He was so talented, such a fierce competitor, and came across as a genuine role model in terms of his comportment as a man.  What I liked best about him was that he started doing stuff like this in retirement after years and years of being so serious:

Many good memories. Very, very early before he was sent down he had an almost no hitter against Detroit.

I remember that game. One of the announcers said not to expect him to be that good moving forward. I thought he was watching a different game...Halladay’s easy flowing delivery, leg action and big frame was evident and had me convinced he was going to be a horse.

He also disguised how bad the JPR Jays were in most years. As I recall, when Halladay started a game their win rate was almost .700. When he didn’t, it was low. .400s

Halladay loads the bases with a cutter and sinker he's not getting the close calls for which he normally does. He's getting upset.

The infield comes in. Cuddyer or Hunter, Mauer and Morneau are up 1-2-3 bases loaded none out.

Halladay strikes out the side on something ridiculous like 20 pitches. What was the best memory was that before he threw his first pitch after loading the bases he just changed gears mentally. He went from throwing at the corners nibbling 91-92MPH to this:

Curveball, Curveball, Change Up, Fastball or some combination on all three hitters. I remember this vividly because he went from a 12-6 curve to Morneau to a 96MPH fastball to strike him out...it was utter dominance watching as I was a pitcher that had a 96MPH fastball in his arsenal that he wasn't even willing to use because he didn't need to...on most nights.

He did a similar thing against Ortiz and the Red SoX one time when they were sitting on his pitchers and he just busted out a curve and struck out 12+ that night too.

If anyone can find video of that Twins bottom inning I'd be grateful.

With all due respect to Mariano Rivera, I feel cheated that a closer was the first person to achieve 100% in the HOF voting.

Linked to PEDs is the only reason I can think of for not voting for Bonds & Clemens - so it amazes me that Clemens received 2 more votes than Bonds - it would be nice to hear an explanation.

Happy for Halladay & his family, must have been bittersweet.

I used to go see Halladay pitch a lot (like many fans) because he was so much fun to watch. Worked quickly, directly, no BS. Just pitched and pitched brilliantly. Probably best memory of a game was the 1-0 10 inning game against the great Nate Cornejo of the Tigers. Cornejo had one of the worst K rates of any pitcher I've ever seen so tried to get weak contact. He got it then and Halladay always worked quickly so the 10 inning game was just over 2 hours which would have been about 2 innings with Juan Guzman pitching. Halladay had a no hitter until the 8th. In the 9th he gave up back to back singles to start the inning then double play and flyout and inning over. (BTW, just looked up Cornejo's K rate 2.96/9 innings in his career).

Like everybody else here, I'm happy Roy is going to the Hall of Fame yet sad he's not alive to see it.

On Mariano Rivera, I have a quote from November from baseball writer Bill Ballou of the Telegram & Gazette in Worcester, Massachusetts on why he would be abstaining from voting for the HOF this year: " He had a long career, albeit in a role I do not value, a role I equate with a PAT kicker in football or a shootout guy in hockey," Ballou wrote, " Rivera could be the first Hall of Famer elected unanimously. I think I'm right about closers but not so much that I would deny Rivera a chance to be the first unanimous Hall of Famer."

I think closers have a little more value than point-after -touchdown kickers in football, but you'd think there would have been more players elected unanimously before Rivera, like, say, Hank Aaron?( 97.5% ) Or Ken Griffey Jr.? ( 99.32% ) Interesting that Ballou put aside his personal feelings and didn't vote, yet there were a few writers who didn't do this with Aaron and Griffey Jr. who should have been unanimous.

Roy was in many ways the perfect pitcher.

Really unfortunate how his jays career ended.

I have shared this before but my favourite Roy story happened in the booth, while he was pitching... but wasn't really a baseball moment.

Brandy Halladay was in the booth as the leader of the Jays' Wives, promoting a charity auction that was going on during the game. One of the items up for auction was a private pitching clinic with Roy. The bids kept going up and up (I think it went as high as $10k but I admit that I may be inflating that in my memory). Finally one bidder bailed out.

Brandy was ecstatic on behalf of the charity. She then said she would contact the losing bidder and if they would match their highest bid, they would ALSO get a private session.

Buck laughed and asked if she should clear that with Roy. You could almost here her wave her hand as she said, "Oh, he'll do it."

I just loved that. This felt like a real partnership between two equals.

I saw Roy pitch a couple times in Arlington. He was truly amazing. What I remember is hearing the comments in the crowd- the Rangers fans were in awe, they knew their team had no shot against him. It is a shame that he played on some horrible Jays teams. Definitely bittersweet. I don't think we will ever see a pitcher(and quality person)like him again.

