Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
About once a year, the Toronto Blue Jays take a kid out of the minor leagues and put him right into the starting rotation.

Warning: there is trivia involved!


Scott Richmond's first start last week got me to thinking about major league debuts for starting pitchers. We've had two this year, with Purcey (4.1 2 1 1 7 3 GS: 51) and Richmond (5.1 7 3 3 0 4 GS: 46), but is that unusual? Is it unusual for a pitcher to debut as a starter and not worked in gradually as a reliever first? What can you tell from a pitcher's first game? How good are these first games? So I went to Baseball Reference and educated myself.

First, defining our terms. I was looking for pitchers who filled the following criteria:
- they made their major league debut in a Toronto uniform
- as a starting pitcher.

I found thirty such pitchers. This is the thirty-second season of Blue Jays baseball, so that's about one per year. So apparently it's reasonably common, but not overwhelmingly so. There is, however, a bit of a distorting factor at work, in that four of the pitchers in question made their debuts in the expansion year of 1977, and then three more in 1979. Take out the expansion effect and the frequency falls further behind one-per-year. The longest stretch the Jays have had without doing this was in the mid-'80s: they didn't debut a pitcher as a starter at all in the 1983-86 seasons. Other years in which multiple pitchers have debuted as starters have been '89, '91, '95, '04, '06 and '08. (Two in each of those years.) A couple of those were years in which the Jays had significant success, so it's hard to see a pattern in there. Twenty-five of the pitchers were righthanders; five lefthanded. That's about normal, right?

If you can tell anything from a pitcher's first game, I don't know what it is. Of the eleven Jays that threw quality starts (Game Score > 50) in their debuts, seven never amounted to much and it's too early to tell about the other four. On the other hand, the four worst starts by debuting Toronto pitchers included two guys (Jim Clancy, 2 5 5 5 3 1 GS:24 and Chris Carpenter, 3 8 7 5 3 5 GS: 21) who became rotation mainstays for years. It doesn't even seem like the decision to give a guy a debut start has much to do with eventual success; the two consensus greatest Jays starters, Dave Stieb (6 6 6 5 2 5 GS: 41) and Roy Halladay (5 8 3 2 2 5 GS: 44) were both debut starters, but so was Mike Darr (1.1 3 5 5 4 1 GS: 25), whose debut start was his only major league game.

For some reason, more Jays pitchers have made debut starts against the Orioles than any other team: six. Most of the other AL teams are also represented on the list, and some National League teams as well (Mets: Pasqual Coco in '00 (4 5 4 4 5 2 GS: 33); Expos: David Bush in '04 (5.2 4 1 1 1 4 GS: 60); Rockies: Taubenheim in '06 (5 5 3 3 3 3 GS: 45)), but not the Mariners. Why not the Mariners? You'd think it'd be a natural.

Our thirty pitchers went a combined 9-14 in these games, for whatever that's worth. Mixed in there were two Cheap Wins (a win with a Game Score below 50) and one Tough Loss (a loss with a Game Score above 50). The Cheap Wins went to Luis Leal against the Yankees in 1980 (7.2 12 3 3 4 0 GS: 39) and Giovanni Carrara in '95 (5 7 5 5 5 2 GS: 30; this was a wild one. Anybody remember it? The Jays beat the Athletics 18-11!). It's a bit tough to call Leal's win cheap, because after all he only gave up three runs in seven-plus innings against the Bronx Zoo, but come on. Twelve hits and no strikeouts? The Tough Loss was Bush's game against the Expos, mentioned above.

There is one pattern that stood out. Of these games, twenty of them were at home and ten on the road. I imagine that that reflects a clear preference for giving the new guy the home-field advantage when it's possible to do that.

Another thing I was wondering about was, you always hear about a guy who's new to the majors having an advantage over all the hitters who've never seen him before, but how true is it? Are there a disproportionate number of debut starts that are particularly good games? I took the Game Scores and did a quick-and-dirty graph:

GS 10-19 X
GS 20-29 XXX
GS 30-39 XXXXXXX
GS 40-49 XXXXXXXX
GS 50-59 XXXX
GS 60-69 XXXX
GS 70-79 XXX

You can't tell anything from just thirty games, of course, but it doesn't look like an unusual pattern. Maybe there are a couple more games than I expected in the 60s and 70s, but I wouldn't want to put any weight on that.

