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This should be the Blue Jays final visit to the Oakland Coliseum, where the A's have been playing since Charles Finley brought the team here from Kansas City in 1968. The franchise is supposed to begin playing in Las Vegas in 2028 - for the three years in between, the team will play it's home games in Sutter Health Park (capacity 14,014) in Sacramento. It's normally the home of the Sacramento River Cats, San Francisco's AAA affiliate, who for the moment plan to continue playing there as well.

They won't yet be the Las Vegas A's, and they certainly won't be the Oakland A's anymore. Will that make them, temporarily, the Sacramento A's? Apparently not - the team will just be the Athletics or the A's for this interim period.

The Blue Jays have gone 18-7 against Oakland over the last four seasons, since Oakland won all seven of the meetings between the two teams in 2018. They're 105-117 at the Oakland Coliseum, and 2-0 against the A's at Cashman Field in Las Vegas. Yes, the Blue Jays have already played the Athletics in Las Vegas - it was back in 1996, when renovations to the Oakland Coliseum were not quite finished, the A's played their first six home games at Cashman Field in Las Vegas.

The Athletics, of course, are one of the eight American League charter franchises. They played their first 54 seasons in Philadelphia, where Connie Mack built a great team that won championships in 1910, 1911, and 1914 before financial pressures forced him to break up that group. It took some time, but Mack built another great team, and won two more championships in 1929 and 1930. Their history in Oakland, which now spans 56 seasons, is not dissimilar. Charles Finley assembled a great team that won three championships in the early 1970s - after Finley had passed from the scene, another great Oakland team emerged to win three straight pennants and another championship in 1989. Since their last World Series appearance in 1990, the A's have had a number of very strong teams - they've had eleven teams that won at least 90 games, two of whom won more than 100 - and they've made twelve trips to the post-season. Alas for them, in all that time they've managed to win just one post-season series, the 2006 ALDS against Minnesota.

This final iteration of the Oakland A's is not one of their good teams, but it may not be quite as awful as what they've been fielding for the last two years. They've got a fighting chance to keep their 2024 Losses below 100, and they have a couple of interesting players - in particular closer Mason Miller. There aren't all that many Save Opportunities working for this team, but in Miller's 27.2 IP, he's racked up 52 Ks and allowed just 14 Hits.

Tonight's starter, Hogan Harris, made one relief appearance against Toronto last June and gave up four runs in 4.2 innings. Luis Medina made a couple of starts against the Blue Jays last season:, taking an L last June and escaping with a No Decision in September.  The Blue Jays have never faced Mitch Spence, a 26 year old rookie whom Oakland took from the Yankees in the Rule 5 Draft last December.

The Blue Jays haven't indicated yet how they plan to handle their pitching situation for Sunday. Yariel Rodriguez pitched on Wednesday in Buffalo, and while he appears to be Very Close, I don't know that they'll have him return as a starter, or even as a bulk reliever, on three days rest. I expect we'll have one more appearance by the Richards-Francis tag team. This does not make me giddy with anticipation. If you had told me before the season began that Francis would pitch exactly like Erik Swanson I would have been pleased indeed. But the reality has not been as pleasant.

While we're all waiting to see how the team plans to make room for Spencer Horwitz - Vogelbach DFA? Biggio optioned? Clement optioned? - we can report that Tampa Bay has DFA'd Harold Ramirez. If you need a RH singles hitter with no defensive position.


Fri 7 June - Bassitt (6-6, 4.13) vs Harris (0-0, 3.14)
Sat 8 June - Gausman (4-4, 4.60) vs Medina (0-0, 0.00)
Sun 9 June - ??? vs Spence (4-3, 3.86)
Blue Jays at Athletics, June 7-9 | 130 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
jerjapan - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#447129) #
Hogan Harris is one great name.

I don’t think Clement has any options left?

Biggio deserves a demo, arguably, but I’m not sure the org wants to do that.

If it was up to me, I’d get rid of Clement, vogelbach and KK … pick up salary and maybe even get a low level prospect, and then give the buffalo vets some run.

Sad seeing what’s become of the A’s. They were the number one bad guys when I was coming up as a teenage fan.
Mike Green - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#447130) #
For what it's worth, Francis' problems are less serious than Swanson's.  Francis is still missing bats, and his control hasn't been too bad.  It's just the long ball.  Swanson isn't missing bats and he's giving up all kinds of hard contact.  Francis has been somewhat unlucky with the long ball (not that he would have been good with ordinary luck; he would have been bad rather than unsightly). 
uglyone - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#447134) #
Fangraphs Rest of Season combined projections

* Vogelbach 114wrc+, 1.1war/650pa
* Turner 110wrc+, 1.3war/650pa
* Biggio 98wrc+, 1.5war/650pa
* Clement 96wrc+, 2.1war/650pa
* Kiermaier 88wrc+, 2.5war/650pa

I'd lean towards Biggio getting cut, especially since he has options.
Ducey - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#447135) #
The Fangraphs depth chart says Clement is out of options.

Biggio has 3 and less than 5 yrs, so I think he can be optioned.

Biggio cant play SS, 3B and had pretty much lost his 2B/OF job to Schneider. He has not had an OPS+ of 100 for 4 straight years. Maybe he can go to BUF and get regular playing time, hit the weight room and become more than Russ Adams.

Clement can play good defence on the left side side and likely improves if they play him more than 2x a week. He also is a better base runner.

Pretty easy call to me.
vw_fan17 - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#447137) #
Maybe I'll get to see Horwitz tonight then. Taking the whole family (4 + MIL) for a goodbye game. Sitting in section 110, just a bit over from the Jays' dugout on the 1B line. Wife's family has cheered on both As and Giants forever.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#447138) #
Hogan Harris is one great name.

Hogan Harris sounds like Horace Hogan, the nephew of Hulk Hogan.

Yamamoto and the Dodgers visit the Yankees.

uglyone - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#447140) #
Of course i wouldn't be surprised to see Biggio hit every bit as well in AAA as Horwitz is, especially with AAA's superior umps.


