Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
The Blue Jays open up their Canada Day weekend series against the AL Central Division leaders.

Series Schedule / Probable Starters

Thursday at 7:07 pm ET - Carlos Carrasco (3-2, 2.73) vs. R.A. Dickey (5-8, 4.23) 
Friday at 1:07 pm ET - Josh Tomlin (9-1, 3.32) vs. Marcus Stroman (6-4, 5.33)
Saturday at 1:07 pm ET - Trevor Bauer (6-2, 3.19) vs. Marco Estrada (5-3, 2.81)
Sunday at 1:07 pm ET - Corey Kluber (8-7, 3.51) vs. J.A. Happ (10-3, 3.70)

Cleveland has only won 12 in a row after sweeping the White Sox and Rays at home and the Tigers and Braves on the road. They are a half-dozen games up on Kansas City and 7-1/2 ahead of Detroit, and those two teams will be the Blue Jays next opponents on this 10 game homestand before the All-Star break.

Cleveland's 47-30 record is the second best mark in the American League. They haven't missed a beat with outfielder Michael Brantley on the shelf with rotator cuff and biceps issues and catcher Roberto Perez on the 60-day DL with a thumb injury. Brantley is hitting off a tie and Perez may be back sometime in July.

Toronto bounced back from a series loss to the White Sox by winning two of three in Colorado to split their six-game road trip. Their 43-37 record leaves them in a tie with Boston for second place in the American League East, 5½ games behind Baltimore.
Blue Jays vs. Cleveland - June 30-July 3 | 172 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
scottt - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#325567) #
It kinda looks like we traded Stroman for Tomlin.
That's a nice Jinx but I don't think Stroman's troubles are luck related.
He's got some adjustments to make.  Everybody is laying off the low sinker and he's not able to throw it at the knees consistently.

ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#325568) #
Hitting off a tee would be easier.
Chuck - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#325569) #
Shulman very diplomatically opposing B&P's argument that Happ is ASG-worthy because of da winz. Full points for professionalism and tolerating his broadcast mates.
SK in NJ - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#325570) #
I listened to Buck and Pat for a few minutes before tuning out and following on Gameday. I don't know how you guys do it every game. Shulman is great, though, as usual.
Parker - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#325571) #
On the bright side, we might only have to tolerate four more years of Buck & Pat.

Has any other broadcast team so universally reviled by the home fans ever been given that kind of contract?
Four Seamer - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#325573) #
They may be universally reviled among Bauxites, but what's the evidence they are held in such disregard by the Jays' (much) broader fanbase?
Super Bluto - Thursday, June 30 2016 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#325574) #
Fangraphs had a survey that put Buck and Tabby pretty low among MLB broadcasters. Other sites (well, Stoeten's old one) used to rip on them pretty hard too.

I don't mind them so much. Sure they don't have a grip on the analytics, but they have a lot of heart. Which is what counts for me anyway. That and strong hands.
Vulg - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#325576) #
I listened to Buck and Pat for a few minutes before tuning out and following on Gameday. I don't know how you guys do it every game. Shulman is great, though, as usual.

I can't do it. I love the team, I'll always follow the team, but the only time I fully enjoy the experience is in person.

It's not just the aversion to analytics. I hate to use that term; it's mostly an aversion to common sense at this point. I just don't find them remotely insightful or entertaining. The last thing you want to feel as a viewer is that the people commenting on the game are just making stuff up.

Unfortunately I can't really find refuge on the radio either. Jerry has better stories, but man does his voice sound like nails-on-chalkboard to me. I also find his account of the game just slow and, too often, inaccurate (have any others tried watching with the TV broadcast muted but the radio on?). He just paints a poor picture of what's going on.

I miss Tom. And yes, I agree Shulman makes the broadcast tolerable. As for tonight, the positive I'll take out of it is Cecil's clean inning and throwing 10 of his 11 pitches for strikes. Carrasco was virtually untouchable. The Jays struck out 17 times!
Dave Till - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:10 AM EDT (#325577) #
Recently (was it in last night's broadcast?), Buck and Pat offered the suggestion that the World Series be played with a DH if the AL wins the All-Star game, and without a DH if the NL wins. Um, guys... it's easy enough for the NL team to scare up a DH if needed.

Thanks to MLB.TV, I can tell you that there are worse broadcasters than Buck and Pat out there. But I agree with the consensus in the Fangraphs survey: Buck and Pat are two colour commentators in search of a play-by-play man. The broadcasts are roughly 3000% better when Shulman is calling the game.

I haven't been listening to the radio broadcast lately - to me, Jerry seemed somewhat grumpy last year. Did the 2015 stretch run give him some of his enthusiasm back? Broadcasting 22 years of non-winners would be a challenge for even the most sunny of optimists.
ComebyDeanChance - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:28 AM EDT (#325578) #
Other sites (well, Stoeten's old one) used to rip on them pretty hard too.

To me that seems pretty generic blogger stuff. In order to pull off a following, mostly I think among younger readers, it's pretty commonplace for bloggers to rip established media folk, be they broadcast or print, in order to convince readers that the 'cool' place to be is that very blog. Last year, when Jerry Howarth, somewhat courageously I thought, criticized the front office for playing a guy at shortstop who can't play the position, calling him a 'streetballer', the same blogger automatically ripped Howarth. The standard Fangraphs claim that $perWAR on the FA market justified playing a guy at short who couldn't play the position, was trotted out. The same claim made its way here as I recall. Jerry of course was exactly right and the team eventually added by subtraction.

I don't think Pat Tabler would be considered a top drawer baseball commentator, but top drawer baseball media personalities aren't usually going to be all that interested in doing Toronto Blue Jays broadcasts. At one point Toronto had Dan Shulman doing pbp with Buck doing colour, but Dan Shulman was offered a job with ESPN and left. The options for Toronto aren't David Cone leaving the Yankees and doing color as opposed to Pat. The options are more along the lines of Rob Foulds doing pbp, from which Buck is a big step up I believe. It may well be that Toronto can generate internally a replacement for Pat, but Joe, Jesse, Rance and Duane didn't fill the bill, at least in my opinion, and I don't see that internal replacement on the horizon.

And if you don't like Jerry Howarth, in my view you don't like radio broadcasting, because Jerry is one of the very best, as Toronto will find out when he retires.
scottt - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:40 AM EDT (#325579) #
I wouldn't say untouchable, but he got ahead by hitting his spots and then they were all fooled by that splitter-changeup. Very good pitching. All with that smirk on his face, like a kid stealing candy.

Here's hoping they win the weekend pair.

scottt - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:44 AM EDT (#325580) #
It's when they go on about stuff like Dickey being able to sense when the runner is going.
Sometimes I can't resist screaming at them.

Paul D - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:52 AM EDT (#325581) #
Pat and Buck were labelled bottom three broadcasters by fangraphs. They are bad.

