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Troy Percival signs a 2 year $12 million contract with the Tigers. So, who's next?
Hijack Central-The waiting is the hardest part | 139 comments | Create New Account
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Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 08:59 AM EST (#16600) #
I just received the most ingenious scam e-mail I've ever seen. Someone really put a lot of thought into this one - it's brilliant.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:21 AM EST (#16601) #
I believe the Tigers overpaid for Percival. I haven't been inpressed with him over the last couple of years and feel that he is just a marginal closer now. I'm glad the Jays didn't win (or get in) the Percival bidding war.

As for who is next to sign? My guess is either Pedro or Pavano.
_Jeff Geauvreau - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:22 AM EST (#16602) #
Okay let us know what it is Craig or email me about it.

Sometimes I feel like scamming the scammer and leading him on that I am falling for the scam.

The only thing is I would get to much scam email after that.
_mathesond - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:24 AM EST (#16603) #
http://www.spamscamscam.com/read_letters.php
Jeff aka torontonorth: COMN for one response Nigerian email scam
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:25 AM EST (#16604) #
Next to sign, by the way, will be Kris Benson re-signing with the Mets for 4 years, $33 million.
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:29 AM EST (#16605) #
Jeff : sent!

By the way, I can't *wait* to see the reaction from the Mets fans on Primer when they sign Juan Gonzalez. They are *so* going to sign Juan Gonzalez.
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:33 AM EST (#16606) #
Milwaukee signed Pat Borders yesterday, by the way.

You can't make this stuff up.
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:34 AM EST (#16607) #
Williams will finally make his splash and sign Miguel Cairo to a 5 year $60 million deal, converting him to SS. Tim McCarver will love it, as Cairo is more of a winner than Valentin.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:36 AM EST (#16608) #
After which, George Steinbrenner will introduce his new partner Bill Gates.:)

Seriously, it is hard to figure what all these contracts means for say, Placido Polanco. He's much more valuable than Guzman or Vizquel, but doesn't have the name. My guess is that the Guzman and Vizquel contracts don't ultimately end up changing what Polanco gets.
Named For Hank - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:46 AM EST (#16609) #
Craig, lemme in on the scam, too. I'm a big fan of 419-baiting, and have a log of a truly fantastic one I pulled off a couple of years back that I'll forward to anyone who wants to read it.
_Tyler - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 10:04 AM EST (#16610) #
Craig does your email scam involve the nefarious doings of Ndelebe Shabangu and a mysterious bank account with the world famous FINANCIAL INSTITUTE?
_Moffatt - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 10:05 AM EST (#16611) #
"Me too" on seeing the scam thing.

419 baiting is fun. So is the saga of the "The P-P-P-Powerbook".
_mathesond - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 10:28 AM EST (#16612) #
http://www.sportspickle.com/features/2004-1117-boras.html
Scott Boras is at it again. COMN
_Jobu - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 10:29 AM EST (#16613) #
Milwaukee signed Pat Borders yesterday, by the way.

You can't make this stuff up.


Don't worry Craig, I didn't let Pat go un-noticed in the last hijack thread ;)
;)
;)
excuse me, I have something in my eye
;)
;)
;)
_Braby - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 10:35 AM EST (#16614) #
I'm not going to touch MVP 2005 for PC until I see some of their most damning and mind-boggling errors fixed this time around. Lefty's can't hit homeruns? Jerky gameplay on faster machines? Outrageous dynasty controls? Incorrect pitches and speeds for many marquee pitchers (may I point out that in the out-of-the-box game Halladay throws 98mph and a palmball)? It's called beta testing and test markets people!

I'll just stick with 2004, which, thanks to the work of awesome modders, has been made into an awesomely awesome game. Awesome :)


Fizzy...I'm sure that those same moders will change MVP 2005 for pc the same way they did 04. So why not update? The will be like like 40 bucks in canada, and if you don't think they'll fix the lefty glitch this time around you're crazy. I can't see the game having as many glitches this year, EA Canada will take BETA testing to a new limit im guessing.
Pistol - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 11:00 AM EST (#16615) #
My guess is that the Guzman and Vizquel contracts don't ultimately end up changing what Polanco gets.

And I don't think they'll change what Renteria, Cabrera and Nomar end up getting. It's the middle class of baseball that's toughest to predict (in terms of contract values).
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 11:05 AM EST (#16616) #
I just p-p-pissed myself. I wonder if GMs do this sort of thing too?

J.P.: I've got this shiny Raul Mondesi that I don't seem to need anymore. I'm willing to pay part of the cost of shipping.

Boss: OK, but let's do this without Cashman, I have my own way of conducting business...
_Fozzy - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 11:06 AM EST (#16617) #
Uh, it's Fozzy dude :)

I know modders will change '05, but it will take months to get it to the state that '04 is in now, mostly because of the difficulty in editing the datafiles. I myself won't update because '04 was $65 when it came out, and as a student, why bother when I have a great version already, especially when I can download new 2005 rosters anyways (especially since EAs will only be current up to February 14 and not have the real names of minor leaguers)?

if you don't think they'll fix the lefty glitch this time around you're crazy. I can't see the game having as many glitches this year, EA Canada will take BETA testing to a new limit im guessing.

I had MVP 03, and funny enough, despite having the same engine to run on, there was NO LEFTY GLITCH! The fact that it not only happened but slipped by is a pretty big error, especially for a company the size of EA. Simply having a group of 10 people play it for half an hour would have revealed this error (and the choppy gameplay, and the dozens of dynasty errors); if I'm crazy, they're freakin' nuts. EA had four patches for '04, three of them were roster updates, and the other one, which finally fixed the lefty bug, didn't come out until about 4 months after the game shipped.

You can hope all you want, but until I see these things have been fixed and enough has been improved to justify the cost, it's just not worth it. Take a look at NHL 2005 and see how far they've come from last year...
_Braby - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 11:19 AM EST (#16618) #
haha sorry Fozzy, pretty sure I meant to type that but anyways.

I just think that MVP 05 will have some cool features that will blow 04 away, and as fellow student, EA dropped their prices, so the games are much more affordable, especially for PC. But I hear what you're saying, you should just play 04 until the ppl over at mvpmods start making 05 better, at that time the price should be even cheaper.