* Horwitz (26): 259pa, 17.0b%, 15.8k%, .401bip, .335avg, .179iso, 157wrc+
* Biggio (24): 174pa, 19.5b%, 16.1k%, .352bip, .312avg, .203iso, 152wrc+
* Horwitz (25): 484pa, 16.1b%, 14.9k%, .386bip, .337avg, .158iso, 144wrc+
* Biggio (27): 39pa, 25.6b%, 15.4k%, .348bip, .276avg, .103iso, 136wrc+
* Horwitz (24): 202pa, 14.9b%, 20.3k%, .313bip, .246avg, .117iso, 101wrc+
* Biggio (26): 90pa, 12.2b%, 28.9k%, .224bip, .182avg, .143iso, 68wrc+

* Horwitz (ALL): 945pa, 16.1b%, 16.3k%, .375bip, .316avg, .155iso, 138wrc+
* Biggio (ALL): 303pa, 18.2b%, 19.8k%, .316bip, .266avg, .172iso, 125wrc+

uglyone - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#447142) #
Biggio optioned.
greenfrog - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#447143) #
Yet again, the front office makes a move days/weeks after the internet suggests it.
dalimon5 - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#447144) #

Did you notice Harold Ramirez was just dfa'd?
Gerry - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#447145) #
Biggio has been DFA'd. He could have been optioned but he would have had to agree.
Mike Green - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#447147) #
Biggio DFAed? Well, the club made their appraisal of what was best for the club then independent of option status. I disagree with them, but I hope I am wrong. I also hope that Horwitz gets a fair shot.
BlueMonday - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#447148) #
When is the last time that a player on the Batter’s Box masthead has been DFAec? Has it ever happened?
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#447149) #
It's been a long time coming for Cavan. The ability to draw a walk kept him on the roster for the last 2 or so seasons. Despite that, I always thought Santiago Espinal's ability to play shortstop should have given him the upper hand over Biggio in terms of a roster spot. I'd still rather have Espy over Ernie Clement.

I also thought Biggio turned himself into a decent big league defensive outfielder as well, which bought him some time.

Will be interested in seeing what sort of affect this has on Bo Bichette. It appeared the two were pretty close, one hopes this motivates Bo to go on a good long tear at the plate this summer.
Nigel - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#447150) #
Good for Biggio.
Gerry - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#447151) #
You would think several other teams would be interested in Biggio. The Jays should be able to get a low level prospect back in return.
Nigel - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#447152) #
A career 103 wRC+ who put up 98wRC+ and 3 WAR in 750 PA’s (about a season and a third) over the past 3 years will find another home. He’s no world beater but he’s a useful guy to have around.
Glevin - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#447153) #
No problem with this. I always liked Biggio but he just isn't very good. Let's hope Horwitz is better.
Nigel - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#447154) #
Saying that Biggio just isn’t very good isn’t supported by the data. He’s pretty much a league average player or just slightly below if used appropriately. Losing Biggio has no impact on the Jays as they had stopped playing him so I hope they use Horwitz. Onwards and upwards.
greenfrog - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#447155) #
Harold Ramirez may have flamed out this year, but he was noticeably better than, say, Raimel Tapia or Randal Grichuk the last couple of years. He provided some modest utility at zero acquisition cost. Not bad for a player who was viewed as a non-prospect in Toronto. He earned a few million dollars to put in the bank and had an MLB career—something he can be proud of.
Glevin - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#447156) #
It depends on your definition of not very good. Biggio is a utility guy. He's better than Espinal for example, who I don't think think belongs in the majors, but he's a 25th or 26th guy on a roster. I also think he's been protected more than most hitters sitting against guys he would have trouble with.
pooks137 - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#447157) #
Keith Law wins the long con.

You would think several other teams would be interested in Biggio.

Biggio's 4 million dollar salary is going to be the impediment, similar to Harold Ramirez'. It's better to wait for them to be released and sign them cheap.

Biggio will only get more expensive in his final arb year and is a non-tender candidate.

greenfrog - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#447158) #
I wonder how much Biggio's performance has been impeded by his chronic shoulder issues.

I think Horwitz is going to do well this time around in the majors -- if he gets enough regular playing time. He should be starting most games against a RHP, in my opinion.
Nigel - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#447159) #
Glevin I agree with much of that. He’s not an everyday player and he does need to be protected against velocity. But he has very little platoon split. I think he’s useful higher up the roster than the 25-26th man. I think the Jays could have usefully gotten 300 PA’s this year out of him in RF/LF/2B/3B at a league average level. That would be better than how the Jays have filled those ABs to date. It’s irrelevant because the Jays weren’t going to do that.
Mike Green - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#447160) #
Biggio was a  very good player in 2019-20, and a lot of fun to watch.  Laying down bunts, going the other way, 20-0 stealing bases and playing good D.  Then he hurt his neck, and he hasn't been quite the same, although still a fine utility player. 
greenfrog - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#447161) #
Manoah is going to have UCL surgery on his throwing elbow next week. Davidi on X says "Exact procedure TBD, could be TJ, could be repair with brace. Either way his season is over."
Glevin - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#447163) #
Tbh, I wouldn't have dropped Biggio, I would have let go Vogelbach. He's a pretty good hitter against rhp but is so limited (can't play field at all, can't hit lefties at all, needs to be PR for all the time) that I would take a lesser bat. I know Horwitz has been playing elsewhere but really Jays now have 4 1B/DH guys.
92-93 - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#447164) #
Weird timing. Vogelbach has looked good at the plate recently and has been very solid vs. RHP the last few seasons. Where is Horwitz going to get playing time? At 1B vs. RHP with Vlad at 3B and Turner on the bench? Meh.

I wonder if Biggio refused the demotion, or if the Jays DFA-ed him as a courtesy, knowing they won’t pay him the 5.5MM next year and affording him the opportunity to stay in the majors.

Clement LOOKS like he should be a better 3B than Biggio, but I’m not convinced he actually is.
uglyone - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#447165) #
Biggest issue with biggio is he lost all of his pop.