As for Howarth, I somewhat cynically didn't see it as courageous, but rather, part of an orchestrated move by the team to run Reyes out of town. Maybe that's too cynical. The radio team ranked on the top half of teams in the fangraphs series.
Paul D - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 08:00 AM EDT (#325582) #
I'm sure that the Jays do have problems attracting broadcast talent - you can see that with the departures of Ashby and Morris. However , between the Blue Jays and Expos, they've had Shulman, Jim Hughson, Ken Singleton, Dave Van Horne, Tony Kubek, in my lifetime, who all range from good to excellent.

Although, it is notable how bad the Yankees radio team is/is perceived.
Super Bluto - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#325583) #
"To me that seems pretty generic blogger stuff."

Actually, CBCD, I was referring to the comments to the game threads, which frequently ripped on Pat and Buck in real time. To be sure, they were a younger demographic but the negative comments weren't too different than the ones you see on this site.

Attracting top talent to television in this market ought not be as hard as we think. When Jerry goes (and count me among those who think it should be sooner than later) it will be tough to replace him. I wish it weren't so, but radio just doesn't have the power it once did. (Look at how many people are involved on air with Rogers - from Davis to Mae, Zaun and Campbell, Shulman, Buck and Tabby, other guests like Brunt and Davidi) vs the three people we hear on radio, only two of whom even go to road. games.
dalimon5 - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#325584) #
I echo everybody's annoyance with the broadcast crew. I'm also sick of the Blue Jays Central theme song. So basic and too simple. I won't say I enjoy watching Greg Zaun, but I will say I enjoy his insight the most (picking your poison).

Many of my friends and colleagues who have started following the Jays like Buck and Pat very much. I think I may find them very annoying as commentators because 1) they broadcast to an audience that's watching baseball for the first time and 2) they are constantly recapping the game and plays from 3 innings earlier, for all those viewers just tuning in I guess.

I don't find Wilner much better (his voice and calls are better, but little to no insight), and Tom Siddal is like a vanilla cherry on top of a vanilla Sunday. And you know what? I think Vin Scully is overrated...much better than most, but sorry I don't need to know the bio for every batter coming up to the plate, told like a bedtime story. Really, I think the appeal with him, for me at least, is that he's a one man crew.

I also echo the statement that other MLB broadcast crews are worse. Hawk Harrelson, Ron Darling, Red Sox crew and Tampa Bay crew I like a lot. Rex Hudler and everyone else is terrible. During the CWS game with the radio broadcast on I was listening to commentary of "Tulowinski"

At the end of the day, I give Buck a pass because I remember the days of Rob Faulds and even worse, Jamie Campbell calling Jays games featuring Howie Clark, Dave Berg and Frank Mennechino in the top of the order "And whadd'ya think about that!!!" "Bye bye baseball". Campbell describes everything with 6-7 extra unnecessary words, it seems.

"Vernon takes second easily" -regular commentator

"Vernon Wells, seeing the pitcher isn't paying attention, quickly runs into second and steals the base" adds up after 3 hours. That was tough to watch.
Dave Till - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#325585) #

And if you don't like Jerry Howarth, in my view you don't like radio broadcasting, because Jerry is one of the very best, as Toronto will find out when he retires.

He was more enthusiastic about the Jays when he (and we) were younger - of course, they were a better team then, which helped. When I was listening to him regularly early in 2015, he spent a lot of his time providing editorial comments rather than broadcasting the game. He went on at great length on how starting the season with so many rookies was a bad idea, and why didn't they play Ryan Goins more? He was sounding more grumpy and curmudgeonly than he did back in the day.

I've been getting my Jays fix through MLB.TV lately - which means no Gregg Zaun, blessed be - so I haven't been catching any radio broadcasts lately. I hope that the fall of 2015 made Jerry more enthusiastic about baseball - it certainly made me more so.

One strike that Jerry has always had against him isn't his fault - he doesn't have a classic baseball baritone. Alan Ashby just had a natural voice for radio - Jerry's voice is higher-pitched and more nasal.

When Jerry retires, they'll probably just promote Wilner to the job. Or do something like bring back Sawkiw. And then your point will be well taken.

Dave Till - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#325588) #
Two final thoughts:

- Buck's "Get up, ball!" for home runs is really, really annoying. Please, somebody, make it stop.

- Gregg Zaun is evidence for transmigration of souls: he is slowly turning into Don Cherry. Perhaps it's the wardrobe. I feel sorry for baseball players from Sweden, if any ever happen to arrive.
electric carrot - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#325589) #
On the radio team:

I was not a big Ashby guy honestly -- although many here loved him I found him to be a bit of a scold -- and I felt talked down to.
I used to love Morris though -- it was fun picturing the grumpy harumphing, black sheep uncle at the dinner table mostly muttering to himself. He and Gerry made an awkward but amusing pair.
I'm fine with Joe Siddall and find he gives good analysis with less of the scolding tone that Ashby had. He's awful though at play-by-play when Gerry takes a break.

And as for Gerry. For me his biggest liability is not his play calling -- which I really think is one of the best in baseball. He really does quickly paint a picture of what's happening better than nearly anyone in radio.  Quick staccato sentences that reveal much. (Though he has lost a step in the last few years.) Also, while his radio voice is not classic baritone it is distinct and I think has a lot of personality and presence. He does have a performative, 50s ingratiating style which I have grown weary of -- but I think that's just not my cup of tea and it's also just getting old after all these years. 

I'm getting used to Wilner.  I find he's a little bit too in love with himself but he does have interesting observations.

But my fave was Tony Kubek back in the day -- that's when I used to watch the Jays on TV but nowadays I prefer just to listen.

Paul D - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#325591) #
Dalimon - are you saying that you like Hawk?
92-93 - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#325592) #
If you try to sync the radio broadcast with the TV feed it won't work, but I do enjoy listening to the game with the TV on in the background, occasionally checking in if it sounds like there's something worth seeing. When you listen often enough you can tell by the second "hooking" if a ball is going to be fair or foul.

I didn't have any love for Rance Mulliniks in the booth, but it was good when the colour commentators were on a rotation. I think Vernon Wells could be an excellent broadcaster.
ComebyDeanChance - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#325593) #
Pat and Buck were labelled bottom three broadcasters by fangraphs. They are bad.

The only people rating Toronto broadcasters poorly on fangraphs are the same people being told by bloggers how bad those broadcasters are. Other teams' fans couldn't pick Buck and Pat out of a lineup. That's a tiny fraction of the audience that values its opinion more highly perhaps than do others.
Dewey - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#325594) #
And if you don't like Jerry Howarth, in my view you don't like radio broadcasting, because Jerry is one of the very best, as Toronto will find out when he retires.

OMG!  All these years of tireless Jerry-bashing, and I have to read this.  I liked radio baseball in the late 1940’s, very much; and Jerry is approaching the worst I've ever endured.  He thinks it’s about him.  He’s gonna teach us the game -- and how to be good, god-fearing, family-loving persons to boot.  Talk about windy lore.  That’s “one of the very best”?  How sad, that he ranks so highly for you.

