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John Farrell. DeMarlo Hale. Brian Buttefield. Sandy Alomar Jr. It is clear that the next manager will be one of these four men, but it is still not clear who. Farrell seems like the favourite, but this can be traced primarily to a Peter Gammons tweet which he has recently admitted was not as definitive as it originally appeared.

Feel free to discuss Farrell and the other three candidates here.
The Final Four | 71 comments | Create New Account
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Matthew E - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#224370) #
Is it clear? I wouldn't be surprised if the manager turned out to be someone nobody's mentioned yet. So far all we've got is rumours, right?
Craig B - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#224371) #
Well, literally everyone is reporting the same four finalists, although no one (well, I reviewed about 20 articles naming them, anyway) has named a source. But I think it's obvious that there is a source within the Jays that is reporting those four finalists. I'm not taking it as gospel but I think it's a solid working assumption.
Mick Doherty - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#224372) #

Let's see AA ca;ll a live media event press conference where he invites all four, then hands one of them a blue rose ...

Craig B - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#224373) #
As far as the candidates go, I don't know enough about Farrell or Hale to have a worthwhile opinion to offer.

I think Butter is a major league manager - whether he is right for this team, the front office probably have a reasonable idea at this point, having seen him work with these players for several years.

Alomar has been seen as a manager-in-waiting for a very long time. He has not "paid his dues" in the traditional way but has been doing good work.

I wouldn't object at all to bringing in someone from outside the organization to give a new look to things. I just hope Anthopoulos is getting a free hand here, he's earned it.
85bluejay - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#224374) #

First off, it's sad when a blowout MNF game between 2 small market teams easily beats out a playoff game between

NY & TX.

It seems all these reports piggybacked on Gammons tweet - believe Gammons at your own risk.

I would be stunned if Butterfield got the job - I don't think i can remember an organisation doing such due

diligence and then picking an internal candidate

ComebyDeanChance - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#224375) #
I don't see any basis for the inference that there may be some 'interference' with Anthopolous' selection.
Thomas - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#224376) #
The other issue is that while names have been added to the list throughout the process, once a name is off Anthopolous's list then this person clearly seems to be no longer in consideration (with the possible exception over whether Butterfield was a finalist or not). Nobody was talking about Alomar until a week ago or so, when news surfaced of his third interview and strong candidacy.

However, while the front office has been able to keep a lid on names that are being considered or have interviewed, once a name has shown up the "no longer being considered" list, it seems more definitive. For example, Martinez showed up and then he made a statement saying he was not in further consideration. Same with Rick Renteria on the Padres, who was promoted to their bench coach right around the time it was mentioned that he was no longer in contention.

I wouldn't treat the list as gospel, but I would be fairly surprised if it's not one of those four. Given that the front office has been less successful at controlling news about who is no longer being considered and that it seems that every candidate but these four is no longer in contention, I am going to assume that this is an accurate list of the finalists.
Mick Doherty - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#224377) #

First off, it's sad when a blowout MNF game between 2 small market teams easily beats out a playoff game between NY & TX.

True, but for what it's worth, locally -- where some might expect high school football to outdraw a Rangers' playoff game -- Game 1 was the #1 program in that timeframe for North Texas by, reportedly, 2:1!

John Northey - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#224379) #
Too bad Davey Johnson is 67 or I'd see him as a surprise last second candidate.

At this point though I'd suspect stealing someone from Boston would appeal to the Jays - get some inside info on their players, get a guy who knows how their system (generally viewed as a strong one) works, weaken that team by removing a top coach.

Still, the Alomar rumour is the most interesting to me. Imagine him doing very well and eventually we'd have two Alomar's on the upper levels.
Timbuck2 - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#224381) #
Let's see AA ca;ll a live media event press conference where he invites all four, then hands one of them a blue rose ...

Why stop at a press conference?  Why not have an hour long TV show:  "Blue Jays - the Decision"  Then at the end AA can hand a Blue Jay bobble head to the winner :)
92-93 - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#224385) #

First off, it's sad when a blowout MNF game between 2 small market teams easily beats out a playoff game between NY & TX.

Is it? NFL teams play a tenth of the games MLB teams play...so eventhough we are already into the playoffs and should be drawing more viewers, an NFL game would have to draw ten times the amount of viewers of an MLB game for it to be relevant, I'd think. NFL games wouldn't draw anywhere near their current numbers if they were playing 6 nights a week, so I hesitate to react to these media releases about viewership.

jgadfly - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#224387) #
According to CSN Sean McAdam's Twitter ( http://twitter.com/Sean_McAdam/status/28433973521 ) via MLBTR Alomar is out ... so who knows? 
Pistol - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#224389) #
an NFL game would have to draw ten times the amount of viewers of an MLB game for it to be relevant, I'd think

But you're looking at 1 of 16 games in the regular season against a best of 7 playoff series.  And the football game had one terrible team, two smaller markets, and as mentioned, wasn't competitive.