Also a subpar (but not awful) defender at his positions
Mike Green - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#447166) #
It might have been a courtesy.  Biggio was an org favourite, for understandable reasons.  He worked hard, and accepted a reduced role without complaint after the injury. 
uglyone - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#447167) #
Also remember that biggio is only a couple years younger than vogelbach.
Nigel - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#447168) #
I’m looking forward to the Vladdy 3B, Horwitz 2B, Turner 1B, Schneider LF lineups!
greenfrog - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#447169) #
The Blue Jays can gain ground in the WC race with a win tonight. They would be 2 GB Minnesota for the third WC spot (with a few other teams to pass as well).
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#447171) #
The Dodgers and Yankees remain scoreless into the 11th inning.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#447172) #
Teoscar delivers the big hit and the Dodgers win 2 - 1.
Magpie - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#447173) #
I've said a couple of times that Atkins these days is roughly where Gillick was around 1988 - the young core he'd invested so much hope in hadn't found their way to the promised land. So now what? And at the end of April 1989, Gillick began to move on from his young core - he traded Jesse Barfield. Biggio isn't nearly as good or as important a player as Barfield was, but I think there's a bit of the same dynamic at work here.
Eephus - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#447174) #
I tuned in right on time for that one pitch. Apologies I may have put the dagger in the season jinx-wise. I’m so sorry.
Eephus - Friday, June 07 2024 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#447175) #
I’ve never watched live just one pitch, a singular pitch, thrown as I arrive, finish a ballgame. Goddamn it I feel bad (not like I threw it but still).
Nigel - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#447176) #
The Jays have the 7th worst run differential in MLB - that one pitch didn’t jinx the season:). That timing wasn’t great from a personal karma perspective though:)
Eephus - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#447177) #
As for Cavan Biggio... I understand the move only if the plan is to give Horwitz an honest chance to juice the lineup (basically, not replacing the forgotten man role Biggio had played the past several weeks.)

The results clearly weren't there and haven't been for a while (his habit as a notorious slow starter isn't made for this particular moment) but as a pure 'player type' I always dug him. 

Hell, I can relate to him: a lefty hitter, more of a supporting bat when going well, with plenty of swing and miss (god I hate hard fastballs), very happy to work for and take a free pass, not an amazing defender anywhere but stick him at 2B/1B/any outfield corner and you're not overly nervous. Also not blessed with exceptional speed (maybe averge-ish), but an exceptionally smart baserunner in his moments (and that's where the parallels between us end... damnit).

I will miss him, and wish Biggio a fruitful MLB career wherever he lands next. Unless it is the Rays... because boy would that drive all of us nuts. So get ready to grumble at the 14 dingers he hits down the stretch in the hideous Trop.   
Eephus - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#447178) #
That timing wasn’t great from a personal karma perspective though:)

Definitely not. I'd had a great evening writing down by the beach, came home, big bowl of popcorn ready for the first pitch in a tie game of the 9th an--- oh. It was so quick as it happened I didn't even know who was on the mound. Or who on the A's hit the darn thing.
christaylor - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:30 AM EDT (#447179) #
How do folks feel on the imaginary "frustration meter"?

I'm already ready to believe that I find the 2024 team less frustrating to watch than the 2024 team.

Perhaps it's getting used to the flaws and turning to cheering for Bo to break out of his struggles. Feeling bad that all the heat Manoah took last year was him feeling the developing onset of an arm issue. The SP still being decent and while Gausman has been disappointing we get to see if he can elove into a different pitcher and still have success. addy has cemented his status as God but not great. Varsho is as good. Springer is getting old fast (the FO would do well to unload his contract plus a prospect).

Tough loss in game 1 but my internal vibes have shifted and I wonder if others vibes have too.I don't find the team compelling but they're not a frustrating watch, which they were to the gills in 2023 for me.

It is merely entertainment after all.
christaylor - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:39 AM EDT (#447180) #
Ugh. I don't typically care about errors I make in posts here, given it's a PHP site for the early aughts, and I'm using a 2024 smartphone to interact... and it's a pena for us to chatter.

...but, yes, I mean to compare 2024 to 2023, not this year to itself.

That said, I do hope Biggio hangs out on the banner until Vladdy leaves (for whatever reason), if only as a marker of the promise of the 2019 team.
vw_fan17 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 02:03 AM EDT (#447181) #
Dang. Came back from getting 2 big pretzels and a coke for the 9th.. Watched them do bupkus. Saw Green coming in and thought "ok, we have a decent shot to go to the 10th with him". First pitch, bang. Seemed similar to several balls that went to right field tonight but were caught. Such disappointment.

The fireworks after the game were excellent, though. Some of the best I've seen. No, I'm not an aficionado or anything. But, better than a lot of stuff you see at county fairs, etc, IMHO. With a good seat.

Now if only I'd for once NOT thrown caution to the wind. Was ~23C when we left so I wore shorts - weather report said down to ~11/12C. Oakland definitely gets colder than further down the bay. Probably around 6-7C and VERY windy the last 2 hours. Back home, it's still maybe ~11-12C and not that bad in shorts. Ah well, at least the van has good heating :-)
Michael - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 06:19 AM EDT (#447183) #
I'm sad we are losing Biggio. I held out hope that the roboumpires would get here because I think he's been hurt much more than most by the inconsistent umpiring as his eye was very elite when he first came up.

I agree that Biggio is a very marginal player, sort of average at best in terms of offense and defense, but I still liked him for the style of play.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 07:18 AM EDT (#447184) #
I think Magpie is on to something. The move is a big one for the front office because it means they have accepted one of their core pieces is not good enough and they did something about it.
scottt - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#447186) #
Biggio hasn' t been a core piece for a long time.

When I saw that Varsho and Jansen were on the bench, I imagined another 2-1 lost.
Although, Kirk went 0 for 1 and and KK 1 for 2.

We're  back to only 4 players with OPS over .700. Maybe it's Schneider who needs a break.
KK is still the worse hitter on the team. I think he figured in spring training that he got no serious offers outside of Toronto because he didn't hit enough HRs. He was better when he was talking about hitting only singles and getting on base in 23. Clement has not had much success either and the Springer recovery seems to have stalled.