I'm happy for Mariano and Edgar, not so much for Mussina but they are all deserving.

Too bad McGriff is off the ballot now, that's definitely a crime right there. He will get in thru the veteran's commitee.

Halladay was, and almost certainly will remain, the only player that I watched play as an adult that kindled in me the same amount of awe, respect and pure admiration that I had for the players I watched as a kid. If grown men are to have heroes, they maybe shouldn't be (or at least be more than) professional athletes, but I looked forward to each start of his with the same excitement I had as a kid in the 1980s, and celebrated every one of his successes with enormous satisfaction. I miss him both for who he was, and what he meant to me.

rpriske I totally remember that moment. I had the same reaction (whipping sound in the background/collar around Doc's neck).

Some more things:

- I live in LA/Orange County for 4 years and Doc didn't get respect. He was just a good pitcher. Then after he would pitch a gem the papers and locals would talk about how the Angels had no chance against that Halladay fella.

- Clayton Kershaw worships Halladay. He has a hung framed jersey of him in his home signed.

- Halladay was a practicing Mormon for his career, like Clayton Kershaw

-Another memory was watching too many games that were can't miss because of Halladay and only Halladay. One year, the Jays were still in contention and there was a "showdown" between the stacked Yankees and Blue Jays. It was Randy Johnson vs Roy Halladay and all we had was Vernon Wells and Eric Hinske who hit a homer off Johnson. If I remember correctly Vernon Wells bobled a ball and we lost that game by a run.

Over at Blue Jays from Away, Mackenzie has an excellent long article comparing Roy's stats to his new starting pitching "colleagues" in the "Hall." Well worth a look.

My response to him there (and it fits here too) is:

Roy, rest in peace. Roy, you're forever in our hearts and forever in the Hall of Fame. You deserve both honours!

Mackenzie that is one impressive tour de force of Roy's place among the greats. Bravo!

Thinking of great Blue Jays pitchers for an old codger like me got me thinking of the Jay's "other" long term "great," Dave Steib.

Here's a career comparison of the two.

Both pitched in the show for 16 years! Dave was 15 years with TO and 1 with CHW. Roy was 12 with the Jays 4 with PHI.

GS: Dave 412, Roy 390. IP: D 2895.1, R 2749.1. BB: D 1034, R 592. SO: D 1669, R 2117. H: D 2572, R 2647. WHIP: D 1.245, R 1.178. H9: D 8.0, R 8.7. HR9: D 0.07, R 0.08. BB9: D 3.2, R 1.9. SO9: D 5.2, R 6.9. SO/W: D 1.61, R 3.58.

Quite the difference in Roy's favour with BB and SO! Still it is sweet that I saw them both for the televised games of so much of their careers.

The Jays have not and may never find his like again. Their attempts are middling at best and unlikely to improve. Pitching wise the picture is not that bright.

As far as my memories of Doc go, there are a few - his near no-hitter vs. Detroit (Damn you Bobby Higginson!) - best part was Brian Williams on CBC not speaking during the bottom of the 9th and letting the action do the talking.

- When I lived in Chicago from 2001-04, I made it a point to see at least one Jays-White Sox game, and if Halladay was slated to start, that was the game I'd see. The internet tells me I would have seen him in 2002 (an 8-4 loss, thanks to the bullpen giving up 6 in 1 1/3 after Doc gave up 2 over 8), and again in 2004, a 4-3 loss. Go figure, he matched up against Buehrle both time. Which leads me to the next memory...

- I was at the Halladay-Buehrle matchup that lasted 1:58, with the Jays winning 2-0 on pair of solo home runs, and no other baserunners. BBRef tells me Doc 'only' went 7 (vs. Buehrle's 8IP complete game).

Funny how I saw him vs. Buehrle 3 times. I also saw a couple of Buehrle-Hudson matchups in my Chicago days. For the life of me, I can't remember if I saw Buehrle pitch as a Jay.

Here's a career comparison of the two.

Interesting comparison. The walk rate differences don’t surprise me, but I would have expected Steib to be closer in SO’s.

PS- Halladay double underlines the difference between JPR and AA. rIccardi was gifted Halladay and wasted him on largely mundane teams. AA realized JB and EE were “gifts” - ie lucky cases of journeymen who became superstars- and worked aggressively to build around them.

And he had no more success than Ricciardi until he traded the farm while the NYY and Red Sox were much less competitive during AA's window.