Having said that, I think looking at ratings is silly.  Who cares who watches what?  I'm not going to enjoy a game any more or any less based on how many other people watched it.  It'd only really make a difference if you're watching a show that might get canceled because of low ratings (which really doesn't apply to sports).  You'll probably see people saying we need to have a NYY / Phillies World Series because of the ratings.  Why?  Because we're worried about how much Fox makes (or doesn't lose) broadcasting it?
Gerry - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#224390) #

It sounds like the Jays have a big decision to make today..... (via Gammons)

I had three people yesterday who are very close to a couple of Toronto people tell me that it was definitely going to be John Farrell. But I was told during the night that Alex, the general manager, told the Red Sox people that he still hasn’t made up his mind, that DeMarlo Hale really appeals to him. He leans towards DeMarlo Hale, and Tony LaCava and other people lean towards Farrell,” said Gammons. “I think you may know by tonight. I think that decision is supposed to be made and they’re supposed to let the Red Sox know by tonight whether it’s going to be DeMarlo or John.

 

It's easy to see the leaks are coming out of Boston based on this account.

ComebyDeanChance - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#224391) #
I just saw this link on uglyone's board, where Gammons is changing the story completely.

According to this, Anthopolous wants Hale and LaCava and others are pushing Farrell. Assuming (and that's a big assumption) there's any truth to this, it's your shot Alex, you pull the trigger.

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2010/10/22/gammons-on-big-show-sox-very-worried-about-losing-farrell/
ComebyDeanChance - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#224392) #
That's what happens when you're a slower reader than Gerry. Sorry for the repeat.
Thomas - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#224393) #
Sean McAdam has just tweeted that Hale's been told he's out of the running. I have no idea if there is truth to this.
smcs - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#224394) #

It's easy to see the leaks are coming out of Boston based on this account.

That, and the fact that these rumors originated with guys who are closely connected to the Boston Red Sox.  It seems like none of the Toronto guys have a source or care.

ComebyDeanChance - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#224395) #
That, and the fact that these rumors originated with guys who are closely connected to the Boston Red Sox. It seems like none of the Toronto guys have a source or care.

I don't know that I would put it this negatively. It seems to me instead that the Toronto FO is trying to maintain an appropriate secrecy about the deliberations, while in Boston, where discussion no doubt includes the Boston FO given the impact it will have, there is less of a secrecy imperative. I wouldn't cast this as a negative about Toronto sportswriters. I think Gerry's right, and all of the sources for Gammons and McAdam are understandably linked to the Red Sox team and org.
joeblow - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#224396) #
This whole Boston Red Sox connection sickens me. Do we really want anything to do with them? Just imagine every single time we play in Boston we're going to hear "former Red Sox coach" from them. If you've ever had to suffer the Boston media, you know what I'm talking about.

Too bad Alomar is out. I'd take Butter at this point, or a dark horse candidate.

Gerry - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#224397) #

Let me be the first to congratulate John Farrell on becoming the new manager of the Toronto Blue Jays***

 

*** above comment based on heresay and deduction.  I accept no responsibility for its accuracy.

ComebyDeanChance - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#224398) #
*** above comment based on heresay and deduction

In the circumstances, 'heresay' seems an intriguing mix of, first, an account provided other than for the proof of its content with, second, the heretical notion that pitching coaches make good managers.
TheBunk - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#224399) #
Welp, good thing our general manager is a rational thinker and these silly arguments don't enter into serious discussion.
Gerry - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#224400) #

From Nick Cafardo, another Boston reporter:

Hale confirmed he's out. Farrell will get the Jays job if a contract can be worked out.The Sox must now find a new pitching coach which is one of the toughest areas to fill. Sox pitchers had been accustomed to Farrell's throwing program

 

Gerry - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#224401) #

More from Cafardo:

If Farrell is hired, Pawtucket manager Torey Lovullo, with ties to Farrell from the Indians system, would have a chance to be on Farrell's staff.

Lovullo was a managerial candidate himself, I believe he was considered for the Cleveland job.

smcs - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#224402) #
Somewhat off topic, but how are the Mets still debating Sandy Alderson vs. Josh Byrnes?  As soon as Alderson threw his hat into the ring, shouldn't he have been hired?
Mike Green - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#224404) #
I am sure that an official announcement is coming soon, and I can wait.  I have no idea what Cafardo's BBRRS (Batters Box Reliability Rating Service) rating is, but I'll take all of these rumours with a grain of salt. 
Mike Forbes - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#224405) #
Sean McAdam says that the Jays have offered Farrell the managers position.

Source from rotoworld.com, by way of Comcast Sportsnet.
Gerry - Friday, October 22 2010 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#224408) #
Monday and Tuesday are off days before the World Series lock-down on announcements.  Look for a Monday press conference to make the news official.
TamRa - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 01:46 AM EDT (#224412) #
Somewhat off topic, but how are the Mets still debating Sandy Alderson vs. Josh Byrnes?  As soon as Alderson threw his hat into the ring, shouldn't he have been hired?

Eh. Alderson is a gray hair - sometimes that works (see Pat Gillick) but the trend is towards the "young gun" GM so it's not necessarily a slam dunk. A lot of people think Byrnes got a raw deal and he's gonna be a steal for the next team that hires him.


On the Jays' situation - I'll be real curious to find out who from the current staff is coming back (I'm not assuming Butter leaves, he said a lot about wanting to stay regardless)  and I wonder how Alex feels about so much news leaking out during this process?