Jansen .825
Guerrero .813
Schneider .760
Varsho .759
IKF .699
Turner .667
Bichette .631
Biggio .614
Vogelbach .610
Springer .597
Clement .588
Kirk .582
KK .564

This is posted form a 32-bit laptop that is getting mightily old.

bpoz - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#447187) #
So far in June 3 losses by big scores. 3 1 run wins. So 1 one run loss is balancing the 1 run W/L column.
jerjapan - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#447188) #
I literally just opined that the FO did have the stomach for a Biggio DFA and they went and proved me wrong.
I see this as the right move all around, and likely for Biggio too.  He has more value than his advanced metrics imply to the minds of some managers, given his versatility and reported character.

I'd have to peruse injury lists to know if he fits a need for someone right now, but if he does, there's a minor deal.  Biggio goes to a contender, gets some playing time, a fresh start. 

Clearly, the club believes in Vogelbach's utility, but I'd still be looking to cut bait on him and KK both to provide even more opportunities for the Bisons.  Lukes, in particular, deserves some run regardless of his position on the depth chart.  He's past his athletic prime already.  Keeping him in the minors feels cruel and unusual at this point. 
AWeb - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#447189) #
I'll miss Biggio. I always thought he could be very good, but his consistent awfulness in April (this year was his best, still not great) -  It might be a coincidence (April was his worse, but one of the months had to be) -  always put him in a deep hole every year, both stats and playing time-wise. Perfectly fine in the field pretty much where ever they asked, but never trusted with a position full-time, always seemed to be a placeholder. The terrible starts probably have something to do with that. Who goes in the banner? Someone the team has control over for a few years would be best... Schneider?
Magpie - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#447191) #
Who goes in the banner?

I always thought the obvious choice was Jumping Joe. You have one of the greatest home runs in the history of baseball, and it was struck by a Toronto Blue Jay? That stuff never gets out of date.
uglyone - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#447192) #
I don't mind losing biggio but i do think we should be able to or should have been able to get something decent for him. Like a decent reliever or something.
James W - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#447193) #
re: Frustration meter

Last year was a solid 97/100. This year, I'm around 120/100.

It might be "entertainment", but I've not been entertained by it very much at all this year.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#447194) #
Horwitz is at second base in today's lineup, with Schneider in left-field. Kiermaier in CF, Varsho in RF and Springer on the bench. Interesting.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#447195) #
Scott with three t's, just because you dismiss a point does not make it irrelevant or untrue. Biggio was not a can't miss prospect like Bo or generational talent like Vlad but he was one of three prospects the Jays had with famous last names who came up through the system together, did the marine/navy seal blue jays training together and were matched with their minor league manager at the major league level. Biggio was part of the core, as a utility player. "The core" doesn't have to mean your most talented hitters. If you believe in culture, balance and leadership among other intangibles then that's easy to see.
Marc Hulet - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#447196) #
With Biggio's performance and salary, he likely doesn't have many suitors if any. He could very well pass through waivers and make it to AAA.
soupman - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#447197) #
i agree that it would have been nice to make a deal for biggio, i hope he gets picked up and does well elsewhere

i think the reason he didn't net a return is simply that he is getting paid too much and producing too little. i'd be shocked if they didn't check around.

On a tangential note: alex rios was hitting pretty much the exact same line as Varsho this year when he was waived outright, for example...and that was my guess around BlueMonday's question about the last banner Jay to be DFA'd/waived, but i can't remember if/when he was in the banner...i just remember halladay and hill

dalimon5 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#447198) #
Am I the only one wondering why this FO doesn't upgrade their offense via trade right now? Alonso? JD Martinez? Surely there are some power bats available now.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#447200) #
Horwitz is at second base in today's lineup

Hilarious. Barger debuts in left field. Horwitz debuts (in 2024) at second base. How very Ross Atkins and John Schneider to do this. I hope they at least let Horwitz get some sleep last night.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#447201) #
Cavan Biggio is being paid $4.2M this year.  That's a fine price for a utility player who can be expected to produce 1-1.5 WAR in half-time play, and a little better than that if you platoon him at second base.  
soupman - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#447202) #
Luis Robert Jr is supposedly available and has team options through 2027. Crochet may also be available controllable through 27. I don't know if the Jays have the pieces to sign either one, let alone both even if they were willing to pay.

Since the Sox are possibly the worst team ever - currently tied for worst since 1962, and 3rd worst in the modern era...would they be interested and value Manoah and Tiedemann more than a semi-contender given that all they are playing for is minimizing ignominy?

Teams so rarely trade for injured guys despite repairs to elbows being routine now. Heck, Ohtani just got paid and he's on his third elbow (probably) now.
Magpie - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#447203) #
I expect Biggio to pass through waivers at which point I believe it’s up to him whether to accept a AAA assignment or opt for free agency. I assume he would go for Door #2
soupman - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#447204) #
it's a lot and the jays are going to spread the time to guys making less, it seems. Biggio can opt out of assignment, collect the 4mil and then sign as a free agent elsewhere. i don't know what number the arbitrator would use next year though.
John Northey - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#447205) #
Very interesting - Horwitz batting 2nd at 2B. Wonder if they get Varsho enough RF time if that'll get him a shot at the utility Gold Glove since there is no way they give it to him in LF or CF with him playing part time at each. He certainly deserves it - he leads all OF with 12 DRS (#2 is at 10 in over 80 more innings). #2 for any position is Ketel Marte with 10. He also leads in OOA with 8 in the OF (tied with Michael Siani and in FRV (fielding runs above average) for the OF with 8 (a few are at 7), and in rPM (+/- runs saved above average via Fielding Bible) at 9 with #2 at 7. It seems criminal they don't just put Varsho in CF and leave him there.

It'll be interesting to see how Horwitz does at 2B. I haven't seen any advanced stats for him in the minors anywhere, you'd think they are out there but I can't find them. All I find is 11 games at 2B, 87 innings, 12 PO 20 Assists, 1 error, 3 double plays - better than Orelvis at 2B (33 games, 272 innings, 50 PO, 70 Assists, 12 errors, 14 DP, in Horwitz 87 innings that would be 16 PO, 22 Assists, 4 errors, 4 DP - 4 more outs, 3 more errors, 1 more DP - so not drastically different on balance but I can't imagine a pitcher or manager who'd want Orelvis there over Horwtiz as errors drive both nuts).