I'm not too sure what you mean about NHL, I haven't played it at all, are you saying that its not as good as 04? or way better?

I bought Live the day it came out, and I'm not that impressed, I think I'm going to covert to ESPN2k5, why not, its only 30 bucks.
_Jacko - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 11:38 AM EST (#16619) #
Sign me up for the scam email as well please. I'm dying to find out what it's all about...

jc
_Fozzy - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 12:07 PM EST (#16620) #
Braby: NHL 2005 is shat compared to '04. About half of the people that got the PC version couldn't even get it to work without updating their video card drivers. And, looking at the average computer, that's asking a lot... the whole thing has got a lot of hardcore EA users up in arms.
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 12:49 PM EST (#16621) #
I believe the Tigers overpaid for Percival. I haven't been inpressed with him over the last couple of years and feel that he is just a marginal closer now. I'm glad the Jays didn't win (or get in) the Percival bidding war.

I have no clue whatsoever what Dombrowski was thinking. Percival is definitely on the downside of his career, and this contract is a very big risk. Now, I still think Percival is much more than "marginal", but not at that price. No reliever in the game today is worth $6 million per except Rivera and maybe Gagne IMO. For the Percival of a few years back this would have been a reasonable contract, but not now. I was actually hoping the Jays might land him, but for something much more reasonable (maybe half of what the Tigers gave him).
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 12:52 PM EST (#16622) #
Also, considering all of the other needs that the Tigers still have, was the slightly upgrade from Urbina to Percival really worth tying up that kind of cash? I don't think that having Urbina in the 8th and Percival in the 9th is quite worth $10 million or whatever the Tigers will be paying them combined next year, so I have to assume that they've got a good deal set up to send Urbina somewhere else to fill a hole.
_dp - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 01:05 PM EST (#16623) #
By the way, I can't *wait* to see the reaction from the Mets fans on Primer when they sign Juan Gonzalez. They are *so* going to sign Juan Gonzalez.

I'd love to see them sign Gonzalez. It'd mean they aren't trading for Sammy F'ing Sosa. When you're a Mets fan, can't hope for smart moves, just less stupid ones...

Once again, I'd love to see what Cliff Floyd would do in the Dome. A .380/.520 season as the DH would go a decent way toward replacing Delgado. If the Mets didn't have Wright, I'm sure Minaya would take Hinske...

So question- if Minaya offered Floyd for Hinske straight up (the Mets have no 1B and even Hinske's '04 would be an upgrade from what they got there last year) would you do it?
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 01:10 PM EST (#16624) #
So question- if Minaya offered Floyd for Hinske straight up (the Mets have no 1B and even Hinske's '04 would be an upgrade from what they got there last year) would you do it?

If I were JP, and that were offered to me, I would jump all over it before Minaya had a chance to change his mind. Floyd has his shortcomings but overall is a good, reliably productive hitter, which is far more than will probably ever be said about Hinske.
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 01:16 PM EST (#16625) #
I'd love to see them sign Gonzalez. It'd mean they aren't trading for Sammy F'ing Sosa. When you're a Mets fan, can't hope for smart moves, just less stupid ones...

Stupid I think is the wrong word in this case. Gonzalez is now what he has always been: a big risk with a big upside. The positive is that if he's healthy, and in a situation where he is happy, he is a tremendously productive, MVP-caliber hitter. The negative is that he is quite often either unhealthy or unhappy, and in those situations he is not the kind of guy you want hanging around your club. For some teams, I can frankly see how the potential upside is worth the risk.
_dp - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 01:23 PM EST (#16626) #
The problem in signing Gonzalez is if he isn't totally healthy, they can't DH him. Kind of similar to where they're at with Floyd. And then there's the Shea factor- it's a visibility thing, and a lot of guys just don't adjust to it, or by the time they do the media has turned on them. As much as I'd love to see Delgado go to the Mets (if the Jays can't grab him), seeing him go into Shea worries me (although Piazza didn't lose anything there, other near-elite hitters ahve struggled).
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 01:26 PM EST (#16627) #
The problem in signing Gonzalez is if he isn't totally healthy, they can't DH him.

Very good point dp, I never thought of that. A player like Gonzalez IS considerably more of a risk for an NL team.
_MatO - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:04 PM EST (#16628) #
Live chat at BA on Jays prospects right now.
_Caino - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:06 PM EST (#16629) #
is the chat for subscribers only???
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:17 PM EST (#16630) #
The chat is open to everybody.
_Ryan01 - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:26 PM EST (#16631) #
http://www.baseballamerica.com/chat/chat.php?id=2004111801&rnd=6
COMN for the chat.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:27 PM EST (#16632) #
No reliever in the game today is worth $6 million per except Rivera and maybe Gagne IMO.

I would also pay a lot for Lidge.

I still think Percival is much more than "marginal",

As a closer I think he is marginal, as a reliver he is a bit better.
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:36 PM EST (#16633) #
I would also pay a lot for Lidge.

You're right. He's only maybe a half step behind the two I mentioned.
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:38 PM EST (#16634) #
You're right. He's only maybe a half step behind the two I mentioned

He might even be the best of the bunch. I certainly think that, at this time, he's better than the Hammer.
Pistol - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:43 PM EST (#16635) #
Floyd has his shortcomings but overall is a good, reliably productive hitter,

He can't stay healthy, so I wouldn't consider him reliable.
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:47 PM EST (#16636) #
I certainly think that, at this time, he's better than the Hammer.

The Hammer is...?

He can't stay healthy, so I wouldn't consider him reliable.

Yep, I should have said "when healthy". Although, health is relative I suppose. I mean compared to Junior... ;-)
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:49 PM EST (#16637) #
Sorry - Mariano Rivera.
_DeMarco - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:51 PM EST (#16638) #
Just a thought, there is no actual truth to this rumour, however would you trade Eric Hinske for Ugeth Urbina?

I probably would, even though I really don't like Urbina.

On a side note, Koskie has been offered a two year $7 million contract from the Twins, that seems really low to me.
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 02:54 PM EST (#16639) #
Sorry - Mariano Rivera.

Ah. So you would take Lidge over Rivera? I can see that based on the points that they are at in their respective careers, but I personally will take Mo's track record.

Just a thought, there is no actual truth to this rumour, however would you trade Eric Hinske for Ugeth Urbina?