Magpie - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 03:55 AM EDT (#224416) #
Sox pitchers had been accustomed to Farrell's throwing program

How did that work out for them?
Gerry - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#224419) #

For what it's worth Bob Elliott says Farrell is the man.

The Red Sox have had had enough waiting and told the Jays to hurry up, setting a Friday deadline. Boston needed to put its own coaching staff together.

 

ayjackson - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#224422) #

There's some good Farrell media here, here and my favourite here.

Some of the images are quite damning, actually.

DaveB - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#224423) #
Sox pitchers had been accustomed to Farrell's throwing program

How did that work out for them?

To the extent that throwing programs are designed to prevent arm/shoulder injuries, I think you could argue it worked out very well. The only guy that I know of during those four years who had arm/shoulder injuries was Manny Delcarmen. There might be others, not sure. Dice K had some injury problems (back I think) related to a leg injury suffered while training for the WBC and he was famously uncommunicative to coaches and teammates about his health;  Beckett had a sore lower back this year.

Every pitching coach is going to have his success/failures but, on the surface at least, Farrell's successes far outweigh the failures. He turned Beckett around almost immediately in 2007 after a mediocre first year in the AL, developed Lester and Bucholz, Lackey had his healthiest season in three years with no elbow problems and pitched pretty well after the all-star break, Bard has emerged. Obviously their bullpen sucked this year most notably Papelbon, but his arm health is fine and his four-seamer is as fast as ever. He had issues related to control and secondary pitches.

One thing the Red Sox pitchers have done consistently in the four years that Farrell has been there is strike out a lot of batters. That takes talent of course but somewhere in there the pitching coach has to get some credit. Remains to be seen how Farrell will fill in his coaching staff but I'm sure he's noted the job done by Walton and might want him to stick around. Interesting times ahead with the coaching staff announcements. I suspect he'll bring in his own bench coach and that could be where the rumour of Torey Lovullo fits in.



Original Ryan - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#224431) #
Luis Rivera was likely to be on the coaching staff regardless of who the new manager was, but he might have an even better chance with Farrell.  Rivera was a manager in the Cleveland system while Farrell was Director of Player Development, and was later promoted to the major league coaching staff.  Rivera was the infield instructor when he was on Eric Wedge's staff, so he could wind up being Butterfield's replacement.
Magpie - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#224433) #
Farrell's successes far outweigh the failures.

Oh, agreed. Just causing trouble. It does strike me, however, that an awful lot of pitching coaches are either: A) guys whose careers fizzled out because they hurt their arms (Farrell, McCatty, Arnsberg) or b) guys who weren't really good enough to have a career (Cooper, Kranitz, Anderson.) There aren't that many pitching coaches who had fairly long major league careers: Righetti, Belcher, McClure. Rick Honeycutt. Who else?

Well, the other guys all got an early start on their coaching careers, I suppose.
Mick Doherty - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#224435) #
I don't think he's in coaching still, but Don Gullet was an All-Star and cashed in on free-agency before hurting his arm, and was a widely respected pitching coach, was he not?
Ryan Day - Saturday, October 23 2010 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#224436) #
Isn't that true of most coaches? There aren't too many hitting coaches who did much with the bat - Rudy Jaramillo is a hitting guru, but he never even made it to the majors. There are some good hitters, but plenty of guys like Cito Gaston, who had one or two good seasons.
Magpie - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#224438) #
Isn't that true of most coaches?

Yes, and more so today than ever. Coaches work very hard, and guys who were stars and made a lot of money from the game generally aren't interested in all the travel, in hitting all those fungoes, in pitching BP....

I was quickly scanning the list of guys who won 200 games in the major leagues and while there are doubtless others, the only two that I'm certain became major league pitching coaches were Bob Gibson and Orel Hershiser. Although I think Warren Spahn did work as a minor league pitching coach...
DaveB - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 12:40 AM EDT (#224439) #
Bob Lemon would have to go on the list of great pitchers who had success as a coach and/or manager. I'm not sure he was a pitching coach very long between managing stints with the Royals, White Sox and Yankees, but he had at least one year as the Yankees pitching coach  before replacing Billy Martin the first time he was fired by Steinbrenner.





Original Ryan - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 12:57 AM EDT (#224440) #
Yes, and more so today than ever. Coaches work very hard, and guys who were stars and made a lot of money from the game generally aren't interested in all the travel, in hitting all those fungoes, in pitching BP....

...or going to the minor leagues to start their coaching career.  I think that might be one of the biggest hurdles.  While a few former players do start coaching at the major league level (Don Mattingly and Mark McGwire come to mind as recent examples), most coaches have to spend a few years working in the minors initially.  That means small cities, mediocre post-game spreads, long bus trips and Super 8 motels.  It's quite different from the lifestyle those guys are accustomed to.
Gerry - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#224448) #

The final proof that John Farrell is the new manager comes from Red Sox owner John Henry:

"The Jays are getting a great baseball man and a great person,'' John Henry wrote in an e-mail to the Boston Globe of Farrell. "We were able to keep John as a part of our organization longer than a couple of other teams would have wanted, but it really is time for John to step up to the next level."