I'm expecting Horwitz to be a lot like Biggio but younger, cheaper, and more likely to hit. I suspect this means we'll see Varsho in RF more often too (mixed with more CF, a lot less LF), and maybe more Vlad at 3B (scare the crap out of pitchers, but at 3B Vlad has 17 innings, 4 assists, 0 errors, 0 DRS this year - not bad).
vw_fan17 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#447207) #
Just skimmed the SN broadcast of last night's game, and there were a couple of brief pans over our area where I was able to identify our group. Such as Kirk's foul ball in the top of the 7th. It's funny how "being on TV" is still a bit of a "cool thing" even after all these years (and yes, I realize how dated that statement makes me :-)

I see that the announcers mentioned the "Sell the Team" and "Stay-in-Oakland, dun-dun, dun-dun-dun" chants that were by far the most noticeable chants outside of 2 specific incidents - the winning HR cheers and a brief chant of "let him go" after they kicked out a ~10 year old boy who ran onto the field during the 7th inning stretch and ran up to Vlad and seemed to ask him for the infield warmup ball...

The "frustration meter" - yeah, 120/100 seems about right. VERY little entertaining about watching Springer hit 3 or 4 ground balls and not run out one in the 9th that might have made a difference.. My wife (not a sports fan at all) had earlier asked how much he was getting paid, then then remarked again "he's getting paid HOW much to not even run?". I kinda agree with the benching today.

I think I have already remarked - the 2 main reasons we went was 1. Last time ever for Jays in Oakland and 2. Fireworks (which my wife / daughters really liked). I didn't even go last year because of lackluster interest in the team, and I have WAY LESS interest in the team. This one was all for nostalgia's sake. 

As for the team? If they get swept here, they're overdue for a teardown.. This team isn't impressing anyone.
Magpie - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#447209) #
In fairness to Springer, in that last AB he stumbled coming out of the box, nearly did a face plant, at which point I might have thrown him out myself.

The ground balls, from him, remain a Bad Thing.
Mike Green - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#447210) #
Horwitz walks and scores in the first inning.  On brand for him, not so much for your Toronto Blue Jays. 
greenfrog - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#447211) #
He probably should have been on the team a month ago, but better late than never. Perfect start to his second cup of coffee in the majors.
Michael - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#447212) #
Gausman looks pretty great today. Always a bit hard to tell with the opponents being a poor offensive team, but the pitches look pretty good.
Michael - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#447213) #
Pretty good to get 4 runs all with 2 outs for the offense in the bat around 5th. HR-Out-Out-(4 more runs).
99BlueJaysWay - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#447214) #
66 pitches for Gausman through 6. We may see a CG tonight!
99BlueJaysWay - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#447215) #
Also, no one is talking about the fact that Schneider has completely fallen off over the last two weeks. His rolling expected xwoba is down to .265. Why is that significant? It’s the low point for George this year, on May 24th. At that time people were complaining multiple times per game that George needed to be moved out of the top spot. Now, not a peep. What gives?
Magpie - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#447216) #
Now, not a peep. What gives?

Some guys are bullet-proof.

Biggio played his best baseball when he was, more or less, an everyday second baseman. He was moved to 3b to accommodate Semien, he became a utility guy when Espinal had a hot streak. He wasn't heard to complain - hey, his father made at least three position changes on his way to Cooperstown - but most players perform better in a regular role. So maybe he'll be looking for a team with a gaping hole at second base. There's one in the AL East, obviously, and who doesn't like hitting in Fenway? The Mets, Pirates, Marlins might also be of interest.
Michael - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#447217) #
Not just a CG but a shutout CG for Gausman (his first ever 9 inning CG - he had one 5 inning CG before).
Mike Green - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#447218) #
Schneider is streaky.  But.  Since he came up in 2023, he's got a .251/.360/.498 line.  George Springer has a .243/.317/.379 line since the beginning of 2023.  Who do you think is a better hitter right now? 
greenfrog - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#447219) #
I expect he'll get off the schneid soon.

That was a much-needed CG by Gausman. I hope Yariel is back soon to provide some 4-6 inning starts for the team.
uglyone - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#447220) #
I think we can allow schneider a two week slump. If it lasts a month or more like Bo or Springer than yeah everyone will be saying he should be moved down too.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#447221) #
Springer has declined, no doubt. What I find funny is that he is targeted more than other players who have also declined or are performing bad. Not sure why. Is it because he is in more commercials? Is it because he makes the most? I don't think so otherwise people wouldn't have soured so much on Chapman since he wasn't overpaid.

The biggest disappointment to me has been Alejandro Kirk for two years and Bo Bichette for 2022 and 2024. I expect more from players their age vs a mid 30s OF who had a concussion in between being borderline elite and now just average or below.
scottt - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 08:57 PM EDT (#447222) #
I don't think many people are looking at rolling averages.
Schneider has the third highest OBP on the team and is 4th in OPS.
Who else would you bat leadoff? IKF?
Having Schneider there has the benefit of getting him more PA when the lineup turn over.
He hit a walk off homer not that long ago. Remember?
Springer is 11th in OPS. It's going to take a hell of a good two weeks to bring him up.

scottt - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#447223) #
Biggio got a chance when Schneider cooled off last year and didn't make much of it.
He was 0 for 8 in the playoffs while Schneider was on the bench.

John Northey - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#447224) #
The biggest issue with Springer is his age - at 34 odds are high a drop in production is a permanent drop. His years in Toronto - OPS+ 141-132-102-74, that isn't a good trend, Ages 31-32-33-34. George Bell, another famous Jay went 31-34 117-99-63-retired. Jose Bautista was 31-34 145 OPS+, then 118-79-102 for 35-36-37 Once that drop starts it is hard to stop. Encarnacion had a dead cat bounce at 36, going to 131 after a 116 at 35, but dropped to 70 the next year and was done. It is VERY rare for a guy over 32 to return to old levels after dropping to a sub 100 OPS+. We all hope Springer can, but his playing time is just going to drop I suspect now.