Agree about Kubek and Morris.  I liked Ashby, hardly a 'scold'.  Shulman's still the best today.
Paul D - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#325595) #
Cbdc, the fangraphs vote was, I suspect, by lots of people who have and check out the various broadcasters. Not a large sample, but also not just blue Jays fans. I think the overall rankings reflect this pretty well - most would agree that the fangraphs top broadcasts are great, while the bottom are bad.
Cracka - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#325596) #
I know it's unproductive to complain about the umpires, but Vic Carapazza is just awful. You might remember him from ALDS Game 2 (

The data may prove me wrong, but the 3rd strike to EE seems to be in spot that 99% of the time is a ball. He was right to be upset, Carapazza was wrong to toss him so quickly, and it's just too bad that EE bumped him and will probably be suspended for another game.

Mike Green - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#325597) #
Stroman is pitching well.  The slider is sharper and in the strike zone.  With a little better defence, he'd be sailing through 3 innings.
King Ryan - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#325598) #
I was so happy when I heard Schulman.

But then I heard Buck. Why. Why do they need three people?
dalimon5 - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#325599) #
Paul d, I am saying I like Hawk, but to be honest, I only watch him when Sale pitches and I just love how he doesn't say anything the whole game except "he gone" every time Sale strikes out a batter.

The roof is leaking above my seat right now.
King Ryan - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#325600) #
Well, this is a frustrating game.
Mike Green - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#325601) #
Welcome back, Marcus Stroman.  We've missed the real you.
Alex Obal - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#325602) #
Is there a story behind the disappearance and return of Stroman's breaking ball?
Mike Green - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#325603) #
Actually, that first pitch to Travis was a pretty rough call.  It's described as a 0% strike according to my pitch aggregator.  I didn't think that it was bad (maybe a 5%).
Mike Green - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#325604) #
The 3-1 to Smoak was a 2% call according to my aggregator.  I can't remember the last time I saw it called on the 3-1 in the bottom of the ninth in a tie game (although it might be occasionally called in the top...home-field advantage).  It's been pretty much impossible for Blue Jay hitters.  They are not sure what is a strike at all.
uglyone - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#325605) #
Fireable game from the ump.

really one sidingly pathetic.

we're gonna need a HR to win it because no way we string a few hits together with these kinds of calls against us.
uglyone - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#325606) #
"Is there a story behind the disappearance and return of Stroman's breaking ball?"

in the end I think the story will be that the cutter he fell in love with last year is not actually a good pitch.

don't thing there were many cutters today, nor many changeups, his 2nd worst pitch.
CeeBee - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#325607) #
This ump makes Laz Diaz look like a good ump
Super Bluto - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#325608) #
If this thing goes much longer we may see Thole for the 3rd in 4 tomorrow.
ComebyDeanChance - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#325609) #
Hale has managed this game to a tee in the way that I think Gibbons would have, right down to the questionable decision to pinch run Lake which was reminiscent of Gibbons taking Smoak out to pinch run Paredes.
Spifficus - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#325610) #
Are we now in the win-win territory of seeing either a win or Goins pitch?
Parker - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#325611) #
I love Dan Schulman. He's a great broadcaster. I will never say otherwise.

While we're watching Jays games together, the old lady repeatedly remarks that I say exactly the same thing as Martinez, only three seconds earlier. I think she's saying that as a compliment, but I'm actually offended by it. I'm not a baseball professional. Being regarded by a casual fan as being slightly quicker than a busher like Martinez is offensive to me. This clown managed to somehow "earn" a five-year contract as a "professional" broadcaster, which I have no illusions about myself.

But he does.
Parker - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#325612) #
And so does Rogers.

That's what really bothers me.
Parker - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#325613) #
Even allowing for the obvious Canadian issue, it makes me really sad that this is the best that the Blue Jays can do. And that they're not making any serious effort to improve.

It's not like they're the fourth-biggest market in baseball, or something, though.
uglyone - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#325614) #
finally a position where Goins' bat plays.
Mike Green - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#325615) #
Ryan Goins deserves a W.
uglyone - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#325616) #
tabler helpfully points out that each team has only scored in 1 inning today.
uglyone - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#325617) #
sportsnet is fuming that the jays have totally ruined their nhl free agent day.
BlueJayWay - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#325618) #
One run loss.
Spifficus - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#325619) #
Would you rather they lost by 2?
King Ryan - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#325620) #
I don't even know what to say about that game.
scottt - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#325621) #
Donaldson almost tied it.

Technically Encarnation already served an extra game suspension.

grjas - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#325622) #
28 innings, 10 opposing pitchers and our offence scores 2 runs?
greenfrog - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#325623) #
It's frustrating to be sure, but the team was without Bautista for those 28 innings, and without Encarnacion for most of today's game. And they were facing the best pitching staff in the league (and it sounds as if the umpiring was pretty bad today).

The Jays might not be a 102-win team, but they're still right in the WC race. Have a short memory, turn the page and go get 'em tomorrow. The team had a number of similarly frustrating losses in the first 100 games last year. It's baseball.
Spifficus - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#325624) #
It was frustrating for them to lose, sure, but there was a lot of positives in the game, a lot of excitement, and a lot of crazy. It was quite entertaining, no matter what. Heck, we were served a double dose of baseball AND an umpshow, all in one. That's maximising your entertainment dollar!
scottt - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#325625) #
I don't know the ump's name--and I'd like to keep it that way--but he makes a very strong argument for automated pitch calling.
scottt - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#325626) #
I don't know about the best pitching staff. They actually pitched very poorly today. It's just that the ump was calling strikes on pitches 6 inches outside and up to a foot high. I don't care what Buck and Pat say, nobody can cover that much of the plate. Stroman pitched better today, but I take it with a grain of salt. With today's strike zone, any pro pitcher was nearly unhittable and even middle infielders looked very good.
Parker - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#325627) #
Vic Carapazza. Where do they get these clowns? How is it that MLB keeps allowing amateurs like this decide the outcome of baseball games, rather than letting the players do it?

I admit that I enjoy railing against umpires as much as the next guy, but to me, this game was a disgrace, and the MLB Umpires' Union should be ashamed of themselves. Carapazza doesn't appear to be qualified to umpire a beer league softball game - assuming he was even sober for this contest.

I don't think I've ever seen a less professional display. How often does a crew chief have to reproach his home plate umpire that way in MLB?

After this disgraceful display, I don't see how I could complain about Angel Hernandez or Fat Joe West ever again. Today's game set the bar so much lower.
King Ryan - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#325628) #
Worse than the strike zone, in my opinion, was his jawing at Martin as Martin was walking back to the dugout, and then tossing him. Umpires have become drunk with power and it's embarrassing. Martin was walking back to the dugout; leave him alone. There's no excuse for it.
scottt - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#325629) #
EE probably got a suspension. Shultz probably re-injured his hip. The bullpen is drained and the next day off is far away. Any positive I'm missing?
Spifficus - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#325630) #
Only all of them. Stroman's performance (he didn't benefit from The Carapazza when you look at Brooks Baseball). The bullpen's performance as a whole. Goins touching 90 (well, he and Barney go in the Crazy bucket, really). They get to face a call-up or someone on short rest tomorrow. Tulo went 3 for 6 (+2 BBs) and Barney went 3 for 8. There were a lot of good defensive plays... Also, it sounds like cramping for Schultz, not a reinjury. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go on the DL, anyway, though, since he wouldn't be able to pitch for at least 2 days.
Four Seamer - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#325631) #
One other positive is that Carapazza missed the tee time he was so obviously rushing to make.
Mike Green - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#325632) #
Caparazza's dinner arrived stone cold.