"He will be an effective, excellent manager," Henry said of Farrell. "I expect him to manage in MLB for as long as he wants to. He's going to an excellent young team with a strong and smart hierarchy. The Blue Jays are going to be a force in the AL East for some time to come. I am grateful for the years John Farrell gave to the Red Sox. He will be missed.''

China fan - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#224449) #

 Let me repeat those inspirational words from the Red Sox owner, and hope that it's more than just polite flattery:

He's going to an excellent young team with a strong and smart hierarchy. The Blue Jays are going to be a force in the AL East for some time to come.

ayjackson - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#224452) #
Amen!
bpoz - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#224454) #
I hope Jays officially announce their manager soon. I too think the Jays are a young team. Soon that first 90+win season will occur then we will make the moves to be a ML East force.
joeblow - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#224455) #
The final proof that John Farrell is the new manager comes from Red Sox owner John Henry:

Kiss of death. Red Sox curse, in hibernation for a few years, awakens and moves north of the border.
Chuck - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#224462) #

I hope Jays officially announce their manager soon.

I believe that baseball announcements are not permitted during the World Series, so I would imagine the announcement would come Monday or Tuesday.

earlweaverfan - Sunday, October 24 2010 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#224465) #
Soon that first 90+win season will occur then we will make the moves to be a ML East force.

I think Farrell will be the guy who will build a Jays powerhouse over the next several years, and will make our roster of strong young pitchers into the best they can be (crossing fingers about injuries...).

And AA has been clear that he is willing to sacrifice short term gain, if he can build a foundation for success over many years.  When he is convinced the foundation is there, we are told, he will go to the owners and seek their support for the final pieces that he needs.

And the consensus on this site is that the next 10 wins per year will be much, much harder to pick up than the last 10 were.  But is that really so?  How many big steps would it take to close that 10 game gap, really?

If I were AA for this winter (like being King for a day), I would seek Rogers' approval for the following major steps:
  • Four free agent signings for 3 years in length:  Downs, Benoit, Thornton and Konerko (yes, I know their ages, but these three pitchers would anchor our pen, Thornton would be a far more dependable closer than Gregg, and with Konerko in the batting lineup, we would get a lot more power, more average, and better performance vs. LHP); and individually and collectively, they are all highly dependable year over year; we would be giving up compensation for two A picks plus a B, while getting compensation for Frasor
  • A trade for Kelly Johnson (Hill shifting to 3B) (for a package of the calibre of Rzep, Carlson, Camp, and one of Farquhar/Farina/Magnuson, to substantially attack the D'backs' pitching gaps; I would even give up a prized pitching prospect like McGuire); if this does not work, a package for Uggla or Weeks, or ...?
  • Let Frasor, Gregg, Overbay, Lewis and Wise find jobs elsewhere;
  • Bring just three players up from the minors - S. Hill or Drabek, plus Mastroianni and Emaus for speed, defence and OBP
Note that the only step requiring the support of another team would be the acquisition of Johnson.  Also, note that there are alternatives to each of these steps within the Jays' capacity to pull off, assuming that one or more of the free agents decides to go elsewhere.

Two major imponderables remain, but I believe that one is a 50/50 proposition and the other could be slanted in one direction, if you wanted to go for it in 2011:
  • Do you want to keep Lind at DH or re-sign Encarnacion and put him at DH?  My instinct says that EE can be taught to be a consistent 35+ HR hitter as DH, and Lind could be traded.  EE also has a much better split vs. LHP.  Others might prefer Lind's hitting prospects, thinking he can come back to his performance of 2009.  Either scenario is highly consistent with a pennant-winning 2011.
  • What about Buck vs. JPA?  If I was going for it in 2011, I would re-sign Buck (who would love nothing better than to get the contract he wants in Toronto) and trade JPA for a big chunk of prospect talent at, say, 3B, OF, or 1B, knowing that by the time that Buck starts to fade, Carlos Perez could replace him. 
  • I would be willing to let Lind and/or JPA be part of the package I would trade to complete the 2B/3B solution trade
So what would you say is a) not feasible about this overall scenario or b) too costly in giving up future talent for a short term gain, or c) likely to be a big remaining weakness in going after the AL East pennant?

And even if this version of the Jays fell short of 96 wins, can you imagine how much fun it would be to watch MLB's best pitchers going up against these 9 batters:
  • Escobar
  • Snider
  • Bautista
  • Konerko
  • Wells
  • Johnson
  • Hill
  • Encarnacion
  • Buck
Of these, only Escobar would not be able to hit 20+ HR; of the rest, only Johnson and Buck would be unlikely to hit more than 30 HR.
Magpie - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 05:01 AM EDT (#224466) #
Incidentally, Farrell appears to have a preferred uniform number - he wore 52 as a player and as a coach. Luckily, it's not being worn by a player and I'm sure Omar Malave would be happy enough about coming back to give it up gladly.
China fan - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 05:01 AM EDT (#224467) #

Stephen Brunt's take on the new manager, from today's Globe and Mail:

"Farrell is not a caretaker. His job will be to win. He is a pitching coach by trade taking over a team deep in live arms, and arrives at a time when the critical talent mass seems nearly there. A season or two from now, the owners will be expected to dip into their pockets to pay for the final pieces, and then the Jays will take their once-in-a-blue-moon shot."