I probably would, even though I really don't like Urbina.


I agree. I would take any halfway decent major leaguer or prospect for Hinske at this point, and although I am also not that hot on Urbina, I like him a heck of a lot more than what the Jays have in the pen now.
_Brian B. - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:01 PM EST (#16640) #
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/baseball/10209209.htm?1c
The Twin Cities Pioneer Press has an article about Corey Koskie and his FA suitors.

COMN for the article.
_Grand Funk Rail - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:18 PM EST (#16641) #
My favourite tidbit from the BA chat so far:

Q: Jeff from KC asks:
Hi, and thanks for taking our questions? How good is Aaron Hill? Will he be the clubs future shortstop, or will they move him to third?

A: Michael Levesque: I think you will see Hill shift to third base. I had one scout who compared him to Hank Blalock with the bat

HANK BLALOCK?!?!
I have a boner.

Grand Funk out.
_Tyler - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:20 PM EST (#16642) #
Anyone care to bet that scout works for Washington, and was responsible for scouting Castilla and Guzman as well?
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#16643) #
HANK BLALOCK?!?!
I have a boner.


I literally just laughed my ass off... :)
_Mike Forbes - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:24 PM EST (#16644) #
I've always thought of Aaron Hill to be a poor man's Nomar Garciaparra.. But thats just me.
_Grand Funk Rail - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:25 PM EST (#16645) #
I would take any halfway decent major leaguer or prospect for Hinske at this point, and although I am also not that hot on Urbina, I like him a heck of a lot more than what the Jays have in the pen now.

I think Ugie gets a bad rap. Bottom line, get gets guys out, and puts up saves. That's enough for me after watching the slobs we've had over the past few years.

There is, of course, always the worry that he might be kidnapped mid-season.

Grand Funk out.
_Mike Forbes - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:30 PM EST (#16646) #
"Q: Kyle from Toronto asks:
With the 6th pick in this years draft who do you think the jays will target and will they take a player with less talent stricktly because of signability when they should get an A Plus prosepect there.

A: Michael Levesque: I think the Jays will go after either a college (Jeff Clement, Alex Gordon) or HS position player (Upton, Cameron Maybin) if he is too talented to pass up."

If the Jays landed Gordon or Maybin with the 6th pick in the draft, I'd be doing backflips.
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:48 PM EST (#16647) #
I think Ugie gets a bad rap. Bottom line, get gets guys out, and puts up saves. That's enough for me after watching the slobs we've had over the past few years.

My thoughts exactly. Not always pretty, but he gets the job done, which is much more than one can say for the Jays' relievers over the last few years.
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:49 PM EST (#16648) #
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/ticketing/flex.jsp
2005 Flex pack tickets are now available. Like last year, it's a real good deal. $69.23 for 10 games in the SkyDeck (one of which is the April 8 home opener vs. Boston), plus one of those games you get an upgrade to 100-level outfield. You also get a $20 gift card and a bobblehead.
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:49 PM EST (#16649) #
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/ticketing/flex.jsp
COMN for the details.
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:53 PM EST (#16650) #
I agree that Urbina would be a nice addition, but I would not want to add to his personal stress by trading for him with his family situation unresolved.
_MatO - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:55 PM EST (#16651) #
Hey Dean. I asked a question about Brian Grant in the live chat but they didn't choose it :-( I don't want to hear any more nice things about BA from you :-)
_MatO - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:01 PM EST (#16652) #
BA in the chat mentioned a Dominican lefty who throws low 90's and has a nice curve. Wilfreddy Aguirre just turned 18 in Nov and is listed as 6'2" and 180lbs. His first year in the DSL was 2004 and he put up these stats. 3.23ERA 55.2IP 46H 25R 20ER 10BB 62SO. Looks like someone to watch.
_Vernons Biggest - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:03 PM EST (#16653) #
Does anybody know if they are gonna bring back the Toronto Star Season Pass for next year? I heard a rumour that they weren't. The ticket office at the Dome wasn't sure themselves. I bought a 10 game pack for 100 level outfield, seeming that its the one place that welcomes my cow bell. But i like the Pass because it allows me to go to every game.
_braden - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:09 PM EST (#16654) #
That was a fairly disappointing chat. Very little insight.
_Tyler - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:13 PM EST (#16655) #
VBF, the pass isn't coming back. They cut off sales for 2004 early. We've discussed it extensively in different threads, and it's just not worth it for the Jays (their conclusion, and I agree; your mileage, like that of many here, may vary on that conclusion).
Mike Green - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:19 PM EST (#16656) #
For BBox veterans, a little story. I had to make a short car trip 15 minutes ago for mildly unpleasant reasons. Turned on the radio. "Patio Lanterns" comes on. A smile returns to my face.
_Four Seamer - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:28 PM EST (#16657) #
"Patio Lanterns" comes on. A smile returns to my face.

Kim Mitchell. Now there's a Great Canadian. The song is not quite as potent in November as it is in say July, but what a fabulous tune. A true classic. I trust they played the original, and not that bastardized remix they put on his Greatest Hits album a few years back...
_Lee - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:31 PM EST (#16658) #
I agree that Urbina would be a nice addition, but I would not want to add to his personal stress by trading for him with his family situation unresolved.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. IF the Tigers do offer him in a trade, SOMEBODY is going to bite regardless of his situation, you know? Might as well be us. Besides, I'm sure what uniform he's wearing next season doesn't concern him to terribly much one way or the other right now, anyways.
_Magpie - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:53 PM EST (#16659) #
Double vision when the bars close down.... double vision when the bars close down....
_Dean - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 06:09 PM EST (#16660) #
Thanks MatO, but who is Brian Grant?:-)
_Paul D - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 06:39 PM EST (#16661) #
I can't see Urbina being traded until things get straightened out. He's got some terrible stuff going on and might not play next year, so it doesn't make sense to trade him either morally, or from a strategic standpoint.
_Mosely - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 06:50 PM EST (#16662) #
"For BBox veterans, a little story. I had to make a short car trip 15 minutes ago for mildly unpleasant reasons. Turned on the radio. "Patio Lanterns" comes on. A smile returns to my face."