Others slumping like Kirk (similar amount of time) are in their 20's thus have hope of recovery, plus Kirk, of course, is a premium defensive catcher which is something that plays with a 70 OPS+ (see many cases all the time) like he has right now. Btw, the guy everyone hated to see go, Gabriel Moreno, has an 88 OPS+ right now with his backup at 45 (!). Gurriel Jr is at 94 (had to check since I was there) and the guy we all wanted instead of Varsho - Corbin Carroll - is at 66 (and signed through 2030 for $100.8 mil which looked like a good deal when signed last year but now I suspect Arizona is feeling a bit of buyer's remorse).
krose - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#447225) #
Don’t suppose anyone has been enjoying watching Teo lay waste to the Yanks. What was Atkins thinking.
John Northey - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#447226) #
That Teoscar was entering his age 31 season and dropped from a 130 wRC+ to a 105 last year. His 136 this season (so far) is his best since 2020 (the 60 game season). It is VERY rare for a guy to reach a new high at 31. It happens, but not often, nor off a 105 wRC+ season. He was demanding a multi-year deal (3-5 years) which odds are will not look good in a year or two. Now, in the end he took a single year deal from the Dodgers, after the Jays pivoted to signing first Kiermaier to cover the OF then after Teoscar signed in LA they signed Turner to cover DH. Just the way things go. FYI: he will make as much as Turner & Kiermaier combined this year ($23.5 mil).

Yes, I'd have loved him to come back too. But it isn't hard to see why Atkins didn't give in to his demands and pivoted to Kiermaier at the time (far better defense, coming off a strong year (104 wRC+ with gold glove defense [+3 DRS in CF], which no one will ever expect from Teoscar -3 DRS in LF, +4 in RF, -23 OF DRS lifetime).

So, the OF now is either Varsho-Kiermaier-Springer or Schneider-Kiermaier-Varsho or Schneider-Varsho-Springer. All strong on defense, and with 2 of the 4 hitting decently (Varsho-Schneider) while we keep hoping Springer recovers and Kiermaier stops going for power and just accepts being a very good 9 hitter like last year.
krose - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#447227) #
Yah! But, but, but….
christaylor - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 11:19 PM EDT (#447228) #
...but, but, but... magical thinking?
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#447229) #
Magpie - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#447230) #
If it feels right
Accept unblinking
Make it real life
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, June 08 2024 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#447231) #
Around MLB: Philadelphia wins 7 - 2 over the New York Mets in London, England.  (Bryce Harper and Whit Merrifield went deep.)  Yesterday, the Chicago White Sox snapped a 14-game losing streak.  And the Cincinnati Reds have won 7 in a row.
Eephus - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 01:43 AM EDT (#447233) #
You don’t have to coax me to keep Sloan references going. If it feels good do it, you’ll never hear the end of it and the people of the sky surely approve.
electric carrot - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#447238) #
So long, Toescar,
I will miss you
There is too much to do
Or I'd go with you
It's a bad time
I haven't got a dime.

(I cannot be beat on the Sloan references -- give up now.)
Mike Green - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#447242) #
Today's lineup against a RHP has Horwitz at second base and leading off, Springer in RF and Schneider getting a day off.  It's fine for Schneider to get a day off, of course.  Once in a month.  The same with every other player.  Guerrero Jr. hasn't had a day off this season and could definitely use one. 
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#447243) #
The Mets stun the Phillies in London, England.  Final score 6 - 5.  The game ended on a double-play with the bases loaded.
uglyone - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#447244) #
193wrc+ for Vladdy in June, 182wrc+ over his last 30gms.

don't let the man rest!
Mike Green - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#447245) #
I guarantee that the team will pay a price if they don't rest him soon. He's not Marcus Semien.
Magpie - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#447246) #
Give him a rest on Thursday.
Mike Green - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#447247) #
One of the lessons of The Book is that players do not hit better after a hot streak than after hitting at their usual rate. No explanation has been forthcoming, to my knowledge. My theory is that Managers are less likely to give a needed day off during a hot streak, perhaps when a player is feeling off.
Kasi - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#447248) #
Teo yes would be better than turner and co but I have serious doubts his numbers would just carry over to here. There are different expectations between having to carry a teams offence and being able to be comfortable slipping in as the fourth or fifth best hitter on the team. On the Dodgers he always knows Betts, Ohtani and Freeman have things covered so he’s stress free to just add to that stacked lineup. Here he would also be more attacked as a hitter. I doubt his numbers here would be even close to what they are in LA.
Ducey - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#447249) #
So sick of Bo going after the first pitch regardless of location or if breaking ball. Just snuffed out another rally with a double play.

There seems to be no accountability
Nigel - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#447250) #
Horwitz reminds me a lot of Rance Mullinicks at the plate.
greenfrog - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#447251) #
Will Mason Miller pitch the ninth? The Blue Jays had best score a run in the eighth.
greenfrog - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#447252) #
Timely hitting by IKF.
uglyone - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#447253) #
Kikuchi is a hockey player.
scottt - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#447254) #
IKF is back over .700 OPS. He can hit a sac fly when needed or like today in the second inning, cut his swing and aim a ball in the hole to score some runs.

Guerrero and Bichette have trouble waiting for a good pitch to hit.
Guys who always swing at the first pitch never get anything over the plate.
Some guys like to take the first pitch, that doesn't hurt them much because the second pitch is usually a ball, but once in a while they can unload on the first pitch.

Just one 1 below .500. Only Detroit and Boston between the Jays and the 3rd wildcard.
All the teams over .500 are playoffs team right now.

Michael - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#447256) #
In the NL the third wild card is a 3 way tie half a game behind the Jays. The Twins in the 3rd wild card are -6 on run differential and only 2 games up on the Jays so that is pretty close. Boston however by run differential is +30 and the Jays are -35 so there is a 65 run differential between the two teams despite Boston being only half a game up on the Jays. The Jays are 13-17 against teams over 500, Boston is 8-19, Twins 12-21, so against the good teams the Jays have a decent enough record.

The Jays have outperformed their run difference by enough that they could stay in the race now if they continue to play well (and/or if the changes they've been making payoff). Horowitz in, IKF and Turner heating back up a bit, pitching righting itself a bit, the direction is back to right. We'll see if it carries on past the White Sox and As as most teams will be tougher than these.
John Northey - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 08:56 PM EDT (#447257) #
QUite the weekend for the pitching staff. Starters go 21 innings giving up 1 run total. Relievers not as good, 6 IP 4 runs, 3 earned, acceptable but not good (1 less earned run would've been better). 14 runs scored sounds better than it worked out - just 1 game 1, then 7 game 2, 6 today but just 3 in the first 9 innings.