Halladay tops that figure repeatedly but never ranks higher than 8th in the league.

Good point.

Halladay won't be entering the Hall as a Blue Jay or a Phillie but as a major league player as per the wishes of his family. Given that he retired as a Jay, with a one day contract, you'd think his heart was still in Toronto.

Ultimately the hall of fame itself will decide if he enters the Hall as a Jay, just as Andre Dawson reluctantly was entered in as an Expo despite wanting to enter as a Cub. Regardless, it is my opinion that I have no problem with his family wanting him to be entered unaffiliated. At the end of the day Roy was a great major league baseball player, and his family deserves the trust to make these decisions. It does not change my memories of watching an individual absolutely own his craft, and do so in an extremely professional manner.

Some people seem angry. I am not angry.

I am sad and disappointed.

"And he had no more success than Ricciardi until he traded the farm while the NYY and Red Sox were much less competitive during AA's window."

Apples to oranges given the change in wild-card format and the fact that JP's first four years were limited by "payroll parameters".

If we compare the two GMs during their well resourced periods then this is "numerically" true (I guess).

Average wins for AL East Champs (2005-2009): 97.6

Average wins for AL East champs (2010-2015): 95.7


Also, can we please dispel with the myth that AA "emptied the farm system" for that run?

That narrative is predicated on 1 trade (from 3 years before the playoff run) that led to the acquisition of a cost-controlled Cy Young award winner. It didn't work out, clearly. But it also didn't empty the farm.


The period of "selling the farm" was really from the end of 2014 to August 2015 during which he moved: Graveman, Barreto, Nolin, Norris, Boyd, Labourt, Hoffman, Castro, Tinoco, Rasmussen, Wells, Brentz, Tirado, Cordero, and Lugo

Total WAR since: 8.4

Josh Donaldson had 21.4 on HIS OWN. Hell, Price had 2.7 for 2 months worth of pitching.

My favourite Doc memories are from his first few seasons, his strong debut followed by his complete collapse, demotion to A ball, and re-emergence as an ace.  I was living in Japan at the time so I could only follow him from afar - not quite the amount of online coverage available at the time, and the only MLB I could see was Mariner's games. 

They could stick a MAGA hat on Halladay and I'd still love him, and I totally support his family making the decision they need to make for themselves 

Also, can we please dispel with the myth that AA "emptied the farm system" for that run?

As long as there is sports radio, there shall be angry mythologizing.  It is written. 

Nobody said he traded the farm for "the run" I said he traded the farm. Maybe there's a better way to describe in 3 words how many prospects he traded for veterans over his tenure.

To me, 'trading the farm' implies getting suckered.  I don't know the origin of the phrase, but I betcha Dewey does. 

I think Whiterasta's total WAR since: 8.4 is a pretty succinct description of the talent traded.  A lot of minor leaguers, traded aggressively by the org with the most info on them.  Seems smart to me, and the WAR backs that up.  The nature of running against the perceived (like AA did)  wisdom is that people fixate on your mistakes.  Certainly when you trade prospects, some of them will far exceed their projections.  People still rip on AA for the Yan Gomes deal, as if anyone anywhere thought Yan Gomes was anything more than a throw-in. 

The GM backlash against veterans and towards young, controllable players started towards the end of AA's tenure with the mainstream rise of analytics, and I think he was ahead of the game in recognizing how valuable this approach was.

Maybe the lesson is, don't trade your HOFers.
However, I don't think Doc would be in the hall if the Jays had not traded him.
Not on a first year ballot anyway.
His highest profile games came in the playoffs with the Phillies.

"The period of "selling the farm" was really from the end of 2014 to August 2015 during which he moved: Graveman, Barreto, Nolin, Norris, Boyd, Labourt, Hoffman, Castro, Tinoco, Rasmussen, Wells, Brentz, Tirado, Cordero, and Lugo"