"...who was gonna be, who would be the first to kiss, under those Calle Johansons..."
Mike Green - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 08:06 PM EST (#16663) #
Yup, Mosely. No hockey, but pleasant memories.
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 08:37 PM EST (#16664) #
I can't post this on the Frick thread, so:

I don't know how much weight Jim Caple's 'endorsement' carries, but he just wrote a piece backing Niehaus. Judging by the number of votes ESPN.com gets on those ridiculous polls they do, it's clear that the readers rather enjoy voting and now they have someone to vote for...

Not to suggest that Niehaus isn't worthy, but if we're going to get Tom in I imagine the BB voter turnout operation needs to be stepped up...
_Tyler - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 11:36 PM EST (#16665) #
Doesn't Batters Box have friends around the internet? It seems to be linked to on a number of other baseball blogs I read. Why not expand the call? Have someone write a piece about why Tom Cheek deserves it, and ask some other places to run it.
_Noah - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:33 AM EST (#16666) #
http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=105124
Not sure if anyone else saw this but tsn is reporting that the Jays have made Matt Clement their top priority this offseason and that the interest is mutual. Their goal is to wait to make a signing until after the Dec. 7th deadline. COMN for the article.

I have to admit that Im a little bit shocked but I believe Clement could really be a solid starter for us. While his record wasn't stellar he had a lot of strikeout and a half decent ERA. A rotation of Doc/Clement/Lilly/Bush/and whoever certainly looks good.
_Jobu - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:12 AM EST (#16667) #
the Jays have made Matt Clement their top priority

*sound of Jobu's mind exploding*

This probably means Delgado is gone but I never expected the Jays to go after someone as "big" as Clement. And I don't see Marty York's name on the article either. Still, must be calm... must reserve judgement. Somethings are too good to be true.
_Ron - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:50 AM EST (#16668) #
Woah this Clement thing came out of nowhere.

I'm a big fan of Clement and I would geek out if the Jays signed him. He's in the prime of his career right now but I wonder what his price tage is? He made 6 mil last season and had an excellent season.

But even with Clement I don't know where the runs will come from.
I know their was an article in a Minny paper yesterday that said the Twins offered Koskie a 7 mil 2 year deal and said the M's and Jays were interested in him.
_Jobu - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:11 AM EST (#16669) #
Something's not adding up in Blue Jay land

How does a team with 13million to play with go out and say "we want Clement" and "We want Koskie" and "We want Delgado"?

One, or most likely two of those efforts must be pure smoke and mirrors. Unless their plan is to actually land one of the three and then just cut off talks with the rest.
Pistol - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 07:52 AM EST (#16670) #
Well, you can't get everyone you're interested in, or at least the Jays can't. If you're only interested in one player and you don't get him you don't have a pretty good plan.

I suspect the Jays have a number of different scenarios mapped out.

Clement is interesting to me since the Jays' primary need are bats and I imagine that he's going to be getting at least 3 for $20.
Pistol - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:00 AM EST (#16671) #
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20041119/JAYS19/TPSports/Baseball
COMN for the Globe story on Clement.

"J. P. [Blue Jays general manager Ricciardi] has told us they consider Matt to be their top priority, and that losing a draft pick might not stop him if there's an urgency."

"There are some guys who would make me move off that position (losing a draft pick)," Ricciardi said.


I'd be willing to give up a 2nd round pick to sign Clement.

Maybe someone else knows, why would the Cubs not offer arbitration to Clement?
Joe - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:42 AM EST (#16672) #
http://me.woot.net
I literally just laughed my ass off... :)

That's too bad. Hope the doctors can re-attach it... :)
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:48 AM EST (#16673) #
The Cubs might not want to get saddled with Clements contract should he accept arbitration, like Maddux and Millwood both did to the Braves a few years back. And they haven't really shown a lot of interest in resigning him, since they have a pretty solid rotation without him and need offence badly. But I'd still bet on them offering him arbitration.
On the plus side though, if the Jays lose their second round pick for Clement (because the Jays finished in the bottom 15 teams) they could still pick up an extra pick or two before that pick if they offer arbitration to Delgado, Zaun of Myers and they are signed by another team. Which would make the whole thing a wash, if not a little bit in the Jays favour.
Joe - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:49 AM EST (#16674) #
http://me.woot.net
Wow. At first blush, Clement's ESPN picture reminds me a lot of Batter's Box Roster member Leigh.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:06 AM EST (#16675) #
If they manage to land Clement, Lilly slides into the no. 3 role and the rotation suddenly looks well above average 1-4, and if Batista gets sorted and slots back into the rotation...I'm drooling. The offence is clearly a concern, but you can win games by preventing runs are well as scoring them, and the Jays look to be a strong pitching and fielding team - that is if a seemingly well-constructed bullpen doesn't manage to implode again.
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:13 AM EST (#16676) #
Today is the deadline for teams to submit their 40 man rosters. It will be interesting to see who is exposed to the Rule 5 draft... Davis Romero, Ron Davenport, Miguel Negron, Vince Perkins, Raul Tablado, Robinzon Diaz, Carlo Cota, John Hattig, Ismael Ramirez, Bubbie Buzachero, Dominic Rich, Chad Pleiness, Ryan Houston, Jordan DeJong, Tracy Thorpe... a lot of possibilities.

My guess is that the Jays will add Tablado, Negron, Perkins, Hattig, Ramirez for sure, as well as perhaps Diaz and Romero.

The Jays currently have 32 players on their 40 man roster and will likely leave one space open in case they want to choose someone in the rule 5 draft. They could also drop someone like Frederick, Glynn, Miller, Arnold or Cash from the roster.

My early pick for Rule 5 (keeping in mind that all the rosters aren't set) would be Angels minor league catcher Mike Napoli, who is currently playing in the AFL, but was not added to the 40 man roster yesterday when the Angels added 6 or 7 other players.
_Ryan C - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:21 AM EST (#16677) #
I dont want to read too much into anything, but if the Jays are seriously interested in a guy like Clement might it mean something for some of the current pitching staff?