Mike Green - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 09:16 AM EDT (#224471) #
By all accounts, Farrell has plenty of smarts.  The hope is that his relative lack of managerial experience will not be a major issue, as his learning curve will be steep. 

This is the first season since 1993 when I felt that the Jays were as good as either of the teams in the World Series (well, at least until the Rangers' Cliff Lee late-season acquisition). 

China fan - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#224473) #

.....Do you want to keep Lind at DH or re-sign Encarnacion and put him at DH?.....

I think AA is committed to the Lind-Hill gamble for another half a season, at least.  In other words, AA will gamble on a bounceback by both of them, since their chances are just as good as those of any potential replacement.  But if they continue to stink for most of the 2011 season, he's not a sentimental guy -- he'll be looking around for replacements.

As for Encarnacion -- he made $4.75 million in 2010 and will be due a salary increase in arbitration.  I just don't think AA wants to pay $6-million for a DH with a .305 OBP.  Lind will surely do better than that in 2011, even though he failed to do it in 2010.  In any case, neither Lind nor Encarnacion have much trade value at this point.  No point in keeping both of them, and Lind is the more likely to improve in 2011.

bpoz - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#224476) #
Earlweaverfan,

Well done. AA mentioned better OBP and bullpen, you have addressed that quite reasonably.
But let me ask did we under or overachieve with the 85 wins. How accurate was our performance?

IMO regarding only the 2010 season the Jays were forced to do some things that hurt them:
1) Pitch limitations meant shutting down Morrow & going to a 6 man rotation. While it is not definite the 6-7 days off between the odd start for our remaining big 3 SP IMO hurt their performance.

IMO while not forced on the Jays Accardo & Valdez were given their jobs rather than compete for them, just in case they became valuable. Eveland did enough to get the 5th SP spot, Cecil & Zep got injured and so lost their opportunity at it, Mills was not given a fair chance at it as he got demoted very fast. All this was based on options remaining not selecting the strongest team. That was clearly stated as organization building strategy.

Also IMO Morrow too did not earn his spot in the rotation but was just handed it. But that decision saved an option and most importantly worked out very well. Morrow's good results only start in June, right.

So based on that I think a case can be made for more wins maybe 92instead of 85. We have to keep all the injuries, All good and bad performances and all the strategic moves and the same luck factor because it happened.

2011 will bring its own factors to US and our competition. Who will have injuries and I WILL state that Baltimore will be better in 2011.
earlweaverfan - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#224477) #
As for Encarnacion -- he made $4.75 million in 2010 and will be due a salary increase in arbitration.  I just don't think AA wants to pay $6-million for a DH with a .305 OBP.

The scenario I heard was that EE would not be offered arbitration, would try his hand at the free agent market (presumably as a 3B) but then when he discovered reality, he might be amenable to re-sign with the Jays at a dollar value that would reflect his real market value, and as a possible DH.
Matthew E - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#224478) #
No idea what kind of job Farrell's going to do, but I appreciate the thoroughness of Anthopoulos's hiring procedures, and I'm glad they're bringing somebody in from outside the organization. The Jays have been drinking their own bathwater for too long.
Magpie - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#224479) #
[Encarnacion] made $4.75 million in 2010 and will be due a salary increase in arbitration.

He is not automatically due an increase - the arbitrator will decide, and a guy who was actually designated for assignment, with no takers, doesn't really have that great a case to make. The problem is, you can't cut him by more than 20 percent. Even if Toronto were to offer him arbitration, they'd still have to offer him at least $3.8 million. Which he might be very happy to take, all things considered.

There's about five weeks to see if there are better options out there.
China fan - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#224480) #
If the arbitrators look only at Encarnacion's hitting numbers, they'll see only the .787 OPS this season -- ignoring the fact that it was inflated by his September hot streak -- and they won't notice his shoddy defence at 3B.  They can't officially pay attention to the fact that he was DFA'd with no takers.  There's a distinct risk that they'd see him as qualifying for a raise.  To bring in the other factors like the poor defence, the Jays would have to go to the arbitration hearing and point out all of Encarnacion's negatives -- not a good way to produce an enthusiastic hitter in 2011.
Magpie - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#224481) #
I think a case can be made for more wins maybe 92 instead of 85.

How? This strikes me as a real stretch. To the extent that things are losing their shape and can no longer be recognized...

Maybe if Cecil and Rzepcznzki don't get hurt in the spring and spend the whole year in the rotation - no screwing around with Eveland, Tallet, Litsch, etc. That might get you up to 88 or 89... Maybe.
Magpie - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#224482) #
While it is not definite the 6-7 days off between the odd start for our remaining big 3 SP IMO hurt their performance.

It may not have hurt the club that much - Marcum, Romero, and Cecil went 9-2 in their 16 September starts. The team played 30 games in September/October, so you'd expect them to start maybe 18 of those games. They each started twice with 6 days rest in September. Cecil won both his games, Marcum split his, Romero had a win and a ND.
earlweaverfan - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#224492) #
But let me ask did we under or overachieve with the 85 wins. How accurate was our performance?

