AL won 87-90 games. Which means that they competed until the last few days of the season.

My prediction for the Jays the next 5 years or so is 85-89 wins which makes us competitive until close to the end of the season. That is success because it generates good revenue which means a good payroll. The 85-89 prediction probably sounds a bit negative but I stand by that.

I expect NYY to challenge most years, Boston has a good farm and money so they will be good and the Jays should also be good. I would like/hope TB to be under 500 like they have been the last 2 years. The rest of the AL will fall into place mainly due to payroll restrictions.
uglyone - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 04:36 PM EST (#472998) #
berrios must feel pretty silly now after seeing what his team did without him and missing out on that amazing run (unlike bassitt and scherzer who were active participants even when left off the roster).

but it says bad things about his character and it's going to be hard for him to win back the confidence of his teammates. it would be good for all concerneed if we could move him, even if it means eating salary.

are there any massive-contract SP who are way oveerpaid but still actually good that we might want to take on if it means unloading Berrios' deal?
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 05:37 PM EST (#472999) #
Jose Berrios makes 19 million but it goes up to 24 million after next season so you will need to trade him for a bigger salary than that or a longer contract tenured pitcher. He's due 67 million over 3 years if he doesn't opt out (when his salary goes up).

There's Sonny Gray at 40 million but he only has 1 year left.

There's Eduardo Rodriguez with 57 million over 3 years...

There's Joe Musgrove who has 40 million remaining and 2 years and is coming back from arm injury next season....

If it was me I would trade More creative ideas... 57 million left to pay Josh Hader for 3 years. No way HOU is looking to clear him but if you can make a solid offer for him and include Berrios somehow in that deal it would be a big win.

I also like Luis Severino in Oakland with 42 million left on 2 years. I found this quote from MLBtraderumors.com where Luis Severino is listed in their "Top 40 trade candidates" for this off-season: "The A’s might have to pay some of Severino’s contract down or take back another underwater contract to make a swap work out, but Severino’s strong finish and open distaste for pitching in Sacramento both seem like they’ll prompt GM David Forst to revisit the idea of trading him." I looked him up because I remember he was trash talked by the commentators when he pitched against the Jays but he was absolutely filthy and Buck kept saying he wanted to be traded off the As.
John Northey - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 05:54 PM EST (#473000) #
The A's idea is good - Severino hates being there but was still a reasonable pitcher (4.54 ERA 4.11 FIP 92 ERA+) $25 mil next season, $22 player option for '27 (might be irrelevant if a lockout happens). Berrios (4.17 ERA 4.65 FIP 102 ERA+) $18.7 next year, $24.7 each of the next 2 years (player option). Would give the A's a slightly better pitcher based on '25 stats for 1-3 years at a similar cost. I figure they'll have trouble getting anyone there now after Severino so this might work, Severino is from the DR so Vlad has probably spent time with him over the years and would know if there are any character issues and if he'd be OK coming to Canada. One hopes the Jays talk with Vlad about any potential targets and see if the character issue is a potential problem.

Hard to find matches for 'problem vs problem' contracts. Teams have been a lot smarter it seems, and the bad ones tend to be super-bad (ie: 10 year deals with years to go and guy is hurt - see Washington and Strasburg for an extreme example - still being paid $35 mil by Washington in '26 but just 8 games since they won it all in 2019, 0 since 2022).

My bet right now is chasing Bo & Bieber, then if one or both don't sign adjusting to other free agents with a strong eye on the trade market. Trade market for relief help (one of our many OF'ers should be able to get a half decent middle reliever here). Guaranteed they are looking for another Gimenez/Straw type deal where a club wants to clear out a guy they feel is underperforming but has a few years of control left (Severino is a good example).
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 05:59 PM EST (#473001) #
Severino's numbers in the 2nd half were very strong.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 06:16 PM EST (#473002) #
The dream in that case scenario is Jose Ramirez (no trade clause) for 3 years and 69 million remaining - entering age 33 season. If ever there was a chance to get him (for CLE to trade home and for him to agree) it's likely now.

Imagine getting him without having to give up Barger, that would be crazy if they could resign Bo, keep Barger and trade for Ramirez with someone like Tiedemann or Parker as the center piece.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 06:41 PM EST (#473003) #
Here is BA's projected free agent contracts:

1) Kyle Tucker - 11 years / $360 million
2) Bo Bichette - 8 / 240
3) Framber Valdez - 7 / 220
4) Alex Bregman - 6 / 180
5) Pete Alonso - 7 / 175
6) Dylan Cease - 5 / 160
7) Shane Bieber - 5 / 150
8) Cody Bellinger - 6 / 175
9) Gleyber Torres - 7 / 160
10) Kyle Schwarber - 3 / 110
11) Edwin Diaz - 6 / 125
12) Munetaka Murakami - 7 / 140
13) Trent Grisham - 5 / 130
14) Trevor Story - 4 / 110
15) Michael King - 4 / 110
16) Eugenio Suarez - 3 / 75
17) Kazuma Okamoto - 5 / 85
18) Josh Naylor - 6 / 120
19) Ranger Suarez - 3 / 75
20) Devin Williams - 4 / 75
21) Brandon Woodruff - 1 / 27.5
22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45
23) Jack Flaherty - 3 / 72
24) Ryan Helsley - 4 / 70
25) Lucas Giolito - 3 / 65

Sign me up for Bichette, Schwarber or Naylor (one year not ideal while Springer is here but they can figure it out).

I really like Bieber and think he still has lots of upside but I may prefer Michael King at a lower price.
pooks137 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 07:46 PM EST (#473004) #
I found this loss to be profoundly devastating, to the point where it has seriously damaged my baseball fandom. I am someone who lived for baseball in the summer, and it consumed most of my free time. I listen to 6 different podcasts, watched or listened to every game, read all the content I could find, etc.

When the final out was made, I was overcome with a feeling that I had wasted my time. I still feel that way. Devoting as much time and energy as I do to something so cruel, and random, just feels arbitrary and pointless. I’m happy to read that others can focus on the positives;

A lot of your thoughts certainly mirror my own.

I watched most of the regular season games this year. And most of the playoffs.

After watching the crushing Gm 7 defeat, I wasn't really angry or saddened. Just mostly numb & disappointed.

The rational part of me started thinking that losing in extra innings in Gm 7 of the World Series is a very off-putting narrative for future fandom.

If the Jays had won, a narrative could be formed that one can get excited about winning the championship and trying to defend it next year.

If the Jays had lost earlier in the playoffs to the Yankees or the Mariners, or even got absolutely curbstomped in the Fall Classic by the Dodgers, one could create a narrative that the Jays had a partially successful season, had made big gains, but still had a lot of room to build & improve.

But losing by a run in Gm 7 seems like a runner-up pinnacle with very little to dream on. The team came just a hair short. It's very unlikely that the lightning in the bottle of 2025 can ever be recreated.

After getting 99% of the way there, then failing spectacularly, what's the point of doing it all over again?

John Northey - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 08:14 PM EST (#473005) #
Right away I'm going 'way too low on Tucker' as stars are now $40+ mil per year it seems with extra years tacked on for luxury tax purposes. Tucker I'd put at $400+ mil for 10 years (140 OPS+ lifetime, RF with a gold glove to his name). Bo looks high vs other estimate (Most have him sub $200 mil, but my bet is 10/$250). Cease sub $200 mil seems wishful thinking to me. If he really is just $10 mil more than Bieber I'd go for him, but King would be damn tempting instead if 1/3rd cheaper like BA estimates.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 08:17 PM EST (#473006) #
"After getting 99% of the way there, then failing spectacularly, what's the point of doing it all over again?"

My two cents here if it helps is that this team can get back to the World Series with the revamped culture, budget and core that they have demonstrated now exists. The point of doing it over again is to change the outcome next time. I don't think they failed spectacularly. They're good enough to get back and can get better to win it. The LA freaking Dodgers had to use their top pitcher to win 3 games out of 4 in order to win the World Series against this team.

I think it's going to be exciting to see the Blue Jays defend their new title as AL champion and then augment the team to go to the World Series.
Michael - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 08:42 PM EST (#473007) #
King seems like a steal at that price. I'm not convinced he isn't better than Cease. I'd have Bieber > King > Cease in terms of ability/likely expected results - but all pretty close (Bieber significantly better track record, but still recovery from surgery looked decent but not yet 100%, so it makes all 3 pretty close overall).

Naylor doesn't really make sense as he's a below average 1B/OF defensively and we don't really have room for that not just with Vlad + Springer, but also Santander.

Bregman is a good fit, but 6 years is about 3 years too long. I'd rather do Bo 8/240 than Bregman 6/180. Note Bo in 8 years is younger than Bregman in 6. Also note elsewhere are estimating 8/212 for Bo, which I think is more fair of a contract than 240.
lexomatic - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:10 PM EST (#473008) #
Basketball game wrap-up mentioend Bieber opted in to contract at 16m for next year. 
Gerry - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:12 PM EST (#473009) #
Heyman is reporting it. Quelle surprise.
uglyone - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:14 PM EST (#473010) #
BIEBR OPTS IN!!!
uglyone - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:16 PM EST (#473011) #
we are a real franchise again.

feels really good.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:23 PM EST (#473012) #
A player of this magnitude choosing to stay with the Jays for one year rather than test the market is fantastic. We all felt depressed about how the season ended but the silver lining is that it’s very possible that this is a franchise that players, and notably star players, will take seriously moving forward. This is great news for 2026.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:30 PM EST (#473013) #
HOLY HELL this is AMAZING! Love me some Shane Bieber. Now get Bo and Varsh signed. This is massive.
Gerry - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:36 PM EST (#473014) #
I wonder if he has some sort of deal with the Jays. Otherwise he is taking a risk of leaving some money on the table.