Could Halladay, Lilly or Batista be close to being traded? I just cant see how the Jays could afford financially to have Doc, Clement, and Lilly in the rotation with Batista, and Ligtenberg (and Speier maybe) in the bullpen. That's alot of money in pitching for team without alot of money, and one that still needs offense from somewhere.
_Donkit R.K. - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:34 AM EST (#16678) #
Dream offseason (last year my two main dreams were Batista and Graffanino so this is a "realistic dream"). The Blue Jays get a first round pick for Delgado and move Eric Hinske for Cliff Floyd (possibly packaging Batista for an ace reliever (I have no real knowledge of the Mets bullpen/organization) or pitching prospect). On the free agent front, the Jays sign Coskie to a 8/6 deal and Matt Clement to a 10/8/5 deal. Floyd and Catalanotto can move through 1B/DH primarily with the odd day in Left for either guy.
_dp - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:38 AM EST (#16679) #
Why Clement, why now? Seems like a guy that will be overvalued in this market- the whole reason for not re-upping Delgado was so the team would have financial flexibility in the future to address whatever holes arise.

What sucks too is that the Lightenberg, Hinske and Batista deals, which have all worked out horribly so far, equal what it would take to get Delgado. There's got to be a way to clear at least 2/3 of that salary- normally I'm against "selling low", but when keeping the players in question is harming the team by restricting its flexibility, that's a problem.
_dp - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:40 AM EST (#16680) #
move Eric Hinske for Cliff Floyd

Just so you know, i totally pulled that out of my ass. makes a little sense, but has absolutely no basis in reality.
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:48 AM EST (#16681) #
Putting Floyd on turf would be a terrible idea. That's why he wanted out of Montreal. Too many injury issues.
_Vern - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:49 AM EST (#16682) #
Why would the Mets take Hinske when they have David Wright?
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 09:55 AM EST (#16683) #
Doesn't Batters Box have friends around the internet? It seems to be linked to on a number of other baseball blogs I read. Why not expand the call? Have someone write a piece about why Tom Cheek deserves it, and ask some other places to run it.

I would be quite happy to do this, as I think Tom deserves wider recognition for his body of work. BUT the problem is I don't have enough time to research and write such an article by myself.

I'm going to need someone to collaborate with me on it, at least by writing a first draft (to which I'm quite happy to contribute ideas) that I can then work with. You'll receive full byline credit, of course.

I know I can publish this at Hardball Times and get a link for it over at Baseball Primer (BTF, whatever). I can also whore for links from everyone else's blog (the all-baseball guys, and my Primer friends, Gleeman, etc.). It's not ESPN, not by a long shot, but it'll reach quite a lot of people.

In order to make maximum impact on the voting, I need to get something done by the end of Monday for posting on Tuesday, so that we can generate max exposure on Tuesday and Wednesday while people still have a week left to vote. So time is of the essence! We will need to have a first draft completed by tomorrow night if at all possible.

If you're interested in collaborating on this, and can spend a good chunk of time (probably a few hours) in producing something top-notch, then e-mail me now at cburley@hardballtimes.com. We'll be able to use two people actuallly, plus myself... I'm going to want one person to track down quotes from Tom's colleagues if possible (I have contact info).

An article like this is a big undertaking because while those of us here are familiar with Tom's body of work, others who are not Jays fans are not. They will need to be presuaded into action, also, and that is not an easy thing.

But if you think you're up to it, I will do what I can.
_R Billie - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:04 AM EST (#16684) #
I suspect the Jays are investigating trades with both Hinske and Batista to free up salary. But even if they don't, if Clement settles for the six or seven mil range then that's about half of the Jays' off-season budget with the rest to acquire 1B, OF/DH, and backups. Pretty tight but doable if you've added significant depth to the rotation.

I think JP is setting up some tradeable assets. You've got Lilly, Batista, and possibly Clement. If they have the seasons they're capable of having then you can ask a lot for them on the mid-season market. Clement is also one of the few guys whose power arms makes it safe to assume he can continue to be above average and possibly even improve. Assuming his late season health problems are nothing to be concerned about. If the Jays go 3/$20mil on Clement and he ends up injured that would be a crippling blow.
Pistol - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:08 AM EST (#16685) #
I dont want to read too much into anything, but if the Jays are seriously interested in a guy like Clement might it mean something for some of the current pitching staff?

Could Halladay, Lilly or Batista be close to being traded?


I can't imagine any scenario where Halladay would be traded. If the team didn't want to pay him he would have been traded last year. This team isn't shortsighted enough to sign Halladay last year and then go 'oh crap, we can't afford him anymore' a year later.

It'd be tough to get much for Batista given his 2004 season.

However, Lilly makes a lot of sense to get traded - he's currently cheap, he's coming off of his best year (he's an 'All Star' now!), he's left handed, he'll be getting $6-7 million next year which will likely price him out of Toronto, and the Jays best prospects coming up are pitchers. I think it makes a lot of sense to trade Lilly, and I think you could get a good, young bat in return for him.

So if you can sign Clement, who I think is at least Lilly's equal (admittedly I have not looked too deep), and flip Lilly for a bat you're going to come out way ahead down the road because in 2006 Lilly and Clement will have comparable salaries.
_DeMarco - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:11 AM EST (#16686) #
I am a big Clement fan, I would love the Jays to sign him. However unless the Jays improve the offense I won't be happy with the off season. The following would be my dream scenario:

- Jays sign Clement for 3 year $18 million contract
- Jays trade Hinske and Batista.
- Jays sign Koskie for a 2 year $8 million deal
- Someone else signs Delgado before December 7th, ensuring an extra 1st round draft pick for the Jays
- Jays trade for Erubial Durazo.
- Jays sign Armando Benitez and Matt Mantei.
_R Billie - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:13 AM EST (#16687) #
Why Clement, why now? Seems like a guy that will be overvalued in this market

Pitchers are overvalued in every market. Getting a pitcher at a decent price means trading which is similarly expensive/risky unless you manage a lopsided trade (Lilly, Kazmir).

So unless you're going to build pitching purely through the draft which can take years and years, you have to eventually supplement from major league sources. And that means investment and risk.

The Jays did not want to take the risk with Escobar but seem comfortable taking it now with Clement who would cost them a higher pick than they received for Kelvim. Kelvim's contract will likely be less than what Clement gets and I think Escobar is the better pitcher. Eventhough Escobar eventually received 3/$18, he might have settled for 3/$15 if the Jays had offered it straight away.