By the way: lowest Game Score was registered by the hapless Jeff Ware against the White Sox in '95 (1.1 7 7 6 3 1 GS: 12); highest was Mauro Gozzo against the Rangers in '89 (8 3 0 0 3 4 GS: 77).

Here's the trivia part. Of the thirty men to make their major league debuts as a Toronto starting pitcher, I've already mentioned fourteen: Bush, Carpenter, Carrara, Clancy, Coco, Darr, Gozzo, Halladay, Leal, Purcey, Richmond, Stieb, Taubenheim and Ware. That leaves sixteen. Name them! Try to do it without looking it up, but I warn you, some of these guys are pretty obscure...
They're Gonna Light You Up Like a Pinball Machine | 54 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
TheyCallMeMorty - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#190312) #
Gustavo Chacin
Casey Janssen?

Zao - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#190316) #
Litsch
Jeff Musselman?
Zao - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#190317) #
What about Mark Eicchorn? I seem to think he began his Blue Jays career as a starter, I'm just not positive if he played for another team before that.
Mike Green - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#190318) #
Chacin, Litsch, Janssen and Eichhorn are good. Musselman is not. 

I guessed Stottlemyre, Guzman, Brow and Cornett.  Guzman and Brow are good.  Stottlemyre and Cornett each made 1 relief appearance before starting. 



fozzy - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#190319) #
What about Brandon Lyon? I remember a bunch of mediocre starts from him right around the beginning of the JP era.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#190320) #
I was in the house for a number of these games, most of whom you haven't mentioned yet (except Carrara.)  I also have the Media Guide at my desk, which lists every one of them.

Well, actually it lists just 24. Purcey and Richmond make 26. You have piqued my curiosity, Matthew!

Obviously I'm not going to play, except to confirm those being suggested. So yes, Eichhorn's one of them. And Litsch, of course. Gustavo Chacin and Casey Janssen as well. Guzman and Brow. With the 14 Matthews named, that makes 20. I got six more names in front of me, and Matthew may have four more!



Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#190321) #
I was in the house for Brandon Lyon's debut, against the Orioles. One of the best of these games, along with Litsch and Gozzo.

I quite quickly found two guys that the Official Media Guide missed. So I'm trusting Matthew on this one!
clark - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#190322) #

A few guesses from out in left field.

 

How about Marty Janzen, Alex Sanchez, Kelvim Escobar, Jose Nunez, Mark Lemongello.

Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#190323) #
Yes to Alex Sanchez.

Eichhorn, named already, is one of the four guys the Jays own Media Guide misses (I got 'em all now!)

Matthew E - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#190325) #
My wife and I were also there for the Brandon Lyon game. It was the first game she ever went to, as I recall. I had high hopes for Lyon.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#190326) #
To sum up where we are:

YES to
1-14 Bush, Carpenter, Carrara, Clancy, Coco, Darr, Gozzo, Halladay, Leal, Purcey, Richmond, Stieb, Taubenheim and Ware
15-18 Chacin, Litsch, Janssen and Eichhorn
19-20 Guzman and Brow
21 Lyon
22 Sanchez

NO to
Jeff Musselman
Todd Stottlemyre, Brad Cornett
Marty Janzen, Kelvim Escobar, Jose Nunez, Mark Lemongello

8  to go

Matthew E - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#190327) #
A lot of the ones you guys are missing are really long-ago ones.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#190330) #
Yup, but two of them will have you all just kicking yourselves.
Thomas - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#190331) #
Okay....names from the past.....what about Luis Leal, or is that too obvious?

A few other random names from the late 70's I know. Paul Mirabella? Mark Bomback? Phil Huffman? Dave Lemanczyk?
Blue in SK - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#190332) #
Hengten?
Thomas - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#190333) #
I missed Leal in the article. Nevermind on him, then. I'll guess Jim Acker instead.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#190334) #
YES on Phil Huffman, also overlooked by the Media Guide. 7 to go.

Matthew wrote "Twenty-five of the pitchers were righthanders; five lefthanded." How many lefties have you found?
Zao - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#190339) #
Dave Stieb?
David Wells?
Hodgie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#190340) #
Stieb has to be one, doesn't he?
Hodgie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#190341) #
Strike that, senility and poor eye sight and all...
mathesond - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#190342) #
How about Tom Filer?

And was Phil Roof a pitcher, or am I getting him mixed up with the aforementioned Phil Huffman?



Zao - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#190343) #
hmm well I have good eyesight, so I guess it's just senility.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#190345) #
YES on David Wells.