He has also been assigned the grumpiest security guard Canada has to offer for the remainder of his stay. Just standing on guard for thee.
Hodgie - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#325633) #
"Hale has managed this game to a tee in the way that I think Gibbons would have, right down to the questionable decision to pinch run Lake which was reminiscent of Gibbons taking Smoak out to pinch run Paredes."

That's a relief, I was concerned people wouldn't have an opportunity to take a shot at Gibbons after being ejected so early. Silly me.

pubster - Friday, July 01 2016 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#325634) #
I think a big positive to take away from this is that the Jay's got the genius that put this cleveland team together.

Jay's and Indians got some of the best starting pitching in the AL.

With Shapiro acquiring 3/5 of the current rotation (Estrada, happ, dickey =) maybe Shapiro just knows how to put together a pitching staff.
King Ryan - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 12:49 AM EDT (#325635) #
One other positive is that Carapazza missed the tee time he was so obviously rushing to make.

Of all things this game painfully demonstrated, calling more strikes extends the game it doesn't shorten it.

That expression has always been backwards.
krose - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 12:56 AM EDT (#325636) #
LaBlanc had a great start against Baltimore tonight. 3 hits, 1 BB, 5 SO, and 2 ER. Mmmmm! Those cagey soft tossers. Do the Jays have enough respect for their approach?
scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:43 AM EDT (#325637) #
You often see teams getting a home advantage on balls and strike. It's really frustrating to see a home team get abused like this before a sold out crowd during their national holiday.

Carrera tried to get tossed after a third strike called above his shoulders. The ump wouldn't bite, but it would have been funny to see a pitcher play first base.

Saunders just stared at his feet and watched called strike after called strike outside the plate. Couldn't he just hug the plate and swing at those or get hit and get on base? He was the least impressive Blue Jay in that game.

scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:53 AM EDT (#325638) #
They get to face a call-up or someone on short rest tomorrow.

I don't think it matters. Bauer was very mediocre. I don't think he threw a breaking ball for a strike. A AAA call up is a huge plus for Cleveland.

Anybody still wants to talk about Martin's superior framing skills? There's no such thing. It's all umpire bias.
Dave Till - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:56 AM EDT (#325639) #

I was at the game, though I had to leave after the 16th inning - I had dinner plans for 7 pm, which ordinarily wouldn't be a problem for a 1:05 start.

Brooks Baseball clearly shows that Carapazza had a very bad day yesterday calling Josh Tomlin's pitches: nine pitches outside the strike zone were called strikes. The one that got Edwin ejected was several inches outside.

Both Encarnacion and Martin were ejected while walking away from Carapazzo. Edwin's ejection was probably due to the ump's still stewing over Donaldson's complaints about his called third strike (which was out of the strike zone too). Horrible umpiring.

It's a very good thing that they were able to restrain Martin from doing whatever it was he wanted to do to Carapazzo - I don't want to think of how long the suspension would have been.

The Josh Thole Second RBI Watch is still on - Josh nearly won the game with a fly ball to the warning track. Sigh.

The one thing we learned from the game yesterday: Ryan Goins is a better emergency pitcher than Darwin Barney. Where is Cliff Pennington when you need him?

scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:57 AM EDT (#325640) #
Ryan Goins deserves a W.

Goins really need to go to AAA.  Not having another good power bat to replace EE or even another bullpen arm who could have gone 2+ innings probably cost the game. There's no need for a 4th middle infielder who can't hit.
scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 07:42 AM EDT (#325641) #
My favourite moment of the day was Buck and Pat explaining that Stroman doesn't need a 4th pitch and should just throw fastball/slider/changeup 70/25/5/ just before going to Tomlin's chart which was fastball/cutter/curveball/changeup 40/38/12/8.

Stroman has actually 6 pitches and needs to mix things up since he can only use the bottom half of the plate. For some reason, he often misses low on the first 2 pitches and nobody chases those.

Cracka - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#325642) #
Both Morales and Tepera pitched last night in Buffalo, but Girodo, Loup, and Hutch are all rested.

This might be a good time to get Hutchison up - we need someone in the pen who can go multiple innings and he last pitched on Tuesday (so 3 days rest). I don't think he's a long term solution and I wouldn't advocate to push him to the bullpen permanently, but I think he's by far the best choice for this situation. Schultz can be demoted or DL'ed to make room.

ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#325643) #
Any positive I'm missing?

Well, we're not playing the East. so the team is just tearing through the AL Central like General Sherman's March to the Sea. They are 3-1 against the Twins, and so far are 2-9 against those teams in the Central not named the Twins. They've not won a series against any other Central team. Actually, Toronto is 10-3 against the Twins and the depleted version of the Yankees they played, and 33-39 otherwise. I think this 11 game homestand against the AL Central will be helpful in seeing how they really stack up.
ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#325644) #
I was concerned people wouldn't have an opportunity to take a shot at Gibbons after being ejected so early. Silly me.,br>
Yes, poor Gibby has it tough. When he's criticized for not taking Shaun Marcum out of no-hitter, or not pinch-hitting the worthless Randy Ruiz, wake me up.
ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#325645) #
The bullpen's performance as a whole. Goins touching 90 (well, he and Barney go in the Crazy bucket, really).

My favourite move was taking Goins out after 1 to go to Barney, obviously so Goins will be available to pitch again today. Clearly Barney was going long if the game went 20 or more.

Spifficus - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#325646) #
I can't tell if you're trying to be cute with the Goins comment, or if you really think a position player, who has never pitched before, should have sat between innings, had his arm cool down, then gotten back up to try to pitch another inning. It's no big thing for relievers (injury-wise, not necessarily performance-wise), who train these muscle groups specifically for the task and usually get some experience of a few extended outings along the way, but a position player has neither of these luxuries.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#325647) #
looking at pitch f/x looks like the big difference for stro was that he didn't throw even one changeup (his worst pitch) and instead doubled the usage of his slider (his best pitch).....which kinda makes nice obvious sense.
snider - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#325648) #
Any reason the Jays didn't go to Estrada?
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#325649) #
estrada's already been having back issues. i'm guessing they don't want to push it.

also unfortunate that it was sanchez' throwday, as they don't want to push him either.

would have been helpful if dickey or happ were either today's starter or on their throwday
Mike Green - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#325650) #
Hutch and Loup apparently on way today. Good.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#325651) #
Hutch to the pen? finally.