Unless Pythagoras tells me we won far fewer games than we cudda, shudda, wudda,  I find it difficult to base my case - that we can contend in 2011 -  on that argument.

Let's build up the sources of wins the other way (yes, I know, AA says he doesn't do that, but how else do you assess when you are ready to make the big investment to bring in the last few pieces?).  I will try not to be outrageous in my assumptions

  • I look to Farrell's expertise and a general maturation of young staff to pick up an average of 1.5 more wins per each of the first four starters - they could do much better than that, or instead fall back.  Still, this is the age and stage that they are going to find more consistency, and adding the skills from the new regime to what they learned from the previous regime (e.g., a dependable change-up) will make this eminently possible [+6]
  • The fifth starter role has four candidates, it seems to me - Drabek, Rzepczynski, Stewart or Hill, and my guess is that Hill is your man in the near term.  But if any one of them begins the season and falters, the Jays surely have a capacity to go with somoene who could, by season's end, add two more wins than the previous grab-bag of candidates did over this past season [+2]
  • The above improvements assume that the Jays produce the same number of runs as last year.  We can be sure, however, that a real focus on improving on-base percentage will put some baserunners on for the sluggers to drive home.  My avatar namesake, Mr. Weaver, was quite repetitive on the subject of the "three-run homer", not the "solo homer".  If my suggestion of acquiring Konerko and Johnson and losing Overbay, Lewis (and EE at 3B), came about, we could add a net of, say, 20 more home runs and also ramp up the OBP, even if Hill and Lind did not return to 2009 performance.  I think many of us feel that Snider will come into his own and add a lot of SLG and OBP next year.  So on this scenario, I see an increase in runs generating more wins [say, +3]
  • My proposal for FA signings would lead to an improvement in the pen, but let's say that the best AA can do is to keep us even there
  • At this stage, we are up 11 wins on this season before making adjustments, i.e., the magical 96 wins
  • Now recognize that quite likely, 2 of those wins each would come from the hide of the Yankees and the Rays, so that the magic number might drop to 94 or so
  • Of course, we can't know which of the AL East teams will be more hit by injuries or will take longer to bring those players back; we can't know whether the Orioles will improve more at the expense of the Jays or of the Sox, Yankees or Rays; we can't know whether the Jays will learn to defeat their nemeses from the NL, at long last, and so on...
My point is, a gain of 10+ wins is not beyond reach, or beyond a reasonable outcome from an investment this winter - n'est-ce pas?




TamRa - Monday, October 25 2010 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#224525) #
As for Encarnacion -- he made $4.75 million in 2010 and will be due a salary increase in arbitration.  I just don't think AA wants to pay $6-million for a DH with a .305 OBP.

I'm as certain as i can possibly be that EE will not make one nickel more than $5 mil next season.

And if he's with the Jays he'll agree to a one year deal between $4.5 and $5 mil before the non-tender date ..and he might even do so even if we are not sure we'll use him next year just in terms of hording assets while we have the money to afford to do so.
Magpie - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 01:53 AM EDT (#224537) #
Unless Pythagoras tells me we won far fewer games than we cudda

They didn't - they won one more than Pythagoras expects.

To get to 95 wins, they would need to improve by 100- 120 runs. Let's say 40-50 on the offense (which was a little better than league average) and 60-70 on pitching/defense (which was a little worse than league average.)

However, there is simply no way I see them hitting more home runs in 2011 than they did in 2010. They need to get more people on base, obviously. And we start with the knowledge that only two the four guys on the team who were better than the league average on getting on base are likely to be back (the assumption here is that Lewis and Overbay are gone, which leaves Bautista and Wells.)

While there's more room for improvement on the mound, simply maintaining this year's level of offensive production is likely to be the bigger challenge.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 06:05 AM EDT (#224541) #

AA will be investigating trades before considering Free Agents.   Our biggest assets in trades are the pitchers.   I would keep Ricky Romero, Brandon Marrow, Brett Cecil, Kyle Drabek, Shawn Camp, David Purcey and Taylor Buchholz.   I would trade the rest of the Staff, if neccessary.

I would trade Shaun Marcum if a Stud was coming back in the deal.   I would trade Marc Rzepczynski if a Stud was coming back in the deal, but it must be a separate deal than the Marcum deal.   I would add Zach Stewart to either deal to add substance and top value to that deal.   Shawn Hill, Jesse Litsch, Brad Mills, Scott Richmond and Robert Ray can be traded to add depth to a trade.  Jesse Carlson, Casey Janssen  and Josh Roenicke will add value to any deal with Jeremy Accardo, Brian Tallet, Rommie Lewis and Dirk Hayhurst will add depth to any deal.

I would trade Travis Snider and/or J.P. Arencibia if a Stud was coming back or as part of a bigger deal.   I would trade minor prospects as needed.

Why?   We finished with 85 wins!   Much more than most people originally expected.

Get an Ace for the Staff.   This should be worth at least 2-3 more wins.   Zach Greinke is being shopped by K.C. and I think we can put together a better package for him than the Yankees can.