Maybe he believes in himself and if he has a big year in 2026, full year post TJ, then he can get an even bigger contract this time next year.

Or he has enough money and just enjoyed being on the Jays (unlikely).
rtcaino - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:39 PM EST (#473015) #
"Maybe he believes in himself and if he has a big year in 2026, full year post TJ, then he can get an even bigger contract this time next year."

I think this is it.

Although! He could have perhaps gotten more $ on a one year deal in a more pitcher friendly environment. So, some positive vibes at play here.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:42 PM EST (#473016) #
My first thought is that this is a precursor to an extension. We will see. Either way, gives the Jays a lot more room to work with to add more talent for 2026.
greenfrog - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:44 PM EST (#473017) #
Excellent news.

Btw, Tim Britton of The Athletic just posted an article listing his projected free contracts for this offseason. His projection for Bieber? 3 years, $63 million. So if this news is correct, the Blue Jays came in way below the general perception of his likely market value.
John Northey - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:46 PM EST (#473018) #
Major shock - a player choosing a below market option over free agency just to stay here? Sounds like the Jays positive vibes really hit him. Maybe after 7 years of being on a team too cheap to compete beyond its weak division (Cleveland) he really enjoyed being in a positive environment. Might be worth reading what his wife said online...
greenfrog - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 10:46 PM EST (#473019) #
* free agent

Yes I could see this being a precursor to an extension as well. That makes more sense than a mere $16m option. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
rtcaino - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 11:06 PM EST (#473020) #
"Btw, Tim Britton of The Athletic just posted an article listing his projected free contracts for this offseason. His projection for Bieber? 3 years, $63 million."

Seems low.

Would have to be a no brainer for the brain trust.
Marlow - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 11:15 PM EST (#473021) #
Bieber coming back makes it an amazing start to the offseason.

If they can bring back Bichette, and with Bassitt as a swing man, the Jays are well on their way to making it to the playoffs again.

As others alluded to, Berrios may be the odd man out, especially if they can sign another starter.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, November 04 2025 @ 11:28 PM EST (#473022) #
word on the street is Varland will be stretched out to be a starter.

I think Bieber has an agreed extension or he has a commitment from management that some other players are returning like Bo, Bassitt or even Max Scherzer.

Last year he only considered playing/signing with two teams - Cleveland and Boston.
John Northey - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 12:30 AM EST (#473023) #
So the 2026 rotation is currently...

Gausman-Bieber-Yesavage (locks, all potential #1's) Berrios-Lauer with Varland being stretched out to see if he can be one too. Plus kids - Bloss, Tiedemann, Stanifer, and others in the wings. Not to mention Estrada, Macko, and Lucas who all are possible starters too.

At this point the Jays have to be looking at trading Berrios to free up space and then go after another top notch starter if they can. As the saying goes, you can never have too much pitching. Lauer & Varland can both flip flop pen/starting as needed, kids can stay in the minors until fully set.

Options post-2025: 3: Yesavage, Fisher, Sandlin, plus anyone who has yet to be on a 40 man roster; 2: Fluharty, Estrada, Schultz, Pina; 1: Little, Varland, Bloss, Macko, Francis, Lucas; No options: Bastardo, Tate, Bruihl, Lauer, Nance, Rodriguez

A few tough choices coming up there - the no option guys have a few issues. If the Red Sox make a deal then Bastardo could be sent down (listed as no options due to being a rule 5 pick), Tate will certainly be released, as I suspect will Bruihl. But Nance you'd like to keep around but if he cannot be yo-yo'ed between here and Buffalo he might be lost anyways. Lauer & Yariel are locks I'd think. Bloss, Macko, Francis, and Lucas are all needing to prove they belong this year while being on the shuttle between AAA/Majors.

The pen is pretty full, but many could be dumped easily I figure: Hoffman-Garcia-Varland-Fisher-Little-Nance-Fluharty-Rodriguez is a nice 8 but could be better. Lord knows if Garcia is ready, if Varland goes to the rotation then Lauer goes back to the pen and a better setup is needed (or closer with Hoffman moved to setup). Another ace for the rotation and suddenly the rotation becomes Dodger level - Gausman-Bieber-Yesavage-FA-Berrios/Lauer/Varland. And damn if that wouldn't be nice. A kid might earn a slot mid-season giving us a problem like 2025 had with 6 solid starters. A damn fine problem to have.
Kelekin - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 12:34 AM EST (#473024) #
Not enough talk about Woodruff, but he came back healthy and looked every bit the top pitcher he always has been.
Glevin - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 12:57 AM EST (#473025) #
Absolutely incredible. Maybe Bieber and Jays are working on extension but for right now, Jays got one of the better starters in free agency for 1/$12 which is insane. Bieber signing gives Jays so much (more) financial wiggle room. Rotation is now Gausman, Bieber, Yesavage, Berrios, and Lauer. If they are going to make Varland a starter they don't need another starter but would need two relievers. Ideally Jays still chase a front-end starter if not but also OK just getting a backend swing-man like (like Bassit) to give team enough depth while trying to develop a couple of their pitching prospects into major league pitchers.

For me what will be interesting is if the Jays can make upgrades even if mostly set. That is, flipping guys like Berrios or Santander who are fine but taking roster space and instead going for guys who are better than fine like Cease and Tucker. I doubt it but would be cool if possible.

Woodruff's average fastball was down 3-4 MPH from where he was. Coming off surgery, maybe it comes back but there's definitely risk there. Imanaga's stuff was way down and was very hittable and looks like a starter for a non-contender to me.
Glevin - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 01:10 AM EST (#473026) #
There are also some interesting pitchers coming over from Japan. Imai seemingly the best. Throws mid 90-s and projects as like a #3 sort of guy but a couple of other guys as well. Anthony Kay is one of them. He was brilliant in Japan and could make sense as another swingman sort if Jays think they can get more out of him. Tons of options there though.
John Northey - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 01:29 AM EST (#473027) #
Glevin - a few good ideas there I agree with - if Bassitt is reasonable on expectations (swingman status, $10-$15 for a year, option based on appearances or something) then great. Maybe he can have a second career in the pen. His assorted pitches might work well with flamethrowers around him. Makes everyone better with different looks while also giving the Jays a very good backup if any starter goes down.

If Berrios can be traded (or by some miracle Santander) then more salary space freed up and a top notch starter from Woodruff to King to Cease could be added.

Ah, the offseason when all things are possible, especially after signing a top notch starter for just $12 mil.
Michael - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 01:50 AM EST (#473028) #
That Bieber news is fantastic. The contract is fantastic, as people point out that is 1/12 in marginal cost for the Jays - a huge steal. And that public statement of quality of organization is really, really good too.
StephenT - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 02:02 AM EST (#473029) #
I found the video that soupman (accurately) described at https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1onp3lt/alternative_angle_of_isiah_kinerfalefa_lead_off/ (96 seconds shows whole at bat).

From its vantage point (left-field corner) the lead actually looks more reasonable.  (Thanks soupman.)

There's another comment there that it's actually not that unusual to get so close (though I haven't fact-checked):
"It happens. Rangers were one out away from winning the World Series twice in one game.
Cleveland had a chance to put away the Cubs 3 times and failed."

P.S. There's a Whitey Herzog quote I remember from 38 or 40 years ago that has stuck with me, something like 'if you lose Game 7 of the World Series, it means you had a heck of a year'.
scottt - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 03:23 AM EST (#473030) #
Wow! Amazing news.

It seems like they really are having lots of fun playing for us
scottt - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 03:28 AM EST (#473031) #
Also, thank God IKF is the one the mad fans went after.

They pushed Bieber to game 4 to make sure he had a great start. This gave him a great platform to opt out.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 07:33 AM EST (#473032) #
Rotation of Gausman, Bieber, Yesavage, Lauer and probably Varland is solid but lacks an ace. It would be the best 1-5 in the AL East in terms of floor... but probably third or fourth in ceiling.

The pen needs 3-4 guys. I don't advocate for big FA market signings necessarily as most top relievers come from the scrap heap (milb free agency, waivers, small moves). But Suarez might be a good fit. Bassitt back as a swing guy would be huge.

One other big need is to get faster/more athletic..
Too many slow base-to-base situations/runners late in 2025. Santander will only make it worse.

To trade Berrios, you'd probably have to get him down to $15M with the salary offset - a big if he's healthy which it sounds like he isn't and it's worse than they've let on... which is also why the Toronto media isnt talking about it.
scottt - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 08:37 AM EST (#473033) #
Berrios has 2 player options. Nobody is picking that up.
However, Berrios will rebound. Maybe he's not a machine anymore, but he's a pretty good number #3 when healthy.