He might not even be an upgrade but it's been pretty weird that it's taken them this long to give him a shot.

and he might even be good there.

is goins still on the team?
Cracka - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#325652) #
I think the Jays made the right decision not using Estrada, health-wise and strategy-wise. We're in a much better spot than the Indians today with our normal starter going. The Indians might have to start Corey Kluber on short rest (3 days), apparently they are not sure if they can get someone from the minors to Toronto in time. The two options appear to be LH Ross Detwiler (AAA, team played in Rhode Island yesterday) and LH Shawn Morimando (AA, team played in Erie, OH yesterday... a few hours drive away). 23 y/o Morimando is on the 40-man roster but has never appeared above AA ball.
snider - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#325653) #
I can see the Estrada decision health wise but from a strategy perspective I think we had less of a chance to win one game of the next two by going with position players as pitchers. The Indians will at least have a pitcher throwing today.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#325654) #
would an unready Estrada have done better than goins/barney did?

maybe, maybe not.
greenfrog - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#325655) #
I agree with the decision not to risk the health of Estrada or Sanchez to possibly gain a win in a July game. Just not worth it.
Paul D - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#325656) #
On an unrelated note, I was listening to a fantasy baseball podcast, and they were trying to figure out a team for Joe Mauer. They suggested Toronto. I don't know if someone who makes as much as Mauer is the answer, but I do think that Toronto should be looking for a first baseman (or OF if Bautista agrees to play first). The positive about Mauer is that I can't imagine he'd cost much in terms of prospects, but that's because he's paid a ton and doesn't hit like a 1b.

I wonder what it would take to get Freedie Freeman.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#325657) #
may well be a phantom DL stint but Goins is on the 15 day with forearm tightness.
eudaimon - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#325658) #
If I were manager I would have thrown Dickey out there instead of Goins / Barney. He pitched yesterday, but I figure as a knuckleballer he'd be okay for a couple. Still, that might also have been a terrible idea. I agree that putting Estrada or whoever in would have been unwise, as we need those guys from the stretch run.

Is Goins really the better emergency pitcher? Granted, he did induce that double play ball, but he still gave up two hits and a walk. Barney actually struck a guy out, and just gave up the one hit - a home run. His HR/FB ratio will stabilize in time...

That being said I couldn't watch the game because I was moving.

Spifficus - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#325659) #
He may be a knuckleballer, but he's 41 and throws almost as hard as Barney. Seriously, though, he has a higher effort delivery than the Wakefield/Hough/Candiotti variety of knuckleballers. If he had pitched Wednesday instead, sure, different story, but I suspect he still needs at least a day to recover enough.
92-93 - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#325660) #
Spifficus, are you really surprised CBDC would find a way to criticize Gibbons in a game he wasn't even managing? He's a tiny fraction of the audience that values his opinion more highly than do others. When the Jays removed their DH from the game to get Barney on the mound (as opposed to just putting Goins at 2B and leaving Travis at DH) it was blatantly obvious that there was something real going on with Goins.
85bluejay - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#325661) #
Why did't the Jays use Dickey, then call up Hutch to start tomorrow? - a win is a win.
Mike Green - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#325662) #
I agree with the managerial handling of the pitching staff yesterday.

Today is the perfect day for an eight man staff- after a 19 inning game in the middle of 16 games without a day off.
jerjapan - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#325663) #
Bo Schultz was the hero for me yesterday, and he had to know he was gonna get demoted afterwards.  I hope his hip is okay, he was really hobbling. 

Wish they'd made the call for Dickey - gotta assume that Goins injury is a result of pitching.

I haven't thought about Randy Ruiz but I remember him as a great story - 115 great ABs for us at the end of 2009, sold him overseas during 2010 - his brief success was a happy moment in some lousy seasons. 

John Lott has an interesting story on Franklin Morales - it really seems like he's pissed the org off.

uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#325664) #
zeke is so dumb sometimes.
Spifficus - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#325665) #
He definitely has a weakness on judging what his range won't let him get to, and seems to get burned for needless extra bases a lot.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#325666) #
I mean he has to know that a) he's not making that play and b) not making it costs them a run. just has to.
92-93 - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#325667) #
As this game moves along, the likelihood of Drew Hutchison joining the rotation to give Estrada some rest seems to be rising. Would be nice to get 2-3 innings out of him today if that's the case.
Mike Green - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#325668) #
Devon Travis is out of sync.  He's taken more bad swings over the past two games than he normally does in two weeks. 
Magpie - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#325669) #
Why did't the Jays use Dickey, then call up Hutch to start tomorrow?

Seriously? Dickey threw 7 innings the night before. Fifteen hours rest?
scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#325670) #
More likely Hutchison in only pitching a side (20 pitches) today.

I laughed when I heard Goins is on the phantom DL.
I get forearm tightness when I pitch BP to little leaguers.
That's not an injury.

scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#325671) #
Cabrera or Travis leading is fine, but I prefer Donaldson/Encarnation/Saunders going 2,3,4.
Magpie - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#325672) #
[Dickey] has a higher effort delivery than the Wakefield/Hough/Candiotti variety of knuckleballers.

And after a long trek through their Game Logs, I can tell you that none of those guys ever pitched in relief the day after they had made a start. Not even once. Phil Niekro never did it either.
scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#325673) #
Schultz said it's a cramp but that's coming from the guy who pitched a whole month with an injured hip last year.
Dave Till - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#325674) #
After the Indians' go-ahead run in the 7th, Buck and Pat began babbling about their clutchiness and etcetera, not pointing out that the ball was a seven-hop grounder that just found the hole between Tulo and Travis up the middle. Gaah.

The ground ball hit did illustrate that pitcher fielding ability is a thing. Hutch's delivery doesn't allow him to be ready to field a ball hit to him, so he had no chance on that grounder. You can be a perfectly good pitcher without being a good fielder - Roy Halladay couldn't field his position - but being able to snag balls up the middle can't hurt.
scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#325675) #
Hutch finally pitched an inning of relief. Now what?
snider - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#325676) #
Hutchinson looked like he was throwing bp.
Four Seamer - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#325677) #
Man, do I hate these ticky tack reviews. They should give Davis third to dissuade teams from engaging in this pointlessness.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#325678) #
screwed out of a series win against the hottest team in baseball by one crap ump.

ah well.

time for some revenge on the royals.
BlueJayWay - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#325679) #
Ugly, it's only Saturday....
grjas - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#325680) #
Good to see Tulo continuing to contribute. If he, Martin and Cecil are over their early funks, they'll start a nice little roll again.
jerjapan - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#325681) #
I officially don't want to see Biagini in meaningful innings until he can show some consistency.  Hide him on the DL, pitch him in blowouts if you are determined to keep him, but not first  man out in a close game against a legit rival. 

scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#325682) #
Is it Biagini's fault if Martin can't catch his curve?

Gibbons brings him out because he's afraid to bring Storen.

Patience, Cecil might be back in shape and Grilli is looking good in the setup.
Loup should be fine if he doesn't see right handed batters.