Get a better 5th Starter.   This should be worth at least 2-3 more wins.

Get a Stud Closer.   The Team is ready for one.   This should be worth at least 2-3 more wins.   Might I suggest Jonathan Papelbon or Rafael Soriano, plus picking up the option(s) for Kevin Gregg.

Upgrade the Bullpen.   Almost anything could make it better.   This should be worth at least 2-3 more wins.

Upgrade the Outfield.   Finding a Centerfielder to replace and shift Vernon Wells to Left or Right Field.   This should be worth at least 2-3 more wins.   Colby Rasmus might be available.

Upgrade First Base.   Improving on Lyle Overbay and sparing us Adam Lind at first should be worth at least 2-3 more runs.   Prince Fielder might be available.

Upgrade Third Base.   This should be worth at least 2-3 more games.

The New York Yankees must go after either Cliff Lee or Zach Greinke.   The Post-Season showed that.   Texas has enough money to re-sign Cliff Lee ( $80 milion TV deal signing bonus + Post-Season revenue of $40+ million + regular revenue of $75-80+ million).   Some else (Blue Jays perhaps) will get Zach Greinke.   New York might be hard-pressed to win 95+ games next year.   The Boston Red Sox will have trouble replacing John Farrell.   Missing the Playoffs the last two years means they`ll be breaking the team down to start again (calling it Re-tooling) and will be hard-pressed to win 90+ games.   Tampa Bay can`t fill the Stadium, even this past year.   As a result, they are cutting Team Salaries to $60-ish million.   They will be very hard-pressed to win 90+ games.

I just don`t think we will have trouble contending next year, providing we fill at least two holes with the best possible people.

bpoz - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#224549) #
Hi Guys,

Some of my statements about the 2010 season and the 85 wins were quoted. I feel so good about that.

We have 2 analysis going on
1)Was the 85 wins a reasonable reflection of the team. Which was my question and I gave my opinion.
2)Based on the good 2010 performance, we can make some moves in the off season and do even better. This is great but it was not my intention. I am enjoying reading the 2011 opinions for better/worse/same results.

It sure feels a lot better going into this off season than last off season.

IMO AA did not even try to contend in 2010 and he gave his 2010 goals and reasons.
AA has stated that he always wants to improve the overall talent level of the whole organization. His priorities for the ML team are OBP and bullpen. So I expect to see his results by Feb 2011, IMO some sort of unproven stud potential.
I am not sure but it seemed to me that AA did nothing much to improve the 2010 team. Halladay brought nothing to the ML team in return, Morrow was no sure thing and all our FA acquisitions were not big names. It seemed youth (4SP) and playing opportunity to various individuals provided the improvement over 2009.

For every year IMO the 2 biggest variables are injuries & unexpected individual performances. Acquiring a stud is not a variable IMO. Boston had bad injuries.

Chuck - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#224556) #
I see many analyses where the team's 85 wins in 2010 are considered the starting point for 2011. Further wins are then forecast based on rebounds from slumping players, continued growth by young players and by the addition of new players. I imagine that there are 30 sites like this forecasting an additional 10 wins for their team in 2011, all using this same approach. At an inoccuous Minnesota diner, Garrison Keillor surely sits and laughs.

A sounder methodology would be to start the analysis from scratch. Tools that forecast player performance are certainly fraught with variability, but to my mind they represent a fairer starting position. Forecast the player performances for 2011, translate those into your metric of choice, say runs created/prevented, tally the team's total forecasted runs for/against and convert that into a W-L record.

To bpoz's point, that forecast will be ultimately greatly ravaged by two factors that are difficult to predict: injuries and extreme performances, both good and bad. But what can you do? You model what you can model.

Analyses that tacitly presume that Bautista stays at an MVP-level, that the gains made by the young starting pitchers all stick and that further gains are to ensue, that the near-league record homerun output is going to be repeated... well, I don't know how realistic those are.

I'm not saying that there is no basis for optimism for 2011 and beyond. Not at all. I'd just prefer that any analyses that defend that optimism be born of a sound methodology.
China fan - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#224561) #

....I'd just prefer that any analyses that defend that optimism be born of a sound methodology....

Unfortunately, despite decades of efforts by statisticians and sabermetricians, nobody has yet found a methodology that accurately predicts the future.  To say that one method is more realistic than another method -- well, maybe, but ultimately it's all a guess.

bpoz - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#224577) #
I accept that the variables make our well thought out analysis of strengths & weaknesses and then predictions so uncertain. ie Guesswork!!! So Bautista fooled me in 2010 but Hill/Lind fooled me back to back.

BUT somethings are reasonably predictable. 90 wins could get you into the playoffs in quite a few other divisions and in quite a few years.
So TB improved short term 2008 and going forward and NYY & Bos can have 1 bad year every 5 years IMO. So to me that can be our window for a playoff spot.
Just throwing it out as a possibility. You know guessing again.
earlweaverfan - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#224578) #
However, there is simply no way I see them hitting more home runs in 2011 than they did in 2010. They need to get more people on base, obviously.

So, embedded in your comment, Magpie, are two beliefs that I would (gently) challenge.  The first of these is that there is "no way" they could hit more home runs next year.  The second is the implication is that a greater focus on OBP will, at least to some degree, be at the expense of SLG.