The Toronto media is kinda like the guys who wanted to break IKF's legs.

If Gausman, Bieberr and Yesavage are good enough to start World Series game, they're good enough for anything. 
I think the pen is fine. They just need to pick up some guys on minor league contract as depth pieces. Now, the Dodgers need 5-6 guys.
bpoz - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 08:37 AM EST (#473034) #
The Jays made a lot of money due to a fantastic 2025. So Rogers with the guidance of Shapiro want to repeat.

Bieber not opting out was not much of a surprise to me. I wanted to post that but did not mainly because speculating very late in the season while trying to win 1st overall was not right IMO. It was SSS so I felt he was not going to get the big long term contract. A good 2026 will get him a better deal. Good means 180IP, 200IP is better and 160IP or less is not that good. I expect prices in general to increase year by year. So waiting is good. He could of opted out and signed for $19mil/yr which is a comfortable price. Getting $22-25/mil/yr was probably not going to happen now but could happen later.
scottt - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 08:59 AM EST (#473035) #
Overall, the Blue Jays seem to have fallen in love with the splitter.
Gausman and Bassitt use it. Hoffman uses it. Francis had a lot of success with it last year and now Yesavage.

It seems to me that they could use someone who throws a plus change up.
That should the "different look" to go after.
A pitch that looks like the fastball all the way in.

Yariel Rodriguez has to focus on being a late inning guy now and narrow it down to 3 pitches.
Varland and Lauer can be stretched and compete for the 5th spot.

I expect them to add Valenzuela as the 3rd catcher.
It's time to trade Leo Jimenez. They can use Kasevich if they need a SS.

It's funny that there's not enough room for all the folks who really want back and are not just paying lip service.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 09:48 AM EST (#473036) #
Bieber taking the option is very good news.  The club now has no pressing needs, in my view.  There are, of course, a number of different ways that they could improve from where they are now, including, obviously, signing Bichette to be their everyday second baseman.  It's all about finances, which, at this point, interests me less and less.
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 11:13 AM EST (#473037) #
Great news on Bieber. I really thought he'd opt out and either resign with the Jays or someone else.

I do think the Jays have a pressing need and that's to signa proven closer like Eugenio Suarez or Edwin Diaz. If you're a serious contender, you can't have someone as homer-prone as Hoffman closing out games.
uglyone - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 11:23 AM EST (#473038) #
i agree with Marc tho that paying for RP is not a great approach. look at the RP the Dodgers bought last offseason.

and i'd also prefer not to turn varland into a starter.


The more i look at the numbers the more i just want us to pay up for Cease. He's got the consistent heavy workload, the velo, and the K% to make me believ in his floor and his ceiling. His shallow arsenal is a bit of a worry but i think that's my #1 choice.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 11:31 AM EST (#473039) #
I agree with Ugly... Varland is better as a reliever and the pen sorely needs a high-velo guy that can actually be somewhat consistent. I'm probably very much in the minority but I'd also like to see Tiedemann as a high-velo lefty reliever to pair with Fluharty. You can always stretch him out later.

And Cease is the only SP on the FA market that I like (maybe Michael King at the right price).
dalimon5 - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 11:32 AM EST (#473040) #
Ok so I think I'm lined up with Ugly and Marc. Go get Cease or trade for Ryan or Gore and you have a World Series caliber rotation with a true ace.

I am not optimistic about Yesavage. My eyes and heart tell me he will be "found out" and become an average #3 SP which is still good. I think he and Tiedemann will both be mid rotation starters "after the dust settles," and league adjusts. They will have #2 upside. Marc I'd love to hear your thoughts on those two, their floor, ceiling and compare. I know you touched on Ricky a bit in the summer when I was asking.

Barger - Ugly and Marc do you guys see him as a legit top 4 bat in the line up or a trade assett?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 11:33 AM EST (#473041) #
*intended to post before your comment on Tiedemann. Wow as a reliever...would he be sitting triple digits?
soupman - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 11:55 AM EST (#473042) #
I’m also ion the Cease or desist wagon at the top of the market. There are a few names that I think are interesting, chief among them is former can’t miss prospect Lucas Giolito, who had a very good year in Boston and just opted out. He is still only 31. I’m not sure it’s a fit here, and he likely wants more than the $19m he had lined up.

Another former supernova prospect is Luis Patino who was dealing prior to more elbow issues. The Padres out righted him at the end of the year, but maybe there’s something there if he can avoid surgery again (he had just come back quickly from TJ before issues cropped up). Since the Jays have managed a lot of guys through this maybe they can offer rehab a d take a flier. He’s exactly the kind of high velo and upside arm they could use in the pen.
Kelekin - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 12:18 PM EST (#473043) #
I like the idea of Tiedemann as a reliever too. As tempting as his starting potential is, we're at 140 innings over 4 years. He could be a shutdown reliever and work his way into a closer role. Plus, if he's going to be a starter, how many innings can he even get to this year?
hypobole - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 12:31 PM EST (#473044) #
Ever since the final out, the focus seems to have been on what went wrong - the IKF lead/slide, the Hoffman HR in particular. A bit lost has been the fact the Jays authored one of the greatest postseason offensive performances ever. Some snippets from FG on the offensive show the Jays put up this postseason:

"The Blue Jays ran a wRC+ of 128 in the playoffs. That’s the 15th-highest mark in postseason history. It puts them in the 97th percentile."

"One thing makes all this even more impressive: the expanded postseason. It’s one thing to have a great series, but the Blue Jays kept this up for their entire postseason run, which consisted of a four-game series and two seven-game series. It’s a lot harder to keep up an outlier performance like that over 18 games and 750 plate appearances – the most ever."




hypobole - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 12:33 PM EST (#473045) #
Link:
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/fangraphs-weekly-mailbag-november-3-2025/
uglyone - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 01:01 PM EST (#473046) #
especially since it came against what was apparently 3 great pitching staffs.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 01:06 PM EST (#473047) #
Of course, they outscored the opponents significantly in each series.  If you look at the regular season and the playoffs combined, it's pretty clear that the Blue Jays had the best set of position players in the league by a wide margin once one accounts for offence and defence.  Which may help to explain why Shane Bieber opted in.  
Kelekin - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 01:37 PM EST (#473048) #
FG Top 50 MLB Free Agents: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2026-top-50-mlb-free-agents/

Clemens thinks 5/155 for Cease. Bichette 7/203. Suarez 5/130. Devin Williams 2/24 (I'd take that in a heartbeat), Helsley 2//24 (I'd take that risk too), Woodruff 2/34.
uglyone - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 02:05 PM EST (#473049) #
If we did get Bo and Cease


1. DH Springer 36
2. LF Lukes 31
3. 1B Guerrero 27
4. 2B Bichette 28
5. RF Barger 26
6. C Kirk 27
7. CF Varsho 29
8. 3B Clement 30
9. SS Gimenez 27

B. HT Santander 31
B. OF Straw 32
B. IF Schneider 27
B. C Heineman 35

X. HT Schreck 25 --- Pinango 24
X. OF Loperfido 27 - Clase 24
X. IF Jimenez 25 --- Kasvich 25
X. C Valenzuela 25 -



1. RH Gausman 35
2. RH Cease 30
3. RH Bieber 31
4. RH Yesavage 22
5. RH Berrios 32

1. RH Hoffman 33
2. RH Varland 28
3. LH Little 29
4. RH Fisher 25
5. LH Fluharty 24
6. RH Rodriguez 29
7. LH Lauer 31
8. RH Nance 35

X. LH Tiedemann 23
X. RH Bloss 25
X. RH Sandlin 29
X. RH Francis 30
X. RH Schultz 28

dalimon5 - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 02:13 PM EST (#473050) #
Pretty damn good. This entire offseason may hinge on Bo's appetite to sign a fair deal soon or bide his time and max out.
bpoz - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 02:40 PM EST (#473051) #
Tiedemann should be fully recovered by ST. He had his surgery at the end of July 2024 so 19 months to recover. How many innings will they allow him to pitch in 2026?

Bloss had his surgery mid May 2025 so 14 months to recover + rehab means about Mid August 2026. He could be a reliever in the ML.

Fernando Perez finished Vancouver dominantly. Then dominated NH. 6 starts with shutouts in 3 of his last 4. 6IP, 7IP and 5IP shutouts. If he gets to AAA within 2 months he could be in the ML by the end of the year. He has room to fill out. Just 22 years old in Feb 2026.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 03:05 PM EST (#473052) #
I think some projections are out and they have RT going strong to June before his next scheduled injury. Call me hurt after Dustin and dear Nate journeys...
jerjapan - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 04:13 PM EST (#473053) #
"If we did get Bo and Cease"

If that were to be the entirety of the offseason, I'd be happy. Nance is the only name listed that I'm not sure is a big leaguer, and he looked good this year.

Varland looks great as a 'relief ace', so unless the club knows something I don't, I'd be happy to see him back in that role.

I haven't been posting much lately, but I really enjoyed coming here and reading you all during that playoff run.