Cleveland has the second best bullpen in the league and the Jays roughed them up.
Which again goes to show that sometimes a good bullpen just means a well rested bullpen working behind a good rotation.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hutch takes a start to rest Estrada.
85bluejay - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#325683) #
Sorry, I haven't been paying much attention, I taught Dickey last pitched Tuesday not Thursday.
scottt - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#325684) #
Barney keeps hitting too.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#325685) #
with the ASG coming up Estrada can be skipped just one start and get 2.5 weeks off. That's what I would do.

Starting tommorrow:


That's 16 days rest with only one time thru the rotation missed.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#325686) #
"Ugly, it's only Saturday...."

heh. oops.
uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#325687) #
"Good to see Tulo continuing to contribute. If he, Martin and Cecil are over their early funks, they'll start a nice little roll again."

Tulo last 111pa: .949ops, 150wrc+
Russ last 122pa: .859ops, 130wrc+
jerjapan - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#325689) #
Scottt, just check out Biagini's last 11 appearances - his WHIP is over 2.5.  This is not due to Martin. 

I want Danny Barnes in place of Biagini.  He's allowed 4 ER all year - 41 IPs, and has 46 Ks vs. 4 bbs.    

uglyone - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#325690) #
I wouldn't kick Biagini out yet but I do agree he should be bumped down to the bottom of the pen.

I have plenty of faith in Cecil, and am praying that grilli is for real. If he is, the back of the pen is solid.

Then chavez, biagini, storen, loup, morales, hutch should be plenty of middle relief, I think /hope.
SK in NJ - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#325691) #
I really don't think Hutchison will make a good reliever. He seems like a mid-bottom rotation innings eater type, not a shut down reliever, especially when FB command is not always there for him. If Estrada needs to miss time, then put Hutch in the rotation, but if they want to improve the pen, then he's not the guy, IMO.

Grilli now has 21 K's in 11.2 innings since the trade. I'll take it.
dan gordon - Saturday, July 02 2016 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#325696) #
Yah, Barnes' numbers are really eye-popping. He had another great outing on Friday. Pitched 2 innings, and gave up just 1 hit, no walks and struck out 4. Since moving up to AAA, he's allowed just 1 baserunner in 5 2/3 IP with 6 K's. I'd like to see him get a shot in Toronto, but they'd have to make room on the 40-man roster.
Magpie - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 12:18 AM EDT (#325697) #
I wouldn't think Biagini's going anywhere at this point, except to Last Man in the pen. They can't send him down without losing him.
jerjapan - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 04:58 AM EDT (#325698) #
They can't send him down without losing him.

Exactly the problem with a rule v guy.  The team has committed themselves to one fewer roster spot for the sake of the 41st best player in the Giants org - not exactly a hot spot for prospect development. 

We've certainly hit on some winners historically, but rule v picks and contenders don't exactly mix in my mind.  
jerjapan - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:07 AM EDT (#325699) #
Fascinating info on AL LF and Michael Saunders particularly by former Mariner stats-guru turned Fangraphs contributor Tony Blengino:

It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that Michael Saunders was “my guy” when I worked for the Mariners. Yes, he was drafted by Bill Bavasi’s regime, but this was a player and a human being whom I recognized as a productive future big leaguer from Day One. This sentiment was far from universally shared in our front office. I was told that I was “on an island” with Saunders, but I liked my island. I fought like a cat to keep him out of multiple trades, and he showed signs of excellence throughout his Mariner career.

It took until this season for him to ultimately reach his potential. It’s been basically a best-case scenario for Saunders, however. Some of his homers have been of the “just-enough” variety; his Unadjusted Fly Ball Contact Score is an off-the-charts 224, while adjusted for context, that mark plunges to 118. His fly-ball rate is quite high, with little upside, and his liner rate is ripe for a bit of negative regression. His Adjusted Production figure of 121 better represents his true-talent level than does his loftier wRC+, but any way you slice it, Saunders has emerged as a very productive corner outfielder.
scottt - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#325702) #
Yeah, I think Saunders is having a career year and will likely fall back in the future.

scottt - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#325703) #
Barnes has only pitched in 3 games, although for 5.2 innings. That 0.18 WHIP is nice.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#325704) #
Saunders is having a similar year as he did his last semi healthy season.
Spifficus - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#325705) #
Especially when you consider that his opposite field power plays better in the AL East than it does in Seattle. Of course, the Ks are also up, and that could take a toll on his average. I wouldn't be surprised either way - regression to merely above-average, or a new norm.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#325706) #
well his babip is still too high and will continue to tumble and bring down his current 140wrc+ but blengino's numbers seem about right to me - there's a decent chance that he's a legit ~120wrc+ player now.
scottt - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#325707) #
There's no problem with the Rule V guy. They've been wasting a 25 roster spot on Goins and Biagini is not the worse pitcher on the staff. He's only got 2 losses.  He's got an ERA+ of 143 and his FIP is at 2.73. Only Chavez--who's been worse--and Osuna are ahead of him in innings pitched.

Parker - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#325708) #
I'm with scottt regarding Biagini. As long as he's not the worst pitcher in the bullpen, he's not a waste of a roster spot. So far he hasn't even been close to the worst.
China fan - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#325709) #
"....So far he hasn't even been close to the worst...."

But that's not much of a defense of Biagini -- it really speaks to the overall poor quality of the Jays bullpen this season.  In a bad bunch, he's been not quite the worst. 

Still, I agree with those who are optimistic about the bullpen, now that Cecil seems to be returning to form, and with Grilli showing that he can handle high-leverage situations.  The key to the bullpen is having 3 reliable high-leverage pitchers at the back end.  Gibbons can probably juggle the other relievers for most situations, including Biagini in a low-leverage or mop-up role.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#325710) #
Today ought to be a Drew Storen day. Bring him on with a couple of RHHs due up and let him face a LH pinch-hitter and set things up for Cecil later on.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#325711) #
I like Biagini but no question he's run into trouble the last month or so. Not enough to get the boot yet, but another few weeks without improvement and his job might be in danger.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#325712) #
And maybe it's not worth mentioning....but we have to note that Storen is in serious danger of being DFA'd.

He's been beyond bad. Very close to unrosterably bad.

I mean we're talking Cordero/Rauch/Lincoln/Rogers bad here.
Parker - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#325713) #
But that's not much of a defense of Biagini -- it really speaks to the overall poor quality of the Jays bullpen this season. In a bad bunch, he's been not quite the worst.

You're absolutely right, CF. I wasn't trying to defend Biagini the quality pitcher, I was trying to defend Biagini the Rule V pick and his resulting occupation of a roster spot. I agree 100% that the bullpen has been a net disappointment - but Biagini isn't the problem, at least not yet. The problem is that the bar has been set pretty low this year, and that IS a problem. That's obviously on the front office, but Shapiro and Atkins look like geniuses if Biagini turns into something. If he doesn't, they only look bad if Biagini is the worst pitcher on the team and no successful attempts are made to upgrade his roster spot. The jury is definitely still out on this one.
Chuck - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#325714) #
Biagini has yet to allow a homerun. Whether that's a skill or a sign that his ERA might start taking more of a thumping, I don't know. I do agree that he won't be the first reliever to be jettisoned. Like uglyone, I don't see Storen lasting the season, even without strong competition for his job.
SK in NJ - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#325716) #
From 2013-15 in the minors, Biagini gave up a combined 15 home runs in 355 innings (0.38 HR/9). That is an absurdly low amount of home runs over a pretty decent sample size. Is it a skill? I won't say that definitively, but I'd lean towards yes based on what I've seen so far. He's not giving up hard contact, he's getting GB's at a high rate, and he's not giving up a ton of LD or FB either (for comparison's sake, Osuna has a higher LD% than Biagini does). The .347 BABIP is on the high side as well.