The team is doing what it needs to do to stay relevant, but needs more to be a winner. 2 games out of the playoffs with 2 teams ahead of them (Red Sox and Twins) while the Tigers are tied, with the Rays & Rangers 1 back. Houston 2 1/2 back (wonder if they'll do a desperate attempt to get another playoff year from their core or do a quick rebuild trade or two)
John Northey - Sunday, June 09 2024 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#447258) #
How would things look in previous playoff setups right now?
  • Pre 1969 - just a WS, no divisions, no WC: Yankees in first by 2 over Baltimore & Cleveland. Only KC & Seattle within 10, Jays 12 1/2 back. NL Phillies up by 4 1/2 over LAD, Brewers 7 back, Atlanta 9 back, everyone else 13+ behind.
  • 1969-1993 - 2 division winners. Yankees/O's/Cleveland in a good AL East battle, KC leads the west by 2 1/2 over Seattle with the Twins at 4 1/2 back.
  • 1994-2011 - 3 divisions, 1 WC per league. Like now, Yankees, Cleveland, Seattle lead, with Baltimore having a 4 game lead on the WC, Jays back 10 1/2 games.
  • 2012-2019 - 3 divisions, 2 WC per league. KC now in the playoffs too, 4 1/2 up on the Twins, 6 1/2 on the Jays. So still in eyeshot of the playoffs but just barely.
  • 2020 - 3 divisions, 2nd place in each division plus 2 more WC. So Yankees/O's (10 on Red Sox), Cleveland/KC (4 1/2 on Twins), Seattle/Texas (by 1 1/2 over Houston). Plus Twins & Red Sox with the Jays & Tigers just 1/2 a game out

You quickly see why the pre-'69 method was dull for most teams. It's early June and only 3 teams in contention in the AL and 2 in the NL with 2 more having faint hope. Generally once you are 10 back it takes a miracle to get back into it.

The 2 division method gets messy in the NL with guessing what divisions teams would be in. AL pretty straightforward. AL West a good fight, AL East a killer 3 team fight. Everyone else bored of baseball before July hits.

1 WC very dull in AL with Baltimore pretty much locked in a battle with the Yankees to see who gets division, who gets WC (who cares?). 2 WC still a race but few would put many eggs in the basket of the 1 game 'good luck to you' playoff. 2020's NHL/NBA 16 team playoff has everyone in it pretty much outside of deadbeats like the ChiSox. Sub 500 teams would make it under that system.

Jays contenders if 2 or more WC's, otherwise the season would be a pure 'who do we trade' situation. Of course, in that situation the Jays would need to shoot for 95 wins, not 90, to make the playoffs in the AL East so many different choices would've been made the past few years. Would things have been better? Worse? Who knows?
bpoz - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 08:10 AM EDT (#447259) #
Cleveland is on pace to win 106 games. KC 95. Cleveland won 92 in 2022 which surprised me. KC was well below .500 in both 2022 and 2023. I don't know if they can actually win 95 games this year. 90 would be quite good.

I think 86-76 for the Jays is doable which should keep them in the playoff race till the end of the season. For a financially good year. 90 wins would be V nice.
scottt - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#447261) #
That's it for the easy stretch. Is a Seattle, San Francisco, Arizona easy?
If not the next "easy" series is when they host Detroit on July 19 even though the first series with them was basically a disaster. 

mathesond - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#447262) #
With so many teams in the mushy middle, are there any really easy stretches anymore?
Mike Green - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#447264) #
No kidding, mathesond.  The AL East stands out, with two of the best teams in baseball (and maybe the best) given strength of schedule) and three mushy middle teams.    The AL has a noticeably better record than the NL in interleague play this year; the NL Central leads the NL divisions with a combined record of 164-162.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#447265) #
Mike Trout due back next month. Who will the Angels trade hime to? They are behind the A's right now in the standings.
scottt - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#447266) #
It's probably more relevant to point out that the Brewers took 2 out of 3 from both Tampa and Boston.
John Northey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#447268) #
An interesting article at The Athletic today - A player poll... here is how the Jays did....
  • Best Player: Ohtani #1, no Jays on the list. 11 players got votes. AL East ones - Judge, Gunnar Henderson, and Adley Rutschman.
  • Most Overrated player: Jazz Chisholm won in a landslide, Jays: Alek Manoah, and ex-Jay Marcus Stroman. Juan Soto got votes - “Could be a spite pick, to be honest. I feel like all he does is walk and hit singles, and doesn’t hit for power like he’s portrayed. Also not a good fielder.”
  • Putting aside their stats and going solely on vibes, who do you most want on your team?: Mookie Betts #1, ex Jay Marcus Semien #9, Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was the only Jay who got any votes.
  • Which team would you sign with if contracts, state taxes and rosters were not a factor?: Atlanta #1, Jays one of 7 teams with just 1 vote (Cardinals a surprise to be at that level as they used to be a popular place with players).
  • What organizations have bad reputations among players?: Oakland #1 by a mile (over half picked them - they were allowed to pick multiple). Jays were the only AL East team not mentioned (!). Rays got 4 votes, Yankees 2, 1 each for Baltimore and Boston. 79 players surveyed. Rays comments were: “When it comes time to pay players, they usually trade them.”, “They get rid of you once you get expensive — or close to it.”, “They’re not player-friendly.” for the Yankees: “No one wants to play for them. A bunch of rules.”
  • Nearly a 50-50 split on playing in the Olympics. Many want it, but some fear injuries or US dominance.
  • Have analytics helped your career, hurt your career, or made no difference to your career?: 76% said 'helped' just 3.2% picked 'hurt'
An interesting bit there - nice that the Jays efforts to build a stronger player development centre in Dunedin, the renos to the dome, and spending on free agents has led to being the only AL East team no one actively avoids now. I guarantee that wasn't the case a few years ago. Clearly the Jays are not on a weak footing vs other teams on free agents outside of taxes (gotta pay more to compensate for the 0% income tax in Texas and Florida).
hypobole - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#447269) #
Athletic player poll time again. One question I found interesting: "What organizations have bad reputations among players? (Multiple answers allowed)"

79 responded. Unsurprisingly, 40 named Oakland A's. White Sox, Angels, Rockies were also named 10 or more times. 8 other teams were named more than once, 8 teams only named once.