Honestly, you guys deserved a run like that. Best fans on the internet!
SK in NJ - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 04:52 PM EST (#473054) #
Tiedemann has thrown 140 innings in his entire career so far (2022-25). Using him as a high leverage multi inning reliever might not only be a great idea, but could be the most realistic way of getting value out of him. Expecting him to hold up as a starter is probably a pipe dream.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 05:45 PM EST (#473055) #
I'd be ok with foregoing Bichette or Bregman and using the money for Cease, Suarez (the closer), and Bassitt (as a swingman) and trading for 2B/LF Brendan Donovan, who is reportedly available from the money-saving Cardinals.

Cease, Gausman, Bieber, Yesavage, Lauer (Berrios - INJ?)
Suarez, Hoffman, Varland, Fluharty, Tiedemann, Bassitt, Fisher, Y. Rodriguez, (Y. Garcia INJ?)
Kirk, Guerrero Jr., Donovan, Barger, Gimenez, Springer, Santander, Varsho, Lukes
Heineman, Clement (playing most days), D. Schneider, Straw

40-man depth:
SP: Lucas, Francis, Bloss (INJ)
RP: Macko, Schultz, Estrada, Little
C: Valenzuela
IF: Kasevich
OF: Loperfido, V. Arias
Plus 3 open spots

Non-40-man AAA Depth
RP: R. Jennings
OF: RJ Schreck (and Y. Pinango although a milb FA if not added to 40-man)
dalimon5 - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 06:28 PM EST (#473056) #
Interesting.
scottt - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 06:40 PM EST (#473057) #
What they have now, before the off-season, is better than what they started the year with. 
Barnes and Lovelady were on the opening day roster!

I have no doubts that these guys will be highly motivated during the winter.

The big X-factor is that 2026 is a World Baseball Classic year.
Many guys will have an abbreviated spring training. 
Jacob - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 07:10 PM EST (#473058) #
I like the idea of resigning Bo at 2B because of the bat potential and the RHB. What I have been wondering about the past few days is what to do with Anthony Santander. The switch hitting is nice as is the power but where does he play without forcing out playing time from Barger, Clement,the Lukes/Schneider tandem and the Loperfido experiment? Certainly I prefer Bo or Springer at DH over Santander. I also see some possibility of Loperfido as being the back-up 1B for Vladdy when he needs rest or if he gets injured.

Maybe Santander can stick if he can be the back-up 1B as he did play 72 innings there in 2023 with 1 OOA according to Baseball Savant but still the bulk of his time would be in the OF.

Is it palatable to view his signing as unnecessary given the development of the team during 2025 and eat $25-$30 million of the remaining $70 million in order to free up $40-$45 million that can contribute to extending Varsho or signing Bo? Does any team take him at $40-$45 million over 4 years? Does it create bad vibes to sign a guy and dump him a year afterwards from the perspective of potential incoming free agents or future Jays free agents?

My first pass at solving this "problem" is to pay down $30 million of his salary and send him to the Rockies for Tyler Freeman. Freeman doesn't seem like a great fielder but is a right-handed bat and hits the ball hard though with few home runs. He still has an option left too and would likely cost little in terms of salary. Kind of a lottery ticket with some Cleveland history that the team seems to like. Perhaps they can coax a bit more power into his bat. A passing glance at his Baseball Savant page has him comparable to a right-handed Nathan Lukes. This doesn't look as bad if Bo is resigned as then there is some power from the right side of the plate.

Brendan Donovan is a bit intriguing but what would we have to give up to a rebuilding Cardinals team for him given that he's 2 years from free agency and will only cost them around $5.5 million (Fangraph's forecast). Nimmala? Tiedemann and Johnny King (because the Cards want young arms)? They certainly don't need OFs of the type the Jays have to offer (unless it's Barger).

Just thinking aloud.
Glevin - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 08:23 PM EST (#473059) #
Santander would force out Lukes/Schneider and Loperfido but he should. Loperfido is depth and needs to do better in AAA before being considered for Majors. Lukes is actually slightly older than Santander and looks ideally like 4th OF. I like Schneider but he does seem like he's best used in certain situations and not everyday.
John Northey - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 10:16 PM EST (#473060) #
The OF situation is pretty locked in. Santander-Varsho-Barger with Straw as the backup. One of Lukes/Schneider can go with that while the other has to be traded imo. Springer also an option but will mostly be a DH.

Now, if Barger goes to 3B (Bo signs elsewhere, no other substitute found) then RF is opened up for Santander to go to and Lukes/Schneider platoon in LF.

The offense I'm not so worried about, a backup IF needed (hopefully better than IKF, but not critical - Jimenez out of options so has to make the team or be let go) but that is secondary.

Pitching is the issue - perfect world one more #1 level guy, Cease, Valdez, Suarez are all projected as 3+ fWAR pitchers for 2026. 2.5+ fWAR FA's are Woodruff, King, Kelly - the Jays really shouldn't be digging deeper than those guys unless it is a killer deal and/or their scouts love a guy and feel he is going to do better than projection systems think. Bassitt is at 2.1 btw, just under Imanaga and ahead of Eflin. Scherzer is at 1.4 (24 starts is the projection with a 4.42 ERA).

Relief help is more variable, as always. Edwin Díaz is #1 for projection at 1.3 fWAR, then LHP Jordan Montgomery at 0.9 followed by Ryan Helsley & Devin Williams. Steven Matz is actually the #2 projected LH reliever - having a good start to a second life as a reliever.
John Northey - Wednesday, November 05 2025 @ 10:24 PM EST (#473061) #
Note: Diaz opted out of a two years and $38M deal so he'll want $20 mil per for 3 at least I'd figure. Ouch. Rogers could afford it but will they want to spend that much on a closer, even a lock down like him? 28-3 Sv-Bl last year, 86% success lifetime. Just 4 HR given up in 2025 vs Hoffman's 15.
scottt - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 08:59 AM EST (#473062) #
ESPN ranks Bo 7th amongst the free agents and projects him at 5/130M.
That's not so bad.
 
Semien got 7/175M but he hit 45 HR, runs well and plays good defense.
scottt - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 09:06 AM EST (#473063) #
The Jays doesn't need RHB.
That was a need at the deadline, but that was only to platoon Lukes and Barger.
earlweaverfan - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 10:08 AM EST (#473064) #
Several phases of thought about this postseason. First, the Jays have an easy task as FAs should be keen to join the Jays, given how close they came and the chance to join a band of brothers. Second, the Jays have a harder task; it’s not just about finding, e.g., a top flight starter, it’s about finding a low ego, team-oriented star who will add to the camaraderie and collaborative spirit. Third, it’s an easy task because the reputation of Canada and Toronto and the fans has been showcased for all the world to see. Fourth, it’s a harder task because so many positions are filled and the available options to make a change are fewer because even if you were willing to swap out some people, you could undermine close team relationships. Fifth, it’s harder because some much admired team leaders are on the margin - think Bassitt if he wants to start or Sherzer.


Still, these are all first class problems to have!
Mike Green - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 10:27 AM EST (#473065) #
Early fangraphs projections for the various outfield options other than Varsho:
Santander: 609 PA, .230/.309/.434, 106 wRC+, -1 BsR, -12 Def, 1.3 fWAR
Lukes  462 PA, .273/.337/.406, 109 wRC+, -1 BsR, -5 Def, 1.6 fWAR
Schneider 399 PA, .219/.326/.395, 105 wRC+, 0 BsR, -2Def, 1.4fWAR
Straw 147 PA, .232/.295/.311, 72 wRC+, 1 BsR, 0 Def, 0.1 fWAR
Barger 525 PA, .249/.318/.419 110 wRC+, -1BsR, -1 Def, 2.2 fWAR

I don't agree with all of the projections, but I would rather see Lukes and/or Barger in right-field than Santander against a RHP, at this point.  I hope that the club doesn't just give him a full-time job with minimal work in spring training, because of his contract.  His good health should not be assumed and he really needs good health to be a useful full-timer.

SK in NJ - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 10:29 AM EST (#473066) #
Lukes should be a 4th outfielder. Usually 4th OF’s get a lot of playing time anyway due to injuries, and having one that is around league average offensively is a good luxury. If Bichette is re-signed, then I would imagine that will be the set up. Santander should start over Lukes. The difference between a potential 120 wRC+ bat with 30-40 HR pop and a 100 wRC+ bat with limited power is pretty significant. No reason to have Santander in a bench role, nor do I think that would ever happen.

Maybe it’s partly due to losing to the Dodgers but I think targeting Imai to create that Japanese pipeline would be huge for the Jays. The Dodgers have a billion starters so they may not be looking to spend big there. The Jays would have a real shot if the Dodgers were not in the way, and there’s youth, upside, and a splitter (which the Jays love) in Imai’s favor. Curious to see if the Jays are in on him. They should probably target a controllable starter somewhere.
uglyone - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 11:04 AM EST (#473067) #
Just a note - not saying it matters - but the current Fangraphs projections would just be the Steamer projections alone. They will be combined with the Zips projections whenever they come out but right now it's only Steamer.

and I'm not sure if Steamer changes their projections between now and the start of the season.
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 11:20 AM EST (#473068) #
Don Mattingly is leaving the Blue Jays. He's not retiring from baseball so I don't know if he wants to manage again or just wants to work on a team closer to home.
John Northey - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 12:08 PM EST (#473069) #
The options this winter are interesting. Japan has a major HR hitter coming over in Munetaka Murakami (entering age 26 season) who hit 56 HR in 2022 and plays 3B/1B, he bats left which would be nice to have in the middle of the order. But can he do well in MLB? He K's a lot and current FG projection has him at 237/363/454 126 wRC+ after a 210 season in Japan - from 2020 to now his worst wRC+ was 153 in 2023. Of course, if signed then you'd be assuming Bo goes elsewhere. Also of note is Kazuma Okamoto, another 3B/1B projected as a 252/340/451 hitter (117 wRC+) entering his age 30 season (bats right) who has generally hit 30-40 HR in Japan.