Let's look at the first one, using estimates that try to be neither strongly conservative nor strongly generous.  The first number is HR this year, the next number is 2011, and the third the net change:
  • Shortstop (Gonzo plus Escobar vs. Escobar by himself) (21, 10) [-11]
  • RF (Bautista vs. Bautista, ignoring where he actually fielded) (54, 45) [-11]
  • 3B (EE this year, Hill next; showing some, but not full, recovery to meet his peak) (20, 32) [+12]
  • DH (Lind vs. Lind, assuming he does not go to first base, showing some, but not full, recovery to meet his peak) (23, 28) [+5]
  • LF (Snider vs. Snider; dealing with Lewis & co. further below, reflecting TS's maturation and full year hitting) (14, 35) [+21]
  • CF (Wells vs. Wells, reflecting his age, assuming he will gently decline from here on) (31, 25) [-6]
  • C (Buck + Molina + Arencibia vs. Arencibia + Molina) (28, 17) [-11]
  • 2B (Hill this year, Kelly Johnson the next, the latter staying flat vs. this year) (27, 26) [-1]
  • 1B (Overbay this year vs. Konerko next year, the latter hitting 4 fewer than this year) (20, 35) [+15]
  • Other fill-in players (Lewis, Wise, McDonald, Ruiz vs. McDonald, Emaus, Mastroianni, but with many fewer at bats than this year) (18, 8) [-10]
  • Total impact of the changes [+3]
Of course, this is dependent on picking up two key players known to be available (one FA and one by trade), and on no major injuries.  On the conservative side, however, it is dependent on Wells, Bautista falling off significantly, on a slow-starting version of JPA replacing Buck (still a big debate), on Hill and Lind not recovering their past peak HR production, and on only one player (Snider) dramatically outperforming this year, next year.  This doesn't seem so out of the realm of the possible.

As for OBP and SLG being offsets, I do not believe that must be true at all.  True, when Hill fell off, it may be because he started swinging for the fences too much.  Still, if he gets back on the right hitting track, I can only believe he will have had to solve both OBP and SLG.  Only if AA/JF decide to give a starting role to an OBP/SB machine (Mastroianni for DH, anyone?), will power need to be sacrificed for OBP.  i actually believe (but did not include in my estimates) that Escobar could be taught to grow both his OBP and his SLG beyond his 2009 performance)

Even better, Bautista is a classic case where his high OBP from walks ensures that eventually they have to pitch to him over the plate, giving him more chances to crank one.  As well, his plate discipline means that he does not swing often at a bad pitch early in the count, thus not eliminating his chance to get a great pitch later in the count.  If Hill, Lind and Wells could all learn to drink from that fountain, this team would really rock.


bpoz - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#224584) #
Earlweaverfan,

To me your +/- to the HR distribution seems OK. Still that is a lot of HRs. I would love to see T Snider get 30+ HR. I fully expect his OBP to improve and keep improving, besides talent I feel that he "rises to the big challenge".
I suppose anything can get worse, but do you think that Hill & Lind are going to have lower OBP in 2011.
Were our BBs and Ks acceptable in 2010? Nobody here or in the media has mentioned running as a part of our offense as far as I know. I guess it is productive in the NL, but too risky for the AL game. F Lewis our SB leader is a product of a NL team.
earlweaverfan - Tuesday, October 26 2010 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#224589) #
BPOZ: On the Jays website,in discussing his on-field philosophy, Farrell has laid out his goals for scoring more runs, as follows:

In order to satisfy component one of his objective (finish top 5 in the AL in runs), Farrell wants to improve the club's on-base percentage, as well as bring increased speed to the basepaths. The Jays ranked 12th (.312) and 14th (58), in OBP and stolen bases, respectively.


i am a lot more interested in raising OBP than I am in becoming a base stealing leader, but that is how he has put it.



DaveB - Wednesday, October 27 2010 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#224627) #
Speed on the basepaths is not just a matter of having faster legs in the lineup, its having a different attitude on the bases and smarter hitting at the plate. When your team has trouble getting on base, strikes out a lot while trying to hit home runs, and actually does hit a lot of HRs, you're inclined to be conservative on the bases. Witness Freddie Lewis. When he was followed by Hill and Lind in the batting order, he rarely tried to steal a base (eight attempts in 57 games). As soon as they were replaced by guys who made better contact (Gonzales, Escobar, Bautista)  he became more aggressive (15 attempts in his last 53 games). Getting more guys on base, making contact in defensive counts or against specific pitchers, will allow base-runners to be more aggressive, allow for more hit-and-runs to stay out of DP and runners to get an extra base on a hit. I think that's what Farrell means by being faster on the bases. He means guys running hard rather than trotting from station to station. Scott Rolen was an excellent base-runner in 2009 yet was no speed demon. It was all about being aggressive and him being alert. Escobar, Bautista, Wells, Snider, Hill can all be better base-runners without necessarily stealing bases, though I think Snider and Wells could both steal 20 simply by being aggressive and knowing they're going to get some protection from the batter. Maybe it's a NL style but I would just call it smart baseball.


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