Well such is life. The Jays are weighed down with Hinske and they might as well hold on to Batista rather than sell low on him. I think he can only get better this year now that he's more familiar with the league. Batista was also hurt on a few occasions by bullpen blowups.
_Scott - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:14 AM EST (#16688) #
Has anybody heard the Fan this morning? Are they reporting that the Clement deal is actually done and they are waiting until after Dec. 7 to announce it. This is what I am hearing but can't listen to the Fan
_dp - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:19 AM EST (#16689) #
Putting Floyd on turf would be a terrible idea. That's why he wanted out of Montreal. Too many injury issues.

Putting Floyd in the field, any field, is a mistake. I think he'd be OK running the bases every now and then on turf. IIRC, he wasn't too bad of a fielder this season, and still runs the bases OK. He just hurts himself running in the OF, playing 1B, signing in the shower, ect. Tremendously undervalued at this point because he played through injuries in '04. Stick him at DH, and I'd bet on 130 games, .380/.520.

Why would the Mets take Hinske when they have David Wright?

First base? It wouldn't be ideal for the Mets, but they played Todd Zeile there in '04, so anyone would be a step up. OTH, I think Met 1B slugged under .350 and had a OB% under .300. That, for a team with a payroll so high, is truly an amazing display of ineptitude on the part of the GM/manager tandem.
_Vern - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:19 AM EST (#16690) #
So, what type of player could the Jays get for Lilly? I assume Minyana wouldn't be dumb enough to swap Wright, but would possibly do Reyes. Kearns? I wouldn't want to trade Lilly for anything except a very good bat a couple years away from arbitration.
_R Billie - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:22 AM EST (#16691) #
Lilly for Kotchman (slim possibility)? For Morneau (unlikely)? The Jays could ask a lot for Lilly right now what with his lefthandedness and good season and All-Star appearance. If you don't get a lot you don't trade him and enjoy him for another year at a good price.

I don't think it's forgone that they couldn't afford him for 2006 either. It all depends on what other moves are made. By that time Hinske could be moved, Batista could be moved, Ligtenberg's deal runs out. Hill, Quiroz, Adams, Gross, Hattig, Crozier, League, Rosario, Marcum, Vermilyea, Peterson, Chacin and others could prevent the need to allocate a lot of money to starting hitters, bench hitters, and veteran pitchers. This team is young now but could continue to get a lot younger by 2007.

Any number of things can happen to allow the Jays to support Lilly's contract.
_Scott Levy - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:44 AM EST (#16692) #
Why JP would refuse to offer more than 2 years to Escobar, but be willing to blow more than half his spending money for a similar but older pitcher is remarkable to me, and I'm a JP fan. That is so ridiculous, it's sad. Escobar will outpitch Clement for years.
_R Billie - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:46 AM EST (#16693) #
Lilly for Wright would definately work for me. I don't think you're going to get Wright cheap because Minaya is running the show now. But then again this is the guy who traded Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips for a few months of a veteran starter.
_Jonny German - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:47 AM EST (#16694) #
Some VORP totals to consider:
	Hal'day	Lilly	Clement	Batista	Escobar	Bush
2001 29.9 0.2 8.1 33.4 33.9
2002 66.1 23.4 41.3 13.8 12.8
2003 69.1 28.8 27.6 37.2 28.2
2004 26.1 44.6 36.9 22.6 53.2 20.6
_Braby - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:47 AM EST (#16695) #
I don't think Escobar would have had the year he had if he stayed in Toronto. Guys like him need a change of scenery to really show their stuff. He has some of the best stuff in the league, but I couldn't see him turning that corner with the Jays.
_Scott Levy - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:52 AM EST (#16696) #
Look at Escobar's numbers purely as a starter from 2001-2003 as a member of the Blue Jays. That was breakout material. The Jays screwed him up by flip flopping his role all the time.

Escobar will outpitch Clement next year, and for years to come. I'll put money on it. He'll be cheaper to boot.
_Grand Funk Rail - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:01 AM EST (#16697) #
Escobar will outpitch Clement for years.

You're delusional, my friend.

Grand Funk out.
_doctor_payne13 - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:03 AM EST (#16698) #
Has anybody heard the Fan this morning? Are they reporting that the Clement deal is actually done and they are waiting until after Dec. 7 to announce it. This is what I am hearing but can't listen to the Fan

I just listened to 20/20 sports on The Fan, they mentioned that the Jays have an eye on Clement, but nothing more. There were some new Vince Carter rumours though...
_DeMarco - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:06 AM EST (#16699) #
There were some new Vince Carter rumours though...

The proposed Shariff Abdul-Rahim plus others for Carter plus others deal from yesterday, or is there something new?
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:15 AM EST (#16700) #
According to the Portland papers, it's Carter, Rose, guard Milt Palacio and 6-foot-10 forward Jerome Moiso to the Blazers for Abdur-Rahim, [Derek] Anderson and reserve center Vladimir Stepania
_Scott Levy - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:20 AM EST (#16701) #
The Raptors want Nick Van Exel with Rahim, and the Blazers want to give up Anderson with Rahim instead. I think that's the hold up. Van Exel and Rahim are about 26 mil worth of expiring contracts, and that coupled with Marshall, is about 30 mil off the cap next season. I guess Babcock wants financial flexibility and blow up the core to build around Bosh and Alston.
_Braby - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:46 AM EST (#16702) #
I would endorse a Quick and Reef trade for VC and Jalen, but not Derek Anderson, too much to give up for one expiring contract and a pretty bad contract. Though there aren't many out there that are worse than Jalen's contract. Reef is a solid 20 and 10 man but disappears in the 4th quarter, Van Exel happens to be pretty clutch, so it may all work out. Problem is, there's no big name FA's out there next summer. Actually there are 2, and they play for the same team, Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis.
_R Billie - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:11 PM EST (#16703) #
Escobar had already broken out as a starter in 2001. But for some reason the Jays ignored that and stuck him back in the pen in 2002 when the rotation was still in shambles. The only reason his VORP wasn't higher in 2003 is because he was only a starter for a portion of the year. And of course his April as a reliever was uncharacteristically bad which throws off VORP.

The Jays basically mishandled him and didn't maximize his value. Although they might get some benefit out of the extra draft picks they got it pales in comparison to what they would have had if they had acted earlier to lock him up at a good price or kept him a starter and traded him at the peak of his value.