For pitchers Tatsuya Imai is the best coming from Japan - ZIPS projects him at a 95 ERA+ entering his age 28 season, throws right. Certainly worth digging into I'd think.

So a few interesting options from Japan - 2 at 3B (shift Clement to 2B unless Bo signs up again, then Clement becomes a super-utility guy you mix in however you can) and a pitcher. This is where scouting becomes critical - can these guys adjust to the majors? Murakami has a massive range of potential - from 50 HR to a guy who K's so much he can't survive in the majors - but damn if his LH bat wouldn't be perfect for this team.
dalimon5 - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 12:57 PM EST (#473070) #
Isn't Santander contract a non-issue? I remember we discussed his contract was about 13 million or so annually after deferments.
Kelekin - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 01:19 PM EST (#473071) #
14.3m AAV.
Gerry - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 01:24 PM EST (#473072) #
The Jays have given Bo the qualifying offer, no surprise there.

Jimi Garcia, Nick Sandlin, Bowden Francis and Angel Bastardo reinstated from IL.

Ryan Burr and Dillon Tate clear waivers and elect free agency.

Robinson Pina clears waivers and is assigned to AAA.
Kelekin - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 01:52 PM EST (#473074) #
I do hope they can get Burr back on a minor league deal.
Michael - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 02:34 PM EST (#473076) #
5/130M for Bo seems like a low contract offer since the other suggestions were 7 year over 200M. I thought 5/150 was a fair offer and wouldn't be surprised if someone goes higher. I think 5/130 is likely to be a steal and good value for whoever signs that (hopefully us). Note he was at about $17.6M this past year and a QO is about $22M so 5 year at 26M/year is not that much above that level. And 5 years is all prime aged.
dalimon5 - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 04:24 PM EST (#473077) #
I like Rare better tbh
John Northey - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 05:14 PM EST (#473080) #
No real surprises there (thanks Gerry for saving me from looking for it). Garcia and Sandlin are locks for the pen if healthy in spring. Francis fighting for a role (still has 1 more option left), Bastardo who knows (big negative is he missed AFL so the Jays have nothing competitive to judge him on, just what they see in rehab). Tate we all knew was going to be let go, same for Burr. Pina (2 options left) and Burr (0 options) would both be nice to keep around in AAA but hardly critical pieces.

QO to...Kyle Tucker, OF, Cubs; Kyle Schwarber, OF/DH, Phillies; Bo Bichette, SS/2B, Blue Jays; Framber Valdez, LHP, Astros; Dylan Cease, RHP, Padres; Ranger Suarez, LHP, Phillies; Edwin Diaz, RHP, Mets; Zac Gallen, RHP, D-backs; Shota Imanaga, LHP, Cubs; Michael King, RHP, Padres; Trent Grisham, OF, Yankees; Gleyber Torres, 2B, Tigers; Brandon Woodruff, RHP, Brewers;

Guys who were expected to but didn't include: Lucas Giolito, Robert Suarez, Devin Williams, Luis Arraez. There are a few there the Jays might have an interest in (the 2 Suarez pitchers, Ranger a starter, Robert a reliever, plus the assorted other starting pitchers potentially - Valdez, Cease, Giolito, King, Imanaga, Gallen and the closer Diaz).

If they lose Bo they just get a compensation pick after the fourth round has been completed. The Jays might say 'screw it' too due to the high cost - as a competitive tax payor they'd lose their second- and fifth-highest selections, as well as $1 million from their international bonus pool for the upcoming signing period. If they sign multiple qualified free agents, they would forfeit their third- and sixth-highest picks as well. Basically if they sign one, they might as well sign 2 as the 3rd and 6th highest picks are minimal value vs the $1 mil international bonus pool and 2nd/5th picks that signing anyone will cost.

I'd expect the Jays to be more after the non-compensation guys due to the value draft picks and IFA's have. We will see I guess.

Of note: Pete Fairbanks was let go by the Rays (they had an $11 mil option on him). He'd be a nice guy to have in the pen imo. He was a 12+ k/9 guy for years, then the last 2 dropped below 9 k/9 but over 107 games 105 2/3 IP he was still very effective (3.15 ERA 50 saves vs 9 blown with just 18% of inherited runners scoring). He'd be a very solid setup/#2 closer to have with Hoffman as a mix/match. Plus no draft pick compensation.
Glevin - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 05:33 PM EST (#473081) #
Fairbanks at $11M seems very reasonable. Like, I'd give him significantly more than that. Shocked Tampa declined it but not really. So many teams just refuse to spend money.
Glevin - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 06:43 PM EST (#473082) #
Of all the QO, I think Woodruff and Imanaga are most likely to accept.
uglyone - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 07:37 PM EST (#473083) #
Those STEAMER projections in full...



DH Springer (36): 123wrc+, 2.7war/650
LF Lukes (31): 109wrc+, 2..3war/650
1B Guerrero (27): 153wrc+, 4.8war/650
2B Bichette (28): 120wrc+, 4.0war/650
RF Barger (26): 110wrc+, 2.9war/650
C Alejandro (27): 121wrc+, 5.9war/650
CF Varsho (29): 100wrc+, 2.2war/650
3B Clement (30): 99wrc+, 2.2war/650
SS Gimenez (27): 94wrc+, 2.6war/65

HT Santander (31): 106wrc+, 1.4war/650
OF Straw (32): 72wrc+, 0.4war/650
IF Schneider (27): 105wrc+, 2.3war/650
C Heineman (35): 81wrc+, 3.0war/650

UT Kennedy (27): 91wrc+, 0.0war/650
OF Schreck (25): 96wrc+, 0.0war/650
IF Jimenez (25): 95wrc+, 2.3war/650
C Valenzuela (25): 66wrc+, 0.0war/650




RH Bieber (31): 3.87era, 3.77fip
RH Yesavage (22): 3.86era, 3.90fip
RH Gausman (35): 4.05era, 3.95fip
RH Berrios (32): 4.52era, 4.53fip
LH Lauer (31): 4.56era, 4.72fip

LH Tiedemann (23): 4.23era, 4.35fip
RH Francis (30): 4.49era, 4.55fip


RH Varland (28): 3.44era, 3.48fip
RH Hoffman (33): 3.46era, 3.48fip
LH Little (29): 3.43era, 3.73fip
RH Garcia (35): 3.63era, 3.66fip
RH Nance (34): 3.83era, 3.79fip
LH Fluharty (24): 3.96era, 4.18fip
RH FIsher (25): 4.04era, 4.07fip
RH Rodriguez (29): 4.04era, 4.15fip

LH Bruihl (28): 3.96era, 4.18fip
RH Pina (27): 4.08era, 4.14fip
RH Schultz (28): 4.27era, 4.37fip
RH Sandlin (29): 4.28era, 4.43fip
#We'reSoFucked
uglyone - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 07:38 PM EST (#473084) #
er apologize for that hashtag there that was a copypaste mistake.
SK in NJ - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 08:23 PM EST (#473085) #
During Atkins' press conference, he was asked about Hoffman as the closer, and the response was:

"The great thing about Jeff is he’s not married to that (closer role) … I think he would be open to anything that makes us better.”