The potential is there. He's solid now but could get better. There is no reason to lose Biagini for nothing. It should not even be a consideration. He's been performing reasonably well, and can be hidden as many Rule 5 picks are in lower leverage spots.

As mentioned, Storen is a far more sensible DFA candidate. Without the FB velocity, he's throwing BP out there. It's late enough in the year to where they've given him more than enough rope. Maybe a team desperate for pen help would take his salary in July, but outside of clinging to that hope, he's the first guy I'd remove out of the pen right now.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#325717) #
I think making Bautista the DH when he gets back and relegating Smoak to the bench is closer to being a necessity than a preference.
Thomas - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#325718) #
I don't know what's behind the idea that we should be considering returning Biagini to San Francisco right now or if he has a couple of more poor outings. Over his first 21 innings this year, Biagini allowed two earned runs and struck out 17.

He was hit hard in June, particularly in a couple of outings, but that's one third of his season to date. He had been effective in both short and long stints prior to that.

Regardless of the shape of the Jays bullpen this year, Biagini has been part of the solution, rather than the problem. Gibbons' faith in him seems to waiver, but every team needs 6th and 7th relievers (and the Jays have decided they need an 8th more often than not) and Biagini has shown he can perform that role effectively.
ComebyDeanChance - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#325720) #
First time ever sighting of a Blue Jays cap in the Marais. In the takeout line at L'As du Falafel.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#325722) #
So much for these awesome indians and their awesome pitching.

One crap ump away from crushing them.
grjas - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#325723) #
Every time I question the offence, they start crushing the ball. So I'll keep it up!

I also think it's time for all of us to show some respect for Happ. Sure W-L records are not the be-all end-all, but a 11-3 record is a heck of a lot more than luck.
scottt - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#325725) #
Where's the Marais?
Cracka - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#325726) #
I think the turning point in this series was the Indians decision to use Bauer in extra innings - and the Jays decision not to disrupt their rotation, even if it meant using Goins/Barney. Yes we lost and Goins got hurt, but we got excellent outings from Estrada & Happ, while the Indians had a bullpen day Saturday and then no one available today. In this series, we scored 2 runs in the first 28 innings, and then 26 runs in next 18 innings.
SK in NJ - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#325727) #
Interesting Tweets from Chris Cotillo. May or may not mean anything but interesting nonetheless.

Chris Cotillo @ChrisCotillo
Blue Jays have been scouting Astros' system, per @nickcafardo. One prospect they've looked at, per source: Francis Martes.

Chris Cotillo ‏@ChrisCotillo
Unclear how Jays and Astros would match up on a deal at this point, though @nickcafardo says something is likely in the works.

Martes is a top prospect so it would have to be a pretty serious deal, if true. Could end up meaning nothing of course.
scottt - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#325728) #
Buck and Pat kept mentioning how Happ was coming off a bad outing. In Coors!

Kluber is a terrible name for a pitcher.
He kept throwing offspeed stuff off the plate. On Canada Day, he would have been a strike out ace.
Today with a normal strike zone (minus the odd bad call here and there) he was abysmal.

I'm hopeful for the ALCS reunion series.
I think it's a given Estrada is missing a start. He had to put on a brace after the first inning.

Hutch might have to move to the pen, but not for several years.
He would likely need some time to adjust to the conversion.

Smoak is good at walking and crushing bad pitches. I also think Bautista should steal his spot on return.
I'm not sure he will, though. A toe injury is a funny thing. If he can run, he should be able to play the outfield.

Magpie - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#325729) #
Shhhh... Yes. I hear the lamentations of their women.
PeterG - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#325730) #

That story is also being reported in Boston Globe where it adds that it appears something is happening.
uglyone - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#325731) #
Russell Martin Temper Tantrum = 2016 Turning Point
Chuck - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#325732) #
I think it's a given Estrada is missing a start.

I was at the Estrada game so don't know if the TV broadcast showed his slow walk to the dugout at the end of every inning. It was clear that he was hanging on by a thread, physically. My friend, old like me, said two words: Tim Conway. That very old reference will mean something to only a small number of people at this site.

It'll be a minor miracle if Estrada is able to take the ball for his next turn.

Mike Green - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#325733) #
Junior Lake has surprised me with pretty good plate discipline so far.  There was no suggestion in his record that he was developing this important skill, but youneverknow. Maybe he and fellow ex-Cub Darwin Barney shared something.

Happ gave the Jays exactly what they needed- a rest for the bullpen.  He was facing Kluber and for the first four innings, he completely shut down the Indians with a 3-0 lead.  It wasn't quite as easy as the final score would suggest.  I am hoping that they will DL Estrada and take full advantage of the All-Star break. 

James W - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#325734) #
I am hoping that they will DL Estrada and take full advantage of the All-Star break.

It's likely they will, but I'm pretty certain they'll wait until Thursday to make a decision: If Estrada heals, then he'll start. If not, they'll DL him and probably just have Hutchison start. It's not optimal, in that if they are going to put him on the DL, they could have someone up already, but the situation isn't urgent.
jerjapan - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#325735) #
I don't know what's behind the idea that we should be considering returning Biagini to San Francisco right now

Thomas, it's probably coming from me since I keep posting it ... but consider me unimpressed by either number you quote.  Biagini, IMO, continues to not strike enough guys out to defy his hittabilitiy ... his ERA seems irrelevant.  28 baserunners in his last 15 appearances - 13 1/3 IP.  He's pitched in 29 games this year - this is no longer a small sample size.

Not saying he has to go back to San Fran ... phantom DL?  no more important innings?  Personally, I'd rather see a Storen DFA, as others have suggested.  Stubbornly holding on to a marginal asset might cost the team a win or two, which might cost the team a playoff spot. 

We are early in the Shapiro era ... do they acknowledge mistakes and walk away? Do they hold on too long to a Biagini / Storen?  Am I wrong about their utility?
Mike D - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#325737) #
Just goes to show you the limitations of Pythag: the Jays passed the Red Sox in run differential today, gaining 33 net runs over yesterday and today alone. And Boston won comfortably today!
Chuck - Sunday, July 03 2016 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#325738) #
Do they hold on too long to a Biagini / Storen?

Are these questions not moot given that there is no one on hand to take their places (other than the continuous churn of Tepera, Schultz, Girodo, etc.)?