10 teams were not mentioned by any of the players as having a bad rep. Jays were one of the 10.
Ducey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#447270) #
"Which team would you sign with if contracts, state taxes and rosters were not a factor?: Atlanta #1, Jays one of 7 teams with just 1 vote"

Presumably they surveyed Jays players. So maybe not a good thing.
scottt - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#447271) #
Toronto is not many players' dream team.
That shouldn't be shocking.
Maybe most of those who picked Atlanta are Americans who aren't from the Texas or the west coast.

hypobole - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#447272) #
So basically, players would prefer not to play for Toronto, but not because of the organisation, but because of other factors.
scottt - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#447273) #
It seems to be a "name the one team you want to play for" question.
I don't see why Toronto would be #1 for players who grew in the US as fans of other teams.
Also, international players like warmer cities.

Glevin - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#447274) #
Biggest factor for players after money are playing close to home. So for example, Dodgers are third but if you count San Diego and Angels, you've got like 17% saying southern California mostly because there are tons of players from there. Braves being high is because they are from an area that produces a lot of baseball players and no other teams around. If you are from anywhere in the South, Atlanta is your only team. This isn't a surprise. It's harder for Jays to attract free agents than it is for many teams but there isn't anything you can do about it.
soupman - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#447275) #
the 92-93 teams didn't seem to have an issue attracting free agents.
Magpie - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#447276) #
Miami and Tampa Bay should both be prime desti. No state taxes and lots of players already live in Florida. It doysprak well of them that they’re not more popular.
Magpie - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#447277) #
Miami and Tampa Bay should both be prime desti. No state taxes and lots of players already live in Florida. It doysprak well of them that they’re not more popular.

Yikes. Let me try that from my desktop.

Miami and Tampa Bay should both be prime destinations. No state taxes and lots of players already live in Florida. It doesn't speak well of them that they’re not more popular.
John Northey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#447278) #
Yeah, it says a LOT about those organizations that few want to play for them. Florida should be a dream for many players - many are from there, others from the Caribbean thus a short flight home and similar weather I'd assume. But instead those are 2 teams that are seen as 'well, it is still technically the major leagues', just like Oakland and the ChiSox. Tampa might have an advantage with AAAA guys knowing they'll get a shot (due to the team being super-cheap), but why sign in Miami outside of 'it is in the majors'? Can't think of much.

The Jays are doing the smart thing - removing all barriers to signing that they can - nothing you can do about being in Canada outside of developing Canadian players which the Jays have done a fair effort of from day one (I remember as a kid in the late 70's getting a package of Jays stuff as part of my Cub scout camp).
Ducey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#447279) #
"the 92-93 teams didn't seem to have an issue attracting free agents."

I dont think thats true. David Cone was a trade and not eager to re-sign, and went off to Kansas City. They lost Key, Henke and the Candyman as well from '92

They signed Jack Morris in '91 but to make him the highest paid pitcher in the AL. They signed Dave Stewart as he felt disrespected by the A's.

I dont think the situation was much different than it is now.
soupman - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#447280) #
the Dodgers had to pay Ohtani 700million dollars to pry him away from here. chapman went to cincinnati originally. darvish went to texas. heck, ohtani signed for the angels originally. there's tonnes of examples of free agents picking the highest dollar amount. even the first big A-rod deal, or the more recent deals for their middle infield.

stewart grew up in Oakland, molitor and morris are from minnesota. the jays ran the highest payroll in baseball both years, the only years they've done it, and they won both times.

then you have the john rockers of the world. in my view, mlb has a lot of people that would heavily prefer not to play in new york city or the east coast for political reasons.

then you have idiosyncratic stories like jr hating the yankees because of something that happened when the kid was literally a kid and his dad was at the end of the bench.

at the end of the day, there is no salary cap. most players will sacrifice a couple summers of their lives to set their families up for generations. steve cohen showed that last year - you CAN buy most of these guys, whether you ought to is another question.
Magpie - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#447281) #
Gillick signed Dennis Lamp in 1984, it didn't work as planned, and he generally stayed away from free agents until 1992. Jack Morris was a huge signing though - the World Series MVP, fresh off one of the most memorable pitching performances in World Series history. But WInfield was a 40 year old DH, and a year later Dave Stewart was past his prime, although still effective enough, and while Paul Molitor was a great player, he'd also been on the Disabled List more often than one can count.

Ash didn't do much with free agents - Roger Clemens was a pretty big deal but Erik Hanson and Otis Nixon, not so much. Ricciardi took a big swing in 2006 with AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan, and when it didn't work, more or less just gave up. And most of Anthopoulos' key additions came via trades.

So I suppose the current management crew has played in the free agent market more than any of its predecessors - Ryu, Springer, Gausman, Bassitt have all been important players here. (Belt, Kiermaier, Turner as well, I guess.)
soupman - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#447282) #
AA has said that the Martin signing was a big deal for a few reasons: 1) it was at the time the largest FA contract he'd handed out (larger than AJ?) and 2) it was the outcome of his philosophical shift in approach that emphasized 'chemistry' - martin had a long streak of going to the playoffs including getting those pirates teams in that no one thought had any business being in the hunt, iirc.
Magpie - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#447283) #
it was at the time the largest FA contract he'd handed out (larger than AJ?)

Definitely larger than Burnett, who signed for five years and $55 million (with an opt-out after year three.) The Martin contract was five years, $82 million, and for the first two years he was a bargain.
Dewey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#447284) #
I don’t think people should be drawing many conclusions about the Jays from that Athletic survey. Only 18 of 30 teams participated, and Toronto wasn’t one of them. And only certain players commented.

Ah, the internet! Source of sweetness and light.
JB21 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#447335) #
I think there are probably enough former Jays on those teams to get a good sampling of responses. Plus players talk.
Blue Jays at Athletics, June 7-9 | 130 comments | Create New Account
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