Hopefully this means they are targeting a closer this winter. I don't think I want to see Hoffman pitching in the 9th inning ever again after 2025.
Glevin - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 08:48 PM EST (#473086) #
I don't care if Hoffman stays closer. If Jays don't abuse him like last year I think he's probably fine as a closer. What I want is more late inning options. If Hoffman is struggling or needs a day of, I want options. I really like Soto who is pretty good but I think can be even better with some coaching and would give the Jays a late-inning lefty. Other than that, I'd rather not use a comp pick on a reliever so don't like Diaz and would like shorter term deals with relievers. Definitely a lot available. Williams, Suarez, Fairbanks, Iglesias, Weaver, etc...
uglyone - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 08:48 PM EST (#473087) #
the current champs didnt have a closer.
Glevin - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 09:33 PM EST (#473088) #
I'm fine with no closer as well. Relievers are unpredictable and volitile so getting more talented arms is always good.
John Northey - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 09:50 PM EST (#473089) #
Looking at BR's top 50 FA and likely destinations the Jays show up a lot.
  • #1 Kyle Tucker: 11 years $400 mil - Jays listed as a potential suitor (along with Dodgers & Phillies) mostly due to the 3 teams all being willing to spend
  • #2 Bo Bichette - every one of them (4) predict he'll resign here. 8 years $208 mil seems possible.
  • #5 Alex Bregman: 6/$160M: expected to go back to Boston but Jays listed along with the Angels, Mariners, Mets, and Phillies as possibilities.
  • #6 Framber Valdez, SP: five years, $150M: again, Jays listed as a possibility (sensing a theme)
  • #8 Cody Bellinger, OF/1B: five years, $140M: yep, listed as a 'possibility'
  • #10 Ranger Suarez: 5/$115 - one has the Jays signing him, 2 the Cubs, 1 the Giants.
  • #13 Edwin Diaz, RP: four years, $82M: 1 has the Jays signing him, the other 3 have Dodgers/NYY/Giants - basically this will be a bidding war that will be decided by who he wants to be with.
  • #16 Devin Williams, RP: four years, $68M: one has him going here, others have Giants, Mets, Dodgers. Could be a fit.
  • #21 Robert Suarez, RP: three years, $48M: listed as a possibility
  • #23 Jorge Polanco, 2B/3B: three years, $42M: listed as a possibility
  • #24 Chris Bassitt, SP: two years, $38M: listed as 'may try to get him back' but sees others as more likely
  • #25 Merrill Kelly, SP: two years, $36M: listed as may make a bid
  • #37 Gleyber Torres, 2B: one year, $22.025M: if Bo doesn't resign might go after
  • #38 Justin Verlander, SP: one year, $22M: listed as 'makes sense'
  • #43 Seranthony Dominguez, RP: two years, $18M: one has the Jays keeping him, A's, Braves, Cubs also listed
  • #44 Pete Fairbanks, RP: two years, $18M: one has the Jays, others are Marlins (twice), Cubs
  • #45 Gregory Soto, RP: two years, $16M: two have the Jays, others are Mets & A's
  • #48 Max Scherzer, SP: one year, $15M: one has the Jays, others are Guardians, Tigers, and Giants
Phew. Lots of possibilities. Can't see Tucker, Bregman or Bellinger as real possibilities unless Bo leaves and they feel a need for a big splash. Don't know why, but I like Devin Williams despite his blowing up real good in NY. Maybe that is exactly why - he still pitched well, but his price came way down (no QO) after being a premium closer for years. With Hoffman around he could feel less pressure here perhaps and be able to succeed.
dalimon5 - Thursday, November 06 2025 @ 11:51 PM EST (#473090) #
If Jaime Garcia was available as another closer then Jeff Hoffman would have excelled imho.
uglyone - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 12:33 AM EST (#473091) #
I wonder what Bo and Tucker's defensive reputations would be right now if Bo was playing 2B his whole career and Kyle was playing CF.
John Northey - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 12:49 AM EST (#473092) #
So add Fairbanks & Devin Williams and the pen becomes a killer pen. We'd have 3 good closers with those 2 plus Hoffman, then Garcia, Varland, Rodriguez as locks. Plus Little, Fluharty, Fisher to fill 2 slots between the 3 of them. If the Jays could do that I'd expect Rodriguez to be part of a trade to get more help in the rotation or elsewhere. But where to get help? By fWAR...
  • C: 2nd; 1B: 8th; 2B: 13th; 3B: 10th; SS: 8th; LF: 13th; CF: 4th; RF: 13th; DH: 4th;
  • SP: 23rd; RP: 18th;
  • Defense: #1
Well, that makes it a bit painfully obvious. The only positions the Jays weren't top half of the majors in were Starting and Relief.

What killed the rotation was that only Gausman & Bassitt had 2 fWAR+ last year, and Berrios was the only other to crack 1, Lauer was 0.8. Francis dragged it down big time with his -0.8, but everyone else was -0.2 to 0.4 (ie: statistically the same as 0 pretty much).

No question the rotation and pen are where the Jays need to focus after signing Bo (or a replacement for him). There are lots of quality free agent relievers who don't have a QO dragging them down (Suarez, Fairbanks, Helsley, Williams, Matz, etc.) and the Jays just need to get 2 of them to make the pen much deeper. Heck, Bassitt could be one if he is willing to move to the pen. Rotation they need to find a #1 to go with Gausman-Yesavage-Bieber as Gausman is old, Yesavage young, and Bieber recovering - all with high risks associated. Just look at how fast Ryu ended, Manoah fell apart, and recovery from Tommy John isn't a straight line. Outside of the Japan pipeline (Tatsuya Imai) the best non-QO guy is probably Merrill Kelly. So this will probably be a trade situation for the Jays unless someone slips through the cracks and becomes cheap in spite of their QO (not betting on that).
uglyone - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 12:50 AM EST (#473093) #
Fairbanks' K% dropped off a cliff the past couple years he might be done.

And williams was terrible all yesr long no?
Michael - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 04:59 AM EST (#473094) #
While it is true we had weakness at SP/RP this past year, we are already in a much better place than last year given the late season promotions/additions. How many teams have a rotation that looks as good or better than:


Bieber, Gausman, Yesavage, Berrios, Lauer, Tiedemann, Varland

The top 3 rate to be right up there with anyone, Berrios is a fine #3 in the #4 spot, and allowing Lauer/Tiedemann/Varland fight for the #5 is good.

This isn't to say I wouldn't love to try to land another #1 or something (you can never have too many starters), but just this is a good rotation already.

The pen needs help (but relievers are hard to figure out).
uglyone - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 07:56 AM EST (#473095) #
Yeah it's better than we looked going into last year with Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt, Scherzer, Francis.....but still could use a sizeable upgrade.

If we're not going to be able to get a true ace to top the rotation then i'd like to at least make up for that by having fewer question marks on the backend (and yeah all of Berrios, Lauer, Tiedemann, Varland are very large question marks). One question mark slot is fine but two is asking for trouble imo.

SK in NJ - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 08:15 AM EST (#473096) #
The Jays need a closer because that’s how John Schneider manages the bullpen. He generally improvises before the 9th but in the 9th he uses his closer. He was unwilling to use anyone else other than Hoffman even as the Jays almost blew the division lead. Edwin Diaz is probably too rich but if you can get someone like Robert Suarez or Devin Williams on a short term deal then I think it’s worth the gamble. At least we know with Hoffman in the pen that maybe Schneider wouldn’t use his new closer 4 out of 5 days as he could plug Hoffman in there from time to time. As a full time closer, Hoffman should not be that guy. Learn from your mistakes.
Glevin - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 09:34 AM EST (#473097) #
Agree with Ugly on starting. If the top starters are too expensive or Jays don't like their underlying numbers, Jays still need to add a depth starter and there are plenty available. One starter, one hitter (Bo or replacement) and one or two relievers is the most straightforward way forward but I'm sure there are creative things Jays can do as well.
scottt - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 09:42 AM EST (#473098) #
I don't think the closer needs to be his team's best reliever.
I have to assume that Garcia and Sandlin will bounce back next year.

I wouldn't drop a couple of draft picks on a reliever with a QO attached.
The price for Bieber was a second rounder.

SK in NJ - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 10:05 AM EST (#473099) #
The FA market is littered with mid to #2 level starters in upside, with varying degrees of risk (Woodruff, Cease, Imai, Suarez, Valdez, King). With a lockout coming next winter, my guess is a lot of teams will sit the off season out to make their financial situation seem more dire than it actually is, so there’s a real chance for a team like the Jays to come up with some big players. There appear to be too many SP options and not enough teams guaranteed to be big spenders, IMO. Someone’s price and/or market will drop. I think the Jays end up with at least one of the names mentioned above. On the hitting side, Bichette seems like the most logical fit, even though it’s debatable whether whatever contract he gets will age well.
uglyone - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 10:28 AM EST (#473101) #
For the record Atkins clearly mentioned wanting to be in the SP trade market as much as the FA market.
soupman - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 11:15 AM EST (#473102) #
The Rangers are probably looking to rebuild and DeGrom has shown he’s healthy. Last time his elbow was repaired he pitched for 6 years without issue other than the pandemic derailing him. He got labelled “injury prone” because once his issues cropped up in 2021, he tried to pitch through them instead of just going under the knife. Guys that elite can pitch well into their late 30s and he still has the velo when he wants it. The numbers back up the eye test.

By contrast, Ohtani has had as many surgeries already and is younger, yet not regarded as injury prone.

The rumours at the deadline were that Texas wanted to shed payroll, and if the Rangers are truly ready to rebuild, maybe DeGrom and Semien would be a good way to add without giving up too much.
Marc Hulet - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 01:22 PM EST (#473103) #
Given how much team chemistry has been brought up by the front office and players, I doubt there is anyway Framber ends up in Toronto... He was a regular complainer and also threw at his own catcher.

And this is my regular reminder that the best bullpens are usually made up from minor signings, castoffs and less heralded milb players... look at how well LA's big ticket relievers did... and, well, Hoffman.
Michael - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 02:50 PM EST (#473109) #
I hadn't noticed this (nor the Seattle donations) mentioned before, but thought it a good story worth highlighting: https://www.mlb.com/news/dodgers-fans-donate-to-toronto-pediatric-hospital
vw_fan17 - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 03:49 PM EST (#473110) #
Fairbanks at $11M seems very reasonable. Like, I'd give him significantly more than that. Shocked Tampa declined it but not really. So many teams just refuse to spend money.

According to B-R, aside from his rookie season with Hou (IIRC), he had the highest FIP of his career last season. If he's worth $20M and everyone would be willing to pay that, I can't imagine Tampa wouldn't have picked up the option and traded him to get something back in return?