I'd say the chances are very good that Escobar can outperform Clement for about the same price, quite possibly cheaper. His stuff is better, he's slightly younger, his control is better, and he's already proven himself in the AL in some tough divisions. Clement could take a step forward or he could stay the same or he could suffer the same downgrade in performance Batista and many other pitchers do in changing leagues. The Jays knew what they had in Escobar (or at least should have known) and can't be sure that Clement will produce the same.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:13 PM EST (#16704) #
I'm giggling myself silly just thinking about a rotation of Halladay, Clement, Lilly, Batista (if he sorts things out) and Bush. That's as good 1-5 as any out there, and would certainly be the best in the division. Of course, the first 4 names on that list would represent a very large chunk of a limited payroll that also needs to help the offence. I do believe they can win without making any significant signings (other than Clement), but it's contingent on an awful lot of things going right e.g. Lightenberg recovering completely, Speier pitching consistently, major contributions from Wells and Rios, help from Syracuse early in the season (League, perhaps to help the bullpen) and a clean bill of health.
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:28 PM EST (#16705) #
Spike Lundberg has returned to the Box with more detailed answers to your followup questions.
_Cristian - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:43 PM EST (#16706) #
Escobar had already broken out as a starter in 2001. But for some reason the Jays ignored that and stuck him back in the pen in 2002 when the rotation was still in shambles.

Was it the Jays ignoring Escobar or was it the Jays being cautious with Escobarís arm? Didnít Escobar have an undiagnosed nerve problem at the time? In any case, it isnít fair to say that the Jays ignored him.
_JC - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:52 PM EST (#16707) #
http://www.skychiefs.com/roster.shtml
A few minor moves by the Jays:

Re-signed OF Anton French, SS Julius Matos and SP Josue Matos to minor-league deals.

Signed OF Ron Acuna from the Mets for AAA.

And judging by the updated roster for the SkyChiefs (COMN), a few players got the axe:

LHRP Jason Kershner
LHRP Dave Maurer
1B Shawn Fagan
2B Howie Clark
OF Chad Hermansen
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:55 PM EST (#16708) #
JC, where did yo get the French/Matos/Acuna news from? Thanks.
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:10 PM EST (#16709) #
Never mind, found it on the Skychiefs main page.
_Jacko - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:35 PM EST (#16710) #

However, Lilly makes a lot of sense to get traded - he's currently cheap, he's coming off of his best year (he's an 'All Star' now!), he's left handed, he'll be getting $6-7 million next year which will likely price him out of Toronto, and the Jays best prospects coming up are pitchers. I think it makes a lot of sense to trade Lilly, and I think you could get a good, young bat in return for him.

If by next year you mean 2006, then yes, you're correct. Lilly is on the books for 3.1 MM in 2005, which represents excellent value.

If Clement does come on board, then it would make a lot of sense to trade Lilly now, while is value is at it's highest. Lilly/Kotchman makes sense on some levels, but I find it hard to believe that the Tom Kotchman would greenlight the trading of his son...
_Scott Levy - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:46 PM EST (#16711) #
Was it the Jays ignoring Escobar or was it the Jays being cautious with Escobarís arm? Didnít Escobar have an undiagnosed nerve problem at the time? In any case, it isnít fair to say that the Jays ignored him.

In the off-season of 2001, the Jays used Escobar's nerve issue to move him to the bullpen for the 2002 season. They were looking out for Escobar's "future and health". Fast forward to 2003, Escobar stinks as a reliever, so they move him back to the rotation. Funny how using him as a starter in 2002 would be risking his health, but using him as a starter in 2003 was okay.

JP wanted Escobar as a reliever. The A's wanted Escobar in 2001 when JP was a member of the A's staff (Ash wanted Ramon Hernandez in return, I remember reading somewhere) for relief purposes. That's why he was moved to the bullpen, despite the "nerve" spinning that they'll probably use.

If the Jays kept Escobar as a starter in 2002, he may have been signed to a reasonable deal in 2003. Instead, he's pitching in Anaheim the way I expect Clement to pitch if he moves to the AL and stays healthy. Odd how JP would give half the budget for Clement, but wouldn't even go three years for Escobar.
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:57 PM EST (#16712) #
Are the Matoseses... related?
_Four Seamer - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:59 PM EST (#16713) #
Let's not forget that there were, and still are, serious off-the-field issues surrounding Escobar. Whether there is any veracity to the rather serious allegations that have been made against him I cannot say, but they do complicate the situation.

The man is also a serious headcase. There's no doubting his talent, but I agree with the opinion expressed above that he needed to go elsewhere to make the most of it. There was too much water under the bridge here in Toronto to allow him to truly succeed.
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:04 PM EST (#16714) #
"Matoseses" are not related.

I agree with what Four Seamer said regarding Escobar, plus he was a health risk (and still is) with the nerve problem.
_Nolan - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:53 PM EST (#16715) #
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/254323p-217758c.html
So Mo Vaughn is considering a comeback...he says he'd have to be DH...COMN

Would you sign him to a minor league contract and give him a go at DH with the Jays?
_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:08 PM EST (#16716) #
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041119.wange19/BNStory/Sports/
Jose Guillen to Expos. COMN.
_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:09 PM EST (#16717) #
...for Juan Rivera and a prospect, by the way.
_Four Seamer - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:16 PM EST (#16718) #
Would you sign him to a minor league contract and give him a go at DH with the Jays?

It's hard to see the harm in inviting him to spring training. I doubt he's got anything left, but if he's going to prove me wrong, the crow would taste a little better if he did it in a Jays uniform...
_Nolan - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:16 PM EST (#16719) #
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3177746
And the prospect is apparently Maicer Izturis...COMN

This past year, Izturis hit .338 with the AAA Trappers in 376 AB. He had 19 2B, 2 3B and 3 HR with a 57/30 BB/SO ratio
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#16720) #
Would you sign him to a minor league contract and give him a go at DH with the Jays?

Mo Vaughn could be healthier than a racehorse, and he still won't be a part of the next championship Jays team. I'd have to say no. He hasn't been an elite DH in seven years.

I mean, I'd invite him to spring training with a minor league deal, sure, but he'd have to be incredible to make the team. Mo's also a negative leader in my book, which counts strongly against him with an inexperienced ballclub.

I assume the Mets bought out his 2005 option?