Anders - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#190346) #
Hrm my knowledge only goes back so far, but I'm pretty sure Dustin started as a starter.

After that... Justin Miller?

Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#190347) #
Phil Roof was a was a longtime catcher (good field, no hit) whose career concluded with 3 games with inaugural edition of the Blue Jays. He didn't catch anybody's debut, but he did catch one of the six missing guys.

NO on Tom Filer and Justin Miller, by the way.

And if by Dustin, you mean our very own Peaches or Chops or Bustin' or Manic or whatver we end up calling him... that would be another YES.

Wells and McGowan were the guys I was thinking of when I said you'd all be kicking yourselves. Now they get Obscure.

5 to go.

Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#190348) #
Combined career record (as a Blue Jay) of the five missing guys: 25-64. Only three of them actually won a game for the Jays. Only three of them even appeared in another major league season. We ain't looking for Lefty Grove!
NDG - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#190349) #
How about the great Canadian hope, Denis Boucher?
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#190350) #
YES on Boucher, 0-3 as a Blue Jay. And missing from this part of the Media Guide (they remember him elsewhere, though.)
Schad - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#190351) #
Boucher was a great catch. I was going to guess Chris Michalak (sp?), but he had a cup o' coffee with another team before his brief run with the Jays. What of the most anonymous man in baseball, Mike Smith? He definitely started a few as a rookie...and fared badly enough that I remember him.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#190352) #
YES on Mike Smith, also 0-3 as a Jay.

3 to go!

Zao - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#190355) #
Im pretty sure this guy was a reliever, but I've always wanted to say the name DeWayne Buice here.
Mike Green - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#190359) #
I found one of the guys, who I had almost completely forgotten.  His debut in 1979 was very good, but he didn't have a career.  Obscure hint: it would have been appropriate (if he could have time-travelled) for Scott Cassidy to close out his game.
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#190360) #
And he may also have a distant relative playing guitar for U2.

The other two were both featured in an off-season piece I did on Worst Pitchers Ever, sometime after Josh Towers' nightmare of a 2006 season. From it the Suckage Index, always a useful index of peformance, was derived.
ryan_the_canuck - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#190361) #

Butch Edge for the hints.

Jerry Garvin as another?  He came up young from what I remember.

And since my specialty is obscure mid-90s players, Paul Menhart?

Mike Green - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#190362) #
Cripes.  I thought of one (who is not obscure at all for those around at the beginning), but was sure that he had begun his career in relief. 
Mike Green - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#190363) #
Butch Edge and Jerry Garvin are right.  Menhart is not.


Matthew E - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#190364) #
One to go.

I honestly didn't think anybody was going to get Mike Smith. I had forgotten that the motorscooter had ever existed, tell you the truth.

Schad - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#190365) #
I remember Mike Smith only because I was impressionable enough at the time to think that any young Jay, no matter how bad, was going to be great in time. How wrong I was.

The last winner is tough, though. It has to be someone from the earliest seasons (probably '77-'79), when the Jays were trotting out anyone alive, because no one comes to mind. So many forgettable scrubs...

ryan_the_canuck - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 10:56 PM EDT (#190366) #
Dennis Debarr maybe?
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#190368) #
The last guy  struck out 3 of the first four Cleveland batters he faced. Perhaps the fans were thinking that a star was being born before their eyes. Not so.

He took a 4-2 lead into the seventh, walked the first two hitters and came out. The bullpen blew the game.

  Thiis fellow started, and lost, his final 9 major league appearances.
Ken M. - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#190370) #
Jerry Garvin??
Magpie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#190371) #
Garvin is a YES.  but we had him already.

I wonder if anyone really remembers this guy. I know who he is, and what he did - but I have no actual memory of him at all.

Matthew E - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#190372) #
He was before my time, anyway. Just a name on a list to me. Of course, so were Edge and Garvin and Darr.
Magpie - Saturday, August 09 2008 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#190373) #
It's still weird to me that I can't remember the last guy, can't summon up an image. I have no memory at all of Darr either, but hey - it was a one game career! He got four outs! Pretty easy to miss. I even have very dim recollections of Butch Edge. And I remember Garvin clearly - what he looked like on the mound, his leg kick. (I've almost certainly seen video of him since his career ended though, which would keep the memory semi-fresh.)