Not saying I know either way (he's done or Tampa was foolish).
vw_fan17 - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 03:50 PM EST (#473111) #
Thanks, Michael. That's very heartwarming to read.
Mike Green - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 04:25 PM EST (#473112) #
Check out the defence projections on the Fangraphs Blue Jay depth chart here: 
https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=ALL&teamid=14

Here are the highlights heading southbound: Kirk +9.5, Heineman +1.9, Straw +0.7, Jimenez +0.3...Clement -0.8, Gimenez -1.3 and at the bottom Varsho -3.7.  
Obviously they need some quality control.  
uglyone - Friday, November 07 2025 @ 06:48 PM EST (#473115) #
Yeah projections definitely have the toughest time projecting defense. They seem to be especially harsh on CFs as they age.
greenfrog - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 08:59 AM EST (#473120) #
Do scouts think Murakami can emerge as a viable third baseman in the majors (despite his high K rate and lack of stellar defense)? If so, he could be an interesting alternative to Bo, with Murakami playing third base and Clement playing second base.
greenfrog - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 09:55 AM EST (#473121) #
Just read The Athletic’s profile of Murakami. He sounds like a risky addition. He has 70- or 80-grade power, but a K rate close to 30%, below-average defense at third base, and a bit of an injury history (“a broken toe that ended his 2024 season, then an offseason elbow surgery, then an oblique injury and subsequent setback”).

The Athletic also profiled Tatsuya Imai (possibly a #3 SP in the majors with good but inconsistent stuff) and Kazuma Okamoto (power-hitting corner IF type, age 29 and more of a pure hitter than Murakami but with less power).
John Northey - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:09 PM EST (#473123) #
Murakami is a high risk high reward guy - precisely the type I want the Jays to chase. Yeah, the odd blowout happens (Santander) but you also get 'wow' moments like Yesavage (skipped by most other teams due to some risk they saw).

I feel good about the Jays right now and their ability to evaluate risk. If they did get him, they could mix in Clement at 3B for late innings or even to start vs LHP in 2026, then move Murakami to DH for 2027, splitting DH/1B with Vlad. Clement could be a super-utility guy who plays nearly everyday alternating all positions to give guys rest while improving defense everywhere but CF and maybe SS. The lineup would be killer. Springer (DH)-Murakami (3B)-Vlad (1B)-Bo (2B)-Barger (RF)-Kirk (C)-Varsho (CF)-Santander (LF)-Gimenez (SS) - only #9 would be a weak spot and if Santander starts hitting like he did pre-signing he could move up easily. If no Bo then shift everyone up a spot and put 2B as Clement in the 8 hole. The Yankees would be given a run for their money in power with this lineup and the Jays still would have killer defense, just shifting the weak spot from SS (Bo) to 3B - given how Bo looked in the playoffs on bad legs I think he might be a plus defender at 2B.
Mike Green - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:15 PM EST (#473124) #
Okamoto interests me- I do like the broad base of offensive skills.  Whether he can play third base adequately is one question.  
bpoz - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:21 PM EST (#473125) #
With Seattle and LAD going to 7 games each, the Jays must have made as much money as possible. Any idea of how much money the Jays pulled in? Gate receipts and TV revenue would have been ++.
scottt - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:27 PM EST (#473126) #
Well, it's not clear if he's an MLB bat or not.
Santander makes a lot of outs on balls in play. Not the same thing at all.
John Northey - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:30 PM EST (#473127) #
Another thing to think about is how do the guys we have rank by WAR and who is better? Using Steamer (easiest projection system to use right now for this purpose)...
  • C: Kirk #2 - we ain't getting Cal Raleigh (#1)
  • 1B: Vlad #1 - OK, can't do better
  • 2B: Clement #24 - not actually listed, but took his WAR at 3B and put him at 2B. Bo's 3.6 at SS would make him #2 at 2B.
  • 3B: Barger #17/Clement #23/Murakami (ZIPS has at 3.4 WAR which would be 5th best - Bregman at 3.6 is ranked higher and is a free agent as well)
  • LF: Schneider #31/Lukes #32 combined (Platoon) would be #9, Kyle Schwarber (FA) slightly higher. Santander would be #38 but is at only 1 WAR (if healthy he'd be better).
  • CF: Varsho #22 with negative defense (????) - this one makes zero sense and makes me question all rankings from Steamer this year.
  • RF: Barger #15 - seems low to me, but the 110 wRC+ makes sense, a slightly negative defense makes sense too given his creative routes out there, which I expect to improve if he is left there instead of flip flopping 3B/RF.
  • DH: Springer listed in RF for some bizarre reason, but is a DH now - he'd be ranked #5 if moved there directly. Only one ranked better who might be available is Kyle Schwarber (FA).
So a few oddities there. 2B/3B/LF/CF/RF all looking like improvements are needed but their bizarre defense makes me think Varsho is fine in CF, Barger might be fine in RF, leaving LF as a decent platoon or leave Santander there and hope he is good. Murakami would improve a lot of stuff, as would resigning Bo - do both and the IF is set for 5 years with Clement as the high end backup at a cheap price - Vlad-Bo-Gimenez-Murakami with Clement would be sweet. OF of Santander-Varsho-Barger with Straw as backup is solid, Springer an A1 DH. That leaves a killer C combo in Kirk/Heineman and 1 slot for Schneider/Lukes/whoever. That would be a very strong contender imo.
scottt - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:32 PM EST (#473128) #
Not sure about TV revenues. It's all ads based.
Gate revenues--when all is included--are probably around 75M from what I read. 
It's not like they can spend beyond the Luxury tax without penalties.
John Northey - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:35 PM EST (#473129) #
bpoz - found this article which suggests, using extremely conservative numbers, that the Jays pulled in $75+ mil extra in revenue without factoring in local TV money (which is high since Rogers owns Sportsnet and they were getting well over a million viewers per game - numbers no other club can dream of from local TV). Very safe to say the extra playoff revenue would have been enough to cover nearly 100% of any deal Bo signs this winter.
John Northey - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:36 PM EST (#473130) #
One thing to factor into that article - they estimate under $500 per ticket. As anyone who bought tickets knows they were selling for well over 2 times that and the Jays I'm certain got a big cut of that bonus revenue. The fees alone were over $200 per ticket (as I know all too well). Talk about a major rip off.
scottt - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:39 PM EST (#473131) #
Obviously the projection factors in time missed due to injuries.
You can't really add up guys who play different positions.

WAR is position dependent. You can't just take WAR at SS and move that 2B.

uglyone - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 01:54 PM EST (#473132) #
technically WAR is meant to be position independant. that's kinda exactly what it's for.
greenfrog - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 02:29 PM EST (#473133) #
I would like to see Bo return but is he willing to play second base (where he seems to best fit now)? And how big of a contract is he looking for? With his below-average defense and speed/baserunning, along with his injury history over the last couple of years, how much money and how many years should the Blue Jays offer him?

Ben Clemens of Fangraphs predicts 7/$203m for Bichette. Tim Britton of The Athletic's projects 8/$212m for him. It wouldn't surprise me to see some team make a higher bid than that, so that they can add a high-calibre bat to their lineup for at least the next few years.
uglyone - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 03:14 PM EST (#473134) #
tbh i think he'd be happy to play 2B. and he definitely wants to stay.

I think if we offer him either of those contracts he's back for sure. it won't take a bidding war.
Michael - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 05:01 PM EST (#473135) #
While WAR is position independent, you can't take a player with 2 WAR at one position and assume they are worth 2 WAR at another position.

Clement's WAR at 3B would likely go up moving to 2B because 2B usually hit less than 3B (and Clement's defense might be worth more at 2B too) so his hitting line would be worth more. Similarly Bo's SS WAR would likely go down moving to 2B because a SS hits less than a 2B (however because Bo is theorized to be a less bad defender at 2B than SS maybe the defensive change would make up some/all of the difference).

In other words a player that has league average defense and is worth say 1.5 WAR based on their hitting at 1B, wouldn't be worth 1.5 WAR at SS even if they could play league average SS defense. A bat that is like a 1B at SS would be quite a bit more valuable. Conversely a 1.5 WAR SS who played average defense at SS would be worth less than that if you made them a 1B, because the bat wouldn't play as well.

The position independent nature is your team should be just as good if you have a 4 WAR SS and a 1 WAR 1B as if you have a 1 WAR SS and a 4 WAR 1B. Moreover, a 4 WAR SS would be a fair trade for a 4 WAR 1B.
John Northey - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 05:13 PM EST (#473136) #
So what is the ideal, perfect winter? For $ I'll use MLBTR estimates, for sake of neutrality.
  • Resigning Bo (8 years $208 mil = $26 mil per year)
  • Signing a top starter, say Framber Valdez (seems to have most rumors, plus is a LH which would be nice to add in) 5/$150 mil = $30 mil per
  • Signing 2 relievers (LH & RH), ideally closer potential. Devin Williams 4/$68 = $17 per, Gregory Soto 2/$16 = $8 per.
  • Bonus: Power LH bat for heart of order, Munetaka Murakami 8/$180 = $22.5 per
So that would add up to 26+30+17+8+22.5 = $103.5 mil per year and make the Jays an easy favorite to win. Cot's has the Jays at $238,019,723 for luxury tax in 2026 right now (arbitration estimates factored in). So adding these guys all together would push that to $341.5 mil which is still well shy of the Dodgers $415 mil for 2025 but far ahead of the Jays $278.8 in '25. Would Rogers be willing to go that far? I seriously doubt it. Easy cuts - cut Valdez ($30 per) for Ranger Suarez (5/$115 = $23 mil per), cut Williams ($17) for Pete Fairbanks (2/$18 = $9 per) to save $17 mil, now down to $324.5. Cut Murakami and be down to $302 mil, now in range of last years factoring in a touch of inflation.