Jose Guillen to Expos.

As a dog returneth to its vomit, so Jim Bowden returneth to his folly.

The thing is, of course, that Guillen was a bit of foolishness that worked out very, very well for Bowden. Of course, he got fired anyway.

Rivera's a better player than Guillen, and is loads cheaper. Oh, and he's also not a head case.

I'm enjoying watching the Expos crumble, having abandoned Montreal. If Frank Robinson hadn't come back as manager, I was rooting for them to lose 100 games.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:23 PM EST (#16721) #
Maicer Izturis? They gave away the better, cheaper, saner player, and threw in Maicer Izturis as well. Wow.
_Scott Levy - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:24 PM EST (#16722) #
Wow. Rivera is only 26, he's cheap, he hit .307-.364-.465 last season, and his walk to strike out ratio was excellent (34 walks only 45 K's). Than adding Izturis, just for the sake of adding a good, but cancerous Guillen for more than 3 million a year?

Note to JP. Call Washington now. Waive Chacin and Negron (he has tools...and stuff) in their face, and ask for Wilkerson. Hurry, before Bowden's stupidity pill wears off.
Mike Green - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:33 PM EST (#16723) #
There must be some kind of federal subsidy involved if the Nationals break $100 mil in payroll. In seeming madness, there lurks genius.:)
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:41 PM EST (#16724) #
Mike... yes, the Expos are trying to add payroll. The reasons are complicated and tax-driven, and I'll get into it in an article soon.
_Marc - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:44 PM EST (#16725) #
Plus, Guillen, Castilla and Guzman add more immediate value to the franchise then Izturis and Rivera. This is a team that needs to be sold and they need some "marquee" players... OK names that people recognize.
_sweat - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:59 PM EST (#16726) #
Might be better to offer them batista and hinske for wilkerson. Make sure they get up to 100M quick.
_Vern - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:35 PM EST (#16727) #
Seriously, what could the Jays offer to get Nick Johnson. Bowden is being a friggin' idiot and the Jays could use a 1b. The Nats need pitching and are willing to take on salary. Batista and Chacin for NJ or is that super wishful thinking?
_Lee - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:58 PM EST (#16728) #
The Jays screwed him up by flip flopping his role all the time.

That's certainly true. Escobar has tremendous talent but is a complete head case; I'm not sure why the organization refused to realize that he was the kind of guy who needs to have a defined role that he's comfortable with. That said, regardless of role Kelvim was always very inconsistent. I'd much rather have Clement.
_greenfrog - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:32 PM EST (#16729) #
My sense is that Clement is going to be expensive (say, 3 years, $24M). Make no mistake, I'd love to see him on the Jays. But he's no longer below the radar.

I wouldn't mind seeing JP sign Clement if he can dump Hinske (along with Batista, preferably). But I think he's going to have a hell of a time pulling this off. Both are coming off mediocre seasons and neither has much market value. (Then again, the Castillas and Lidles of the world are getting multiyear contracts, so you never know.)
_Wunderbat - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 06:25 PM EST (#16730) #
JP held back when negotiating with kelvim but is now going after Clement does make some sense. Maybe he would have given Kelvim the appropriate money but he didn't have the financial flexibility to do so, as Delgado's contract wasn't coming off the books last year. Now that he does have the money, JP can take a better run at that level of player.
Pistol - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 07:10 PM EST (#16731) #
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/discussion/24539
Partial UZR numbers are in a Primer thread. COMN - #52

Interesting notes:

Delgado was 3rd in the AL at 1b
Hudson was tied for 4th with Boone at 2b in the AL
Hinske was 3rd from last in the AL at 3B
Vernon Wells wasn't in the partial numbers indicating a place in the middle
_Jacko - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:02 PM EST (#16732) #

Rivera's a better player than Guillen, and is loads cheaper. Oh, and he's also not a head case.

Craig, I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself there.

Can Juan Rivera really be a better player than Jose Guillen when he hasn't yet:

(a) slug .500 in the majors
(b) hit 30 HR

Guillen has done both those things, Rivera hasn't...
_Tyler - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:25 PM EST (#16733) #
Sure, if you take age/opportunity into account. Compare Rivera's .301/.357/.454 with the .274/.317/.378 Guillen put up at the same age.
Thomas - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:41 PM EST (#16734) #
Yes, I would encourage JP to make every attempt possible to exploit the Jim Bowden Idiocy Train before someone derails it. Oh for three and counting, and none of them are even arguably good moves. Poor Frank, indeed.
_6-4-3 - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:08 PM EST (#16735) #
Yes, I would encourage JP to make every attempt possible to exploit the Jim Bowden Idiocy Train before someone derails it. Oh for three and counting, and none of them are even arguably good moves. Poor Frank, indeed.

I can just picture it now:

JP: "Hey Jim, we want Nick Johnson"
JB: Okay, but what would we get?"
JP: "Well, I could give you Alexis Rios or Brandon League, but you can also receive the contents of the MYSTERY BOX!"
JB: "I'll go with the box! League is League, but the mystery box could be anything! It could even be a flashy relief ace, like League! I've always wanted him!"
JP: "Ooh, tough luck, it contains the rights to Howie Clark"
JB: "He . . . he can throw 100 mph, right? No? Can you at least make him wear goggles? No? Well, I'll fax the paperwork over."
Pistol - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:18 PM EST (#16736) #
A new hijack central is up
_Lee - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 11:50 AM EST (#16737) #
Yes, I would encourage JP to make every attempt possible to exploit the Jim Bowden Idiocy Train before someone derails it. Oh for three and counting, and none of them are even arguably good moves. Poor Frank, indeed.

The Guillen trade is certainly at least arguable. He may not be the kind of guy that you want in your clubhouse, but his ability on the field is obvious.
Thomas - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 09:18 PM EST (#16738) #
I really don't think it is arguable when your team is going nowhere to sign a player who is about equal to Guillen's ability, but much younger and cheaper, as well a shortstop prospect (albeit one with no power) for Guillen. I can understand they are trying to drum up support for the Nationals but, as Tyler pointed out, "Compare Rivera's .301/.357/.454 with the .274/.317/.378 Guillen put up at the same age."

That's a noticable difference. I guess it is arguable in some sense, but it's not a good move, at all.
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