1) You are forgetting about 2013 when he moved Thor, Descalfini, Marisnick, Gomes, Alvarez, D'Arnaud, Hecheveria, and more who combined for about 50 WAR with pre-arbitration costs.
2) People don't realize how bad the Marlins trade was. They moved a bunch of cost controlled young players 4 of whom became major leaguers for some big contracts including one so bad they had to take on an even worse contract and trade talent to move it. You never see these trades done anymore because cheap young talent is very valuable even if it is not elite talent.
3) you are making the mistake of only looking at how trades turned out instead of looking at what value was at the time. With the talent Jays moved, they got absolutely zero long-term core pieces. Who is the best player the Jays traded for now after Donaldson? Many of the players aren't even in baseball.
4) The Jays absolutely gutted the upper minors for their run. At that point, they were right to do so because it was a brief window, but 3 years of going all in every year left the Jays in bad shape long-term and that's pretty undeniable.
5) From 2015-2018, the Jays have the lowest WAR from position players under 27 in all of baseball. From 2013-2018 it's the same. The Jays did not trade for or develop (or traded away) young position player talent. They were a little better at pitching being either 13th or 18th in league at under-27 but overall, the Jays developed less WAR than almost any team in baseball over this period despite having more draft picks than any other team.
6) Look at the team left in 2015. The only young(ish) core players to build around long-term were Stroman and Osuna (a #2 starter and a closer). The Jays had less young talent than maybe any team in baseball.

If you look at AA's record with the Jays, you see some great moves (Donaldson, Wells, draft pick manipulation) some terrible moves (Mets, Marlins trades, terrible drafting after the rules changed) and a lot of in between. They had a great run for three years and it was amazing but there was a long term cost because of how it was done and that's the cost the Jays are paying now.

May I suggest that the Roy Halladay HOF thread might not be the best place for a discussion of AA's moves in 2014 or thereabouts?  We can save that for the Anthopoulos Hall of Fame thread in 2057, if the anthropocene manages to hang on for that long.

This is probably true. Halladay probably falls somewhere between Mussina and Halladay if he didn't get traded to Phils...so probably 2nd or 3rd ballot HOF. Being the only pitcher to do what Don Larson did completely changed his profile.

They had a great run for three years and it was amazing but there was a long term cost because of how it was done and that's the cost the Jays are paying now.

Absolutely. That’s why I disagree with the trouncing the current FO gets from some quarters as they have to rebuild the farm to position for the future. How well they do that is years from becoming clear.

But I also don’t criticize AA for going all in during that narrow window. It was the right thing to do with the JB/EE pot of ”found” gold and a heck of a lot better than wasting a guy like Halladay as JPR did.

Of course, as a Jays fan, I'd love to know there was another Blue Jays cap in the HOF, and certainly it made sense that Halladay's plaque would have one. However, I'm also happy with his family's decision.

I've always had a problem with this "which cap" obsession, and with the expression, "going into the HOF as a [name team here]". A player doesn't go into the hall "as a" member of any team, he goes in as himself - for his full MLB career. Or as Brandy Halladay said, "as a major league player."

And on a cap note, when I went to the HOF website the day of the announcement, I found this article about an outfielder named Clarence whose uniform - and especially his cap - caused a problem for his 1979 Topps card.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/card-corner/1979-topps-clarence-gaston

Thanks for link - that's one bad-ass mustache Cito is rocking for his Padres card.
Sorry for deflecting the conversation away from Roy though - his was definitely the greatest Jays' career I was able to follow from draft to his trade, and Doc Holladay remains a great nickname. 

I never knew the story behind "Cito" until reading JohnL's link. 

Cue Isaac Hayes' Shaft if you're looking at that Cito 1979 card.

For reference, I consider Vladimir Guerrero.
Would I feel better if he had a blank cap rather than an Angels cap?
No, and I don't know if anybody in Montreal would prefer that.
Honoring nobody doesn't honor anybody.
To me, it's a lose-lose choice.

That reminds me, have they gotten rid of the Ted Rogers statue?

Of all the guys AA traded for the 13-16 run who would we have wanted back over who we got? I can think of just one - Noah Syndergaard - 13.2 WAR lifetime, 3 years of control left. RA Dickey gave the Jays 7.3 WAR and a good playoff start (nearly 5 IP 1 ER, then pulled to try to give a win to Price) plus a bad one (vs KC next round). In 2015/16 the years the Jays needed him Thor had 7.4 WAR (most in 2016) so no matter how you cut it that was a bad trade in the end. Happ being traded away might have been a mistake, but he came back after he improved drastically at a reasonable price and it worked out quite well.

Hoffman was a big worry, but he has negative WAR so far, Matt Boyd is a good one (2.1 WAR last year, 3.4 lifetime) but not 'wow', I remember tons of complaints about Liam Hendriks being traded but his lifetime WAR is now at 0.0. Yan Gomes was a mistake to trade (11.7 WAR lifetime, all positive for Cleveland). Travis d'Arnaud lots thought would be great but has just 2.1 WAR lifetime and now is a backup for the Mets.