Basically, it comes down to choices. Do you add 2 relievers, a starter, Bo, and Murakami? Then the payroll goes up to very high levels. Luxury Tax hits at $244 mil, then goes up for each $20 mil added, maxing out at $304 mil. Safe to say the Jays want to avoid hitting the maximum even though they can afford it most likely given the high TV ratings that Rogers greatly benefits from and the packed stadium I'd expect for all of 2026 and any playoff revenue. Winning the AL added at least 2 bonus home dates in the playoffs which added greatly to the Jays profits in '25. I wouldn't be shocked if they cheap out on the relief help and add just guys making sub $5 mil who are recovering from either injuries or bad years, get a $15 mil starter, thus freeing up more cash. Might try to do deferred payments for Bo (good for him in taxes, perhaps to butter it up do a big bonus at start of each year instead of standard salary pay - better tax wise as I recall). Berrios, Santander, and Rodriguez all could help by being traded (tax hits of $18.7/$13.7/$6.4 respectively) but only Rodriguez would be an easy trade. The players I listed are premium ones, but any player signed will cost similar if we want higher end ones. Outside of a trade for a high end kid who is early in arbitration or pre-arbitration. But those would require giving up substantial assets in the minors, far beyond what I suspect the Jays are willing to give up.

The choices the Jays make will be interesting. At least Murakami won't require cap space like Susaki did last winter, thus avoiding the drama that added. Plus it'll be over in 45 days no matter what. I'd love to see Murakami here just because the idea of a second 80 power (Vlad was rated there) from the left side is such a beautiful thing to dream of, but I'm betting on Seattle or the usual Dodgers (that all Japanese players seem to migrate towards). Another power option is Eugenio Suarez - 3/$63 mil, but had 49 HR in majors, entering age 34 season - I see him as a guy who might linger awhile on the market due to age and high K rates (K's around 200 times a year - averaged 199.5 K per 162 G for 2021-2025) but no QO so tempting.

Yes, with Clement we don't need a 3B but the Jays want more offense and Suarez or Murakami would provide that in spades and open up Clement to be used everywhere as needed (train him a bit in the OF so he can be a near everyday player without a single position).
John Northey - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 05:19 PM EST (#473137) #
Funny, just pictured the Jays having a Suarez winter...
  • Eugenio Suarez, 3B: three years, $63M ($21 per)
  • Robert Suarez, RP: three years, $48M ($16 per)
  • Ranger Suarez, SP: five years, $115M ($23 per)
That would fill the 3 areas of need and totally confuse broadcasters and fans - Suarez is in to relieve Suarez, to try to hold the lead that Suarez just gave the Jays. Heck, it'd be a good winter if they did that too.
Glevin - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 05:28 PM EST (#473138) #
Murakami doesn't make any sense to me as a target. Essentially a 1B/DH who strikes out all the time. He had an. 095 batting average on pitches 93 MPH or faster last year. Not sure how well that translates to the majors.
greenfrog - Saturday, November 08 2025 @ 08:27 PM EST (#473139) #
Per The Athletic, one NL Pacific Rim scout said about Murakami: "It's just going to be, 'Can he get to enough home run damage to make it worth it?' Is it going to be closer to Kyle Schwarber production or Joey Gallo production?"

I'm generally not a fan of defensively-challenged position players who strike out 27-30% of the time, but occasionally they can still be very valuable (Schwarber is one such player). So although there are some red flags with Murakami, I wouldn't automatically write him off. But it sounds as though he's more of a 1B/DH type than a legitimate third baseman.
Glevin - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 02:34 AM EST (#473141) #
Ultimately, I trust Jays scouting but if it were me, I'd steer far away from Murakami. 29% K rate in a league where guys don't throw very hard doesn't bode well. Suzuki who is a comp by numbers had around a 16% K rate in Japan and around 25% in the US. What does 29% turn into? 35%? Schwarber strikes out about as much as Murakami does in Japan. Add to that that he's essentially a 1B/DH, where would he even play? Jays have money and are world series contenders, instead of going after a guy who has a 5% chance to become as good Schwarber, just sign Schwarber if that's what you want.
John Northey - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 02:58 AM EST (#473142) #
A key for Murakami is his age, entering his age 26 season growth is likely. If he is teachable then a reduction in strikeouts could happen, especially around a team of non-strikeout hitters including a power guy like Vlad. Schwarber, on the other hand, is entering his age 33 season and is limited to LF/DH. Now, if Murakami can't play an acceptable 3B then he won't work well (maybe if he can play LF but that would be a big stretch given he had 3 OF games last year and that is it. Very much a "what do the scouts see" situation with a massive risk involved, but potentially a massive reward. 80 power isn't easy to find.
scottt - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 11:54 AM EST (#473143) #
In MLB, if there's a hole in your swing, the pitchers will hammer it constantly. 50% strike out isn't out of the question. 
That works for a guy like Varsho or Gimenez who provide defense value.
hypobole - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 02:13 PM EST (#473144) #
The Guardians Clase and Ortiz have both been indicted on bet-rigging charges. Insane how little they were paid to do it.
John Northey - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 03:08 PM EST (#473145) #
Wow, they tossed away their career's over $5k each. For throwing an intentional ball, making $400k for the gamblers. Clase was guaranteed over $8 million over the next year+. Talk about really, really, stupid.
scottt - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 03:48 PM EST (#473146) #
"For repairs at the country house."

It's worth reading the whole thing. Clase started doing this in May 2023, so more than 5K for sure.
scottt - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 03:56 PM EST (#473147) #
The funniest thing: One bet was unsuccessful because Dodgers hitter Andy Pages swung at a pitch in the dirt.

It must have felt like the World Series for Pages.
soupman - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 03:57 PM EST (#473148) #
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/media/1417041/dl?inline

I agree reading the full text is worthwhile. I'm struggling to understand 'why' here, especially in Clase's case - he had ~$30million in salary lined up including $20million in club options for 27/28.

It took them 2 years to catch him, and initially it was Ortiz that they caught. It's the sports books that are nailing guys. What about instances where it's the bookies getting the action? It seems it will be a lot harder to catch guys who aren't screwing over the criminals.

soupman - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 04:00 PM EST (#473149) #
That was on an 8-pitch parlay prop bet.

It seems like, from my reading, that the wagers were getting larger and more bold over time.

scottt - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 04:08 PM EST (#473150) #
May 28. Clase got the save but texted a sad puppy face to his contact after the game. 


So basically, he helped 2 buddies make around 4K by betting on pitch types or pitch speed in 23 and 24.
This year he took it to another level by giving his buddies up to 15K to bet on his behalf and asked for a cut of at least 12K.

99BlueJaysWay - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 06:01 PM EST (#473151) #
One thing to factor into that article - they estimate under $500 per ticket. As anyone who bought tickets knows they were selling for well over 2 times that and the Jays I'm certain got a big cut of that bonus revenue. The fees alone were over $200 per ticket (as I know all too well). Talk about a major rip off.

The Jays don’t make money off the secondary market. Those are people selling the tickets they bought from the Jays re-selling them to the highest bidder. The $500 is also too high. By round my tickets in section 127 went 150-300-450. Regular season was about $100 per seat.

soupman - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 06:11 PM EST (#473152) #
Something to keep in mind is that Rogers disembedded the Jays from the corporate structure. In theory, they are no longer operating under the same constraints they did when they were expected to stay in the black year-to-year. I'd like some more evidence that this is, in fact, the case - but I'm hopeful.

Michael - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 06:11 PM EST (#473153) #
That bet rigging is very crazy.

I could almost imagine people using neutral non-public information (like someone day-to-day is still injured and not going to play, or is recovered and is going to play). I could almost imagine pitch rigging that was neutral like deciding in advance what your first pitch would be (slider, fastball, changeup, etc.).

But even doing the above, risking your MLB contract/life seems crazy for anyone. And certainly going above that to specifically tank (even if only for a few pitches) by doing less than your best only due to the bet is criminal in both the mlb and legal sense.
scottt - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 09:55 PM EST (#473154) #
In theory, it doesn't affect the outcome of games.
Throwing a slider or a cutter on the first or 3rd pitch?
I don't see an impact.

Throwing a ball on purpose?
Wasn't LIttle doing that most of the time?
A single ball has very little impact if most of the other pitches are strikes.
 
Clase lead the league in saves in 22, 23 and 24.
Gerry - Sunday, November 09 2025 @ 10:22 PM EST (#473155) #

Who put the italics on?

Begone

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