Matthew E - Saturday, August 09 2008 @ 08:37 AM EDT (#190382) #
Garvin was supposed to have a good pickoff move too, right?
CeeBee - Saturday, August 09 2008 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#190384) #
I'm pretty sure Garvin led the league in pickoffs at least once so yeah, it was a really good move.
Magpie - Saturday, August 09 2008 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#190391) #
Garvin had an amazing move. He was only able to spend one full season in a major league rotation, but he picked off 28 base-runners (and was called for two balks.)

When Garvin was 19 years old, in the Twins system, he pitched 201 innings in high A ball. A year later, he pitched 233 IP at AA and AAA. The Blue Jays took him in the expansion draft, and he worked 244 IP as a 21 year old rookie. He began to break down the following year, and his career ended at age 26.

For a 21 year old, on historically awful team, that 1977 season still shows all kinds of promise to me. What if...

Schad - Saturday, August 09 2008 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#190392) #
Well, I broke down and checked baseball-reference. I can't imagine that anyone will successfully guess the final contestant, though perhaps the opposing pitcher in today's game will jog a few memories...
Magpie - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 02:44 AM EDT (#190415) #
Photobucket

A 20 year old, who couldn't throw strikes, on a first year expansion team. Yeah, that was really gonna work.

You can find this image in many of your best modern dictionaries, under "Sacrificial Lamb"
Matthew E - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#190420) #
Here they all are:

1977 R Jeff Byrd 5 5 3 3 5 4 44 CLE ND
1977 R Jim Clancy 2 5 5 5 3 1 24 TEX L
1977 R Mike Darr 1.1 3 5 5 4 1 25 BOS L
1977 L Jerry Garvin 8 5 1 1 4 2 66 CHI W
1979 R Butch Edge 6.2 6 1 1 2 6 62 OAK W
1979 R Phil Huffman 6 7 1 1 0 3 57 at CHI W
1979 R Dave Stieb 6 6 6 5 2 5 41 at BAL L
1980 R Luis Leal 7.2 12 3 3 4 0 39 NYY CW
1982 R Mark Eichhorn 4.2 6 5 5 3 5 34 BAL L
1987 L David Wells 4 9 4 4 2 4 30 NYY L
1989 R Mauro Gozzo 8 3 0 0 3 4 77 TEX W
1989 R Alex Sanchez 6 5 1 1 5 1 54 MIN ND
1991 L Denis Boucher 5.1 5 4 3 1 1 44 MIL ND
1991 R Juan Guzman 4.2 6 4 4 3 5 38 at BAL L
1993 R Scott Brow 6 5 4 4 2 2 46 KCR L
1995 R Giovanni Carrara 5 7 5 5 5 2 30 OAK CW
1995 R Jeff Ware 1.1 7 7 6 3 1 12 at CHI L
1997 R Chris Carpenter 3 8 7 5 3 5 21 at MIN L
1998 R Roy Halladay 5 8 3 2 2 5 44 at TB ND
2000 R Pasqual Coco 4 5 4 4 5 2 33 NYM ND
2001 R Brandon Lyon 7.1 4 1 1 1 5 70 BAL W
2002 R Mike Smith 4 7 4 4 2 1 31 at ANA L
2004 R David Bush 5.2 4 1 1 1 4 60 at MTL TL
2004 L Gustavo Chacin 7 4 3 3 3 2 56 at NYY W
2005 R Dustin McGowan 5 2 1 1 3 6 62 TEX ND
2006 R Casey Janssen 4 3 3 2 3 0 43 BAL L
2006 R Ty Taubenheim 5 5 3 3 3 3 45 at COL L
2007 R Jesse Litsch 8.2 4 1 1 3 1 70 BAL W
2008 L David Purcey 4.1 2 1 1 7 3 51 DET ND
2008 R Scott Richmond 5.1 7 3 3 0 4 46 TB L

The formatting isn't perfect, of course, but it's better than I hoped for.
Evair Montenegro - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#190421) #
I think there is one more pitcher who debuted as a starter for the Blue Jays, it was in 1983.
Magpie - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#190423) #
This man should get a prize. It's 31, folks!

I'm always losing track of this guy because he has the same last name as a much more distinguished Jays RH.

Matthew E - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#190435) #
Oh. Son of a gun. How'd I miss him?
Magpie - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#190439) #
How'd I miss him?

You think your face is red? I just provided the names of Huffman, Eichhorn, Williams, Wells, and Boucher to the Jays PR staff. You know... the people who actually get paid for this stuff.
They're Gonna Light You Up Like a Pinball Machine | 54 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.