So outside of Thor and Gomes really it is mostly nothing vital traded away. Gomes was a pure mistake no one saw coming (I think most of us thought he might be a good backup), Thor on the other hand was one of the 3 young guns charging at the time (Sanchez & Stroman the others) and the Mets demanded at least one of them for the guy who won the Cy Young the year before, a reasonable request. If the Jays run was 13/14 instead of 15/16 it would've been an OK trade, but since the Jays didn't do their run until Thor was ready it looks a lot worse.

If that's what "selling the farm" looks like, especially with us having an elite farm again here just a few years later (built around his elite prospect no less), then it sure sounds to me like "selling the farm" is a damn good strategy.

As Anthopoulos himself has suggested, his mistake actually turned out to be not selling enough farm assets. Had he been willing to include Tellez in a trade, he could have had Zobrist and quite possibly a 2015 WS championship.

The mistake of trading Gomes was not something that "nobody saw coming". A few posters here, myself included, stated at the time that it was a mistake. Gomes always had very good batting numbers in the minors, but was never given a shot at a full time role by the Jays. They kept giving him part time work, not recognizing he had the ability to be a full time player, but his results per AB were always very good. After the 2 big seasons he had for Cleveland in 2013/14, he had quite a downturn for 2 seasons or the trade would look much worse than it already does. He did manage to bounce back some in 2017 and then had a good season last year.

"As Anthopoulos himself has suggested, his mistake actually turned out to be not selling enough farm assets. Had he been willing to include Tellez in a trade, he could have had Zobrist and quite possibly a 2015 WS championship."


yep. in hindsight, he should have traded borderline top-100 prospects like Tellez, Pompey, Urena, Pentecost, etc. etc. and we could have had another couple impact players.

Dan, I remember the Gomes deal very differently, although I don'd doubt you having been a fan of his early on.  I think John's right to say nobody saw it coming, or at least, nobody else. 

In my memory, I was Gomes' big fanboy here on the box as I love versatile players and saw him as a corner IF / 3rd catcher type.  He definitely wasn't given enough opportunities in the minors, but he was a real longshot prospect who wasn't considered reliable as a reciever, iirc.  Mostly I recall being disappointed because the 'return' was Esmil Rogers.

Strange, I keep hunting but cannot find the thread from the Gomes/Rogers trade in November 2012. IIRC it was more reported mid-thread for something else but had minimal reaction. If anyone else can find it that'd be great as it is always fun to see how we all reacted at the time of a trade. Saw the Donaldson one and lots of 'woohoo' reactions along with a few 'who knows' 'we might regret this later'. Always someone who is a negative Nancy about every trade/signing out there.

Somebody posted a link to the Gomes trade thread a few weeks ago. I don't remember if it was a separate thread, or part of another one. I certainly wasn't the only one who said the trade was a mistake, although there weren't many. The Jays didn't really see Gomes as a guy who would stick at catcher, and kept using him part time there, part time at 3B, part time at 1B and even in the OF a few times. They just didn't take him seriously as a prospect, and treated him like just another guy who could fill out a roster. In his 4 years in the Jays' minor league system, he got into the following number of games per season: 64, 75, 83, and 79 before he got a brief, 98 AB stint with the Jays. This was despite the fact that he posted OPS numbers of .809, .780, .770, and .938 in those 4 years, and wasn't old, only 21, 22, 23 and 24 at the start of each of those seasons. I found it very strange that a young catcher who could hit like that was getting zero respect as a serious prospect. It seemed pretty obvious to me the guy was at least a decent hitter, and maybe a pretty good one. And he was a catcher. It seemed like a real head scratcher to me. I don't think his hitting in mlb is out of line with his minor league numbers at all - his minor league OPS is .831, and his big league OPS is .719. Of course, there have also been minor league guys who looked to me like they'd project as good big league hitters, and they haven't worked out at all.

I liked quite a few prospects that looked hot to me. A lot did not work out. They were at other positions. M Knecht, M Crouse and B Glen are examples of prospects that looked good. The higher ranking catchers were JPA, AJ Jimenez, T d'Arnaud and C Perez.

JP Arencibia was the top catching prospect at the time. Gomes seemed to be about 6th in line.

Last year D Jansen and R McGuire shared C and got ABs at DH. So their hitting was being developed.

Gomes was producing as good numbers as his competition at C. But did not get extra ABs. He could of, since he was also being groomed for 1B, 3B and DH.

This year the Lansing C position seems overcrowded with H Danner, A Kirk and G Moreno. ABs will be needed as well as C duties for them to develop well. So DH and 1B are possibilities. But how can they properly share the C duties? We will find out in April. And 4 years later who became successful.