Magpie - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 12:24 AM EDT (#325741) #
My inclination is to cut Biagini a bit of slack for the moment. He struggled badly in June, no question, but he had also been placed in a situation he was totally unprepared for. He's never pitched out of the bullpen in his life. The splits are too small for even I to take all that seriously, but in his 14 appearances with 0 or 1 days rest, his ERA is 4.50; in his 15 appearances with at least 2 days rest, his ERA is 1.69 (Small Sample Size Alert!)

He's supposed to be a Draft and Stash, spending the year as the seventh man in the pen. The failures of everyone in the pen not named Osuna forced him into a role he was neither qualified nor prepared nor equipped for. He's supposed to be the junkman, he's supposed to be the last man you call on.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 12:35 AM EDT (#325742) #
With the Bautista injury situation, and Carrera hitting well enough to justify at least a lion's share of the workload in right, I wonder if Shapiro/Atkins look for bullpen help by flipping Smoak to a team looking for a bat. Maybe Houston is that.

I oppose trading Bautista, unless somehow they can trade him to a non contender (preferably in the NL) for the rest of the season, and they get a frontline starter in return. Can you imagine the Jays facing a jilted, angry Bautista late in the season, or worse, in the playoffs?

Keep Sanchez in the rotation, promote Morales, and try like hell to find another stopper for the back end, and ride that 2nd half weak schedule.
Thomas - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#325743) #
JerJapan, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your opinion about what to do with Biagini, but I read your comment about rule V players and contenders not mixing and your other comment about wanting to see Barnes in Biagini's place as a clear suggestion we should return him. I didn't think there's any way to read it otherwise. Barnes can't replace Biagini unless the latter goes to the minors, which means he has to be returned to San Francisco.

I'm not going to suggest playing fast and loose with the rules by using a phantom DL stint to address the matter. Furthermore, a phantom DL stint doesn't "solve" the problem because Biagini will have to come off the DL and then the club will have the same dilemma and the Jays certainly can't put Biagini on the DL for three months until the end of the year for a phantom injury.

As for your choice of his stats over his last 13.1 innings, you then throw in the fact he's pitched in 29 games and say that "this isn't a small sample size." However, you don't mention the fact that in the first 14 of those 29 games, he pitched 16.2 innings, allowed 18 base runners, 1 earned run and no home runs. For half of his season he's been very effective, often over multiple innings.

i don't advocate Biagini being our setup man, I just said he's fine for a 6th/7th/8th arm out of the pen and I'd rather see him out there than Tepera. I like the velocity Schultz has shown since his return, but he's still having issues with his control.

And I'm not sure what Storen has to do with Biagini. They are different players and I'd evaluate the choice as to whether to keep each one independently of the other.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 01:13 AM EDT (#325744) #
And I forgot to add, leave Bautista to play 1st with EE getting the odd start.

A name to watch out for could be Joe Smith of the Angels (who was an elite reliever from 11-13 with Shapiro/Atkins in Cleveland). He's a free agent after this year, and while not as dominant as a few years ago,he still dominates right handers and could be a killer tandem with Cecil/Morales late in games.
scottt - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 07:20 AM EDT (#325746) #
So far Loup has been better than Morales in Buffalo and in TO.
At this point, Morales is Loup's backup. He could also be traded later on for someone who needs bullpen help. He's not gong to provide many innings any way you cut it.

scottt - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#325747) #
The difference between pitching in the pen and starting is like sprinting and long distance running.
It's still running, but the training is different, the routine is different, the strategy is different.

Mike Green - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#325749) #
Pythag has its limitations, no question. A 17-1 victory does not tell you any more about a team than a 10-0 victory; the magnitude of a blowout is of no significance but its frequency is.  The 2016 Blue Jays are 15-7 in blowouts (games decided by 5 runs or more).  They were 37-12 in blowouts last year.  It's a sign of a very good ballclub.
rpriske - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#325752) #
Trading Bautista will never end with him feeling 'jilted' because he has no-trade rights. If he moves it is because he wants to move.
uglyone - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#325753) #
trading bautista for an ok 20yr old prospect this year would be utterly shameful.
Mike Green - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#325754) #
Whether you look at bWAR or fWAR, Donaldson has been the second best position player in the major leagues over the last year and a half (behind Trout).  And it isn't particularly close. 

The move to Toronto has been good for him- his road line didn't change much when he came here, but his home line changed dramatically.  It's hard to pinpoint why precisely although there are some reasonable explanations why he might have benefited more than average from the move to the RC from Oakland. 
uglyone - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#325755) #
to be fair, he was 3rd in fwar in the 2yrs prior to coming to the jays, behind only trout and mccutchen.
Mike Green - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#325756) #
No question.  He certainly was a great player before his arrival here, but he's taken a small step forward since.  He has taken full advantage (and then some) of the move from a poor hitting environment to a good one. 
eudaimon - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#325758) #
It's good to see the team play well even in Bautista's absence. Things seem to be trending upwards. Tulo is now worth 1 WAR on the season according to fangraphs, and has been hitting pretty well since April. Hopefully he's found his groove, as this might count as his first true "hot streak" since he came to TO.

Martin is still worth 0 WAR, but that's a lot better than it was not long ago, and his recent hitting has quelled the reports of his imminent demise (as an above average regular). Replacing Goins with Travis has obviously been a net plus as well.

I think we're primed to go on a little run over these next summer months. There's lots of little things going for us too. Like how we've played a lot more road games than the Orioles or Red Sox so far (seven more road games played than both), meaning we might be better rested down the stretch. Also, we've already played a lot more games against the East.

Hopefully Cecil being back helps the bullpen a bit. I agree that it's near time to cut bait on Storen, and that Biagini deserves a longer leash given his early season success.

Also, I know I've said this before, but I don't see a purpose for Smoak on this team, especially after Bautista comes back.

Mike Green - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#325765) #
There are lots of ways of measuring starting pitcher performance over a season (or a half-season).  One way that I like is to take a 50-50 mix of ERA and xFIP.  Aaron Sanchez leads the league by that measure, just ahead of Chris Sale. 
ISLAND BOY - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#325766) #
I don't mind Smoak. I think Bautista will still want to play outfield if his foot allows it, and Smoak adds some left-handed pop that is lacking except for Michael Saunders, and is a decent fielding first baseman. Speaking of that, Edwin has been making some good plays at first. At the beginning of the season I was thinking that if the Jays were only able to sign one of EE or Bautista, that Bautista might be the best option, but lately I have been leaning more toward Edwin.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#325767) #
Trading Bautista will never end with him feeling 'jilted' because he has no-trade rights. If he moves it is because he wants to move

If Bautista is asked to approve a trade proposal he'll go right out and buy lottery tickets. He'd be out from under the QO.
uglyone - Monday, July 04 2016 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#325768) #
Looking at just 2015 and 2016:

Carrera (29): 357pa, .343bip, 102wrc+, 0.8war/650pa
Smoak (29): 553pa, .277bip, 104wrc+, 0.8war/650pa

not much separating the two, really.

in which case i'd probably look at other considerations such as a) keeping Bautista's toe ligaments off the field, and/or b) which one of pompey/Lake, cola/tellez is more likely to help as depth.
Blue Jays vs. Cleveland - June 30-July 3 | 172 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.